Is Rap a Good source for Fact gathering?

[eessydo]

:confused:

[anton...]

if you mean rap the music genre then i would say no...

:2cents:
________
LIVE SEX (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

[Jody]

I voted yes, but only if you are a street thug. Outside of that...it's just something else that adds 'trash' to our society. Anyone can do rap, it's not based on talent. It's based on 'lazy' singing/talent and little positivity.

[SR]

I can think of at least three people who will pop their heads in this thread and argue in favor of rap, then this thread will go to crap.


I vote no. Yes, I'm sure there are facts within their lyrics, but to call it a good source of factual information is laughable.

[eessydo]

I voted yes, but only if you are a street thug. Outside of that...it's just something else that adds 'trash' to our society. Anyone can do rap, it's not based on talent. It's based on 'lazy' singing/talent and little positivity.

I will requalify, for university or high school level research papers not on topics related to "thug" life, Specific rappers lives, or the music industry in general.

[eessydo]

I can think of at least three people who will pop their heads in this thread and argue in favor of rap, then this thread will go to crap.


I vote no. Yes, I'm sure there are facts within their lyrics, but to call it a good source of factual information is laughable.

We know who they are, and they will argue until they are blue in the face. Two guys supporting Ohio teams come to mind.

[Jody]

I will requalify, for university or high school level research papers not on topics related to "thug" life, Specific rappers lives, or the music industry in general.

can you elaborate please?

[SR]

We know who they are, and they will argue until they are blue in the face. Two guys supporting Ohio teams come to mind.

Bingo. :tsk:

[eessydo]

can you elaborate please?

Let's say you are writing a paper on religion, would you quote a rapper as a viable source in your bibliography stating it was fact?

[eessydo]

. ;)

I don't know about all of this HW. I respectfully request that you remove your opinion from this thread, although you are thoroughly entitled to it. I would like to keep this one on topic and objective.

I personally don't think all rap is bad and dark, but I definitely wouldn't TRUST them as a source or utilize it as a primary source of information.

Thank you for your support of objectivity in this thread in advance. I am just trying to avoid finger pointing in this one.

[eessydo]

I voted yes, but only if you are a street thug.

I do agree with this though, it would be a good source of information for a "street thug", but let's talk about you and I and the rest of Human society. Would it be a good source of FACTUAL information, and would you believe it as fact without first cross referencing the information?

[Jody]

I do agree with this though, it would be a good source of information for a "street thug", but let's talk about you and I and the rest of Human society. Would it be a good source of FACTUAL information, and would you believe it as fact without first cross referencing the information?


Well, street smarts is something I am acquainted with, due to my own childhood. Rap is truly about expressing a part of society's anger and/or sexuality. I could not say in any way that it offers 'factual' information as a resource, but it does offer 'situational' facts of part of society's lifestyle. Perhaps, it just cements the negative feelings that so much of society feels 'already' about 'the street' (i.e., thugs). Perhaps, it just cements part of society's feelings about those who chose to remain in the 'darker side of life', and enhance that furthermore with reconfirming that 'entire idea' through their rap music, versus encouraging music for those on the streets, to make change? It's music that is a burden on society, versus a positive expression. Who really wants to 'relate' to rap? Those who already live on the 'dark side' or those who know no better (youth).

[Poet]

I voted yes, but only if you are a street thug. Outside of that...it's just something else that adds 'trash' to our society. Anyone can do rap, it's not based on talent. It's based on 'lazy' singing/talent and little positivity.

You obviously dont listen to much rap at all. Most of the rap that you see on television does not reflect the majority of the music. Sure, anyone can rap, but few can do it well. Many people can sing, in fact everyone that can speak can sing, but few do it well.

[Poet]

He was using the lyrics to make a point eesydo. I am not saying I agree or disagree with his statment but this is the political forum and has nothing to do with politics at all. Matter of fact this is pretty close to a personal attack. :tsk:

[Poet]

Let's say you are writing a paper on religion, would you quote a rapper as a viable source in your bibliography stating it was fact?

How about you not skew your question with a biased question? If the rapper said something and then he can prove that the rapper is right then that rapper is a fine source. He could even go so far as to quote the rapper in his paper. We don't we try to be fair here?

[Poet]

Well, street smarts is something I am acquainted with, due to my own childhood. Rap is truly about expressing a part of society's anger and/or sexuality. I could not say in any way that it offers 'factual' information as a resource, but it does offer 'situational' facts of part of society's lifestyle. Perhaps, it just cements the negative feelings that so much of society feels 'already' about 'the street' (i.e., thugs). Perhaps, it just cements part of society's feelings about those who chose to remain in the 'darker side of life', and enhance that furthermore with reconfirming that 'entire idea' through their rap music, versus encouraging music for those on the streets, to make change? It's music that is a burden on society, versus a positive expression. Who really wants to 'relate' to rap? Those who already live on the 'dark side' or those who know no better (youth).

I respectfully disagree. There is a lot in rap that someone like I (a white kid from a nice family) can relate too. You will find a lot of common family issues and relationship issues in rap music. You will find a lot of rappers talking about trying to overcome adversity which we can all relate too. I cannot relate with them when it comes to being around drug dealers and a lot of other things, but I do not think your post is very fair.

[Poet]

I do agree with this though, it would be a good source of information for a "street thug", but let's talk about you and I and the rest of Human society. Would it be a good source of FACTUAL information, and would you believe it as fact without first cross referencing the information?

That would depend on the rapper and what the subject was about now wouldn't it?

[SR]

I respectfully disagree. There is a lot in rap that someone like I (a white kid from a nice family) can relate too.

Where? Radio Disney?

[Poet]

Where? Radio Disney?

SR, I try to be as respectful as I can. I would appreciate if you didn't take pot shots at me without at least an attempt at a civil debate.

[SR]

SR, I try to be as respectful as I can. I would appreciate if you didn't take pot shots at me without at least an attempt at a civil debate.

I'm just messing around.

I've beaten this topic to a dead horse on BM and a little over here. I have nothing else to add. I can't stand rap, think it's a bad influence on today's youth, and encourages people to act like idiots and treat their women like crap.

If it is a good source of factual info, and these are the people you want to get your "facts" from, then that's on your own conscience, not mine.

[Poet]

I'm just messing around.

I've beaten this topic to a dead horse on BM and a little over here. I have nothing else to add. I can't stand rap, think it's a bad influence on today's youth, and encourages people to act like idiots and treat their women like crap.

If it is a good source of factual info, and these are the people you want to get your "facts" from, then that's on your own conscience, not mine.

I have a hard time telling sometimes. Once again I overreact, my bad.

Well you have read my stance on the issue where I replied to HW so I am willing to venture that neither of us are going to change each others minds.

And a rapper could very well be a good source for information in several instances. My problem with this thread is that it is neither on topic for Politics or Religion and it was skewed from the get go. Also the person that Essydo is railing on happens to be a good friend of mine.

[SR]

Also the person that Essydo is railing on happens to be a good friend of mine.

I'm guessing Escobar?

[Poet]

I'm guessing Escobar?

Give you a hint, he has a lot of letter A's in his name.

Oh yeah, and he is a Bengals fan.

[eessydo]

That would depend on the rapper and what the subject was about now wouldn't it?

No it does not depend on the rapper OR the subject. I have a lot of PhD's tossing information at me, yet I still cross reference it and evaluate as much data as possible.

Do you believe everything you hear or read? <-- this is an honest question

I think I have a comparable lesson that rap lovers can relate to:

I was watching the cartoon Boondocks last year, and thought it was funny that the storyline of one show was a rapper that everyone idolized because of his "street cred". He was actually from a middle class home and had just marketed himself as a "gangsta".

I think the lesson in this cartoon was don't always believe what you hear or read, take the time to peel back the layers and you will find different truths or not-truths. A larger % of these guys are entertainers, NOT scholars. There primary purpose is to entertain.

Also, you can't always believe the scholars, dig deep and you may find hidden agendas or counter-opinions on specific research.

This is not really a loaded question here. it is a simple question. and right now it is 60/40 with the NO's winning.

BTW, one of the "YES's" had a caveat and I clarified some of the ambiguity in the question so we could avoid caveats.

[Poet]

No it does not depend on the rapper OR the subject. I have a lot of PhD's tossing information at me, yet I still cross reference it and evaluate as much data as possible.

Do you believe everything you hear or read? <-- this is an honest question

I think I have a comparable lesson that rap lovers can relate to:

I was watching the cartoon Boondocks last year, and thought it was funny that the storyline of one show was a rapper that everyone idolized because of his "street cred". He was actually from a middle class home and had just marketed himself as a "gangsta".

I think the lesson in this cartoon was don't always believe what you hear or read, take the time to peel back the layers and you will find different truths or not-truths. A larger % of these guys are entertainers, NOT scholars. There primary purpose is to entertain.

Also, you can't always believe the scholars, dig deep and you may find hidden agendas or counter-opinions on specific research.

This is not really a loaded question here. it is a simple question. and right now it is 60/40 with the NO's winning.

BTW, one of the "YES's" had a caveat and I clarified some of the ambiguity in the question so we could avoid caveats.

No I do not believe everything that I hear and see. And you loaded the question and attacked Bengaaals and I can show you where you skewed the crap in this thread if you want. And I hate to break this to you, but this little pole proves nothing. Bengaaaaaaaaaaaaaaals1688 would tell you that he doesnt always believe what rappers say, he was using the quote to prove a point. TO PROVE A POINT (I think you may need the caps). I am well aware of what makes a good source and what does not, it comes with being a journalism major. And yes, the credibility of the person does matter a lot. If the rapper was someone who was established as an intelligent person who graduated from college and was knowledgeable on the subject that would mean a lot more then if Soulja Boy said it. And the subject matters quite a bit too. If you where talking about let us say biology then a rapper may or not be the best guy to go to huh? However, he still could be if he was knowledgeable in that field. Said rapper could very well be knowledgeable on the subject matter, you and I do not know.

What bothers me is that this thread is nothing more then a petty personal attack.

[eessydo]

No I do not believe everything that I hear and see. And you loaded the question and attacked Bengaaals and I can show you where you skewed the crap in this thread if you want. And I hate to break this to you, but this little pole proves nothing. Bengaaaaaaaaaaaaaaals1688 would tell you that he doesnt always believe what rappers say, he was using the quote to prove a point. TO PROVE A POINT (I think you may need the caps). I am well aware of what makes a good source and what does not, it comes with being a journalism major. And yes, the credibility of the person does matter a lot. If the rapper was someone who was established as an intelligent person who graduated from college and was knowledgeable on the subject that would mean a lot more then if Soulja Boy said it. And the subject matters quite a bit too. If you where talking about let us say biology then a rapper may or not be the best guy to go to huh? However, he still could be if he was knowledgeable in that field. Said rapper could very well be knowledgeable on the subject matter, you and I do not know.

What bothers me is that this thread is nothing more then a petty personal attack.

I know this pole proves nothing, it is an OPINION pole. You as a journalism major should understand that. Come on now, think!!

BTW, how do you know they are a credible source? the answer: you research it! You are helping me out here more than you are hurting me. Thank you for your assistance.

Also, you'll probably notice a significant change in voting now that the poll has been placed in the "music" forum, and no longer sits in the "politics" forum. This question will have skewed results as long as:

1: it is framed in a certain way AND
2: it is posed to different people

You can take that to the bank!

We can do a little experiment and place the poll in both forums and watch the results and the different thread discussion that is related to it. I guarantee it will be significantly different due to the different SAMPLES being taken.

This is why all that data is gathered and submitted in surveys, but you should know all of this by now.

[Davii]

I would have to say no. We've all heard Eminems rants, can you take them as fact? No.

Now, if you're writing a paper about how rap degrades women, glamourizes violence, promotes drugs, and is overall contributing to the downward spiral of ethics in our society, the certainly. Use away.

Also very useful to write papers about how to make money with "music" with no musical talent whatsoever.

[NameUsedBefore]

I wouldn't use the actual song alone as a source. But let's say the rapper actually has a solid education, then I would have no problem citing what he says because it's obviously backed by more than a want to rhyme a bunch of words.

[Poet]

I would have to say no. We've all heard Eminems rants, can you take them as fact? No.

Now, if you're writing a paper about how rap degrades women, glamourizes violence, promotes drugs, and is overall contributing to the downward spiral of ethics in our society, the certainly. Use away.

Also very useful to write papers about how to make money with "music" with no musical talent whatsoever.

A lot of music degrades women, promotes drugs and blah blah blah blah. The words over exaggeration is very fitting.


Wrong again.

[eessydo]

I wouldn't use the actual song alone as a source. But let's say the rapper actually has a solid education, then I would have no problem citing what he says because it's obviously backed by more than a want to rhyme a bunch of words.

What is a solid education?

[eessydo]

A lot of music degrades women, promotes drugs and blah blah blah blah. The words over exaggeration is very fitting.


Wrong again.

You are correct a lot of music besides rap degrades women and promotes, but what was stated was not necessarily "wrong again".

Man, I would think you would choose your words more wisely considering you are a journalism major.

Might want to spend more time studying and less time on this site.

[SR]

A lot of music degrades women, promotes drugs and blah blah blah blah. The words over exaggeration is very fitting.


Wrong again.

Is the manner and excessive nature that rap does it in that really chaps my ass. It's like they're promoting it.

[Escobar]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=j7Vl0peys90

^ listen


this ignorance does exist, but can be destroyed..

[SR]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=j7Vl0peys90

^ listen


this ignorance does exist, but can be destroyed..

That link you sent me in a PM a few weeks back was an excellent rap song...can't remember the name of it though.

[Escobar]

Is the manner and excessive nature that rap does it in that really chaps my ass. It's like they're promoting it.

SeeingRed, you know dam well all hip hop does not talk about that, you told me you used to like nas, you know he has deep and meaningful lyrics.

[eessydo]

I wouldn't use the actual song alone as a source. But let's say the rapper actually has a solid education, then I would have no problem citing what he says because it's obviously backed by more than a want to rhyme a bunch of words.

Unfortunately that was not the question, we are just concerned about the lyrics at this point. We can post a secondary question asking about rappers themselves.

[SR]

SeeingRed, you know dam well all hip hop does not talk about that, you told me you used to like nas, you know he has deep and meaningful lyrics.

I don't dislike all rap, I just dislike what it has become. I like a lot of the old Death Row stuff, old Nas (before he decided to become political with songs like "Black Republicans" and his wishing death on O'Reilly), etc. But today's (c)rap has put an awfully bitter taste in my mouth.

[bengaaaaals1688]

Considering this entire thread is because of a post made by me I am going to respond to it in that manner. Now, this came about because of a post I made quoting a line from a rap song about Jesus being quoted in the Qu'ran... what was failed to be understood, however, is that I didn't quote it saying it was a fact, I quoted it in a way of trying to find the validity and an explanation of that line. I don't know it to be a fact, I assume it is but I do not know for sure, and never once said I did know for sure.

Now to actually answer the question... yes it can be a good source for fact gathering. Depending on what you are talking about/debating/explaining, rap can be one of the best sources for gathering facts. Talk about the ghetto, racism, and things of that nature... I will listen to what a rapper says before I listen to what a writer from the middle of the suburbs says.

And to go deeper into this subject and talk about the ridiculous notions I have seen about what rap is... rap is nowhere near just about sex, drugs, degrading women... or anything like that. Just because the crap that is shoved down your throats by the media is about that, it doesn't mean that's what the genre is actually about. Rap is about everything... it is about the ghetto, it is about all the different hardships, it is a nice source of information when it comes to things like that, it is about life in general, relationships, etc. Rap also takes a lot of talent in order to actually be good at it... I have tried it, it isn't easy.

SR... how do you dislike new Nas?? If anything he has only become better lyrically than he used to be, and he still only talks about stuff that matters and isn't stupid.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IZd927xqjoo

Nas- Blunt Ashes

[Davii]

he still only talks about stuff that matters and isn't stupid.

First two NAS songs I clicked on... I see what you're talking about, heavy stuff man. :rolleyes:

This guy really writes about the things that matter. Drugs, women, money, oh, I certainly can't forget about the tub of KY for the women to wrestle in, or when they spread their... well, this is after all a family site....



Nas was the first New York n**** rappin' with Dre
So of course I got a track to bring it back to your face
The one kid that would've been Aftermath that got away
But we still get together like every several years
to sprinkle, a little bit of Heaven for your ears
Relax sippin' Calico in Rio, stupid *******
Low-key, know G's, but it's still Gucci luggage
I love Cape Cod, and watchin' fly ******* with grey eyes
wrestle in a tub of KY to get my day by



It was just cool like, smooth night wit' my jewels bright
Goons left goons right, coupe wit' blue lights
Bad girls in black pearls, gave us cat calls
Took 'em back to the crib to break they *** off
In the loft mixin' hash and 'dro
Honey spreaded that ******* like a wide mouth bass
Sippin' wine out the glass, Teddy Pendergrass blast
When the phone ring, the house lights flash
Turned down the sound, let's get down to bidness
**** about to go down wit' some foul *****
What the voice said, "what up pop? Who want it?"
I put the guap up, get the boy popped
He say "son stop, it's dudes you feedin'
Who feedin' other dudes, but they really not eatin'"
Dog, why you callin' me? This our food
You, handle the mouths that it trickles down to
****** want beef, I want some of that cow too
But I'm in my princely robe, simply rich
Don't bother me wit' silly ****, call Rico

[bengaaaaals1688]

First two NAS songs I clicked on... I see what you're talking about, heavy stuff man. :rolleyes:

This guy really writes about the things that matter. Drugs, women, money, oh, I certainly can't forget about the tub of KY for the women to wrestle in, or when they spread their... well, this is after all a family site....

Oh sorry... so he has songs that aren't all informative, sue him. Nas is a well-respected lyricist and sends a good message with most of his songs. If you actually listen to all of the second song you were talking about, you will realize that it isn't just the lyrics being used that must be understood, if you actually pay attention to how they are used and the rest of the song... there is a deeper meaning than the lyrics themselves say. The whole point of the song is that he can't be killed, and that he has had to deal with people trying to all his life.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_fFfFSX-D9w

Nas- Blood Diamonds

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DtftuSHnWVY

Nas- One Mic

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2UzYKl-L2Eo

Nas- Carry on Tradition

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PhNpgNrQA-I

Nas- Not Going Back

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kxxvc4Tk_ug

Nas- We Will Survive

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2d-l2nw-nGk

Nas- Poison

Go ahead and tell me that 2 songs make all those songs BS. Nas is hip hop, and Nas makes extremely good songs with great messages. Just because you don't like the way he words himself in a couple of them doesn't make him like the rest of the crappy rappers.:rolleyes:

[NameUsedBefore]

Unfortunately that was not the question, we are just concerned about the lyrics at this point. We can post a secondary question asking about rappers themselves.

You said rap. That involves the rappers. If they have an education there's no reason to say they have nothing intelligent to add simply because of the method they use to project it.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Listening to rap and hip-hop is a great way to gather an introspective view on living a hard life, and learning about differences that exist in society. I don't know if it's a great way about gathering the facts. Most of it is talking about personal experiences and believes. It goes all the way back to the roots of the music itself, which dates back all the way to the trading of slaves.

I respect the hip-hop community a great deal. I think they're extremely talented writers, and I think as artists - they show a lot of creativity. Then again, you'll always have the people who think they're "no talent losers, and do things that anybody else could do." If anybody else can do it, then put your money where your mouth is and do it.

Most here aren't educated in the area of music, and don't understand the social and cultural context behind rap music itself. Not surprising in the least bit.

[eessydo]

You said rap. That involves the rappers. If they have an education there's no reason to say they have nothing intelligent to add simply because of the method they use to project it.

The actual question attached to the poll is Rap Lyrics, the forum lead question was shortened so as not to be obnoxious.

Sorry for the confusion.

[eessydo]

Listening to rap and hip-hop is a great way to gather an introspective view on living a hard life, and learning about differences that exist in society. I don't know if it's a great way about gathering the facts. Most of it is talking about personal experiences and believes.

I was going to put this in this forum earlier today but decided to refrain. I agree that most rap is personal experience and beliefs. Maybe not the best source of factual information unless you are looking to research one of these individuals.

This was an extremely good post, I am glad I did not write it as my previous discussions may have overshadowed its validity. It shows some serious thought, and answers the question clearly.

Good job Dream.

[eessydo]

there is a deeper meaning than the lyrics themselves say.

Then why write the lyrics?

Seems like you live by this, because you will write something down and when it is questioned you say that it was taken out of context.

Are we all supposed to be mind readers out here?

All I have to go by is what you write or say, and NAS definitely has a message in those lyrics above......

I am not saying I like them or dislike them, but it is very clear to me what he is saying.

[Simple Jaded]

Of course it is!

It's my main source on way's to keep my B1tch's as Ho's and Tricks, and how to keep my Pimp Hand strong.....

[Devilspawn]

I don't know how old you guys are or when you started to listen to rap or where you live, but I lived in NY and saw rap develop from simple, non-complex party rhymes to goofy party rhymes to educational black power rhmyes to cop killing rhymes to "ho, but yo ass on da glass real fast" rhymes.

From 1985-1992, rap was clever, creative and yes, informative. N.W.A. informed those outside of Los Angeles what the cops were doing to black youths, even though those in NY saw it to a lesser extent. New York rappers informed you on the drug game and some even gave you instructions on how to sell and not get killed selling. Public Enemy, along with De La Soul, A Tribe called Quest, Jungle Brothers, KRS-One, Rakim and others kept a positive attitude for black youths and told them how to rise agaisnt the odds they faced because of their situation and not use it as an excuse.

Somewhere along the way, rims, bling, women and money became the only topic. Today, it dominates the genre on television. If you see a rap video on TV without those previously mentioned things, chances are it's on public access television.

Is rap a good source of fact gathering. Yes it it. Are they good clean wholesome facts? Most of the time, no. But most of these rappers, despite their nicknames and cartoonish personas, are not lying, for the most part. Some stretch the truth, but most tell the truth. They are merely stating the truth in rhyme.

I haven't bought a rap album in 10 years, and I used to be a huge hip hop fan. Today I find a few I will listen too. The other 95% have no talent and some can't even rhyme right.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I think people have a habit to down rap music because of what sells in stores and gets played on MTV. That's probably five percent of what's actually out there.

[Escobar]

Of course it is!

It's my main source on way's to keep my B1tch's as Ho's and Tricks, and how to keep my Pimp Hand strong.....

im sorry mr oprah, but there is 'b1tches ho's and tricks'' out there....stop acting like there is not.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

One of my favorite sets of lyrics. . . Give it a chance

Few bullets hit the floor while flying through the air
Billie Jean light up concrete, some die there
Military weapons against stones, not fair
Gun shots in the streets, whole block scared
Niggaz tell you they love you right before they shoot you
Hug your momma, cry at your funeral
It's terrible, sinful, life here is pitiful
God has a dark sense of humor, divine comedy
Jokes on you, punch line is tragedy
It's not what he say, it's how he deliver it
Louis Armstrong gas me, said it was wonderful
Bush lit the match, show souls are flammable
Push me, don't, I'm close to the edge
War, I keep falling but I'm laying on floor
So deep, drowning but I'm not in water
In Hell, inferno, inhale, breathe fire
In Heaven, internally, exhale, leaven Lucifer
Fail my objective, can never be president
Although I have all the criminal qualifications
So now I guess I'm just like Colin Powell
Lack of real power and blood on the conscience
Some Caucasians see black as being contagious
Their children love us and now act the strangest
Wish they could go back to days when they hang us
Man them days they hung us is still among us
We got fake revolutionaries trying to mislead us
Won't bust they guns, in the head they just beat us
Fight they own kind instead of ones who mistreat us
Mechanicals for revolution Che Guevara never got 'em
He couldn't be bought by the demons who shot him
So don't give me that power to the people ****
Unless you about the ****, too many niggaz died for it
Old timers known how to spot who's legit
Real bankers are pros and know who's counterfeit
Do or live free lunch, that's who I roll with
We out here exposing hoes and foes the way we should
Living good, not giving back to the hood
**** changed, the Klan's black wearing hoods
Prove me wrong, I wish brothers would
In this song, cause I rather be wrong

Situation is life or death

I learned the worse devil in the world's a black one
They'll speak your language, talking slang son
If detected, here's come another one
Where these niggaz coming from?
Bred with self hatred
Eating master's scraps, feeling that they made it
Black churches and buses fire bombed and raided
Program American Hunger, so they ate it
Cook grams iron chef, ghetto gourmet
Slow jams, while get high forget problems
No man's an island, but each one's a monster
**** ain't never gonna change, we can't solve them
How can a nation build when they don't love each other?
No promise land, only misery prolong
But in this song I rather be wrong

Armstrong Williams endorsed Bush to kill millions
Your skin is black, but for you I have no feelings
Your fouls are flagrant, you secret agent
I speak for a tribe still alive but lost
Your ancestors will haunt you 'til you see the light
Condoleezza Rice, how you sleep at night?
I guess the devil tucked you in real tight
Take a look in a mirror ***** you are not white
What do they have on you?
Something ain't right
The vow taken by the president at the inauguration
Never let this become a nigga nation
But they're like roaches, plan B space station
Just incase they get the heart, choose to fight
And want a war, can't take it no more
Make these niggaz literally reach for the stars
Throwing rocks will never reach Mars, can't touch this
Kill 'em off, see who survives the sequel
It's un-American, niggaz will never be equal
**** them jiggaboos, they not even people
It's not a myth; they're only three-fifths
Ay that nigga lover, what was on his mind?
Probably had nigga in him, knew he was they kind
Now a nigga for life, that's why pennies don't shine
Show nonbelievers matter's controlled by the brain
Grimm's David Blaine, for the world display pain
All those multiple contusions and bruising illusions
Magna Carta, OG Constitution
Twelve fifteen, master plan for prostitution
The king is a pimp wearing jewels to executions
Father against son, that was the revolution
We didn't matter, so please don't be flattered
Africa was shattered, our blood was splattered
I've died before so I don't fear
Took two thousand years for a nigga to reappear
Gotta kill me cause I'm powerful, I know the deal
Memorize lines, go along with the script
Will my execution make my people flip?
Will disciples be trife and slip?
Please come together all Bloods and Crips, make purple
Save your people, they counting on you to kill yourselves
It's time for us to make a change, I rather be wrong
We now hanging ourselves
There's no excuse no more, gotta come together
Gotta get **** right, **** is too ****** up
It's been ****** up for a long time man
It's beyond color though, just need to get our heads together
People don't realize what this world is for
**** ain't for us to ******* fight each other
Mother******s think man, think
Life is too short for this ****
Running around in circles man, like rats in a maze

[bengaaaaals1688]

Then why write the lyrics?

Seems like you live by this, because you will write something down and when it is questioned you say that it was taken out of context.

Are we all supposed to be mind readers out here?

All I have to go by is what you write or say, and NAS definitely has a message in those lyrics above......

I am not saying I like them or dislike them, but it is very clear to me what he is saying.

Live by it?? No, but sometimes in songs it doesn't work to just say what you want, you have to imply it. Now the problem is, rather than listen to how something is said and the delivery of the words, people listen to just what is saying. In all verbal communication, there are non-verbal cues to show what the meaning behind the words may be. These cues come from either the person themselves, or things they have brought to use to explain something better. You have to look at body language(if you can see them), listen to the tone in their voice, listen to the emphasis given to certain words or phrases... there are a lot of things that go into effective communication on both the sending and receiving end, but too many people ignore the non-verbal cues that rappers send when they are rapping and just pay attention to the verbal.

By the way, which lyrics exactly are you talking about??

[SR]

I don't know how old you guys are or when you started to listen to rap or where you live, but I lived in NY and saw rap develop from simple, non-complex party rhymes to goofy party rhymes to educational black power rhmyes to cop killing rhymes to "ho, but yo ass on da glass real fast" rhymes.

From 1985-1992, rap was clever, creative and yes, informative. N.W.A. informed those outside of Los Angeles what the cops were doing to black youths, even though those in NY saw it to a lesser extent. New York rappers informed you on the drug game and some even gave you instructions on how to sell and not get killed selling. Public Enemy, along with De La Soul, A Tribe called Quest, Jungle Brothers, KRS-One, Rakim and others kept a positive attitude for black youths and told them how to rise agaisnt the odds they faced because of their situation and not use it as an excuse.

Somewhere along the way, rims, bling, women and money became the only topic. Today, it dominates the genre on television. If you see a rap video on TV without those previously mentioned things, chances are it's on public access television.

Is rap a good source of fact gathering. Yes it it. Are they good clean wholesome facts? Most of the time, no. But most of these rappers, despite their nicknames and cartoonish personas, are not lying, for the most part. Some stretch the truth, but most tell the truth. They are merely stating the truth in rhyme.

I haven't bought a rap album in 10 years, and I used to be a huge hip hop fan. Today I find a few I will listen too. The other 95% have no talent and some can't even rhyme right.

I wasn't listening to rap back then, but I listened to rap from back then, and I liked it.

You and I have always seemed to see eye-to-eye on this ONE topic. ;)

[sneakers]

:confused:

I am confused too....what is this thread all about?

I have Tom Green's Rap album...Prepare for Impact (http://www.amazon.com/Prepare-Impact-Tom-Green/dp/B000AO4NK4)

[eessydo]

One of my favorite sets of lyrics. . . Give it a chance

Few bullets hit the floor while flying through the air
Billie Jean light up concrete, some die there
Military weapons against stones, not fair
Gun shots in the streets, whole block scared
Niggaz tell you they love you right before they shoot you
Hug your momma, cry at your funeral
It's terrible, sinful, life here is pitiful
God has a dark sense of humor, divine comedy
Jokes on you, punch line is tragedy
It's not what he say, it's how he deliver it
Louis Armstrong gas me, said it was wonderful
Bush lit the match, show souls are flammable
Push me, don't, I'm close to the edge
War, I keep falling but I'm laying on floor
So deep, drowning but I'm not in water
In Hell, inferno, inhale, breathe fire
In Heaven, internally, exhale, leaven Lucifer
Fail my objective, can never be president
Although I have all the criminal qualifications
So now I guess I'm just like Colin Powell
Lack of real power and blood on the conscience
Some Caucasians see black as being contagious
Their children love us and now act the strangest
Wish they could go back to days when they hang us
Man them days they hung us is still among us
We got fake revolutionaries trying to mislead us
Won't bust they guns, in the head they just beat us
Fight they own kind instead of ones who mistreat us
Mechanicals for revolution Che Guevara never got 'em
He couldn't be bought by the demons who shot him
So don't give me that power to the people ****
Unless you about the ****, too many niggaz died for it
Old timers known how to spot who's legit
Real bankers are pros and know who's counterfeit
Do or live free lunch, that's who I roll with
We out here exposing hoes and foes the way we should
Living good, not giving back to the hood
**** changed, the Klan's black wearing hoods
Prove me wrong, I wish brothers would
In this song, cause I rather be wrong

Situation is life or death

I learned the worse devil in the world's a black one
They'll speak your language, talking slang son
If detected, here's come another one
Where these niggaz coming from?
Bred with self hatred
Eating master's scraps, feeling that they made it
Black churches and buses fire bombed and raided
Program American Hunger, so they ate it
Cook grams iron chef, ghetto gourmet
Slow jams, while get high forget problems
No man's an island, but each one's a monster
**** ain't never gonna change, we can't solve them
How can a nation build when they don't love each other?
No promise land, only misery prolong
But in this song I rather be wrong

Armstrong Williams endorsed Bush to kill millions
Your skin is black, but for you I have no feelings
Your fouls are flagrant, you secret agent
I speak for a tribe still alive but lost
Your ancestors will haunt you 'til you see the light
Condoleezza Rice, how you sleep at night?
I guess the devil tucked you in real tight
Take a look in a mirror ***** you are not white
What do they have on you?
Something ain't right
The vow taken by the president at the inauguration
Never let this become a nigga nation
But they're like roaches, plan B space station
Just incase they get the heart, choose to fight
And want a war, can't take it no more
Make these niggaz literally reach for the stars
Throwing rocks will never reach Mars, can't touch this
Kill 'em off, see who survives the sequel
It's un-American, niggaz will never be equal
**** them jiggaboos, they not even people
It's not a myth; they're only three-fifths
Ay that nigga lover, what was on his mind?
Probably had nigga in him, knew he was they kind
Now a nigga for life, that's why pennies don't shine
Show nonbelievers matter's controlled by the brain
Grimm's David Blaine, for the world display pain
All those multiple contusions and bruising illusions
Magna Carta, OG Constitution
Twelve fifteen, master plan for prostitution
The king is a pimp wearing jewels to executions
Father against son, that was the revolution
We didn't matter, so please don't be flattered
Africa was shattered, our blood was splattered
I've died before so I don't fear
Took two thousand years for a nigga to reappear
Gotta kill me cause I'm powerful, I know the deal
Memorize lines, go along with the script
Will my execution make my people flip?
Will disciples be trife and slip?
Please come together all Bloods and Crips, make purple
Save your people, they counting on you to kill yourselves
It's time for us to make a change, I rather be wrong
We now hanging ourselves
There's no excuse no more, gotta come together
Gotta get **** right, **** is too ****** up
It's been ****** up for a long time man
It's beyond color though, just need to get our heads together
People don't realize what this world is for
**** ain't for us to ******* fight each other
Mother******s think man, think
Life is too short for this ****
Running around in circles man, like rats in a maze

I see 3 facts in these lyrics:

1. Armstong Williams endorsed something which, based on my knowledge is either
a: the War in Iraq (which i think is most likely) OR
b: the "no child left behind" act
2. Red and Blue make purple.
3. Throwing rocks will never reach Mars

Now some may consider the following fact but to me it really harbors more opinion, I will concede that it is debatable as there is more than likely some fact IN the opinion.

"Some Caucasians see black as being contagious
Their children love us and now act the strangest
Wish they could go back to days when they hang us"

The Following is NOT fact and makes an even worse error with a significant amount ommitted data based on the "CONTEXT" of the song:

"It's not a myth; they're only three-fifths"

The US census bureau has the caucasian population at 80% and african american population @ 12.8% in July 1 2005. The other minorities make up the remaining "minority population". IF the context of this lyric is black vs. white, it is wrong based on this data.

Just to make sure I was not understanding the lyric incorrectly I check the US congress to see if 3/5ths is african american thinking that 3/5ths was a possible reference to the "3/5ths compromise" (The Three-Fifths Compromise held that three of every five slaves would count as “population” for the purposes of apportioning seats in the House of Representatives.) I could only find 43 out of 535 total congressmen and women that are african american.

So I dug a little further just in case he was trying to say minorities vs caucasians and NOT african american vs. caucasians and came up with this.

43 african american
26 hispanic/latin
6 asian pac islander
1 american indian

for a grand total of 76. Making that 14% of the total congress. We could include women in that but we still wouldn't come close to that 3/5ths number that he is so confident is FACT.

The only "state" that I could find where the african american population is over 2/3rds of the population was the District of Columbia.

Hispanics and Asians are the fastest growing minorities and by 2050 it is estimated that they mat outnumber african americans. I think what this rapper may be referring to was something that I believe I heard on the news but can't verify, so it is not fact. I do believe that there was a Census Bureau projection that had overall minority growth outpacing caucasian growth by triple the output, putting the eventual ration of minorities to caucasians at 2/5ths to 3/5ths. Again this is not verified and therefore not FACT, but I remember hearing something to this effect.

So the message here, in the immortal words of Flavo Flave, "don't believe the hype!" Best to do your own research.
_________________________________________________

Off topic In my OPINION, I don't see these lyrics as a positive step forward in race or political party relations. While they may address some valid points they are very polarizing in nature. Conversations tend to become arguments very quickly when words are structured to be aggressive, which I believe this is. Look at all the threads in this forum as examples, it creates a very defensive posture on both sides which does not create quality dialogue.

Let me be very clear here, while this person may have a message, my PERCEIVED AGENDA of this rapper is

1. a polarization of white & black races, "us against them". AND
2. a declaration that you can't trust other african americans. (I could make an argument that Conservative African Americans may be the target based on the lyrics pointing out 3 prominent African American figures with republican party affiliation; Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice, and armstrong williams, as my substantive evidence)

SO based on this perception 1 that is being created in these lyrics, why do SOME (not all) african americans wonder why, and I am going to take a line from the song:

"Some Caucasians see black as being contagious
Their children love us and now act the strangest"

First they say it is wrong to do so, but then they say they don't trust other black people. I am definitely no and authority here, but it APPEARS to me that this not exactly the best way to change people's perceptions.

And as for #2 . A lot of people would call this the "uncle tom" syndrome, in which I would use these lyrics as FACT that it does exist.

Again, JUST AN OPINION, that is off topic.

[eessydo]

Oh,

Found one more FACT, sorry:

The Magna Carta was signed in 1215. Not exactly an easy one to find.

I just want to be fair here.

[Simple Jaded]

im sorry mr oprah, but there is 'b1tches ho's and tricks'' out there....stop acting like there is not.


It's a joke, Escobar....Stop acting like you have no sense of humor....

[Poet]

I am confused too....what is this thread all about?

I have Tom Green's Rap album...Prepare for Impact (http://www.amazon.com/Prepare-Impact-Tom-Green/dp/B000AO4NK4)

I weep for your ears.;)

[eessydo]

I weep for your ears.;)

No need, they are weeping themselves. Bleeding uncontrollably

[aberdien]

If you find the right kind of rap, it can be a good source for facts I suppose. I can name 2 or 3 rap/hip hop artists that don't/didn't rap about sex, money, guns, etc. You just have to search for the right artists and stray away from what MTV is showing you.

[NameUsedBefore]

"It's not a myth; they're only three-fifths" is referring to how blacks used to only count for three-fifths of a person when taking a census.

[saddletramp]

I voted yes, but only if you are a street thug. Outside of that...it's just something else that adds 'trash' to our society. Anyone can do rap, it's not based on talent. It's based on 'lazy' singing/talent and little positivity.

I have to spread it before giving more.



http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l71/Saddletramp69/SMILEYS/roflmao.gif

[schnooks1]

I wish I could say yes about the rap music, as I love the beat! But when I pull up next to a car at a stop light that has rap blasting, I have to turn my music up as loud to protect my 8 year old from hearing the words she should never have to hear!

[aberdien]

Here's some positive lyrics:

De La Soul - I love the positive message they give, especially in their first record.

[Dove]
Mirror mirror on the wall
Tell me mirror what is wrong?
Can it be my De La Clothes
Or is it just my De La Soul
What I do ain't make believe
People say I sit and try
But when it comes to being De La
It's just me myself and I

It's just me myself and I (repeat 3x)

[Posdonus]
Now you tease my Plug One style
And my Plug One spectacles
You say Plug One and Two are hippies
No we're not, thats pure Plug Bull
Always pushin that we formed an image
There's no need to lie
When it comes to being Plug One
It's just me myself and I

It's just me myself and I (repeat 3X)

[Dove]
Proud, I'm proud of what I am
Poems I speak are Plug Two type
Please oh please let Plug Two be
himself, not what you read or write
Write is wrong when hype is written
on the Soul, De La that is
Style is surely our own thing
Not the false disguise of show-biz
De La Soul is from the soul
And in fact I can't deny
Strictly from the Dan called Stuckie
And from me myself and I

The message: Be yourself. See any curse words?

Phat Phat, uh
Ain't nothing wrong with big broads
Phat Phat

It's a sure bet
When I stare into your dark browns I get
Overwhelmed, overjoyed, overstep
My bounds, on your touchy subject
Your weight, your shape's not what I date
It's you, my crew don't mind it thick (Uh-uh)
Every woman ain't a video chick (Nah)
Or runway model anorexic
I love what I can hold and grab on
So if you burn it off then keep the flab on

Don't stuck on the things they say, now you know it's a nasty world
Tryin to get with ya anyway cause I know you're a nasty girl
We ain't never gon' discriminate so let me compliment your size

Yeah it's nothin but a litte baby, phat phat
It's nothing but a little baby, phat phat
It's nothing but a little baby, phat phat

Claim you outta shape, you not outta place (Uh-uh)
You keep it natural with no powdered face
Without exercise you got the eye
Starin you down, make me wonder why
You women wanna frown at them stick figures
On them little ass girls, when a clique of girls
Run up and try to hurl game for real
Your frame holds appeal in the everyday
World, and conceal is not the way
To go, I'm tellin you I had to let
Ya know, ya need to let it all hang

Don't be scared to show a little of that thang thang
No matter how you weigh it girl, it's feminine
Kinda body everybody wanna know (Yea yea)
Be the private dancer in my Luke show (C'mon girl)
Skip the salad girl, bring us both a menu
Eat the whole box of chocolates I send you (Heh)
See girl, ya more than just an apple in my
Eye/I, confess I wanna get up in ya
saw who make ya cookies I should go and thank ya granny (Uh-huh)
Don't mind you being conscious of ya calories
If gettin paper was fat man you'd be salaries
You ain't in this alone I got a tummy too
Just lemme watch the weight don't let it trouble you (C'mere girl)
Nine ten specimen up in ya jeans
You buy the size seven and just make it fit
Slim Fast, lypo, and body creams
I pray you won't endorse, I got a candle lit


If you took the time to read that, it's talking about women who have curves and how they should realize how beautiful they are and not think they have to be skinny supermodels to be beautiful.

And here's a couple parts of a song from a different artist:

Thou shalt not use poetry, art or music to get into girls pants...
...use it to get into their heads.

Thou shalt not Pimp My Ride.


Thou shalt not go into the woods with your boyfriends best friend, take drugs, and then cheat on him

Thou shalt not judge a book by its cover.

Thou shalt remember that guns, bitches and bling were never part of the 4 elements and never will be.

Thou shalt think for yourselves.


So not all rap is terrible.

[Poet]

I voted yes, but only if you are a street thug. Outside of that...it's just something else that adds 'trash' to our society. Anyone can do rap, it's not based on talent. It's based on 'lazy' singing/talent and little positivity.

Jody that is not very true and it is a blanket statement. Please do not be offended when I ask you this, but why do I somehow doubt that you have listened to a lot of rap, and how do I somehow doubt that the rappers that you listened to are people along the lines of Soulja Boy and guys like him.

Anyone can sing, just not well. Not everyone can rap well, and believe me I know that to be true. I used to laugh my arse off when people would tell me that and then fail to rap well.

As far as the little positivity watch me do you one better. Most music nowadays has little positivity. In fact, I bet you would amount you want that rap has more positivity then must genres of music. Tupac, Nas, Notorious B.I.G. Luda, Jay Z etc etc etc all have positive music Jody. Most rappers rap about their lives growing up and what they see around them, of course not a lot of that is positive. But they STILL have more hope and positivity then most genres of music.

I can understand that if you turn on the radio or BET, MTV(if anyone actually...watches that?) you may be skeptical, but represents rap as well as the KKK represents white people.

[Jody]

Jody that is not very true and it is a blanket statement. Please do not be offended when I ask you this, but why do I somehow doubt that you have listened to a lot of rap, and how do I somehow doubt that the rappers that you listened to are people along the lines of Soulja Boy and guys like him.

Anyone can sing, just not well. Not everyone can rap well, and believe me I know that to be true. I used to laugh my arse off when people would tell me that and then fail to rap well.

As far as the little positivity watch me do you one better. Most music nowadays has little positivity. In fact, I bet you would amount you want that rap has more positivity then must genres of music. Tupac, Nas, Notorious B.I.G. Luda, Jay Z etc etc etc all have positive music Jody. Most rappers rap about their lives growing up and what they see around them, of course not a lot of that is positive. But they STILL have more hope and positivity then most genres of music.

I can understand that if you turn on the radio or BET, MTV(if anyone actually...watches that?) you may be skeptical, but represents rap as well as the KKK represents white people.

King....can we be honest buddy? You're what...20 (barely) and I'm 45. It's a given I have listened to thousands of songs, in all types of music, far more than yourself. Would you disagree with that? I have listened to and enjoyed anything from Classical, to opera, to pop, to rock, to country, jazz, blues, and yes, plenty of rap. Did you forget I have a teenage kid, with teenage friends? I do listen to it, so I know what she's listening to. It's bleak, it's negative, and it's on the 'dark side'. It lacks respect for love, life, women, sex, and even the art of music itself. Are there a few exceptions? Sure, but not near enough. It's had a bad reputation in this country for years now, for good reason. It's a trendish bad boy music where it's origins came from the streets (from thugs, gangsters). This is FACT, not my interpretation. Now, do I like some Hip-Hop? Yes. Sometimes, that blends a little rap into it. However, not too much of it either.

You should not be offended that we do not agree on this. I would expect it, as a generational gap. Remember....I was once 20 too, and I remember thinking 'just like you'.....in the sense that you 'assume' no one listens to what you do. I have, I do, and I don't like it. In fact, if there was a large movement against Rap....I'd join. ;)

[saddletramp]

King....can we be honest buddy? You're what...20 (barely) and I'm 45. It's a given I have listened to thousands of songs, in all types of music, far more than yourself. Would you disagree with that? I have listened to and enjoyed anything from Classical, to opera, to pop, to rock, to country, jazz, blues, and yes, plenty of rap. Did you forget I have a teenage kid, with teenage friends? I do listen to it, so I know what she's listening to. It's bleak, it's negative, and it's on the 'dark side'. It lacks respect for love, life, women, sex, and even the art of music itself. Are there a few exceptions? Sure, but not near enough. It's had a bad reputation in this country for years now, for good reason. It's a trendish bad boy music where it's origins came from the streets (from thugs, gangsters). This is FACT, not my interpretation. Now, do I like some Hip-Hop? Yes. Sometimes, that blends a little rap into it. However, not too much of it either.

You should not be offended that we do not agree on this. I would expect it, as a generational gap. Remember....I was once 20 too, and I remember thinking 'just like you'.....in the sense that you 'assume' no one listens to what you do. I have, I do, and I don't like it. In fact, if there was a large movement against Rap....I'd join. ;)

as they say, "build it and they will come." I'd join in a heartbeat.

[Poet]

King....can we be honest buddy? You're what...20 (barely) and I'm 45. It's a given I have listened to thousands of songs, in all types of music, far more than yourself. Would you disagree with that? I have listened to and enjoyed anything from Classical, to opera, to pop, to rock, to country, jazz, blues, and yes, plenty of rap. Did you forget I have a teenage kid, with teenage friends? I do listen to it, so I know what she's listening to. It's bleak, it's negative, and it's on the 'dark side'. It lacks respect for love, life, women, sex, and even the art of music itself. Are there a few exceptions? Sure, but not near enough. It's had a bad reputation in this country for years now, for good reason. It's a trendish bad boy music where it's origins came from the streets (from thugs, gangsters). This is FACT, not my interpretation. Now, do I like some Hip-Hop? Yes. Sometimes, that blends a little rap into it. However, not too much of it either.

You should not be offended that we do not agree on this. I would expect it, as a generational gap. Remember....I was once 20 too, and I remember thinking 'just like you'.....in the sense that you 'assume' no one listens to what you do. I have, I do, and I don't like it. In fact, if there was a large movement against Rap....I'd join. ;)


Rap originated as poetry and politcally motitvated people who lived in the Ghetto Jody.

I don't care about its "reputation", that is irrelevant. Tony La Rusa has a reputation as being a class act around where I live, despite the fact that he just got a DUI. The Bengals have a reputation of being a team full of thugs even though one player accounted for almost a fourth of all arrests and the others where all let go. I have a reputation on this MB of being a "bad guy", which is not true. George W. Bush has a reputation of being an idiot and that is wrong too. Who cares about a reputation of something or someone, reputations are based off of personal biases, and music has been a scape goat for years in this country, it is logical that I don't really care about the
"reputation" of rap.

It is highly probable that your daughter listens only to mainstream rap as far as this goes Jody. As in stuff that you see on MTV, BET, etc etc etc. Most girls her age dont exactly listen to a lot of older rap Jody.

I don't assume anything my friend, in fact I could argue that you made an assumption about my assumptions. ;)

[schnooks1]

Here's some positive lyrics:

De La Soul - I love the positive message they give, especially in their first record.

[Dove]
Mirror mirror on the wall
Tell me mirror what is wrong?
Can it be my De La Clothes
Or is it just my De La Soul
What I do ain't make believe
People say I sit and try
But when it comes to being De La
It's just me myself and I

It's just me myself and I (repeat 3x)

[Posdonus]
Now you tease my Plug One style
And my Plug One spectacles
You say Plug One and Two are hippies
No we're not, thats pure Plug Bull
Always pushin that we formed an image
There's no need to lie
When it comes to being Plug One
It's just me myself and I

It's just me myself and I (repeat 3X)

[Dove]
Proud, I'm proud of what I am
Poems I speak are Plug Two type
Please oh please let Plug Two be
himself, not what you read or write
Write is wrong when hype is written
on the Soul, De La that is
Style is surely our own thing
Not the false disguise of show-biz
De La Soul is from the soul
And in fact I can't deny
Strictly from the Dan called Stuckie
And from me myself and I

The message: Be yourself. See any curse words?


If you took the time to read that, it's talking about women who have curves and how they should realize how beautiful they are and not think they have to be skinny supermodels to be beautiful.[/b]

So not all rap is terrible.

That is so true it is not all terrible......I have never heard that one!

I promise you though, I do not hear that positive rap blasting when we pull up to a stop light. I hear negative, vile words that echo through the streets to my child's ear. She had to ask me what N***** was because of rap that we heard blaring through a parking lot. It made me sick hearing her say the word.

Some Rap can give the idea that it is okay to "sing" words I would not allow my children to speak to me at any age. (I have a 31, 29, and 8 year old) My son listens to music I do not appreciate. He likes to go to concerts and be in the "mosh pits" (I still have no clue what those are) I loved Led Zeplin when I was a teen and my parent's thought "Stairway to Heaven" was the work of the "devil"! (play the words backwards and all!!!) I thought it was a deep meaningful song because of how I interpreted it.

What I am saying is that this thread asks if Rap can be used as a fact gathering tool. The rap you pointed could be considered, but like I said earlier, for those that do not listen to "rap" on the norm, a lot of it is negative;and the story gets lost with the ugly words!

[Poet]

That is so true it is not all terrible......I have never heard that one!

I promise you though, I do not hear that positive rap blasting when we pull up to a stop light. I hear negative, vile words that echo through the streets to my child's ear. She had to ask me what N***** was because of rap that we heard blaring through a parking lot. It made me sick hearing her say the word.

Some Rap can give the idea that it is okay to "sing" words I would not allow my children to speak to me at any age. (I have a 31, 29, and 8 year old) My son listens to music I do not appreciate. He likes to go to concerts and be in the "mosh pits" (I still have no clue what those are) I loved Led Zeplin when I was a teen and my parent's thought "Stairway to Heaven" was the work of the "devil"! (play the words backwards and all!!!) I thought it was a deep meaningful song because of how I interpreted it.

What I am saying is that this thread asks if Rap can be used as a fact gathering tool. The rap you pointed could be considered, but like I said earlier, for those that do not listen to "rap" on the norm, a lot of it is negative;and the story gets lost with the ugly words!

The point of this thread was a cheap shot at rap and rappers. If you where in the thread that prompted this one and read the beginning of it it is blatantly obvious.;)

The story is not lost with those ugly words, what matters is the message, not how it is delivered. Those ugly words signify a lot about the conditions where like when these people grew up. That is just lazy and uncommitted listening in my opinion.

[schnooks1]

The point of this thread was a cheap shot at rap and rappers. If you where in the thread that prompted this one and read the beginning of it it is blatantly obvious.;)

The story is not lost with those ugly words, what matters is the message, not how it is delivered. Those ugly words signify a lot about the conditions where like when these people grew up. That is just lazy and uncommitted listening in my opinion.

Well I wasn't in the thread that prompted this one, I only responded to the question at hand in my opinion, from my experience. If you read my whole post you would see I say that with the words not so harsh, the story can be told, facts can be taken from "rap".


The way the message is delivered very much matters to this lazy listener!

Let me ask you something King... isn't opinion based response something that this board is all about? I do not take cheap shots King.. but it appears you do!

[Requiem / The Dagda]

King....can we be honest buddy? You're what...20 (barely) and I'm 45. It's a given I have listened to thousands of songs, in all types of music, far more than yourself. Would you disagree with that?

Yeah, depending on the person anyone could disagree with that. Especially people who MAKE music. I don't speak for King, but I can speak for myself and say you're probably off here - in comparison to me.


I have listened to and enjoyed anything from Classical, to opera, to pop, to rock, to country, jazz, blues, and yes, plenty of rap. Did you forget I have a teenage kid, with teenage friends? I do listen to it, so I know what she's listening to. It's bleak, it's negative, and it's on the 'dark side'. It lacks respect for love, life, women, sex, and even the art of music itself.

Then that's the problem of your kid and her friends for listening to such trash. Want to know what perpetuates the problem of "bad" rap? The people who listen to it and parents that allow it. Oh, and places like MTV and the record industries (ran by white people) who allow it to go on because it sells.


Are there a few exceptions? Sure, but not near enough.

Wrong again. There are thousands of exceptions on there, you don't understand because you're not in the "know" and the kids listening to trash rap (BET/MTV) don't understand it because they do whatever it takes to make them look cool. Hip-hop has a very, very positive base now-a-days.


It's had a bad reputation in this country for years now, for good reason.

Yeah, it's called white people.


It's a trendish bad boy music where it's origins came from the streets (from thugs, gangsters). This is FACT, not my interpretation.

Wrong again, might want to look at the roots of hip-hop / rap again. Origins go back hundreds of years back to the slave trade from Africa; probably even further.


Now, do I like some Hip-Hop? Yes. Sometimes, that blends a little rap into it. However, not too much of it either.

Uh, this doesn't really make sense? "Hip-hop with a little rap in it?" Maybe I need elaboration, I'm sort of clueless here?


You should not be offended that we do not agree on this. I would expect it, as a generational gap. Remember....I was once 20 too, and I remember thinking 'just like you'.....in the sense that you 'assume' no one listens to what you do. I have, I do, and I don't like it. In fact, if there was a large movement against Rap....I'd join. ;)

Which proves what? That you guys have differences and that's about it. From a lot of your posts in this thread, you see to be really out of "reality" and the "loop" and are basing your opinion off of a minuscule branch of the genre today in order to try and proliferate what you're saying.

I play many instruments, and quite a few of them very well from guitar to bass to mandolin and even some piano. I frequently dabble with other instruments as well, especially instruments from other cultures because I respect music as a whole and want to encompass all aspects into my future creations.

I can write guitar riffs in a matter of seconds, I can write lyrics to those measures in minutes. A whole arranged song with a full set of instruments might take a day or so.

Sitting down with a myriad of samples and trying to diagnose a flow within a beat that makes sense to the essence of the music and lyrics is probably one of the hardest things I've ever encountered. Unless you've ever tried it, you'd never know - and a limited scope outlook on the genre as a whole will never, EVER give you an appreciation on how hard it is to create hip-hop.

The whole, "Anyone can do it, it takes no talent." is overplayed diatribe. If it's so easy - do it.

Last night it was my friend Justin's first show up here and I went out to support. He was nervous as HECK. He literally went to the bathroom 10 times in a half an hour before the show, but you know what? He pulled it off. He did a great job. Before him, a couple of sixteen year old kids came up and rapped about life up in the Midwest, rapped about themselves, their flaws and their upbringings and it was amazing. Sixteen year old kids doing good things, twenty year old kids doing good things. Talking about about what's wrong within the genre, instead of crapping all over it in general. What you bash is a minuscule portion of a global movement so diverse you probably wouldn't even understand it.

You dislike the genre, we get it - but your claims that it's a bunch of "no-talent music that anyone can do" are false and errant.

I'd like to call myself a pretty accomplished musician (played in numerous bands, organized school band, even working on a full-length album right now), and I'd have to say I have an immense amount of respect for hip-hop and the people who keep it alive. I used to hate a lot of it because I thought it was all about flashing signs, degrading women and talking about where the two-two's are at - but it's not. It's much more than that, and until people decide to open their minds and eyes, they'll never realize it.

Sorry if I come off as a little preachy, but I just had to speak up. Especially when the positive hip-hop culture I'm surrounded in today has allowed me to gain better respect for my peers, people who have differences from me culturally, etc. and more personally - the newest additions to my family.

[Poet]

Well I wasn't in the thread that prompted this one, I only responded to the question at hand in my opinion, from my experience. If you read my whole post you would see I say that with the words not so harsh, the story can be told, facts can be taken from "rap".


The way the message is delivered very much matters to this lazy listener!

Let me ask you something King... isn't opinion based response something that this board is all about? I do not take cheap shots King.. but it appears you do!

I don't take cheap shots at anyone schnooks. Ask any moderator that has ever dealt with me, if I want to take shots at someone I just take them.

I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it.

The harsh words often time describe the harsh life, and the harsh surrondings. It is part of the overall message, and sorry but going "argh this language is so bad and turning off you ears" is very much lazy listening.

[schnooks1]

King:
Well taking a shot at all because someone has an opinion different than yours is not the best way to persuade.

I listen very carefully to things that are not offensive. If I am offended by the words why would I continue to listen to the story?

Those that can relate will understand... but isn't the idea to "educate" those that can not?

If you disagree that is okay.. as I believe you have the right to your opinion. Your opinion based on how you feel, but not how you think I should feel.

[Jody]

Yeah, depending on the person anyone could disagree with that. Especially people who MAKE music. I don't speak for King, but I can speak for myself and say you're probably off here - in comparison to me.



Then that's the problem of your kid and her friends for listening to such trash. Want to know what perpetuates the problem of "bad" rap? The people who listen to it and parents that allow it. Oh, and places like MTV and the record industries (ran by white people) who allow it to go on because it sells.



Wrong again. There are thousands of exceptions on there, you don't understand because you're not in the "know" and the kids listening to trash rap (BET/MTV) don't understand it because they do whatever it takes to make them look cool. Hip-hop has a very, very positive base now-a-days.



Yeah, it's called white people.



Wrong again, might want to look at the roots of hip-hop / rap again. Origins go back hundreds of years back to the slave trade from Africa; probably even further.



Uh, this doesn't really make sense? "Hip-hop with a little rap in it?" Maybe I need elaboration, I'm sort of clueless here?



Which proves what? That you guys have differences and that's about it. From a lot of your posts in this thread, you see to be really out of "reality" and the "loop" and are basing your opinion off of a minuscule branch of the genre today in order to try and proliferate what you're saying.

I play many instruments, and quite a few of them very well from guitar to bass to mandolin and even some piano. I frequently dabble with other instruments as well, especially instruments from other cultures because I respect music as a whole and want to encompass all aspects into my future creations.

I can write guitar riffs in a matter of seconds, I can write lyrics to those measures in minutes. A whole arranged song with a full set of instruments might take a day or so.

Sitting down with a myriad of samples and trying to diagnose a flow within a beat that makes sense to the essence of the music and lyrics is probably one of the hardest things I've ever encountered. Unless you've ever tried it, you'd never know - and a limited scope outlook on the genre as a whole will never, EVER give you an appreciation on how hard it is to create hip-hop.

The whole, "Anyone can do it, it takes no talent." is overplayed diatribe. If it's so easy - do it.

Last night it was my friend Justin's first show up here and I went out to support. He was nervous as HECK. He literally went to the bathroom 10 times in a half an hour before the show, but you know what? He pulled it off. He did a great job. Before him, a couple of sixteen year old kids came up and rapped about life up in the Midwest, rapped about themselves, their flaws and their upbringings and it was amazing. Sixteen year old kids doing good things, twenty year old kids doing good things. Talking about about what's wrong within the genre, instead of crapping all over it in general. What you bash is a minuscule portion of a global movement so diverse you probably wouldn't even understand it.

You dislike the genre, we get it - but your claims that it's a bunch of "no-talent music that anyone can do" are false and errant.

I'd like to call myself a pretty accomplished musician (played in numerous bands, organized school band, even working on a full-length album right now), and I'd have to say I have an immense amount of respect for hip-hop and the people who keep it alive. I used to hate a lot of it because I thought it was all about flashing signs, degrading women and talking about where the two-two's are at - but it's not. It's much more than that, and until people decide to open their minds and eyes, they'll never realize it.

Sorry if I come off as a little preachy, but I just had to speak up. Especially when the positive hip-hop culture I'm surrounded in today has allowed me to gain better respect for my peers, people who have differences from me culturally, etc. and more personally - the newest additions to my family.

No, you don't come across "preachy", you come across like my opinion 'hit a nerve' and you are defensive. And you are not worldly by any sense of the word yet,being so young yourself, so let's not pretend that you have worldly experiences to go on. You are young enough, your thoughts are still too narrow to understand. Also, you have told people in threads before you were 'brought up in the hood'. So, I'm to think YOU are objective? Right.

When you catch up with my experience in this world, then and ONLY THEN, will we have a discussion worth continuing.

[Poet]

No, you don't come across "preachy", you come across like my opinion 'hit a nerve' and you are defensive. And you are not worldly by any sense of the word yet,being so young yourself, so let's not pretend that you have worldly experiences to go on. You are young enough, your thoughts are still too narrow to understand. Also, you have told people in threads before you were 'brought up in the hood'. So, I'm to think YOU are objective? Right.

When you catch up with my experience in this world, then and ONLY THEN, will we have a discussion worth continuing.

And then with that mentality what point is it for anyone under your age to even speak if you are just going to pull out the "I am older then you" card. The man makes music, his opinion has some weight to it but you didn't address it Jody.

His thoughts where very easy to understand.........

[Poet]

King:
Well taking a shot at all because someone has an opinion different than yours is not the best way to persuade.

I listen very carefully to things that are not offensive. If I am offended by the words why would I continue to listen to the story?

Those that can relate will understand... but isn't the idea to "educate" those that can not?

If you disagree that is okay.. as I believe you have the right to your opinion. Your opinion based on how you feel, but not how you think I should feel.

I didn't take a shot, my god if I was going to take a shot I would have taken a shot.

My point is that if you are going to talk about rap then you should listen to it, and if you are not going to listen to it then exactly why are you forming an opinion on it?

[Requiem / The Dagda]

No, you don't come across "preachy", you come across like my opinion 'hit a nerve' and you are defensive.

When you given an offensive baseless opinion, people will get defensive.


And you are not worldly by any sense of the word yet,being so young yourself, so let's not pretend that you have worldly experiences to go on.

I have plenty of experiences. More experiences than you ever will in relation to the subject matter at hand. Your "age" over mine has nothing to do with my "worldliness" in regards to this subject matter.


You are young enough, your thoughts are still too narrow to understand. Also, you have told people in threads before you were 'brought up in the hood'. So, I'm to think YOU are objective? Right.

My thoughts aren't narrow to understand when I live them. Uh, I never said I was raised up in the hood. I have been around many areas in my life where I know what it's like to relate to the music that some of us are passionate about in this thread. Objectiveness has nothing to do about it, I've been there and done that. You'd understand the music more if you have as well. Case closed.


When you catch up with my experience in this world, then and ONLY THEN, will we have a discussion worth continuing.

It's not worth continuing a discussion with you in the first place since you keep bringing up the such words as "youth and inexperience" to try and reinforce your misinformed opinion about hip-hop. Like I said, if it's so easy to do - go out and do it. You might be 45 years old, but you don't have a clue when it comes to hip hop culture and the music within it.

As I said, if it's so "easy to do and talentless" - try it. Go to any open mic night at any fairly large city (and I'm positive they have this in Omaha) make yourself some homemade beats and get up there in spit.

This is where the age card doesn't work for you or anyone else on this forum. I have immense experience and knowledge about the subject at hand. You listening to a few popular songs on the radio and coming up with a baseless opinion on hip-hop doesn't mean squat.

I've seen probably around a hundred hip-hop shows over the past five years and have been involved in several of them. I have traveled city after city and have came to the conclusion that the old "hip-hop" is dead (Thanks, Nas!) and the hip-hop hitting the waves now is brighter and more positive than ever. It's just lacking the national exposure because that's not what sells. People aren't into the introspective, humbleness in the music world - they're about all the bad things that have been mentioned in more. I blame the record producers and the misinformed people regarding music for perpetuating this cycle. It seems like you're a part of that cycle, unfortunately.

Once more, I know what it's like to play musical instruments and be a musician - and just hearing with what some people can do with an MPC, Pro Tools and a mic is simply amazing. Then again, the three things that most people lack when it comes to approaching this music is the heart, the mind and the experiences to go along with them.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

And then with that mentality what point is it for anyone under your age to even speak if you are just going to pull out the "I am older then you" card. The man makes music, his opinion has some weight to it but you didn't address it Jody.

Bingo. Rather than addressing the opinions it'd rather be a little "shoot 'em down, shoot around" which we're all accustomed to seeing on the boards. Age has nothing to do with this subject at hand, because it's quite obvious that those with personal experiences in this area would have opinions that hold more weight than those who do not.

That'd be like saying a 63 year old who has never been in war would know more than someone who is 23 and fresh out of a tour in Iraq. Doesn't really make sense, but does age card thing sure isn't surprising here.

[underrated29]

I think this is too general of a question and is too easy to scapegoat and stereotype. There are a lot of rappers out there who suck, but make tons of money for stupid easy songs they write.

Then there are others who are not, and do have a great talent and rhyming and getting everything to flow.

I would say majority of rappers are not all that intelligent or well educated, however, i know that there are some very samrt ones out there as well.

Same goes for lyrical content. There is a lot of bad, degrading, etc. And from the 80's and 90's that is very evident. Nowadays too, but its branched off i think. On the contrary, there is a lot of 80/90's rap or soul that is love, and nice.

Its jsut to general. I wouldnt trust anything anyone says unless i know their qualifications and have seen it in action several times myself.

I will say i do like rap, all kinds, love,hardcore,violent,party or crunk, but i dont like those stupid words.

EX. if ODB or MYSTICAL or made a statement i would be less inclined to belive its validity as if it were maybe...i dont know..Nas or LL cool j or even RUN and DMC (rip).

[Requiem / The Dagda]

ODB was awesome though man! :laugh:

[underrated29]

ODB was awesome though man! :laugh:

hell ya, was sad to see him go. He was one crazy mofo!

[aberdien]

That is so true it is not all terrible......I have never heard that one!

I promise you though, I do not hear that positive rap blasting when we pull up to a stop light. I hear negative, vile words that echo through the streets to my child's ear. She had to ask me what N***** was because of rap that we heard blaring through a parking lot. It made me sick hearing her say the word.

Some Rap can give the idea that it is okay to "sing" words I would not allow my children to speak to me at any age. (I have a 31, 29, and 8 year old) My son listens to music I do not appreciate. He likes to go to concerts and be in the "mosh pits" (I still have no clue what those are) I loved Led Zeplin when I was a teen and my parent's thought "Stairway to Heaven" was the work of the "devil"! (play the words backwards and all!!!) I thought it was a deep meaningful song because of how I interpreted it.

What I am saying is that this thread asks if Rap can be used as a fact gathering tool. The rap you pointed could be considered, but like I said earlier, for those that do not listen to "rap" on the norm, a lot of it is negative;and the story gets lost with the ugly words!


Yeah, most people don't like rap because they don't bother searching for good rap rather than only listen to what MTV feeds you. I'm not really a big fan of rap either, but I do enjoy some that isn't degrading and stuff. I blame the kids that think it's awesome to degrade women and curse as much as possible.

[aberdien]

Bingo. Rather than addressing the opinions it'd rather be a little "shoot 'em down, shoot around" which we're all accustomed to seeing on the boards. Age has nothing to do with this subject at hand, because it's quite obvious that those with personal experiences in this area would have opinions that hold more weight than those who do not.

That'd be like saying a 63 year old who has never been in war would know more than someone who is 23 and fresh out of a tour in Iraq. Doesn't really make sense, but does age card thing sure isn't surprising here.

Third.

But I do find it a bit funny that most of the "older" people have voted for No, but what are the age ranges for the people that voted for yes?:D

[Poet]

Third.

But I do find it a bit funny that most of the "older" people have voted for No, but what are the age ranges for the people that voted for yes?:D

Just more proof that younger people are less set in their ways and more objective.......

[schnooks1]

Yeah, most people don't like rap because they don't bother searching for good rap rather than only listen to what MTV feeds you. I'm not really a big fan of rap either, but I do enjoy some that isn't degrading and stuff. I blame the kids that think it's awesome to degrade women and curse as much as possible.

I believe that there can be good rap. I have heard some on the Disney channel that my 8 year old watches and I know that it probably isn't the "true" rap, but it is a young boy and he is very good. My daughter loves the beat, so do I, and we enjoy that kind.
There is the "ugly" side to a lot of music. Being of the 'older" crowd and listening to Led Zepplin and trying to convince my parents that it was good music, I do understand that it is to each his own. I just object to the "rap" being played at the highest decible while I am at a stop light with the crudest of words being exposed to my 8 year old, and not being able to do anything about it. (except run the red light!)

[Bronco4ever]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jtT3SP1D_SY

LOL! This is funny stuff. A lot of thought and inspiration was needed to make that song.

[Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal]

I didn't take a shot, my god if I was going to take a shot I would have taken a shot.

My point is that if you are going to talk about rap then you should listen to it, and if you are not going to listen to it then exactly why are you forming an opinion on it?

Co-Signed^^ Aint it always the people from the outside looking is trying to make a strong case about something there ignorant to?

[SR]

Co-Signed^^ Aint it always the people from the outside looking is trying to make a strong case about something there ignorant to?

I'm not sure that makes any sense?

[Requiem / The Dagda]

All I gotta say is Method Man's - 4:21. . . The Day After is an epic album. That dude got fresh through all of it.

[OB]

not reading responses

but A: what kind of facts

B No music is good for facts - ITS EDITED

C. Dont believe anything unless youve seen it yourself

[OB]

I have plenty of experiences. More experiences than you ever will in relation to the subject matter at hand. Your "age" over mine has nothing to do with my "worldliness" in regards to this subject matter.


.

Youve referenced this more than once - I would love for you to elaborate on your "street" history

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Youve referenced this more than once - I would love for you to elaborate on your "street" history

I'd be happy to through PM, nothing on the main forum. I'm a professional.

[OB]

I'd be happy to through PM, nothing on the main forum. I'm a professional.

Well PM then :)

[claymore]

Well PM then :)
Then post the PM. I love street stories. :listen: