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BroncoWave
09-28-2012, 04:31 PM
Now take this with a grain of salt since Simmons is a self-proclaimed Manning hater, but I thought some might find it interesting.

"As for Peyton … I have to be honest, I don't understand the respect that people are giving Denver at all. Manning's arm looks dreadful. Really bad. Like seeing a formerly great pitcher in the last year of his career when he's throwing junk and relying on pinpoint location, with no room for error whatsoever. I just don't see how this gets better. They have a terrible running game and a noodle-armed QB. They fell behind by 20 points in Week 2 and Week 3. What am I missing?"

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8435690/welcome-elaborate-chat

Ravage!!!
09-28-2012, 04:34 PM
Apparently, he's missing some pretty basic football knowledge.

NightTrainLayne
09-28-2012, 04:38 PM
I think someone looking in from the outside could easily draw this conclusion. I'm worried myself to some extent, but I'm not losing any sleep over it.

chazoe60
09-28-2012, 04:39 PM
Moron: What am I missing?

The games you flipping dolt. We lost to the two best teams in the league by a combined 12 points, and we played like crap for 6 out of the 8 quarters.

Hey media memeber, pull your head put of your ass and watch the actual games, jackass.

Buff
09-28-2012, 04:41 PM
I love Bill Simmons and think he is the greatest sports journalist of all-time - but he is a self-proclaimed Manning hater. He is a Boston-native who hates him from the Pats-Colts rivalry, and he has predicted failure from Manning ever since he said he wanted to come back after his 4th neck procedure. Now that we've struggled in back-to-back weeks he's ready to show that his prediction was correct.

I'd counter by saying that we got owned by two very good teams - so I think it can and will get better on the offensive side.

BroncoWave
09-28-2012, 04:46 PM
I was curious what Manning's stats are this season if you take out that dreadfully anomalous first quarter against Atlanta and they are nearly every bit as good as at any other point in his career. 98 QB rating, 59% completions, 7.3 YPA. The % and YPA are slightly down but nothing too drastic, and this is considering we have faced 3 of the absolute best defenses in the league. The arm strength concerns have been more than disproven so i'm not even worried about that. I think Simmons will be looking might dumb by the end of the season.

Buff
09-28-2012, 04:46 PM
The games you flipping dolt. We lost to the two best teams in the league by a combined 12 points, and we played like crap for 6 out of the 8 quarters.

Hey media memeber, pull your head put of your ass and watch the actual games, jackass.

I don't love this counter, because truthfully our offense has sucked during the 6 quarters where defenses were giving us their best schemes. It has succeeded against off-coverage once Houston and Atlanta got big leads. I'm hopeful that those teams were just better than most of the rest of our opponents, but it is a little worrisome IMO.

G_Money
09-28-2012, 04:47 PM
I really enjoy Bill's basketball takes, but his football knowledge is more betting-based than assessment-based.

The Broncos would be a bad team to lay bets on this year for points or spread, but losing "the two best teams in the league by a combined 12 points, and we played like crap for 6 out of the 8 quarters" is about right. The engine's not finely tuned at this point, but as we sputter there's still some horsepower under the hood.

Once Manning understands the limitations placed on his arm and we stop Frankensteining McCoy to Manning's hip, it'll get better. Receivers catching the ball will help too.

We'll see what happens this week to start opening some eyes.

~G

BroncoWave
09-28-2012, 04:48 PM
I don't love this counter, because truthfully our offense has sucked during the 6 quarters where defenses were giving us their best schemes. It has succeeded against off-coverage once Houston and Atlanta got big leads. I'm hopeful that those teams were just better than most of the rest of our opponents, but it is a little worrisome IMO.

I would say the only one of those quarters in which Manning was really bad was the first quarter against Atlanta though. I think the o-line and receivers have been MUCH bigger problems in the passing game than Manning.

Buff
09-28-2012, 04:49 PM
The arm strength concerns have been more than disproven.

I know this is an unpopular viewpoint, but frankly I don't trust the Michael Smith analysis, or the idea that MNF was able to clock one pass that Manning threw. It sort of feels like Knoshon Moreno's YPC stats - they seem to contradict what my eyes and brain are telling me.

Manning hasn't unleashed any good looking deep balls this season to my recollection. The best was in the SF preseason game, but that wasn't all that deep.

BroncoJoe
09-28-2012, 04:52 PM
I think it's blind allegence for anyone to say Manning is the same QB he was 2 years ago. It's pretty clear to me he is not 100%, but will keep inproving. That along with having new receivers, new coaches, new stadium, etc., it's just going to take several games for everyone to be on the same page and the strength in his arm to return to normal.

chazoe60
09-28-2012, 04:52 PM
The problem has been the resistance to going no huddle. Once we go no huddle and get into a groove we've been very good. Also, it's all very new and we look like a team that isn't all the same page yet. Once we get on the same page watch out NFL defenses.

BroncoWave
09-28-2012, 04:53 PM
I know this is an unpopular viewpoint, but frankly I don't trust the Michael Smith analysis, or the idea that MNF was able to clock one pass that Manning threw. It sort of feels like Knoshon Moreno's YPC stats - they seem to contradict what my eyes and brain are telling me.

Manning hasn't unleashed any good looking deep balls this season to my recollection. The best was in the SF preseason game, but that wasn't all that deep.

He threw that pinpoint deep pass to decker that was dropped against Atlanta. I have no doubt his arm strength has decreased a little if for no other reason than aging, which happens to almost every QB, but as has been noted, deep bombs have never really been what he kills you with. He's always been more deadly in the short to intermediate range. Either that or my view has just been clouded by all of his games against the Broncos in which we played our DBs 10 yard off and he killed us underneath time and time again.

BroncoWave
09-28-2012, 04:54 PM
I think it's blind allegence for anyone to say Manning is the same QB he was 2 years ago. It's pretty clear to me he is not 100%, but will keep inproving. That along with having new receivers, new coaches, new stadium, etc., it's just going to take several games for everyone to be on the same page and the strength in his arm to return to normal.

What Simmons said is quite a bit different than "he's not the same QB he was 2 years ago". He's pretty much calling him Chad Pennington now.

Ravage!!!
09-28-2012, 05:00 PM
I know this is an unpopular viewpoint, but frankly I don't trust the Michael Smith analysis, or the idea that MNF was able to clock one pass that Manning threw. It sort of feels like Knoshon Moreno's YPC stats - they seem to contradict what my eyes and brain are telling me.

Manning hasn't unleashed any good looking deep balls this season to my recollection. The best was in the SF preseason game, but that wasn't all that deep.

I think the lines to DT down the middle for the TD (that was dropped)...and the 38 yard completion to Decker while moving to his right (came back because of a holding call)... showed that the arm strength complaint is pretty off base.

BroncoJoe
09-28-2012, 05:01 PM
What Simmons said is quite a bit different than "he's not the same QB he was 2 years ago". He's pretty much calling him Chad Pennington now.

Didn't read it - just posting my thoughts.

Ravage!!!
09-28-2012, 05:13 PM
or the idea that MNF was able to clock one pass that Manning threw.


They don't have to clock it. The passes are on film. The yardage is marked right there on the field, and you have a stop watch. Anyone can calculate out how fast something is moving if you know the distance and how long it took the object to go said distance.

People used to be stopped for speeding down highways by plane. The plane obviously wasn't using radar from above, since the radar relies on the object moving towards them. But the plane would time a car from one white square painted on the highway, to the next white square.

Superchop 7
09-28-2012, 05:27 PM
Once the timing with the receivers is better.....good things will happen.

His out-route pass during a game is 2mph slower.....that's it.....not an issue.

Buff
09-28-2012, 05:32 PM
They don't have to clock it. The passes are on film. The yardage is marked right there on the field, and you have a stop watch. Anyone can calculate out how fast something is moving if you know the distance and how long it took the object to go said distance.

People used to be stopped for speeding down highways by plane. The plane obviously wasn't using radar from above, since the radar relies on the object moving towards them. But the plane would time a car from one white square painted on the highway, to the next white square.

Ok, but this ignores the point of my post, which is that they could have been using infallible laser technology from the military, or sun dials, and I'd still be second guessing the assertion that his arm strength hasn't been impacted.

Nomad
09-28-2012, 05:38 PM
An after injury, aging Peyton Manning will not be like his old self physically.....that's a newsflash. Dude is probably the smartest QB out there and I trust he has it figured out, it's the rest of the team that has to be on the same page.

HORSEPOWER 56
09-28-2012, 07:36 PM
I know this is an unpopular viewpoint, but frankly I don't trust the Michael Smith analysis, or the idea that MNF was able to clock one pass that Manning threw. It sort of feels like Knoshon Moreno's YPC stats - they seem to contradict what my eyes and brain are telling me.

Manning hasn't unleashed any good looking deep balls this season to my recollection. The best was in the SF preseason game, but that wasn't all that deep.

You didn't like the pass that Manning threw to DT that he didn't drag his second foot on? 30+ yarder on the money. How about the TD to Stokely? That had plenty of zip and was spot on. At this point, no, he can't just "flick of the wrist" it 20-30 yards downfield anymore, but when he lets his mechanics take over and strides into the throw, he has plenty of zip on his passes.

Buff
09-28-2012, 07:45 PM
You didn't like the pass that Manning threw to DT that he didn't drag his second foot on? 30+ yarder on the money. How about the TD to Stokely? That had plenty of zip and was spot on. At this point, no, he can't just "flick of the wrist" it 20-30 yards downfield anymore, but when he lets his mechanics take over and strides into the throw, he has plenty of zip on his passes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he can't be effective... But he hasn't unleashed a serious deep ball, and obviously if Brock Osweiler was getting ready to throw a hail mary the other week then the team knows he has some limitations.

BroncoWave
09-28-2012, 07:56 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he can't be effective... But he hasn't unleashed a serious deep ball, and obviously if Brock Osweiler was getting ready to throw a hail mary the other week then the team knows he has some limitations.

The Osweiler thing is a complete non-story. A 21 year old with a cannon can probably throw it further than just about any QB in his mid-30's. Sheer brute arm strength has NEVER been Manning's specialty. Given that a hail mary is completely based on brute arm strength and luck, there would be no reason to have Manning throw it if Oz can throw it further.

SR
09-28-2012, 08:25 PM
The Osweiler thing is a complete non-story. A 21 year old with a cannon can probably throw it further than just about any QB in his mid-30's. Sheer brute arm strength has NEVER been Manning's specialty. Given that a hail mary is completely based on brute arm strength and luck, there would be no reason to have Manning throw it if Oz can throw it further.

It seems to me that people are about as educated on Manning's playing style and talents as they are about his neck surgeries.

BroncoWave
09-28-2012, 08:29 PM
It seems to me that people are about as educated on Manning's playing style and talents as they are about his neck surgeries.

Seriously. You'd think he was Brett Favre or John Elway before his surgery the way some people talk about him now.

And people act like it's some revolutionary thing that we would take out Manning for a hail mary. I can't think of specific examples off the top of my head, but I've definitely seem teams bring in their stronger-armed backups to throw hail marys before.

EMB6903
09-28-2012, 08:51 PM
3 games vs a dick lebeau, mike Nolan, and wade Phillips defense and people are worried?

Manning is still... Peyton f'n Manning... Still an elite quarterback in this league.

Defenses were playing prevent vs Denver since they were up late...riiight

That explains why decker was able to get open downfield late vs Atlanta only to drop the ball.

How about stokely and DT getting behind the Houston defense in the 4th quarter when manning threw 2 great deep balls...?

Pay attention. It helps.

Buff
09-28-2012, 09:23 PM
The Osweiler thing is a complete non-story. A 21 year old with a cannon can probably throw it further than just about any QB in his mid-30's. Sheer brute arm strength has NEVER been Manning's specialty. Given that a hail mary is completely based on brute arm strength and luck, there would be no reason to have Manning throw it if Oz can throw it further.


It seems to me that people are about as educated on Manning's playing style and talents as they are about his neck surgeries.


Seriously. You'd think he was Brett Favre or John Elway before his surgery the way some people talk about him now.

And people act like it's some revolutionary thing that we would take out Manning for a hail mary. I can't think of specific examples off the top of my head, but I've definitely seem teams bring in their stronger-armed backups to throw hail marys before.

I don't really understand why you guys are so defiant about it. The guy can still play QB in this league at a high level, that much is clear... I want him to succeed and I'm happy we signed him.

But he also clearly has some physical limitations that go beyond typical aging. I'm not saying those limitations are going to prevent him from potentially competing for a Super Bowl. Just acknowledging reality - Peyton has admitted that he's more limited physically, the team has acknowledged it - it's just hard to notice because it's more about the throws he's not making than the ones he is. Long deep balls appear to be a limitation of his... Which I agree was never the best part of his game, but it's still a limitation that defenses can gameplan around.

Chef Zambini
09-28-2012, 09:50 PM
manning is the LEAST of our offensive worries.
there are only 3 undefeated teams in the NFL.
we lost to 2 of them.
step away from the panic button.

Softskull
09-29-2012, 12:07 AM
The author may be right, but for the time being, it's just speculation. So until it's actually proven, the author can eat me.

Hawgdriver
09-29-2012, 12:25 AM
You didn't like the pass that Manning threw to DT that he didn't drag his second foot on? 30+ yarder on the money. How about the TD to Stokely? That had plenty of zip and was spot on. At this point, no, he can't just "flick of the wrist" it 20-30 yards downfield anymore, but when he lets his mechanics take over and strides into the throw, he has plenty of zip on his passes.

I think the most accurate thing to say is that Manning's release takes longer for the same amount of "ball energy". It's not that he's incapable of generating the same zip, it's just that his time from "brain: throw to Stokely" to ball in the air with zip is slightly longer. He needs to recruit more leg power / hip flex for harder/deeper throws, so it may have the same zip, but he's easier to read in terms of windup. We are talking tenths of seconds. But, it does impact the game. Just a hunch, I could be full of it.

Dzone
09-29-2012, 01:52 AM
Imagine what Manning would be able to do this season if he didnt have receivers that suck.

hotcarl
09-29-2012, 07:28 AM
Imagine what Manning would be able to do this season if he didnt have receivers that suck.

or an o-line that could pass protect
or a running game
or a decent o coordinator
or a defense that could get off the field
or a pro officiating crew
or a nerve that wasn't damaged thus rendering his arm useless

tomjonesrocks
09-29-2012, 06:30 PM
Now take this with a grain of salt since Simmons is a self-proclaimed Manning hater, but I thought some might find it interesting.

"As for Peyton … I have to be honest, I don't understand the respect that people are giving Denver at all. Manning's arm looks dreadful. Really bad. Like seeing a formerly great pitcher in the last year of his career when he's throwing junk and relying on pinpoint location, with no room for error whatsoever. I just don't see how this gets better. They have a terrible running game and a noodle-armed QB. They fell behind by 20 points in Week 2 and Week 3. What am I missing?"

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8435690/welcome-elaborate-chat

Totally get it except the part where he says Denver's getting respect. They are? I haven't heard a thing about the Broncos really making serious noise in any shape or form since week 1.

rjent
09-29-2012, 08:46 PM
Totally get it except the part where he says Denver's getting respect. They are? I haven't heard a thing about the Broncos really making serious noise in any shape or form since week 1.

That is pretty much situation normal for the press, even when we were winning back to back SBs .... :coffee:

Simple Jaded
09-29-2012, 10:12 PM
Even if Manning somehow turns back time to 1998 I hope Simmons and the like don't expect Manning's arm strength to be significantly better than it is now. Deep passes may be an issue but it's velocity that I care about, QB's aren't often asked to crank passes much deeper than the passes Manning threw to Thomas/Stokley last week.

Deep passes outside the numbers is still a question mark for me, I can only remember one such attempt, the one to Ball vs 49ers.

I think the thing Manning misses most is the spacing his Indy offense provided.......

TimHippo
09-30-2012, 11:03 AM
Even if Manning somehow turns back time to 1998 I hope Simmons and the like don't expect Manning's arm strength to be significantly better than it is now. Deep passes may be an issue but it's velocity that I care about, QB's aren't often asked to crank passes much deeper than the passes Manning threw to Thomas/Stokley last week.

Deep passes outside the numbers is still a question mark for me, I can only remember one such attempt, the one to Ball vs 49ers.

I think the thing Manning misses most is the spacing his Indy offense provided.......

His velocity is not there. He's throwing 80 mph when he used to throw 90.
Maybe his arm will improve as the season goes on but tight now he doesn't have the juice.
He basically has to wind up to compensate which is slowing down his release and leading to him getting sacked and hurried. At Indy he was hardly ever sacked or hurried.

TimHippo
09-30-2012, 11:08 AM
Also if you can't throw the long ball then defensive can clog the middle of the field and blitz more.
This is why guys like Wuerfull and the Detmers struggled at the NFL level even though they had a lot of success in college.

chazoe60
09-30-2012, 11:22 AM
Shoulda kept Tebow.

SmilinAssasSin27
09-30-2012, 06:13 PM
Noodle arm my ass

Simple Jaded
09-30-2012, 06:18 PM
I honestly have no idea what these people are watching.......

Simple Jaded
09-30-2012, 06:20 PM
His velocity is not there. He's throwing 80 mph when he used to throw 90.
Maybe his arm will improve as the season goes on but tight now he doesn't have the juice.
He basically has to wind up to compensate which is slowing down his release and leading to him getting sacked and hurried. At Indy he was hardly ever sacked or hurried.
What-the-****-ever.......

Davii
09-30-2012, 06:27 PM
Also if you can't throw the long ball then defensive can clog the middle of the field and blitz more.
This is why guys like Wuerfull and the Detmers struggled at the NFL level even though they had a lot of success in college.

Hey Teblow fan, how'd Timmy do today? I mean, as bad as Sanchez was they put him in right?

Don't know if you noticed but Peyton played pretty good...

MOtorboat
09-30-2012, 06:27 PM
His velocity is not there. He's throwing 80 mph when he used to throw 90.
Maybe his arm will improve as the season goes on but tight now he doesn't have the juice.
He basically has to wind up to compensate which is slowing down his release and leading to him getting sacked and hurried. At Indy he was hardly ever sacked or hurried.

Good call.

Better get that billboard fired up for Osweiler.

Simple Jaded
09-30-2012, 07:21 PM
Btw, Aaron Rodgers changed/lengthened his delivery while he was clip-boarding for Favvvvvre, even if Tebowfan is right about Manning winding up to throw it's not as though he went Tim Tebow/Hideo Nomo.......

Ravage!!!
09-30-2012, 07:23 PM
His velocity is not there. He's throwing 80 mph when he used to throw 90.
Maybe his arm will improve as the season goes on but tight now he doesn't have the juice.
He basically has to wind up to compensate which is slowing down his release and leading to him getting sacked and hurried. At Indy he was hardly ever sacked or hurried.

Yeah, you are right on the money!! :laugh:

Timmy!
09-30-2012, 07:24 PM
Yay that Manning guy is ******* terrible.....

BroncoWave
09-30-2012, 07:54 PM
Simmons said the 7 point spread was way too high for Denver. I bet he avoids talking about Denver like the plague this week.

tomjonesrocks
09-30-2012, 09:13 PM
On the FNIM Halftime show during the Eagles/Giants game the topic was "It it time for Tebow time?"

I like TT. I really do. But I am not sad that circus is out of Denver.

Thnikkaman
09-30-2012, 09:21 PM
On the FNIM Halftime show during the Eagles/Giants game the topic was "It it time for Tebow time?"

I like TT. I really do. But I am not sad that circus is out of Denver.


So much this

Simple Jaded
09-30-2012, 09:45 PM
On the FNIM Halftime show during the Eagles/Giants game the topic was "It it time for Tebow time?"

I like TT. I really do. But I am not sad that circus is out of Denver.

That's Tebowmania. "Should they put in Tim Tebow because the QB that is playing like Tim Tebow?". They'd be talking about this even if Sanchez wasn't stinking it up......

Dean
10-01-2012, 07:09 AM
I sure don't miss the Tebow controversy and I would not ever prefer him to Peyton. He did make games suspenseful and interesting. Can he repeat that for the Jets? I doubt it but, IMO, they are going to have to try something soon.

TXBRONC
10-01-2012, 08:02 AM
Also if you can't throw the long ball then defensive can clog the middle of the field and blitz more.
This is why guys like Wuerfull and the Detmers struggled at the NFL level even though they had a lot of success in college.

You pulled that one out of your rear end didn't you? There isn't a quarterback in the NFL that throws a football 90 mph. Manning at his peak threw it 49 mph and now throw it at little over 47 mph so he's lost about 2 mph off of his throws. One of the embarrassing things a person can do is to try compare Manning to a Danny Wuerfull or Ty Detmer never did thing in the NFL. :rolleyes:

TXBRONC
10-01-2012, 08:08 AM
Simmons said the 7 point spread was way too high for Denver. I bet he avoids talking about Denver like the plague this week.

I doubt he avoids it BTB because we're playing the Patriots. I wouldn't doubt him trying to say that it's just because the Raiders have a terrible secondary that Manning did so well.

Chef Zambini
10-01-2012, 11:18 AM
I think it's blind allegence for anyone to say Manning is the same QB he was 2 years ago. It's pretty clear to me he is not 100%, but will keep inproving. That along with having new receivers, new coaches, new stadium, etc., it's just going to take several games for everyone to be on the same page and the strength in his arm to return to normal.Joe,
will you hand me my cane?
I want to take my dog for a walk.