Bailey says he never plans to play Safety...

[HORSEPOWER 56]

For you, Zam!

Can we put it to rest, now?

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/bailey-says-never-plans-playing-225002358--nfl.html

[Dzone]

Well damn, how bout that. I hope Champ gets called the "Ageless Wonder" just like Darrell Green! Yay Champ!

[Krugan]

No, this one will never end.

[bcbronc]

That's too bad imo. I think the move would add 3-5 years of elite level play to Champs career. I mean he's 34 now and I doubt he'll be playing as well as he is at CB when he's Ronde's age.

Yes I know Green played at a relatively high level until he was ancient but A) its a different era with different rules, and B) find a second example that played at or near an elite level into his late 30s.

With that siad, it wasn't too convincing an article without any direct quotes and being midseason and all. I'm still holding on to hope that one day Champ will make the move and extend his career a few extra years.

[NightTerror218]

That's too bad imo. I think the move would add 3-5 years of elite level play to Champs career. I mean he's 34 now and I doubt he'll be playing as well as he is at CB when he's Ronde's age.

Yes I know Green played at a relatively high level until he was ancient but A) its a different era with different rules, and B) find a second example that played at or near an elite level into his late 30s.

With that siad, it wasn't too convincing an article without any direct quotes and being midseason and all. I'm still holding on to hope that one day Champ will make the move and extend his career a few extra years.

he is still at high level and he feels great.....lets just see how it goes. So far next year looks good for him to play at CB too.

[Dzone]

The advanced understanding of the human body we have now far exceeds anything players in the past had. Nutrition, training, recovery, etc etc etc is so much further than just 10 years ago...Players like Champ and Peyton Manning will be playing in their 40s.
People arent as old as they used to be...lol

[Northman]

Somewhere Zam just threw his grill into the pool.

[topscribe]

That is a very bad headline. Champ didn't say he NEVER plans to play safety.
He even corrected a reporter in no uncertain words, who implied that he said
that. Champ said he doesn't have plans to play safety, as in right now. He
made it very clear that he has not closed the door on that.

[TXBRONC]

Next up for Zam: "Cut Champ's flaky ass because he's a not a team player."

[tubby]

Perfect :D

[vettesplus]

not sure which champ you guys have been watching, but lately all i see when a catch is made from the other team is champ shaking his head because he did not make the play. i think he is on a very strong down side to his career. maybe 2 more years and he will be done...jmo!!!

[MOtorboat]

not sure which champ you guys have been watching, but lately all i see when a catch is made from the other team is champ shaking his head because he did not make the play. i think he is on a very strong down side to his career. maybe 2 more years and he will be done...jmo!!!

You should watch the games a little closer then.

[NightTerror218]

I wonder if Zam's head exploded?

[MOtorboat]

I wonder if Zam's head exploded?

No. This just "affirms" his belief that Bailey is "selfish."

[BroncoWave]

not sure which champ you guys have been watching, but lately all i see when a catch is made from the other team is champ shaking his head because he did not make the play. i think he is on a very strong down side to his career. maybe 2 more years and he will be done...jmo!!!

Other than against AJ Green, what other WR has done anything of note against champ this season?

[MOtorboat]

Other than against AJ Green, what other WR has done anything of note against champ this season?

No one.

[NightTerror218]

No one.

Roddy White/Wes Welker/Andre Johnson

[MOtorboat]

Roddy White/Julio Jones/Wes Welker/Andre Johnson

:tsk:

[MOtorboat]

Making the same dumb arguments Zam does. Goes to find the best receiver on the team statistically. Then blames Champ.

That's a weak argument. He shut down Johnson when they moved him over.

[NightTerror218]

:tsk:

not all of them had amazing games, but they did line up against champ and we did lose those games. just saying.

edit: white 102 yards, johnson 72 yards, welker 104 yards I do not know if champ was locked on the best WR during those games or not but those are the top WR for their teams and had good games.

[MOtorboat]

not all of them had amazing games, but they did line up against champ and we did lose those games. just saying.

Really?

[cmc0605]

not all of them had amazing games, but they did line up against champ and we did lose those games. just saying.

edit: white 102 yards, johnson 72 yards, welker 104 yards I do not know if champ was locked on the best WR during those games or not but those are the top WR for their teams and had good games.

This is why people need to watch the games before judging players. How good a cornerback does has nothing to do with whether we win or lose the game (this should be obvious), and it doesn't have anything to do with how good a receivers stats are. The second point may seem less obvious than the first, but a few things to consider:

1) Champ did not cover those guys every play each game. For example, Andre Johnson's 72 yards came primarily from a big 60 yard TD catch, and it was Tracy Porter (not Bailey) in coverage on that play. There was also a couple of safety issues over the top early in the season.

2) Champ has played a tremendous amount of man coverage this year on top receivers, but not always the "#1 guy" (he played Julio Jones and Brandon Lloyd sometimes during the other games, for example). Other times, it's a zone defense, and it is a linebacker or safeties job to defend a player, even if Champ initially lines across from them

3) Sometimes players will give up passes depending on the situation. For example, if it's 3rd and 15, it's stupid to go for a pick on a quick 5 yard route if you have no safety support. Instead, you give the 5 yard catch, and then make the tackle. P.S. Champ is still a top 3 tackling DB in my opinion.

I actually don't even think he had that bad of a game working on A.J. Green, but that's another argument...

The big point is that Champ, as usual and as expected, has done a tremendous job taking away the threat of whoever is lining against him. If you watch the games you can see this. He's gives up a few short to intermediate ones now and then, but he's still not being tested very often.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

not all of them had amazing games, but they did line up against champ and we did lose those games. just saying.

edit: white 102 yards, johnson 72 yards, welker 104 yards I do not know if champ was locked on the best WR during those games or not but those are the top WR for their teams and had good games.

White was lined up on Porter all game. Champ covered Jones almost exclusively...

The majority of Johnson's 72 yards and his lone TD came against Porter...

Champ never once lined up against Welker in the NE game. Champ lined up vs Lloyd exclusively. Chris Harris was singled up on Welker for the majority of the game.

Champ plays LCB and rarely moves to cover the other team's #1. He has been doing it more this season than I've ever seen before, but in pretty much ever example you listed, Champ wasn't the guy covering that receiver.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

This is why people need to watch the games before judging players.

Yep. I posted right after you did and this was exactly what I was thinking when I was typing mine. If you didn't watch the game, or can't remember what happened, don't post things as if they're facts. There are lies, damned lies, and statistics...

[MOtorboat]

White was lined up on Porter all game. Champ covered Jones almost exclusively...

The majority of Johnson's 72 yards and his lone TD came against Porter...

Champ never once lined up against Welker in the NE game. Champ lined up vs Lloyd exclusively. Chris Harris was singled up on Welker for the majority of the game.

Champ plays LCB and rarely moves to cover the other team's #1. He has been doing it more this season than I've ever seen before, but in pretty much ever example you listed, Champ wasn't the guy covering that receiver.

And when he has moved - over to Johnson in the Houston game, on Steve Smith in the Carolina game, Malcolm Floyd against San Diego, Bowe against Kansas City - he's shut down that wide receiver.

It's just idiotic to claim Bailey still isn't one of the best.

[smith49]

It's as if some just make statements without even watching the games. Good grief. Champ is still one of the best in the league and that's a fact, not an opinion.

[smith49]

White was lined up on Porter all game. Champ covered Jones almost exclusively...

The majority of Johnson's 72 yards and his lone TD came against Porter...

Champ never once lined up against Welker in the NE game. Champ lined up vs Lloyd exclusively. Chris Harris was singled up on Welker for the majority of the game.

Champ plays LCB and rarely moves to cover the other team's #1. He has been doing it more this season than I've ever seen before, but in pretty much ever example you listed, Champ wasn't the guy covering that receiver.

And when he has moved - over to Johnson in the Houston game, on Steve Smith in the Carolina game, Malcolm Floyd against San Diego, Bowe against Kansas City - he's shut down that wide receiver.

It's just idiotic to claim Bailey still isn't one of the best.




Oh and not to mention that he is by far one of the best open field tacklers we or any team has. He rarely wigs on a tackle. Gosh damn, why is this even an argument. It's obvious if you watch him play how good he still is.

[topscribe]

I do not know if champ was locked on the best WR during those games or not
Then why bring that up?

[bcbronc]

Has anyone ever said Champ isn't still one of the best CBs in the league on these boards? Because if they have, I haven't seen it. You guys are yelling down arguments no one has even made. :lol:

[SR]

These threads..:

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Chef Zambini]

This is why people need to watch the games before judging players. How good a cornerback does has nothing to do with whether we win or lose the game (this should be obvious), and it doesn't have anything to do with how good a receivers stats are. The second point may seem less obvious than the first, but a few things to consider:

1) Champ did not cover those guys every play each game. [/B


For example, Andre Johnson's 72 yards came primarily from a big 60 yard TD catch, and it was Tracy Porter (not Bailey) in coverage on that play. There was also a couple of safety issues over the top early in the season.

[B]2) Champ has played a tremendous amount of man coverage this year on top receivers, but not always the "#1 guy"


(he played Julio Jones and Brandon Lloyd sometimes during the other games, for example). Other times, it's a zone defense, and it is a linebacker or safeties job to defend a player, even if Champ initially lines across from them

3) Sometimes players will give up passes depending on the situation. For example, if it's 3rd and 15, it's stupid to go for a pick on a quick 5 yard route if you have no safety support. Instead, you give the 5 yard catch, and then make the tackle. P.S. Champ is still a top 3 tackling DB in my opinion.

I actually don't even think he had that bad of a game working on A.J. Green, but that's another argument...

The big point is that Champ, as usual and as expected, has done a tremendous job taking away the threat of whoever is lining against him. If you watch the games you can see this. He's gives up a few short to intermediate ones now and then, but he's still not being tested very often.
so mo admits, champ does NOT go 1 on 1 with the opponents top receiver. he does NOT shut down the best receiver, let alone half the field.
welcome to reality mo.

[Davii]

There isn't a team or coach in the league who wouldn't love to have Champ at corner. He is still among the best in the league. If he ever moves to safety it will be because he wanted to, and if he does it won't be for a while yet. He is not showing signs of a drop off, not to anyone who is being unbiased in their assessment anyway, or at least watching the game.

[SR]

so mo admits, champ does NOT go 1 on 1 with the opponents top receiver. he does NOT shut down the best receiver, let alone half the field.
welcome to reality mo.

That's not what Mo said.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Davii]

so mo admits, champ does NOT go 1 on 1 with the opponents top receiver. he does NOT shut down the best receiver, let alone half the field.
welcome to reality mo.

That wasn't Mo. Glad to see you can pay attention to who is posting as well as you can break down corner play.

[MOtorboat]

Has anyone ever said Champ isn't still one of the best CBs in the league on these boards?

Yup.


not sure which champ you guys have been watching, but lately all i see when a catch is made from the other team is champ shaking his head because he did not make the play. i think he is on a very strong down side to his career. maybe 2 more years and he will be done...jmo!!!


so mo admits, champ does NOT go 1 on 1 with the opponents top receiver. he does NOT shut down the best receiver, let alone half the field.
welcome to reality mo.

Idiocy.

[Chef Zambini]

champ is an excellent cvorner. He would be more effective for our D as a safety.
weird how those names and games listed were all losses, huh?
having a greaT 1 on 1 corner does NOT guarantee a successful defense. neither does a top safety. i just contend a top flight safety makes a greater impact, for the ENTIRE defensive effort.
the jets have 3 great cover corners, hows that working out for them?

[MOtorboat]

champ is an excellent cvorner. He would be more effective for our D as a safety.
weird how those names and games listed were all losses, huh?
having a greaT 1 on 1 corner does NOT guarantee a successful defense. neither does a top safety. i just contend a top flight safety makes a greater impact, for the ENTIRE defensive effort.
the jets have 3 great cover corners, hows that working out for them?

Nope. You're wrong. Plain and simple.

[bcbronc]

There isn't a team or coach in the league who wouldn't love to have Champ at corner. He is still among the best in the league. If he ever moves to safety it will be because he wanted to, and if he does it won't be for a while yet. He is not showing signs of a drop off, not to anyone who is being unbiased in their assessment anyway, or at least watching the game.

I agree completely with the first half of your post. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single CB I'd rather have than Champ Bailey for THIS season. Maybe a guy from CHI but not sure if they play as much man as we do. If Champ isn't the best CB in the league right now, he's right there. It's a testament to just what kind of physical specimen Champ is, and also maybe says something on the derth of truly elite CBs in the league right now.

But you can't honestly say Champ hasn't shown any sign of a drop off. He's not what he was 5 years ago when he was super human. No way Malcolm Floyd would have made 3 catches vs Champ in the second half 5 years ago. Champ's still great, but to say he hasn't declined at all is incorrect.

[Poet]

There are about two corners who actually play an entire game on one player...

[bcbronc]

There are about two corners who actually play an entire game on one player...

which is why I always object when anyone says Champ "singlehandedly" shut X down.

[MOtorboat]

There are about two corners who actually play an entire game on one player...

One blew his ACL. And even he plays some zone and various coverages. It's really rare to see a game like Denver had against Carolina where they play strictly man on one side and bracket on the other (guess whose side was man). In today's NFL you do have to disguise and mix up coverages. The quarterbacks are good. The research is at an all time high and will keep increasing as technology increases. But to just outright deny the impact of a corner is just ludicrous.

But because they mix up coverages doesn't mean Champ isn't doing his job, which is to shut down recievers. Regardless of who the receiver is on THAT play. One touchdown has been scored on Champ Bailey this season. I believe it's one of two or three in the last five years. Do you know how ridiculous that is with the offensive league the NFL is now?

[Poet]

One blew his ACL. And even he plays some zone and various coverages. It's really rare to see a game like Denver had against Carolina where they play strictly man on one side and bracket on the other (guess whose side was man). In today's NFL you do have to disguise and mix up coverages. The quarterbacks are good. The research is at an all time high and will keep increasing as technology increases. But to just outright deny the impact of a corner is just ludicrous.

Exactly. Sometimes a top corner is put on a certain player in specific situations.

The Bengals used to put Jonathan Joseph on the best WR a team had. The exceptions included the opposition's best deep threat on third and long or short yardage.

Champ actually looks like a human being. It's demoralizing to some and infuriating to others.

Why is it assumed that Champ would automatically be a good safety?

Do Jets fans ponder if Revis should be a safety right now?

[Poet]

which is why I always object when anyone says Champ "singlehandedly" shut X down.

Well, sometimes he still does. If every time he's on that WR they don't catch the ball, he did.

[underrated29]

champ is an excellent cvorner. He would be more effective for our D as a safety.
weird how those names and games listed were all losses, huh?
having a greaT 1 on 1 corner does NOT guarantee a successful defense. neither does a top safety. i just contend a top flight safety makes a greater impact, for the ENTIRE defensive effort.
the jets have 3 great cover corners, hows that working out for them?




Was it champs fault we turned the ball over three times in our redzone or theirs?

Weird how we would lose a game when we do something like that huh?

[I Eat Staples]

not sure which champ you guys have been watching, but lately all i see when a catch is made from the other team is champ shaking his head because he did not make the play. i think he is on a very strong down side to his career. maybe 2 more years and he will be done...jmo!!!

That's because Champ expects so much of himself that he doesn't even want to give up the 3 catches per game to the opponent's best receiver that he does.

[I Eat Staples]

champ is an excellent cvorner. He would be more effective for our D as a safety.
weird how those names and games listed were all losses, huh?
having a greaT 1 on 1 corner does NOT guarantee a successful defense. neither does a top safety. i just contend a top flight safety makes a greater impact, for the ENTIRE defensive effort.
the jets have 3 great cover corners, hows that working out for them?

Who's a great cover corner on the Jets other than Revis, who is out for the year? Cromartie is overrated and just jumps routes like Asante Samuel, I'd hardly call him a cover corner.

[MOtorboat]

Who's a great cover corner on the Jets other than Revis, who is out for the year? Cromartie is overrated and just jumps routes like Asante Samuel, I'd hardly call him a cover corner.

Zam knows nothing about defensive football. It's sorely obvious.

[Simple Jaded]

I'd hate to see fans when there isn't a Champ Bailey at CB.......

[Timmy!]

Shut up zam.

[Canmore]

One blew his ACL. And even he plays some zone and various coverages. It's really rare to see a game like Denver had against Carolina where they play strictly man on one side and bracket on the other (guess whose side was man). In today's NFL you do have to disguise and mix up coverages. The quarterbacks are good. The research is at an all time high and will keep increasing as technology increases. But to just outright deny the impact of a corner is just ludicrous.

But because they mix up coverages doesn't mean Champ isn't doing his job, which is to shut down recievers. Regardless of who the receiver is on THAT play. One touchdown has been scored on Champ Bailey this season. I believe it's one of two or three in the last five years. Do you know how ridiculous that is with the offensive league the NFL is now?


Bailey just doesn't give up scores. This is a passing league and Bailey pitches shut outs. That is impressive. I don't care what his age is.

[DenBronx]

I guess this settles it and now leaves the door open for....wait for it....





.....wait for it......





Move Doom to OLB thread!!!!!

[Dapper Dan]

Hey guys. You know who started at Quarterback in all of our losses? Manning. We should really move him to Offensive Coordinator. It would add a long time to his NFL career. Think about it, the best thing about Manning is his brain. He could use that as an OC. It would be Osweiler, or whoever's, arm with Manning's brain. But I'm sure Manning selfishly wants to stay Quarterback.

[Dapper Dan]

I guess this settles it and now leaves the door open for....wait for it....





.....wait for it......





Move Doom to OLB thread!!!!!

It would add years to his career to get him out of the trenches.

[Day1BroncoFan]

Will he be making clay pottery instead?

[dogfish]

One blew his ACL. And even he plays some zone and various coverages. It's really rare to see a game like Denver had against Carolina where they play strictly man on one side and bracket on the other (guess whose side was man). In today's NFL you do have to disguise and mix up coverages. The quarterbacks are good. The research is at an all time high and will keep increasing as technology increases. But to just outright deny the impact of a corner is just ludicrous.

But because they mix up coverages doesn't mean Champ isn't doing his job, which is to shut down recievers. Regardless of who the receiver is on THAT play. One touchdown has been scored on Champ Bailey this season. I believe it's one of two or three in the last five years. Do you know how ridiculous that is with the offensive league the NFL is now?

MO, do you think zam is clay's father?

[Northman]

not all of them had amazing games, but they did line up against champ and we did lose those games. just saying.

Jax held Johnson to 21 yds receiving and they still lost too. Poor example.

[Northman]

which is why I always object when anyone says Champ "singlehandedly" shut X down.

And why i object when someone says he single handidly lost a game.

[MOtorboat]

MO, do you think zam is clay's father?

No. Clay only hates Champ because he loves Portis. It's also irrational, but it's not the same thing.

:coffee:

[Chef Zambini]

so after all of you CCOs insist that champ takes away half the field and shuts down the #1 receiver EVERY game, you now can admit to the reaLITY THAT CHAMPO DOES not always taker the top receiver 1 on 1 every play every game.
NOW...
some of you rectify your assinine statements by saying no corner does that !
and now...
some of you recognise that shutting down the opponents top receiver is no guaranteed of defensive success.
it just makes the game 10 on 10.
reality is catching up to some of you.
all along I have said the same:
champ is an excellent corner, but...
as a safety he would be amazing and his contribution as a SAFETY would do more for the success of the defense.
far more valuable than just taking ONE receiver out of the equasion.
especially when that one receiver isnt always the best receiver.
when an opponent has an andre johnson or a calvin johnson or a larry fitzgerald, i will acknowledge the value of taking away the top receiver and playing 10 on 10 football.

[MOtorboat]

Do you like the strawman arguments you've set up Zam?

[shank]

zam is bad at knowing things.

[CoachChaz]

I've said before that I think moving Champ to safety would be great as well. For many of the same reasons Zam describes. However...I wouldnt do it until we had 2 other CB's that are capable of shutting receivers down. Right now, Carter, Harris, Porter and Bolden arent those guys. So until then...leave Champ at CB.

The other thing I look at is that the NFL is a pass pass pass league right now and even at age 34...Champ is still considered a top 5 elite cover corner. That's means in the last 12 years, a maximum of 4 better corners, at best (depending on where you rank Champ in the top 5) have come into the NFL. That says something. So while it would be great to have the luxury of moving him to safety...it just isnt the best idea right now.

[Nomad]

Do what you gotta do, Champ.

[chazoe60]

I've said before that I think moving Champ to safety would be great as well. For many of the same reasons Zam describes. However...I wouldnt do it until we had 2 other CB's that are capable of shutting receivers down. Right now, Carter, Harris, Porter and Bolden arent those guys. So until then...leave Champ at CB.

The other thing I look at is that the NFL is a pass pass pass league right now and even at age 34...Champ is still considered a top 5 elite cover corner. That's means in the last 12 years, a maximum of 4 better corners, at best (depending on where you rank Champ in the top 5) have come into the NFL. That says something. So while it would be great to have the luxury of moving him to safety...it just isnt the best idea right now.

Excellent post. I agree completely.

[Ravage!!!]

The most absurd part to any of zam's statements, is reading that "champ would do more for the defense at safety." Thats the dumbest thing he's said, and just keeps repeating it. It has no validity to it, is completely ignorant, and is completely opposite of what DCs and GMs have been going after for years. Especially in today's pass happy league, top corners are just that much MORE important.

[Poet]

Zam is a troll.

[Timmy!]

The most absurd part to any of zam's statements, is reading that "champ would do more for the defense at safety." Thats the dumbest thing he's said, and just keeps repeating it. It has no validity to it, is completely ignorant, and is completely opposite of what DCs and GMs have been going after for years. Especially in today's pass happy league, top corners are just that much MORE important.

But Ed Reed!!!! *derp*

[topscribe]

Zam is a troll.
I don't agree with Zam about Champ, but I don't agree with you here, either . . .

[Poet]

I don't agree with Zam about Champ, but I don't agree with you here, either . . .

I don't agree with you disagreeing with me!

[Ravage!!!]

I don't agree with Zam about Champ, but I don't agree with you here, either . . .

You don't think Zam starts threads and makes comments purely for the sake of starting arguments?

[Chef Zambini]

The most absurd part to any of zam's statements, is reading that "champ would do more for the defense at safety." Thats the dumbest thing he's said, and just keeps repeating it. It has no validity to it, is completely ignorant, and is completely opposite of what DCs and GMs have been going after for years. Especially in today's pass happy league, top corners are just that much MORE important.what evidence do you have to support this claim?
NONE !
its just your assertion !
you have no data to support yopur contention that GMS nad DCs value corners over safeties !
none !

[Chef Zambini]

as corner. champ easily avoided. as a corner, he is NOT it is that simple!
champ would be more INVOLVED defending a play instead of defending a single playerif he was a safety instead of a corner.
as a corner, champ can be avoided. as a safety champ can dictate who and where he plays and the QB will find it harder to avoid him.

[Davii]

what evidence do you have to support this claim?
NONE !
its just your assertion !
you have no data to support yopur contention that GMS nad DCs value corners over safeties !
none !

How about average salary? Would how much a certain position is paid equate to "value"?

Just a little searching shows that CBs average quite a bit higher pay than safety...

According to USA Today: CB (http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/football/nfl/salaries/position/CB/2009-10) and S (http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/football/nfl/salaries/position/S/2009)

You're just embarrassing yourself at this point.

[topscribe]

You don't think Zam starts threads and makes comments purely for the sake of starting arguments?
Some people probably thought I was a troll over the Orton issue, too.

Zam is Zam. He believes what he believes, and he debates intensely. I know it
is irritating to some people for a poster to have different ideas, but a few of
us do not walk in lockstep with the majority. Sorry.

[LTC Pain]

Some people probably thought I was a troll over the Orton issue, too.

Zam is Zam. He believes what he believes, and he debates intensely. I know it
is irritating to some people for a poster to have different ideas, but a few of
us do not walk in lockstep with the majority. Sorry.

I like reading your posts Top but debating intensely and repeating the same baseless, unsupported crap over an over ad nauseam are not the same. Zam fits in the latter.

[LTC Pain]

Some people probably thought I was a troll over the Orton issue, too.

Zam is Zam. He believes what he believes, and he debates intensely. I know it
is irritating to some people for a poster to have different ideas, but a few of
us do not walk in lockstep with the majority. Sorry.

I like reading your posts Top but debating intensely and repeating the same baseless, unsupported crap over and over ad nauseam are not the same. Zam fits in the latter.

[bcbronc]

And why i object when someone says he single handidly lost a game.

Except no one has EVER said that in the history of message boards so who gives a shit?


How about average salary? Would how much a certain position is paid equate to "value"?

Just a little searching shows that CBs average quite a bit higher pay than safety...

According to USA Today: CB (http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/football/nfl/salaries/position/CB/2009-10) and S (http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/football/nfl/salaries/position/S/2009)

You're just embarrassing yourself at this point.

Pay is determined by supply and demand NOT necesssarily how a DC values the position.

Corners generally need to be the premier athletes, and not all CBs would be good safeties (imo Champ would be). With all the spread sets we see in todays NFL teams need more CBs, which tend to come from the rarer physical specimens. Haven't confirmed this next point, but I feel its a safe assumption that most teams carry more CBs than Ss. If we assume the average breakdown is 6 CBs and 4 Ss, that would be an extra 64 CBs, a position that already requires a rarer skillset.

Therefore, the pay difference says nothing about value but merely results from increased demand and a smaller supply.

If anything, this is a reason to value safeties over corners because CBs pricetag is artificially inflated due to needing dime and dollar formations. An elite safety costs less than an elite CB AND has mre impact on a game.

[Dapper Dan]

I just wouldn't change anything. Our DBs look good right now, but I think our CBs would look awful if you tried to mess with anything.

[Day1BroncoFan]

Champ for safety pin!!!

[Ravage!!!]

If anything, this is a reason to value safeties over corners because CBs pricetag is artificially inflated due to needing dime and dollar formations. An elite safety costs less than an elite CB AND has mre impact on a game.

This is the incorrect statement that is continued to be made. A saftey does NOT have more impact of teh DCs that are game planning against the passing offenses. Having a corner that can take one of the WRs, by himself, is MORE impactful than a safety. Its been said time and time again by DCs and GMs on talk radio if you would just listen for it.

If safeties had "more" of an impact, then top athletes would be playing safety for teams, where they could make MORE of an impact. They aren't. Instead, those moved to safety are the top corners that have lost a step, or been injured enough not to play corner anymore. If safeties were such the "impact" that you and Zam say they are, why would DCs not move their corners to safeties sooner, rather than wait until they are older and slower?? Hell, I can take a 2nd corner and move him to safety and he would be a better athlete than safeties, but they don't do it... why is that if they make more of an impact on the game??

The answer is very simple and obvious, they DON'T make more of an impact on the game.

[Davii]

Except no one has EVER said that in the history of message boards so who gives a shit?



Pay is determined by supply and demand NOT necesssarily how a DC values the position.

Corners generally need to be the premier athletes, and not all CBs would be good safeties (imo Champ would be). With all the spread sets we see in todays NFL teams need more CBs, which tend to come from the rarer physical specimens. Haven't confirmed this next point, but I feel its a safe assumption that most teams carry more CBs than Ss. If we assume the average breakdown is 6 CBs and 4 Ss, that would be an extra 64 CBs, a position that already requires a rarer skillset.

Therefore, the pay difference says nothing about value but merely results from increased demand and a smaller supply.

If anything, this is a reason to value safeties over corners because CBs pricetag is artificially inflated due to needing dime and dollar formations. An elite safety costs less than an elite CB AND has mre impact on a game.

Even by this flawed conjecture a CB would be more valuable. Since they are high in demand and less supply if you got hold of a good one you certainly wouldn't move them to a position that is easier to fill.

Thanks for defeating your own argument.

[Day1BroncoFan]

But, But...

[Dapper Dan]

But, But...

What what. In the butt.

[bcbronc]

Rav and Dav,

Not every corner would make a good safety. Its not as easy as just moving a guy and he'll be good. Just like not every WR would be a good TE, or every OT would be a good OG. Different skill sets.

I mean Revis and Primetime are both wonderul corners, but I don't think either would make good safeties. I do feel Champ could make a successful transition, but MOST corners couldn't.

And Rav, are you familiar with the term "appeal to authority"? Its a type of logical fallacy, and as you know logical fallacies do not make sound arguments. Go back 20-30 years and you'd have "every" GM and coach agreeing that a black man couldn't be a QB. Not comparing the two situations, just highlighting why you can't use your perceived feelings about other GMs or coaches as the basis for an argument.

We've been through all this already, but I'm still waiting for someone to find me a great or Superbowll winning defense with stronger CBs than safeties. And no Rav, Seattle doesn't fit that criteria. :lol:

[Ravage!!!]

I see. So the DCs just "Think" that a corner is more valuable to their defensive schemes and needs, but because you SAY that safety is a much bigger impact on a team, then that shows that he DCs and GMs are just "old fashioned" and can't see how things REALLY are?

So you believe that your line of thinking is just so much more forward thinking than those that actually build defensive systems, and draft, in the NFL....because you believe that no team that won a NFL SUper Bowl has better corners?

Couldn't I say that the Bucks had better corners than safety? Lynch certainly wasn't a very good coverage safety, but we know that Barber was one hell of a coverage corner. Or do we not count that because it's using the Tampa Two defense?

I could very well say that no great defense has never been without a great MLB. So going by your logic, if it wasn't for a great MLB on the team, the safety wouldn't amount to much at all. Prove me wrong on that.

[MOtorboat]

Rav and Dav,

Not every corner would make a good safety. Its not as easy as just moving a guy and he'll be good. Just like not every WR would be a good TE, or every OT would be a good OG. Different skill sets.

I mean Revis and Primetime are both wonderul corners, but I don't think either would make good safeties. I do feel Champ could make a successful transition, but MOST corners couldn't.

And Rav, are you familiar with the term "appeal to authority"? Its a type of logical fallacy, and as you know logical fallacies do not make sound arguments. Go back 20-30 years and you'd have "every" GM and coach agreeing that a black man couldn't be a QB. Not comparing the two situations, just highlighting why you can't use your perceived feelings about other GMs or coaches as the basis for an argument.

We've been through all this already, but I'm still waiting for someone to find me a great or Superbowll winning defense with stronger CBs than safeties. And no Rav, Seattle doesn't fit that criteria. :lol:

I guess Charles Woodson doesn't count. The Ravens corners are just as good as their safeties.

Tracy Porter or Drren Sharper? Who made the game winning play? Ike Taylor is a very good cornerback. True. He's not as good Polamalu if you're rating them against the other corners/safeties in the league.

But come on. Two years. I only had to go back two years to find a team whose corners were as key, or more, than the safeties to the team.

[Ravage!!!]

And Rav, are you familiar with the term "appeal to authority"? Its a type of logical fallacy, and as you know logical fallacies do not make sound arguments. Go back 20-30 years and you'd have "every" GM and coach agreeing that a black man couldn't be a QB. Not comparing the two situations, just highlighting why you can't use your perceived feelings about other GMs or coaches as the basis for an argument.

More more thing bc, since you brought this up. This is completely different in all aspecs from your example. Football hasn't changed over the last 40 years.

The routes are still the same, the offense, the defenses, the blocking are all the same. How to be a man defense vs a zone defense.. how to play man up, and how to play zone are the same today as they were 40 years ago. People thought that the "wildcat" offense was new and inventive, and it was just a rename of the single-wing from 50 years ago. McDaniels bragged that we were going to do things that "we've never seen before".. and it was shown that his offense was derived and run back in the 50s. Nothing is different.

Today the players are bigger, stronger, faster... the QBs are better throwers and the NFL has rules that make that easier, but the GAME itself is the same as its always been. Just like baseball. The game is the same, but the players are certainly better today than they were back in the '20s.

The 34, 43, 52, or 25.. has all been seen. The pistol offenses and the run-n-shoot are coming back, but jsut being called different names...but we've seen them all before. How the QBs read defenses may be faster than they used to do, but the reads are the same as they always made. The reads Manning makes vs a corner or safety to determine defensive coverages are the same that Len Dawson made during the 1969 Super Bowl.

Concepts of playing the game of football has not changed. DCs aren't saying that a top corner is more valuable to a football team because its the "old way of thinking"..they are saying it because they know that what a top corner can do by allowing so many OTHER things to be done with the rest of their defense. Things that they can't do simply because they have a good FS or SS. I know you are a very bright football guy. I believe you to be one of the best posters on the board, but don't think for a moment that a corner is only "stuck to the side of the field while safeties can go to both."

So when I see that DCs and GMs are commenting that top corners are more valuable to a defense, you have to see how that has more validity than Zam's minimal line of thinking that "well the safety is in the middle of the field, thus is better." Doesn't work that way, and thats not simply "old fashioned" line of thinking. Thats conceptually incorrect.

[dogfish]

right. . .

safety's more important than corner. . .

that's why most years, three to five corners come off the draft board before the first safety. . .

it's also why the franchise tag is higher for corners. . . yep, makes great sense. . . :lol:

[MOtorboat]

right. . .

safety's more important than corner. . .

that's why most years, three to five corners come off the draft board before the first safety. . .

it's also why the franchise tag is higher for corners. . . yep, makes great sense. . . :lol:

It is pretty funny, isn't it, dog?

[chazoe60]

I agree with Zam on about .00005% of his football opinions but you guys are way too harsh on him. He's a good dude, just out there with his football takes.

[Poet]

I agree with Zam on about .00005% of his football opinions but you guys are way too harsh on him. He's a good dude, just out there with his football takes.

No.

[chazoe60]

No.

Yes

[MOtorboat]

Yes

Not when he brings up Champ Bailey.

When he brings up Champ Bailey and makes these stupid arguments, he's absolutely a troll.

[Poet]

Yes

No.

[broncosinindy]

Baiely is showing signsthat he is human. Hopefully he can play forever

[JPPT1974]

Let Bailey play whatever position he wants to play cause he's Champ Bailey!

[Dapper Dan]

Let Bailey play whatever position he wants to play cause he's Champ Bailey!

I read this in Samuel L Jackson's voice.

[Simple Jaded]

I read this in Samuel L Jackson's voice.

"Normally, both your asses would be dead as ******* fried chicken, but you happen to pull this shit while I'm in a transitional period so I don't wanna kill you, I wanna help you".......

[Chef Zambini]

Zam is a troll.i didnt start this thread. I aint the one who pulled the fishing boat out of the dock and started chummiong the waters with eroneous champ quotes.
somebody else went trolling. I am just the innocent, yet highly intelligent dolphin that got caught in the net.

[Chef Zambini]

How about average salary? Would how much a certain position is paid equate to "value"?

Just a little searching shows that CBs average quite a bit higher pay than safety...

According to USA Today: CB (http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/football/nfl/salaries/position/CB/2009-10) and S (http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/football/nfl/salaries/position/S/2009)

You're just embarrassing yourself at this point.oh yes because salary is the singular undisputable measure of a players VALUE !
thats why BALL makes more money than either decker or D. Thomas, he is so much more valuable than either of those two disposables !
BJ upton is the most valuable atlanta brave too !

and look at those morons in baltimore and pittsburg who are one of the few teams who do pay their safeites MORE than they pay their corners!
those steelers and ravens obviously dont know shit about defensive football !

[Chef Zambini]

I read this in Samuel L Jackson's voice.its even better in a Vingh Rhaimes voice !

[Poet]

Shut up, faggot.

[Chef Zambini]

corner is a skill/ talent/ ATHLETIC POSITION
great corners are BORN, not made.
safties, on the other hand, require a football mensa and intuition. great safeties are MADE, they must be developed, and they can only be best utilized by DCs who can utilize the smarts needed for the role!
do you guys think LYNCH was a great safety because of his great skill set?
of course not, he was a former QB and his instincts and football mensa took him to the ball!
(and yes he brought the wood with him!)

I pay champ a HUGE COMPLIMENT when I suggest he can be more effective at safety!

because he is already an outstanding corner, yet in that capacity, offenses can just IGNORE him
avoid him !
does anyone dare dispute thaT CHAMP GETS IGNORED PLAY AFTER PLAY game after game?
as a safety champ can move to the ball, use his instincs and football mensa to bring him to the ball, to make a play, instead of finding himself on the wrong side of the field covering a guy who uis essentially a decoy !

[Chef Zambini]

Shut up, faggot.

How can I compete with such clever wit?
your brilliance and clever word play is too much for me, I surrender to your intellect.

[DenBronx]

Some people probably thought I was a troll over the Orton issue, too.

Zam is Zam. He believes what he believes, and he debates intensely. I know it
is irritating to some people for a poster to have different ideas, but a few of
us do not walk in lockstep with the majority. Sorry.



I dont think you were a troll....just cantankerous.

:laugh:

[Davii]

Hey Zam, you do know what "average" represents right?

[DenBronx]

Clearly Champ is the troll.....its his fault fans are fighting on a message board.

[Dapper Dan]

How can I compete with such clever wit?
your brilliance and clever word play is too much for me, I surrender to your intellect.

Hey sexy. He was talking to me.

[bcbronc]

I see. So the DCs just "Think" that a corner is more valuable to their defensive schemes and needs, but because you SAY that safety is a much bigger impact on a team, then that shows that he DCs and GMs are just "old fashioned" and can't see how things REALLY are?

I disagree that DCs all think corner is more valuable. In fact I think it a completely ludacris assertion that all of any coaching body agree on any one thing, except maybe the importance of QB. Ask the 32 current DCs if they'd rather have an All-Pro corner or an All-Pro safety, they'd all say "both" and then some would say "safety". And I think in 5 years even more will say safety.

But it has nothing to do with me "saying" anything. Just my perspective. Take it or leave it, I don't give a shit. It's just internet football talk.


So you believe that your line of thinking is just so much more forward thinking than those that actually build defensive systems, and draft, in the NFL....because you believe that no team that won a NFL SUper Bowl has better corners?

Couldn't I say that the Bucks had better corners than safety? Lynch certainly wasn't a very good coverage safety, but we know that Barber was one hell of a coverage corner. Or do we not count that because it's using the Tampa Two defense?


I haven't said anything about "coverage" safeties, just safeties in general. Who is better, Lynch or Barber? Tough call, both are HOF players. Maybe the edge goes to CB here, maybe S, either way it's splitting hairs, both were All-Pro the year they won and it was a generational defense, no one player made it that. If that's your best example, it's not very convincing.



I could very well say that no great defense has never been without a great MLB. So going by your logic, if it wasn't for a great MLB on the team, the safety wouldn't amount to much at all. Prove me wrong on that.

Who was the starting MLB for that TB defence you just referenced? (Answer: Sheldon Quarles. Great, or greatest?) I wouldn't say Pittsburgh's recent defense has had great ILBs. Foote and Timmons are both good, but would you call them great? I wouldn't. So off the top of my head I named two of the all-time great defenses that didn't have great MLBs.

Now you name me ONE Superbowl champion or "great" defense that is clearly superior at CB than S. By "clearly superior" I don't mean an All-Pro at each position.



I guess Charles Woodson doesn't count. The Ravens corners are just as good as their safeties.

I'm not sure I follow you're point. When GB won, Nick Collins was an All-Pro and Woodson got hurt at half. Since Collins has been gone, GB's defense hasn't been anywhere near as stout. The Ravens going into this season maybe their CB play had closed the gap, but the Raven's don't have the same defense anymore. Still good at keeping the ball out of the endzone, but bottom third in yards allowed. Hard to say too much about them this year because they've been so dinged up, but in years past they were starting guys like Foxworth.

That's if you mean recently. If you mean the year they won, Chris McAllister was good, but didn't even make the pro-bowl the year the Ravens won. Rod Woodson did, and I don't think many would argue that Chris McAllister--even though he had a couple of great years--was a better CB than Woodson was a S.


Tracy Porter or Drren Sharper? Who made the game winning play? Ike Taylor is a very good cornerback. True. He's not as good Polamalu if you're rating them against the other corners/safeties in the league.

Wait, you're going to boil everything down to one play and say "see!" Seriously?? Harper and Sharper were pro-bowlers, Sharper also an All-Pro that year. Porter was neither. Ike Taylor? Ya, he's a good corner no doubt. But there's no way you can say Pittsburg's corners are more important to their success than their safeties. Remember Tebow to DT last year? Had both starting CBs, but their "other" safety couldn't play.....


But come on. Two years. I only had to go back two years to find a team whose corners were as key, or more, than the safeties to the team.

hahahaha ya one play means the guy is "as key, or more". I mean if you really think Porter was as important to NO's defense as their safeties, and Ike Taylor is as important to Pitt's defense as Polamalu and Clark, then there's not a whole lotta point discussing this.


right. . .

safety's more important than corner. . .

that's why most years, three to five corners come off the draft board before the first safety. . .

it's also why the franchise tag is higher for corners. . . yep, makes great sense. . . :lol:

Already been through this dog. Supply and demand for a rarer skill set. Cost isn't the same as value, and the game's a changin'. I mean if we go back 3 years and start talking about taking a SAM at #2, the reaction wouldn't even be melt-down, it would just be complete dismissal. NO ONE takes a SAM #2. And it wasn't that long ago that no one took TEs in the top 5. Or OGs or Cs in the first round.

And saying "3 to 5 CBs come off the board before the first safety" isn't even close to being correct.

2012: Morris Clairborn CB (6), Mark Barron S (7)
2011: Patrick Peterson CB (5), Prince Amakamura CB (19), Jimmy Smith CB (21)
2010: Eric Berry S (5), Joe Haden (7), Earl Thomas S (14)
2009: Malcolm Jenkins S (14), Vontae Davis (25)

You get the point. Carries on like that, 2008 more CBs early but still safeties in the first round, 2007 LaRon Landry the only DB in the top 10 and taken before Revis.

Besides, even if more CBs are taken in the first round, that doesn't equate to how the players are valued. Unless you're also saying Shannahan didn't value RBs or OL because he didn't use 1st round picks on em.

I dunno, facts are facts and fact is the league is starting to value safety more and more. Which of course is not the same as saying elite corners are useless yadda yadda yadda.

[Poet]

Supply and demand for rarer skill set. To me, that kind of sums it up for me.

[MOtorboat]

I dunno, facts are facts and fact is the league is starting to value safety more and more.

Based on?

What facts?

[Day1BroncoFan]

If we make Champ a safety we'd have to change his initials too.

[Chef Zambini]

If we make Champ a safety we'd have to change his initials too.I think this is the best post of the entire thread but we will have to wait for HOT CARL to get an official ruling.

[Ravage!!!]

I think the fact that teams are able to move old, injured, or corners that no long have the "skills" to play corner anymore, says MUCH MUCH more about how hard it is to find good corners as opposed to finding good safeties. If you can move guys that "don't have it anymore" from one position, to fill another, that says a lot.

its like moving the good hitter on the team to play 1st base. Doesn't need to have a overly good glove, but gets them on the field. Safety can be filled by guys that are old and/or injured, and this is the position that is more valuable than a top corner?? :confused:

[Simple Jaded]

Safety isn't even in the Top5 of most valued positions, hell, it's probably just above SLB and LDE in the defensive pecking order. Teams take S high in the draft because they think the player is the exception to the rule.......

[MOtorboat]

The Steelers have the No. 1 defense and they haven't had either Ryan Clark or Troy Polamalu play in the same game. They've only played 7 combined games this season, out of a possible 22.

[Ravage!!!]

'm still curious as to this "safeties have more impact" than corners comment. I'm guessing because you hear the name of a safety more often, its perceived that he's "doing more" for the defense??

If a corner is doing a good job, you rarely hear his name. If a corner is doing a Great job, then you don't hear his name at all. Yet, somehow the safety is having more of an impact than a top corner taking away 1 weapon off the field?

I remember having this discussion the year before last, and I was on the side of moving Champ to safety.... then I did my research and was forced to change my perspective to fit the facts of the game.

[MOtorboat]

Denver has the No. 4 defense in the league and most consider safety a "hole" on the team.

[Dapper Dan]

Denver has the No. 4 defense in the league and most consider safety a "hole" on the team.

Yeah. Well. We would be number one if we move Champ to safety. ;)

[Poet]

The impact thing is a defense by defense thing. On the Steelers, yeah. Ravens, in my opinion, yeah. Bengals? No. Broncos, no. Giants? Having the TWO safeties on the field is key.

There's not a universal rule, but it's pretty clear that if you break it down team by team, corner is more important.

[weazel]

That is a very bad headline. Champ didn't say he NEVER plans to play safety.
He even corrected a reporter in no uncertain words, who implied that he said
that. Champ said he doesn't have plans to play safety, as in right now. He
made it very clear that he has not closed the door on that.

I'm glad I read this before I posted.

[SR]

Just wanted to add this:


Bucs WR Vincent Jackson didn't have his first catch against Bailey in man coverage until there were two minutes left in the third quarter.

Read more: Broncos clinch AFC West with win over Tampa Bay; Manning throws 3 TDs - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22111610/broncos-clinch-afc-west-win-tampa-bay-manning#ixzz2Dzld1ubU
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

[weazel]

Yep. I posted right after you did and this was exactly what I was thinking when I was typing mine. If you didn't watch the game, or can't remember what happened, don't post things as if they're facts. There are lies, damned lies, and statistics...

people like to think they can sum a football game up with a boxscore, they don't realize this isn't baseball.

[Ravage!!!]

That is a very bad headline. Champ didn't say he NEVER plans to play safety.
He even corrected a reporter in no uncertain words, who implied that he said
that. Champ said he doesn't have plans to play safety, as in right now. He
made it very clear that he has not closed the door on that.

Good post and needed to be posted.

I think Champ WILL be moved to safety, eventually. That might be next year, or ot might be the year after. But its goign to be after Champs shows that he can't cover WRs in this league, and that certainly wasnt't this season ..OTHER.. than the speedster in Cinci. But few can take him on 1-n-1, and thats a LOT to ask of any DB.

[SR]

Good post and needed to be posted.

I think Champ WILL be moved to safety, eventually. That might be next year, or ot might be the year after. But its goign to be after Champs shows that he can't cover WRs in this league, and that certainly wasnt't this season ..OTHER.. than the speedster in Cinci. But few can take him on 1-n-1, and thats a LOT to ask of any DB.

Even the announcers a couple of weeks ago when against KC were saying how effortless Champ's coverage on Bowe looked.