Broncos' Champ Bailey showed full assortment of skills against Saints

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Occasionally, Champ Bailey gets asked about moving to safety some day. Some day soon or some day down the road, depending on who asks the question.

His answer usually revolves around when the time is right or when he thinks it would be best. But Sunday night was a quality example of what makes Bailey, at 34 years old, in his 14th NFL season, still among the best at what he does right now.

The Broncos matched Bailey on Saints wide receiver Marques Colston for most of the evening. Colston, who both entered and exited the game as New Orleans quarterback Drew Brees' favorite receiver, finished with five receptions for a rather low-impact 63 yards and no touchdowns.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_21882160/broncos-champ-bailey-showed-full-assortment-skills-against

[Denver Native (Carol)]

from article:


And it's just part of why Bailey is still so important to the Broncos defense right where he is, at cornerback.

[SR]

Who knew!

[gregbroncs]

Yea I liked that line. You don't take one of the best CB's in the league and move him to safety. Especially since he's never really played the spot.

[bcbronc]

So Champ does get asked about moving to safety and responds with "when the time is right".

Hardly the "noone ever thinks about moving an elite CB" that MO- keeps claiming.

And on the article, I agree with all of it except I'd say Rod Woodson was an elite CB that could tackle as well as Champ. Won't bother pointing out how well he transitioned to safety....

[Day1BroncoFan]

Seems to me the jury is in, Champ is still guilty of playing CB very well and should remain doing so for the Broncos.

[scott.475]

I like Champ so much. I am so glad he is a Bronco, and still playing darn good for an old man!

[Ravage!!!]

So Champ does get asked about moving to safety and responds with "when the time is right".

Hardly the "noone ever thinks about moving an elite CB" that MO- keeps claiming.

And on the article, I agree with all of it except I'd say Rod Woodson was an elite CB that could tackle as well as Champ. Won't bother pointing out how well he transitioned to safety....

You don't move them when they are still playing at ELITE levels at cornerback. No one said people dont' ask about it, its common that GMs/coaches dont' DO it. Completely different than un-knowledgable fans questioning the move. Woodson moved to Safety after he couldn't run anymore after a knee injury and couldn't play corner at top level anymore.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

So Champ does get asked about moving to safety and responds with "when the time is right".

Hardly the "noone ever thinks about moving an elite CB" that MO- keeps claiming.

And on the article, I agree with all of it except I'd say Rod Woodson was an elite CB that could tackle as well as Champ. Won't bother pointing out how well he transitioned to safety....

The press has ask Champ about him moving to safety one day. I don't believe that is what MO is arguing.

[MOtorboat]

You don't move them when they are still playing at ELITE levels at cornerback. No one said people dont' ask about it, its common that GMs/coaches dont' DO it. Completely different than un-knowledgable fans questioning the move. Woodson moved to Safety after he couldn't run anymore after a knee injury and couldn't play corner at top level anymore.

People, in all walks of life, myself included, can't appreciate what they have.

For example, people look at Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu and get excited, "My favorite team needs Ed Reed!"

Then, when the draft and free agent only produces marginal players, they look at other players on the team, not appreciating their skills at their current position, and start screaming about moving that player to the position Ed Reed plays.

Not because that player would excel at that position (even though in this case, he MIGHT), but because that's the position Ed Reed plays. They like a player at a position, then they overvalue that position in their own mind.

Champ Bailey isn't Ed Reed. He's Champ Bailey.

And he's a cornerback. Not a safety.

And cornerback is unequivocally, a more important position in terms of team-building.

[DenBronx]

Like I said weeks ago. You would move Chris Harris to safety before anyone else, well, because he has experience there.

[MOtorboat]

Like I said weeks ago. You would move Chris Harris to safety before anyone else, well, because he has experience there.

Exactly.

Rational thought...

Here Denver has a defensive back who came in without a role, who has shown that he can cover and tackle, but is not an elite player at his position. He also has experience at both cornerback and nickelback, as well as dime for portions of last year. With a shutdown corner on one side in Bailey, and a solid corner on the other in Tracy Porter, this is the type of intelligent, calculated risk a defensive coordinator could make.

Instead of SACRIFICING the best player he has at the second-most important position on the field, he takes a player who is in a minimal role as a nickelback and has excelled and puts him into a position to succeed. If he's really creative, he brings him down into the nickel in passing situations and leaves him at strong safety in non-passing situations.

I have to commend DenBronx for having an intelligent, well thought out, original point. And it makes complete sense in the context of the Broncos defensive situation.

[bcbronc]

Mo you're living in the '80s still. Corner just isn't as important as you say it is anymore. Man coverage is too hard because of the rules, WRs are huge and fast and strong, and QBs have all sorts of tricks now to beat man coverage (ie back shoulder throws). You just think CB is still so important because that's been the mantra most of your football watching life.

But go look at the rosters of the Superbowl champions and the best defenses over the past decade or so, and it's pretty clear that having an elite CB doesn't an elite defense make. I mean come on, we've had some absolutely terrible defenses--embarrassingly bad I think we'd all agree-while Champ was in his prime. If CB is the second most important position, how can the team with one of the greatest ever at the positions constantly have dreadful defenses year after year? Then contrast to some of the best defenses over that time frame, and they frequently have nothing more than average CBs and top tier safeties are much more prevalent.

So great defenses have average CBs and dreadful defenses have the GOAT at CB, but CB is the second most important position on the field? It just doesn't add up.

[MOtorboat]

Mo you're living in the '80s still. Corner just isn't as important as you say it is anymore. Man coverage is too hard because of the rules, WRs are huge and fast and strong, and QBs have all sorts of tricks now to beat man coverage (ie back shoulder throws). You just think CB is still so important because that's been the mantra most of your football watching life.

But go look at the rosters of the Superbowl champions and the best defenses over the past decade or so, and it's pretty clear that having an elite CB doesn't an elite defense make. I mean come on, we've had some absolutely terrible defenses--embarrassingly bad I think we'd all agree-while Champ was in his prime. If CB is the second most important position, how can the team with one of the greatest ever at the positions constantly have dreadful defenses year after year? Then contrast to some of the best defenses over that time frame, and they frequently have nothing more than average CBs and top tier safeties are much more prevalent.

So great defenses have average CBs and dreadful defenses have the GOAT at CB, but CB is the second most important position on the field? It just doesn't add up.

Nothing has changed. You're wrong. I know you and Zam like to think you're somehow ahead of some curve, but you're not. GMs say rush end and corner. Defensive coordinators say rush end and corner. Head Coaches say rush end and corner. Pay grades say rush end and corner.

I don't feel like elaborating much more. It's futile at this point.

[SR]

Corner just isn't as important as you say it is anymore.

Uh...yeah it is. It's a QB driven league. QBs are passing for record yardage, TDs, completion percentages, etc. What is the MOST important thing to combat that? An elite corner. Period. Defensive line pressure is important. Linebackers are important. Safeties are important. Corners are THE MOST important because they're covering the WRs that the QBs in the QB driven league are throwing to. Good coverage reduces the QBs options. Shitty, loose coverage gives the QB options.

[Ravage!!!]

Uh...yeah it is. It's a QB driven league. QBs are passing for record yardage, TDs, completion percentages, etc. What is the MOST important thing to combat that? An elite corner. Period. Defensive line pressure is important. Linebackers are important. Safeties are important. Corners are THE MOST important because they're covering the WRs that the QBs in the QB driven league are throwing to. Good coverage reduces the QBs options. Shitty, loose coverage gives the QB options.

Exactly. BECAUSE of the league being a passing league, the CB's value has INCREASED. Look at Seattle..their defense is VERY good, and it has a LOT to do with their CBs... not their safety. Look at what Champ was able to do to NO's best WR.. that limits a team when you can bring one side to a halt.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I read zam's and bc's posts in regards to Champ, and you would think that Champ is killing the Broncos with poor play????? UNBELIEVABLE

[DenBronx]

I read zam's and bc's posts in regards to Champ, and you would think that Champ is killing the Broncos with poor play????? UNBELIEVABLE

Haha, I can't believe any rational Bronco fan would ever think that. Champ always covers the best guys. Guys like Colston, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson ect. It's not like Champ is covering the scrubs all the time. In fact when Champ does give up a play here and there he gets a pass because this is a passing league and he always covers the best of the best anyway. Plus Champ always breaks from coverage to make a tackle on a RB, TE or help another DB.

Champs still playing at a high level and he needs to stay right where he is for now. I still would like to see Harris, Porter and Carter all on the field at the same time. So that means Moore and Adams better play their asses off because we have some very hungry DBs right now wanting to make plays on the field. I suspect that Bailey has really taught these young guys alot about being a cornerback. Maybe Bailey wont get the INTs because QBs hate throwing at him but that means these other guys will get a shot.

[Softskull]

This comes up about Champ every year now. He's become my absolute favorite Bronco. The guys is as cool as they come in an interview. He never makes the Monday morning police botter. He's been a role model for every other defensive player that's cruised through Dove Valley for the last decade. That aside, he's a complete badass as a CB.

I've seen the comparisons to the best Bronco CB's ever. To me there's no comparison. Champ is the best we've ever had here (and I loved Louis Wright). Champ has become the timeless Rocky Mountain treasure. Think about how lucky we are to watch both Champ Baily and Peyton Manning on the same team. Even if we dont win a SB in the next three years (and we will win two) we've been blessed.

[bcbronc]

Nothing has changed. You're wrong. I know you and Zam like to think you're somehow ahead of some curve, but you're not. GMs say rush end and corner. Defensive coordinators say rush end and corner. Head Coaches say rush end and corner. Pay grades say rush end and corner.

I don't feel like elaborating much more. It's futile at this point.

Which GMs? Which DCs? Which HCs? Not all are created equal.

I prefer to start at the end game and look for comparables. The whole point of this thing is to win Superbowls and create great defenses. Start there over the past decade or so and tell me that CB is universally more important to those rosters than S is. I don't give a shit that Andy Reid thinks having 3 stud corners is more important than having a great S, I really don't. And no, I'm not saying I'm smarter than Andy Reid and am ahead of some curve that he can't comprehend. I don't have to be smarter to see the results.

Find me a Superbowl champion or a great defense with average starting safeties and great CBs from the past decade or so. There has to be at least 1 or 2, because there's certainly the opposite. If you can't find at least 1 team that fits that criteria--and I can find a couple that are strong at S and only okay at CB--then that's a serious chink in your argument that you need to resolve.

We've had the elite rush end + elite CB with Champ and Doom and still absolutely stunk on defense. I know, other 9 guys sucked, or maybe it's all the DC, etc etc. That's all BS. If rush end + CB are the two most important positions on defense, how do you stink when you have them? You should be at least respectable if you have elite players in the two most important slots.

Put it this way, most will agree the two most important positions on offense are QB + LT...can anyone name an offense with an elite QB and LT duo more or less in their primes sucking the way some of our defences have despite the presence of Champ and Doom? Likewise, find me a defense with an elite S + DT that sucked?

If given the choice between elite CB + rush end or elite S + DT, I take the latter every time.


Uh...yeah it is. It's a QB driven league. QBs are passing for record yardage, TDs, completion percentages, etc. What is the MOST important thing to combat that? An elite corner. Period. Defensive line pressure is important. Linebackers are important. Safeties are important. Corners are THE MOST important because they're covering the WRs that the QBs in the QB driven league are throwing to. Good coverage reduces the QBs options. Shitty, loose coverage gives the QB options.

Agreed, it's a QB driven league. But CB doesn't negate the QB, he negates the WR. It's the safety that negates the QB. The safety reads the QB, the CB reads the WR (overly simple, I know but you get the gist). Who's Tom Brady's favourite receiver? The open one. It doesn't matter if your elite CB is shutting down the #1 WR if the other 2 guys are wide open. The point isn't probowls, it's Superbowls, and the simple undeniable fact is recent Superbowl champions have had great safeties because they influence more of the field. Peyton Manning's only Superbowl was when he had Bob Saunders, NO and GB both had All-Pro (not probowl, ALL-PRO) Safeties, obviously Pittsburgh, NE had whatsisface. See Reid, Andy for the "let's get really, really deep at CB" option.

I can't think of a specific time and place, but we've all seen plays by Champ where he'll be in man coverage and come off his man to make an interception on a pass to another guy's man. We just don't see it very often because of he's playing on the perimeter most of the time. Personally, I'd love to see those instincts in the middle of the field.


Exactly. BECAUSE of the league being a passing league, the CB's value has INCREASED. Look at Seattle..their defense is VERY good, and it has a LOT to do with their CBs... not their safety. Look at what Champ was able to do to NO's best WR.. that limits a team when you can bring one side to a halt.

whuuuuut?? Seattle's got one of the best young safety duos in the league. Right there with SF. Every Bronco fan should be familiar with Earl Thomas...SEA drafted him with the pick we gave them for Alfonso Smith :tsk:...and Kam Chancellor is a 3rd year player who is 6'3" 230lbs and put up 97 tackles, 13 passes defended, and 4 picks in his sophomore season.

On the other hand, their CBs are products of their system. They're big and play a lot of press cover 2. Both good players, but neither are really guys that you can just drop into any scheme and expect them to excel like they're doing now. And living in the pacific northwest, I can safely say that the safeties are a huge part of what Seattle is doing on defense. In fact, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet you haven't seen much--if any--of the 'Hawks this year.

[MOtorboat]

Which GMs? Which DCs? Which HCs? Not all are created equal.

I prefer to start at the end game and look for comparables. The whole point of this thing is to win Superbowls and create great defenses. Start there over the past decade or so and tell me that CB is universally more important to those rosters than S is. I don't give a shit that Andy Reid thinks having 3 stud corners is more important than having a great S, I really don't. And no, I'm not saying I'm smarter than Andy Reid and am ahead of some curve that he can't comprehend. I don't have to be smarter to see the results.

Find me a Superbowl champion or a great defense with average starting safeties and great CBs from the past decade or so. There has to be at least 1 or 2, because there's certainly the opposite. If you can't find at least 1 team that fits that criteria--and I can find a couple that are strong at S and only okay at CB--then that's a serious chink in your argument that you need to resolve.

We've had the elite rush end + elite CB with Champ and Doom and still absolutely stunk on defense. I know, other 9 guys sucked, or maybe it's all the DC, etc etc. That's all BS. If rush end + CB are the two most important positions on defense, how do you stink when you have them? You should be at least respectable if you have elite players in the two most important slots.

Put it this way, most will agree the two most important positions on offense are QB + LT...can anyone name an offense with an elite QB and LT duo more or less in their primes sucking the way some of our defences have despite the presence of Champ and Doom? Likewise, find me a defense with an elite S + DT that sucked?

If given the choice between elite CB + rush end or elite S + DT, I take the latter every time.



Agreed, it's a QB driven league. But CB doesn't negate the QB, he negates the WR. It's the safety that negates the QB. The safety reads the QB, the CB reads the WR (overly simple, I know but you get the gist). Who's Tom Brady's favourite receiver? The open one. It doesn't matter if your elite CB is shutting down the #1 WR if the other 2 guys are wide open. The point isn't probowls, it's Superbowls, and the simple undeniable fact is recent Superbowl champions have had great safeties because they influence more of the field. Peyton Manning's only Superbowl was when he had Bob Saunders, NO and GB both had All-Pro (not probowl, ALL-PRO) Safeties, obviously Pittsburgh, NE had whatsisface. See Reid, Andy for the "let's get really, really deep at CB" option.

I can't think of a specific time and place, but we've all seen plays by Champ where he'll be in man coverage and come off his man to make an interception on a pass to another guy's man. We just don't see it very often because of he's playing on the perimeter most of the time. Personally, I'd love to see those instincts in the middle of the field.



whuuuuut?? Seattle's got one of the best young safety duos in the league. Right there with SF. Every Bronco fan should be familiar with Earl Thomas...SEA drafted him with the pick we gave them for Alfonso Smith :tsk:...and Kam Chancellor is a 3rd year player who is 6'3" 230lbs and put up 97 tackles, 13 passes defended, and 4 picks in his sophomore season.

On the other hand, their CBs are products of their system. They're big and play a lot of press cover 2. Both good players, but neither are really guys that you can just drop into any scheme and expect them to excel like they're doing now. And living in the pacific northwest, I can safely say that the safeties are a huge part of what Seattle is doing on defense. In fact, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet you haven't seen much--if any--of the 'Hawks this year.


I prefer to look at what teams covet. And that's cornerbacks.

None of this tripe means moving Bailey to safety is intelligent.

If you think Denver needs safeties to win (a ridiculous idea) then they need to find safeties, not move players to that position to see if shit sticks. That's a stupid idea.

The front seven of every single team you listed was more important than the safeties you listed, and of course, you failed to even look at the cornerbacks on the teams you were looking at.

Cornerbacks allow safeties to freelance. That's why they are paid, and coveted more BY EVERY TEAM.

[Jsteve01]

This debate isn't as cut and dry as you're trying to make it guys. it's an over simplification to say that Zam and BC feel that Champ should be moved because he isn't playing corner well. The meat of the story is that because they think he would have more freedom at safety and be allowed to peek into the backfield a lot more than when playing man that he would have more impact on the game from that position. Defense isn't just about making stops it's also about creating turnovers and in all honesty Champ without a doubt would be in a better position to create turnover from the safety position. You're also overstating the value teams place on corners vs safety Mo. Mark Barron went right after Claiborne in this year's draft. Guys like Gilmore were still on the board at that point.

On the other side we've got people undervaluing a top notch corner and the impact that he has on the game. Here's a thought. If we had even a decent free safety then Champ's ability to lock down one side of the field would enhance the safety's ability to ball hawk in zone coverage on the other side of the field. I had really hoped that Moore would develop into that guy but at this point it looks like he'll be another in a long line of just average players that we've drafted at the position.

When I go back and look at the great defenses that this team has had over the years, I think of my two favorite all time defenders in Dennis Smith and Atwater. Those defenses were truly scary.

Defensive units are truly symbiotic. The most important thing for either of these positions to be effective is consistent pressure from the defensive line and to be honest, the pressure has been up and down this year. For this unit to be truly effective, the Broncos must be playing from in front and allow Wolfe Von Doome to pin their ears back, which in turn will create more opportunities for the dbs to make plays on the ball.

[bcbronc]

I prefer to look at what teams covet. And that's cornerbacks.

None of this tripe means moving Bailey to safety is intelligent.

If you think Denver needs safeties to win (a ridiculous idea) then they need to find safeties, not move players to that position to see if shit sticks. That's a stupid idea.

The front seven of every single team you listed was more important than the safeties you listed, and of course, you failed to even look at the cornerbacks on the teams you were looking at.

Cornerbacks allow safeties to freelance. That's why they are paid, and coveted more BY EVERY TEAM.

so now teams don't covet safeties? They're paid more because of the smaller population size for the skill set required of a corner and there's more on each team. EVERY TEAM covets good players, that's no secret and it doesn't matter what position you talk about, EVERY TEAM wants good players at it. Ultimately, EVERY TEAM covets Superbowls, and Superbowl champions have great safeties.

When Champ is asked about this "stupid idea" he says "I'll recoginize the time when I see it on film" he DOESN'T say "never happen, it's stupid".

And where do you get this BS that "good corners allow safeties to freelance"? lol what a ridiculous thing to say. Yeah, in NFL defences safeties just do whatever they want, whenever they want and they can only do that because of how good the CBs are. Yeah, without his CBs Troy P would be nothing. You want to talk about simplistic, lmfao!!

And no, I didn't name all the CBs on those teams. Green Bay had a great one in Charles Woodson and Tramon Williams had a probowl season. NYG I agree it was the front 4 and scheme as much as anything. NO had 2 probowl safeties (one all-pro) and no probowl CBs...Porter and Greer were starters. Pittsburgh, two good safeties, at CB strong depth more so than a high end guy (and if you don't think Polamalu isn't as important as the front 7 then you know even less than I thought). Indy, Bob Sanders and Peyton Manning, Freeney and Mathis are important, but they didn't get the job done without Sanders. NE had a pretty good defensive backfield all the way around...I don't agree that Law was the best in the game, but he was certainly a great CB.

Not one of those teams had better CBs than they did safeties...well maybe GB but they didn't use Woodson like a typical CB and he was almost a hybrid for them. But yeah, status quo, it's the way it is, some GM some where said so!! So simple.

[Jsteve01]

just an afterthought, it's interesting to me that just a few years ago people would have said that hands down WR was a more important position than TE. Fast forward to today and you can see the huge impact that athletic pass catching TEs are having on the game. Much of that is due to the evolution of the position. A position which traditionally didn't garner the best athletes on the field is now reaping the rewards of a focus of talent, which starts at the high school level. Corner has traditionally garnered a far better talent pool for obvious reasons but as the safety position has evolved from that of only enforcer to one of ball hawking turn over machines you've begun to see more athletic players at the position. Oh btw I'm still pissed that we didn't leave Browner at the position during his rookie year and give him a chance to develop. he for my money is the epitome of a player who would benefit from that type of move.

[MOtorboat]

This debate isn't as cut and dry as you're trying to make it guys. it's an over simplification to say that Zam and BC feel that Champ should be moved because he isn't playing corner well. The meat of the story is that because they think he would have more freedom at safety and be allowed to peek into the backfield a lot more than when playing man that he would have more impact on the game from that position. Defense isn't just about making stops it's also about creating turnovers and in all honesty Champ without a doubt would be in a better position to create turnover from the safety position. You're also overstating the value teams place on corners vs safety Mo. Mark Barron went right after Claiborne in this year's draft. Guys like Gilmore were still on the board at that point.

On the other side we've got people undervaluing a top notch corner and the impact that he has on the game. Here's a thought. If we had even a decent free safety then Champ's ability to lock down one side of the field would enhance the safety's ability to ball hawk in zone coverage on the other side of the field. I had really hoped that Moore would develop into that guy but at this point it looks like he'll be another in a long line of just average players that we've drafted at the position.

When I go back and look at the great defenses that this team has had over the years, I think of my two favorite all time defenders in Dennis Smith and Atwater. Those defenses were truly scary.

Defensive units are truly symbiotic. The most important thing for either of these positions to be effective is consistent pressure from the defensive line and to be honest, the pressure has been up and down this year. For this unit to be truly effective, the Broncos must be playing from in front and allow Wolfe Von Doome to pin their ears back, which in turn will create more opportunities for the dbs to make plays on the ball.

I'm not overvaluing cornerback at all. That's why they get paid. I think it's comical that people argue so hard against that. Cornerback is one of four cornerstone positions. That's not debateable. It really isn't.

The play of the cornerbacks absolutely allows safeties to freelance and make turnovers.

It's THAT exact thing that makes bcbronc and Zam think safeties are more important than cornerbacks. Highlight reels. Not intelligent analysis of scheme.

[Jsteve01]

in the past 3 drafts you've had Barron and Berry going in the top 10. Why because they have a huge impact on the game. Again I can see both sides of this argument and both sides have good ground to stand on. it's not nearly as cut and dry as either of you is attempting to make it. Also you can't just toss out BCs argument that Super Bowl caliber defenses have had more good safeties than corners. it's fact. I will say that Baltimore's defense is a horrid sample because they have truly dominant players at every level in their defense.

[Simple Jaded]

Why move Champ Bailey to a position he's never played when he is still Champ Bailey at a position he's played for almost 2 decades? It's pure speculation that he'd be anywhere near as competent at S as he is at CB, might wanna wait til he's no longer playing CB at a high level.

Then there is also the fact that Bailey just doesn't want to switch to S, reality can be such a bittch like that.......

[Chef Zambini]

Why move Champ Bailey to a position he's never played when he is still Champ Bailey at a position he's played for almost 2 decades? It's pure speculation that he'd be anywhere near as competent at S as he is at CB, might wanna wait til he's no longer playing CB at a high level.

Then there is also the fact that Bailey just doesn't want to switch to S, reality can be such a bittch like that.......why? to make the ENTIRE defense better! to do more than reduce the game to ten on ten. to allow our most talented defender to COTRIBUTE instead of being isolated on a single player of the opponents choosing , only to be ignored !

[Timmy!]

http://www.clubchopper.com/photopost/data/500/Not_This_Shit_Again.gif

[SR]

I wanna know what TheReverend thinks about this.

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