Broncos' gamble on four free-agent keepers provides big payoffs

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Sure, the names sounded great when they passed through the NFL transaction wire this year — Brandon Stokley, Keith Brooking, Jim Leonhard and Dan Koppen, all veterans who had played in conference championship games or Super Bowls, looking for another shot with a new team.

But each came with significant questions such as age (Brooking, Stokley) or injury (Leonhard, Koppen), and Broncos coach John Fox understood that the additions may have looked like crazy gambles to the rest of the league.

Now, with the Broncos in control of the AFC West at their bye week, those moves are starting to look crazy brilliant.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_21806322/wired-plenty-vets

[Joel]

There's no question Stokley>all other Broncos WRs, Koppen>Walton, Leonhard>Moore and Brooking>Mays, but that has as much to do with how bad are "starters" are as how good those FAs are. All but one plays a speed position and all but one is >30; how sad is that? I'm thrilled and deeply grateful for their solid contributions, but Leonhard and MAYBE Koppen are the only ones we can expect to have next season, let alone longer. We seriously need to invest draft picks and more than FA pocket change in guys to fill the critical holes their absence will leave. Right now Thomas is the only player I think MIGHT step up when they're gone.

[turftoad]

There's no question Stokley>all other Broncos WRs, Koppen>Walton, Leonhard>Moore and Brooking>Mays, but that has as much to do with how bad are "starters" are as how good those FAs are. All but one plays a speed position and all but one is >30; how sad is that? I'm thrilled and deeply grateful for their solid contributions, but Leonhard and MAYBE Koppen are the only ones we can expect to have next season, let alone longer. We seriously need to invest draft picks and more than FA pocket change in guys to fill the critical holes their absence will leave. Right now Thomas is the only player I think MIGHT step up when they're gone.

You only have so many draft picks Joel. It's pretty tough to have an All Pro at every position. Also to expensive.

[Poet]

You only have so many draft picks Joel. It's pretty tough to have an All Pro at every position. Also to expensive.

Great teams often are built by using every resource available.

[Chef Zambini]

I caution my fellow fans with their enthusiasm, yes, STOKELY is the best receiver on the team, thats because he is the SMARTEST !
will he and other OLD choices hold up over 16 games?
and lets not forget how the value of a FA (porter) can change from game to game.

[BroncoJoe]

Always the negative Zam.

[Jsteve01]

Stokely although reliable is not better than every other Broncos receiver. sorry

[Chef Zambini]

Stokely although reliable is not better than every other Broncos receiver. sorry

you are entitled to your opinion of course.
stkely?
tageted 21 times, 19 catches, 13 went for a FIRST DOWN, 3 MORE A TD !
yes, decker and thomas have more catches, but when PM throwa stokely the ball he is prety much a guarantee of a first down or a TD, and he catches everything and does not fumble.
he knows where he belongs on the field, and we dont have to worry about an INT because he doesnt know his route or cant figure out a hand-signal or audible.
decker and thomas, great athletes, stokely our BEST receiver !
JMHO !

[Joel]

You only have so many draft picks Joel. It's pretty tough to have an All Pro at every position. Also to expensive.
We still have $10 million in cap space, right? We didn't break the bank on guys other teams released. I'm certainly not complaining about signing them since what we had at those positions is so demonstrably bad, but we must spend more to reach higher precisely BECAUSE we have so few picks. Unless we sacrifice some to trade up, our 2013 picks won't be great if we finish with the 9±1 wins I expect.

[Poet]

If your picks aren't great that typically means you did very well. It's like complaining that you ran out of awesome things to buy because you have so much money...

[Joel]

you are entitled to your opinion of course.
stkely?
tageted 21 times, 19 catches, 13 went for a FIRST DOWN, 3 MORE A TD !
yes, decker and thomas have more catches, but when PM throwa stokely the ball he is prety much a guarantee of a first down or a TD, and he catches everything and does not fumble.
he knows where he belongs on the field, and we dont have to worry about an INT because he doesnt know his route or cant figure out a hand-signal or audible.
decker and thomas, great athletes, stokely our BEST receiver !
JMHO !
It's skill vs. talent; the latter is inborn, the former acquired. Thomas and Decker aren't ready for prime time; Thomas looks like he's getting closer, but Decker still runs poor routes and has too many drops even when not tripping over his own feet. They have the ability to be stars, but so do hundreds of others who nonetheless fail because they never gain the skill and consistency good practice habits produce.

That's one of the genuine advantages of having stars who are also teachers, like Manning and Champ. Maybe Rod Smith, Elway and Manning combined can make something of Thomas and/or Decker. I still think a lot of Chris Harris' steady improvement is down to emulating Champ. I could easily see him starting opposite Porter and Champ moving to safety next year; with Carter as our #3 CB and Adams/Leonhard as our other safeties that might make our secondary pretty fierce. Unfortunately there is little cause for such optimism at G or MLB unless Koppen can have a similar effect.

[Joel]

If your picks aren't great that typically means you did very well. It's like complaining that you ran out of awesome things to buy because you have so much money...
No, it just means you didn't do very awful. It was one of the perennial frustrations of all Shannys 9-7 teams: Not good enough for the playoffs; not bad enough for the draft picks to get there next year.

[bcbronc]

No offense Joel but your talent evaluation has proven to be pretty horrible over the past couple of years. I guess I should just be thankful your not calling DT a bust anymore...baby steps I guess.

[MOtorboat]

Isn't Thomas something like second in the league in yards and receptions?

[dogfish]

Isn't Thomas something like second in the league in yards and receptions?

i bet he'd make a great safety. . .

[Poet]

No, it just means you didn't do very awful. It was one of the perennial frustrations of all Shannys 9-7 teams: Not good enough for the playoffs; not bad enough for the draft picks to get there next year.

Uhh...Your post implied better than 9-7.

[Chef Zambini]

If your picks aren't great that typically means you did very well. It's like complaining that you ran out of awesome things to buy because you have so much money...the draft every year offers 200 * players to choose from, typicly a team gets to pick 5-6 of those 200
if you cant find 3or 4 guys to help your team,,, you suck ! i dont give a rats ass where you are picking, if you cant find 4 cherries out of 200 pieces of fruit, and its your job to find cherries, you suck!

[Chef Zambini]

film, college career, combine,interviews, evaluations.
I have no sympathy for ANY organization that cant use their drAFT picks wisely, none! and i dont give a rats arse who the org is or where they picked in the draft.

[MOtorboat]

film, college career, combine,interviews, evaluations.
I have no sympathy for ANY organization that cant use their drAFT picks wisely, none! and i dont give a rats arse who the org is or where they picked in the draft.

That's the funny part. You never compare organizations fairly to the Broncos. You cherry pick every team's best picks and compare them to the Broncos entire draft portfolio. That, of course, is not a very logical argument.

For example, did you know the Ravens have drafted seven safeties in the last six drafts? Even with the player you opine for regularly, they've drafted seven safeties in the last six drafts, and are STILL stuck with Bernard Pollard, who looked like an absolute waste in Kansas City and still regularly gets beat in coverage.

[Chef Zambini]

ooh, Im so mean torwards the broncos, how fortunate they are to have you as their watchdog to make sure i do not inpune them unfairly.
cherry pickin, it has both good and bad conotations and examples.
I cherry pick another teams success, you cherry pick a teams failures.
I say day, you say night, I say black, you say white. I post you follow emmediatly to argue

ying

[MOtorboat]

ooh, Im so mean torwards the broncos, how fortunate they are to have you as their watchdog to make sure i do not inpune them unfairly.
cherry pickin, it has both good and bad conotations and examples.
I cherry pick another teams success, you cherry pick a teams failures.
I say day, you say night, I say black, you say white. I post you follow emmediatly to argue

ying

So, basically, you don't have a good rebuttal to someone who actually does the research.

Typical.

[dogfish]

ooh, Im so mean torwards the broncos, how fortunate they are to have you as their watchdog to make sure i do not inpune them unfairly.
cherry pickin, it has both good and bad conotations and examples.
I cherry pick another teams success, you cherry pick a teams failures.
I say day, you say night, I say black, you say white. I post you follow emmediatly to argue

ying

you are the white whale to MO's ahab. . .

[bcbronc]

That's the funny part. You never compare organizations fairly to the Broncos. You cherry pick every team's best picks and compare them to the Broncos entire draft portfolio. That, of course, is not a very logical argument.

For example, did you know the Ravens have drafted seven safeties in the last six drafts? Even with the player you opine for regularly, they've drafted seven safeties in the last six drafts, and are STILL stuck with Bernard Pollard, who looked like an absolute waste in Kansas City and still regularly gets beat in coverage.

So you're saying one of the best personnel teams in the league puts a massive emphasis on safety? Hmmmm......

[Chef Zambini]

So, basically, you don't have a good rebuttal to someone who actually does the research.

Typical.what research?
you proclaim 6 safeties drafted and call it reszearech?
how many in rounds 3 or earlier?
how many still with team?
how many injured?
the RAVENS, a team with a HISTORY of quality DEFENSE. have spent drat choices on SAFETIES! weird how you wonty acknowledge THAT reseaerch and what it says about the VALUE of a SAFETY versusd a CORNER !
how many corners have they drafted during the same timespan?
the ravens are intent on finding ther next ed reed, your only intention is finding something to argue against zambini.

[Chef Zambini]

So you're saying one of the best personnel teams in the league puts a massive emphasis on safety? Hmmmm......
BINGO ! the reactionary Mo is always going to expose his KING !

[MOtorboat]

So you're saying one of the best personnel teams in the league puts a massive emphasis on safety? Hmmmm......

No. That's not the point at all (it wasn't even close to the argument being made, but thanks for the shift to emphasize how wrong zam's new argument was). Frankly, it's still funny that anyone believes safety is more important than cornerback. Based on salary, productivity and demand, you're wrong. Dead wrong.

However, that wasn't the argument on hand.

The argument on hand was that every team should get 3 or 4 starters or productive players out of every seven draft picks.

I simply pointed out that Baltimore, who has Ed Reed and is repeatedly pointed out by Zam as a model drafting team, has drafted seven safeties in the last six years and none have panned out. They looked to an older free agent (wait, did I just say "older free agent" - that might ring a bell, because its the point of the thread) to fill in.

[MOtorboat]

what research?
you proclaim 6 safeties drafted and call it reszearech?
how many in rounds 3 or earlier?
how many still with team?
how many injured?
the RAVENS, a team with a HISTORY of quality DEFENSE. have spent drat choices on SAFETIES! weird how you wonty acknowledge THAT reseaerch and what it says about the VALUE of a SAFETY versusd a CORNER !
how many corners have they drafted during the same timespan?
the ravens are intent on finding ther next ed reed, your only intention is finding something to argue against zambini.

Their best defensive draft pick in the last eight years is a cornerback. Ledarius Webb.

Webb has much more of an impact even than the great Ed Reed, but I wouldn't expect you to even remotely begin to understand it on any sort of intellectual football level. You've proven time and time again that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[topscribe]

There's no question Stokley>all other Broncos WRs, Koppen>Walton, Leonhard>Moore and Brooking>Mays, but that has as much to do with how bad are "starters" are as how good those FAs are. All but one plays a speed position and all but one is >30; how sad is that? I'm thrilled and deeply grateful for their solid contributions, but Leonhard and MAYBE Koppen are the only ones we can expect to have next season, let alone longer. We seriously need to invest draft picks and more than FA pocket change in guys to fill the critical holes their absence will leave. Right now Thomas is the only player I think MIGHT step up when they're gone.
Peyton referred to Stokley as the best slot receiver in football, even mentioning
Welker in the process. Koppen was a starter on an elite team until just this year.
Leonhard was highly thought of where he came from and was stymied by injury,
not deterioration of skills (as he demonstrated against Gates). Brooking has been
a Pro Bowler several times in his career. Regardless of how good or bad the
players were that they replaced, these FAs do have their own credentials.
.

[Simple Jaded]

Got news for ya, Chicken Little, Demaryious Thomas is already better than Stokley. Whatta clown.......

[bcbronc]

No. That's not the point at all (it wasn't even close to the argument being made, but thanks for the shift to emphasize how wrong zam's new argument was). Frankly, it's still funny that anyone believes safety is more important than cornerback. Based on salary, productivity and demand, you're wrong. Dead wrong.

I'm dead wrong, yet you just claimed Baltimore sees safety as so important they take one almost every year despite having one of the best. Although to be fair, I don't see who these 6 safeties in 7 years are when I look at Baltimore's recent draft history.

Salary is simply a result of the market, not value placed. First, the skill set of a truly elite CB is very rare. Second, almost every organization keeps more CBs on the roster than safeties...it's very common to see 3 or 4 CB packages, much less common to see more than 2 safeties on the field. If the average roster breakdown is 6 CBs + 4 Ss, that's an extra 64 CBs on rosters. More need equals higher price tag, but more need is a result of offensive sets not overall value.


However, that wasn't the argument on hand.


Oh I know. But arguments don't exist in a vacuum...at least not sound ones.


The argument on hand was that every team should get 3 or 4 starters or productive players out of every seven draft picks.

I simply pointed out that Baltimore, who has Ed Reed and is repeatedly pointed out by Zam as a model drafting team, has drafted seven safeties in the last six years and none have panned out. They looked to an older free agent (wait, did I just say "older free agent" - that might ring a bell, because its the point of the thread) to fill in.

I don't think expecting 3-4 picks on average to become productive players is unrealistic. Some years you'll have 4-5, some years 2-3, and what counts as "productive" will be open to interpretation, but imo you should get production from your 1st at least 75% of the time and then get 1-2 more players at least each year. Obviously uncontrollable variables like the strength of the draft class will factor in, but if your FO can't find an average of 3 or so productive players each draft year, they probably won't keep their jobs that long.

Fox is known as a guy who prefers vets to rookies, so it shouldn't be a surprise that he brings in older guys to at least compete for playing time. Especially when QC had injury issues in camp and DJ had suspension issues.

[Chef Zambini]

Their best defensive draft pick in the last eight years is a cornerback. Ledarius Webb.

Webb has much more of an impact even than the great Ed Reed, but I wouldn't expect you to even remotely begin to understand it on any sort of intellectual football level. You've proven time and time again that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.when was suggs drafted 9 years ago?

[Chef Zambini]

you failed to answr my question,.omething you always accuse me of doing. how many corners have the drafted in the same time span. you mention webb whay round was he drafted?
mo, if you really wanted to have a legitimate discussion there wou;ld be full disc;osure from your researech, but your primary focus and fixation is on trying to discredit ANY post, and i do mean ANY that i would make.
you cant possibly allow yourself to take an objective view on ANY subject where i have stated an opinion, your emmediate and reactionary response is to find anything you can to counter that opinion.
it is so contrived and hostile you often contradict yourself in the process.

[MOtorboat]

I'm dead wrong, yet you just claimed Baltimore sees safety as so important they take one almost every year despite having one of the best. Although to be fair, I don't see who these 6 safeties in 7 years are when I look at Baltimore's recent draft history.

Plenty of DBs taken. None starting. Except a cornerback.


Salary is simply a result of the market, not value placed. First, the skill set of a truly elite CB is very rare. Second, almost every organization keeps more CBs on the roster than safeties...it's very common to see 3 or 4 CB packages, much less common to see more than 2 safeties on the field. If the average roster breakdown is 6 CBs + 4 Ss, that's an extra 64 CBs on rosters. More need equals higher price tag, but more need is a result of offensive sets not overall value.

Incorrect.

To use an earlier example: Ledarius Webb makes more than Ed Reed.

Cornerback is more important to General Managers. It's not debateable. In fact, it's kind of laughable that anyone does try to disagree with the idea. Cornerback is a cornerstone position, along with quarterback, left tackle and rush end.

I like how you continue to debate this, but it's not debateable.


Oh I know. But arguments don't exist in a vacuum...at least not sound ones.

Exactly. Cornerback is more important than safety in the eyes of everybody who matters.



I don't think expecting 3-4 picks on average to become productive players is unrealistic. Some years you'll have 4-5, some years 2-3, and what counts as "productive" will be open to interpretation, but imo you should get production from your 1st at least 75% of the time and then get 1-2 more players at least each year. Obviously uncontrollable variables like the strength of the draft class will factor in, but if your FO can't find an average of 3 or so productive players each draft year, they probably won't keep their jobs that long.

Fox is known as a guy who prefers vets to rookies, so it shouldn't be a surprise that he brings in older guys to at least compete for playing time. Especially when QC had injury issues in camp and DJ had suspension issues.

Do the research. Is 3 or 4 picks normal, or not?

Don't make the blanket statement, unless you've done the research.

[MOtorboat]

you failed to answr my question,.omething you always accuse me of doing. how many corners have the drafted in the same time span. you mention webb whay round was he drafted?
mo, if you really wanted to have a legitimate discussion there wou;ld be full disc;osure from your researech, but your primary focus and fixation is on trying to discredit ANY post, and i do mean ANY that i would make.
you cant possibly allow yourself to take an objective view on ANY subject where i have stated an opinion, your emmediate and reactionary response is to find anything you can to counter that opinion.
it is so contrived and hostile you often contradict yourself in the process.

Third Round.

He's a shutdown corner. Paid more than Ed Reed.

And I believe they've drafted three cornerbacks.

Get over yourself. Egomaniac...

[Chef Zambini]

... and suggs?
he must be a NINE year vet since webb is the best defender they have drafted in the last 8 years?
WTF does PAY matter?
ask albert hainsworth !
I think sam bradford is making more coin than tom brady aaron rogers, he must be better and more valuable?
MO I dont give a shit about the payroll, the best defensive TEAMS all have great safeties!
the best corners all have huge paychecks, but that does NOT guarantee they have a successful team defense, just a singular favorable one on one match-up that ANY good QB and offense can avoid.
the best corners all have huge contracts, but they do NOT guarantee TEAM success,

[Chef Zambini]

research:
since 2004 the ravens have used 4 draft picks to select a corner and 4 draft picks to select a safety

additional research:
in the entire history of the NFL no team has hired MO as a consutant, and no GM or scout has ever asked him for his opinion.
and I even heard a rumor that one year Mo went trick or treating at ELWAYS house and they didnt even answer the door.
the next day Mo went to walgreens and bought one of those giant 'front doormat sized" hershey bars and told everyone he got it from ELWAY.
its just a rumor i heard, I dont have a copy of his walgreens recept.

[MOtorboat]

additional research:
in the entire history of the NFL no team has hired MO as a consutant, and no GM or scout has ever asked him for his opinion.
and I even heard a rumor that one year Mo went trick or treating at ELWAYS house and they didnt even answer the door.
the next day Mo went to walgreens and bought one of those giant 'front doormat sized" hershey bars and told everyone he got it from ELWAY.
its just a rumor i heard, I dont have a copy of his walgreens recept.

So when were you hired by an NFL team?

[MOtorboat]

research:
since 2004 the ravens have used 4 draft picks to select a corner and 4 draft picks to select a safety

And they've selected 10 defensive backs since 2004, so obviously your math doesn't add up very well.

[MOtorboat]

when was suggs drafted 9 years ago?

He was drafted in 2003. I went back to 2004.

You can make arguments that Ngata and Suggs were better draft picks than Lardarius Webb, but I'll stand by my opinion.

And I looked again. Seven safeties since 2004, and they are starting Bernard Pollard.

[Ravage!!!]

Corner absolutely is more important to GMs and coaches, and bc...you explained WHY when you attempted to tell MO how he was wrong. The MARKET pays the players based on their value to a team. Why do you think LTs became such high paid players...along with Pass rushing DE's?? It wasn't always that way. 2) Corner skill sets that make them top corners are HARDER to find, thus, more rare, thus... a larger priority to have a good one.

3) If a team has MORE corners on their roster each and every year, yet, the prices for corners are HIGHER than safety, doesn't that show that there is an abundance of corners compared to safeties and they are STILL paid more? That says a lot, because usually a saturation of a market will lower the price.

Also... Stokely is not the best WR on the team. Right now, he's just the one that knows Peyton better than anyone else. Who's the WR targeted the most on the team? Its not stokely.

[Poet]

Mo, Jimmy Smith is their best corner and I've seen Webb get it handed to him a lot in his brief career.

[MOtorboat]

Mo, Jimmy Smith is their best corner and I've seen Webb get it handed to him a lot in his brief career.

I'll disagree...

But I think the underlying point here, which zam completely whiffs on when talking about safety, is that the Ravens have two very solid, if not good, corners that allows Ed Reed to freelance like he does and make highlight reels.

His argument, of course, is that Ed Reed is good, so Denver should move Champ Bailey to the position Ed Reed plays. What he fails to recognize is that Denver does not have cornerbacks the caliber of Smith and Webb that would allow Bailey to freelance. That's one reason you keep Bailey at cornerback (There are many more).

Having a solid safety in Jim Leonherd back there (the free agent) is more important to the team than moving Bailey back there.

[Chef Zambini]

So when were you hired by an NFL team?
I was hired by the san diego chargers to post on bronco threads and lower the exoectations of their readers, thus undermining the web-wide enthusiasm diminishing the players desire to win.
it was aj smiths idea, just goes to show you what an idiot he is!

[Chef Zambini]

I'll disagree...

But I think the underlying point here, which zam completely whiffs on when talking about safety, is that the Ravens have two very solid, if not good, corners that allows Ed Reed to freelance like he does and make highlight reels.

His argument, of course, is that Ed Reed is good, so Denver should move Champ Bailey to the position Ed Reed plays. What he fails to recognize is that Denver does not have cornerbacks the caliber of Smith and Webb that would allow Bailey to freelance. That's one reason you keep Bailey at cornerback (There are many more).

Having a solid safety in Jim Leonherd back there (the free agent) is more important to the team than moving Bailey back there.this is your first best post on the subject as it relates to safety value vs corner value. the 'free-lance safety" is definatly the concept I am proposing, and it must work in tandem with the corners. a 1 on 1 cover corner is a rare bread, that has physical skills that cant be taught, speed and height, as well as vertical leap. thats why GMS pay more for the product. a freelance SAFETY is one that is DEVELOPED by the team, brains and football intuition are more critical than physical talent, therefore GMs are not compelled to pay as much, a response to your notion that since they get paid more, they are valued more! I find it interesting and revealing thaT YOU ignore WHAT A dc CONSIDERS MORE VALUABLE!
fat lard assed pieces of shit DCs like the ryan brothers value cover corners so they can BLITZ more. brilliant, creative rational dcs like mike nolan and the pittsburg Dc as well as HCs with defensive backgrounds prefer the value of an instinctive safety who can disrupt an offense by putting hinself in the right place at key plays during the game instead of just consistently and exclusively just repeatedly and just follow the same receiver to the bathroom.

[MOtorboat]

a freelance SAFETY is one that is DEVELOPED by the team, brains and football intuition are more critical than physical talent, therefore GMs are not compelled to pay as much, a response to your notion that since they get paid more, they are valued more! I find it interesting and revealing thaT YOU ignore WHAT A dc CONSIDERS MORE VALUABLE!

Wrong.

100 percent wrong.

It's not even a debateable point, which is why its so ludicrous that you try to argue it.

And out of curiousity can you find those defensive coordinators actually stating that safety is more important than cornerback? And I don't mean your made up "Nolan wanted Bailey to play safety" argument.

[Ravage!!!]

a freelance SAFETY is one that is DEVELOPED by the team, brains and football intuition are more critical than physical talent, therefore GMs are not compelled to pay as much, a response to your notion that since they get paid more, they are valued more! I find it interesting and revealing thaT YOU ignore WHAT A dc CONSIDERS MORE VALUABLE!


Yeah, this is just flat out wrong.

[Chef Zambini]

I'll disagree...

But I think the underlying point here, which zam completely whiffs on when talking about safety, is that the Ravens have two very solid, if not good, corners that allows Ed Reed to freelance like he does and make highlight reels.

His argument, of course, is that Ed Reed is good, so Denver should move Champ Bailey to the position Ed Reed plays. What he fails to recognize is that Denver does not have cornerbacks the caliber of Smith and Webb that would allow Bailey to freelance. That's one reason you keep Bailey at cornerback (There are many more).

Having a solid safety in Jim Leonherd back there (the free agent) is more important to the team than moving Bailey back there.
MO, the best team defenses in the NFL are NOT distinguished by their singular great cover corner, they all however share the similarity of a great tndem of safeties that can disrupt both run and pass
do yourself a favor Mr. research, identify the top 5 defenses currently in the NFL and checkout thier make-up.
pitsburg is not one of the top 5 this year, thats because their pro-bowl safety is OUT. 9you of course will choose to ignore that fact)
try to ignore that it is my contention and just allow yourself to do an un-biased research project.
and if you want to spend the $ on archive material, tyhere is plenty of discussion in the washington post about mike nolan wanting to switch CHAMP to SAFETY while he was still in DC for the very reasons I continue to suggest that champ would be more EFFECTIVE for the TEAM defense as a SAFETY !

[Poet]

I'll disagree...

But I think the underlying point here, which zam completely whiffs on when talking about safety, is that the Ravens have two very solid, if not good, corners that allows Ed Reed to freelance like he does and make highlight reels.

His argument, of course, is that Ed Reed is good, so Denver should move Champ Bailey to the position Ed Reed plays. What he fails to recognize is that Denver does not have cornerbacks the caliber of Smith and Webb that would allow Bailey to freelance. That's one reason you keep Bailey at cornerback (There are many more).

Having a solid safety in Jim Leonherd back there (the free agent) is more important to the team than moving Bailey back there.

But Reed has been freelancing for years when that secondary was awful. That just happens, no DC on earth will ever tell Reed to not do what he does. I think you're attributing something that's been a constant for years to guys right now. Also, Smith is the guy that they usually put on the other team's number one WR.

[MOtorboat]

and if you want to spend the $ on archive material, tyhere is plenty of discussion in the washington post about mike nolan wanting to switch CHAMP to SAFETY while he was still in DC for the very reasons I continue to suggest that champ would be more EFFECTIVE for the TEAM defense as a SAFETY !

I have spent the time.

It's not there. Find the link and I'll believe you.

[Chef Zambini]

Yeah, this is just flat out wrong.
of course I am wrong, and john lynch just proves what an idiot i am.

[Poet]

Zam, why you troll so hard?

[Chef Zambini]

I have spent the time.

It's not there. Find the link and I'll believe you.
said the world to Darwin.

[MOtorboat]

But Reed has been freelancing for years when that secondary was awful. That just happens, no DC on earth will ever tell Reed to not do what he does. I think you're attributing something that's been a constant for years to guys right now. Also, Smith is the guy that they usually put on the other team's number one WR.

When was that secondary awful? Before Webb and Smith they had Chris McAlister and Samari Rolle.

They did let Dawan Landry go at safety, instead of signing him...

[MOtorboat]

of course I am wrong, and john lynch just proves what an idiot i am.

Lynch doesn't prove a damn thing. He was an absolute coverage liability.

[MOtorboat]

said the world to Darwin.

Find the link.

[Poet]

When was that secondary awful? Before Webb and Smith they had Chris McAlister and Samari Rolle.

They did let Dawan Landry go at safety, instead of signing him...

They've been awful for a long time, that's how the Bengals with Palmer used to beat them. McCallister had about five injury plauged years and one corner in Rolle who aged and declined fast. Trust me, their defensive backfield for a long time sucked ass. Remember when they signed Foxworth out of desperation? I can't tell you how many times I heard Bengals players in the huddle of sideline talk about how they can't cover anyone.

[MOtorboat]

MO, the best team defenses in the NFL are NOT distinguished by their singular great cover corner, they all however share the similarity of a great tndem of safeties that can disrupt both run and pass
do yourself a favor Mr. research, identify the top 5 defenses currently in the NFL and checkout thier make-up.
pitsburg is not one of the top 5 this year, thats because their pro-bowl safety is OUT. 9you of course will choose to ignore that fact)
try to ignore that it is my contention and just allow yourself to do an un-biased research project.
and if you want to spend the $ on archive material, tyhere is plenty of discussion in the washington post about mike nolan wanting to switch CHAMP to SAFETY while he was still in DC for the very reasons I continue to suggest that champ would be more EFFECTIVE for the TEAM defense as a SAFETY !

The top five defenses in the league right now are: Chicago, Arizona, San Francisco, Tampa Bay and Seattle.

The best defensive backfield players for those five teams are:
Charles Tillman, CB
Patrick Peterson, CB
Dashon Goldson, S
Eric Wright, CB
Richard Sherman, CB

Thanks for playing.

[Ravage!!!]

People/posters/fans have been saying "we sh ould move Champ to safety" for years. Why? Because they see Ed Reed and think its a good move. Yet, DC after DC after DC after DC keeps Champ at corner BECAUSE it allows the defense MANY MORE options with a Champ at corner than it does with him at safety. Eventually, Champ will lose enough that moving him to safety will be the right move.

That's when we'll hear Zam say "see, I told ya so."

[swaiy]

Moving Champ would be dumb at this point. No CB behind him on the depth chart can shut down one side of the field and leave the safety to do something else. Fox mentions that somewhere but Im not about to find it.

[Poet]

I searched five minutes on google (because I refuse to wrap up this damned paper) and found nothing about Nolan wanting to move Champ Bailey.

[swaiy]

MO, the best team defenses in the NFL are NOT distinguished by their singular great cover corner, they all however share the similarity of a great tndem of safeties that can disrupt both run and pass
do yourself a favor Mr. research, identify the top 5 defenses currently in the NFL and checkout thier make-up.
pitsburg is not one of the top 5 this year, thats because their pro-bowl safety is OUT. 9you of course will choose to ignore that fact)
try to ignore that it is my contention and just allow yourself to do an un-biased research project.
and if you want to spend the $ on archive material, tyhere is plenty of discussion in the washington post about mike nolan wanting to switch CHAMP to SAFETY while he was still in DC for the very reasons I continue to suggest that champ would be more EFFECTIVE for the TEAM defense as a SAFETY !

Youre the only one that keeps saying this yet you want everyone else to prove you wrong. The burden of proof is on you since youre the only one asserting this opinion.

[MOtorboat]

I searched five minutes on google (because I refuse to wrap up this damned paper) and found nothing about Nolan wanting to move Champ Bailey.

It doesn't exist. Zam has been asked to link to his source a number of times. He never can.

The last time he linked to, I think, a Minnesota Vikings message board that had the words "Champ Bailey" "Mike Nolan" and "Safety" on the same 20-post page.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

MO, the best team defenses in the NFL are NOT distinguished by their singular great cover corner, they all however share the similarity of a great tndem of safeties that can disrupt both run and pass
do yourself a favor Mr. research, identify the top 5 defenses currently in the NFL and checkout thier make-up.
pitsburg is not one of the top 5 this year, thats because their pro-bowl safety is OUT. 9you of course will choose to ignore that fact)
try to ignore that it is my contention and just allow yourself to do an un-biased research project.
and if you want to spend the $ on archive material, tyhere is plenty of discussion in the washington post about mike nolan wanting to switch CHAMP to SAFETY while he was still in DC for the very reasons I continue to suggest that champ would be more EFFECTIVE for the TEAM defense as a SAFETY !

Let's add some pieces to the puzzle - Champ was traded to the Broncos, and after that, Nolan became the DC for the Broncos - did you EVER read any article, while Nolan was with the Broncos, showing that he wanted to switch Champ to Safety?

ALSO - article written on 10-17-12, in regards to switching Champ to safety:

some things from article:


Q: What are the chances of moving Omar Bolden into a corner spot and Champ (Bailey) to a free safety spot? Do you think that would slow down the air attack from the pass-happy teams?

However, the question about that move is always value.

His value to the Broncos defense is still greatest as a cornerback. He can still slice off a major portion of an offense's game plan because he can take a primary receiver out of the game.

It does mean the ball also doesn't come his way much at times. To move him to safety when he is still the team's best cornerback, however, would make the Broncos weaker at one of the most important positions in the formation.

full article - http://www.denverpost.com/popular/ci_21785666?source=pop_neighbors_greeley

[swaiy]

I searched for the article Zam was talking about. Guess what came up? A thread made on these very forums on May 22nd about an article saying Champ is still a corner. In that thread, Zam is saying Champ refused to play S for Nolan in Washington and refused when he was here. He also says that coaches would rather have Troy Polamalu instead of Champ because he doesnt "run away" from plays like Champ. I guess if you keep repeating the same shit it might come true... or you look like an absolute nut. :listen:

[Ravage!!!]

Most personnel executives I know, including Broncos executive vice president of football operations John Elway, would rank quarterback, left tackle and edge rusher as the three most important building-block positions when putting together a roster.

Next in line, however, for most is a big-time cornerback.

...

[Day1BroncoFan]

If a great safety is gold then a great CB must be diamonds. :nod:

[DenBronx]

I could barely get through some of the initial comments before my brain started imploding.

Someone said Stokely is better than ALL our other WRs. No.....sorry but he is not. Look, I love Stoke and think he has been great for the team through the years but he is no Thomas or Decker. DT and Decker make explosive plays and stretch the field. Granted they both has made some bad plays too but I think down the stretch their numbers will greatly spread apart from Stokes. Just look at the receiving stats on ESPN and you will see that Thomas is in the top 6 and Decker in the top 15.

Stoke has been a key player. He knows how to get open and he has very good hands, plus he knows a Manning style offense. But to say he is better than Thomas is pure insanity.

[Simple Jaded]

I could barely get through some of the initial comments before my brain started imploding.

Someone said Stokely is better than ALL our other WRs. No.....sorry but he is not. Look, I love Stoke and think he has been great for the team through the years but he is no Thomas or Decker. DT and Decker make explosive plays and stretch the field. Granted they both has made some bad plays too but I think down the stretch their numbers will greatly spread apart from Stokes. Just look at the receiving stats on ESPN and you will see that Thomas is in the top 6 and Decker in the top 15.

Stoke has been a key player. He knows how to get open and he has very good hands, plus he knows a Manning style offense. But to say he is better than Thomas is pure insanity.

Yeah, but the change at QB doesn't look stupid if there is actual talent around Manning. The posters intention is to wipe his ass with just about anything that justifies the signing "The Next Steve DeBerg" because his favorite QB is now a backup RB for the Jets.......

[DenBronx]

Yeah, but the change at QB doesn't look stupid if there is actual talent around Manning. The posters intention is to wipe his ass with just about anything that justifies the signing "The Next Steve DeBerg" because his favorite QB is now a backup RB for the Jets.......

I don't know how anyone is still crying for Tebow when we have Manning. Either they havent watched football from 1998 until now or they just arent a Bronco fan.

[topscribe]

I could barely get through some of the initial comments before my brain started imploding.

Someone said Stokely is better than ALL our other WRs. No.....sorry but he is not. Look, I love Stoke and think he has been great for the team through the years but he is no Thomas or Decker. DT and Decker make explosive plays and stretch the field. Granted they both has made some bad plays too but I think down the stretch their numbers will greatly spread apart from Stokes. Just look at the receiving stats on ESPN and you will see that Thomas is in the top 6 and Decker in the top 15.

Stoke has been a key player. He knows how to get open and he has very good hands, plus he knows a Manning style offense. But to say he is better than Thomas is pure insanity.
While what you're saying is true, it is actually apples & oranges. Stokes is a
slot receiver, and the others are outside receivers. DT would not be a good
slot receiver. Decker is decent there, but he's better on the outside. Stokes
would not be a very good outside receiver, but he is elite in the slot. But if
it came down to sheer value, DT and Decker are almost indispensable now.
That's the way my little pea brain sees it, anyway . . .
.

[Simple Jaded]

I don't know how anyone is still crying for Tebow when we have Manning. Either they havent watched football from 1998 until now or they just arent a Bronco fan.

I just love the fact that said fan bemoans the Broncos using their money to sign Manning in free agency because he would rather they use that their money in.......wait for it.......that's right, free agency.

Seems as though he is just fine with somebody else using their money to sign free agents just so long as none of those free agents replace Tim Tebow.......

[cmc0605]

Interesting arguments. Two points to make:

1) The importance of the safety position is growing in recent years, and I suspect will continue to do so as the tight end standard grows to what people like Gronkowski, Graham, etc are producing. To play with the big boys, it is now absolutely essential that you can defend opposing TEs, some of whom are now the biggest threat on various teams. That said, it's still the case that given a choice between an elite corner and an elite safety, most teams want the elite corner. There are only one or two safeties (like Polamalu) who have a comparable or better impact on a game than the ability to take away a QBs favorite weapon. And even here, Polamalu's presence diminishes significantly when he's 15 yards back from the line of scrimmage.

Champ's value is still at CB. If you watch the games, he is still avoided, and #1 receiver don't usually make big plays when working on him. You can test him a little bit more than a few years back (when he intercepted every other ball on his side of the field) but he's still playing at a higher level than 90% of the corners out there. It is also not self-evident that he will be a great safety. He does have great ball skills, tackling ability, and instincts, but the nuances of the position will still need to be learned.

2) On the Stokley debate, I won't argue for or against him being the best on our team. However, experience is a big plus to have. Remember when he caught that deflected pass against Cincinnati in week 1 a few seasons back to give us the win? And as he was near the goal line he began to run parallel to the end zone to kill off some remaining seconds? That kind of stuff is what separates him from the youth, and is invaluable. I'd take Stokley on a must have 3rd and 7 inside the two minute warning over the other guys, but I'd take Thomas and Decker for an entire game or season. I think Thomas and Decker have matured and are now much better than a lot of people still (don't) give them credit for. The drops have slowed since the first couple weeks, and minus a few laughable plays like "the trip," they are among the top WR tandems in the league, and are both in the top 15 WR category at this point in the season.

[MOtorboat]

Interesting arguments. Two points to make:

1) The importance of the safety position is growing in recent years, and I suspect will continue to do so as the tight end standard grows to what people like Gronkowski, Graham, etc are producing. To play with the big boys, it is now absolutely essential that you can defend opposing TEs, some of whom are now the biggest threat on various teams. That said, it's still the case that given a choice between an elite corner and an elite safety, most teams want the elite corner. There are only one or two safeties (like Polamalu) who have a comparable or better impact on a game than the ability to take away a QBs favorite weapon. And even here, Polamalu's presence diminishes significantly when he's 15 yards back from the line of scrimmage.

Champ's value is still at CB. If you watch the games, he is still avoided, and #1 receiver don't usually make big plays when working on him. You can test him a little bit more than a few years back (when he intercepted every other ball on his side of the field) but he's still playing at a higher level than 90% of the corners out there. It is also not self-evident that he will be a great safety. He does have great ball skills, tackling ability, and instincts, but the nuances of the position will still need to be learned.

2) On the Stokley debate, I won't argue for or against him being the best on our team. However, experience is a big plus to have. Remember when he caught that deflected pass against Cincinnati in week 1 a few seasons back to give us the win? And as he was near the goal line he began to run parallel to the end zone to kill off some remaining seconds? That kind of stuff is what separates him from the youth, and is invaluable. I'd take Stokley on a must have 3rd and 7 inside the two minute warning over the other guys, but I'd take Thomas and Decker for an entire game or season. I think Thomas and Decker have matured and are now much better than a lot of people still (don't) give them credit for. The drops have slowed since the first couple weeks, and minus a few laughable plays like "the trip," they are among the top WR tandems in the league, and are both in the top 15 WR category at this point in the season.

Reed and Polamalu are liabilities against the pass. Are they liabilities like we're talking about the Broncos safeties in pass situations? No. But the are not good cover safeties. I think teams are going to put more emphasis on weak side and strong side linebacker in coverage more than safety.

Its not "avoiding" Bailey. It's that Bailey has the ability to shut down one side of the field. Part of Denver's success against San Diego was when San Diego lined up in trips (to either side) in order to get a one on one match up at the opposite receiver position, that Denver was able to play Champ straight up, which TOOK AWAY that option for Rivers. He was then forced to throw into a shaded zone to the trips side. Denver dominated that aspect of the game in the second half, and even several times in the first half too.

[Poet]

It's worth noting that Reed used to be amazing in coverage and Polamalu was good in coverage before his wheels feel off.

[MOtorboat]

Zam,

Are you watching Charles Tillman tonigth?

[DenBronx]

While what you're saying is true, it is actually apples & oranges. Stokes is a
slot receiver, and the others are outside receivers. DT would not be a good
slot receiver. Decker is decent there, but he's better on the outside. Stokes
would not be a very good outside receiver, but he is elite in the slot. But if
it came down to sheer value, DT and Decker are almost indispensable now.
That's the way my little pea brain sees it, anyway . . .
.

You're right Top. No way Thomas could play slot but I just see him and Decker making overall bigger and more explosive plays. Remember when we had Rod Smith and Eddie Mac, would we have said the slot guy was the better WR? I know Stoke is leaps and bounds better as a slot guy but Manning is going to hit whoever is open anyway. And I see Decker and Thomas putting up much bigger numbers by the time the year ends.

[Chef Zambini]

yes, will champ take mega on every play like tillman?

[dogfish]

yes, will champ take mega on every play like tillman?


man, i just typed out this huge-ass, rambling response. . . and then i realized we don't even play detroit this year. . . :lol:

[TXBRONC]

Let's add some pieces to the puzzle - Champ was traded to the Broncos, and after that, Nolan became the DC for the Broncos - did you EVER read any article, while Nolan was with the Broncos, showing that he wanted to switch Champ to Safety?

ALSO - article written on 10-17-12, in regards to switching Champ to safety:

some things from article:



full article - http://www.denverpost.com/popular/ci_21785666?source=pop_neighbors_greeley

When handling a post like this one from Zam you need to wear a Hazmat suit because he pulled it out of butt. None of the defensive cooridnators that we've had over the last few years have ever suggested moving Champ. Some fans have made the silly assumption that Champ will be eventually moved safety to prolong his career. And why? Because Rod Woodson did it therefore Champ Bailey has to want to do that as well.

[TXBRONC]

You're right Top. No way Thomas could play slot but I just see him and Decker making overall bigger and more explosive plays. Remember when we had Rod Smith and Eddie Mac, would we have said the slot guy was the better WR? I know Stoke is leaps and bounds better as a slot guy but Manning is going to hit whoever is open anyway. And I see Decker and Thomas putting up much bigger numbers by the time the year ends.

As of right now both Thomas and Decker are on pace to catch 80 plus pass, over 1,200 yards receiving and eight touchdowns a piece.

Joel if you're going the claim that Stokely is the best receiver on the team I would suggest adding something measurable to that argument. Stokely is a slot receiver and is trusted receiver but unless something changes for worse Thomas and Decker are going get the bulk of Manning attention individually and as a tandem.