Criticism of Denver's WRs

[cmc0605]

A recurring theme on here since the Houston loss has been never-ending criticism of Eric Decker's "drops," Thomas' unreliability/not dragging his feet, etc. There are some things I can criticize these guys for: Eric Decker's punt return "decision" (though this duty is not his usual job), his slide, etc. I'm not going to comment on those. However, for the people ranting and yelling about the drops and so forth, I'm sorry to be blunt, but you simply are not watching the games or understand it.

A "drop" is not an official stat on nfl.com, but many sites record this. Guys like Finley, Brandon Marshall, Witten, Victor Cruz, Wes Welker, Laurent Robinson, etc all have the same or more drops based on the sites I have looked at. Many catches are not easy and would be dropped by many NFL receivers. Needing to make an insane jump ball over a defenders head and landing without the ball is not a "drop." A safety jumping in front of a ball and deflecting a pass does not count as a "drop." The deflected ball that went to Dreesen in the end zone is not a "drop" but rather a pretty tough short bullet pass between defenders. Eric Decker had one real "drop" in Houston's game...the one immediately prior to him making a good 22 yard catch along the sideline in the second quarter. I welcome anyone to show me video evidence of another example, or to cite the play (I have Game Rewind so I can watch it). Maybe he had two...I'd be welcomed to be proven wrong. All I know is he is tied for #10 in receiving yards in the league.

Thomas did have some drop issues, but has already established himself as one of the more dominant receivers in the NFL. It happens to everyone, and as much as it's frustrating to see passes dropped, it happens to everyone and Denver is not exception. Terrell Owens had issues with this on slant routes, and Braylon Edwards had drop issues. Yet no one was complaining after they single-handedly can take over a game. Dragging your feet along the back of the end zone is not a trivial task. He was inches away from being two-feet in bounds and either thought he had those few inches or couldn't fully drag his feet. There's no evidence it had anything to do with some fundamental lack of effort or ability on his part. At least one commenters said "they have almost given up on DT." Sorry, but you just don't understand football, and I welcome you to point to another person that Denver could sign who would have a larger impact.

I realize people are frustrated but Eric Decker and Thomas are widely regarded (by people who know what they are talking about) as a rather legitimate WR duo, and a young one that can be here for a while. It is even more frustrating to see frustrated people blame non-issues. I fully suspect that within a few years they could be one of the best in the league with a good QB. Our losses most certainly did not have anything to do with these guys and their ability to perform. Much more fundamental has been the chemistry between players and the pre-snap/post-snap "reads" (e.g., responding to the defense's play with an appropriate counter-play). Our lack of talent is simply not the issue on offense, so please stop complaining if someone dropped a ball that wouldn't have changed the game anyway, and start cheering on the team that you are supposed to be a fan of.

[BroncoWave]

I don't care what an unofficial statsheet says. I know from watching with my own two eyes that Decker lets too many catchable balls go through his hands, and has for a couple of seasons now.

[shank]

I don't care what an unofficial statsheet says. I know from watching with my own two eyes that Decker lets too many catchable balls go through his hands, and has for a couple of seasons now.

every receiver on our roster not named brandon stokely does.

[BroncoWave]

every receiver on our roster not named brandon stokely does.

I agree, but at least Thomas makes enough big plays to offset it. Decker, not so much.

I'm never one to shout for us to bring in the shiny big-name FA, but if our WR play doesn't improve, I wouldn't be opposed to at least taking a sniff at Burress, TO, or Johnson. Couldn't hurt.

[cmc0605]

I agree, but at least Thomas makes enough big plays to offset it. Decker, not so much.

I'm never one to shout for us to bring in the shiny big-name FA, but if our WR play doesn't improve, I wouldn't be opposed to at least taking a sniff at Burress, TO, or Johnson. Couldn't hurt.

Yup, being tied for #11 in receiving yards is just junk. He hasn't made any good catches, like for 35 yards, or for 22 yards, for 26 yards, etc. We should certainly replace him with guys in their mid 30's and after injuries because he dropped a ball.

Glad our coaches/front office don't take this approach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBRKPoAPXEQ

[BroncoWave]

Yup, being tied for #11 in receiving yards is just junk. He hasn't made any good catches, like for 35 yards, or for 22 yards, for 26 yards, etc. We should certainly replace him with guys in their mid 30's and after injuries because he dropped a ball.

Where did I say replace? I said bring in for a sniff. It would be silly to get rid of Decker at this point, but I don't think extra competition would hurt.

And spare me the numbers. Plays like the deep ball against Atlanta he dropped in a big situation and his pvssy slide yesterday are more telling to me than empty numbers.

[Simple Jaded]

Why does it have to be that if you don't kiss every players' ass then you're not a fan?.......

[cmc0605]

Why does it have to be that if you don't kiss every players' ass then you're not a fan?.......

I have no problem with not liking a player, but I do have issues with people making up numbers and making up their own facts. Yes, I didn't like when Decker slid. Marvin Harrison used to do it too and he was one of the best in history. I used to call the Colts sissies too because they didn't like to take hits.he might have gotten two more yards if he lowered his shoulder. But I don't know Decker and I'm not aware of anyone asking him about it. Peyton had plenty of good things to say about him in the preseason, and I'd trust his judgment over angry fans who never met the guy.

None of this excuses people just making things up or trying to pretend that our guys are dropping a largely disproportionate amount of catchable balls (compared to anyone else in the league for example). The good thing about America is you have every right to think what you want, just like the people who think Tebow is our best option have the right to say that, or that evolution or human global warming are not real, or that we didn't land on the moon...rational people also have the right to say that you are simply wrong.

[Simple Jaded]

Eric, Eric, he's our man, if he can't do it no one can. Whoot, whoot.......

[smith49]

Who's making stuff up cmc??

[Dzone]

Its always amusing when someone comes on here to pontificate about how their Bronco loyalty and football knowledge is superior to other fans. ******* hilarious

[shank]

he might have gotten two more yards if he lowered his shoulder.


look at it again. he had stokely blocking and no one within a few yards of him. he left a LOT of potential yards on the field when he slid. if it was a brain fart (no reason he should have ever thought it was a good idea..) then that's one thing, if he did it to avoid getting tackled, then i have lost a ton of respect for decker.

[shank]

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/files/2012/09/Decker-slide-495x371.png

[cmc0605]

look at it again. he had stokely blocking and no one within a few yards of him. he left a LOT of potential yards on the field when he slid. if it was a brain fart (no reason he should have ever thought it was a good idea..) then that's one thing, if he did it to avoid getting tackled, then i have lost a ton of respect for decker.

Well let's wait for someone to ask him before we decide he has no heart to play. Maybe he started to slip. Maybe he lost track of the time. Maybe he wanted to trick the Houston defense into not touching him so that he could get up and run in for a free score. I have no idea, but I've seen nothing in the last few years to make me think he simply doesn't want to get hit. I'm not making excuses for him, but I don't know the situation, so this is why I just talked about all the phantom dropped passes in this thread.

[Simple Jaded]

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/files/2012/09/Decker-slide-495x371.png

How did you get it from your iPad to here?.......

[BroncoWave]

Well let's wait for someone to ask him before we decide he has no heart to play. Maybe he started to slip. Maybe he lost track of the time. Maybe he wanted to trick the Houston defense into not touching him so that he could get up and run in for a free score. I have no idea, but I've seen nothing in the last few years to make me think he simply doesn't want to get hit. I'm not making excuses for him, but I don't know the situation, so this is why I just talked about all the phantom dropped passes in this thread.

If that's the case he doesn't know the rules, which you clearly don't by insinuating this. When you slide you give yourself up and the play is over. You can't get back up.

[cmc0605]

If that's the case he doesn't know the rules, which you clearly don't by insinuating this. When you slide you give yourself up and the play is over. You can't get back up.

Indeed. I'm quite sure Decker was confused or didn't want to take a hit or was coached to slide. But I don't know. It didn't make a lot of sense, but "he is a wussy" or "doesn't have heart" etc etc. is not the only or even most obvious conclusion, which is why I'm not terribly interested in the play or rather wait until someone actually asks him.

[BroncoWave]

Indeed. I'm quite sure Decker was confused or didn't want to take a hit or was coached to slide. But I don't know. It didn't make a lot of sense, but "he is a wussy" or "doesn't have heart" etc etc. is not the only or even most obvious conclusion, which is why I'm not terribly interested in the play or rather wait until someone actually asks him.

John Fox said in his presser he wasn't coached to slide.

[Broncos Mtnman]

A recurring theme on here since the Houston loss has been never-ending criticism of Eric Decker's "drops," Thomas' unreliability/not dragging his feet, etc. There are some things I can criticize these guys for: Eric Decker's punt return "decision" (though this duty is not his usual job), his slide, etc. I'm not going to comment on those. However, for the people ranting and yelling about the drops and so forth, I'm sorry to be blunt, but you simply are not watching the games or understand it.

A "drop" is not an official stat on nfl.com, but many sites record this. Guys like Finley, Brandon Marshall, Witten, Victor Cruz, Wes Welker, Laurent Robinson, etc all have the same or more drops based on the sites I have looked at. Many catches are not easy and would be dropped by many NFL receivers. Needing to make an insane jump ball over a defenders head and landing without the ball is not a "drop." A safety jumping in front of a ball and deflecting a pass does not count as a "drop." The deflected ball that went to Dreesen in the end zone is not a "drop" but rather a pretty tough short bullet pass between defenders. Eric Decker had one real "drop" in Houston's game...the one immediately prior to him making a good 22 yard catch along the sideline in the second quarter. I welcome anyone to show me video evidence of another example, or to cite the play (I have Game Rewind so I can watch it). Maybe he had two...I'd be welcomed to be proven wrong. All I know is he is tied for #10 in receiving yards in the league.

Thomas did have some drop issues, but has already established himself as one of the more dominant receivers in the NFL. It happens to everyone, and as much as it's frustrating to see passes dropped, it happens to everyone and Denver is not exception. Terrell Owens had issues with this on slant routes, and Braylon Edwards had drop issues. Yet no one was complaining after they single-handedly can take over a game. Dragging your feet along the back of the end zone is not a trivial task. He was inches away from being two-feet in bounds and either thought he had those few inches or couldn't fully drag his feet. There's no evidence it had anything to do with some fundamental lack of effort or ability on his part. At least one commenters said "they have almost given up on DT." Sorry, but you just don't understand football, and I welcome you to point to another person that Denver could sign who would have a larger impact.

I realize people are frustrated but Eric Decker and Thomas are widely regarded (by people who know what they are talking about) as a rather legitimate WR duo, and a young one that can be here for a while. It is even more frustrating to see frustrated people blame non-issues. I fully suspect that within a few years they could be one of the best in the league with a good QB. Our losses most certainly did not have anything to do with these guys and their ability to perform. Much more fundamental has been the chemistry between players and the pre-snap/post-snap "reads" (e.g., responding to the defense's play with an appropriate counter-play). Our lack of talent is simply not the issue on offense, so please stop complaining if someone dropped a ball that wouldn't have changed the game anyway, and start cheering on the team that you are supposed to be a fan of.

Nothing worse than the "you don't understand the game" defense for taking a position. Calling others stupid doesn't make you right.

Ed McCaffrey - another person who doesn't understand the game - mentioned during the radio broadcast and again on 9News Sunday night that Decker and DT had several drops in the game.

Official stat or not, there have been too many dropped passes.

[shank]

How did you get it from your iPad to here?.......
slut magic.


Well let's wait for someone to ask him before we decide he has no heart to play. Maybe he started to slip. Maybe he lost track of the time. Maybe he wanted to trick the Houston defense into not touching him so that he could get up and run in for a free score. I have no idea, but I've seen nothing in the last few years to make me think he simply doesn't want to get hit. I'm not making excuses for him, but I don't know the situation, so this is why I just talked about all the phantom dropped passes in this thread.
there is no good explanation for that. if his concern was time, then his head was in the wrong quarter and it was still boneheaded. and if his concern was to conserve a few seconds, why did he show 0 regard for time (or yardage) when he fielded the punt in the 4th?

i'm not saying he's useless, i'm saying he made some really really dumb mistakes and drops (as did DT, why the shit didn't he just drag his toe?! shitty awareness) and deserves the criticism for it. he made some good plays, but missed on some plays he should have made, and made a few really big errors. those outweigh the good this time.

[Simple Jaded]

Slut magic? Is that expensive?.......

[shank]

Slut magic? Is that expensive?.......

it's not something you buy, it's something you... wake up with.

[Simple Jaded]

it's not something you buy, it's something you... wake up with.

Does slut magic make you stick to the sheets? Cause I'm pretty sure you can buy that.......

[shank]

you can pay money and end up with it (ask mo) but that doesn't mean you bought it.

[OrangeHoof]

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by BaileyTheBest http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1731318#post1731318)

I don't care what an unofficial statsheet says. I know from watching with my own two eyes that Decker lets too many catchable balls go through his hands, and has for a couple of seasons now.

every receiver on our roster not named brandon stokely does.

Funny. Last year, everyone believed it was the QB that was the problem. Now it's the WRs?

[BroncoWave]

Funny. Last year, everyone believed it was the QB that was the problem. Now it's the WRs?

I and several other posters were saying it was the WRs last season as well.

[broken12]

Tired of his baseball.slides hes not a qb

[shank]

Funny. Last year, everyone believed it was the QB that was the problem. Now it's the WRs?

i take offense at my quote being associated with your reply.

[catfish]

according to Profootballfocus.com, one of those websites that does chart drops, there are 82 wide receivers that have played 25% of offensive snaps eric decker ranks 67th on drop rate with a rate of 15.79% and DT ranks 73rd with a rate of 20%. the only 2 receivers with a positive grade for last game were Stokely and the TE Tamme

edit:

Stokely, Tamme and Dreeson catch everything thrown at them they are all tied for 1st with drop rate as none of them have dropped one yet

Ball and McGahee are 122nd and 125th out of 132 running backs with a 33% and 40% drop rate respectively

as far as overall drops Denver is tied for 4th with a 9.56% drop rate, which is 3.5% above league average, only reason it isn't worse is that stokely, tamme and dreeson have not had a single drop

[jhns]

I have watvhed recievers drop balls, not come back to balls, and not fight for balls. I even watched one slide...

This team has had receiver issues for a few years now. I have no clue what you are watching.

[slim]

Funny. Last year, everyone believed it was the QB that was the problem. Now it's the WRs?

Not everyone....just the loudest.

[ShooterJM]

I and several other posters were saying it was the WRs last season as well.

This is correct.

[Buff]

This slide has just been eating at me. I went from being a huge Decker fan to him being my least favorite player on the team overnight.

[shank]

This slide has just been eating at me. I went from being a huge Decker fan to him being my least favorite player on the team overnight.

has he still not had anyone with a mic in front of him yet? so that he can at least try to explain himself? or the punt return?

[Buff]

has he still not had anyone with a mic in front of him yet? so that he can at least try to explain himself? or the punt return?

Go the the sneakers slide thread. He was quoted, and it actually makes him look worse because he basically admits to sliding to avoid injury.

[Dzone]

Now that the WRs suck even with Manning, just think had we kept Tebow and got him some real talented WRs and TEs. We would be 3-0. Now we know why Tebow couldnt pass. He didnt have enough talent to throw to....




sarcasm alert

[Simple Jaded]

Sarcasm is supposed to be red.......

[Simple Jaded]

I and several other posters were saying it was the WRs last season as well.

Blaming the WR's for Tebow's ridiculous passing was, and still is, pathetic.......

[Jsteve01]

this hate for Decker is over ridiculous. Hate him for the drops, but but shit, the guy plays on both kick teams and has returned punts. You'll not find many pussies who are returners. He made a boneheaded play. For the love of pete how many threads do we need to have to discuss it?

[Buff]

this hate for Decker is over ridiculous. Hate him for the drops, but but shit, the guy plays on both kick teams and has returned punts. You'll not find many pussies who are returners. He made a boneheaded play. For the love of pete how many threads do we need to have to discuss it?

I admit I am going overboard, but I think it's because I like the guy so much and was so disappointed. I remember Rod Smith priding himself on never running out of bounds. Eddy Mac didn't wear pads and owned the middle of the field. I also think a big part of the outrage is that he had yards to gain - he shouldn't be hook sliding in the first place, but it was a premature hook slide, which is the worst kind.

[Hawgdriver]

I don't care what an unofficial statsheet says. I know from watching with my own two eyes that Decker lets too many catchable balls go through his hands, and has for a couple of seasons now.

This is what I was going to say. I'm fine with a good stats argument, but it's better to actually have seen each and every drop. Yeah, it's a gut thing, but that's often better than stripping all the important information like the circumstances of the drop.

I'm not going to panic. Jerry Rice had the dropsies there for a while as a rookie, he panned out ok. I'm much more concerned about the slide. That was just beyond me.

[MOtorboat]

OK, since the drops have cause Peyton Manning's completion percentage to drop from his career average of 64.9 to 60.0, then we can assume that Tebow's "real completion percentage" should be 52.2. That is still atrocious.

You can stop patting yourselves on the back for blaming wide receivers and not Tebow for sucking.

[Buff]

Mo, it just occurred to me, Knowshon will be out of the league before Tebow.

[MOtorboat]

Mo, it just occurred to me, Knowshon will be out of the league before Tebow.

If that happens, I'll own it. Tebow also has one less year accrued.

[Simple Jaded]

Mo, it just occurred to me, Knowshon will be out of the league before Tebow.

That's absolutely absurd when you think about it.......

[Chef Zambini]

Mo, it just occurred to me, Knowshon will be out of the league before Tebow.thats because this league will always need players capable of running the ball !

[catfish]

OK, since the drops have cause Peyton Manning's completion percentage to drop from his career average of 64.9 to 60.0, then we can assume that Tebow's "real completion percentage" should be 52.2. That is still atrocious.

You can stop patting yourselves on the back for blaming wide receivers and not Tebow for sucking.

52.2 is still bad for a veteran, but would put him in the running with a couple other young guys last year. Not saying he would have been good, but would have had a completion % that was in line with other young guys. That was always the argument, that he was progressing fairly normally for a young QB surrounded by limited talent, not that he was some elite passer right out the box. Spilt milk now

edit: assuming y/catch stayed pretty much constant the stat line at 52% would be

271 Attempts
141 completions
1934.5 yards
7.14 YPA

completion% would still have been bottom of the barrel, but the YPA would have moved from 29th to 17th the YPA shift being a result of 1) few passing attempts and 2) high Yards per catch due to using a chunk offense(which to some extent would lower comp% as well)

[MOtorboat]

52.2 is still bad for a veteran, but would put him in the running with a couple other young guys last year. Not saying he would have been good, but would have had a completion % that was in line with other young guys. That was always the argument, that he was progressing fairly normally for a young QB surrounded by limited talent, not that he was some elite passer right out the box. Spilt milk now

He wasn't progressing at all. He got worse.

[catfish]

He wasn't progressing at all. He got worse.

he is a young qb, they have bad games especially when put in situations where a D knows they need to pass and can pin its ears back and rush the QB. Manning has had some bad games, Oz will have some bad games. You got to give a new QB time to develop.

All the excuses you are hearing for Manning, bad o-line, bad receiver, new coach, new system, etc.etc all applied last year too. Think how much harder it would be for a guy in his 2nd year with 3 garbage time starts and little offseason time with the ones. People are saying Manning and the receivers still don't have timing quite right and they had all the offseason and all the preseason working together + he is a 10+ year veteran. Imagine if you dropped him in at week 5 with no time throwing to those guys at all

I am not saying Manning was a bad choice, he wasn't, or that getting rid of Tebow once they got Manning was a bad idea, after these 1st 3 weeks it is apparent why they needed to do so. I do however feel he wasn't given an adequate chance to develop his skills based on too high expectations of the Denver FO and Fanbase. I can't remember a single instance of a first round draft pick QB getting shipped out after going 8-8 in his first starts and taking his team to the playoffs. The only first round draft pick QB's that I recall getting shipped out were total headcases A LA Leaf and Russel. Like I said Manning was a good choice, but Tebow was not any worse than most of the 1-3 year guys were last year considering what he was dealing with

[Dzone]

Sarcasm is supposed to be red.......
Youre righT. I made my sarcasm Green for Tebows newest team

[gregbroncs]

I agree, but at least Thomas makes enough big plays to offset it. Decker, not so much.

I'm never one to shout for us to bring in the shiny big-name FA, but if our WR play doesn't improve, I wouldn't be opposed to at least taking a sniff at Burress, TO, or Johnson. Couldn't hurt.Complaining about drops and asking to sign TO in the same breath is absolutely hilarious. That guy has always had tons of drops. You think Decker drops a lot of passes? Have you even watched TO play? Ever?

[MOtorboat]

he is a young qb, they have bad games especially when put in situations where a D knows they need to pass and can pin its ears back and rush the QB. Manning has had some bad games, Oz will have some bad games. You got to give a new QB time to develop.

All the excuses you are hearing for Manning, bad o-line, bad receiver, new coach, new system, etc.etc all applied last year too. Think how much harder it would be for a guy in his 2nd year with 3 garbage time starts and little offseason time with the ones. People are saying Manning and the receivers still don't have timing quite right and they had all the offseason and all the preseason working together + he is a 10+ year veteran. Imagine if you dropped him in at week 5 with no time throwing to those guys at all

I am not saying Manning was a bad choice, he wasn't, or that getting rid of Tebow once they got Manning was a bad idea, after these 1st 3 weeks it is apparent why they needed to do so. I do however feel he wasn't given an adequate chance to develop his skills based on too high expectations of the Denver FO and Fanbase. I can't remember a single instance of a first round draft pick QB getting shipped out after going 8-8 in his first starts and taking his team to the playoffs. The only first round draft pick QB's that I recall getting shipped out were total headcases A LA Leaf and Russel. Like I said Manning was a good choice, but Tebow was not any worse than most of the 1-3 year guys were last year considering what he was dealing with

I can't think of instance where you had a quarterback who struggled to throw simple, wide open routes.

[catfish]

I can't think of instance where you had a quarterback who struggled to throw simple, wide open routes.

I can think of several

The only distance he struggled in was the 11-20 yard split, I don't know how many of those were "wide open" I see QB's miss wide open players every wek. Think possibly the overexamination of every pass is what led to the criticism?

[MOtorboat]

I can think of several

The only distance he struggled in was the 11-20 yard split, I don't know how many of those were "wide open" I see QB's miss wide open players every wek. Think possibly the overexamination of every pass is what led to the criticism?

No. Missing wide receivers consistently by two, three, four, five and even more yards on routes that every starter in the league can complete consistently is why he gets criticism.

He's terrible. It's really not debatable. That's why he's sitting behind a very mediocre quarterback in Mark Sanchez and that's why he was worth almost nil on the trade market.

[catfish]

No. Missing wide receivers consistently by two, three, four, five and even more yards on routes that every starter in the league can complete consistently is why he gets criticism.

He's terrible. It's really not debatable. That's why he's sitting behind a very mediocre quarterback in Mark Sanchez and that's why he was worth almost nil on the trade market.

you don't get extra credit for close on a miss and yet his splits are pretty comparable to someone like Sam Bradford or Colt McCoy, meaning he got it to the receivers about as well as they did, yet threw far less interceptions. Once again receivers are missed every week in the NFL, some embarrassingly so. But when every pass you throw is highlighted yours are the ones that make the news

[Dzone]

Our WRs are highly overrated, especially D Thomas. He will never be in the same class as Megatron, Fitz, Julio, etc. He has speed and strength, but he doesnt have the athleticism of those guys. His NON foot drag was evidence of that

[BroncoJoe]

Our WRs are highly overrated, especially D Thomas. He will never be in the same class as Megatron, Fitz, Julio, etc. He has speed and strength, but he doesnt have the athleticism of those guys. His NON foot drag was evidence of that

Did you forget the fantastic foot drag the previous week? Did you not see the defender pushing him out of bounds on the catch you're referencing?

Good grief.

[silkamilkamonico]

this argument has gone complete football stupid.

The whole idea for an organization is to win football games. It isn't to have the better QB statistically.

If Denver somehow finishes with a worse winning % with Manning and doesn't win more than 1 playoff game in his tenure, the entire front office is going to have egg all over itself for the decisions it has made.

Although, i think that's that's almost unthinkable and won't happen.

[silkamilkamonico]

Did you forget the fantastic foot drag the previous week? Did you not see the defender pushing him out of bounds on the catch you're referencing?

Good grief.

Our Wr's, outside of DThomas, are severly overrated, and I don't know what in the hell the front office was thinking when they put that group together the last couple years.

Makes me think they have no concept of evaluating NFL talent.

[Ravage!!!]

this argument has gone complete football stupid.

The whole idea for an organization is to win football games. It isn't to have the better QB statistically.

If Denver somehow finishes with a worse winning % with Manning and doesn't win more than 1 playoff game in his tenure, the entire front office is going to have egg all over itself for the decisions it has made.

Although, i think that's that's almost unthinkable and won't happen.

No it won't. Its a ridiculous thought to think this. NO organization in the NFL.. None.. zero.. ZILCH.. would NOT have made the same decision Denver made in trading away Tebow and signing Manning. It was, and IS, the absolutely RIGHT move no matter how the result is for THIS year. Period. There will be no "egg on the face" considering the other QB, was/is absolutely HORRENDOUS as a QB. He's not just bad, he's TERRIBLE.

So making the move to Manning was an absolute GREAT move by the Broncos, no matter if we win more games or not because it gives Denver the BEST CHANCE to win. Thats not having egg on the face.

[silkamilkamonico]

No it won't. Its a ridiculous thought to think this. NO organization in the NFL.. None.. zero.. ZILCH.. would NOT have made the same decision Denver made in trading away Tebow and signing Manning. It was, and IS, the absolutely RIGHT move no matter how the result is for THIS year. Period. There will be no "egg on the face" considering the other QB, was/is absolutely HORRENDOUS as a QB. He's not just bad, he's TERRIBLE.

So making the move to Manning was an absolute GREAT move by the Broncos, no matter if we win more games or not because it gives Denver the BEST CHANCE to win. Thats not having egg on the face.


Yes it will. It's ridiculous to think otherwise. If the above indeed happens, Elway would have tinkered with a team that went to the playoffs, won their division, and was one of the youngest offenses in the entire NFL, with a $100 million no success team.

[BroncoJoe]

Our Wr's, outside of DThomas, are severly overrated, and I don't know what in the hell the front office was thinking when they put that group together the last couple years.

Makes me think they have no concept of evaluating NFL talent.

I don't disagree. Not sure why many are picking on arguably the best receiver we have.

[Ravage!!!]

I th ink the reaction to the WRs is WAyyyyy overboard. DT needs to have more time with Manning and get in synch (that was obvious with the goal line audible where QB and WR were not on the same page). DT should have dragged his foot better in the endzone, but last week did an GREAT foot drag on the sideline, in the endzone. THis week, he just didn't think it was needed and made a mis-judgement. Happens to the best of them, believe it or not.

I've Watched Fitz drop easy passes! oh NO!!

I've watched Decker drop passes, and then turn around and catch one while having to slide to get down to the ball. The reactions are just so overblown.

Hey, I watched Tebow run pass routes this last week against the Dolphins (VERY VERY poorly).... I guess we could always bring him back and use as a TE that can't run routes instead of a QB that can't throw.

[Ravage!!!]

Yes it will. It's ridiculous to think otherwise. If the above indeed happens, Elway would have tinkered with a team that went to the playoffs, won their division, and was one of the youngest offenses in the entire NFL, with a $100 million no success team.

COmplete and total BS. NO ONE, except the idiots, would "blame" Elway for gettting rid of the worst QB in the NFL and getting Manning. NO ONE with any credibility whatsoever. ITs absolutely ABSURD to believe otherwise.

[silkamilkamonico]

I th ink the reaction to the WRs is WAyyyyy overboard. DT needs to have more time with Manning and get in synch (that was obvious with the goal line audible where QB and WR were not on the same page). DT should have dragged his foot better in the endzone, but last week did an GREAT foot drag on the sideline, in the endzone. THis week, he just didn't think it was needed and made a mis-judgement. Happens to the best of them, believe it or not.

I've Watched Fitz drop easy passes!

I've watched Decker drop passes, and then turn around and catch one while having to slide to get down to the ball. The reactions are just so overblown.

Hey, I watched Tebow run pass routes this last week against the Dolphins (VERY VERY poorly).... I guess we could always bring him back and use as a TE that can't run routes instead of a QB that can't throw.

The WR's job was to catch the ball. Period. They are not doing that they are dropping it. Last year, when WR's were acatchign the ball, people were blaming Tebow. Tebow didn't have that much "more time" to develop than Manning.

If they were blaming the QB last year, then they must do so this year. Or face the obvious reasons that our WR's just suck.

[Buff]

I think the criticism is deserved after last game. I'm not concerned for the long term, but the performance by the WRs on Sunday was unacceptable.

[silkamilkamonico]

COmplete and total BS. NO ONE, except the idiots, would "blame" Elway for gettting rid of the worst QB in the NFL and getting Manning. NO ONE with any credibility whatsoever. ITs absolutely ABSURD to believe otherwise.


No. You're opinion is irrelevant here.

[Ravage!!!]

No. You're opinion is irrelevant here.

Yeah. You have so much credibility. :lol: "Elway is going to look stupid for signing Manning over Tebow...derrrr" (its your, not you're)

[TXBRONC]

Blaming the WR's for Tebow's ridiculous passing was, and still is, pathetic.......

I agree with you in principal but at the same time the receivers did drop some easy passes.

[silkamilkamonico]

Yeah. You have so much credibility. :lol: "Elway is going to look stupid for signing Manning over Tebow...derrrr" (its your, not you're)

Where's your credibility?

LMAO

[TXBRONC]

Even though our receivers have struggled they're going to get figured out.

IIRC Rod Smith early in his career had problem holding onto the ball at times.

[Ravage!!!]

Where's your credibility?

LMAO

None. (LMAO is for teenage girls).... but name anyone with credibility that would actually back up your premise that signing Manning, over Tebow, was a mistake despite having a different season result this year. Just give me one that you believe would back you on this. Just one.

[silkamilkamonico]

None. (LMAO is for teenage girls).... but name anyone with credibility that would actually back up your premise that signing Manning, over Tebow, was a mistake despite having a different season result this year. Just give me one that you believe would back you on this. Just one.


So are smiling and laughin faces. Looks like we're one in the same.

Again, everyone knows anyone with half a brain would trade Tebow for Manning. Again, if we look into 3-5 years from now, and the only success our organization has comes from a year with the worst QB in the NFL , Tim Tebow, starting, you're going to have an entire Bronco fanbase, along with the rest of the NFL world, wondering just what in the hell John Elway, Pat Bowlen, and the rest of the FO is exactly trying to do in Denver.

Even Teenage girls can figure that one out.

[Ravage!!!]

So are smiling and laughin faces. Looks like we're one in the same.

Again, everyone knows anyone with half a brain would trade Tebow for Manning. Again, if we look into 3-5 years from now, and the only success our organization has comes from a year with the worst QB in the NFL , Tim Tebow, starting, you're going to have an entire Bronco fanbase, along with the rest of the NFL world, wondering just what in the hell John Elway, Pat Bowlen, and the rest of the FO is exactly trying to do in Denver.

Even Teenage girls can figure that one out.

You just contradicted yourself, and you don't even realize how ridiculous you sound. EVERYONE would trade Manning for Tebow, yet everyone would then wonder what Elway, Bowlen and the FO were trying to do???? :confused: How does that even make sense???

EVERYONE, including the teenage girls that you like to pretend you are, could see that Elway, Bowlen, and the FO were making the RIGHT moves to make this team better. Its pretty damn simple.

Parcells was quoted this week in regards to Dallas' record against the Bucs contributes to how to predict the upcoming game. "How the hell does past success have anything to do with playing future teams??" Same thing here. What the hell does going 8-8 with a crappy QB have to do with signing a much BETTER QB? You think anyone, ANYONE (other than the bullgators and catfish's of the world) would actually believe this team would be BETTER OFF with Tebow as our QB??? Seriously? THAT is what you are trying to say holds credibility??? You're making a fool of yourself.

[BroncoWave]

Blaming the WR's for Tebow's ridiculous passing was, and still is, pathetic.......

Logic isn't your strong suit is it? Blaming WRs for dropping passes isn't the same as blaming them for Tebow's bad passes. Yes he threw quite a few bad passes, but our WRs also dropped quite a few catchable ones. It was very popular to just blame Tebow for it last season, but that position is becoming harder and harder to take now.

[BroncoWave]

OK, since the drops have cause Peyton Manning's completion percentage to drop from his career average of 64.9 to 60.0, then we can assume that Tebow's "real completion percentage" should be 52.2. That is still atrocious.

You can stop patting yourselves on the back for blaming wide receivers and not Tebow for sucking.

Apparently logic isn't your strong suit either. Not a single person has said WR drops was the main reason for tebow's poor passing numbers. We had a poor passing QB AND bad WRs at catching the ball. We solved the QB problem, but our WRs still drop way too many passes.

[slim]

Yeah, MO. It has nothing to do with Tebow or Manning. That is not the point.

[BroncoWave]

Yeah, MO. It has nothing to do with Tebow or Manning. That is not the point.

Mo is incapable of separating Tebow from discussions on other players. You can't criticize any other player on the team without it being an excuse for Tebow apparently.

[Simple Jaded]

Here we go again. I don't know what it is about Tim Tebow that makes his fans so blind. There isn't a team in the league that wouldn't take Manning over Tebow.

The Broncos now have three QB's that are better NFL QB's than Tim Tebow, they had four in the preseason, these players can actually compete the necessary passes in NFL systems. Tim Tebow's team has to go back to 1950's to find an NFL system he can compete in. You wanna argue that they shoulda kept Tebow and built around his high school system but it's painfully obvious, at least to me anyway, that the Broncos wanted no part of that kind of offense.

Instead of building an offense with 11 round pegs you think Denver is better off building an offense of trying to fit 10 square pegs into round holes just to suit one ******* player.......that is obscenely stupid. Such is Tebowmania, you think it's your God given right to force the majority of those watching to suffer through watching the worst offense at the professional level just so you can watch you boy.

And don't give me that "I wanna win" bullshit, I shudder to think what this schedule would be like with Tebow instead of Peyton Manning......

[slim]

Mo is incapable of separating Tebow from discussions on other players. You can't criticize any other player on the team without it being an excuse for Tebow apparently.

I think, deep down, he blames Knowshon's lack of vision on Tebow and he has been quietly formulating a statistical analysis to prove it.

[MOtorboat]

I think, deep down, he blames Knowshon's lack of vision on Tebow and he has been quietly formulating a statistical analysis to prove it.

Just wait. Its going to be brilliant.

I noticed BTB is still obsessed with my position on Tebow...

[silkamilkamonico]

You just contradicted yourself, and you don't even realize how ridiculous you sound. EVERYONE would trade Manning for Tebow, yet everyone would then wonder what Elway, Bowlen and the FO were trying to do???? :confused: How does that even make sense???

Apparently you aren't paying attention to the part that i spoke with "organization winning". The organization had a terrible, worthless Qb who came in basically saved the entire season, winnig the division, and also a playoff game. Yes, he's worthless, and I agree he's terrible. The front office then decides he's the one that needs to replaced, and replaces him spending $100 million. Yes Manning is 10X the Qb Tebow even thinks of. If Denver doesn't build off it and win, "what in the hell are they trying to do". Plese don't change my argument, if you're arguing something different create your own.




EVERYONE, including the teenage girls that you like to pretend you are, could see that Elway, Bowlen, and the FO weremaking the RIGHT moves to make this team better. Its pretty damn simple.

lets do the happy dance, shall we fellow teenage girl Ravage?


Parcells was quoted this week in regards to Dallas' record against the Bucs contributes to how to predict the upcoming game. "How the hell does past success have anything to do with playing future teams??" Same thing here. What the hell does going 8-8 with a crappy QB have to do with signing a much BETTER QB? You think anyone, ANYONE (other than the bullgators and catfish's of the world) would actually believe this team would be BETTER OFF with Tebow as our QB??? Seriously? THAT is what you are trying to say holds credibility??? You're making a fool of yourself.

Reading comprehension has never been your strong suite. And quit turning my arguments into some sort of Qb vs Qb argument. This isn't QB vs QB. It's organization winning vs organization not winning. TAI

[BroncoWave]

Just wait. Its going to be brilliant.

I noticed BTB is still obsessed with my position on Tebow...

When you stop bringing him up every single time someone tries to blame other offensive players for their poor performances I'll stop harping on it.

[Ravage!!!]

Reading comprehension has never been your strong suite. And quit turning my arguments into some sort of Qb vs Qb argument. This isn't QB vs QB. It's organization winning vs organization not winning. TAI

No. I'm getting what you are saying ocmpletely. YOu said that if we don't win more games, and if we don't win a playoff game, that the organization will have "egg on its face"... and I'm saying, without a doubt, that is complete and total BS. No one is going to "wonder what the FO was doing" by signing Manning instead of Tebow... DESPITE the record. Period. Over and done. There would be no question as to what the FO was doing, there would be no wondering if they made the right decision, and there would be no (from those that actually know what they are talking about) one saying "wow how foolish Elway looks for signing Manning over Tebow." Which is what you are saying if you actually believe there would be "egg on the face" for not winning as many games.

I'm reading you very clear....trust me, you aren't talking above my head.... I'm saying, again, that no matter WHAT the final record of our team is at the end of THIS year, that we are a better team, and those that really know football would agree that THIS team, with Manning, is better than this team would have been with Tebow. THUS, there is no way that anyone will have "egg on their face" following a lucky 8-8 season.

[MOtorboat]

I think, deep down, he blames Knowshon's lack of vision on Tebow and he has been quietly formulating a statistical analysis to prove it.

Tebow's early season rushing carries last year took away opportunities for Moreno to get into a rhythm as a running back.

:coffee:

[slim]

Just wait. Its going to be brilliant.

I noticed BTB is still obsessed with my position on Tebow...

BTB is obsessed by some odd things at times....like white running backs, for example.

[slim]

Tebow's early season rushing carries last year took away opportunities for Moreno to get into a rhythm as a running back.

:coffee:

Tebow didn't have any early season rushing carries...because Tebow didn't give us the best chance to win :sad:

[silkamilkamonico]

No. I'm getting what you are saying ocmpletely. YOu said that if we don't win more games, and if we don't win a playoff game, that the organization will have "egg on its face"... and I'm saying, without a doubt, that is complete and total BS. No one is going to "wonder what the FO was doing" by signing Manning instead of Tebow... DESPITE the record. Period. Over and done. There would be no question as to what the FO was doing, there would be no wondering if they made the right decision, and there would be no (from those that actually know what they are talking about) one saying "wow how foolish Elway looks for signing Manning over Tebow." Which is what you are saying if you actually believe there would be "egg on the face" for not winning as many games.

I'm reading you very clear....trust me, you aren't talking above my head.... I'm saying, again, that no matter WHAT the final record of our team is at the end of THIS year, that we are a better team, and those that really know football would agree that THIS team, with Manning, is better than this team would have been with Tebow. THUS, there is no way that anyone will have "egg on their face" following a lucky 8-8 season.


"Egg on its face" for not winning. It isn't really a hard concept to understand, really. You're getting there.

[Simple Jaded]

I noticed that there are exactly zero discussions about how the Broncos will have egg on their face for replacing Andre' Goodman, even though he was nowhere near as incompetent as Tebow. The Broncos made tons of changes but the only one that could be egg on the face worthy is the most common sense move to make.......

[silkamilkamonico]

I noticed that there are exactly zero discussions about how the Broncos will have egg on their face for replacing Andre' Goodman, even though he was nowhere near as incompetent as Tebow. The Broncos made tons of changes but the only one that could be egg on the face worthy is the most common sense move to make.......

It's a hard argument. Tebow, for as bad as he was, was 11-5 in Denver, or whatever it was. I certainly didn't want him around regardless of what he did. But at what point, does Denver, go with growth and development with what they have and build on it, rather than change everything their truying to do year in and year out?

Just win, with whatever players you choose to be apart of your team. It's that simple.

[BroncoWave]

It's a hard argument. Tebow, for as bad as he was, was 11-5 in Denver, or whatever it was. I certainly didn't want him around regardless of what he did. But at what point, does Denver, go with growth and development with what they have and build on it, rather than change everything their truying to do year in and year out?

Just win, with whatever players you choose to be apart of your team. It's that simple.

I think pretty much everyone agreed that that way of winning would be hard to sustain though. How many times are you going to make an onside kick or have a RB fumble when running out the clock and things like that? You take out those two highly improbable wins, and we go 6-10 last year and no one bats an eye at us getting rid of Tebow for Manning. (although Manning might not come had we gone 6-10)

[Ravage!!!]

t
If Denver somehow finishes with a worse winning % with Manning and doesn't win more than 1 playoff game in his tenure, the entire front office is going to have egg all over itself for the decisions it has made.




... If the above indeed happens, Elway would have tinkered with a team that went to the playoffs, won their division, and was one of the youngest offenses in the entire NFL, with a $100 million no success team.


Again, if we look into 3-5 years from now, and the only success our organization has comes from a year with the worst QB in the NFL , Tim Tebow, starting, you're going to have an entire Bronco fanbase, along with the rest of the NFL world, wondering just what in the hell John Elway, Pat Bowlen, and the rest of the FO is exactly trying to do in Denver.



So what is it? Are you saying that the fans are going to be judging because we made the trade, or the fans are going to judge the FO by the winning record? Because if its going to judge the Manning trade based on the record and compare it to what we did with Tebow, is one thing. To judge the FO by our record going forward is another. If the second, then why even mention Manning vs Tebow at all? Doesn't make sense since every FO/GM is judged on their winning record.

So what you are saying, that if we don't win more games going forward, with Manning, that the FO is going to have egg on their face for letting Tebow go. Which is what I'm calling complete and total BS. If you are TRYING to say that if the our team doesn't improve over time, then the FO is going to be judged harshly...then no shit. But thats not what you are saying.

I'm saying, that no matter how the Manning "era" in Denver turns out, that no one that knows football would question WHY Elway "tinkered" with the Broncos with Manning and Tebow. The WHY it was "tinkered" with is a given. It's an understood. Everything else is a different story and discussion.

[Simple Jaded]

Tebow's early season rushing carries last year took away opportunities for Moreno to get into a rhythm as a running back.

:coffee:
You mean the limited amount opportunities Moreno gets before his annual injury? :D.......

[silkamilkamonico]

I think pretty much everyone agreed that that way of winning would be hard to sustain though. How many times are you going to make an onside kick or have a RB fumble when running out the clock and things like that? You take out those two highly improbable wins, and we go 6-10 last year and no one bats an eye at us getting rid of Tebow for Manning. (although Manning might not come had we gone 6-10)


I completely agree. I do agree with going after Manning and spending the money. But I also think, in my opinion, that Denver has to win.

I really like Elway n the FO, but it's going to look pretty bad if years down the road, the only QB to win under him during his reign in FO, is the NFL's worst QB who he couldn't wait to replace (simply because of positional play).

It may not be fair or right, but I think it's realilty.

I don't think it will go to that though, I think we go to the playoffs this year.

[silkamilkamonico]

So what is it? Are you saying that the fans are going to be judging because we made the trade, or the fans are going to judge the FO by the winning record? Because if its going to judge the Manning trade based on the record and compare it to what we did with Tebow, is one thing. To judge the FO by our record going forward is another. If the second, then why even mention Manning vs Tebow at all? Doesn't make sense since every FO/GM is judged on their winning record.

So what you are saying, that if we don't win more games going forward, with Manning, that the FO is going to have egg on their face for letting Tebow go. Which is what I'm calling complete and total BS. If you are TRYING to say that if the our team doesn't improve over time, then the FO is going to be judged harshly...then no shit. But thats not what you are saying.

I'm saying, that no matter how the Manning "era" in Denver turns out, that no one that knows football would question WHY Elway "tinkered" with the Broncos with Manning and Tebow. The WHY it was "tinkered" with is a given. It's an understood. Everything else is a different story and discussion.

Please Denver just win, so that Elway doesn't have to listen to the critics talk about how the only QB to win under him was the guy who he couldn't ship out fast enough. You know, the QB that certain fans say threw the ball in a manner where his WR's dropped it, and said how it would change with Manning and his quick release, along with the sacks, in which up until the point, hasn't changed one bit?!

Win. Ain't that hard.

[Simple Jaded]

It's a hard argument. Tebow, for as bad as he was, was 11-5 in Denver, or whatever it was. I certainly didn't want him around regardless of what he did. But at what point, does Denver, go with growth and development with what they have and build on it, rather than change everything their truying to do year in and year out?

Just win, with whatever players you choose to be apart of your team. It's that simple.

Just win what, exactly? The Broncos are trying to build a chamionship team within the 3-4 year window they have with the QB they chose to build around, they're not trying to build a traveling circus act. You're arguing about topping last years results with absolutely no mention of any other change in circumstances. Denver has to do better than they did with Tim Tebow.

Did the Titans have egg on their face for replacing Vince Young with Matt Hasselbeck? Nobody around the league made this argument, nobody even cared. VY was a far better QB than Tebow and Manning is far better than Hasselbeck but nobody even cared to make this argument. People make this argument because they're obsessed with Tebow, people are obsessed with Tim Tebow and for the life of me I can't understand why. If his name wasn't Tim Tebow he'd be out of the league and forgotten.......

[BroncoWave]

Silk, the only way Elway possibly gets any flak for that decision is if Tebow starts for the Jets and starts winning games for them. If he never wins another game as a starter though, Manning could totally flame out here and not a single person would criticize Elway for giving it a shot.

[CoachChaz]

Whether it's now or ten years from now...if there are people that think Elway made a bad decision replacing Tebow with Manning, then I really dont want to have a football conversation with them.

[BroncoJoe]

I think pretty much everyone agreed that that way of winning would be hard to sustain though. How many times are you going to make an onside kick or have a RB fumble when running out the clock and things like that? You take out those two highly improbable wins, and we go 6-10 last year and no one bats an eye at us getting rid of Tebow for Manning. (although Manning might not come had we gone 6-10)

Right.

And, if the sun exploded, we'd all be dead.

God I hate the "what-if" statements.

[silkamilkamonico]

Well I do think Elway being a HofF QB, played one of the most prestiegoues and scrutinized positions in all of sports, needs to find a QB who can help get the team to the playoffs and at least win a game or too. And I do think if it doesn't work out for him, it's going to be a little hard looking back and seeing that he shipped out the only QB to win a playoff game (that's a big if).

It isn't fair because QB's don't win or lose, but that is reality of the position.

[silkamilkamonico]

Whether it's now or ten years from now...if there are people that think Elway made a bad decision replacing Tebow with Manning, then I really dont want to have a football conversation with them.


Agreed, and I wish people would stop making this a Tebow vs Manning, and look at it for team vs team.

[Ravage!!!]

Please Denver just win, so that Elway doesn't have to listen to the critics talk about how the only QB to win under him was the guy who he couldn't ship out fast enough. You know, the QB that certain fans say threw the ball in a manner where his WR's dropped it, and said how it would change with Manning and his quick release, along with the sacks, in which up until the point, hasn't changed one bit?!

Win. Ain't that hard.

Again, you are talking in two different directions. I see what you are saying about Elway and the FO needing to win. The problem is that you keep mentioning Tebow and Manning, which brings the conversation back to another topic. If you are saying that Elway will "have egg on his face" for signing Manning over Tebow, then I absolutely think you are wrong. If you think that Elway will have "egg on his face" for signing Manning and not getting to the super Bowl... I think you are dead wrong. If you think Elway will "have egg on his face" for ANYTHING related to shipping Tebow and signing Manning, I think you are wrong.

If you are saying that Elway and Co. will get criticized for not building a winning franchise, then I think that is pretty much the expecting reaction in any professional sports organization. If this is the case, its not going to do with anything Tebow/Manning.

You MIGHT be saying that you hope Elway wins, so that we don't have to hear the criticisms of the idiots that would still believe Tebow would have done better. That I would understand.

[silkamilkamonico]

Again, you are talking in two different directions. I see what you are saying about Elway and the FO needing to win. The problem is that you keep mentioning Tebow and Manning, which brings the conversation back to another topic. If you are saying that Elway will "have egg on his face" for signing Manning over Tebow, then I absolutely think you are wrong. If you think that Elway will have "egg on his face" for signing Manning and not getting to the super Bowl... I think you are dead wrong. If you think Elway will "have egg on his face" for ANYTHING related to shipping Tebow and signing Manning, I think you are wrong.

If you are saying that Elway and Co. will get criticized for not building a winning franchise, then I think that is pretty much the expecting reaction in any professional sports organization. If this is the case, its not going to do with anything Tebow/Manning.

You MIGHT be saying that you hope Elway wins, so that we don't have to hear the criticisms of the idiots that would still believe Tebow would have done better. That I would understand.


Denver needs to win so Elway doesn't look bad and lose his job. It doesn't matter who he replaced Tebow with, it doesn't matter that he replaced Tebow at all. You're as bad as Mo and these other Tebow trolls that always has make everything about Tim Tebow. Dude's gone, get over it.

[Ravage!!!]

Denver needs to win so Elway doesn't look bad and lose his job. It doesn't matter who he replaced Tebow with, it doesn't matter that he replaced Tebow at all. You're as bad as Mo and these other Tebow trolls that always has make everything about Tim Tebow. Dude's gone, get over it.

Nuh uh. Nice try with the flip and run. YOU are the one that mentioned Tebow and Manning in YOUR argument. Don't try your BS backpedaling now and blame us for your junk.


t
If Denver somehow finishes with a worse winning % with Manning and doesn't win more than 1 playoff game in his tenure, the entire front office is going to have egg all over itself for the decisions it has made.




... If the above indeed happens, Elway would have tinkered with a team that went to the playoffs, won their division, and was one of the youngest offenses in the entire NFL, with a $100 million no success team.


Again, if we look into 3-5 years from now, and the only success our organization has comes from a year with the worst QB in the NFL , Tim Tebow, starting, you're going to have an entire Bronco fanbase, along with the rest of the NFL world, wondering just what in the hell John Elway, Pat Bowlen, and the rest of the FO is exactly trying to do in Denver.


Own it and don't try to pin your crap on us.

[Simple Jaded]

Denver needs to win so Elway doesn't look bad and lose his job. It doesn't matter who he replaced Tebow with, it doesn't matter that he replaced Tebow at all. You're as bad as Mo and these other Tebow trolls that always has make everything about Tim Tebow. Dude's gone, get over it.
It's not just us trolls that thinks you're specifically talking about Tim Tebow when you say Elway would have egg on his face. If Elway replaced an 9-9 Orton or Quinn as the starter you wouldn't be making this arguement, especially if he replaced them with Tim Tebow.

You are talking specifically about replacing Tim Tebow.......

[silkamilkamonico]

Nuh uh. Nice try with the flip and run. YOU are the one that mentioned Tebow and Manning in YOUR argument. Don't try your BS backpedaling now and blame us for your junk.



Own it and don't try to pin your crap on us.

Again, it doesn't matter who he replaced Tebow with, or that he even did. You're digigng deep and cherry picking an argument trying to create this as Manning vs Tebow. Get over it dude. It doesn't matter, who, it only matters they Elway wins in Denver.

You fail once again. Can you please tell me again how our WR's will not drop any passes for Manning, or how our oline won't give up any calls because Manning has a quick release, because the only issue with this organization has been Tebow? Or are you going to cherry pick your way out of that one as well?

:coffee:

[CoachChaz]

Tebow will be forgotten in 2 years. Count on it.

[silkamilkamonico]

It's not just us trolls that thinks you're specifically talking about Tim Tebow when you say Elway would have egg on his face. If Elway replaced an 9-9 Orton or Quinn as the starter you wouldn't be making this arguement, especially if he replaced them with Tim Tebow.

You are talking specifically about replacing Tim Tebow.......

Tim tebow sucks who wouldn't wanna replace him. Just goes to show, even more, how bad it would look for Elway if he looks back on this and the only QB to win under him was tebow.

[silkamilkamonico]

Tebow will be forgotten in 2 years. Count on it.


we can only hope. But then again, I thought that about cutler.

[catfish]

Tim tebow sucks who wouldn't wanna replace him. Just goes to show, even more, how bad it would look for Elway if he looks back on this and the only QB to win under him was tebow.

I think the only way it goes badly for Elway is if Manning either A) gets hurt, or B)retires in the next two years with no superbowl or deep playoff run, and Oz comes in and sucks.

If Maninng leaves early and Oz performs it gets played off as building for the future by Oz learning from Manning, if Manning stays 5 years and puts up decent numbers he will have been worth the effort. Even if Manning does nothing and Oz excels it will be a good thing for Elway and the future of the team. If Manning gets hurt or leaves early with nothing to show for it and Oz sucks it will be bad in the media

[Simple Jaded]

Tim tebow sucks who wouldn't wanna replace him. Just goes to show, even more, how bad it would look for Elway if he looks back on this and the only QB to win under him was tebow.

Wow. Try not to concern yourself with what completely irrational F'n idiots might say a decade from now.......

[CoachChaz]

we can only hope. But then again, I thought that about cutler.

I dont necessarily mena here...but in the NFL. He may stick around for awhile as a back-up here and there, but I dont ever see him getting a starting job for the long haul and I could see him retiring early to do God's work

[catfish]

Wow. Try not to concern yourself with what completely irrational F'n idiots might say a decade from now.......

I think hi point is if in the next 5 years this team hasn't made a playoff run the FO is going to be facing a very unhappy fanbase, not because Tebow is gone, but because the rebuild failed, can't say I disagree with him.

[Simple Jaded]

I think hi point is if in the next 5 years this team hasn't made a playoff run the FO is going to be facing a very unhappy fanbase, not because Tebow is gone, but because the rebuild failed, can't say I disagree with him.

The obvious problem there is the assumption that Tebow makes a damn bit of difference if the talent of Manning and/or Osweiler could not. There is also the obvious dynamic that the Broncos wanted no part of the system that you have to run for Tebow. They didn't want to run the offense they developed for Tebow.

The Tebow fanbase can suck a fart. Nobody would blame a fanbase that is unhappy about a failed rebuild, it's the fanbase that insists it'd be different with Tebow at QB.......

[catfish]

The obvious problem there is the assumption that Tebow makes a damn bit of difference if the talent of Manning and/or Osweiler could not. There is also the obvious dynamic that the Broncos wanted no part of the system that you have to run for Tebow. They didn't want to run the offense they developed for Tebow.

The Tebow fanbase can suck a fart. Nobody would blame a fanbase that is unhappy about a failed rebuild, it's the fanbase that insists it'd be different with Tebow at QB.......

If Manning produces nothing, and Oz busts there will be plenty of people that will say the team was better off playing Tebow this year, tanking and taking a high #1 round QB. Hindsight being 20/20 they will look at whoever excells out of the next draft and will say if only we hedn't gone after Manning we could have ______
and we could have taken ____in the second round instead of Oz

[Ravage!!!]

If Manning produces nothing, and Oz busts there will be plenty of people that will say the team was better off playing Tebow this year, tanking and taking a high #1 round QB. Hindsight being 20/20 they will look at whoever excells out of the next draft and will say if only we hedn't gone after Manning we could have ______
and we could have taken ____in the second round instead of Oz

Not real football people, though. THose would only be the ignorant fans that come on and say "gee, look who we COULD have drafted." Getting Manning made the team BETTER. Any real football fan (and not just Tebow fan) knows that every football coach, GM, and owner does what they can to make a team BETTER, and from there you do your best. Manning made this team BETTER when he was signed. Anyone that wants to look back and "believe" we would have been better off with a QB that can't throw the ball, would be foolish at best.

[Simple Jaded]

If Manning produces nothing, and Oz busts there will be plenty of people that will say the team was better off playing Tebow this year, tanking and taking a high #1 round QB. Hindsight being 20/20 they will look at whoever excells out of the next draft and will say if only we hedn't gone after Manning we could have ______
and we could have taken ____in the second round instead of Oz

Yeah I remember taking a lot of shit for wanting Suck for Luck, I guess it's ok to tank just as long as Tim Tebow is your QB.

Btw, hindsight my pimpled ass, had they went with Tebow those same people would be saying "give Tebow some time, it's practically his (7th) rookie season" or "give Tebow better WR's and OC's and he will reinvent the position" or "you only hate him cause he's (fill in the blank with any number of ridiculous bullshit arguments)". Their hindsight sucks now, I don't see it improving.......

[catfish]

Not real football people, though. THose would only be the ignorant fans that come on and say "gee, look who we COULD have drafted." Getting Manning made the team BETTER. Any real football fan (and not just Tebow fan) knows that every football coach, GM, and owner does what they can to make a team BETTER, and from there you do your best. Manning made this team BETTER when he was signed. Anyone that wants to look back and "believe" we would have been better off with a QB that can't throw the ball, would be foolish at best.

the argument will be that by Manning providing a few years of winning records you will have got less quality picks during a "rebuilding phase", that you don't want a high$$ free agent to take the team from shitty to average, you want to suck for 2 years reap the rewards of high picks and stock for the future. There are legitimate reasons not to bring Manning in, but it requires someone to forget that they can't tell the future, which based on experience a large majority of people are fully capable of doing. I give you the Orton situation as an example, ask anyone whether they should have sat Orton earlier or if Tebow should have started all year and 90% say yes, how the hell would you come to that decision not using hindsight? The same can be said for the Lloyd trade, if you know your team is going to go from 1-4 to in the playoffs do you still trade Lloyd, I would say no, but that assumes you can see that a highly unlikely set of circumstances will play out. Doesn't keep people from bitching about it though

[Simple Jaded]

So you're saying that the same people that get a boner at the thought that Tebow singlehandedly ruined Denver's chance at getting a QB this year will be a same people saying "we shoulda stuck with Tebow and reaped the benefits of high draft picks"? Sounds about right, to them anything is acceptable just as long as Tebow is their starting QB.......

[catfish]

So you're saying that the same people that get a boner at the thought that Tebow singlehandedly ruined Denver's chance at getting a QB this year will be a same people saying "we shoulda stuck with Tebow and reaped the benefits of high draft picks"? Sounds about right, to them anything is acceptable just as long as Tebow is their starting QB.......

the team made the playoffs, if you get to the playoffs you get at least a chance to make it to the superbowl, last year a 9-7 team won it all. if 5 years from now that is the only playoff appearance you have, but you still are going 7-9 to 9-7 and getting middle round picks, people are going to be questioning the plan. It has nothing to do with Tebow and everything to do with the future of the organization. If it makes you feel better there could be those asking why they didnt trade up and get a 1st round qb this year and let him play trial by fire and still get rid of Tebow

[catfish]

Not real football people, though. THose would only be the ignorant fans that come on and say "gee, look who we COULD have drafted." Getting Manning made the team BETTER. Any real football fan (and not just Tebow fan) knows that every football coach, GM, and owner does what they can to make a team BETTER, and from there you do your best. Manning made this team BETTER when he was signed. Anyone that wants to look back and "believe" we would have been better off with a QB that can't throw the ball, would be foolish at best.

you are right about the real football people, but what % of fans are more than casual fans? 20%?

[EMB6903]

People hate on Decker way too much on this forum.

He's an above average #2 wide receiver, right?

Are the expectations too high ?

[Dzone]

Of course there is going to be hating on Decker in this forum. He is highly overrated.

[Nomad]

People hate on Decker way too much on this forum.

He's an above average #2 wide receiver, right?

Are the expectations too high ?

Decker is the 'replacement ref' of the WOs.:lol:

[Simple Jaded]

the team made the playoffs, if you get to the playoffs you get at least a chance to make it to the superbowl, last year a 9-7 team won it all. if 5 years from now that is the only playoff appearance you have, but you still are going 7-9 to 9-7 and getting middle round picks, people are going to be questioning the plan. It has nothing to do with Tebow and everything to do with the future of the organization. If it makes you feel better there could be those asking why they didnt trade up and get a 1st round qb this year and let him play trial by fire and still get rid of Tebow

Why do ya'll keep insisting that it is not about Tim Tebow? Bullshit. If it were Orton or Quinn coming off the same season we wouldn't be having this conversation. Orton was coming off an 8-8 season in '09 and a career year in '10, he looked nowhere near as inept as Tebow, yet Broncos fans couldn't wait to get rid of him. "Anybody but Orton".

Bullshit, this is 100% about Tim Tebow. Ya'll want justification for giving up on Tebow, anything less than 9-7 and deep playoff run is "egg on the face" to the franchise. If this plan doesn't work it's no ordinary failed plan, it's egg on their face. That is so pretentiously dramatic. There are 31 failed plans every year but the only one that would be egg on the face is the plan that includes getting rid of Timothy Richard Tebow.

So. Completely. Full. Of. Shit.......

[iLands]

I moss GRob =[

[MOtorboat]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7481235/chris-brown-victor-cruz-new-york-giants

An interesting look at Victor Cruz and how the run and shoot principles are used by the Giants. Pay attention to the end of the article, and I think that's what they are asking Decker and Thomas to learn (and what Stokley already knows). It doesn't explain the drops, or excuse anything, but it explains the complexity of what they are asking these receivers to do vs. the simplicity of running go routes last year.

[Ravage!!!]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7481235/chris-brown-victor-cruz-new-york-giants

An interesting look at Victor Cruz and how the run and shoot principles are used by the Giants. Pay attention to the end of the article, and I think that's what they are asking Decker and Thomas to learn (and what Stokley already knows). It doesn't explain the drops, or excuse anything, but it explains the complexity of what they are asking these receivers to do vs. the simplicity of running go routes last year.

And why we sometimes will see misques between the QB and WR early... and why Manning is more comfortable with Stokely and Tamme right now. He's comfortable with where they are going to be on the reads. We saw one mis-communication between Manning and DT near the goalline last week. We'll see more of that, but as the season moves forward, those will become less and less frequent, and Manning will start feeling confident in everyone along the line.

Good Find, MO

[Hawgdriver]

When you think about it a bit more, Denver has an issue they need to address: are we a no-huddle team, or are we a set-piece team?

Maybe you say to me, 'What? They are both. What's your point?'

I respond, 'Yeah, but we need to accelerate this learning curve for Decker and DT. Without these two on the same page as Manning, we're not going to a Superbowl. Maybe not even the playoffs.

Here's why we need to focus on the no-huddle. First, it plays to Manning's and Denver's strengths--we have Sun Tzu of the pigskin under center, and we can wear down D-lines by keeping them from catching their breath and no subbing. Second, it would allow the squad to focus on precise execution of a limited selection of plays. One of the problems I see is a lack of precise execution of the route, especially by DT. More reps between these two would hopefully translate to precise gameday execution. Finally, it would allow these guys to get and stay in rhythm faster. There is a ponderous feel to the Denver offense when they huddle.'

So, that's my armchair coaching. As if I had a clue about what I say.

[Ravage!!!]

I don't think we want to be a No-Huddle 100% of the time. Need to go to the huddle, need to get everyone on page, need to set the audibles/reads by voice, and be sure the calls are correct. Jumping into the no-huddle too early in Atlanta wasn't a good plan.

[Superchop 7]

Worrying about drops is OK, but the far greater problem is timing.

[Hawgdriver]

I don't think we want to be a No-Huddle 100% of the time. Need to go to the huddle, need to get everyone on page, need to set the audibles/reads by voice, and be sure the calls are correct. Jumping into the no-huddle too early in Atlanta wasn't a good plan.

Right, but my point is that the focus should be on the no-huddle. I think trying to be great at both is asking too much of these WRs. I'd rather that they could execute the limited plays in the no-huddle to perfection and be passable in set-piece formations, than to be average to good at both.

After all, it seems we can dial up the points late in the game. I'd say if they could execute the limited no-huddle plays to near perfection, we'd have more of an overall weapon, huddle and no-huddle combined. FWIW.

[Ravage!!!]

you are right about the real football people, but what % of fans are more than casual fans? 20%?

Right. But the 80% of those that aren't more than casual fans, won't think it was a mistake by Denver unless Tebow can actually show he's able to beat out a lousy QB like Sanchez and Orton. He continues to look bad on the field, and continues to prove he isn't a threat in the redzone now that teams have seen what he's got. He still can't throw, and the NY fans aren't simply buying into the Tebow hype that was here in Denver, demanding that he start.

So the casual fan will simply judge this team on the merit of this team. Only the very few that are Tebow fans, will raise any stink about an obvious great move by Elway.

[MOtorboat]

Dees Nuts...

[Dirk]

Decker played like he wanted to prove he wasn't soft. Nice job by him.

DT....where do I start? I want to love the kid but he continues to make good/great plays and almost always does some boneheaded thing. Drops are one thing but that fumble was football follie worthy. :lol:

All in all, the receivers did a great job against the Raiders. :salute: