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spikerman
08-09-2009, 02:53 PM
I wanted to start a thread where people could post some common myths about football, i.e. some things that we've always been taught that just aren't true.

For instance, from an officiating standpoint I have been yelled at by coaches and players over and over and over again because they want a call of "face guarding". In Texas we use college rules (with a couple of exceptions) and when I tell those coaches and players that there is no rule against face guarding they usually go ballistic. I believe there is a rule in NFHS, but it doesn't exist in college or the NFL.

So, Myth #1 - Face guarding is a penalty (above NFHS)

MOtorboat
08-09-2009, 03:37 PM
Very close to that is also illegal contact. I was at a seven-on-seven tournament one Saturday a few years ago and a group of parents were throwing fits about illegal contact (not pass interference - they kept yelling, "hey, that's after five yards" but the ball wasn't in the air yet)...A.J. Ofodile, who had a cup of coffee with the Ravens when they won the Super Bowl (He was listed at 6-6, 260) was the coach for the opposing team...he told them to shut up, because this wasn't the pros. They didn't say anything after that. Quite funny, actually.

spikerman
08-09-2009, 03:59 PM
Very close to that is also illegal contact. I was at a seven-on-seven tournament one Saturday a few years ago and a group of parents were throwing fits about illegal contact (not pass interference - they kept yelling, "hey, that's after five yards" but the ball wasn't in the air yet)...A.J. Ofodile, who had a cup of coffee with the Ravens when they won the Super Bowl (He was listed at 6-6, 260) was the coach for the opposing team...he told them to shut up, because this wasn't the pros. They didn't say anything after that. Quite funny, actually.

That's exactly right. Even in college ball the defender can pretty much block the receiver all the way down the field (as long as he's not holding him) until the ball is thrown (actually until it crosses the line of scrimmage).

spikerman
08-09-2009, 04:01 PM
Ok, here's another one. You play until the whistle blows. That's not actually true. In football the whistle doesn't "kill the play" the play "kills the play". It is entirely possible and sometimes appropriate to throw a flag for a personal foul for a late hit even if the whistle hasn't blown.

So, Myth #3 - The play isn't over until the whistle blows

tripleoption
08-09-2009, 04:08 PM
That's exactly right. Even in college ball the defender can pretty much block the receiver all the way down the field (as long as he's not holding him) until the ball is thrown (actually until it crosses the line of scrimmage).

It's that way in NFHS rules too. We teach our DB's and LB's to hammer receivers until the ball is thrown. Initially though lots of kids think that after five yards you can't touch the receiver, so that's a misconception we have to fix early on. Spikerman, this is a great thread!! Good idea!! :beer:

spikerman
08-09-2009, 04:11 PM
It's that way in NFHS rules too. We teach our DB's and LB's to hammer receivers until the ball is thrown. Initially though lots of kids think that after five yards you can't touch the receiver, so that's a misconception we have to fix early on. Spikerman, this is a great thread!! Good idea!! :beer:

Thanks triple!!!! I didn't realize that was the rule in NFHS too. :beer:

sneakers
08-09-2009, 06:07 PM
I have no idea what face guarding is (doesn't a face mask guard the face?)

spikerman
08-09-2009, 06:24 PM
I have no idea what face guarding is (doesn't a face mask guard the face?)

"Face guarding" is when a defender sticks his arms or hands up in front of the receiver in an effort to block the view or in the hopes that the ball will hit his hands or arms. The defender usually has no idea where the ball is and is not actually making a play on the ball he is just throwing his arms up. One way to ID face guarding is that the defender never looks back at the ball. As long as there is no contact between the defender and the receiver this is perfectly legal.

I don't know if I explained that well so here's a scenario. Say that a receiver has gotten behind a defender and the defender is now in "chase" mode. Let's also say that the QB throws the ball deep and the defender knows that the ball may have been thrown toward his receiver, but has no idea where the ball is. The defender throws his hands up, blocking the receiver's view and runs that way for 5 or 10 yards until the ball hits the defender's arms or hands and falls incomplete. As long as there was no contact between the two there is no penalty.

If this doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try to say it in another way.

West
08-09-2009, 07:02 PM
Ok, here's another one. You play until the whistle blows. That's not actually true. In football the whistle doesn't "kill the play" the play "kills the play". It is entirely possible and sometimes appropriate to throw a flag for a personal foul for a late hit even if the whistle hasn't blown.

So, Myth #3 - The play isn't over until the whistle blows

Ahhhhhhh... I love that. I use to cream unsuspecting OL who would stand around the pile moments before the whistle blew..... :dance:

spikerman
08-09-2009, 07:21 PM
Ahhhhhhh... I love that. I use to cream unsuspecting OL who would stand around the pile moments before the whistle blew..... :dance:
Right, but what I'm saying is that if he isn't engaged and the play has "killed itself" it should be a penalty for you to hit that lineman. For instance, if a player is down and it's obvious that the player is down, the play is over - regardless of whether there is a whistle or not. Any action after that could be flagged.

West
08-09-2009, 07:22 PM
Right, but what I'm saying is that if he isn't engaged and the play has "killed itself" it should be a penalty for you to hit that lineman. For instance, if a player is down and it's obvious that the player is down, the play is over - regardless of whether there is a whistle or not. Any action after that could be flagged.

But its not a penalty.

spikerman
08-09-2009, 07:23 PM
But its not a penalty.

Why not?

West
08-09-2009, 07:33 PM
Why not?


Cause the whistle hasn't blown.

nj10
08-09-2009, 07:36 PM
Ok, here's another one. You play until the whistle blows. That's not actually true. In football the whistle doesn't "kill the play" the play "kills the play". It is entirely possible and sometimes appropriate to throw a flag for a personal foul for a late hit even if the whistle hasn't blown.

So, Myth #3 - The play isn't over until the whistle blows

I disagree...The whistle DOES signal the end of the play. While knocking the crap out of someone after the tackle is extremely dirty...it's not illegal if the whistle has yet to be blown. Example: The Jets TD on us last year after the player was "tackled." The Denver D believed the play to be over and stopped playing despite no whistle sounding. Had they played until a whistle was blown...no Jets touchdown.

(This crosses all levels. College rules. Pro rules and highschool at least under the UIL.)

nj10
08-09-2009, 07:41 PM
Right, but what I'm saying is that if he isn't engaged and the play has "killed itself" it should be a penalty for you to hit that lineman. For instance, if a player is down and it's obvious that the player is down, the play is over - regardless of whether there is a whistle or not. Any action after that could be flagged.

I hate myself for saying this...but West is right. It's not illegal. I will say that when I'm coaching highschool football in two short years, a player that takes blind-side cheap shots like west described that are not legitimate blocks...will be pulled for the remainder of the game and punished under my authority as a coach.

spikerman
08-09-2009, 07:46 PM
I hate myself for saying this...but West is right. It's not illegal. I will say that when I'm coaching highschool football in two short years, a player that takes blind-side cheap shots like west described that are not legitimate blocks...will be pulled for the remainder of the game and punished under my authority as a coach.
They are illegal. Once the play has ended, regardless of a whistle or not, that would be a personal foul. In fact, at the college level (and I assume high school) that could be considered "targeting" and could result in an ejection of the player. That's the myth. A whistle does not have to blow for a play to be over. In fact, even in the NFL now they will call a penalty for someone taking a shot at a player who is just standing around a pile.

nj10
08-09-2009, 07:57 PM
They are illegal. Once the play has ended, regardless of a whistle or not, that would be a personal foul. In fact, at the college level (and I assume high school) that could be considered "targeting" and could result in an ejection of the player. That's the myth. A whistle does not have to blow for a play to be over. In fact, even in the NFL now they will call a penalty for someone taking a shot at a player who is just standing around a pile.

I know it is penalized...but under rule it should not be. I don't condone it, but technically it is not illegal. If a referee does not blow the whistle, it is his mistake. The whistle does signal the end of the play. This is the organization in organized sports. What's the point of blowing the whistle at the end of the play otherwise? Officials officiate and players play. The player is not responsible for deeming when the play has ended. That is the official's job. If a defender claims an offensive player stepped out of bounds...It doesn't matter. He has no authority to make that call. Players don't decide when the play is over.

spikerman
08-09-2009, 07:59 PM
I have the NCAA rule book in front of me and rule 4, Section 1, Article 2 says "A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds his whistle". The key here is in bold.

Article 3 expands on this. It says a ball is declared dead when (I'm not going to give them all, just a few to show that it doesn't take a whistle for the ball to become dead (and ending the play):

a. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a fg (rest omitted)
b. When any part of the ball carrier's body, except his hand or foot, touches the ground or when the ball carrier is tackled or otherwise falls and loses possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his body, except his hand or foot (rest omitted)

These examples go all the way to "q" so I don't want to type them all. Anyway, it does say in the rulebook that the official should blow the whistle when this happens, but even if there is no whistle the ball is declared dead if any of these instances happen.

Does this make sense? If you happen to have a rule book, I'm looking at pages FR-78 - FR-79

spikerman
08-09-2009, 08:03 PM
I know it is penalized...but under rule it should not be. I don't condone it, but technically it is not illegal. If a referee does not blow the whistle, it is his mistake. The whistle does signal the end of the play. This is the organization in organized sports. What's the point of blowing the whistle at the end of the play otherwise? Officials officiate and players play. The player is not responsible for deeming when the play has ended. That is the official's job. If a defender claims an offensive player stepped out of bounds...It doesn't matter. He has no authority to make that call. Players don't decide when the play is over.

I don't want to indicate that officials are going to throw flags on borderline plays. We're talking about plays that are obviously over. Take West's example. If that lineman is standing around a pile of players all on the ground, the play is obviously over. If a player runs over to hit him even though the play is obviously over just because a whistle hasn't blown, that's still a penalty. If he hits him just as the players are tackled and it's a "bang-bang" play, no official is going to call that a penalty, at least not for a late hit.

nj10
08-09-2009, 08:07 PM
These examples go all the way to "q" so I don't want to type them all. Anyway, it does say in the rulebook that the official should blow the whistle when this happens, but even if there is no whistle the ball is declared dead if any of these instances happen.



Declared dead? I fully understand. But since when is anyone other than an official allowed to declare anything. Per my previous example. It is an officials job to make all declarations of when a ball is dead. "If a defender claims an offensive player stepped out of bounds...It doesn't matter. He has no authority to make that call." I get what you're saying...but this is a gap in the rules apparently.

nj10
08-09-2009, 08:08 PM
I don't want to indicate that officials are going to throw flags on borderline plays. We're talking about plays that are obviously over. Take West's example. If that lineman is standing around a pile of players all on the ground, the play is obviously over. If a player runs over to hit him even though the play is obviously over just because a whistle hasn't blown, that's still a penalty. If he hits him just as the players are tackled and it's a "bang-bang" play, no official is going to call that a penalty, at least not for a late hit.

Un-necessary roughness call? ok...acceptable. I gotcha now.

spikerman
08-09-2009, 08:10 PM
Declared dead? I fully understand. But since when is anyone other than an official allowed to declare anything. Per my previous example. It is an officials job to make all declarations of when a ball is dead. "If a defender claims an offensive player stepped out of bounds...It doesn't matter. He has no authority to make that call." I get what you're saying...but this is a gap in the rules apparently.

Exactly.. it's a tricky area. I haven't been into officiating that long, and believe me I thought exactly the same thing about the whistle until I got into it. To me the rule makes sense, but it can lead to some very sticky situations.

BroncoWave
08-09-2009, 08:23 PM
Given the new "Hochuli Rule" the whistle does NOT end the play anymore. If a play is blown dead like in week 2 against SD last year but a defender recovers it after the whistle, the defensive team is awarded the ball if they win the challenge.

West
08-09-2009, 08:29 PM
I hate myself for saying this...but West is right. It's not illegal. I will say that when I'm coaching highschool football in two short years, a player that takes blind-side cheap shots like west described that are not legitimate blocks...will be pulled for the remainder of the game and punished under my authority as a coach.

:lol: Awesome. I love it. I think it fires up the team.

spikerman
08-09-2009, 09:24 PM
Declared dead? I fully understand. But since when is anyone other than an official allowed to declare anything. Per my previous example. It is an officials job to make all declarations of when a ball is dead. "If a defender claims an offensive player stepped out of bounds...It doesn't matter. He has no authority to make that call." I get what you're saying...but this is a gap in the rules apparently.

Sorry, I missed this earlier. When it says "declared dead" they mean that it is declared dead by rule.

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