Broncos DTs have quietly helped power Denver defense against the run

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Let's just say Kevin Vickerson's job description, at least the way he defines it, wouldn't have many people breaking down a door to apply.

"It's the get-all-dirty job, you know?" Vickerson said. "You get in there, with all those big guys scratching, clawing, trying to knock you down, hands in your face, blocking at your knees and you clog things up. Take on blockers, fight every down, get your bumps and bruises and stop the run.

"Then get healed up a little and do it again next week. That's what we do down in there."

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22228345/broncos-dts-have-quietly-helped-power-broncos-defense

[Denver Native (Carol)]

from article, which is great to know that Meck worked with them in training camp


"They still don't have that one every-down, dominant guy inside, but the way (defensive coordinator) Jack (Del Rio) has the defense set up, they don't really need it," said Broncos Ring of Famer Karl Mecklenburg, who worked with the team's pass rushers in training camp. "They're always trying to force runs to bounce outside with those guys in the middle and they've got some tremendously gifted athletes on the outside to make those plays. And when they stop the run, and the offense has to pass, they can get after it, and that's always been the formula for defensive success."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22228345/broncos-dts-have-quietly-helped-power-broncos-defense

[Superchop 7]

No Karl, we need a dominant DT, or at least an upgrade from what we have.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

No Karl, we need a dominant DT, or at least an upgrade from what we have.

Why? Things are working well the way it is now. I believe that Meck should know what he is talking about.

[BroncoNut]

No Karl, we need a dominant DT, or at least an upgrade from what we have.

umm.. no we don't

[HORSEPOWER 56]

No Karl, we need a dominant DT, or at least an upgrade from what we have.

I've actually been quite impressed with our interior D-line this season. Early on in the season, they took a few games to gel. We got gashed by Arian Foster a little bit and the Pats ran all over us the first time we met, but since then, we've played some pretty darned good rushing offenses and held them in check. Jamal Charles, Darren McFadden, Doug Martin, the four-headed monster in New Orleans, Cam Newton and the boys in Carolina, and Ray Rice have all had a crack at our defense and they've done a very good job against them.

It would be great if one of them was an elite pass-rusher too, but Wolfe and Unrein have been pretty darned effective at bringing pressure up the middle on passing downs to augment Von and Doom. JDR has our front seven playing above their individual talent level this year. Individually only Von and Doom are seen as pass rush threats, but as a unit, these guys are kicking ass - against the run as well which is impressive.

I'm loving what our guys are doing this season on defense! :defense:

[Joel]

I just love the photo at the top of the article, where Woodyard should've been flagged for Illegal Hands to the Face and his victim for Holding. :tongue:

Vickerson has unexpectedly impressed me this year; he may have saved a run defense on which I nearly gave up after Warren went down early against Pitt. He's not an elite NT, but the closest thing we've got, and evidently that's good enough, at least until we hit the playoffs. We still need that dominant NT though; that would be true even if Vickerson qualified (which, as much as I like him, he doesn't,) because we'd need to rotate them so they stay fresh (see Casey Hampton and Chris Hoke in Pitt.) Anyone who doubts that should re-watch SB XXXII, and most of the late '90s Packers games: Gilbert Brown was dominating—when he could stay on the field; fatigue and his backs gradual deteriation made that impossible when the Pack needed him most.

I like Wolfe, and Unrein, too, to a lesser degree, but neither is a sun-blotting, hole-clogging, double-team-demanding NOSE TACKLE. If they were we wouldn't be talking about their occasional sacks, because it's a rare NT who racks up sacks (they usually only get a few when they manage to collapse the pocket despite double teams, the kind of thing that gives Bradys and Mannings fits.) It doesn't matter how well a team plays the pass if opponents can run for 5 yards at will. Admittedlly that's a difficult concept to grasp in Minnesota, where Leslie Frazier probably lost the game and the division by having Curtis Ponder throw an end zone pick the Packers turned into a TD despite Adrian Peterson rushing for 210 yards on 10 carries, but in a way that's the point: The Vikings will miss the playoffs for the same reason good coaches won't.

Were it up to me (which of course it isn't, else we'd have done it five years ago) I'd still sell out on MLB and NT in the draft and/or free agency, with some solid guards thrown in for good measure because what we have there is anything but solid (Kuper is much better in pass than run blocking, Beadles is only just now starting to look like a guard and, while Koppen is excellent, he's also 33.)

None of that is to diminish our mostly anonymous DTs' great accomplishments this year, but nearly all of them are rotational, depth, players, and the only likely exception is Wolfe, who plays more like an UT than a NT. They're an above average group, which is far more than I expected, but the overall depth is good enough a single elite NT could make our whole front four equally elite. Then we'd be just a MLB from a HoF D.

[zbeg]

Were it up to me (which of course it isn't, else we'd have done it five years ago) I'd still sell out on MLB and NT in the draft and/or free agency, with some solid guards thrown in for good measure because what we have there is anything but solid (Kuper is much better in pass than run blocking, Beadles is only just now starting to look like a guard and, while Koppen is excellent, he's also 33.)


Remember that Koppen is the backup and that J.D. Walton was having a good season before he went out for the year. Also, I disagree pretty strongly that Beadles is just starting to look like a guard. He's been one of the better guards in the league in my opinion.

[Joel]

Remember that Koppen is the backup and that J.D. Walton was having a good season before he went out for the year. Also, I disagree pretty strongly that Beadles is just starting to look like a guard. He's been one of the better guards in the league in my opinion.
We must agree to disagree on how good Beadles and Walton have looked the past two years. Beadles is better this year, but that frankly wasn't hard to do. I know Walton's out for the season, and had very mixed feelings about it when it happened, because I knew Tom Bradys old center couldn't help being the massive improvement he has proven.

The main difference I've seen between Beadles and Walton this year is that the former has gotten much better at run blocking, supposedly the easier blocking assignment, and one offensive linemen prefer, but one at which pretty much all our guards have been horrible for a while. Much as I like Kuper, he's no better than an average run blocker, IMHO; he makes up for it by being an excellent pass blocker.

Yet at the end of the day, the quality I value most in guards is run blocking, just as the quality I value most in tackles is pass blocking. Our guards have not run blocked well in a VERY long time. Next time you watch a game count how many times our backs get hit behind the line of scrimmage, then see if you can figure out why McGahee and Moreno are hurt so much. There's a very good reason McGahee led the league in yards after contact last year, and it doesn't reflect well on Beadles and Walton, who started every game.

[zbeg]

We must agree to disagree on how good Beadles and Walton have looked the past two years. Beadles is better this year, but that frankly wasn't hard to do. I know Walton's out for the season, and had very mixed feelings about it when it happened, because I knew Tom Bradys old center couldn't help being the massive improvement he has proven.

The main difference I've seen between Beadles and Walton this year is that the former has gotten much better at run blocking, supposedly the easier blocking assignment, and one offensive linemen prefer, but one at which pretty much all our guards have been horrible for a while. Much as I like Kuper, he's no better than an average run blocker, IMHO; he makes up for it by being an excellent pass blocker.

Yet at the end of the day, the quality I value most in guards is run blocking, just as the quality I value most in tackles is pass blocking. Our guards have not run blocked well in a VERY long time. Next time you watch a game count how many times our backs get hit behind the line of scrimmage, then see if you can figure out why McGahee and Moreno are hurt so much. There's a very good reason McGahee led the league in yards after contact last year, and it doesn't reflect well on Beadles and Walton, who started every game.

I think you're on an island here in regards to Beadles, who is regarded as one of the best guards in the league this year. I'm not just talking about pro-bowl voters who don't really watch line play, but guys who pay attention to the offensive linemen and who is performing well and who isn't.

I do disagree that run blocking is more important than pass blocking as offenses becomes more pass-oriented because that's where the yardage is. Ten years ago I would agree with you, but now I would rather have a strong pass blocker who is a poor run blocker than vice-versa.

I've pulled up coaches film of a sampling of Broncos games and I just don't see what you're seeing. And yards after contact don't reflect that a player is getting poor run blocking. It means that he's, well, good at getting yards after contact. Tatum Bell was terrible at getting yards after contact not because his blocking was bad, but because he was just not very good at it.

Adrian Peterson, on the other hand, is annihilating the league in yards after contact (909 yards this year) because he's just very very good at running the ball.

[Joel]

I think you're on an island here in regards to Beadles, who is regarded as one of the best guards in the league this year. I'm not just talking about pro-bowl voters who don't really watch line play, but guys who pay attention to the offensive linemen and who is performing well and who isn't.

I do disagree that run blocking is more important than pass blocking as offenses becomes more pass-oriented because that's where the yardage is. Ten years ago I would agree with you, but now I would rather have a strong pass blocker who is a poor run blocker than vice-versa.

I've pulled up coaches film of a sampling of Broncos games and I just don't see what you're seeing. And yards after contact don't reflect that a player is getting poor run blocking. It means that he's, well, good at getting yards after contact. Tatum Bell was terrible at getting yards after contact not because his blocking was bad, but because he was just not very good at it.

Adrian Peterson, on the other hand, is annihilating the league in yards after contact (909 yards this year) because he's just very very good at running the ball.
Beadles has gotten better this year, but it was way past time. I'm not gonna pat him on the back because he finally started doing the job we put him in the starting line up to do THREE YEARS AGO. He's a good downfield blocker, but don't let that blind you to his difficulty blocking at the line; if no one blocks the DTs, DEs and LBs at the line, pancaking safeties 20 yards downfield doesn't matter. The reason I continually complain about our backs getting hit multiple times in the backfield is because I keep seeing it multiple times every week; not sure why we aren't seeing the same thing. It HAS gotten better the last month or so, which just might explain why Knowshon Morenos suddenly went from has-been-who-never-was to a quality back despite last years ACL tear. Yards after contact demand broken tackles, but a LOT of McGahees were behind the line last year, as evidenced by the fact he was #1 in yards after contact but #8 in YARDS and #16 in rushing average. And he was hurt a lot, just like Moreno; are they "fragile," or just "beat up"?

Understand, too, I don't value run blocking over passing blocking absolutely, for all linemen. The best pass rushers are usually DEs coming around tackles, making the pass, not the run, a tackles top priority (you are welcome and encouraged to share that with Orlando Franklin. ;)) On the other hand, DTs usually focus more on stopping runs up the gut, forcing guards (including the center) lined up across from them to prioritize run blocking above pass blocking. That is underscored by how often guards must pull to lead block on the outside. Against 3-4s the whole defensive line is primarily oriented toward the inside run except on obvious passing downs, and a guards main responsibility is to leave them crying in their beer. Consider LBs: They usually blitz off the edge (i.e. against tackles) or on a DELAY up the middle after guards are already engaged, forcing the back (if any) to pick up the rush. What's the ONE time a LB is likely to match up with a guard inside? On a RUN, making the guards main responsibility clear.

Thus it worries me that our best guard (with the possible exception of Koppen) may be Orlando Franklin, a mediocre RT, while our ACTUAL guards are good pass blockers deficient at run blocking. Beadles was noticeably improved at the start of the season, and has improved further, but had a long way to go and still isn't there. Koppen is lightyears ahead of Walton, but also nearly a decade older, so not a long term solution. Kuper's a fine pass blocker, but often outmuscled at the point of attack on runs, and when he's hurt (like now) all we have is Ramirez, who's been a big disappointment to this point. In terms of "complementary football," our desperate need for an elite NT or two illustrates our comparable need for an elite G or two, and vice versa.

[gregbroncs]

Remember that Koppen is the backup and that J.D. Walton was having a good season before he went out for the year. Also, I disagree pretty strongly that Beadles is just starting to look like a guard. He's been one of the better guards in the league in my opinion.While I agree about Beadles. It seems to me our O-line got much better after Walton got hurt. I think Koppen has been an upgrade at that position.

[BroncoNut]

Beadles has gotten better this year, but it was way past time. I'm not gonna pat him on the back because he finally started doing the job we put him in the starting line up to do THREE YEARS AGO. He's a good downfield blocker, but don't let that blind you to his difficulty blocking at the line; if no one blocks the DTs, DEs and LBs at the line, pancaking safeties 20 yards downfield doesn't matter. The reason I continually complain about our backs getting hit multiple times in the backfield is because I keep seeing it multiple times every week; not sure why we aren't seeing the same thing. It HAS gotten better the last month or so, which just might explain why Knowshon Morenos suddenly went from has-been-who-never-was to a quality back despite last years ACL tear. Yards after contact demand broken tackles, but a LOT of McGahees were behind the line last year, as evidenced by the fact he was #1 in yards after contact but #8 in YARDS and #16 in rushing average. And he was hurt a lot, just like Moreno; are they "fragile," or just "beat up"?

Understand, too, I don't value run blocking over passing blocking absolutely, for all linemen. The best pass rushers are usually DEs coming around tackles, making the pass, not the run, a tackles top priority (you are welcome and encouraged to share that with Orlando Franklin. ;)) On the other hand, DTs usually focus more on stopping runs up the gut, forcing guards (including the center) lined up across from them to prioritize run blocking above pass blocking. That is underscored by how often guards must pull to lead block on the outside. Against 3-4s the whole defensive line is primarily oriented toward the inside run except on obvious passing downs, and a guards main responsibility is to leave them crying in their beer. Consider LBs: They usually blitz off the edge (i.e. against tackles) or on a DELAY up the middle after guards are already engaged, forcing the back (if any) to pick up the rush. What's the ONE time a LB is likely to match up with a guard inside? On a RUN, making the guards main responsibility clear.

Thus it worries me that our best guard (with the possible exception of Koppen) may be Orlando Franklin, a mediocre RT, while our ACTUAL guards are good pass blockers deficient at run blocking. Beadles was noticeably improved at the start of the season, and has improved further, but had a long way to go and still isn't there. Koppen is lightyears ahead of Walton, but also nearly a decade older, so not a long term solution. Kuper's a fine pass blocker, but often outmuscled at the point of attack on runs, and when he's hurt (like now) all we have is Ramirez, who's been a big disappointment to this point. In terms of "complementary football," our desperate need for an elite NT or two illustrates our comparable need for an elite G or two, and vice versa.

a bit above my head at this time in my football fan career, but great post and interesting/sensable take of the running game last year vs. this year.

[Joel]

a bit above my head at this time in my football fan career, but great post and interesting/sensable take of the running game last year vs. this year.
Basically, I'm coming at it from the perspective that the main duties of the guy a lineman usually blocks tells us the linemans priorities. I want DTs to stop runs up the gut, so I want good run blocking guards opposing them. I want tackles to block Doom and Miller on the edge, meaning good pass blockers. That doesn't mean tackles don't need to run block or guards don't need to pass block; it's just a matter of which takes precedence for each. It's a bit more complicated when we talk about guards pulling to run block outside or DBs and LBs on delayed blitzes up the gut (usually picked up by runningbacks,) but the same trend holds.

Like I say, it works the other way around, too: If their best run blockers are guards we need DTs who stuff the run; if their best pass blockers are tackles we need DEs to rush the passer well. All of which means we can have the best pass blockers ever at guard and I still won't be happy if they can't run block, just as the best run blocking tackles won't satisfy me if they can't pass block. I'm glad Franklin's such a road-grader at RT, but would be far happier if he didn't hold as much on pass plays. I'm glad Kuper and Beadles pass block well, but would be far happier if they didn't get pushed around so much on runs.

[Simple Jaded]

Didn't Beadles just get his ass handed to him again?.......

[SR]

Didn't Beadles just get his ass handed to him again?.......

No.

[Joel]

Didn't Beadles just get his ass handed to him again?.......
I'll need a clip; I was making a Christmas call to my mom for most of the game. It was that one or the Texans game, and I couldn't imagine our game being close. :redface: If it was run blocking at the line I'll assume the answer is "of course." He can pass block or plow a 70 lb. lighter safety 20 yards downfield, but don't expect line surge against DTs. Though IIRC he did it on a 5 yd Moreno TD run last week, so good job there.

[TXBRONC]

No.

Correct it was Manny Ramirez that got beat a couple of times.

[zbeg]

Correct it was Manny Ramirez that got beat a couple of times.

He should have stuck to baseball.

[Dzone]

Ya, he got rag dolled yesterday. One play he got driven straight backwards and it was like he was wearing roller skates.

[Nomad]

Run defense did a solid job yesterday. Charles is next on the list.

[TXBRONC]

He should have stuck to baseball.

He can't hit the curve ball anymore.

[Nomad]

He can't hit the curve ball anymore.

Had an ump ask me last year.....what's the best pitch in baseball? What do you think?

[zbeg]

Had an ump ask me last year.....what's the best pitch in baseball? What do you think?

Obviously the knuckleball:

http://i.imgur.com/MbYee.gif

[Nomad]

Obviously the knuckleball:

http://i.imgur.com/MbYee.gif

Funny thing is me and a couple other dads were naming off pitches and the ump comes back and says the best pitch in baseball is a strike:drum::ohwell::lol:

[MOtorboat]

I just love the photo at the top of the article, where Woodyard should've been flagged for Illegal Hands to the Face and his victim for Holding. :tongue:

Vickerson has unexpectedly impressed me this year; he may have saved a run defense on which I nearly gave up after Warren went down early against Pitt. He's not an elite NT, but the closest thing we've got, and evidently that's good enough, at least until we hit the playoffs. We still need that dominant NT though; that would be true even if Vickerson qualified (which, as much as I like him, he doesn't,) because we'd need to rotate them so they stay fresh (see Casey Hampton and Chris Hoke in Pitt.) Anyone who doubts that should re-watch SB XXXII, and most of the late '90s Packers games: Gilbert Brown was dominating—when he could stay on the field; fatigue and his backs gradual deteriation made that impossible when the Pack needed him most.

I like Wolfe, and Unrein, too, to a lesser degree, but neither is a sun-blotting, hole-clogging, double-team-demanding NOSE TACKLE. If they were we wouldn't be talking about their occasional sacks, because it's a rare NT who racks up sacks (they usually only get a few when they manage to collapse the pocket despite double teams, the kind of thing that gives Bradys and Mannings fits.) It doesn't matter how well a team plays the pass if opponents can run for 5 yards at will. Admittedlly that's a difficult concept to grasp in Minnesota, where Leslie Frazier probably lost the game and the division by having Curtis Ponder throw an end zone pick the Packers turned into a TD despite Adrian Peterson rushing for 210 yards on 10 carries, but in a way that's the point: The Vikings will miss the playoffs for the same reason good coaches won't.

Were it up to me (which of course it isn't, else we'd have done it five years ago) I'd still sell out on MLB and NT in the draft and/or free agency, with some solid guards thrown in for good measure because what we have there is anything but solid (Kuper is much better in pass than run blocking, Beadles is only just now starting to look like a guard and, while Koppen is excellent, he's also 33.)

None of that is to diminish our mostly anonymous DTs' great accomplishments this year, but nearly all of them are rotational, depth, players, and the only likely exception is Wolfe, who plays more like an UT than a NT. They're an above average group, which is far more than I expected, but the overall depth is good enough a single elite NT could make our whole front four equally elite. Then we'd be just a MLB from a HoF D.

Edit: I shouldn't say backwards, but different at least from what I believe is the right way to do it, and what Fox believes is the right way to do it.

Denver did it right, IMO.

If you take a look at the Packers team you referenced above, the first round picks that started on that team were LT, RDE and LCB (and Reggie White at LDE, who was obviously a first round pick for the Eagles and a free agent acquisition of the Packers).

They found their defensive tackles in the third round and free agency (originally a fifth round pick), and their middle linebacker was undrafted.

Their guards were taken in the sixth and seventh rounds and their center in the 10th.

[Joel]

Edit: I shouldn't say backwards, but different at least from what I believe is the right way to do it, and what Fox believes is the right way to do it.

Denver did it right, IMO.

If you take a look at the Packers team you referenced above, the first round picks that started on that team were LT, RDE and LCB (and Reggie White at LDE, who was obviously a first round pick for the Eagles and a free agent acquisition of the Packers).

They found their defensive tackles in the third round and free agency (originally a fifth round pick), and their middle linebacker was undrafted.
Yes, and the Packs run D was garbage when Gilbert Brown, their only good DT, was hurt, which was often. That's why they won just one Super Bowl instead of three straight: In the '95 NFC Championship, Dallas went 99 yards just before the half to break a tie with an Emmitt Smith TD, and when the Pack mounted a second half comeback a 90 yard Cowboys drive ended with another Emmitt TD; a third iced the game and gave Emmitt 150 rushing yards in the game. We all know what Terrell Davis did to Green Bay in Super Bowl XXXII: He ripped them apart so badly eight Packers defenders followed him on a play fake that let Elway waltz into the endzone untouched, and Davis finished with 157 rushing yards, 3 rushing TDs (still a Super Bowl record) and the Super Bowl MVP award despite missing a WHOLE QUARTER with a blinding migraine.

Maybe the mid-nineties Packers aren't the best example of how to build a great run defense or acquire great defensive tackles. ;)


Their guards were taken in the sixth and seventh rounds and their center in the 10th.
And their rushing offense was practically non-existent. My best friend and then-roommate is a huge Packers fan, and I constantly gave him crap about that throughout the '95, '96 and '97 seasons. I still do. They didn't have a single 1000 yard rusher the year they won the Super Bowl, and Edgar Bennett only barely managed it with 1067 the previous year. Even giving Levens the ball on every single run (Favre was second in rushing yardage) he only got about 1400 in '97.

That team was all about Favre slinging passes to Antonio Freeman, Mark Chmura and even Dorsey Levens (often a more valuable receiver and blocker than runner.) That made tackles more important than guards.

Fox has never shown any grasp of offense (else he would've unleashed Delhomme much sooner and probably won SB XVIII,) so I expect little of him there. He's a good enough defensive coach to know how to stop the run though, and it's not with sack-masters at DE and OLB. I'm not a defensive guy, but know a runstopping RDE and DTs are critical to defending the run, and credit you and Fox with as much knowledge. ;)

[Chef Zambini]

this week our run defense will be tested !
what did the cheifs have 400 yards rushing in their most recent game?
and thats without a rushing QB in the mix !
the cheifs should aquire TEBOW and just run the ball on 96 out of 100 plays.

[Simple Jaded]

No.

According to Dave Logan he did, more than once.......