TSN: Team Report

[TXBRONC]

Here's the latest from the Sporting News.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=300376

Broncos Team Report
Posted: November 5, 2007
Lee Rasizer
For Sporting News

HALFTIME ADJUSTMENTS

The overriding concern as the Broncos hit the second half is their consistent inability to stop the run. Denver, which has consistently ranked last in that category, already has made schematic changes to try and counter the problem. Going against Jim Bates' usual strategic impulses, the Broncos have aligned a safety closer to the line of scrimmage and played more three-deep zone and man-free looks. But even with eight-man fronts, the Broncos still are allowing too much yardage. And the secondary has been left vulnerable without the extra defender back deep, even with solid cover corners. Denver likely will continue to play eight in the box and hope that tackling and gap problems resolve themselves but the issue may be longstanding until personnel issues are addressed this offseason, particularly at outside linebacker and defensive tackle.

Denver's offensive bugaboo has been red-zone scoring. The Broncos have moved the ball well between the 20s but have not run the ball well in close and have been hesitant to put the burden squarely on the shoulders of their young quarterback, Jay Cutler, whose future was clouded when he hurt his left fibula vs. Detroit. Travis Henry was expected to bring a power element inside the tackles near the goal line but has mainly been stifled, largely because Denver's undersized line can't get a solid push in crunch time against bigger, physical fronts. Part of the issue is injuries, with Denver losing two starting offensive linemen in center Tom Nalen and guard Ben Hamilton. So the team will have to bank on improvements from their replacements, Chris Myers and Chris Kuper. Javon Walker's return also will give them another weapon. But the overriding factor is allowing Cutler to cut loose in the red zone -- if he's healthy, of course -- and ditch the conservative approach. And if he does produce, the run game may loosen up some as a result.

Outside of infrequent contributions of Elvis Dumervil, the Broncos' pass rush has lacked bite. It may not get any better now that Jarvis Moss, from whom a second-half surge was anticipated, is gone for the season with a broken right ankle. There will be more pressure on Simeon Rice to produce now that he'll be an active participant and that he and the team agree his surgically repaired shoulder is healthy. But so far Rice has appeared to have lost a step. The Broncos may have to become more blitz-oriented. Champ Bailey and Dre' Bly are the defense's strength and while it's risky to consistently blitz, their ability to handle single-coverage responsibilities has to be put to use for the sake of potential playmaking.

PROJECTION The Broncos appear to be a team headed for a major fall. They've already lost Ebenezer Ekuban, Hamilton, Nalen and Moss for good. Walker has been gone for much of the season. And now Cutler is limping on a bad leg. And given the team's spotty drafting record in recent years, the Broncos simply doesn't possess the depth to make up for those major losses. Factor in Henry's looming suspension, likely in December, and a road-heavy schedule that has them playing five away games in the next seven weeks and Denver could challenge its 1999 team for the worst record under Shanahan, 6-10. If their run defense and red-zone offense improve, a break-even season is possible, which still is well below preseason expectations of a likely wild-card finish behind San Diego.

MIDSEASON GRADES

Offense: C-.
Defense: D.
Special teams: C.
Coaching: C-.
Overall: D+.

[topscribe]

Thanks for the read, TX.

I don't think the article could be much more accurate, especially the comments
about the needs at DT and outside LB. The release of Amon Gordon, even
with their desperate lack of depth there, shows the dearth of talent at that
position. With Adams over the hill, the Broncos have Thomas. That's it. And
he has a ways to go in experience before he realizes his potential. So they are
hurting, big time there.

Gold's tackling can be spelled w-h-i-f-f. And Webster is proving that he is
probably best to keep at MLB. With nothing to lose this season, I would be
sorely tempted to bench Gold and put D.J. over there, where he knows what
he is doing from the start since WLB is his natural position. Webster could be
put back in the middle where it is his natural position, and Beck or Green
could be tried at SAM. Why not, for pity's sake? How much worse can a
team get than the worst in the league at stopping the run.

I long for the good old days when the Broncos were described as "salty
against the run."

-----

[Skinny]

The Broncos may have to become more blitz-oriented. Champ Bailey and Dre' Bly are the defense's strength and while it's risky to consistently blitz, their ability to handle single-coverage responsibilities has to be put to use for the sake of potential playmaking.Yeah ... I was hoping Bates would had done this sooner.

[TXBRONC]

Yeah ... I was hoping Bates would had done this sooner.

The only problem is the secondary has already gotten burned a few times.

[Medford Bronco]

The only problem is the secondary has already gotten burned a few times.

case in point the Green Bay game :tsk:

top I agree with you I miss the days of being stout against the run
and okay against the pass. Wasnt that the type of defense we had in 97 and 98 that won Super Bowls.?

our LBs were awesome.
Hate him or not Romanoski was a sicko, Mobley was asesome, Seth Joyner and even special teamer Glen Cadrez was good.

Line was very stout against the run with Trevor Pryce, Keith Traylor and Neil Smith, whom I thought was the final piece to the puzzle of us winning

the corners were not bad with Braxton and Darrien Gordon but far from Bailey at least..So you can win without a shutdown corner if your front 7 is good

hint hint Mike Shanahan

ahhhh the good old days. seem like a million years ago :sad:

[TXBRONC]

case in point the Green Bay game :tsk:

top I agree with you I miss the days of being stout against the run
and okay against the pass. Wasnt that the type of defense we had in 97 and 98 that won Super Bowls.?

our LBs were awesome.
Hate him or not Romanoski was a sicko, Mobley was asesome, Seth Joyner and even special teamer Glen Cadrez was good.

Line was very stout against the run with Trevor Pryce, Keith Traylor and Neil Smith, whom I thought was the final piece to the puzzle of us winning

the corners were not bad with Braxton and Darrien Gordon but far from Bailey at least..So you can win without a shutdown corner if your front 7 is good

hint hint Mike Shanahan

ahhhh the good old days. seem like a million years ago :sad:

Braxton was a safety. Ray Crockett was the other starting cornerback.

[SBboundBRONCOS]

the thing is, watching the broncos games i never really noticed anything tricky in the pass rush, its usually beat the guy in front of you straight up thats it. then i watch good defenses and they have DT and DE running in their gaps but on another play they wil stunt or the DE will make a move inside the DT and effectively get to the QB. the thing is they never know where they will go.

i dont understand why we dont play penetration on the DL. force that OLman in front of you to hold and get a penalty or show him you will make him miss and lay out that QB hes trying to protect. also if the OL doesnt have to worry about penetration from the DL that means they can quickly move to the second level and get on our LBs knowing that our DT will not catch the RB when on an outside run.

just what ive noticed but then agian i only get one chance to watch a game around here. am i correct or completely wrong . . . .anybody know??


just to go along with what i was saying, we are just too damn predictable in all phases of this game and we need changes on all sides of the ball including special teams

[BFI]

The only problem is the secondary has already gotten burned a few times.

That's going to happen. Because the run is so bad, our corners are playing the run first.
Even the best corners in the league will get burned if the QB has all day to throw the ball.

Notice the only game we got more turnovers than we lost, we also got an INT? Our blitzing disrupted Big Bens timing, and he under threw the ball, and Dre got a great INT.

Since then, we've had no blitzing, minimal sacks, and our corners got burned by one of the best QB's in the league (Favre). In OT, he had all day to throw the ball. The line had no pressure on him.

I'd say this articile is pretty accurate. I hate to read this about my Broncos...but there it is. We didnt expect this--no one did--

Now I am just going to to watch Cutler develop and hope his injuries are kept to a minimum.

[Medford Bronco]

Braxton was a safety. Ray Crockett was the other starting cornerback.

my bad TX, wasnt Braxton a CB earlier in his career?

[TXBRONC]

my bad TX, wasnt Braxton a CB earlier in his career?


Yes, when Denver had him his go around he was a starting cornerback. In fact he was starter the year we got our heads handed to us by the 49ers in the Super Bowl.

[TXBRONC]

Thanks for the read, TX.

I don't think the article could be much more accurate, especially the comments
about the needs at DT and outside LB. The release of Amon Gordon, even
with their desperate lack of depth there, shows the dearth of talent at that
position. With Adams over the hill, the Broncos have Thomas. That's it. And
he has a ways to go in experience before he realizes his potential. So they are
hurting, big time there.

Gold's tackling can be spelled w-h-i-f-f. And Webster is proving that he is
probably best to keep at MLB. With nothing to lose this season, I would be
sorely tempted to bench Gold and put D.J. over there, where he knows what
he is doing from the start since WLB is his natural position. Webster could be
put back in the middle where it is his natural position, and Beck or Green
could be tried at SAM. Why not, for pity's sake? How much worse can a
team get than the worst in the league at stopping the run.

I long for the good old days when the Broncos were described as "salty
against the run."

-----

I think D.J. anchoring the middle, in fact I would rather we keep D.J. there insteading of moving him. That being said replacing Webster might not be a bad idea.

[topscribe]

I think D.J. anchoring the middle, in fact I would rather we keep D.J. there insteading of moving him. That being said replacing Webster might not be a bad idea.

I have no doubts D.J. will be a find MLB. He has all the talent and athletic
ability, and Bates reported that he is exceptionally smart. However, a
desperate weakness exists beside him at WILL, IMO.

The problem is, if they are to simply replace Webster, with whom do they
replace him? He came to the Broncos with the résumé of a capable starting
middle linebacker. Because he has not apparently excelled at SAM does not
mean he is not good at his natural position.

We know D.J. is good at WILL. We know, or at least many of us believe, Gold
is not. I would just like to see how Webster and MLB, D.J. at WLB, and
perhaps Beck at SLB would work out. Wouldn't be much worse than it has,
would it?

-----

[TXBRONC]

I have no doubts D.J. will be a find MLB. He has all the talent and athletic
ability, and Bates reported that he is exceptionally smart. However, a
desperate weakness exists beside him at WILL, IMO.

The problem is, if they are to simply replace Webster, with whom do they
replace him? He came to the Broncos with the résumé of a capable starting
middle linebacker. Because he has not apparently excelled at SAM does not
mean he is not good at his natural position.

We know D.J. is good at WILL. We know, or at least many of us believe, Gold
is not. I would just like to see how Webster and MLB, D.J. at WLB, and
perhaps Beck at SLB would work out. Wouldn't be much worse than it has,
would it?

-----

I wasn't very impressed with Webster in the middle last year when he replaced Wilson. I don't don't think it would be a good idea to move him back to WILL.

Why not try our Wilborn and Holdman at SAM and WILL?

[topscribe]

I wasn't very impressed with Webster in the middle last year when he replaced Wilson. I don't don't think it would be a good idea to move him back to WILL.

Why not try our Wilborn and Holdman at SAM and WILL?

I was never impressed with the reports on Holdman from camp, via Kaylore
and SoCal. I've heard good things about Wilborn and Beck. However, we heard
some pretty good things about Webster, too.

Thing about it is, Webster had not started with our scheme at the time, which
may have hurt his performance in replacing Wilson. But that also does not
bode well for any kind of change now, does it?

Guess the Broncos are just pretty much stuck for the remainder of this year.

-----

[Lonestar]

case in point the Green Bay game :tsk:

top I agree with you I miss the days of being stout against the run
and okay against the pass. Wasnt that the type of defense we had in 97 and 98 that won Super Bowls.?

our LBs were awesome.
Hate him or not Romanoski was a sicko, Mobley was asesome, Seth Joyner and even special teamer Glen Cadrez was good.

Line was very stout against the run with Trevor Pryce, Keith Traylor and Neil Smith, whom I thought was the final piece to the puzzle of us winning

the corners were not bad with Braxton and Darrien Gordon but far from Bailey at least..So you can win without a shutdown corner if your front 7 is good

hint hint Mike Shanahan

ahhhh the good old days. seem like a million years ago :sad:


Not so sure that price was playing much I think he only played in a handfull of games.. had couple of sacks. That was all before his fat contract and recording studio.

[TXBRONC]

Not so sure that price was playing much I think he only played in a handfull of games.. had couple of sacks. That was all before his fat contract and recording studio.

In his rookie year he played in eight games. His second season he played in all sixteen and racked up 8 1/2 sacks.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/3916/career

[Retired_Member_001]

I was never impressed with the reports on Holdman from camp, via Kaylore
and SoCal. I've heard good things about Wilborn and Beck. However, we heard
some pretty good things about Webster, too.

Thing about it is, Webster had not started with our scheme at the time, which
may have hurt his performance in replacing Wilson. But that also does not
bode well for any kind of change now, does it?

Guess the Broncos are just pretty much stuck for the remainder of this year.

-----

In my opinion, Webster was horrible against the 49ers. He didn't do well at all, he couldn't tackle, he looked stiff, almost like he was actually playing injured. Actually that's pretty much how he is playing now. I would rather keep D.J. in the MLB position so he can learn.

No one has really heard of Jordan Beck so it would be hard to judge him. I wouldn't mind giving Jame Winborn a chance though, he's done pretty well in the past.

[topscribe]

In my opinion, Webster was horrible against the 49ers. He didn't do well at all, he couldn't tackle, he looked stiff, almost like he was actually playing injured. Actually that's pretty much how he is playing now. I would rather keep D.J. in the MLB position so he can learn.

No one has really heard of Jordan Beck so it would be hard to judge him. I wouldn't mind giving Jame Winborn a chance though, he's done pretty well in the past.

Yes, I remember the 49ers game. But that was one game. Maybe he was
injured. Who knows? :noidea:

I do know, however, that he has played before in the NFL with good results.
So I am not so persuaded by one's performance in one single game. D.J.
himself was pretty bad at the position during the first couple games. I still
would like to see more of Webster at the position.

Regarding Beck, you can say no one has heard of him. Obviously, those in
the FO have heard of him, else they would not have signed him. Nonetheless,
you don't want to deny a player a chance because you've never heard of
him, do you? Who all had heard of Rod Smith? Karl Mecklenberg? I would say
it's a good thing they weren't denied because they were relative unknowns,
wouldn't you?

The point I was making, however, was that, when it gets to the point where
it is not going to get any worse if you try something, then you might as well
try it. Some kind of shake-up is needed, that's for sure.

-----

[Lonestar]

In his rookie year he played in eight games. His second season he played in all sixteen and racked up 8 1/2 sacks.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/3916/career

playing is 8 games does not mean starting in those games and even if he started he was rotated in and out like mikey has done for ever.

yes he played and yes he got 8.5 sacks the next year.. he is a gifted player that we never got full potential out of once he got his FAT contract. That is a fact he was one of those players that needed to be called out to get his mind in the game once he started his record business it certainly was not on the football field all the time..

Just another example of a failed scouting system or lack of coaching IMO

[Lonestar]

Yes, I remember the 49ers game. But that was one game. Maybe he was
injured. Who knows? :noidea:

I do know, however, that he has played before in the NFL with good results.
So I am not so persuaded by one's performance in one single game. D.J.
himself was pretty bad at the position during the first couple games. I still
would like to see more of Webster at the position.

Regarding Beck, you can say no one has heard of him. Obviously, those in
the FO have heard of him, else they would not have signed him. Nonetheless,
you don't want to deny a player a chance because you've never heard of
him, do you? Who all had heard of Rod Smith? Karl Mecklenberg? I would say
it's a good thing they weren't denied because they were relative unknowns,
wouldn't you?

The point I was making, however, was that, when it gets to the point where
it is not going to get any worse if you try something, then you might as well
try it. Some kind of shake-up is needed, that's for sure.-----

If I were Pat it would start with mikey!!

[TXBRONC]

playing is 8 games does not mean starting in those games and even if he started he was rotated in and out like mikey has done for ever.

yes he played and yes he got 8.5 sacks the next year.. he is a gifted player that we never got full potential out of once he got his FAT contract. That is a fact he was one of those players that needed to be called out to get his mind in the game once he started his record business it certainly was not on the football field all the time..

Just another example of a failed scouting system or lack of coaching IMO

I didn't say it was the same thing besides that Jr you didn't say anything about starting you commentment he played in a handful of games I simple shared how many. Anyone who has wathced during Shanahan's tenure knows that Pryce didn't start during his rookie season.

Jr I really don't see where you are anywhere near qualifed to say anything failed scouting and coaching since you have never done either professionally at any level.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Jr really don't see where you are anywhere near qualifed to say anything failed scouting and coaching since you have never done either professionally at any level.

I think anyone who watches the Broncos can observe that simple fact though. Our scouting has been ridiculous, and the qualifications needed to come up with a profile (scouting report) on a player is absolutely ludicrous.

[Retired_Member_001]

Yes, I remember the 49ers game. But that was one game. Maybe he was
injured. Who knows? :noidea:

I do know, however, that he has played before in the NFL with good results.
So I am not so persuaded by one's performance in one single game. D.J.
himself was pretty bad at the position during the first couple games. I still
would like to see more of Webster at the position.

Regarding Beck, you can say no one has heard of him. Obviously, those in
the FO have heard of him, else they would not have signed him. Nonetheless,
you don't want to deny a player a chance because you've never heard of
him, do you? Who all had heard of Rod Smith? Karl Mecklenberg? I would say
it's a good thing they weren't denied because they were relative unknowns,
wouldn't you?

The point I was making, however, was that, when it gets to the point where
it is not going to get any worse if you try something, then you might as well
try it. Some kind of shake-up is needed, that's for sure.

-----

The thing with Webster is, when a player is so bad at one linebacker position, I don't think moving him is going to make THAT much of a difference. I'm not saying it's not going to make a difference because we all know that moving a MLB to any OLB position is hard, but Webster is so bad, it would truly take a miracle for him to be good enough.

As for Jordan Beck, it's not that I don't want to deny him a chance. I was merely saying, I don't know who he is so I can't judge. To be honest none of us really know who he is so none of us can judge.

And I agree with Jrwiz, let's start the shake-up with Shanny.

[TXBRONC]

The thing with Webster is, when a player is so bad at one linebacker position, I don't think moving him is going to make THAT much of a difference. I'm not saying it's not going to make a difference because we all know that moving a MLB to any OLB position is hard, but Webster is so bad, it would truly take a miracle for him to be good enough.

As for Jordan Beck, it's not that I don't want to deny him a chance. I was merely saying, I don't know who he is so I can't judge. To be honest none of us really know who he is so none of us can judge.

And I agree with Jrwiz, let's start the shake-up with Shanny.

So you're saying fire Shanahan? That would be mistake in my opinion.

[topscribe]

The thing with Webster is, when a player is so bad at one linebacker position, I don't think moving him is going to make THAT much of a difference. I'm not saying it's not going to make a difference because we all know that moving a MLB to any OLB position is hard, but Webster is so bad, it would truly take a miracle for him to be good enough.

As for Jordan Beck, it's not that I don't want to deny him a chance. I was merely saying, I don't know who he is so I can't judge. To be honest none of us really know who he is so none of us can judge.

And I agree with Jrwiz, let's start the shake-up with Shanny.

Well, you may be right about Webster, Wook. But you know that D.J. was
really bad his first couple games at MIKE. Just because a player isn't good
at one position doesn't necessarily mean he won't be at another. And those
two positions are very different.

Regarding Shanny, I don't agree. He has had busts, yes, but so has everyone
else in the NFL. Shanny has loaded the team with tremendous talent. I
shouldn't have to name names all over again. Only two positions are hurting
for talent: DT and LB. The LB position isn't all his fault: He could not forsee
Wilson's injury, which decimated the LB corps.

I am quite impatient with Shanny at DT, and I hope Bates has enough
influence to get some talent into here. With the Broncos' tremendous
defensive backfield, if they can reasonably stuff the run, the Broncos will be
a juggernaut once again. That is all it will take.

IMHO.

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Only two positions are hurting
for talent: DT and LB. The LB position isn't all his fault: He could not forsee
Wilson's injury, which decimated the LB corps.

I think it'd be apt to throw the offensive line, running back (when Henry gets suspended, and he will) and safety into the mix as well.

[topscribe]

I think it'd be apt to throw the offensive line, running back (when Henry gets suspended, and he will) and safety into the mix as well.

Well, it depends on how they shape up the rest of the year, IMO. I believe
Myers' and Kupers' only problems are maturity and experience. They definitely
are getting that right now. I am still on the fence about Pears, and I think
Holland needs a one-way ticket out of town after the season. But, especially
if Nalen and Hamilton come back and Lepsis regains 100%, the Broncos will
have an exceptional line. But I realize that's a lot of IFs.

I also like Young's speed, quickness, and power. We might get a chance to
see him, too, as starter, and I think he will surprise.

I agree with safety depth, although I have a higher opinion of Abdullah than
you. I like his speed, range, size, and strength. However, outside him, they
are all quite old, and it is time to think of replacements and depth. Next to
DT, I believe that is the most urgent position, don't you?

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Well, it depends on how they shape up the rest of the year, IMO. I believe
Myers' and Kupers' only problems are maturity and experience. They definitely
are getting that right now. I am still on the fence about Pears, and I think
Holland needs a one-way ticket out of town after the season. But, especially
if Nalen and Hamilton come back and Lepsis regains 100%, the Broncos will
have an exceptional line. But I realize that's a lot of IFs.

I'm under the impression that Hamilton will never play football again. I think it's in his best interest to save his life, and live a good one with his family. You already know I don't like Pears and Holland. My problem isn't with either of the Chris' - it's with those two. If Pears and Holland get axed and Hamilton retires (which is probable) we will need some more bodies. I'd just prefer to get in some younger talent on the line than we have now. Jay needs all the protection he can get. I'd start with drafting good, young offensive lineman.


I also like Young's speed, quickness, and power. We might get a chance to see him, too, as starter, and I think he will surprise.

I think Selvin serves a great role as a third-down option, a check-down option and a change of pace sort of back. You can already see that during games after about 5-7 plays consecutively he's out of it. I do not hold him in as high regard as most people do, considering he hasn't done enough to merit it. He couldn't stay healthy in college, and couldn't be the option for the Longhorns. I do not expect him to be able to show that in the NFL, where the games are tougher and the boys are bigger.


I agree with safety depth, although I have a higher opinion of Abdullah than you. I like his speed, range, size, and strength.

He's only played three games this season. He's a special teams guy. I put him in the same line of thought as players like Triandos Luke, BJ Johnson, Corey Jackson, etc. Feel good stories, players that get a little "rep" from veterans and then the media goes of with it. I think we're in dire need there.


However, outside him, they are all quite old, and it is time to think of replacements and depth. Next to DT, I believe that is the most urgent position, don't you?

I think Denver is up a creek without a paddle at a lot of positions.

For long-term starters, I think that defensive tackle and safety probably head the list. However, I think linebacker is just as big of a need. I think our offensive line could use some help as well. When Henry gets axed (and he will since he will be suspended, and if we don't get rid of him - Shanahan is a hypocrite, and ridiculous at the same time) we'll have some worries there considering Young has never carried a full load in college.

Defensive tackle, safety, linebacker, offensive line (tackle or guard) and running back will all be needing new starters. Pretty sad.

[topscribe]

I'm under the impression that Hamilton will never play football again. I think it's in his best interest to save his life, and live a good one with his family. You already know I don't like Pears and Holland. My problem isn't with either of the Chris' - it's with those two. If Pears and Holland get axed and Hamilton retires (which is probable) we will need some more bodies. I'd just prefer to get in some younger talent on the line than we have now. Jay needs all the protection he can get. I'd start with drafting good, young offensive lineman.

That's why I admitted I was going on the presumption of a lot of "ifs."
Regardless if what I said, I am a bit worried about the OL.


I think Selvin serves a great role as a third-down option, a check-down option and a change of pace sort of back. You can already see that during games after about 5-7 plays consecutively he's out of it. I do not hold him in as high regard as most people do, considering he hasn't done enough to merit it. He couldn't stay healthy in college, and couldn't be the option for the Longhorns. I do not expect him to be able to show that in the NFL, where the games are tougher and the boys are bigger.I believe Young has already done a lot to shed the "scat back," "third-down
option" jacket in his performance. The dude likes to hit, and the defenders
he's faced know that by now. And I haven't seen this 5-7 play thing. I did
see his durability in the last couple games. He did a lot to quell that
assumption, too. Regarding his being injured, it was called a broken ankle.
Henry is the one who has been repeatedly injured. I will go so far as to say
that I believe Young has a bigger upside than Henry. Before you jump too
hard on me, you might recall our encounter about another Henry . . . you
know, the one who has made highlights recently for the Titans?


He's only played three games this season. He's a special teams guy. I put him in the same line of thought as players like Triandos Luke, BJ Johnson, Corey Jackson, etc. Feel good stories, players that get a little "rep" from veterans and then the media goes of with it. I think we're in dire need there.You might, but Lynch and Bates obviously do not. The Broncos are in need
at safety, yes, but that is because of the ages of Lynch and Ferguson.
Abdullah can't play both positions at the same time.


I guess I just view the glass as half-full. :coffee:

-----

[Retired_Member_001]

So you're saying fire Shanahan? That would be mistake in my opinion.

Why would that be a mistake?

Considering we could get any Head coach we wanted I don't view it as a mistake. You can't deny he is losing it.

[Retired_Member_001]

Well, you may be right about Webster, Wook. But you know that D.J. was
really bad his first couple games at MIKE. Just because a player isn't good
at one position doesn't necessarily mean he won't be at another. And those
two positions are very different.

Regarding Shanny, I don't agree. He has had busts, yes, but so has everyone
else in the NFL. Shanny has loaded the team with tremendous talent. I
shouldn't have to name names all over again. Only two positions are hurting
for talent: DT and LB. The LB position isn't all his fault: He could not forsee
Wilson's injury, which decimated the LB corps.

I am quite impatient with Shanny at DT, and I hope Bates has enough
influence to get some talent into here. With the Broncos' tremendous
defensive backfield, if they can reasonably stuff the run, the Broncos will be
a juggernaut once again. That is all it will take.

IMHO.

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They are different positions yes, but Webster looks so bad that it seems he is just not a talented athlete. Another thing is that the MIKE position requires someone mentally strong, something Webster hasn't proven. Atleast D.J Williams is a joker, Webster doesn't posses any sort of skill a leader requires. You never see Webster guiding his teammates on the field, never making little adjustments, never talking to his teammates, all he does is stand there waiting to miss a tackle.

Shanahan is a terrible GM but we've always been able to say " But he's a great coach though." I don't think we can say that anymore, some of his play calls are just hideous. I think especially Cutler would appreciate a change in head coach, in interviews you can tell he is fustrated with the play calling.

[Retired_Member_001]

I'm under the impression that Hamilton will never play football again. I think it's in his best interest to save his life, and live a good one with his family. You already know I don't like Pears and Holland. My problem isn't with either of the Chris' - it's with those two. If Pears and Holland get axed and Hamilton retires (which is probable) we will need some more bodies. I'd just prefer to get in some younger talent on the line than we have now. Jay needs all the protection he can get. I'd start with drafting good, young offensive lineman.

I think me and you are the biggest haters of Pears and Holland on this messageboard Dream. Some people here actually think they are "average" ;) . I know your not too keen on Faneca or Jake Scott (not that I agree with you) but I'd still love it if we brought in Sam Baker type talent in the first and then a good G in the 3rd.

I don't think Hamilton will every play again either, I was not a fan of the guy but it's sad to hear he's had such a bad concussion.

[topscribe]

They are different positions yes, but Webster looks so bad that it seems he is just not a talented athlete. Another thing is that the MIKE position requires someone mentally strong, something Webster hasn't proven. Atleast D.J Williams is a joker, Webster doesn't posses any sort of skill a leader requires. You never see Webster guiding his teammates on the field, never making little adjustments, never talking to his teammates, all he does is stand there waiting to miss a tackle.

Shanahan is a terrible GM but we've always been able to say " But he's a great coach though." I don't think we can say that anymore, some of his play calls are just hideous. I think especially Cutler would appreciate a change in head coach, in interviews you can tell he is fustrated with the play calling.

In Webster, you just described Williams of last year. Williams was so-so at
SAM (probably from disinterest), so much so that people right on all these
football boards used the term "bust" in reference to him. When he assumed
the MIKE position, Wiliams admitted that he had not been one of the obvious
leaders on the team. It has been only since his assuming the middle position
that he has looked like a leader.

Frankly, I do not see Webster "standing there" at any time in a game. And
it is not Webster's duty to "make little adjustments" in his teammates. That
is Williams' duty . . . something Williams did not do last year.

You mentioned Shanny's play-calling. Does he or Heimerdinger call the bulk
of the plays? Nonetheless, I don't see a whole lot wrong with the calls,
other than maybe opening it up in the red zone. Execution of those plays is
where I see the deficiencies.

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[Retired_Member_001]

In Webster, you just described Williams of last year. Williams was so-so at
SAM (probably from disinterest), so much so that people right on all these
football boards used the term "bust" in reference to him. When he assumed
the MIKE position, Wiliams admitted that he had not been one of the obvious
leaders on the team. It has been only since his assuming the middle position
that he has looked like a leader.

Difference is that Williams was 24 last season which means he had plenty of time to mature and learn. Nate Webster is 30 this month, which doesn't leave him with much time to learn and mature.


Frankly, I do not see Webster "standing there" at any time in a game. And it is not Webster's duty to "make little adjustments" in his teammates. That
is Williams' duty . . . something Williams did not do last year.

You could AT TIMES see Williams showing some leadership skills and I wouldn't call Williams play last year "disinterested". He was a good Linebacker last year, not Pro Bowl material but good. He was inconsistent at times, but he is young and has worked on it.


You mentioned Shanny's play-calling. Does he or Heimerdinger call the bulk of the plays? Nonetheless, I don't see a whole lot wrong with the calls, other than maybe opening it up in the red zone. Execution of those plays is where I see the deficiencies.

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Shanahan's a control freak. I'm pretty sure Shanahan calls most of the major plays. I see alot wrong with the calls, they are all SUPER conservative. It's like Shanahan thinks we have Ryan Leaf at Quarterback or something.

[topscribe]

Difference is that Williams was 24 last season which means he had plenty of time to mature and learn. Nate Webster is 30 this month, which doesn't leave him with much time to learn and mature.



You could AT TIMES see Williams showing some leadership skills and I wouldn't call Williams play last year "disinterested". He was a good Linebacker last year, not Pro Bowl material but good. He was inconsistent at times, but he is young and has worked on it.



Shanahan's a control freak. I'm pretty sure Shanahan calls most of the major plays. I see alot wrong with the calls, they are all SUPER conservative. It's like Shanahan thinks we have Ryan Leaf at Quarterback or something.

Well, Wook, you make some good arguments, except on the play-calling.

First, you are making your own assumption on whether Shanny calls the
plays, based on your own opinion of him as a "control freak." Just your use
of that moniker toward him shows you are losing your objectivity regarding
him. I would need more evidence than that to discover who makes the calls.

Second, I'm not sure what you mean by "conservative." It is a fact that the
most recent statistics on play-calling shows that the Broncos have passed
60% of the time, as opposed to 40% running.

As I mentioned, I would like to see them open it up in the red zone a little
more, especially while those young interior linemen are at a disadvantage
against the veteran behemoths across from them. I remember how Jake
would roll out on an option at the goal line, and the defenders did not know
whether to play his run or pass. I think Jay could be just as good in doing
that.

It still boils down to execution. Any play is the wrong play if they don't
execute, isn't it?

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[Retired_Member_001]

Well, Wook, you make some good arguments, except on the play-calling.

First, you are making your own assumption on whether Shanny calls the
plays, based on your own opinion of him as a "control freak." Just your use
of that moniker toward him shows you are losing your objectivity regarding
him. I would need more evidence than that to discover who makes the calls.

Second, I'm not sure what you mean by "conservative." It is a fact that the
most recent statistics on play-calling shows that the Broncos have passed
60% of the time, as opposed to 40% running.

As I mentioned, I would like to see them open it up in the red zone a little
more, especially while those young interior linemen are at a disadvantage
against the veteran behemoths across from them. I remember how Jake
would roll out on an option at the goal line, and the defenders did not know
whether to play his run or pass. I think Jay could be just as good in doing
that.

It still boils down to execution. Any play is the wrong play if they don't
execute, isn't it?

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Thank you Topscribe.

Shanahan likes to have control of everything, in the end Shanahan get's the last word in on everything. I know because I've heard him say it. I would imagine Shanahan get's the last word on atleast some of the plays.

As for the play calling it doesn't matter if they passed 100% of the time, they are conservative passes.

As for the red zone, I completely agree. Shanahan is trying to smash the ball into the endzone with unexperienced and underweight lineman (not that I have a problem with their weight). Shanahan should try and be more creative in the end zone, a roll out option would be great especially since Cutler can run. Throw a couple of play action passes or ANYTHING different from what we are doing at the moment, it's too predictable.

[Retired_Member_001]

It still boils down to execution. Any play is the wrong play if they don't
execute, isn't it?

I just wanted to come back to this.

Yes but it's a head coach's job to get the most out of his players. We have a young Quarterback, some young offensive lineman, a rookie runningback some of the time (Selvin Young) and young receivers (minus The Sloth Machine), Shanahan is the one with 13 years of head coach experience. Shanahan should do better, I really don't mean to blame everything on Shanahan, but it's true.

[topscribe]

I just wanted to come back to this.

Yes but it's a head coach's job to get the most out of his players. We have a young Quarterback, some young offensive lineman, a rookie runningback some of the time (Selvin Young) and young receivers (minus The Sloth Machine), Shanahan is the one with 13 years of head coach experience. Shanahan should do better, I really don't mean to blame everything on Shanahan, but it's true.

Forgive me for not keeping up, but who is "The Sloth Machine"?

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[Retired_Member_001]

Forgive me for not keeping up, but who is "The Sloth Machine"?

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Imagine if someone really was called the Sloth machine. :laugh:

It's hard to tell if your joking or not so I'll just assume not. Brandon Stokley's nickname is " The Slot Machine", I made a typo.

[topscribe]

:laugh:

It's hard to tell if your joking or not so I'll just assume not. Brandon Stokley's nickname is " The Slot Machine", I made a typo.

I thought you were prepared to say you don't like Stokley.

I was about to jump all over you over that one. :ahhhhh:

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[Retired_Member_001]

I thought you were prepared to say you don't like Stokley.

I was about to jump all over you over that one. :ahhhhh:

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:laugh:

Stokley is a brilliant receiver.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Before you jump too
hard on me, you might recall our encounter about another Henry . . . you
know, the one who has made highlights recently for the Titans?

You mean the same Chris Henry who is going to be suspended for substance abuse? Maybe it's a "Henry" thing? Two Chris Henry's and a Travis Henry. Nothing that special.


You might, but Lynch and Bates obviously do not. The Broncos are in need at safety, yes, but that is because of the ages of Lynch and Ferguson.
Abdullah can't play both positions at the same time.

I couldn't care less what Lynch, Bates or any coaches have to say about many particular players. Most coaches do the "PC" thing and don't publicly criticize people who are under performing. That's what they do at the end of the year meetings with each player, and is probably one of the reasons why Ian Gold will not be a Denver Bronco next year and that Gerard Warren was traded before the season started.

Triandos Luke, Corey Jackson and BJ Johnson were also hyped by players, coaches and the media. Look what happened to them.


I guess I just view the glass as half-full. :coffee:

As if I don't? I made a nice big post on Broncomania the other day regarding how much the Broncos have to look forward to with the amount of youth they have on the team.

Denver's in dire need of a brand new group of safties, every single one of them will need to be replaced by the end of the year. It's too bad this is a poor draft class for safeties, but I hope Denver finds somebody. This is the one position they ALWAYS ignore in the draft and it's beyond me. Most teams are placing a high premium on safeties these days because many of them in college can come in and contribute right away. Denver seems to think that picking up street free agents and late-round draft picks off of practice squads of other teams helps that.

It really doesn't. If Denver didn't have John Lynch, they'd be S.O.L in that department.

With the future of this team, my glass is almost all the way full - right to the rim of the glass. Put a few drops of water in (DT, LB, S, OT, RB) and it'll be overflowing.

Disagreeing with you on a few players doesn't mean I'm not optimistic, it means I have a different point of view. In my opinion - my approach would be more realistic. Color me unconvinced on the prospects of players like Young and Abdullah (who either weren't drafted or drafted late for a reason) being successful contributors (on the scale demanded for success) on this team and in the NFL.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I think me and you are the biggest haters of Pears and Holland on this messageboard Dream. Some people here actually think they are "average" ;) . I know your not too keen on Faneca or Jake Scott (not that I agree with you) but I'd still love it if we brought in Sam Baker type talent in the first and then a good G in the 3rd.

I think Pears, (with his limited talent) has done adequate. He got thrown into the fire last year at LT, and made the transition to RT which should be easier to adjust to. The thing is, he's not a road grader and that's what you want your right side of the line to be. Neither Holland or Pears are road graders. I've never liked Holland, despite the fact he played at FSU. I think for the most part, FSU lineman transfer poorly into the NFL. There's a variety of reasons for this, but yeah - I don't like those guys at all.

I understand why you'd want to get a guy like Faneca or Scott (never said I'd be against Scott, but Faneca is going to get 40$ million plus - you can bank on it) and you're more than entitled to your opinion - in fact, I completely see your logic in it. I guess my whining on Faneca regarding the money really becomes inconsequential in the long-term considering players will keep getting these ridiculous amounts of cash.

It's just how the market is working and is going to work. Free agents are just so damn spendy.


I don't think Hamilton will every play again either, I was not a fan of the guy but it's sad to hear he's had such a bad concussion.

Ben should do what is in his best interest, and I'd hope that interest is in his family. If he's medically cleared to play, then okay - but I'd love for him to be able to grow old with his kids and wife. That'll mean more than playing football ever would to him. At least, I'd hope.

[topscribe]

You mean the same Chris Henry who is going to be suspended for substance abuse? Maybe it's a "Henry" thing? Two Chris Henry's and a Travis Henry. Nothing that special.



I couldn't care less what Lynch, Bates or any coaches have to say about many particular players. Most coaches do the "PC" thing and don't publicly criticize people who are under performing. That's what they do at the end of the year meetings with each player, and is probably one of the reasons why Ian Gold will not be a Denver Bronco next year and that Gerard Warren was traded before the season started.

Triandos Luke, Corey Jackson and BJ Johnson were also hyped by players, coaches and the media. Look what happened to them.



As if I don't? I made a nice big post on Broncomania the other day regarding how much the Broncos have to look forward to with the amount of youth they have on the team.

Denver's in dire need of a brand new group of safties, every single one of them will need to be replaced by the end of the year. It's too bad this is a poor draft class for safeties, but I hope Denver finds somebody. This is the one position they ALWAYS ignore in the draft and it's beyond me. Most teams are placing a high premium on safeties these days because many of them in college can come in and contribute right away. Denver seems to think that picking up street free agents and late-round draft picks off of practice squads of other teams helps that.

It really doesn't. If Denver didn't have John Lynch, they'd be S.O.L in that department.

With the future of this team, my glass is almost all the way full - right to the rim of the glass. Put a few drops of water in (DT, LB, S, OT, RB) and it'll be overflowing.

Disagreeing with you on a few players doesn't mean I'm not optimistic, it means I have a different point of view. In my opinion - my approach would be more realistic. Color me unconvinced on the prospects of players like Young and Abdullah (who either weren't drafted or drafted late for a reason) being successful contributors (on the scale demanded for success) on this team and in the NFL.

Your arguing is just too confrontational and inflammatory.

You need to tone it down.

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[Requiem / The Dagda]

Your arguing is just too confrontational and inflammatory.

You need to tone it down.

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Nothing in my post was confrontational or inflammatory. I stated facts. Which were:

Chris Henry is going to be suspended for violating the NFL Substance Abuse Policy.

Denver coaches do not publicly criticize players.

Denver has a long history of late-round and free agent players who are talked up, but end up doing nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Denver doesn't place a premium on drafting safeties like other teams do.

I'm optimistic about the future.

I have a different view on several different players, but that doesn't mean my glass isn't half-full.


Those are facts. Every single one of them. Nothing confrontational or inflammatory about them. I'm sorry you feel that way.