Ronnie Hillman's fumble leads to fallout for Broncos

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Rookie running back Ronnie Hillman may not be in the John Fox doghouse, exactly. But he's a long way from the Dove Valley penthouse.

Hillman's first quarter fumble Sunday in the Broncos' 38-3 romp of the Kansas City Chiefs set off a chain of near catastrophic events.

First, right tackle Orlando Franklin got his legs taken out while trying to chase down Kansas City cornerback Brandon Flowers, who was on his way to a 64-yard return. Franklin missed a series but returned.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22289142/ronnie-hillmans-fumble-leads-fallout-broncos

[Northman]

Yea, i was displeased about that and initially thought it was Knowmo. lol

But its good they sat him down and went with the other guys as there has to be a zero tolerance on that kind of shit. Knowmo has learned from it and is taking better care of the ball now and it seemed Ball was doing the same. Just cant have that in the playoffs when we play better competition.

[weazel]

I only have one question... Why did Moreno and Hillman get punished for fumbles but McGahee was never sat for his multiple fumbles this season?

[Northman]

I only have one question... Why did Moreno and Hillman get punished for fumbles but McGahee was never sat for his multiple fumbles this season?

Proabably because he was performing more than them. But, if Moreno keeps playing the way he is Willis wont have it so easy going forward.

[Army Bronco]

I only have one question... Why did Moreno and Hillman get punished for fumbles but McGahee was never sat for his multiple fumbles this season? i wondered that too but i remember that Knowshon missed a huge assignment resulting in a hard sack and he just was not running that well then. McGahee was still running better and making the blocks.

[BroncoWave]

When he fumbled I was screaming for him to be on the bench the rest of the game. I applaud the coaches for doing so. As big of a problem as fumbling has been for this team this year there has to be pretty much a zero-tolerance approach to it.

[Nomad]

One thing these guys have in common is running with the ball exposed in one arm instead of covering with both arms when running through the crowd. Hillman's fumble was also a damn good defensive move by the Chiefs by punching it out.

[G_Money]

Hillman has lost one fumble in 95 touches this year. Moreno lost one in 159 touches. McGahee lost FOUR in 193 touches.

It's not like Hillman is a fumbling machine. I was cool with taking him out for a half, but I wish he'd gotten some run in the second half. I don't want him running scared in the post-season. Hopefully they understand the mentality of their guy, because Hillman could be important in the next few games.

I didn't mind benching him for the half, but I thought the whole game was excessive. Either way, let's hope he's productive and non-fumbling from here out.

~G

[BroncoWave]

Hillman has lost one fumble in 95 touches this year. Moreno lost one in 159 touches. McGahee lost FOUR in 193 touches.

It's not like Hillman is a fumbling machine. I was cool with taking him out for a half, but I wish he'd gotten some run in the second half. I don't want him running scared in the post-season. Hopefully they understand the mentality of their guy, because Hillman could be important in the next few games.

I didn't mind benching him for the half, but I thought the whole game was excessive. Either way, let's hope he's productive and non-fumbling from here out.

~G

I think the amount of fumbles in general is a more telling stat than lost fumbles. Whether or not a fumble is recovered or not is largely due to the luck of where the ball bounces. Now Hillman only has two fumbles total this season, but I have no problem with sending the message the coaches sent. I'm sure he's a big boy and can handle it.

[Nomad]

I'm sure Hillman is a big boy and he's a rookie, so he'll have mistakes. I hope it's not during the playoffs.

[BroncoWave]

I'm sure Hillman is a big boy and he's a rookie, so he'll have mistakes. I hope it's not during the playoffs.

Turnovers could be what kills us in the playoffs. If we can hold onto the ball we should be the favorites to win the Super Bowl. But that's a big if.

[G_Money]

I remember Manning throwing 3 picks in a quarter, and nobody benched him as a lesson. Just sayin - some people may have cost us a game, or threatened to cost us more, but Hillman isn't one of em.

Like I said, I don't mind the lesson: take care of the football. If we can do that on offense and special teams, we've got a shot to have a special playoff run. Hillman just isn't the goat I would make, I guess. I hope we give him his fair share of touches in the playoffs.

~G

[BroncoWave]

I remember Manning throwing 3 picks in a quarter, and nobody benched him as a lesson. Just sayin - some people may have cost us a game, or threatened to cost us more, but Hillman isn't one of em.

Like I said, I don't mind the lesson: take care of the football. If we can do that on offense and special teams, we've got a shot to have a special playoff run. Hillman just isn't the goat I would make, I guess. I hope we give him his fair share of touches in the playoffs.

~G

Cmon G, you're smarter than that. A superstar isn't going to be pulled for turnovers. But for a player like Hillman who is already a marginal player holding onto the ball can be the difference between whether he plays or not.

[Northman]

I remember Manning throwing 3 picks in a quarter, and nobody benched him as a lesson. Just sayin - some people may have cost us a game, or threatened to cost us more, but Hillman isn't one of em.


~G

I knew it wouldnt be long before went to that but again, no running back even compares or plays like Manning. With Manning you always have a shot at coming back from something like that. But for our RB stable its not even close no matter if its McGahee or Hillman.

[zbeg]

I only have one question... Why did Moreno and Hillman get punished for fumbles but McGahee was never sat for his multiple fumbles this season?

It probably has to do with the fact that McGahee is good in pass protection while Hillman is not right now. So Hillman's value comes almost entirely from being able to run the ball. If he fumbles, then he loses that value, too.

McGahee can at least pick up blitzes, so I think he's got a longer leash. And, fairly or unfairly, veterans tend to get longer leashes in general when it comes to these sorts of things.

[SR]

It probably has to do with the fact that McGahee is good in pass protection while Hillman is not right now. So Hillman's value comes almost entirely from being able to run the ball. If he fumbles, then he loses that value, too.

McGahee can at least pick up blitzes, so I think he's got a longer leash. And, fairly or unfairly, veterans tend to get longer leashes in general when it comes to these sorts of things.

He's also Willis McGahee.

[DenBronx]

But why were the even fumbling in the first place? I know fumbles happen from time to time but it seems to be a trend and at the absolute worst moments, redzone for the other team moments! As a proffessional football player, the ABCs of being a good player is to hold on to the damn ball!! I like Coach Fox and his zero tolerance policy, you fumble then you sit.

[MOtorboat]

But why were the even fumbling in the first place? I know fumbles happen from time to time but it seems to be a trend and at the absolute worst moments, redzone for the other team moments! As a proffessional football player, the ABCs of being a good player is to hold on to the damn ball!! I like Coach Fox and his zero tolerance policy, you fumble then you sit.

Denver's fumble ratio was worse last year. Last in the league, actually.

Not great this year, but better than last year, and one of the lowest at the end of the season.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/fumbles-lost-per-game

[DenBronx]

Denver's fumble ratio was worse last year. Last in the league, actually.

Not great this year, but better than last year, and one of the lowest at the end of the season.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/fumbles-lost-per-game

Ouch! Yeah last year we seemed to fumble alot. I think the fumbles that happened earlier in the year was at the worst time in the worst places. I think we gave NE the ball in their own redzone at the 5. I just hope they dont do this in the playoffs. I think last year our WRs were the ones fumbling IIRC.

[OrangeHoof]

I really would like to add Brandon Jacobs next year since the 49ers have cut him loose. McGahee is not exactly durable and Jacobs would be a strong inside threat.

[zbeg]

Ouch! Yeah last year we seemed to fumble alot. I think the fumbles that happened earlier in the year was at the worst time in the worst places. I think we gave NE the ball in their own redzone at the 5. I just hope they dont do this in the playoffs. I think last year our WRs were the ones fumbling IIRC.

Early this year, too. The random unforced DT fumbles made me want to set myself on fire.

[DenBronx]

I really would like to add Brandon Jacobs next year since the 49ers have cut him loose. McGahee is not exactly durable and Jacobs would be a strong inside threat.

It's weird that the 49ers wouldnt even try and use him. Gore hasnt been all that great down the stretch. So makes me wonder, with the reports that he wasnt a good teammate from the NYG and that the 49ers also were sending that vibe then if he would be worth the trouble.

[Chef Zambini]

It's weird that the 49ers wouldnt even try and use him. Gore hasnt been all that great down the stretch. So makes me wonder, with the reports that he wasnt a good teammate from the NYG and that the 49ers also were sending that vibe then if he would be worth the trouble.the 49ers are LOADED with RB talent !
i will just mention that and say nothing about FUMBLING !

[Imabroncofan]

Think the Bronco are into tuff love. Look at what it did for Moreno. "Sit and think about what you did!"

[Simple Jaded]

The 2012 Denver Broncos are the most fumbling-assed team I can remember, they better damn well get in out in front of it. I hate to see this running game with just Knowgain, Hester and Ball, no big play ability in the bunch.......

[MOtorboat]

The Broncos have less fumbles this year than the previous two seasons.

[Ziggy]

Hillman is a one trick pony, and he's not that great at the one trick. The kid can't block to save his life, and put's Manning's health in jeopardy every time he's asked to do it. He's had 85 carries and fumbled twice. While McGahee has fumbled 5 times in 167 carries, you can trust him to pick up the blitz, stay within his assignment, and average over 4 yards per carry- none of which Hillman has been able to do thus far. Hillman is a rook, so he has time to fix these problems. I hope that he works hard in the offseason.

[SR]

Hillman is a one trick pony, and he's not that great at the one trick. The kid can't block to save his life, and put's Manning's health in jeopardy every time he's asked to do it. He's had 85 carries and fumbled twice. While McGahee has fumbled 5 times in 167 carries, you can trust him to pick up the blitz, stay within his assignment, and average over 4 yards per carry- none of which Hillman has been able to do thus far. Hillman is a rook, so he has time to fix these problems. I hope that he works hard in the offseason.

News flash: Hillman is a rookie

[smith49]

Hillman is a one trick pony, and he's not that great at the one trick. The kid can't block to save his life, and put's Manning's health in jeopardy every time he's asked to do it. He's had 85 carries and fumbled twice. While McGahee has fumbled 5 times in 167 carries, you can trust him to pick up the blitz, stay within his assignment, and average over 4 yards per carry- none of which Hillman has been able to do thus far. Hillman is a rook, so he has time to fix these problems. I hope that he works hard in the offseason.

News flash: Hillman is a rookie


A very young rookie. I see no reason to crucify him for a fumble.

[turftoad]

I really would like to add Brandon Jacobs next year since the 49ers have cut him loose. McGahee is not exactly durable and Jacobs would be a strong inside threat.

Not just no but hell no!

[Joel]

Obviously McGahee and Manning have a track record of accomplishments to mitigate turnovers, and a rookie doesn't. In a sense, their greater assets provide a better credit rating so they can afford more debt. It should also be noted that interceptions are roughly three times as common as fumbles (including fumbles by receivers after or quarterbacks before a pass,) so comparing QB turnovers to RB turnovers is comparing apples to oranges. If a teams starting RB fumbles half as often as their starting QB throws a pick, he's a disaster; if the QB has twice as many picks as the RB has fumbles, he protects the ball.

It's mainly an issue of depth; Moreno doesn't have a great history of durability, and I have absolutely zero confidence in Ball as a rusher. I don't want to be back in the scenario where opposing defenses can diagnose our play calls based on whether we put in the back who can block but can't run or the one who can run but can't block.

When we have a late lead in the playoffs, I also don't want 70% of our plays to be passes from our 36 year old QB because we can't trust any of our backs to move the chains without dropping the ball. I was confident enough of the KC game that I spent it watching Peterson come up nine yards short of the single season rushing record (ironically, because his final run for 27 yards transformed a dicey 56 yard field goal attempt for the win into a 20 yard chip shot,) but I'm guessing Osweiler played most of the fourth quarter. Since our starter IS in his last few seasons, it would be awfully nice if we could open a wide lead in a playoff game or two and let the rookie backup get some valuable playoff experience; risk-free opportunities for that are exceptionally rare, and correspondingly precious. If passing is our only hope to prevent a last minute double digit rally, Osweiler will stay on the bench gathering rust.

[DenBronx]

Hillmans a rookie, still learning on the fly so I dont hold anything against him at all.

Moreno on the other hand learned from his mistakes and looks really focused right now. I like what I am seeing from Moreno and hope he steps up big this next game for us. When McGahee comes back I think he still starts but Moreno will deffinitely split carries with him. Keep them both fresh and go with the 1-2 punch. Moreno and McGahee already have a good relationship and I'm sure they don't mind sharing the load or a soon to be SB ring!

[Ziggy]

News flash: Hillman is a rookie

News flash: That was in my post.

[SR]

News flash: That was in my post.

Then lay off the kid a little bit. It's not like he's Ryan Matthews...

[Ziggy]

Relax Red. I don't have anything against Hillman. Like I said in my post, I hope that he works hard in the offseason, because he's young enough to correct his shortcomings if he puts in the time. Right now though, he's a liability in pass blocking, which we cannot afford. Make no mistake, keeping Manning upright is the #1 priority of the offense. Without him, this is nowhere near a 13-3 team with a chance to win it all this season.

[G_Money]

Moreno completely blows blitz pickups or even routine pickups, apparently on a coin-flip basis. "Should I block this guy? ...Tails says no. Out into the flat!" He still gets playing time.

I'm not a huge Hillman guy. I didn't want him in the draft and I still want another back moving forward. I don't think he's got anything like breakaway speed, he's a BIT of a liability in pass protection (though all of our non-Willis backs are, so they don't really have a leg up on him there), and he's a little light in the pants to keep running between the tackles all the time, but I like his vision for seams and cuts, and he loves to go upfield instead of running sideways, which I'm a big fan of. His hands are okay, and as for blitz pickup - who blitzes Manning? Can anybody name me one time where Hillman occupied the wrong gap and got Peyton lit up?

Maybe that's because he's not in on those plays, but we don't tend to keep the back in for blitz pickup anyway in obvious passing situations. *shrugs* I agree, an upright Manning is the only way we win anything, but Hillman's where he needs to be more than Ball, for instance (nobody remembers him standing 7 yards behind Manning instead of being an option in the flat and Manning has to throw a pass toward his own end zone in order to not take a sack?).

What's done is done, and it's not that big a deal. You always punish the rook for dumb mistakes, to help make an impression on him. But Hillman is not a fumbling machine, he's not any worse at blitz pickup than our other backup RBs IMO, he has good vision and he's the fastest back on the team, which means something in the flat and in open space.

I hope to see a decent chunk of him during our playoff run. And I also hope for him and ALL our backs to hold on to the ball.

Also, I hope Marcus Lattimore falls in the draft thanks to his injury and we pick him up on day 3 and cut Ball. While I'm hoping for things... :D

~G

[NightTerror218]

Why has this not been addresses. RBs have fumbled too much this season. Thomas has fixed his problem but RBs still do not cover with two arms like they should.

[BroncoWave]

Why has this not been addresses. RBs have fumbled too much this season. Thomas has fixed his problem but RBs still do not cover with two arms like they should.

It definitely does seem like a coaching thing. It's fixed in RBs all the time. Hopefully Studesville is not becoming too content in his job and not focusing on those little details.

[BroncoWave]

The Broncos have less fumbles this year than the previous two seasons.

I would say Tebow skews that number a bit since he fumbled a lot. I would be much more interested in a comparison of running back fumbles in the last couple of seasons.

[Ravage!!!]

In reality, rarely does any RB in the NFL "cover up" with two arms. Thats something you see in HS, but RBs in the NFL (except on the goalline) are looking for speed. YOu can't run fast while putting both arms on the ball. Now we can try and get into the "this is how it should be" all you want, but even when Coughlin made a big deal by fixing Barber's fumbling problem, he didn't do it by having Barber cover up with both arms/hands.

[Joel]

In reality, rarely does any RB in the NFL "cover up" with two arms. Thats something you see in HS, but RBs in the NFL (except on the goalline) are looking for speed. YOu can't run fast while putting both arms on the ball. Now we can try and get into the "this is how it should be" all you want, but even when Coughlin made a big deal by fixing Barber's fumbling problem, he didn't do it by having Barber cover up with both arms/hands.
I think it's more an issue of when to cover up than if. Nursing a fourth quarter lead, speed to rack up more points is nice, but not losing/giving away points to a team desperately going for the strip is more important. Few NFL backs wrap both hands around the ball much, but in the fourth quarter most of the good ones do.

[weazel]

ducks have webbed feet

[MOtorboat]

I would say Tebow skews that number a bit since he fumbled a lot. I would be much more interested in a comparison of running back fumbles in the last couple of seasons.

Fair enough, 7 in 2011, 9 in 2012.

[Chef Zambini]

moreno looks to cover up with both ARMS when he anticipates contact. he has demonstrated this M.O. since returning to starter . itr hasnt hurt his numbers or productivity.

[Joel]

moreno looks to cover up with both ARMS when he anticipates contact. he has demonstrated this M.O. since returning to starter . itr hasnt hurt his numbers or productivity.
Key phrase highlighted, and 90% of knowing when a back SHOULD protect the ball against a strip or SHOULD pump his arms downfield in a sprintt is experience. Look at Thomas: He nearly turned a long catch and run into a TD until someone he didn't know was there caught him, stripped him and made it a turn OVER instead. On another long catch and run that SHOULD have been a TD he tried to protect the ball by switching hands and did to HIMSELF what he feared from the opponents nowhere near him: Knock the ball out and convert a 7 points into a turnover. That's not a knock on Thomas, but an observation on youth; it's only his third year, but it's been months since he fumbled a long reception. (*touches wood*)

That's probably the biggest difference between Moreno now and Hillman now (or Moreno a year or two ago.) No explanation for McGahee....

[nevcraw]

Hillman is destroying this team.

[Dzone]

Hester has beat Hillman out. People like Hester. Every time he runs they say how good he was at LSU. Plus he runs hard and holds onto the ball.
But honestly, I ll take Hillman. He gives the best chance to break one for 80 yards

[Superchop 7]

Obviously McGahee and Manning have a track record of accomplishments to mitigate turnovers, and a rookie doesn't. In a sense, their greater assets provide a better credit rating so they can afford more debt. It should also be noted that interceptions are roughly three times as common as fumbles (including fumbles by receivers after or quarterbacks before a pass,) so comparing QB turnovers to RB turnovers is comparing apples to oranges. If a teams starting RB fumbles half as often as their starting QB throws a pick, he's a disaster; if the QB has twice as many picks as the RB has fumbles, he protects the ball.

It's mainly an issue of depth; Moreno doesn't have a great history of durability, and I have absolutely zero confidence in Ball as a rusher. I don't want to be back in the scenario where opposing defenses can diagnose our play calls based on whether we put in the back who can block but can't run or the one who can run but can't block.

When we have a late lead in the playoffs, I also don't want 70% of our plays to be passes from our 36 year old QB because we can't trust any of our backs to move the chains without dropping the ball. I was confident enough of the KC game that I spent it watching Peterson come up nine yards short of the single season rushing record (ironically, because his final run for 27 yards transformed a dicey 56 yard field goal attempt for the win into a 20 yard chip shot,) but I'm guessing Osweiler played most of the fourth quarter. Since our starter IS in his last few seasons, it would be awfully nice if we could open a wide lead in a playoff game or two and let the rookie backup get some valuable playoff experience; risk-free opportunities for that are exceptionally rare, and correspondingly precious. If passing is our only hope to prevent a last minute double digit rally, Osweiler will stay on the bench gathering rust.

__________________________________________________ _________________________________________

You need to re-check something.

Lance Ball played very well against K.C.

15 for 66 (4.4) running against 8-9 in the box.

He looked fresh, turned nothing into something.