Runningbacks

[cmc0605]

Everyone take off your fan hat and put on your coaches hat. What would you do in the next few games regarding the distribution of playing time at runningback?

My thought is this- Willis McGahee is a great back, but what makes him so good is what he was doing in the earlier parts of the season...picking up yards after contact and getting "chunk" runs (not big, not short, but in the 5-15 yard range). He's not going to burn a defense, but I think his ability would be more valuable in December and the playoffs when defense are a bit more tired and the weather is cold. Not to mention, as coach, I want to send him a lesson for his fumbles. Those few fumbles didn't matter today, but in a playoff game against Houston or New England, we lose.

I play McGahee, Ronnie Hillman and (crucify me) Knowshon Moreno. Moreno has been in the dog house long enough and the way I see it, a big part of our offense is throwing to RBs, and Moreno is better than McGahee in this arena. He may not have lived up to his #1 pick status, but he is still a good option, and has made his share of plays in Denver. Hillman I'd like to see more...so far it's meh for me...not good but not bad. But he's earned some reps. This distribution is not ideal, but it's what we have.

Oh, and I love Holliday in the backfield. It's obvious what he's there for, and he won't be taking handoffs or blocking, so we'd have to be creative. But he is lightning quick and already looks like one of the more dangerous players in the league when he has some open field in front of him. I'd throw him back there on occasion next to a more traditional RB and try to set up a few screens.

[dogfish]

Runningbacks

we need better ones. . .

not really much we can do this year besides roll with some combination of mcgahee and hillman. . . i do LOVE seeing holliday get some snaps as a scatback-- he's far more truly explosive than hillman. . .

[bcbronc]

Have to wonder how many hits Holliday can handle though. The guys tiny, and KOR duties can be punishing. He had 12 touches today, tbh not sure if he can handle that game after game.

McGahee has to be better with ball security, but he's still the only workhorse we've got. Ball still gets a handful of snaps in the backfield, but doesn't really seem to be in the picture any longer. But he does do things on special teams that neither Moreno nor Hilman do. Until that's replaced elsewhere, it's hard to get Moreno back into the top 45, especially if they're going to give Holliday some snaps.

Our backfield is what it is at this point. It would be nice to have a Tolbert-type tweener on the roster so we could pound someone other than McGahee between the tackles. When the weather gets cold and we're looking to ground and pound to kill the clock, it's going to be a bit tense seeing McGahee as the only option.

[Simple Jaded]

Yeah, I'm not so sure Moreno is a better receiver than McGahee.......

[sneakers]

Are you going to trust anyone but McGahee with pass protection?

[dogfish]

Have to wonder how many hits Holliday can handle though. The guys tiny, and KOR duties can be punishing. He had 12 touches today, tbh not sure if he can handle that game after game.

we shall see. . . sproles has held up very well in a comparable role, but is a little heavier than holliday. . .

as long as we dress him, i'd use him as much as we can until he shows signs of not being able to handle it. . .


McGahee has to be better with ball security, but he's still the only workhorse we've got. Ball still gets a handful of snaps in the backfield, but doesn't really seem to be in the picture any longer. But he does do things on special teams that neither Moreno nor Hilman do. Until that's replaced elsewhere, it's hard to get Moreno back into the top 45, especially if they're going to give Holliday some snaps.

agreed on all counts. . . glad to see you being realistic about moreno, now that it's rubbed in your face. . . :heh:


Our backfield is what it is at this point. It would be nice to have a Tolbert-type tweener on the roster so we could pound someone other than McGahee between the tackles. When the weather gets cold and we're looking to ground and pound to kill the clock, it's going to be a bit tense seeing McGahee as the only option.

again, agreed across the board. . . between mcgahee's fumbling, and status as our only between the tackles grinder, those are two of the big reasons i'm fine with seeing them give holliday some work back thur. . . we absolutely would benefit hugely from adding a tolbert/leron mcclain hybrid type of back. . . and IMO it goes without question that one of our top three or four picks next year has to be a balanced tailback who has the size/speed/ability combo to be our starter by his second year. . .

[dogfish]

Are you going to trust anyone but McGahee with pass protection?

hillman has shown some flashes. . . willis IS preferable given his experience-- and the value of this particular quarterback-- but i think hillman is progressing pretty well in an area where rookies typically struggle. . . the fact that we've expanded his role on third downs suggests to me that the coaching staff must be getting more comfortable with him in that role as well. . .

[sneakers]

hillman has shown some flashes. . . willis IS preferable given his experience-- and the value of this particular quarterback-- but i think hillman is progressing pretty well in an area where rookies typically struggle. . . the fact that we've expanded his role on third downs suggests to me that the coaching staff must be getting more comfortable with him in that role as well. . .

I haven't been paying attention, but I wonder if they bring him in for 3rd down plays only on plays in which he runs a pattern and doesn't block....???

[BroncoNut]

I think we need to stick with McGahee as the feature ground and pound back. Maybe rotate hillman and/or Moreno in there to give him some breaks. Geesh, I dont' know, I like Willis overall, but this fumble thing is really a distress. I hold my breath when his services are being utilized

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Willis has gotten to the point that every time he gets past the LOS with the ball, my butthole puckers just like it did when Plummer/Tebow started their frantic scrambling to "make a play" which normally resulted in an INT, or pretty much anytime Orton dropped back to pass. All I do is think, "Protect the ball! Don't fumble, idiot!" People get on Moreno for fumbling, but McGahee has already surpassed Moreno's worst season total (2009 rookie year where he had 4). McGahee already has 5 in 9 games. That's just too many.

Hillman, for all the love he gets, is really nothing special. He's nowhere near as "fast" as people give him credit for, and he sure isn't going to break many tackles at 5'9" 190lbs. The blocking has to be darned near perfect for him to get any yards. Yesterday, he had 5 carries for 5 total yards and the one TD (which was a 5 yard run) where he did step out of a tackle. So essentially, he had 4 runs for 0 yards and one 5 yard run. Unfortunately, it appears he's not the guy who can handle the load. He was probably drafted to be a 3rd down back, but we really need someone who can start right now.

The bottom line is, McGahee is starting to become a liability out there. Hillman just isn't the #1 RB type. Moreno is in the doghouse for whatever reason. That leaves Lance Ball? I might actually consider starting Ball over McGahee vs SD to send a message. There is just no excuse for McGahee's fumbling. As others have said, fumbles will cost us in the playoffs (like they did vs NE). I'm not saying Ball should be the starter, but it might force McGahee to re-evaluate his fumbling problem if he is forced to split carries with Ball for a quarter, a game, or a half. The coaches have to do something. McGahee just doesn't seem to be getting the message, nor does he seem to care. He's not protecting the ball nor is he putting two hands on it before contact.

[CoachChaz]

Michael Dyer please

[Hawgdriver]

we need better ones. . .

not really much we can do this year besides roll with some combination of mcgahee and hillman. . . i do LOVE seeing holliday get some snaps as a scatback-- he's far more truly explosive than hillman. . .

I'm no expert, and I'd love to see Holliday on a screen, but I'd wager pass protection isn't his forte. Might be good for like a play or two.

[Hawgdriver]

I thought I'd get some perspective on homeboy's fumbling problem. Maybe it's not that bad, right? Well. It is that bad.

McGahee this season fumbles once per 37 touches. His career average is once per 77 touches, about the same as Adrian Peterson's career average. For comparison, Steven Jackson of the Rams fumbles at a rate of once per 116 touches. AP's worst season was a fumble every 43 touches.

Time to give more touches to Hillman.

[BroncoNut]

I'm no expert, and I'd love to see Holliday on a screen, but I'd wager pass protection isn't his forte. Might be good for like a play or two.

I guess I never considered Mr. Holliday as the moviestar/hollywood type, but it might be interesting now that you mention it. Like in an action or drama perhaps?

[Hawgdriver]

I guess I never considered Mr. Holliday as the moviestar/hollywood type, but it might be interesting now that you mention it. Like in an action or drama perhaps?

Was thinking more of zombie apocalypse type thing, but maybe that's not the right platform for him to really share his gift?

[Chef Zambini]

you are so clever. this holliday kid can ake a hit. I dont like his cavalier attitude about ball security, and i dont know if he has the smarts to read a blitz, let alone block an assignment.
willy mac needs to carry around a ball all day, and teammates shoud be encouraged to swat at it whenever they want.
the answer is more hillman, not moreno.

[SR]

you are so clever. this holliday kid can ake a hit. I dont like his cavalier attitude about ball security, and i dont know if he has the smarts to read a blitz, let alone block an assignment.
willy mac needs to carry around a ball all day, and teammates shoud be encouraged to swat at it whenever they want.
the answer is more hillman, not moreno.

What the hell are you talking about? The fact that you think all that about Hillman makes me believe he'll be a-okay.

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[Northman]

What the hell are you talking about? The fact that you think all that about Hillman makes me believe he'll be a-okay.

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Well, this is the same guy who said that Foles was a worthy pick because he was already contributing to the Eagles. He contributed to two turnovers yesterday thats for sure. lol

[turftoad]

We need to do something for future. Not now but in the offseason.

McGhee is old and you can tell he's wearing down. We need to find ways to rest him and keep him primed for the end of the season run and hopefully a strong playoff push.

Sorry if I don't see Hillman as the answer for the full work load back duties. I think he's a change of pace guy. I hope I'm wrong.

We've got a good team right now. We just need to keep working on the trench's and draft another RB.
I agree with some here. Let Hillman do his thing and bring Moreno back in for a while and see what happens while keeping McGahee fresh for the end of the season.

[CoachChaz]

Well, this is the same guy who said that Foles was a worthy pick because he was already contributing to the Eagles. He contributed to two turnovers yesterday thats for sure. lol

No offense, but one of them was the result of a dropped pass and the other the result of a horrific O-line. I'm not saying Foles is the answer right now or that we should have drafted him...but outside of forces he had no control over...he looked pretty good against a top defense.

[Nomad]

we need better ones. . .

not really much we can do this year besides roll with some combination of mcgahee and hillman. . . i do LOVE seeing holliday get some snaps as a scatback-- he's far more truly explosive than hillman. . .

I believe he'd be effective on end-around plays.

[Dapper Dan]

Hopefully he'll just stop fumbling. DT did. Or did I just jinx DT? Dang it.

I'm not insulting McGahee as a RB. But when you get to where you've been playing this long, shouldn't you know what adjustments to make to fix issues like this? He never had a real problem for fumbling, as far as I know. Someone had the stats, and it was comparable to other top backs. I'm just curious as to why this season is so different. Isn't it a little late for a sophomore slump?

[turftoad]

No offense, but one of them was the result of a dropped pass and the other the result of a horrific O-line. I'm not saying Foles is the answer right now or that we should have drafted him...but outside of forces he had no control over...he looked pretty good against a top defense.

Plus... Being thrown in in the middle of a game.

[NightTerror218]

Yeah, I'm not so sure Moreno is a better receiver than McGahee.......

he is better, he has better hands and have you seen some of the drops Mcgahee has this season?

[BroncoNut]

you are so clever. this holliday kid can ake a hit. I dont like his cavalier attitude about ball security, and i dont know if he has the smarts to read a blitz, let alone block an assignment.
willy mac needs to carry around a ball all day, and teammates shoud be encouraged to swat at it whenever they want.
the answer is more hillman, not moreno.

man, I'm glad you're not my football coach Zam. You are a hardass

[BroncoNut]

We need to do something for future. Not now but in the offseason.

McGhee is old and you can tell he's wearing down. We need to find ways to rest him and keep him primed for the end of the season run and hopefully a strong playoff push.

Sorry if I don't see Hillman as the answer for the full work load back duties. I think he's a change of pace guy. I hope I'm wrong.

We've got a good team right now. We just need to keep working on the trench's and draft another RB.
I agree with some here. Let Hillman do his thing and bring Moreno back in for a while and see what happens while keeping McGahee fresh for the end of the season.

I think Hillman is just a flavor of the month. I dont' see him as a long term solution. He really needs to grow up

[Chef Zambini]

this is not the foles thread.

hillman, holliday,mcgehee.
2 are rookies and one is fumbling like a rookie.
I like willy mac, he is on my fantasy team, i start him almost every week !
I have high hopes for HILLMAN, he has EARNED his playing time!


Holiday?
he is dynamic, he is exciting.
but he has ball control issues !
he acted like a PUNK dropping the ball before crossing the goal line!
and that ball is always coming out when he carries it. he is TOUGH and he has survived from big hits, but he is RAW on his football skills, and he needs some FOCUS on ball control and the rules of the game!
he let a ball roll around in the end zone on a kick off as if he was unaware that it was a free baLL
the special teams coach needs to go over the rules with this kid before he costs us a game !
remember the kick-off with him and Ball staring at a ball on the ground at the goal line?
this kid is a sprinter playing in a game unfamiliar to him !
all this TALENT, there has to be a REASON why kubiak let him go !
bronc fans consider yourselves forwarned, holiday is a mental disaster waiting to happen if they dont coaCH HIM UP !
we dont need moreno, we need more hillman and a more disciplined mcgehee !

[Dapper Dan]

I think Hillman is just a flavor of the month. I dont' see him as a long term solution. He really needs to grow up

I think he will. He just turned 21 recently. He has a huge upside, in my opinion.

Or unless we keep him away from Knowshon and DJ, he'll stay sauced.

[smith49]

Hillman, for all the love he gets, is really nothing special. He's nowhere near as "fast" as people give him credit for, and he sure isn't going to break many tackles at 5'9" 190lbs. The blocking has to be darned near perfect for him to get any yards. Yesterday, he had 5 carries for 5 total yards and the one TD (which was a 5 yard run) where he did step out of a tackle. So essentially, he had 4 runs for 0 yards and one 5 yard run. Unfortunately, it appears he's not the guy who can handle the load. He was probably drafted to be a 3rd down back, but we really need someone who can start right now.


-----I couldn't disagree more. Hillman isn't Terrell Davis or anything, but he has been solid for a very very young rookie. He ran the ball when the opposition knew we were done passing. Besides, you can't sight 5 run plays and make a conclusion about him. Your assessment of his speed is vastly off and if he can't break a tackle you better go watch his five yard TD run again. I agree that he may not be an every down back, but he's still been solid when asked to carry the rock which isn't very often.

I also don't think Willis is a liability. Yah he definitely needs to get control of the fumbling, but he's been a very solid runner for us.

[Chef Zambini]

man, I'm glad you're not my football coach Zam. You are a hardasswhen that talented ass-clown in philly dropped the ball deliberatly before he crossed the goal line i considered him a punk. why should i consider alyone else who does the same thing any different?
as i just posted, HOLLIDAY has demonstrated, at the very least, a lack of knowledge regarding the rules of the game and especially his discipline as a kick/ punt returner.
I PRAY that his coach is going over the rules with this kid !

[NightTerror218]

when that talented ass-clown in philly dropped the ball deliberatly before he crossed the goal line i considered him a punk. why should i consider alyone else who does the same thing any different?
as i just posted, HOLLIDAY has demonstrated, at the very least, a lack of knowledge regarding the rules of the game and especially his discipline as a kick/ punt returner.
I PRAY that his coach is going over the rules with this kid !

you young players are not allowed to make mistakes and learn. Gotcha, they have to come out of college perfect and at full potential.

[Dapper Dan]

Hillman is getting nearly 4 yards per carry and nearly 6 yards per catch. He has 1 fumble and no dropped passes. Nothing special, but nothing bad. He will improve.

[cmc0605]

this is not the foles thread.

hillman, holliday,mcgehee.
2 are rookies and one is fumbling like a rookie.
I like willy mac, he is on my fantasy team, i start him almost every week !
I have high hopes for HILLMAN, he has EARNED his playing time!


Holiday?
he is dynamic, he is exciting.
but he has ball control issues !
he acted like a PUNK dropping the ball before crossing the goal line!
and that ball is always coming out when he carries it. he is TOUGH and he has survived from big hits, but he is RAW on his football skills, and he needs some FOCUS on ball control and the rules of the game!
he let a ball roll around in the end zone on a kick off as if he was unaware that it was a free baLL
the special teams coach needs to go over the rules with this kid before he costs us a game !
remember the kick-off with him and Ball staring at a ball on the ground at the goal line?
this kid is a sprinter playing in a game unfamiliar to him !
all this TALENT, there has to be a REASON why kubiak let him go !
bronc fans consider yourselves forwarned, holiday is a mental disaster waiting to happen if they dont coaCH HIM UP !
we dont need moreno, we need more hillman and a more disciplined mcgehee !

Oh Lord. Not even sure to begin with this.

We'd all love a team full of "coach-type players" like Manning or Brandon Stokley. The sad fact is that not all players in football are there because they have lots of brains. Others are young and make dumb mistakes. That includes pre-mature and too much celebration. You don't know Holliday as a person. And if DeSean Jackson is a "punk" (which I won't disagree with) it's certainly not because he once fumbled the ball before crossing the goal line. Remember in the playoff game against New England when Champ Bailey returned a pick 6 and "slowed down" while getting hit by Ben Watson...does that mean he's a punk? And how do we know that Holliday has ball security issues? Because he fumbled the first punt he took in Denver?

Also, the kickoff issue was on Lance Ball, not Holliday.

Get real.

[Chef Zambini]

you young players are not allowed to make mistakes and learn. Gotcha, they have to come out of college perfect and at full potential.

respectfully,
it is NOT unreasonable to EXPECT a punt and kick returner to know the RULES as they pertain to fielding punts and kicks!
JUDGEMENT, thats another matter.
does he fair catch a bll on the 7 or let it go, hoping it makes the end-zone. thats another matter.
but letting a KICK_OFF drop on the 5
or watching it roll around in the nd zone without even coming close to the ball?
thats inexcusable for a kid playing pop warner!
and you have to balme the COACHES in that situation !
I honestly watch the reaction of holliday in his role as a filder of a kick and have to wonder if he really knows and understands the RULES !

[Chef Zambini]

Oh Lord. Not even sure to begin with this.

We'd all love a team full of "coach-type players" like Manning or Brandon Stokley. The sad fact is that not all players in football are there because they have lots of brains. Others are young and make dumb mistakes. That includes pre-mature and too much celebration. You don't know Holliday as a person. And if DeSean Jackson is a "punk" (which I won't disagree with) it's certainly not because he once fumbled the ball before crossing the goal line. Remember in the playoff game against New England when Champ Bailey returned a pick 6 and "slowed down" while getting hit by Ben Watson...does that mean he's a punk? And how do we know that Holliday has ball security issues? Because he fumbled the first punt he took in Denver?

Also, the kickoff issue was on Lance Ball, not Holliday.

Get real.

champ was a punk on that play, watching himself on the big screen !

I have seen the ball leave holidays hands a half dozen times, he is a fumble waiting to happen!
he is TUFF,
he is fearless,
he is determined
' he is talented.
is he knowledgeable?
big question !

[NightTerror218]

respectfully,
it is NOT unreasonable to EXPECT a punt and kick returner to know the RULES as they pertain to fielding punts and kicks!
JUDGEMENT, thats another matter.
does he fair catch a bll on the 7 or let it go, hoping it makes the end-zone. thats another matter.
but letting a KICK_OFF drop on the 5
or watching it roll around in the nd zone without even coming close to the ball?
thats inexcusable for a kid playing pop warner!
and you have to balme the COACHES in that situation !
I honestly watch the reaction of holliday in his role as a filder of a kick and have to wonder if he really knows and understands the RULES !

also helps with lance ball is not in the way of him catching the ball.

[Chef Zambini]

also helps with lance ball is not in the way of him catching the ball.this is why I am concerned about the COACHING taking place ! too often coaches assume their players know the rules, and focus all their energy on technique , formations and strategy.
I have seen far too manby occasions in the very short time that holliday has been with us, that he does NOT know the rules as they pertain to his specialty !
the failed communication between Ball and Holiday is indicitive of insufficient coaching !

[BroncoJoe]

this is why I am concerned about the COACHING taking place ! too often coaches assume their players know the rules, and focus all their energy on technique , formations and strategy.
I have seen far too manby occasions in the very short time that holliday has been with us, that he does NOT know the rules as they pertain to his specialty !
the failed communication between Ball and Holiday is indicitive of insufficient coaching !

I'd love to see the "too many occasions". What are they, Zam?

[Chef Zambini]

did not field a kick-off , the one with him and ball sharing a cup of tea.
when a ball was kicked away from him to the other side of the end zone HE JUST WATCHED IT ! he made no move to cover or posess the kick ! had the ball not gone out of bounds after rolling around, the KICKING team would have recoverd the ball for a TD ! joe, the kid had no clue that it was a live ball !
and finally, acting like a punk and just letting the ball go before he reached the end-zone.
there have been other, mnor indicators, but bases on the short # of games he has played with us, these 3 plays alone are cause for concern.
and joe, seriously, you think KUBIAK is in the habit of just letting great talent walk?
I am concerned about hollidays mental approach to the game.
the ST coaches need to mentor this kid, big time !

[Chef Zambini]

... otherwise I see a big fat, 'I told you so'on the horizon, and none of us want that !

[Chef Zambini]

regarding players understanding the RULES and coachas assuming they do...
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/49ers-rams-players-fail-test-asked-overtime-rules-125127131--nfl.html

[smith49]

did not field a kick-off , the one with him and ball sharing a cup of tea.
when a ball was kicked away from him to the other side of the end zone HE JUST WATCHED IT ! he made no move to cover or posess the kick ! had the ball not gone out of bounds after rolling around, the KICKING team would have recoverd the ball for a TD ! joe, the kid had no clue that it was a live ball !
and finally, acting like a punk and just letting the ball go before he reached the end-zone.
there have been other, mnor indicators, but bases on the short # of games he has played with us, these 3 plays alone are cause for concern.
and joe, seriously, you think KUBIAK is in the habit of just letting great talent walk?
I am concerned about hollidays mental approach to the game.
the ST coaches need to mentor this kid, big time !


I think u have some legit points here zam. I like him, but he has made some bone headed decisions.

[BroncoJoe]

did not field a kick-off , the one with him and ball sharing a cup of tea.
when a ball was kicked away from him to the other side of the end zone HE JUST WATCHED IT ! he made no move to cover or posess the kick ! had the ball not gone out of bounds after rolling around, the KICKING team would have recoverd the ball for a TD ! joe, the kid had no clue that it was a live ball !
and finally, acting like a punk and just letting the ball go before he reached the end-zone.
there have been other, mnor indicators, but bases on the short # of games he has played with us, these 3 plays alone are cause for concern.
and joe, seriously, you think KUBIAK is in the habit of just letting great talent walk?
I am concerned about hollidays mental approach to the game.
the ST coaches need to mentor this kid, big time !


"By no means is it a statement or anything about what we thought of Trindon," Kubiak said. "We have not been playing up to par on special teams, giving returners the opportunity. That had nothing to do with it. You never know, our paths may cross again. But we wish him the best. He did a good job, he earned his way onto this team, but we had to make a tough decision."
The more immediate concern is filling Cushing's role. The 2009 first-round draft pick was not only the team's leading tackler this season (43), he was also one of the emotional leaders and most respected players in the locker room.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/10/10/texans-cut-trindon-holliday-sign-lb-barrett-ruud-following-loss-cushing/#ixzz2C2kh6ClB

Cushing went down, needed to add a player on Defense.

Expecting a bounce into the endzone so we could get the ball on the 20 and having Ball drop on it at the 2 isn't necessarily Trindon's fault, not does it speak to his lack of football knowledge. In fact, I have very little doubt that Trindon's forgot more about football than you'll ever know.

As usual, you exaggerated the hell out of what happened.

[Buff]

Wait, did OP suggest playing Knowshon more?

Why? For the love of god, why? For the past few weeks we've looked balanced offensively and our RBs look comfortable in the system - why should we screw all that up by bringing a mediocre Knowshon back into the fray? Makes no sense. If our sole motivation is avoiding injury, then play Lance Ball, who is a better RB than Knowshon.

[SR]

this is not the foles thread.

hillman, holliday,mcgehee.
2 are rookies and one is fumbling like a rookie.
I like willy mac, he is on my fantasy team, i start him almost every week !
I have high hopes for HILLMAN, he has EARNED his playing time!

Holiday?
he is dynamic, he is exciting.
but he has ball control issues !
he acted like a PUNK dropping the ball before crossing the goal line!
and that ball is always coming out when he carries it. he is TOUGH and he has survived from big hits, but he is RAW on his football skills, and he needs some FOCUS on ball control and the rules of the game!
he let a ball roll around in the end zone on a kick off as if he was unaware that it was a free baLL
the special teams coach needs to go over the rules with this kid before he costs us a game !
remember the kick-off with him and Ball staring at a ball on the ground at the goal line?
this kid is a sprinter playing in a game unfamiliar to him !
all this TALENT, there has to be a REASON why kubiak let him go !
bronc fans consider yourselves forwarned, holiday is a mental disaster waiting to happen if they dont coaCH HIM UP !
we dont need moreno, we need more hillman and a more disciplined mcgehee !

Holliday is a WR, slick.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[BroncoNut]

put von miller in the backfield. Trindon may progress, but he'll never be that ground and pound back who doesn't give up the ball that we need in my opinion.

[Dapper Dan]

put von miller in the backfield. Trindon may progress, but he'll never be that ground and pound back who doesn't give up the ball that we need in my opinion.

It tends to work for the Tennessee Vols, putting a linebacker in on short yardage.

[TXBRONC]

Everyone take off your fan hat and put on your coaches hat. What would you do in the next few games regarding the distribution of playing time at runningback?

My thought is this- Willis McGahee is a great back, but what makes him so good is what he was doing in the earlier parts of the season...picking up yards after contact and getting "chunk" runs (not big, not short, but in the 5-15 yard range). He's not going to burn a defense, but I think his ability would be more valuable in December and the playoffs when defense are a bit more tired and the weather is cold. Not to mention, as coach, I want to send him a lesson for his fumbles. Those few fumbles didn't matter today, but in a playoff game against Houston or New England, we lose.

I play McGahee, Ronnie Hillman and (crucify me) Knowshon Moreno. Moreno has been in the dog house long enough and the way I see it, a big part of our offense is throwing to RBs, and Moreno is better than McGahee in this arena. He may not have lived up to his #1 pick status, but he is still a good option, and has made his share of plays in Denver. Hillman I'd like to see more...so far it's meh for me...not good but not bad. But he's earned some reps. This distribution is not ideal, but it's what we have.

Oh, and I love Holliday in the backfield. It's obvious what he's there for, and he won't be taking handoffs or blocking, so we'd have to be creative. But he is lightning quick and already looks like one of the more dangerous players in the league when he has some open field in front of him. I'd throw him back there on occasion next to a more traditional RB and try to set up a few screens.

Moreno is terrible pass blocker and I wouldn't say he's better receiver than McGahee. Besides that, if that's all he's good for then he's right where he needs to be.

[cmc0605]

Moreno is terrible pass blocker and I wouldn't say he's better receiver than McGahee. Besides that, if that's all he's good for then he's right where he needs to be.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the receiving thing, though I am sympathetic to your point about blocking. That said, while Moreno may not have lived up to being a #1 pick, he is still averaging over 4 yards a carry in his career and has value at running back. And that number has improved in each successive year between 2009-2011, being close to 5 ypc last year. I have never been a Moreno-hater, unlike many, and have always tried to remain realistic. He's not a pro bowler, but he can contribute far more to this team than people give him credit for...and I see nothing in Hillman (yet) or Lance Ball that he can't do. And honestly, him not playing much this season has a lot to do with one big fumble and low sample size of plays to look at, which is irresponsible coaching.

In my opinion, the people who deny this are just angry about him not panning out as a #1 draft pick and have not looked at the stats...or cite irrelevancies like "# of 100 yard games compared to McGahee", etc.

[Buff]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the receiving thing, though I am sympathetic to your point about blocking. That said, while Moreno may not have been a #1 pick, he is still averaging over 4 yards a carry in his career and has value at running back. I have never been a Moreno-hater, unlike many, and have always tried to remain realistic. He's not a pro bowler, but he can contribute far more to this team than people give him credit for...and I see nothing in Hillman (yet) or Lance Ball that he can't do.

In my opinion, the people who deny this are just angry about him not panning out as a #1 draft pick and have not looked at the stats...or cite irrelevancies like "# of 100 yard games compared to McGahee", etc.

I disagree on every point.

I don't understand why people are so eager to cite his YPC (actually I do, it's the last remaining argument in favor of Moreno) when he has looked so below average for his entire career. I don't understand where this optimism comes from. Further, our running game has actually looked good in recent weeks, so I don't understand why now? Why would anyone want to activate him before we absolutely have to?

With Moreno there is this weird backlash to the backlash where people desperately want to believe that he still has unfulfilled potential. I personally don't buy it.

[turftoad]

I disagree on every point.

I don't understand why people are so eager to cite his YPC (actually I do, it's the last remaining argument in favor of Moreno) when he has looked so below average for his entire career. I don't understand where this optimism comes from. Further, our running game has actually looked good in recent weeks, so I don't understand why now? Why would anyone want to activate him before we absolutely have to?

With Moreno there is this weird backlash to the backlash where people desperately want to believe that he still has unfulfilled potential. I personally don't buy it.

I agree Buff, however, McGahee is long in the tooth and looks to be slowing down thus the fumbles. He's still the best RB on the roster, no question.
IMO, we need to cut his reps. Kind of save him toward the end of the season/playoffs.
I don't think Hillman can carry the load and don't much believe in the other backs on the roster. So.... Why not let Moreno play some and see what happens. Hell, he should be healthy now. If it doesn't work, so be it.

[Buff]

I agree Buff, however, McGahee is long in the tooth and looks to be slowing down thus the fumbles. He's still the best RB on the roster, no question.
IMO, we need to cut his reps. Kind of save him toward the end of the season/playoffs.
I don't think Hillman can carry the load and don't much believe in the other backs on the roster. So.... Why not let Moreno play some and see what happens. Hell, he should be healthy now. If it doesn't work, so be it.

Why not let Moreno play? Because he is a below average RB who has terrible vision.

I'm fully on board with limiting McGahee's touches down the stretch - but give them to Ball and Hillman. Moreno is a 4th string RB. I don't have a ton of faith in Lance Ball either, but I trust him more than Knowshon, and so do the coaches.

[dogfish]

here's a better question than "why not let moreno play?"

WHY let moreno play?

sorry, but he's no better than lance ball. . . fox and his coaching staff have more than proven over the years that they know what they're doing in the run game, and they're dressing ball over moreno on sundays. . . it is what it is. . . if we need him at some point, i hope he can fulfill some of the hopes and expectations people still have of him. . . better yet, i hope the guys we're using now stay healthy. . . moreno will leave with no fanfare once his contract is up at the end of the season, and we will most likely draft another back somewhere in the middle rounds-- or bring in another FA if they want a vet for pass pro. . .

[BroncoNut]

I think that's a bit much Buff. Let's talk about something else. What are you doing for Thanksgiving? Seems to me like you have plenty to be thankful for

[Softskull]

No one has been a bigger Moreno homer on this page than me.

If Moreno can't make it in a Manning offense, he's done. It's time for him to go.

[cmc0605]

I disagree on every point.

I don't understand why people are so eager to cite his YPC (actually I do, it's the last remaining argument in favor of Moreno) when he has looked so below average for his entire career. I don't understand where this optimism comes from. Further, our running game has actually looked good in recent weeks, so I don't understand why now? Why would anyone want to activate him before we absolutely have to?

With Moreno there is this weird backlash to the backlash where people desperately want to believe that he still has unfulfilled potential. I personally don't buy it.

I'll be blunt and say that I don't think Moreno has been given a fair shot in a long time, not since the McDaniels period. I also think the Moreno hatred has become just as much a dogma as the Tebow enthusiasts. Last year is not a good evaluation of an RB, since teams could put 11 people in the box and not have to worry about passing. But he still did well, even if it wasn't as well as McGahee. Why should I not cite nearly 5 yards per carry for Moreno last year? It's basic statistics, and is certainly not contaminated by a few 90+ yard runs that offset a bunch of awfulness. The problem is that people don't like math, just like die-hard Republicans didn't like when Nate Silver predicted the election outcome when it didn't fit into their worldview. He also has a good highlight reel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81oRCSfJ6Q4), especially when he has decent blocking and isn't getting destroyed in the backfield (I will also go on record as saying he hasn't gotten said blocking for much of his career).

McGahee also did superb last year, since he has the power to break tackles. He is a very good back when he's not fumbling, but I do think he should be a bit more limited throughout the next few games. But I'm telling you that in a Peyton Manning offense, Moreno has much more potential to make plays than in a Tebow-based offense. He has still made a number of "big plays" in Denver that I'm sure people don't remember because they are still angry about him not becoming Adrian Peterson.

I am not saying that Moreno will all of a sudden become superman. I'm not saying he should be the starter, or even get half the workload. I'm saying that he is more than adequate to be in the rotation, and I completely disagree that Hillman or Ball have something he doesn't. They haven't shown it. Moreno has.

P.S. Moreno is in his fourth year in the league...and with injuries he's had about two years worth of playing time. It also took McGahee a while to find his role in the NFL, and I'd argue is having the best part of his career in Denver. I don't think Moreno has been given a fair shot, and I'd be willing to bet a team like New England or Houston with coaches who can see beyond shallow issues would love to have him...and as a fan I'll be the first to say I told you so if he ends up thriving elsewhere.

[dogfish]

I think that's a bit much Buff. Let's talk about something else. What are you doing for Thanksgiving? Seems to me like you have plenty to be thankful for

leave him be, nut-- his long, national nightmare is nearly over. . .

[TXBRONC]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the receiving thing, though I am sympathetic to your point about blocking. That said, while Moreno may not have lived up to being a #1 pick, he is still averaging over 4 yards a carry in his career and has value at running back. And that number has improved in each successive year between 2009-2011, being close to 5 ypc last year. I have never been a Moreno-hater, unlike many, and have always tried to remain realistic. He's not a pro bowler, but he can contribute far more to this team than people give him credit for...and I see nothing in Hillman (yet) or Lance Ball that he can't do. And honestly, him not playing much this season has a lot to do with one big fumble and low sample size of plays to look at, which is irresponsible coaching.

In my opinion, the people who deny this are just angry about him not panning out as a #1 draft pick and have not looked at the stats...or cite irrelevancies like "# of 100 yard games compared to McGahee", etc.

If Fox thought he was more than just depth he would have him on the field.

[turftoad]

If Fox thought he was more than just depth he would have him on the field.

Ahhh... Unless he's letting him get healthy. I think we all know Moreno is NO Adrian Peterson by any means. I mean, most players take more than just the offseason to recover from those types of surgery.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Dapper Dan]

I have faith in the coaching staff. Moreno is inactive for a reason.

[turftoad]

I have faith in the coaching staff. Moreno is inactive for a reason.

Agreed. For whatever that reason may be.

[Dapper Dan]

Agreed. For whatever that reason may be.

I heard he hit in John Fox's wife.

[turftoad]

I heard he hit in John Fox's wife.

I guess you never know.

[BroncoNut]

leave him be, nut-- his long, national nightmare is nearly over. . .

He's not well Dog. you know that as well as I do. I'm worried about him

[Superchop 7]

IMO, this is the part of the season, with our record and team, that you reduce McGahees carries because you need a healthy McGahee for the playoffs.

We can win without him.

and yes, Moreno has been in the dog house too long. The coaches are being petty, if you hate the kid get some balls and release him instead of this Marcus Allen/Al Davis fued bullshit.

[Northman]

I disagree on every point.

I don't understand why people are so eager to cite his YPC (actually I do, it's the last remaining argument in favor of Moreno) when he has looked so below average for his entire career. I don't understand where this optimism comes from. Further, our running game has actually looked good in recent weeks, so I don't understand why now? Why would anyone want to activate him before we absolutely have to?

With Moreno there is this weird backlash to the backlash where people desperately want to believe that he still has unfulfilled potential. I personally don't buy it.

Yep.

[Northman]

I agree Buff, however, McGahee is long in the tooth and looks to be slowing down thus the fumbles. He's still the best RB on the roster, no question.
IMO, we need to cut his reps. Kind of save him toward the end of the season/playoffs.
I don't think Hillman can carry the load and don't much believe in the other backs on the roster. So.... Why not let Moreno play some and see what happens. Hell, he should be healthy now. If it doesn't work, so be it.

Well, he hasnt worked and thats why he is sitting.

[Buff]

I think that's a bit much Buff. Let's talk about something else. What are you doing for Thanksgiving? Seems to me like you have plenty to be thankful for

Don't patronize me, Nut... You know I have very little to live for.

[TXBRONC]

Ahhh... Unless he's letting him get healthy. I think we all know Moreno is NO Adrian Peterson by any means. I mean, most players take more than just the offseason to recover from those types of surgery.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

He was active for the first three games of the season.

[BroncoNut]

Don't patronize me, Nut... You know I have very little to live for.

i know, but I'm not patronizing you. But I do apologize for my concern

[Chef Zambini]

Cushing went down, needed to add a player on Defense.

Expecting a bounce into the endzone so we could get the ball on the 20 and having Ball drop on it at the 2 isn't necessarily Trindon's fault, not does it speak to his lack of football knowledge. In fact, I have very little doubt that Trindon's forgot more about football than you'll ever know.

As usual, you exaggerated the hell out of what happened.and I guess his discussion of the events of the game with his coaches, which has been documented in this thread by other posters, is also an exxageration on the part of fox and the special teams coaches?
they must be just as stupid and annoying as i am, i hope trinton ignored them too !

[tubby]

Travis Henry is available. BigHoss20 anyone?

[BroncoNut]

Travis Henry is available. BigHoss20 anyone?

he's not in the league anymore and won't come back either.

[Chef Zambini]

Travis Henry is available. BigHoss20 anyone?

... according to MATCH.COM?

[Simple Jaded]

he is better, he has better hands and have you seen some of the drops Mcgahee has this season?

Better hands? Stokley has better hands than Thomas, does that make him a better receiver? Of course not.

I don't see anything that Moreno can do that most any RB can't just as well or better, up to and including pass protection.......

[Chef Zambini]

He was active for the first three games of the season.
morenos cap hit is the ONLY thing keeping him on this team!
first round bust ! 5th round talent at a first round price! over the years we have paid this underperformer tens of millions of dollars to stink up the joint.

[BroncoNut]

Better hands? Stokley has better hands than Thomas, does that make him a better receiver? Of course not.

I don't see anything that Moreno can do that most any RB can't just as well or better, up to and including pass protection.......

Damaryius' hands are far better than Strokely's

[BroncoNut]

morenos cap hit is the ONLY thing keeping him on this team!
first round bust ! 5th round talent at a first round price! over the years we have paid this underperformer tens of millions of dollars to stink up the joint.

well Moreno's cap hit is serving him a hell of lot better than yours is you, that's for damn sure.

[ShaneFalco]

I just dont understand why Willis cant use 2 hands.

[dogfish]

Damaryius' hands are far better than Strokely's

nut, please shut the hell up. . .


:welcome:

[Chef Zambini]

well Moreno's cap hit is serving him a hell of lot better than yours is you, that's for damn sure.sounds like somebody owns a moreno jersey!
next time buy a hat!
the cap hit will be less painfull!

[BroncoNut]

sounds like somebody owns a moreno jersey!
next time buy a hat!
the cap hit will be less painfull!

go pound your pud zam.

[Chef Zambini]

go pound your pud zam.how clever and original.
did you think that up all by yourself?
hey, did you hear about vance losing his restaurant?

[BroncoNut]

how clever and original.
did you think that up all by yourself?
hey, did you hear about vance losing his restaurant?

oh just go blow it out your ear ZAM

no, I didn't hear about that. vance who?

[NightTerror218]

Peronally I think it depends on how Hillman does this year. If he does well then we could draft a new RB but if he is struggling I could see another vet signed.

[Simple Jaded]

Damaryius' hands are far better than Strokely's

If you say so.......

[HORSEPOWER 56]

At this point if we aren't ever going to use him again, just let Moreno walk and call up JJ from the practice squad. The sad thing is, he's probably our most "complete" back. JJ is faster than McGahee or Ball, has better hands than everyone except Moreno, and runs with good power for his size (better than Hillman), and is just as shifty in the open field as Hillman is. Oh, he also plays STs...

Just cut Moreno, deactivate Ball, and bring JJ up. Championship! :werd:

[LTC Pain]

At this point if we aren't ever going to use him again, just let Moreno walk and call up JJ from the practice squad. The sad thing is, he's probably our most "complete" back. JJ is faster than McGahee or Ball, has better hands than everyone except Moreno, and runs with good power for his size (better than Hillman), and is just as shifty in the open field as Hillman is. Oh, he also plays STs...

Just cut Moreno, deactivate Ball, and bring JJ up. Championship! :werd:

HP56 guess my response would be "why doesn't the coaching staff see it your way"??? I see a Moreno trade for a draft pick coming after the season and the Broncos definitely drafting another RB next April. Hopefully a bit of a bruiser to compliment Hillman.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

HP56 guess my response would be "why doesn't the coaching staff see it your way"??? I see a Moreno trade for a draft pick coming after the season and the Broncos definitely drafting another RB next April. Hopefully a bit of a bruiser to compliment Hillman.

Honestly, I just think it's a numbers game. JJ is the only guy, not named Hillman, who had practice squad eligibility and Hillman probably would've been claimed off our PS had we tried to put him there. Hillman is the new draftee, Elway's and Fox's "guy", who they moved up in the draft to get (Fox probably hoping he'd be another Deangelo Williams - small school, undersized back with big stats and potential) and he'll be given every opportunity (just like Moreno was under McDaniels) no matter how he plays - hence why he suits up and Moreno and JJ don't. Ball is the other "power" back who is McGahee's direct replacement if McGahee gets hurt and has no more practice squad eligibility.

At this point, I think it's more about personnel management than anything else. McGahee is the starter, Ball is the "backup" who plays STs, JJ is PS eligible so we can keep him around without spending a roster spot, and Hillman is active over Moreno because, well, he's the new toy who they are feeding carries to hope he blossoms into the guy they want him to be.

In thinking about it, I don't think Moreno's benching had anything to do with him. Remember, Hillman was nicked up during TC and in order to activate him once he was better, they had to deactivate someone - that someone was Moreno, the guy with the most similar skill set.

[Chef Zambini]

Honestly, I just think it's a numbers game. JJ is the only guy, not named Hillman, who had practice squad eligibility and Hillman probably would've been claimed off our PS had we tried to put him there. Hillman is the new draftee, Elway's and Fox's "guy", who they moved up in the draft to get (Fox probably hoping he'd be another Deangelo Williams - small school, undersized back with big stats and potential) and he'll be given every opportunity (just like Moreno was under McDaniels) no matter how he plays - hence why he suits up and Moreno and JJ don't. Ball is the other "power" back who is McGahee's direct replacement if McGahee gets hurt and has no more practice squad eligibility.

At this point, I think it's more about personnel management than anything else. McGahee is the starter, Ball is the "backup" who plays STs, JJ is PS eligible so we can keep him around without spending a roster spot, and Hillman is active over Moreno because, well, he's the new toy who they are feeding carries to hope he blossoms into the guy they want him to be.

In thinking about it, I don't think Moreno's benching had anything to do with him. Remember, Hillman was nicked up during TC and in order to activate him once he was better, they had to deactivate someone - that someone was Moreno, the guy with the most similar skill set.best post of the thread.

[turftoad]

Honestly, I just think it's a numbers game. JJ is the only guy, not named Hillman, who had practice squad eligibility and Hillman probably would've been claimed off our PS had we tried to put him there. Hillman is the new draftee, Elway's and Fox's "guy", who they moved up in the draft to get (Fox probably hoping he'd be another Deangelo Williams - small school, undersized back with big stats and potential) and he'll be given every opportunity (just like Moreno was under McDaniels) no matter how he plays - hence why he suits up and Moreno and JJ don't. Ball is the other "power" back who is McGahee's direct replacement if McGahee gets hurt and has no more practice squad eligibility.

At this point, I think it's more about personnel management than anything else. McGahee is the starter, Ball is the "backup" who plays STs, JJ is PS eligible so we can keep him around without spending a roster spot, and Hillman is active over Moreno because, well, he's the new toy who they are feeding carries to hope he blossoms into the guy they want him to be.

In thinking about it, I don't think Moreno's benching had anything to do with him. Remember, Hillman was nicked up during TC and in order to activate him once he was better, they had to deactivate someone - that someone was Moreno, the guy with the most similar skill set.

Not to mention that Moreno is comming off of reconstructive knee surgery. Most experts (whoever they are) said he would not even be back til November.

[NightTerror218]

Franklin for UCLA is looking good

[BroncoNut]

If you say so.......

what ever

[bcbronc]

Honestly, I just think it's a numbers game. JJ is the only guy, not named Hillman, who had practice squad eligibility and Hillman probably would've been claimed off our PS had we tried to put him there. Hillman is the new draftee, Elway's and Fox's "guy", who they moved up in the draft to get (Fox probably hoping he'd be another Deangelo Williams - small school, undersized back with big stats and potential) and he'll be given every opportunity (just like Moreno was under McDaniels) no matter how he plays - hence why he suits up and Moreno and JJ don't. Ball is the other "power" back who is McGahee's direct replacement if McGahee gets hurt and has no more practice squad eligibility.

At this point, I think it's more about personnel management than anything else. McGahee is the starter, Ball is the "backup" who plays STs, JJ is PS eligible so we can keep him around without spending a roster spot, and Hillman is active over Moreno because, well, he's the new toy who they are feeding carries to hope he blossoms into the guy they want him to be.

In thinking about it, I don't think Moreno's benching had anything to do with him. Remember, Hillman was nicked up during TC and in order to activate him once he was better, they had to deactivate someone - that someone was Moreno, the guy with the most similar skill set.


Good post, but the thing with JJ is that not only doesn't our coaching staff see him as worthy of an NFL roster spot, neither does any other coaching staff. If he really was that complete a back, someone would have signed him from our practice squad by now.

[dogfish]

Good post, but the thing with JJ is that not only doesn't our coaching staff see him as worthy of an NFL roster spot, neither does any other coaching staff. If he really was that complete a back, someone would have signed him from our practice squad by now.

you see anybody beating down the door to trade for moreno?

:laugh:




you guys are gonna have to let the guy go pretty soon here, ya know. . .

[bcbronc]

you see anybody beating down the door to trade for moreno?

:laugh:




you guys are gonna have to let the guy go pretty soon here, ya know. . .

did I say something about Moreno?? WTF dog.

[dogfish]

did I say something about Moreno?? WTF dog.

relax, i'm just bustin' your chops. . . little defensive about your boy, huh?

:D

[ShaneFalco]

i think they are waiting for Morenos contract to expire or be in the final 2 years. So they dont have a problem with his signing bonus or penalties.

[BroncoNut]

relax, i'm just bustin' your chops. . . little defensive about your boy, huh?

:D

shut up dog. You do this type of shit all the time then blame the other person for being too uptight. in short you are a jagoff

[Chef Zambini]

moreno, hardly worth talking about.

[dogfish]

shut up dog. You do this type of shit all the time then blame the other person for being too uptight. in short you are a jagoff

nut, don't make me have to take you apart. . .

[Nomad]

Nut is out of control!

[Simple Jaded]

what ever

As if.

Slowshon may just yet get his chance to make an impact if McGahee is seriously injured.......

[SR]

Nut is out of control!

He's upset hotcarl was banned again

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

[dogfish]

Nut is out of control!

what else is new?

[NightTerror218]

Just saying Hillman could not fill the void left by McGahee yesterday.

[BroncoNut]

As if.

Slowshon may just yet get his chance to make an impact if McGahee is seriously injured.......

my gosh. what an intelligent comment. Way to connect the dots

[Simple Jaded]

my gosh. what an intelligent comment. Way to connect the dots


Yeah, "what ever" was pure genius.

Btw, the Slowshon comment had nothing to do with "what ever", just an aside.......

[BroncoNut]

Yeah, "what ever" was pure genius.

Btw, the Slowshon comment had nothing to do with "what ever", just an aside.......

say again?