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View Full Version : What is the current state of the Broncos nation? Give your thoughts?



Tned
08-07-2009, 08:34 AM
Ok, I am Listening to AM 1510 this morning, and Les Shapiro and Jim Armstrong were saying that in 25 years of covering the Broncos, they have never seen as many people as angry about the Broncos or alienated from the team as they have seen this off season and so far in training camp.

They say that in a combined 50 years (25 each) of covering the Broncos, they have never seen this type of anger, feeling of the franchise spiraling down, and general lack of optimism by Broncos' fans, this early in the year.

As forum goers, we are seeing much the same as what Les and Jim are describing. Fans have become very polarized, arguably even more so than during Jake's time under center.

They talk about how many fans were angry that Shanahan was fired; then, more fans became angry with Cutler being traded; then, more fans became angry with McDaniels being hired. They also stated that while probably not deserved, McDaniels has been very polarizing for fans and has taken an awful lot of heat for someone that hasn't coached a game yet (paraphrasing).

So, think about it, during the last 25 years, the Broncos haven't had many losing seasons, and we just had a three game stretch of .500 ball, with one losing season. We have become used to good-to-great offensive teams, and there is concern that with Orton under center, that we might not have a great offensive team.

Combine that with the fact that 70-80% of the Broncos defensive starters have been replaced, not to mention many of their backups, and most fans assumed the only way this team wins this year is if the offense is at least as good (better in the red zone) than last year. Most assume that the defense can't become a 'great' defense overnight, so the offense will need to carry the team.

Broncos fans haven't experienced a true rebuilding period in decades, so are they disgruntled because they fear that is what we are facing?

What is the state of the Broncos' nation?

Is this the most pessimistic and angry fans have been for a quarter century?

Is that pessimism and anger justified?

How will fans react if we see a truly bad season, one that ends with 2-5 wins?

Mike
08-07-2009, 08:40 AM
First of all, :shot: Jim Armstong. The guy stinks.

I think they are wrong and think that the majority of Bronco fans are looking forward to the season and seeing what McD brings to the table. No doubt, there are those who aren't happy, but from the people that I have talked to here in CO, they are in the minority. Most are excited for the new blood.

This team desperately needed new blood and life. It may not be a great year, but hopefully it is the beginning of something great. I was not satisfied with maintaining mediocrity...so I am content to ride out the struggles and support the orange and blue.

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 08:40 AM
People, in general, fear change. Changes needed to be made. Fans were in a rut "hoping" this would be the year Shanny turns it around and it simply wasnt happening. A change was made and people couldnt handle it.

but watch us win a few games and all will be well.

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 08:42 AM
First of all, :shot: Jim Armstong. The guy stinks.

I think they are wrong and think that the majority of Bronco fans are looking forward to the season and seeing what McD brings to the table. No doubt, there are those who aren't happy, but from the people that I have talked to here in CO, they are in the minority. Most are excited for the new blood.

This team desperately needed new blood and life. It may not be a great year, but hopefully it is the beginning of something great. I was not satisfied with maintaining mediocrity...so I am content to ride out the struggles and support the orange and blue.

I'd have to agree. As usual, the ones that are pissy and "angry" are the ones that stand out because they make news. That doesnt make them the majority

Tned
08-07-2009, 08:46 AM
First of all, :shot: Jim Armstong. The guy stinks.

I think they are wrong and think that the majority of Bronco fans are looking forward to the season and seeing what McD brings to the table. No doubt, there are those who aren't happy, but from the people that I have talked to here in CO, they are in the minority. Most are excited for the new blood.

This team desperately needed new blood and life. It may not be a great year, but hopefully it is the beginning of something great. I was not satisfied with maintaining mediocrity...so I am content to ride out the struggles and support the orange and blue.

I don't disgree that the team need an infusion of new blood, and now were are one of the youngest teams in the league, with a young new head coach and could be working towards some good things down the road.

However, it's hard to argue that fans aren't angry when on the one hand 13,000 people show up at Invesco, but on the other it turns into a booing contest. There was a time you would rarely hear boos (at least not loud enough to hear on TV) if the team was getting blown out 30-6, but now we are getting it in a scrimmage?

Tned
08-07-2009, 08:48 AM
I'd have to agree. As usual, the ones that are pissy and "angry" are the ones that stand out because they make news. That doesnt make them the majority

There is at minimum irritation, and possibly anger, just because I posted a thread questioning whether the QB position is a concern. It is hard to argue that the fan base isn't divided and quick to anger right now, which one has to assume is really a reaction or because of the general state of unease about the team.

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 08:50 AM
There is at minimum irritation, and possibly anger, just because I posted a thread questioning whether the QB position is a concern. It is hard to argue that the fan base isn't divided and quick to anger right now, which one has to assume is really a reaction or because of the general state of unease about the team.

...and I attribute that to all the change. No one knows what to expect and that scares the hell out of people and makes them extrmely pessimistic and short-fused.

I mean seriously...who the hell boos a team at a F-ing intra-squad practice one week into Camp?!?!

Mike
08-07-2009, 08:50 AM
I don't disgree that the team need an infusion of new blood, and now were are one of the youngest teams in the league, with a young new head coach and could be working towards some good things down the road.

However, it's hard to argue that fans aren't angry when on the one hand 13,000 people show up at Invesco, but on the other it turns into a booing contest. There was a time you would rarely hear boos (at least not loud enough to hear on TV) if the team was getting blown out 30-6, but now we are getting it in a scrimmage?

New breed of fan here in Denver. ;)

It is troubling, I admit.

broncofaninfla
08-07-2009, 08:54 AM
Uncertainty breeds fear as does change, especially the amount of change Mcd has implemented. McD is unproven and a lot of his personnel additions will be questioned until the season starts and we see what we have. As fans we all want our team to win and dominate but realism says it's not going to happen this year. I'm hoping this is a “take two steps back to take ten forward” situation for the Denver Broncos.

LRtagger
08-07-2009, 09:01 AM
I don't disgree that the team need an infusion of new blood, and now were are one of the youngest teams in the league, with a young new head coach and could be working towards some good things down the road.

However, it's hard to argue that fans aren't angry when on the one hand 13,000 people show up at Invesco, but on the other it turns into a booing contest. There was a time you would rarely hear boos (at least not loud enough to hear on TV) if the team was getting blown out 30-6, but now we are getting it in a scrimmage?

The boos come from the people who are unhappy at the moment...just like you have a lot of people on these message boards HOPING THAT WE HAVE A LOSING SEASON just to prove their own point valid.

The sky is not falling...and even if some of these moves that have been made this offseason turn out to be bad decisions, the franchise will recover - we all know Mike made some terrible decisions in the past...however, most of the moves that people were complaining about before are now non-topics because so far they have proven to be good moves:

drafting Ayers
drafting Smith
bringing in Paxton
drafting Olsen
bringing in Bucky
drafting McKinley
bringing in Goodman
bringing in Davis
bringing in Gaffney

etc etc etc

These guys are all players and I suspect Orton will turn into a player as well...he will go through some growing pains, just as any QB does learning a new offense, but I am willing to bet the fans that boo'd him are the ones that are still bitter about losing Cutler. It's time to get over it and start looking to the future. We have some great new things to be excited about.

Unfortunately, people have already picked their sides...and the people that hate McDaniels and want Cutler back are going to take advantage of every opportunity they can get to say "I told you so"...which involves booing a couple bad throws in a simulation game 1 week into camp.

MOtorboat
08-07-2009, 09:02 AM
The sky has fallen.

Bronco nation is dead.

Tned
08-07-2009, 09:02 AM
...and I attribute that to all the change. No one knows what to expect and that scares the hell out of people and makes them extrmely pessimistic and short-fused.

I mean seriously...who the hell boos a team at a F-ing intra-squad practice one week into Camp?!?!

I don't disagree, but I still find it surprising that people are booing at a scrimmage.


New breed of fan here in Denver. ;)

It is troubling, I admit.

New and old. What I mean is that I remember listening to KOA (back when it was mostly a sports station) on my AM radio, with my 100' antenna strung across the backyard so I could pick it up clearly in Arkansas, and listening to fans saying they hoped the Broncos missed the '89 playoffs or lost in the first round, because they couldn't handle the embarrassment of another SB blowout (in hindsight, there was another SB blowout and the fans survived it).

A few years later, Elway contemplated retirement because of the scrutiny and 'smothering' effect of the fans and media.

So, the fans have changed, and I agree the younger fans (no offense meant, just a fact) are more fickle and quicker to change allegiance. This could be partially do to free agency and the rarity of players staying with a team for their career, or being the "Madden" generation, where they hop from team to team on the PS3 or Xbox, or maybe because it is so easy to follow out of town teams via the Internet or with NFL Network and NFL Sunday Ticket.

Hard to say, but the younger fans are more likely to just to a 'winning' team, than stick with their home team.

However, just look at the message boards and the state of discontent, it isn't just the new breed of fans, it is many fans that have followed the team for decades that are quick to anger or are very upset about the team.

Tned
08-07-2009, 09:04 AM
The sky has fallen.

Bronco nation is dead.

That was contructive.

I didn't say that. It's a discussion board, does it really hurt to 'discuss' topics, even if you or some other fans don't agree? Wouldn't life on a message board be boring if everyone just said, "yea, I agree..."

Food for thought.

dogfish
08-07-2009, 09:06 AM
People, in general, fear change. Changes needed to be made. Fans were in a rut "hoping" this would be the year Shanny turns it around and it simply wasnt happening. A change was made and people couldnt handle it.

but watch us win a few games and all will be well.


...and I attribute that to all the change. No one knows what to expect and that scares the hell out of people and makes them extrmely pessimistic and short-fused.

I mean seriously...who the hell boos a team at a F-ing intra-squad practice one week into Camp?!?!


“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”





http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5002/yodainswamp.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/yodainswamp.jpg/)

LRtagger
08-07-2009, 09:07 AM
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”


Dog...you are the man and I respect you a ton...but I have to point out the irony in your signature quote...maybe you should omit the last line of Champ's quote.

MOtorboat
08-07-2009, 09:09 AM
That was contructive.

I didn't say that. It's a discussion board, does it really hurt to 'discuss' topics, even if you or some other fans don't agree? Wouldn't life on a message board be boring if everyone just said, "yea, I agree..."

Food for thought.

Sorry. It was a joke. I guess it didn't come off very well.

The fact that this many people are angry about something like this and how divided everything seems just shows to me that Bronco Nation has never been stronger.

When something like this comes up (Cutler/Plummer being the last) fans come out of the woodworks, and you realize just how big of a following this team really has.

I guarantee that if 10,000 people could fit around the practice field in Denver, they would...because it looked like 10-15,000 were at that practice last night at Invesco.

The Broncos have one of the largest followings in the country, and this has shown that. I would put Denver behind Pittsburgh, Oakland and Dallas for number of followers.

Mike
08-07-2009, 09:15 AM
I don't disagree, but I still find it surprising that people are booing at a scrimmage.



New and old. What I mean is that I remember listening to KOA (back when it was mostly a sports station) on my AM radio, with my 100' antenna strung across the backyard so I could pick it up clearly in Arkansas, and listening to fans saying they hoped the Broncos missed the '89 playoffs or lost in the first round, because they couldn't handle the embarrassment of another SB blowout (in hindsight, there was another SB blowout and the fans survived it).

A few years later, Elway contemplated retirement because of the scrutiny and 'smothering' effect of the fans and media.

So, the fans have changed, and I agree the younger fans (no offense meant, just a fact) are more fickle and quicker to change allegiance. This could be partially do to free agency and the rarity of players staying with a team for their career, or being the "Madden" generation, where they hop from team to team on the PS3 or Xbox, or maybe because it is so easy to follow out of town teams via the Internet or with NFL Network and NFL Sunday Ticket.

Hard to say, but the younger fans are more likely to just to a 'winning' team, than stick with their home team.

However, just look at the message boards and the state of discontent, it isn't just the new breed of fans, it is many fans that have followed the team for decades that are quick to anger or are very upset about the team.

All true. Like Glanville said, NFL means Not For Long. Fans expect to win and win now in todays world...though it is interesting that they were happy to stay stagnant under Shanahan :confused:. Eh.

It has been a long, turbulent off-season for all of us. Seeing a rough draft of a product no doubt solidified the nay-sayers opinions and drew their ire. However, it is still a rough draft.

Like Coach and LR said, people fear change and respond to it badly. I think Bronco fans will come around once the season starts. There will be those that continue to be pissed (moreso because the Broncos will struggle this season) and make negative comments and boo, etc. And there will be those who take a more "wait and see" attitude knowing that the change was needed and that the struggle will be worth it...but in the end we will all still be hoping the best for the team.

Most teams go through this...Denver has been stable for a long time so we don't know what it is like.

Dreadnought
08-07-2009, 09:20 AM
...And there will be those who take a more "wait and see" attitude knowing that the change was needed and that the struggle will be worth it...but in the end we will all still be hoping the best for the team.


I'd put myself in this catagory, save that I thought shipping Bob Slowick, Nate Webster, Marlon McCree, and Marquand Manuel to Borneo or New Guinea was all the change we needed. We then changed stuff that didn't need changing IMO, and thats when I got pissed off.

It also doesn't much matter, because Mr. Bowlen never did ask for my opinion on these things, so I am stuck hoping that this all works out well with what we have already done.

dogfish
08-07-2009, 09:37 AM
Dog...you are the man and I respect you a ton...but I have to point out the irony in your signature quote...maybe you should omit the last line of Champ's quote.


nah, i think it would've been hypocritical to omit that part instead of putting up the whole quote. . . besides, champ HAS to move on, he's a player and he can't worry about things that are out of his control-- he needs to keep his head in the game. . . as a fan, i'm not under the same constraints. . .

i just put it up because i thought it was an interesting quote. . .

in any case, i'll be taking the whole thing down soon. . . but the topic isn't going away. . . hell, people around here still talk about jake plummer-- the aftermath of cutlergate will be felt for years. . .

anyways, back to topic-- i don't wanna hijack T's thread any more. . . .

frauschieze
08-07-2009, 10:03 AM
Think back to the draft a few months ago. I remember sitting on my couch, laptop at hand, and really realizing for the first time that this was a whole new ball game. I didn't know who we were going to draft. I couldn't make assumptions that I could before. Gone were the days of "We brought him in to take a look see, we won't be drafting him". Gone were the late round running backs.

And then we start the questionable trades. Next year's first for Alphonso, trading up into the end of the second for Richard Quinn. Why did we need another blocking tight end? All these questions started swirling and I didn't understand. I'm not sure I understand it all now.

For the casual fan (which is pretty much not anyone here), all they really saw was Cutlergate as covered by ESPN. All they've seen is Marshall wanting a trade. All they've seen are countless pundits saying we're at most a 5 win team. I can understand why the casual fan would be angry. None of those things would inspire confidence in the new regime and wouldn't have occurred in the old regime.

We are potentially facing the worst season record wise since Elway left. And there has been more drama packed into one offseason than I ever remember. I'm not surprised Broncos fans are ready to react.

BroncoTech
08-07-2009, 10:18 AM
Lamont Jordan = Bum
Kyle Orton = Bum
Dawk = Busted paw = Bum
Chris Simms= Bum
Doom = Bum
Moss = Bum
NT = Bum

Studs
Royal
Hillis
Bailey
Clady

I think McNugget has collected too many strays and we won't win a game this year. All these 'tweener' LB's that can't rush or drop back and a weak NT makes for a long year. Happy feet, burping the baby, too long to make reads it's all coming into focus now. We're doomed.

NightTrainLayne
08-07-2009, 10:22 AM
Lamont Jordan = Bum
Kyle Orton = Bum
Dawk = Busted paw = Bum
Chris Simms= Bum
Doom = Bum
Moss = Bum
NT = Bum

Studs
Royal
Hillis
Bailey
Clady

I think McNugget has collected too many strays and we won't win a game this year. All these 'tweener' LB's that can't rush or drop back and a weak NT makes for a long year. Happy feet, burping the baby, too long to make reads it's all coming into focus now. We're doomed.

I've offered several times around here to make a bet (sig bet) with anyone that we are more likely to win 9 or more games, than we are to win less than 4.

So far, nobody's taken me up on that, which is understandable because it would require a Broncos fan to root against their favorite team.

But no way do we go winless. Most likely we play something akin to .500 ball, but in won't be a sub .250 season.

Dreadnought
08-07-2009, 10:32 AM
I've offered several times around here to make a bet (sig bet) with anyone that we are more likely to win 9 or more games, than we are to win less than 4.

So far, nobody's taken me up on that, which is understandable because it would require a Broncos fan to root against their favorite team.

But no way do we go winless. Most likely we play something akin to .500 ball, but in won't be a sub .250 season.

Real simple NTL - I will never ever cast a bet that depends on the Broncos failing for me to win :D

I still say we are a 5-11 team next year, but thats a prediction, not a wish. I desperately want Kyle Orton to somehow channel his inner Johnny Unitas and be a Pro Bowl QB for a decade here

NightTrainLayne
08-07-2009, 10:36 AM
Real simple NTL - I will never ever cast a bet that depends on the Broncos failing for me to win :D

I still say we are a 5-11 team next year, but thats a prediction, not a wish. I desperately want Kyle Orton to somehow channel his inner Johnny Unitas and be a Pro Bowl QB for a decade here

I know. I don't really expect anyone to take me up on it, but I am very confident that we win several games.

As to the second paragraph. . .don't we all! :beer:

Slick
08-07-2009, 10:47 AM
I'll admit I'm pessimistic about the upcoming season but that's not because of the changes that were made...they were necessary IMO. I think the team needed to stop the "reload" mentality and realize that we truly needed to rebuild. We were a finesse team that always lost to the physical teams. Weird, because when Shanahan came in, we played physical. We beat down the Packers and won the Superbowl by simply wearing that team down. Shanahan lost that and never seemed to get it back for whatever reason.

I'm excited about the new coach and this crop of rookies. I don't expect much this season because of the last few years of watching this team, but I think it can change. I'll continue to support this team regardless.

As far as the booing. I think Mike is on point. It's not the fans from the old stadium that are booing, it's the new transplants that have moved in to Denver. The only person I've ever booed when I went to Bronco games was a referee.

rationalfan
08-07-2009, 10:47 AM
first, i hate it when media people combine their experience to make it sound they've covered something longer than they have. They don't have insight into 50 years of broncos history. they only have it for 25 years. pet peeve, i know.

next, the media won't stop this story on the "sad state of broncos fans" because it's an easy story that's slightly sensational and because mcdaniels' clap down of information doesn't allow for as many stories as it did before. so when the trough is empty, go with the sure thing.

plus, i've mentioned this before, don't underestimate the need of radio talk show hosts to fill talk time. they'll beat a horse death just to fill the talk time of an hour, which can distort the truth of a topic. i suspect that's the case here.

LRtagger
08-07-2009, 11:10 AM
Lamont Jordan = Bum
Kyle Orton = Bum
Dawk = Busted paw = Bum
Chris Simms= Bum
Doom = Bum
Moss = Bum
NT = Bum

Studs
Royal
Hillis
Bailey
Clady

I think McNugget has collected too many strays and we won't win a game this year. All these 'tweener' LB's that can't rush or drop back and a weak NT makes for a long year. Happy feet, burping the baby, too long to make reads it's all coming into focus now. We're doomed.


ROFLLLLLLLLLL

We had wayyyyy more bums last year.

Manuel = BUM
McCree = BUM
Young = BUM
Hall = BUM
Ramsey = BUM
Lowry = BUM
Webster = BUM
Winborn = BUM
Kouti = BUM
Robertson = BUM
Boss = BUM
Moss = BUM

And with Shanny still in charge all of these BUMs would still be on the roster. I will take the new roster over last years all day.

Northman
08-07-2009, 12:01 PM
If there are any Bronco fans who are not on board with the team than they can excuse themselves and jump on another bandwagon. **** them. I remember being out here in Maryland when we started to win SB's and all of a sudden i was seeing "Bronco fans" everywhere. It was sickening seeing the bandwagoners flocking to us. I guess now is just time to clean house and find out who the real fans are. If we suck for a few years so what, you take the good with the bad and in my lifetime as a fan ive seen plenty of bad.

Tned-Mobile
08-07-2009, 12:08 PM
I'm personally in the 8-8 camp, based on what I have seen so far. Until we see some pre-season, and really a few games of the regular season, we won't really know what kind of team we have.

However, while some don't agree, I think our schedule will be very tough and even if the team plays fairly well, we could lose a lot of games and wind up with mid to low single digit wins in the worst case.

Reidman
08-07-2009, 12:17 PM
Well think about it....we just ushered out the last remaining piece of our SB era in Shannahan. I think a lot of us still live in the past (admittedly I do sometimes) I was excited about the guys we had last season despite many flaws, and now Cutler is gone and Marshall is disgruntled. But oh well, life goes on, Broncos football goes on. We still have lots of talent on this team that I think gets overlooked.

I think it's absurd for "fans" to quit on this team or leave it for another team based on front office decisions and new players. You can have your opinions and love/hate relationships with certain players, but will you still continue to support and root for your team..?

One season is all it will take to put an end to all this drama anyway, regardless of the outcome...

Tned
08-07-2009, 12:36 PM
Well think about it....we just ushered out the last remaining piece of our SB era in Shannahan. I think a lot of us still live in the past (admittedly I do sometimes) I was excited about the guys we had last season despite many flaws, and now Cutler is gone and Marshall is disgruntled. But oh well, life goes on, Broncos football goes on. We still have lots of talent on this team that I think gets overlooked.

I think it's absurd for "fans" to quit on this team or leave it for another team based on front office decisions and new players. You can have your opinions and love/hate relationships with certain players, but will you still continue to support and root for your team..?

One season is all it will take to put an end to all this drama anyway, regardless of the outcome...

At the risk of spiraling this into a "real fan" debate, anyone that hops ship from being a Broncos' fan over this offseasons moves, was not a 'real' Broncos' fan. You either are or aren't, you can't be a fan when the team is winning, and then become a Pat's fan or Giant's fan when the Broncos go through a dry spell.

Now, some fans become discouraged and become less active, whether going to games, buying stuff, posting on message boards. That's different, that's just what it is, being discouraged and less enthused, but they remain fans, they don't become a fan of another team, and then come back when the Broncos start winning again.

silkamilkamonico
08-07-2009, 12:43 PM
I keep doing 180's with this team.

I was shocked and concerned, but the more I thought about how underachieving Shanahan has been with Denver the last 3 years (last 8 really with the 1 exception that ended in a blowout lo0ss at home), the more excited I was that Shanahan was finally gone. Who cares about being competitive for the regular season. How about try building a perenially competitive team year in and year out. It was quite obvious Shanahan couldn't get that done.

I pulled out the w.t.f. card when everything went down with Cutler, but the when Cutler showed how much of a backbokeless pansy wearing a skirt and carrying on with some sense of entitlement, i was glad as hell when we finally rid ourselves of "the Franchise Player that never wins".

I have been feeling good about this team and where it's going, but hearing all the negative thoughts about the scrimmage has me seriously contemplating w.t.f. I expected it to have points of struggle, but it sounds like that's all it was. that's not a good sign.

The scrimmage was a great thing for the team to see where they're at. now we'll see just how good of a mind McDaniels really is, because he has a hell of a lot of coaching to do, and wrinkles to iron out.

Tned
08-07-2009, 12:48 PM
On a side, but related, note. From what I have heard of the Broncos' camp, I am encouraged. While someone like Wiegman is probably pissed when running a lap after he and Simms fail to cleanly get a ball snapped, I have to believe the agressive, contact fileld, drill-laden camp is going to pay off in terms of a more fundamentally sound team.

I mentioned it last week, what I am reading about these tackling drills has me excited, because how often did we see Gold or another LB launch themselves at a runner, only to bounce off or slide off the runner who kept on going. The Broncos had not been playing fundamentally sound football (especially on defense) for quite a while. I am hoping that will change, as well as all this contact making them more of a smash mouth team.

Hawgdriver
08-07-2009, 12:52 PM
The boos I recall were during shanked punts, lame-O passes, and missed field goals. I am glad the players got booed, it's excellent feedback. In some ways it's even more personal than a game situation. There were a lot of cheers, too.

But I agree--who boos anyway? It was a free trip to the stadium, after all. Game-type atmosphere with booze and bleachers but little drama. Anyone and everyone that lives near the stadium can come on in. Not too surprising to hear some boos. Besides, as McDaniels said--you're going to get boos when you perform poorly. That is what happened.

I reject the commentary from Armstrong et al. His thesis is that Bronco Nation lacks confidence in the direction of the organization? He didn't ask me.

Maybe he is the one who lacks confidence, and he is putting words into our mouths. I don't mind if he's skeptical of the new Broncos, but he shouldn't project his own hesitation over the entire Bronco Nation.

Tned
08-07-2009, 12:57 PM
I reject the commentary from Armstrong et al. His thesis is that Bronco Nation lacks confidence in the direction of the organization? He didn't ask me.

Maybe he is the one who lacks confidence, and he is putting words into our mouths. I don't mind if he's skeptical of the new Broncos, but he shouldn't project his own hesitation over the entire Bronco Nation.

He didn't say all, he said there is more anger and concern about the Broncos direction than in recent decades.

Just take this forum, or other Broncos' boards, and you will see deep divisions between pro and anti McDaniels posters. I think that is essentially what he is talking about. You have some people that really believe Bowlen and McDaniels are ruining the franchise, while you have others that hated Shanahan and Cutler (in many cases because they were Jake fans, but not all) so much, that they will accept NO criticism of McDaniels or Bowlen, and then you have a lot of fans that fall somewhere along a spectrum between those extremes.

I do think it's fair to say, based on people posting on the forums, that there are far more people upset or concerned with the direction of the Broncos than in years past.

broncofanatic1987
08-07-2009, 01:00 PM
I think it only seems like most fans are pessimistic and feeling alienated because the naysayers do a lot of complaining.

It's more likely that most fans understand that the team still has a chance to succeed despite some of the unexpected changes this offseason and will reserve judgment until the season starts and there's a product on the field.

Hawgdriver
08-07-2009, 01:02 PM
He didn't say all, he said


in 25 years of covering the Broncos, they have never seen as many people as angry about the Broncos or alienated from the team as they have seen this off season and so far in training camp.

...they have never seen this type of anger, feeling of the franchise spiraling down, and general lack of optimism by Broncos' fans, this early in the year.

What did I miss?

Tned
08-07-2009, 01:18 PM
What did I miss?

He didn't say "all fans" or the entire Broncos nation is upset and angry, just more than they have seen in recent years. That typically, this time of year most Broncos fans start out being fairly optimistic, and only if the team strugles early, does the tide start to turn.

This year, before pre-season has even begun, you have a lot of people questioning not only how good the team will be, but the moves that Bowlen and McDaniels have made.

Based on their comments, I posted the question of what is the "state of the Broncos' nation?"

Hawgdriver
08-07-2009, 01:31 PM
general lack of optimism by Broncos' fans

He stated there is a general lack of optimism by Bronco's fans. I say he's projecting his own feelings. There is no general lack of optimism. The divisions may be sharper now than before, but I disagree that "Broncos' fans" generally lack optimism.

The wording suggests a projection of the speaker's own personal feelings in my opinion.

BroncoNut
08-07-2009, 01:37 PM
I've been hearing some positives on the defense lately. I don't know if it's camp or what, but this sure is a change from what I was hearing after the draft. I'm pretty excited about the running game. I think we will be able to chew up alot of clock

Tned
08-07-2009, 02:01 PM
He stated there is a general lack of optimism by Bronco's fans. I say he's projecting his own feelings. There is no general lack of optimism. The divisions may be sharper now than before, but I disagree that "Broncos' fans" generally lack optimism.


I was paraphrasing what they said, as a means to start the conversation about the "state of the Broncos' nation". The reason I didn't "" their words, is that I typed it after the fact and don't remember their exact quotes.

A word here or there might not be exactly what they stated.

Hawgdriver
08-07-2009, 02:03 PM
I was paraphrasing what they said, as a means to start the conversation about the "state of the Broncos' nation". The reason I didn't "" their words, is that I typed it after the fact and don't remember their exact quotes.

A word here or there might not be exactly what they stated.

I gotcha T. Pointless quibbling anyway...:beer:

Tned
08-07-2009, 02:11 PM
I gotcha T. Pointless quibbling anyway...:beer:

And I will take responsibility for possibly misepresenting their views in terms of exactly what they said, but I believe my post represented the general sentiment they were trying to convey, about how different this offseason and beginning of training camp has been compared to recent history.

Traveler
08-07-2009, 02:23 PM
Having followed this team for almost 40 years, this offseason has been "interesting" to say the least.

Anyone that lived through the early years of the franchise, when the Raiders & KC dominated the division, remain pretty even-keeled because we know what it was like to consistently watch the team struggle to become a winner while losing more often than not. Losing is putting it kindly. Blown out would be more fitting.


Fast forward to the present. Most fans now are younger more closely relate to the Reeves, Elway, Shanahan years. The winning years of the franchise. Never having to rebuild, just reload. Some fans have become somewhat spoiled and were willing to live with the mediocrity of the last ten+ or so years after we've won SB's 32 & 33.

The WCO, ZBS, bend but don't break defense, and head scratching drafts were all things we've been accustomed to for quite some time. While the product on the field was average at best, there was a relative comfort that things would be okay pretty soon.

We supposedly found a franchise QB that reminded us the the glory days when #7 struck fear in opposing defenses. The entire playbook could be used again. The deep ball was back.

But a funny thing happened in Bronco Nation. We complained about it, but never really acknowleged or grasped that while the offense resembled the offense of old, the rest of the team was in shambles. Teams around the league had adjusted and learned to the defend the WCO. Shanahan's play calling became stale. Players no longer bought into the same old speeches. The game and players changed and Shanahan didn't adapt.

Then boom! The first of many changes took place, catching everyone by surprise. That warm comforting Broncos pillow known as Mike Shanahan was fired. That seemed to divide many fans. On one side were those that understood that Mike's time here had run it's course. The days of putting a yearly band-aid on a broken dam were over.

The other side included those that thought we only need to fix the defense & special teams. Do that and we were back amoungst the NFL elite. Why bother an offense that wasn't broken? These fans still held out hope because they thought Pat Bowlen would see what they saw. Surely he would hire a defensive minded coach.

Then boom! Unexpected change number two. Bowlen shocks the world and hires a young, offensive prodigy from the Belichick tree. What the hell?! The newbie then commences to mess with things fans thought were fine. The so-called franchise QB and new coach didn't hit it off. So much so that the new wunderkind coach spoke of the possibility of bringing in one of his guys to run the new offense. That offended both fans and our Pro-Bowl QB. He also purged the team of marginally talented, stop gap players. Something that was long overdue.

More change that made fans uncomfortable, if not downright worried. Then the unthinkable happens. At the behest of a spurned and angry owner, our so-called franchise QB is traded. Fans had already taken sides concerned by the immense and almost mind numbing changes that had taken place with our favorite NFL team.

We all know the rest. Bronco Nation is divided and concerned. Some have yet to come to terms that we are finally faced with the term REBUILDING. A word the former regime avoided like the plague. Each side has their particular view of how things have changed. And both seem determined to argue and show their pleasure/displeasure at the events that unfolded this offseason. Heels are dug in!

I wrote this book ;)from an old head point of view (admittedly slanted) to say that things aren't as bad as they seem. Are there concerns? Of course. Could we have a losing season because of all these changes? That's a possibility too.

So let the boo birds show their displeasure. They have a right to do so.
For those like me who are just waiting to see the new version of our favorite team, both now and in the future, stay calm and enjoy the ride.

OrangeHoof
08-07-2009, 02:30 PM
but watch us win a few games in 2011 and all will be well.

fify

Tned
08-07-2009, 02:32 PM
Having followed this team for almost 40 years, this offseason has been "interesting" to say the least.

Anyone that lived through the early years of the franchise, when the Raiders & KC dominated the division, remain pretty even-keeled because we know what it was like to consistently watch the team struggle to become a winner while losing more often than not. Losing is putting it kindly. Blown out would be more fitting.


Fast forward to the present. Most fans now are younger more closely relate to the Reeves, Elway, Shanahan years. The winning years of the franchise. Never having to rebuild, just reload. Some fans have become somewhat spoiled and were willing to live with the mediocrity of the last ten+ or so years after we've won SB's 32 & 33.

The WCO, ZBS, bend but don't break defense, and head scratching drafts were all things we've been accustomed to for quite some time. While the product on the field was average at best, there was a relative comfort that things would be okay pretty soon.

We supposedly found a franchise QB that reminded us the the glory days when #7 struck fear in opposing defenses. The entire playbook could be used again. The deep ball was back.

But a funny thing happened in Bronco Nation. We complained about it, but never really acknowleged or grasped that while the offense resembled the offense of old, the rest of the team was in shambles. Teams around the league had adjusted and learned to the defend the WCO. Shanahan's play calling became stale. Players no longer bought into the same old speeches. The game and players changed and Shanahan didn't adapt.

Then boom! The first of many changes took place, catching everyone by surprise. That warm comforting Broncos pillow known as Mike Shanahan was fired. That seemed to divide many fans. On one side were those that understood that Mike's time here had run it's course. The days of putting a yearly band-aid on a broken dam were over.

The other side included those that thought we only need to fix the defense & special teams. Do that and we were back amoungst the NFL elite. Why bother an offense that wasn't broken? These fans still held out hope because they thought Pat Bowlen would see what they saw. Surely he would hire a defensive minded coach.

Then boom! Unexpected change number two. Bowlen shocks the world and hires a young, offensive prodigy from the Belichick tree. What the hell?! The newbie then commences to mess with things fans thought were fine. The so-called franchise QB and new coach didn't hit it off. So much so that the new wunderkind coach spoke of the possibility of bringing in one of his guys to run the new offense. That offended both fans and our Pro-Bowl QB. He also purged the team of marginally talented, stop gap players. Something that was long overdue.

More change that made fans uncomfortable, if not downright worried. Then the unthinkable happens. At the behest of a spurned and angry owner, our so-called franchise QB is traded. Fans had already taken sides concerned by the immense and almost mind numbing changes that had taken place with our favorite NFL team.

We all know the rest. Bronco Nation is divided and concerned. Some have yet to come to terms that we are finally faced with the term REBUILDING. A word the former regime avoided like the plague. Each side has their particular view of how things have changed. And both seem determined to argue and show their pleasure/displeasure at the events that unfolded this offseason. Heels are dug in!

I wrote this book ;)from an old head point of view (admittedly slanted) to say that things aren't as bad as they seem. Are there concerns? Of course. Could we have a losing season because of all these changes? That's a possibility too.

So let the boo birds show their displeasure. They have a right to do so.
For those like me who are just waiting to see the new version of our favorite team, both now and in the future, stay calm and enjoy the ride.

Very well said.

I'm not a new fan, but I am also not an old fan. Starting to follow Elway, and as a result the Broncos, in '85, I am one of those spoiled fans, and have written as much here and on Mania. We became used to winning, with only a minor setback in the early '90s.

Kudos for the post.

topscribe
08-07-2009, 02:36 PM
Very well said.

I'm not a new fan, but I am also not an old fan. Starting to follow Elway, and as a result the Broncos, in '85, I am one of those spoiled fans, and have written as much here and on Mania. We became used to winning, with only a minor setback in the early '90s.

Kudos for the post.

You Hi-5ing your own posts now? :laugh:

Anyway, Traveler's 40 years as a fan is nothing. I've been with them for nearly 50 years now, and I . . .







. . . what was I just saying? :confused:



-----

OrangeHoof
08-07-2009, 02:47 PM
I followed the Broncos through a lot of lean years in the 1960s and 1970s.

I'd say much of the present fan base is spoiled beyond belief and won't handle a losing team all that well. I don't *hope* for a bad year but this looks like an expansion team to me. The front seven on defense looks on paper like an expansion team's d. The quarterback looks like the sort of journeyman that kicks around the league hoping to last long enough to secure his pension.

Sure, we have some good individual pieces but I'm still sticking to 4-6 wins until I start seeing what this team can do on the field. I'm not optimistic.

In 2-3 years, this team may be over the hangover and start re-asserting themselves but expecting success just because we now have a Belichick protege (with no head coaching experience) makes as little sense as when Iowa State was doing cartwheels about hiring Texas' defensive coordinator as their head coach. At the end of the day, you're still Iowa State. And you still suck.

At the end of the day, the Broncos still have the personnel level of an expansion team, one that's going to have to gel on both offense and defense under an entirely new system. That's not going to be very pretty. Trust me on this.

broncophan
08-07-2009, 02:49 PM
Well.....I have been a broncofan for 32 years......and I don't feel good at all about this upcoming season......although I have said the same since we drafted kid Cutler.....although I thought this would be the year that the broncos would return to the playoffs......with Cutler.

Change is tough......esp. all the changes this team has had this offseason....

Looking at the schedule......I will hope for the best.......but I say we take our lumps this year........but look out in 2010/2011.....

GO BRONCOS......

I would say bronco nation is def not used to all the changes etc.......and for me personally.....it's hard to imagine the broncos being "just like most of the other nfl franchises"............when I have always considered them a top 5 nfl franchise....

NameUsedBefore
08-07-2009, 03:03 PM
I think McDaniels will be gone in three years, maybe even before that if he does really bad.

Neither Orton or Simms will be on the team in two years.

In effect, I think we're just pissing away time at the moment. Hopefully we can get a real defensive-minded coach in the near-future like we should have after firing Shanahan instead of getting an egotistical youngster hailing from a long line of failed Belichick apprentices.

frauschieze
08-07-2009, 03:05 PM
He stated there is a general lack of optimism by Bronco's fans. I say he's projecting his own feelings. There is no general lack of optimism. The divisions may be sharper now than before, but I disagree that "Broncos' fans" generally lack optimism.

The wording suggests a projection of the speaker's own personal feelings in my opinion.

You could be correct. But I keep coming back to the casual fans. We here dig deep enough into everything, dissect every press conference, read every analysis, and try to make sense of it all. We've got a better idea of where the team is going and at times, we can see some of the methods to the madness.

This time of year is usually a time of unbound optimism, especially for the more casual fans. But with all of the negativity, drama and change over the offseason, most casual fans don't see things the way we do. I've talk to many fans around here, ones that don't live and breathe Broncos football the way I do and they have all been less optimistic than in years past. Some have been downright pessimistic.

So while I don't think it's fair to say everyone is less optimistic, I do think a lot of people are. I am. I am normally bouncing off the walls excited, comforted by the fact that there was little chance we'd be horrible and a good chance we could be damn good. I don't have that comfort anymore. I don't know what our team is going to look like. That in and of itself is an optimism killer.

OrangeHoof
08-07-2009, 03:27 PM
So while I don't think it's fair to say everyone is less optimistic, I do think a lot of people are. I am. I am normally bouncing off the walls excited, comforted by the fact that there was little chance we'd be horrible and a good chance we could be damn good. I don't have that comfort anymore. I don't know what our team is going to look like. That in and of itself is an optimism killer.

People who are dissatisfied will react in one of two ways - they will voice their displeasure or they will just withdraw. Those voicing their displeasure are likely to overrepresent their numbers but it is the ones who just withdraw that any business should worry about.

One thing that will be a positive is that the Broncos are likely to shed a lot of the front-running fans that jumped on board during the Super Bowl years but hung around waiting for Shanahan to resurrect the franchise. Many of them will now make a clean break and hop on the bandwagon of another team that's on the upswing.

That means ultimately there will be more fans who are truly Bronco fans even if their numbers may be smaller.

topscribe
08-07-2009, 03:30 PM
People who are dissatisfied will react in one of two ways - they will voice their displeasure or they will just withdraw. Those voicing their displeasure are likely to overrepresent their numbers but it is the ones who just withdraw that any business should worry about.

One thing that will be a positive is that the Broncos are likely to shed a lot of the front-running fans that jumped on board during the Super Bowl years but hung around waiting for Shanahan to resurrect the franchise. Many of them will now make a clean break and hop on the bandwagon of another team that's on the upswing.

That means ultimately there will be more fans who are truly Bronco fans even if their numbers may be smaller.

Go Packers!!



*I keed! I keed!* :D



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T.K.O.
08-07-2009, 04:31 PM
3 years of optimism turned sour....has made it hard to be stoked about our chances,but i am glad bowlen finally grew a set and shook things up....BIGTIME! it was obviously long overdue.
i am optomistic and believe if it were not for the fact that we are facing possibly our toughest schedule in 5-6 years we would make the playoffs for sure(just to spite cutler)
but i do think we have a shot,if we can gameplan and execute some ball control offense and get back to a mid-pack D.
we should get to 9-7 10-6 area:salute:

Lonestar
08-07-2009, 04:44 PM
I was there games one and saw all regular season home games until 1979 when I moved out of state never to sit in Mile High again..

spent most of my years in the south stands.. and was a rabid fan as were all those around us..

I see alot of younger fans that do not KNOW the long term suffering of the old timers. and a lot of fair weather fans.. what Traveler posted was indeed spot on..

Considering the complete change on defense, the Offensive scheme change, what I see from this point on is improvement game to game for the next 18 months or so..

with lapses by players dropping coverage or balls.

Everything I have seen or heard about Josh is this is a solid scheme and Nolan is one of the better D Gurus in the game..

we have a massive influx of talent with just about TE and OLINE being eh only exceptions.. so it may take awhile for them to get to know each others names let alone how they are going to react in any certain situation..

for those newbies to the team.. sorry this will not be a mediocre to winning season like you have been used to..i

Az Snake
08-07-2009, 07:55 PM
He stated there is a general lack of optimism by Bronco's fans. I say he's projecting his own feelings. There is no general lack of optimism. The divisions may be sharper now than before, but I disagree that "Broncos' fans" generally lack optimism.

The wording suggests a projection of the speaker's own personal feelings in my opinion.


What are most Bronco fans' main concerns ? QB and D.

I feel very optimistic IF the Broncos can stay healthy.

At this point, the Broncos coaching staff must primarily concentrate on the basics. The basic fundamentals of the game. The basic game killers like turnovers and unnecessary penalties.

The Broncos have deep talent at receiver and RB.
A strong running game will force the opponent to respect the run. That will open up some dinks and dunks to players like Royal and Hillis in the flats and in crossing routes. Guys like that can do amazing stuff after the catch.

The Broncos won't have to put too much pressure on the QB. Just let the QB make clean hand offs. If the Broncos can average at least almost 4 yards/play, the opponent will play the run too heavy, that will leave some receivers wide open.

To start the season, big play capability is not necessarily a prerequisite. Ball control will be more important.

Ball control will keep the opponent off of the field and keep the Bronco's D fresh.

Eliminating mental errors, turnovers and penalties is key.

Focus on the basics and Bronco confidence will grow.
The Broncos have the talent to make outstanding and thrilling plays. Those plays will come as confidence builds.


A strong start at the beginning of the season will settle down the fans.

If the Broncos try as hard as they can and still can't come out of the gates strong, all Bronco fans will be unhappy of course, but those that will outright condemn the Broncos won't be "Real Bronco Fans" and shouldn't call themselves Bronco fans.



Personally, I think the Broncos can win the AFC-West and set their sights on the Division. I think this year's Broncos will surprise everyone, one game at a time !

JMHO











GO BRONCOS !!!







.

topscribe
08-07-2009, 08:00 PM
What are most Bronco fans' main concerns ? QB and D.

I feel very optimistic IF the Broncos can stay healthy.

At this point, the Broncos coaching staff must primarily concentrate on the basics. The basic fundamentals of the game. The basic game killers like turnovers and unnecessary penalties.

The Broncos have deep talent at receiver and RB.
A strong running game will force the opponent to respect the run. That will open up some dinks and dunks to players like Royal and Hillis in the flats and in crossing routes. Guys like that can do amazing stuff after the catch.

The Broncos won't have to put too much pressure on the QB. Just let the QB make clean hand offs. If the Broncos can average at least almost 4 yards/play, the opponent will play the run too heavy, that will leave some receivers wide open.

To start the season, big play capability is not necessarily a prerequisite. Ball control will be more important.

Ball control will keep the opponent off of the field and keep the Bronco's D fresh.

Eliminating mental errors, turnovers and penalties is key.

Focus on the basics and Bronco confidence will grow.
The Broncos have the talent to make outstanding and thrilling plays. Those plays will come as confidence builds.


A strong start at the beginning of the season will settle down the fans.

If the Broncos try as hard as they can and still can't come out of the gates strong, all Bronco fans will be unhappy of course, but those that will outright condemn the Broncos won't be "Real Bronco Fans" and shouldn't call themselves Bronco fans.



Personally, I think the Broncos can win the AFC-West and set their sights on the Division. I think this year's Broncos will surprise everyone, one game at a time !

JMHO











GO BRONCOS !!!







.

BOOYAHHHH!! :beer: :salute:

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Bad Intentions
08-08-2009, 12:17 AM
The boos come from the people who are unhappy at the moment...just like you have a lot of people on these message boards HOPING THAT WE HAVE A LOSING SEASON just to prove their own point valid.

The sky is not falling...and even if some of these moves that have been made this offseason turn out to be bad decisions, the franchise will recover - we all know Mike made some terrible decisions in the past...however, most of the moves that people were complaining about before are now non-topics because so far they have proven to be good moves:

drafting Ayers (yes b/c he is proven in 3 practices that he belongs right?)
drafting Smith (certainly looks the part, but the lights haven't come on yet)
bringing in Paxton (Fat ass isn't better than Leach...sorry)
drafting Olsen (Big and physical... too early to say he's good)
bringing in Bucky (Who?)
drafting McKinley (a good project he looks like)
bringing in Goodman (Legit... winner here)
bringing in Davis (Who?)
bringing in Gaffney (Stokely with system knowledge... yippee)

etc etc etc

These guys are all players and I suspect Orton will turn into a player as well...he will go through some growing pains, just as any QB does learning a new offense, but I am willing to bet the fans that boo'd him are the ones that are still bitter about losing Cutler. It's time to get over it and start looking to the future. We have some great new things to be excited about.

Unfortunately, people have already picked their sides...and the people that hate McDaniels and want Cutler back are going to take advantage of every opportunity they can get to say "I told you so"...which involves booing a couple bad throws in a simulation game 1 week into camp.

Man, I'm a homer and wouldn't call those all good moves at this point. I like their potential as much as anyone, but to say they're good moves when they haven't played as much as a single pre-season game... Not yet..

Spiritguy
08-08-2009, 09:45 AM
It is hard to argue that the fan base isn't divided and quick to anger right now, which one has to assume is really a reaction or because of the general state of unease about the team.

And possibly the general state of the country right now. It's understandable folks are feeling pushed because of all the changes. I think the booing at the stadium the other night is a reflection of peoples overall discomfort with so many things in our lives being in a state of flux. Including the team that has been a reliable constant for so long.

topscribe
08-08-2009, 10:36 AM
Man, I'm a homer and wouldn't call those all good moves at this point. I like their potential as much as anyone, but to say they're good moves when they haven't played as much as a single pre-season game... Not yet..

I felt the same as you at one time. But after all the reports from OTAs and
camp, I am happy with every one of those moves, except the dumping of Leach
and signing of Paxton. I'm still trying to figure that one out . . . :confused:

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frauschieze
08-08-2009, 10:52 AM
I felt the same as you at one time. But after all the reports from OTAs and
camp, I am happy with every one of those moves, except the dumping of Leach
and signing of Paxton. I'm still trying to figure that one out . . . :confused:

-----

Kern is singing Paxton's praises. Said he was confused at first but now understands why the move was made.

I just hope Paxton is the first one down the field making tackles. Well actually, scratch that, I hope he doesn't have to, but he damn sure should be able to be.

Dean
08-08-2009, 10:53 AM
What are most Bronco fans' main concerns ? QB and D.

I feel very optimistic IF the Broncos can stay healthy.

I hope that you are right. Right now, I can't see it.


At this point, the Broncos coaching staff must primarily concentrate on the basics. The basic fundamentals of the game. The basic game killers like turnovers and unnecessary penalties.

Without a doubt fundamentals are important but if you are out of position the ability to block and tackle is all for nought. With the new schemes, they better concentrate in getting people where they belong when they are to be there and to understand where their help is.



The Broncos have deep talent at receiver and RB.
A strong running game will force the opponent to respect the run. That will open up some dinks and dunks to players like Royal and Hillis in the flats and in crossing routes. Guys like that can do amazing stuff after the catch.

Amen



The Broncos won't have to put too much pressure on the QB. Just let the QB make clean hand offs. If the Broncos can average at least almost 4 yards/play, the opponent will play the run too heavy, that will leave some receivers wide open.

To start the season, big play capability is not necessarily a prerequisite. Ball control will be more important.

Without the ability to go downfield, the defense creeps up and takes away the run and closes those crossing routes.



Ball control will keep the opponent off of the field and keep the Bronco's D fresh.

Eliminating mental errors, turnovers and penalties is key.

I would add that creating some turnovers on defense would also be a key.



Focus on the basics and Bronco confidence will grow.
The Broncos have the talent to make outstanding and thrilling plays. Those plays will come as confidence builds.


A strong start at the beginning of the season will settle down the fans.

You might be right. However, many (even the less optomistic) have posted that they think that the first 3 games are our best chances for wins. If we can win a couple of games after that then I believe things will quiet down.



If the Broncos try as hard as they can and still can't come out of the gates strong, all Bronco fans will be unhappy of course, but those that will outright condemn the Broncos won't be "Real Bronco Fans" and shouldn't call themselves Bronco fans.

This is the statement that caused me to post. Those fans that were not happy with Shanahan and the Broncos over the last three seasons are "Real Bronco Fans" yet, if someone feels the same now they are not "Real Bronco Fans"?



Personally, I think the Broncos can win the AFC-West and set their sights on the Division. I think this year's Broncos will surprise everyone, one game at a time !

JMHO

Once again, I hope so past experience indicates to me that it is not likely. JMHO

topscribe
08-08-2009, 11:16 AM
I hope that you are right. Right now, I can't see it.

Here's what I see, Dean. The Broncos brought in a NT in Fields whom Nolan
and McDaniels are very high on. Peterson is a player, and Thomas slides
outside where his good athletic ability can take over. They are some 20 lbs.
heavier on average this year.

Last year's failures at DE have been moved back to OLB, including Dumervil
and Crowder. Reid has been tearing it up in camp, and Ayers has been added.
D.J. is healthy again, and he feels Jack is the best position for him yet. While
a lot of people have questioned the addition of Andra Davis, saying he's
"slow," he has been a run-stuffer par excellence so far in camp. And Larsen
and Woodyard have continued the productiveness they displayed last year.
Moreover, the LBs are about 30 lbs. heavier this year, IIRC.

The secondary is now a strength, and some think they rank among the best
in the league with Dawkins, Hill, and Goodman joining Champ, and A. Smith,
Jack Williams, Barrett, McBath, and Bruton in the wings.

I believe the Broncos are going to surprise with a good defense this year.

If that is the case, then they have a case as contenders in the Division since
they have one of the best WR corps, one of the best groups of TEs, one of
the best running games, probably the best O-line, and a good QB in Orton.

The schedule is tough, but they are not going up against military tanks. They
will be going against people. As AZ put it, one game at a time.

I say 10-6 this year . . . and that is up from the 6-10 I thought previously.

-----

Lonestar
08-08-2009, 11:31 AM
Just quick comment about Paxton.

Kern said the other day that while Leach was good he did not hit the hands the same way that Paxton is doing exactly the same spot everytime. Both when he is kicking or holding for FG's.

Now is that worth the change, time will tell.

I liked Leach a lot b ut if this kid is an upgrade.

Dean
08-08-2009, 11:39 AM
We see the same things. We just see them differently.


Here's what I see, Dean. The Broncos brought in a NT in Fields whom Nolan
and McDaniels are very high on. Peterson is a player, and Thomas slides
outside where his good athletic ability can take over. They are some 20 lbs.
heavier on average this year.

I see Fields as the weak link. Unfortunately he occupies the most important position on the defense.


Last year's failures at DE have been moved back to OLB, including Dumervil
and Crowder. Reid has been tearing it up in camp, and Ayers has been added.
D.J. is healthy again, and he feels Jack is the best position for him yet. While
a lot of people have questioned the addition of Andra Davis, saying he's
"slow," he has been a run-stuffer par excellence so far in camp. And Larsen
and Woodyard have continued the productiveness they displayed last year.
Moreover, the LBs are about 30 lbs. heavier this year, IIRC.

I like our inside LBs. I am going to have to see some evidence (even for Ayers) on the field before I can accept that our OLBs are anything but grasping at straws.



The secondary is now a strength, and some think they rank among the best
in the league with Dawkins, Hill, and Goodman joining Champ, and A. Smith,
Jack Williams, Barrett, McBath, and Bruton in the wings.

I believe the Broncos are going to surprise with a good defense this year.

I like our starting D-backs more and more all the time but the question remains whether at their age they can stay healthy and productive.

I will be satisfied with even an average defense this year.



If that is the case, then they have a case as contenders in the Division since
they have one of the best WR corps, one of the best groups of TEs, one of
the best running games, probably the best O-line, and a good QB in Orton.

The schedule is tough, but they are not going up against military tanks. They
will be going against people. As AZ put it, one game at a time.

I say 10-6 this year . . . and that is up from the 6-10 I thought previously.

I see the "if" as being unlikely so I remain with a 6-10 prediction. Now, IF Fields or a backup can play nose well and IF our LB can cover, then I would expect more wins.

atwater27
08-08-2009, 12:17 PM
Here is an olive branch. Let's see if it gets accepted.

Fans of my "ilk" whose love for Shanahan has made us pretty bitter about the whole offseason have been pretty critical of McDaniels. I am sad Cutler left us too.

I will say that Cutler, McDaniels and yes Pat Bowlen share the blame equally for losing Cutler. If I can find common ground with the anti Cutler fans it wil lessen our likelihood of flame wars.

I want to see Denver succeed. I want to forget about Cutler. But I respect him as a player and won't put up with people calling the guy a puss and a bitch and all those fun grenade lobbing character attacks. I will give McDaniels a chance and will say that I like the motivational tone of his coaching so far. so ai will change my sig.

OrangeHoof
08-08-2009, 03:06 PM
People always get giddy about what they hear coming out of training camp. Then the games start and the reality hits. Even if Shanahan had stayed here and he said "Guys, we're going to trade away Cutler and convert our defense to a 3-4 and bring in a bunch of retreads from around the league so we'll be a better team," do you think you'd be buying it? Or is it only because McDaniels came from the Patriots that you are buying it?

TXBRONC
08-08-2009, 03:16 PM
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”





http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5002/yodainswamp.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/yodainswamp.jpg/)

Thanks for the insight Yodafish. :lol:

BroncoWave
08-08-2009, 03:56 PM
People always get giddy about what they hear coming out of training camp. Then the games start and the reality hits. Even if Shanahan had stayed here and he said "Guys, we're going to trade away Cutler and convert our defense to a 3-4 and bring in a bunch of retreads from around the league so we'll be a better team," do you think you'd be buying it? Or is it only because McDaniels came from the Patriots that you are buying it?

I think more fans would buy it actually, just because it's the great genius Mike Shanahan who could do no wrong.

Do you REALLY think that if all the stuff that's happened with McD this offseason had happened with Shanahan, that Shanny would have taken as much heat from the fans? I highly doubt it.

T.K.O.
08-08-2009, 04:00 PM
People always get giddy about what they hear coming out of training camp. Then the games start and the reality hits. Even if Shanahan had stayed here and he said "Guys, we're going to trade away Cutler and convert our defense to a 3-4 and bring in a bunch of retreads from around the league so we'll be a better team," do you think you'd be buying it? Or is it only because McDaniels came from the Patriots that you are buying it?

we have been bringing in retreads for the past 10 years anyway so why would we "buy it" from shanny and not from mcD?
after he was fired he as much as admitted that he needed time off to recharge his batteries and bring his gameplan up to par for what is happening around the league.he said he was spread too thin in denver and his coaching suffered for it.
so if he is able to see that change was needed,why arent some fans able to see it?:confused:

Dean
08-08-2009, 05:01 PM
. . . after he was fired he as much as admitted that he needed time off to recharge his batteries and bring his gameplan up to par for what is happening around the league.he said he was spread too thin in denver and his coaching suffered for it.
so if he is able to see that change was needed,why arent some fans able to see it?:confused:

I would be interested if you could post the link where he said that.

Tned
08-08-2009, 05:01 PM
Here is an interesting bit written by SI's Don Banks, including a quote from McDaniels.

There is much more covered in the article, but this part is appropriate to this discussion.


Having already visited three other camps of teams that feature rookie NFL head coaches -- the Chiefs, Colts and Rams -- I can unequivocally say that the Broncos' McDaniels is the only one of those four who is starting his program without the benefit of a honeymoon. Denver fans are still plenty riled up about how the Jay Cutler melodrama unfolded, and it seems to have robbed McDaniels of any grace period as he goes about remaking a Broncos team that had been stuck in the status quo under Mike Shanahan.

The thought that keeps coming back to me is this: I believe McDaniels will make a good head coach in this league some day, but will it be in Denver, or somewhere else? Will people here show enough patience with McDaniels to find out what kind of coach he can be, or will the unusual set of circumstances that unfolded as he began his tenure -- and the rabid nature of Denver's fan base -- conspire to rob him of the time to develop his head coaching talents?

Or as one astute Broncos observer said to me Friday: Maybe we're watching Bill Belichick in Cleveland all over again. Maybe the team that will benefit most is the one that hires McDaniels after Denver. We're not trying to predict his demise before he has ever coached a game with the Broncos, but I think it's an intriguing question to ponder given the level of creeping impatience with McDaniels that already seems to be present.

After having Shanahan and Cutler, the Broncos suddenly are led by McDaniels and Orton. Will they be given much of a chance if early success doesn't follow? I'm skeptical.

"Well, the truth is I'm not going to have a whole lot of patience," McDaniels said. "I'm not looking to win two or three years from now. Honestly, I know everyone sits there and looks at me like I'm nuts. But Kyle Orton will play fine. There's no doubt in my mind he'll play fine and our offense is going to play well. Our defense is going to keep getting better, and hey, if people don't believe that, that's why we play the games in September. I'm just not concerned about that."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/don_banks/08/08/broncos.insider/index.html?eref=sihpT1

Hawgdriver
08-08-2009, 05:10 PM
Here is an interesting bit written by SI's Don Banks, including a quote from McDaniels.

Hi five yourself for that one ;)

I think Bowlen will measure McDaniels over a three year period, unless there are some major issues. Here's why:

It takes about 3 years of drafting and FA to determine if his personnel selection is good.

It takes about 2 years for a QB to master a complex system like his.

After 2 years, you can see how well you stack up in the division, and get an idea if you are moving up or down the power ladder (against SD, KC, Oak).

This team needs some time to gel and form an identity. It could happen within a season, but more likely during the second.

Ah, what the heck do I know...but it sounds reasonable to me.

It's not crucial that he make the playoffs in 2010, but that his efforts are clearly moving the Broncos in that direction. I think Broncos fans will be patient with him if we see that--and I do think we look for those things, and I do think we can spot them.

TXBRONC
08-08-2009, 06:09 PM
Hi five yourself for that one ;)

I think Bowlen will measure McDaniels over a three year period, unless there are some major issues. Here's why:

It takes about 3 years of drafting and FA to determine if his personnel selection is good.

It takes about 2 years for a QB to master a complex system like his.

After 2 years, you can see how well you stack up in the division, and get an idea if you are moving up or down the power ladder (against SD, KC, Oak).

This team needs some time to gel and form an identity. It could happen within a season, but more likely during the second.

Ah, what the heck do I know...but it sounds reasonable to me.

It's not crucial that he make the playoffs in 2010, but that his efforts are clearly moving the Broncos in that direction. I think Broncos fans will be patient with him if we see that--and I do think we look for those things, and I do think we can spot them.

Most owners are going to give a coach at least three years because of amount of money they invest into these guys.

OrangeHoof
08-08-2009, 06:27 PM
I think more fans would buy it actually, just because it's the great genius Mike Shanahan who could do no wrong.

Do you REALLY think that if all the stuff that's happened with McD this offseason had happened with Shanahan, that Shanny would have taken as much heat from the fans? I highly doubt it.

That's because Shanny has two Super Bowl rings and a string of non-losing seasons. That's called credibility. Yes, he would have still been criticized but, I agree, nothing like McDaniels is getting. But that's because McDaniels lacks the credibility Shanahan has earned.

Lonestar
08-08-2009, 06:44 PM
That's because Shanny has two Super Bowl rings and a string of non-losing seasons. That's called credibility. Yes, he would have still been criticized but, I agree, nothing like McDaniels is getting. But that's because McDaniels lacks the credibility Shanahan has earned.


yet in a lot folks minds said credibility was also squandered the past 2-5 years depending on who you ask..

frauschieze
08-08-2009, 07:26 PM
yet in a lot folks minds said credibility was also squandered the past 2-5 years depending on who you ask..

True, but to a lot of people, just knowing that we wouldn't have a shitty season like Detroit and having a shot at the playoffs was enough.

I do think Shanahan would have an easier go of things if he'd still been head coach but the rest of the offseason remained the same. The fan base had a certain level of faith in his capabilities that McDaniels has not received and won't until he wins.

Tned
08-08-2009, 07:36 PM
True, but to a lot of people, just knowing that we wouldn't have a shitty season like Detroit and having a shot at the playoffs was enough.

I do think Shanahan would have an easier go of things if he'd still been head coach but the rest of the offseason remained the same. The fan base had a certain level of faith in his capabilities that McDaniels has not received and won't until he wins.

It's like those polls that popped up over the last year or two, would you rather go 7-9 or have the number one pick in the draft? A lot, I think typically more than half, go with 7-9 over the first pick in the next years draft.

For a lot of us, having winning seasons was more enjoyable year in and year out than the pain and uncertainty of a rebuilding period that 'might' end with a dominant, SB winning team. Most clubs don't come out of the rebuilding period with a SB champion, but are lucky just to have a short period of winning seasons and maybe a few playoff appearances.

Requiem / The Dagda
08-08-2009, 07:39 PM
I'm not sure what the state of the overall Broncos Nation is, but I'm more than happy with how things have played out since the end of last season. Questionable moves? Sure. However, I like the direction we seem to be heading -- and I hope that McDaniels can lead us to the successes that Mike and Co. weren't able to over the past five seasons or so. Go Broncos.

Lonestar
08-08-2009, 07:40 PM
It's like those polls that popped up over the last year or two, would you rather go 7-9 or have the number one pick in the draft? A lot, I think typically more than half, go with 7-9 over the first pick in the next years draft.

For a lot of us, having winning seasons was more enjoyable year in and year out than the pain and uncertainty of a rebuilding period that 'might' end with a dominant, SB winning team. Most clubs don't come out of the rebuilding period with a SB champion, but are lucky just to have a short period of winning seasons and maybe a few playoff appearances.


good post and frankly I would be more worried about him being a flash in the pan winning 2 super bowls and then a few play games but Josh seems to be coming from a great system that seems to works well for NE..


will it happen here time will tell.. I'm willing to give him a chance as from everything I have seen him do seems to be the right move so FAR..

Tned
08-08-2009, 07:44 PM
good post and frankly I would be more worried about him being a flash in the pan winning 2 super bowls and then a few play games but Josh seems to be coming from a great system that seems to works well for NE..


will it happen here time will tell.. I'm willing to give him a chance as from everything I have seen him do seems to be the right move so FAR..


I disagree with the 'everything' he has done being the right move so far. I think there have definately been some questionable moves, and even his boss, Pat Bowlen, agrees, as he referred to his rookie mistakes.

Also, just coming from the great NE system is no guarantee, as to date those that have come from the Belicheck tree have not been very successful in the NFL.

That said, I am willing to give him a chance as well, and like what I have heard about the way he is running camp. Maybe it's a bit "High schoolish" with making 15 year veterans running laps for having a center/QB exchange fumbled, but I think the team will come out of this camp much more fundamentally sound than in recent years.

TXBRONC
08-08-2009, 09:17 PM
I disagree with the 'everything' he has done being the right move so far. I think there have definately been some questionable moves, and even his boss, Pat Bowlen, agrees, as he referred to his rookie mistakes.

Also, just coming from the great NE system is no guarantee, as to date those that have come from the Belicheck tree have not been very successful in the NFL.

That said, I am willing to give him a chance as well, and like what I have heard about the way he is running camp. Maybe it's a bit "High schoolish" with making 15 year veterans running laps for having a center/QB exchange fumbled, but I think the team will come out of this camp much more fundamentally sound than in recent years.

Exactly, it remains to be seen if every move McDaniels has made has been the right move.

Lonestar
08-08-2009, 11:57 PM
I disagree with the 'everything' he has done being the right move so far. I think there have definately been some questionable moves, and even his boss, Pat Bowlen, agrees, as he referred to his rookie mistakes.

Also, just coming from the great NE system is no guarantee, as to date those that have come from the Belicheck tree have not been very successful in the NFL.

That said, I am willing to give him a chance as well, and like what I have heard about the way he is running camp. Maybe it's a bit "High schoolish" with making 15 year veterans running laps for having a center/QB exchange fumbled, but I think the team will come out of this camp much more fundamentally sound than in recent years.

your correct about the BILLY tree not working out so far but the system is what I was talking about.. and from everything I have heard about this kid he was born to coach..

as for high schoolish personally I'd rather have that the Club Dove Valley that we have seen over the past few years deteriorate the skill level on this team in some areas to less than High levels.. (tackling mostly)..

Shazam!
08-09-2009, 12:31 AM
The 'Billy tree' not working gives McDaniels a better shot of working out.

Some would say mangini was sabotaged by the NYJ and destined for failure. in 2007 for trading their best OLman and he never wanted Farve in the first place. Crennel? Well, they're the Browns. Weiss? College coaching isn't for everyone and is much different than the NFL.

...as far as Shanahan's credibility, unfortuately his most recent accomplishment is turning Denver's defense into a near League-wide embarassment, and a colossal collapse.

Also, this is just drawing the lines again, to rehash everything that's been said in a hyper-emotional 2009.

Tned
08-09-2009, 12:57 AM
your correct about the BILLY tree not working out so far but the system is what I was talking about.. and from everything I have heard about this kid he was born to coach..

as for high schoolish personally I'd rather have that the Club Dove Valley that we have seen over the past few years deteriorate the skill level on this team in some areas to less than High levels.. (tackling mostly)..

Well, time will tell. I'm certainly in the group that hopes that McDaniels is the first descendant of the Billy tree that becomes a start coach in his own right, and does so in Denver.

Nature Boy
08-09-2009, 01:03 AM
"What is the current state of the Broncos nation?"

The current state of the Broncos nation is pretty WEAK.

too long of a list why...

.

aberdien
08-09-2009, 02:09 AM
Meh, i'm satisfied and excited for the season. I think i'm really optimistic just because i've been used to being lucky enough to be optimistic with Shanny.

I will be disappointed if we don't get close to making the playoffs. Too many people have been calling us a 4-12 team which I just simply am not able to believe.

Although i'm still going to be bitter until McDaniels takes us to the playoffs. I still think Shanny should've had 1 more year.

BroncoWave
08-09-2009, 02:15 AM
"What is the current state of the Broncos nation?"

The current state of the Broncos nation is pretty WEAK.

too long of a list why...

.

Why do you even waste your time following the team or posting on this forum if you are so convinced they are going to fail?

At this point it's time to get with it or get out. Mikey is never coming back and McDaniels isn't going anywhere anytime soon so if the direction he is taking the team in makes you so angry so I don't see why you continue to waste your energy worrying about it.

Watchthemiddle
08-09-2009, 03:00 AM
If the current state of Bronco nation was doom and gloom, they wouldn't have had 13,402 people at a practice the other night.

Nature Boy
08-09-2009, 03:12 AM
If the current state of Bronco nation was doom and gloom, they wouldn't have had 13,402 people at a practice the other night.


According to Jay Cutler, the Bears had 20,000 fans attending their practice around the same time a couple days ago.

.

Hawgdriver
08-09-2009, 03:13 AM
According to Jay Cutler, the Bears had 20,000 fans attending their practice around the same time a couple days ago.

.

20000 total, over several days.

Lonestar
08-09-2009, 04:45 AM
The 'Billy tree' not working gives McDaniels a better shot of working out.

Some would say mangini was sabotaged by the NYJ and destined for failure. in 2007 for trading their best OLman and he never wanted Farve in the first place. Crennel? Well, they're the Browns. Weiss? College coaching isn't for everyone and is much different than the NFL.

...as far as Shanahan's credibility, unfortuately his most recent accomplishment is turning Denver's defense into a near League-wide embarassment, and a colossal collapse.

Also, this is just drawing the lines again, to rehash everything that's been said in a hyper-emotional 2009.



actually until Farve arm went gimp they were leading the division with a 8-3 record.. I suspect had he not injured it Mangini would have still had a job..

considering that Farve did not really learn the offense and get his timing down till week 3, I think he did a hell of a job..

TXBRONC
08-09-2009, 06:15 AM
The 'Billy tree' not working gives McDaniels a better shot of working out.

Some would say mangini was sabotaged by the NYJ and destined for failure. in 2007 for trading their best OLman and he never wanted Farve in the first place. Crennel? Well, they're the Browns. Weiss? College coaching isn't for everyone and is much different than the NFL.

...as far as Shanahan's credibility, unfortuately his most recent accomplishment is turning Denver's defense into a near League-wide embarassment, and a colossal collapse.

Also, this is just drawing the lines again, to rehash everything that's been said in a hyper-emotional 2009.

How do you figure that because other Billichick coaching disciples have failed that some how gives McDaniels a better chance at success. That makes no sense to me.

McDaniels like the other Billichick will succeed or fail on his own merits.

Tned
08-09-2009, 08:03 AM
20000 total, over several days.

I believe per day. I was only half listening on the radio, but what they were talking about is that when teams like the Broncos move from places like Greeley to their private facilities, it is typically less fan friendly and won't support as many people.

Don't quote me, but I think the Bears drew just under 30,000 at Soldier field, and around 10,000 at their training camp facility.

Shazam!
08-09-2009, 11:51 AM
How do you figure that because other Billichick coaching disciples have failed that some how gives McDaniels a better chance at success.

Because eventually one of NE's coordinators will succeed. Why not McDaniels, with his resume being the offense and QB friendly guy?

Ravage!!!
08-09-2009, 12:11 PM
I believe per day. I was only half listening on the radio, but what they were talking about is that when teams like the Broncos move from places like Greeley to their private facilities, it is typically less fan friendly and won't support as many people.

Don't quote me, but I think the Bears drew just under 30,000 at Soldier field, and around 10,000 at their training camp facility.

just like the broncos had 13,000 at their practice the other day. That wasn't a total of several days, that was the one day total.

pnbronco
08-09-2009, 01:08 PM
I believe per day. I was only half listening on the radio, but what they were talking about is that when teams like the Broncos move from places like Greeley to their private facilities, it is typically less fan friendly and won't support as many people.

Don't quote me, but I think the Bears drew just under 30,000 at Soldier field, and around 10,000 at their training camp facility.

Well doing trade shows I have to pay attention to area populations to see if it's worth going to that location. Metro Chicago, not including the suburbs has a population of 2,836,658 and in 2007 was ranked the 3rd largest city in US. Metro Denver in 2007 had a population of 588,349 and ranked the 26th largest city.

Sandy C. on 104.3 was saying how the Bears always have 12,000 fans show up at Training Camp. So I went to the Bears Web site and looked for video and found one, after seeing what 13,000 looked like the other night I have a hard time believing that many people were there and it looked like a composite of several days, but maybe I just couldn't see the crowds. I did not post it because I am respecting that this is the Broncos site.

I have no doubt that 30,000 showed up at Solider Field esp if it was free. They have a lot of people out there and I couldn't wait to see Cutler when he first got here. IMO we are comparing apples to oranges.

I think we will need to be patient because there were so many changes this off season and it will take time. I really don't want to be the "Dog Pound" of the west and give up too early on a coach that could turn the team around.

Hawgdriver
08-09-2009, 01:24 PM
No no no, you have it all wrong. My sources say that--


Don't quote me

Oh. You're no fun.

:laugh:

Az Snake
08-09-2009, 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by Az Snake
What are most Bronco fans' main concerns ? QB and D.

I feel very optimistic IF the Broncos can stay healthy.

I hope that you are right. Right now, I can't see it.

As we know from last season, injuries are devastating. One of the silver linings last year and very heart warming to me, was watching kids step up and give their all. Seeing kids brought up from the practice squad, working real hard, and performing well is what football is all about. Many of these youngsters never get a chance to perform in the NFL before they are cut from the practice squad and their dreams ended.

I pray that the Broncos can stay as healthy as possible.
It is critical that the OLine work together week after week without injuries and substitutions so they can gel together and perform as one.




At this point, the Broncos coaching staff must primarily concentrate on the basics. The basic fundamentals of the game. The basic game killers like turnovers and unnecessary penalties.

Without a doubt fundamentals are important but if you are out of position the ability to block and tackle is all for nought. With the new schemes, they better concentrate in getting people where they belong when they are to be there and to understand where their help is.

Agreed Coach. Just one player out of position on an offensive blocking scheme can blow the whole play; just one player not knowing where he should be on D can give up the big play.




The Broncos have deep talent at receiver and RB.
A strong running game will force the opponent to respect the run. That will open up some dinks and dunks to players like Royal and Hillis in the flats and in crossing routes. Guys like that can do amazing stuff after the catch.

Amen

:amen:





The Broncos won't have to put too much pressure on the QB. Just let the QB make clean hand offs. If the Broncos can average at least almost 4 yards/play, the opponent will play the run too heavy, that will leave some receivers wide open.

To start the season, big play capability is not necessarily a prerequisite. Ball control will be more important.

Without the ability to go downfield, the defense creeps up and takes away the run and closes those crossing routes.


Exactly. "...the opponent will play the run too heavy, that will leave some receivers wide open."

When the defense creeps up, then the Broncos will have some receivers in single coverage and "some receivers wide open". Depending on the Broncos field position, a play fake then a successful deep sideline pass or a pass over the top should make the opponent's D back off the run attack, then the Broncos just keep pounding it until the opponent crowds the run again.




Ball control will keep the opponent off of the field and keep the Bronco's D fresh.

Eliminating mental errors, turnovers and penalties is key.

I would add that creating some turnovers on defense would also be a key.

Agreed.
Always one of the most exciting moments for me Coach, is when the D gets their hands on the ball !




Focus on the basics and Bronco confidence will grow.
The Broncos have the talent to make outstanding and thrilling plays. Those plays will come as confidence builds.


A strong start at the beginning of the season will settle down the fans.

You might be right. However, many (even the less optomistic) have posted that they think that the first 3 games are our best chances for wins. If we can win a couple of games after that then I believe things will quiet down.

Agreed.
Nothing changes the tune like winning !




If the Broncos try as hard as they can and still can't come out of the gates strong, all Bronco fans will be unhappy of course, but those that will outright condemn the Broncos won't be "Real Bronco Fans" and shouldn't call themselves Bronco fans.

This is the statement that caused me to post. Those fans that were not happy with Shanahan and the Broncos over the last three seasons are "Real Bronco Fans" yet, if someone feels the same now they are not "Real Bronco Fans"?



As I stated Coach, "If the Broncos try as hard as they can and still can't come out of the gates strong, all Bronco fans will be unhappy of course...."

True Bronco fans are a highly spirited, emotional and dedicated lot... no Bronco fan is happy without a win.

I was referring to so called fans that repeatedly and viciously attack, condemn and belittle the Bronco organization just because they do not agree with certain policy changes. The Broncos are a business first, always have been. Sure, bonehead moves may be made, but we as fans have little influence on the Broncos management decisions. We can cry all we want but we cannot decide who gets hired and fired, who gets drafted, traded or cut, who plays, or which kind of schemes the coaching staff wants to implement.

Bronco fans do not necessarily have to agree with everything management does. Those that constantly bash and degrade the Broncos because of an obsessed personal subjective agenda need to let go and move on, or I don't consider them true Bronco fans.

I support the Broncos regardless of their W/L record or moves made upstairs. You mentioned the last 3 seasons, I have, as well as many other old timers ( :aetsch: hey Jr. and top :lol:), supported the Broncos through thick and thin, and we've all seen quite a few things come and go. In hindsight, many times we see the logic behind management's decisions. And sometimes we don't.

Objective and constructive criticism of the Broncos is any Broncos fan's prerogative and that's fine. This is one of the reasons that I don't post much in GD anymore. Great posters, like you Coach, cover the gamut more than adequately. As I view GD, every topic under the sun is usually covered and it would be redundant of me to pile on more comments.

Bronco bashers or as ***WTM*** calls them, "doom and gloomers" need to lighten up and support their Broncos, win or lose.








Personally, I think the Broncos can win the AFC-West and set their sights on the Division. I think this year's Broncos will surprise everyone, one game at a time !

JMHO

Once again, I hope so past experience indicates to me that it is not likely. JMHO

You are commenting like a Coach, I was posting as a homer !
:lol:



Thank you Coach Dean for your insight and comments.
Always a pleasure !





GO BRONCOS !!!






.

Broncos Mtnman
08-09-2009, 03:46 PM
20000 total, over several days.

Cutler got his first taste of Soldier Field with 27,793 fans showing up for Saturday's Family Day.

Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/chi-09-bears-jay-cutler-chicago-aug09,0,5938681.story)

OrangeHoof
08-09-2009, 04:59 PM
Because eventually one of NE's coordinators will succeed. Why not McDaniels, with his resume being the offense and QB friendly guy?

Then I guess you would expect Gary Kubiak to be a great head coach too.

Hawgdriver
08-09-2009, 05:17 PM
Cutler got his first taste of Soldier Field with 27,793 fans showing up for Saturday's Family Day.

Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/chi-09-bears-jay-cutler-chicago-aug09,0,5938681.story)

The Bears have some great fans.

BroncoWave
08-09-2009, 05:18 PM
Then I guess you would expect Gary Kubiak to be a great head coach too.

Kubiak is doing a fine job given the circumstances in Houston. They are in a brutally tough division but he is improving the team every year. He still could be a great coach in the league.

Ravage!!!
08-09-2009, 05:21 PM
Kubiak is doing a fine job given the circumstances in Houston. They are in a brutally tough division but he is improving the team every year. He still could be a great coach in the league.

Possibly. But I think this is his make-it-or-break-it season. He's gone from 6-10, to 8-8 in two years. Not exactly showing he can make vast improvements... YET.

atwater27
08-09-2009, 05:22 PM
Kubiak is just a holdover from Shanahan. Shanahan is out of this league. Kubiak should follow.

Dean
08-09-2009, 05:22 PM
Thanks Az Snake for your clarification. The original post IMO read that people who disagreed with the present front office and their moves were children of a lesser god and were therefore not true fans. I personally disagree with many of those moves and I feel that this year the team will struggle to win.

My hope(s) remains that I am wrong or that this year will be a rite of passage to a much better future.

As you stated, if things don't improve fairly quickly, there will be changes once again.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-09-2009, 05:30 PM
Cutler got his first taste of Soldier Field with 27,793 fans showing up for Saturday's Family Day.

Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/chi-09-bears-jay-cutler-chicago-aug09,0,5938681.story)

This was a little more than just a practice. You would expect a large crowd for something like this.


http://www.chicagobears.com/news/NewsStory.asp?story_id=5929

Bears to conduct Family Day practice at Soldier Field

LAKE FOREST, Ill. – Fans can watch the Bears practice at Soldier Field on Saturday, Aug. 8 at the Comcast Bears Family Day presented by Chase. Tickets cost $7 and are available by phone, Internet and Ticketmaster outlets.

Fans can charge tickets by phone at (800) 745-3000 or the ChicagoBears.com Family Day page. Through the “Four or More Ticket Offer” fans may purchase four tickets for $24 and any additional ticket for only $6, with the offer expiring at midnight on August 6th.

All seating will once again be reserved for Family Day. There will not be any general admission seating.

Comcast is also offering its customers an exclusive “buy one ticket, get one free” offer. Fans that have Comcast Digital Cable can access the offer by visiting Chicago Bears in the Get Local section of On Demand for the promotion code or by calling (866) 594-1234.

In addition to the Bears practice, family activities such as games, live music and radio broadcasts are scheduled. The first 30,000 fans to enter Soldier Field will also receive a chance to win the “Comcast Jersey Off Their Back” contest in which winners will head down to the field after practice, meet a player and receive their jersey.

Gates open at 10 a.m.; activities outside the stadium will also begin at 10 a.m. Comcast Bears Family Day presented by Chase is also brought to you by Miller Lite, Coca-Cola, Jewel-Osco, the Chicago Sun-Times, FOX Chicago and WBBM AM 780.

MOtorboat
08-09-2009, 05:34 PM
Cutler got his first taste of Soldier Field with 27,793 fans showing up for Saturday's Family Day.

Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/chi-09-bears-jay-cutler-chicago-aug09,0,5938681.story)

Fine...Bears fans are better than Broncos fans.

Point?

Hawgdriver
08-09-2009, 05:36 PM
Comcast Bears Family Day presented by Chase is also brought to you by Miller Lite, Coca-Cola, Jewel-Osco, the Chicago Sun-Times, FOX Chicago and WBBM AM 780.

The Broncos are a class act for not doing this.

TXBRONC
08-09-2009, 05:41 PM
Thanks Az Snake for your clarification. The original post IMO read that people who disagreed with the present front office and their moves were children of a lesser god and were therefore not true fans. I personally disagree with many of those moves and I feel that this year the team will struggle to win.

My hope(s) remains that I am wrong or that this year will be a rite of passage to a much better future.

As you stated, if things don't improve fairly quickly, there will be changes once again.

I read this in Woody Paiges Mailbag a few days ago. Paige hasn't exactly taken it easy on McDaniels but even Woody thinks that eventually McDaniels will be successful in Denver. In other words there are a lot sports journalists and fans that may not care for every thing that McDaniels has done but that doesn't mean by any stretch that they want McDaniels or the Broncos to fail. My hope is that he can build team that wins mulitiple Super Bowls. It just at this point I'm still doubtful Orton is triggerman to get the job done.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_13001862

Mailbag: Broncos and Buffs evaluated

Bruce from Delaware wonders if the Broncos are moving in the right direction

By Woody Paige
The Denver Post

Denver Post sports columnist Woody Paige posts Woody's Mailbag on Thursdays.

Drop a question into Woody's Mailbag, or visit The Denver Post's Sports Page.

Woody, I am a long-time Bronco fan and am concerned about the events that have taken place since the nightmare against San Diego to finish the 2008 season. Are the Broncos moving in the right direction?
-- Bruce Jenkins, Wilmington, Del.

Bruce: Giddyup! When practice ended up the other day, Josh McDaniels walked up and said: "What do you think?" I felt like quoting Robert DeNiro out of "Taxi Driver:" "You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me?" Why would he ask me? I'm just a wordsmith. Actually, I'm just a blacksmith with a laptop. I replied: "The team looks great, and you utilize your practice time very well, and I like the watermelon for the players after the workout. May I have a slice of watermelon?"

The Broncos are moving in a new direction, but I don't know if it's the right direction. What I believe sincerely is if McDaniels hadn't gone through the Cutler Dilemma (which was like the "Borne Ultimatum") everybody would be excited about this training camp. After three one-on-one conversations with Josh — lasting about five hours — I know he is a brilliant young coach, and he will be a success with the Broncos ultimately. He's as sharp as Mike Shanahan was when he was an assistant here and later, as a head coach. Mike was so creative, and Josh is, too.

I thought the league caught up to Mike (who I spent time with recently in Lake Tahoe), and Mike will return as a different coach. But do the Broncos have the right mix now? The secondary is vastly improved. The defensive line is a real question mark, as far as I'm concerned. Even though the Broncos will rely on the outside linebackers to apply pressure to the quarterback, the starters at defensive end are question marks, and the depth at that position is shallow.

I had written the Broncos should sign Ronnie Fields as a nose tackle, and they agreed. He will be good in the middle. I'm not certain about the outside linebackers, but I'd love to see Robert Ayers, the rookie, and Jarvis Moss starting. They're big guys who can rush. But Moss probably will be traded or released, and Ayers won't start for four or five games.

Offensively, the Broncos will have a better running game, and I'm happy that they'll continue to zone block on the line most of the time. Brandon Marshall's injury and attitude will be a question, but Jabar Gaffney is a player, and Eddie Royal is a Pro Bowler in waiting. The offensive line, Mike said, is one of the best in the business.

But I'm worried about two dozen or more new players coming together with a new coaching staff, and new schemes, and I'm seriously worried about that schedule. Josh and I had a polite argument about the strength of schedule, but he knows it will be tough to beat Pittsburgh, New England, Indianapolis, Baltimore, San Diego, Dallas I could go on.

Can Kyle Orton be more than an average quarterback? How quickly will running back Knowshon Moreno develop, and why was he so stupid to stay out of camp when he could have established himself as a starter? Will (bleep)

Field at Mile High ever become a dominant home-field advantage again?
(Inside Information Alert) Josh told he will use the hurry-up offense sometimes at home, but not to rip him if he doesn't do it early. Sometimes you need a change. The country needed a change, I believe. The Broncos needed a change, I believe. How will it play out? I'm impressed with what I've seen in training camp, but I haven't seen the Broncos win in Cincinnati yet. So, forgive me for reserving judgment. But, if you're a fan, hang in there. It will only get better.

Broncos Mtnman
08-09-2009, 05:44 PM
This was a little more than just a practice. You would expect a large crowd for something like this.


http://www.chicagobears.com/news/NewsStory.asp?story_id=5929

Bears to conduct Family Day practice at Soldier Field

LAKE FOREST, Ill. – Fans can watch the Bears practice at Soldier Field on Saturday, Aug. 8 at the Comcast Bears Family Day presented by Chase. Tickets cost $7 and are available by phone, Internet and Ticketmaster outlets.

Fans can charge tickets by phone at (800) 745-3000 or the ChicagoBears.com Family Day page. Through the “Four or More Ticket Offer” fans may purchase four tickets for $24 and any additional ticket for only $6, with the offer expiring at midnight on August 6th.

All seating will once again be reserved for Family Day. There will not be any general admission seating.

Comcast is also offering its customers an exclusive “buy one ticket, get one free” offer. Fans that have Comcast Digital Cable can access the offer by visiting Chicago Bears in the Get Local section of On Demand for the promotion code or by calling (866) 594-1234.

In addition to the Bears practice, family activities such as games, live music and radio broadcasts are scheduled. The first 30,000 fans to enter Soldier Field will also receive a chance to win the “Comcast Jersey Off Their Back” contest in which winners will head down to the field after practice, meet a player and receive their jersey.

Gates open at 10 a.m.; activities outside the stadium will also begin at 10 a.m. Comcast Bears Family Day presented by Chase is also brought to you by Miller Lite, Coca-Cola, Jewel-Osco, the Chicago Sun-Times, FOX Chicago and WBBM AM 780.


So, the Bears draw twice the number of fans for a practice they have to pay to attend than Denver did for a free event.

Gee, I see your point..... :coffee:

Tned
08-09-2009, 05:46 PM
Kubiak is just a holdover from Shanahan. Shanahan is out of this league. Kubiak should follow.

This is a little over the top. First, Kubiak isn't Shanahan. Second, it will be very surprising if Shanahan doesn't just about have his pick of jobs next year.

MOtorboat
08-09-2009, 05:46 PM
So, the Bears draw twice the number of fans for a practice they have to pay to attend than Denver did for a free event.

Gee, I see your point..... :coffee:


Fine...Bears fans are better than Broncos fans.

Point?

...

Lonestar
08-09-2009, 06:04 PM
Kubiak is doing a fine job given the circumstances in Houston. They are in a brutally tough division but he is improving the team every year. He still could be a great coach in the league.


He may never be an elite coach but consider the state of affairs in HOU when he got there I think he has done a fine job and it may take a few more years to know for sure..

they were an expansion franchise the did very poorly in the expansion draft and it went down hill from there to the point where they cleaned house much like Pat did in DEN and hired almost new everyone.. and Gary has gotten them out of the ashes into some decent season and IIRC many of the games they lost were pretty close ones to division rivals..

They have a young squad that is just now learning how to win big games.. much the same way as we are going to have to do..

Lonestar
08-09-2009, 06:25 PM
Thanks Az Snake for your clarification. The original post IMO read that people who disagreed with the present front office and their moves were children of a lesser god and were therefore not true fans. I personally disagree with many of those moves and I feel that this year the team will struggle to win.

My hope(s) remains that I am wrong or that this year will be a rite of passage to a much better future.

As you stated, if things don't improve fairly quickly, there will be changes once again.


I do not have an issue with others that do not agree with me and therefore are WRONG..

unless all they have to "input" are one line negative posts..

then one really has to wonder who, or what kind of fans they are.. at least I do..

I know that a few folks are bronco fans and really thought jay was going to take us to the promised land.. and while I get it to blast Josh Etal because he is not here is well foolish it is time to move on or move with jay to Chicago..

if someone has a resaonable debate about it I may not like their thoughts about it but will rarely IF ever call them out for their thoughts..

when it comes to one liners well that is another story..

I respect our coach's the 4-5 that are on here as well as all us old fogies that have seen just about all of it..

to the younger crowd that came on board after Pat came into power have patience he has not failed us fans yet..

If Josh was a mistake like Phillips was it won;t take long to fix it.. if he was a mistake like mike was it should be a good ride for the next 8-10 years..

I for one am willing to Wait and see what the new kid brings..

Denver Native (Carol)
08-09-2009, 06:52 PM
So, the Bears draw twice the number of fans for a practice they have to pay to attend than Denver did for a free event.

Gee, I see your point..... :coffee:

My point was that there was much more going on that day than just the practice.

MOtorboat
08-09-2009, 07:33 PM
My point was that there was much more going on that day than just the practice.

My point is...what the hell does it matter?

atwater27
08-09-2009, 08:04 PM
This is a little over the top. First, Kubiak isn't Shanahan. Second, it will be very surprising if Shanahan doesn't just about have his pick of jobs next year.

I was kidding. I love Kubiak.

pnbronco
08-09-2009, 08:23 PM
AZ posted..
I have, as well as many other old timers ( hey Jr. and top ), supported the Broncos through thick and thin

Hey for the record, I think I'm older than Jr., I only act 12....:D

OrangeHoof
08-10-2009, 02:31 PM
FWIW, Kubiak has the same problem Shanahan has. He's not a defensive coach and the defense is what is holding the team back even though they draft defense high every year (Mario Williams, Amobi Okeye, Brian Cushing, Connor Barwin) and sign a bunch of free agents, the defense is the part of the team that isn't pulling their weight (that and a QB made of paper mache).

So, guess what? The Defensive Coordinator was fired last year and one of the defensive staff was promoted to the job. Sound familiar? He promises this year's defense will be "more aggressive". Isn't that what they all say?

Dean
08-10-2009, 07:48 PM
I do not have an issue with others that do not agree with me and therefore are WRONG..

unless all they have to "input" are one line negative posts..

then one really has to wonder who, or what kind of fans they are.. at least I do..

I am not sure where you saw in my post that I was refering to you. If your statement of one line posts is in reference to me, I guess that one line must be the best I can do at that moment. :confused:


I know that a few folks are bronco fans and really thought jay was going to take us to the promised land.. and while I get it to blast Josh Etal because he is not here is well foolish it is time to move on or move with jay to Chicago..

I can't answer for others but there has been a lot more to this off season than just the trade of Cutler.


if someone has a resaonable debate about it I may not like their thoughts about it but will rarely IF ever call them out for their thoughts..

when it comes to one liners well that is another story..

I try to be reasonable, I guess that I must have failed in your eyes.


I respect our coach's the 4-5 that are on here as well as all us old fogies that have seen just about all of it..

I don't understand what you mean here.


to the younger crowd that came on board after Pat came into power have patience he has not failed us fans yet..

If Josh was a mistake like Phillips was it won;t take long to fix it.. if he was a mistake like mike was it should be a good ride for the next 8-10 years..

We don't know whether Pat failed us or not in this case. Phillips is the perfect example that it has happened before.


I for one am willing to Wait and see what the new kid brings..

We will all have to wait to see the results and I hope that he brings positive results.

T.K.O.
08-10-2009, 08:00 PM
why do people keep saying "josh mcdaniels traded jay cutler"
pat bowlen came out 2 days before the trade and said that his phone calls to jay were not returned and that he basically had no choice but to accomadate JAY'S request and trade him.
prior to that mc d said repeatedly that he wanted jay to be his qb and that "he is our quarterback".
sure you can put some of the blame on josh for listening to trade offers in the 1st place and then after not making a deal i guess he did'nt massage jay's ego enough to satisfy the chosen one.
but he certainly cant be charged with the total bill for what happened !:salute:

its done and over now we can all sit back and hope we make the playoffs and kyle gets to be a probowl qb with the stout recieving corps we have.
remember kyle has never enjoyed the weapons jay had and he might just surprise us !

Northman
08-10-2009, 10:42 PM
why do people keep saying "josh mcdaniels traded jay cutler"
pat bowlen came out 2 days before the trade and said that his phone calls to jay were not returned and that he basically had no choice but to accomadate JAY'S request and trade him.
prior to that mc d said repeatedly that he wanted jay to be his qb and that "he is our quarterback".
sure you can put some of the blame on josh for listening to trade offers in the 1st place and then after not making a deal i guess he did'nt massage jay's ego enough to satisfy the chosen one.
but he certainly cant be charged with the total bill for what happened !:salute:

its done and over now we can all sit back and hope we make the playoffs and kyle gets to be a probowl qb with the stout recieving corps we have.
remember kyle has never enjoyed the weapons jay had and he might just surprise us !

It actually was a collaboration between Josh and Pat. It wasnt just Pat and it wasnt just Josh. However, after Bowlen talked with Cook he said it became clear that Jay did not want to be a Denver Bronco and they moved forward.

In-com-plete
08-11-2009, 07:33 AM
Ok, I am Listening to AM 1510 this morning, and Les Shapiro and Jim Armstrong were saying that in 25 years of covering the Broncos, they have never seen as many people as angry about the Broncos or alienated from the team as they have seen this off season and so far in training camp.

They say that in a combined 50 years (25 each) of covering the Broncos, they have never seen this type of anger, feeling of the franchise spiraling down, and general lack of optimism by Broncos' fans, this early in the year.

As forum goers, we are seeing much the same as what Les and Jim are describing. Fans have become very polarized, arguably even more so than during Jake's time under center.

They talk about how many fans were angry that Shanahan was fired; then, more fans became angry with Cutler being traded; then, more fans became angry with McDaniels being hired. They also stated that while probably not deserved, McDaniels has been very polarizing for fans and has taken an awful lot of heat for someone that hasn't coached a game yet (paraphrasing).

So, think about it, during the last 25 years, the Broncos haven't had many losing seasons, and we just had a three game stretch of .500 ball, with one losing season. We have become used to good-to-great offensive teams, and there is concern that with Orton under center, that we might not have a great offensive team.

Combine that with the fact that 70-80% of the Broncos defensive starters have been replaced, not to mention many of their backups, and most fans assumed the only way this team wins this year is if the offense is at least as good (better in the red zone) than last year. Most assume that the defense can't become a 'great' defense overnight, so the offense will need to carry the team.

Broncos fans haven't experienced a true rebuilding period in decades, so are they disgruntled because they fear that is what we are facing?

What is the state of the Broncos' nation?

Is this the most pessimistic and angry fans have been for a quarter century?

Is that pessimism and anger justified?

How will fans react if we see a truly bad season, one that ends with 2-5 wins?

This is the most angry I've been since I've become a fan in '85. 24 seasons I've been a fan now and I can honestly say this is by far the most pissed off I've been at this organization.

I can understand Shanny getting fired. Fine. Whatever. Maybe we did need a new HC. But I can't understand the hiring of McDou . . . . our idiot of a head coach. And I can't understand the shopping of Cutler (which in turn caused Cutler to be pissed and request the trade that never should have happened if McGenius was just that, a genius).

I'm actually not even looking forward to the start of the season. I don't even want to watch this trainwreck.

I'm done typing how I feel because honestly, I'm starting to sweat and I'm getting the shakes from my adrenaline spiking.

But to sum everything up, this team blows and I'm not not looking forward to 9/13/09.

Elevation inc
08-11-2009, 07:35 AM
the current state is this: (biased spoiler alert!!! lol)

The Denver broncos are no longer going to be a team that will be pushed around easily, we will not be blown out at home 3 or 4 times a year, we will not collapse with a 3 game division lead, we will finish games off in the 4th quarter, we will run you into the ground and run the ball down your throats, we will be faster, stronger and more physical than anything you have seen the last 3 years and we will attack till you dont want it anymore. We plan on throwing all our offensive weapons down your throat, and do not underestimate our well coached hungry defensive squad.


Sounds like a good state to start with when you have a new era in town if ya ask me....now can our Qb win us the SB, or our defense be top 15...i dont think so.....but teams have made the playoffs before with a physical style, tough ground game, and a defense that comes together later on in the season.

Many questions surround this team, but make no mistake about it....this will not be a weak, fluffy, small, soft team we have seen the last few years. if your a betting type of person go ahead and bet on that one......

Elevation inc
08-11-2009, 07:37 AM
This is the most angry I've been since I've become a fan in '85. 24 seasons I've been a fan now and I can honestly say this is by far the most pissed off I've been at this organization.

I can understand Shanny getting fired. Fine. Whatever. Maybe we did need a new HC. But I can't understand the hiring of McDou . . . . our idiot of a head coach. And I can't understand the shopping of Cutler (which in turn caused Cutler to be pissed and request the trade that never should have happened if McGenius was just that, a genius).

I'm actually not even looking forward to the start of the season. I don't even want to watch this trainwreck.

I'm done typing how I feel because honestly, I'm starting to sweat and I'm getting the shakes from my adrenaline spiking.

But to sum everything up, this team blows and I'm not not looking forward to 9/13/09.

lol a perfect example of a biased opinion with out objectivity.....perhaps you should stay away from watching denver this year in case your adrenaline causes you to go brandon marshall on someone....lol

Dean
08-11-2009, 08:03 AM
lol a perfect example of a biased opinion with out objectivity.....perhaps you should stay away from watching denver this year in case your adrenaline causes you to go brandon marshall on someone....lol

Opinion n. 1. a belief or judgement baseed on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. 2. a personal view,attitude, or appraisal. 5. a judgement or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character or merit.

Both I and Webster's American Dictionary were unaware that objectivity was required. Aren't all opinions subjective by their very nature?
:confused:

Elevation inc
08-11-2009, 08:13 AM
Opinion n. 1. a belief or judgement baseed on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. 2. a personal view,attitude, or appraisal. 5. a judgement or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character or merit.

Both I and Webster's American Dictionary were unaware that objectivity was required. Aren't all opinions subjective by their very nature?
:confused:

lol.....there is a difference between throwing wild opions out there based on as your dictionary stated....grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty, and simply taking a step back and having a opinion yet remaing objective to the situation......

there is nothing wrong with opinion but its clear his opinion, was very strong towards one side without any grounds to produce complete certainty...yet not once did i say he had to be objective i was simply stating a observation....and making sure that he doesnt let his adrenaline get to him.....lol..seems simple enough to me....

hence the biased opinion with out objectivity comment.....

In-com-plete
08-11-2009, 09:23 AM
lol a perfect example of a biased opinion with out objectivity.....perhaps you should stay away from watching denver this year in case your adrenaline causes you to go brandon marshall on someone....lol

Here's to that great offseason we're about to complete! :beer:

The only good thing that's happened with this team is we're switching to the 3-4.

Errrrrr . . . . Can I say that? Or is it the "perfect example of a biased opinion with out objectivity"?


LOL

LOL

LOL

Elevation inc
08-11-2009, 10:35 AM
Here's to that great offseason we're about to complete! :beer:

The only good thing that's happened with this team is we're switching to the 3-4.

Errrrrr . . . . Can I say that? Or is it the "perfect example of a biased opinion with out objectivity"?


LOL

LOL

LOL

thats perfect you just made my day:beer:


LOL






and thank you for noticing my post was made in jest hence the go brandon marshall on somebody phrase...lol

T.K.O.
08-11-2009, 10:49 AM
so..... if any other 8-8 team (.500 avg for 3 years)got the chance to pick up the top rb in the draft,brian dawkins,a healthy champ bailey the return of 2 of the best young recievers in the game.a stable of capable backs,a cb that was considered 1st round talent (if not for the 5'9" issue),a top defensive prospect and the OC behind the only offense in league history to win 18 straight games as their new head coach......you would say that nothing good happened in that offseason just because they lost one player that wanted out?
thats nuckin futs.
there are alot of teams in the league that would like to have had some of the offseason moves we had !!!!!!!
GO BRONCOS ! i think we are moving in the right direction and frankly am getting tired of the doom & gloom crowd whining about the past ! (just my opinioon feel free to whine on ,i just wont pay attention to you.....yeah you know who you are;))

Lonestar
08-11-2009, 11:30 AM
With all the top notch offseason moves. If it was not for the brutal schedule I could easily see a 9-7 or better season.

BroncoWave
08-11-2009, 11:35 AM
This is the most angry I've been since I've become a fan in '85. 24 seasons I've been a fan now and I can honestly say this is by far the most pissed off I've been at this organization.

I can understand Shanny getting fired. Fine. Whatever. Maybe we did need a new HC. But I can't understand the hiring of McDou . . . . our idiot of a head coach. And I can't understand the shopping of Cutler (which in turn caused Cutler to be pissed and request the trade that never should have happened if McGenius was just that, a genius).

I'm actually not even looking forward to the start of the season. I don't even want to watch this trainwreck.

I'm done typing how I feel because honestly, I'm starting to sweat and I'm getting the shakes from my adrenaline spiking.

But to sum everything up, this team blows and I'm not not looking forward to 9/13/09.

If it's such a strain on you to pull for your team then pick someone else. It's no one in the Broncos' organization's fault that you have such unrealistic and unreasonable expectations. That is no one's fault but your own.

Fans like you are the reason so many coaches over the league get fired prematurely. Don't know the meaning of the word rebuilding and would rather run the guy out of town because he's not producing wins at the pace you would prefer then let him build his product.

Like I said to another poster earlier, Shanny is never coming back and McDaniels will be here for at least the next 3 years so at this point it's either time to get with it or get out.

BroncoWave
08-11-2009, 11:39 AM
so..... if any other 8-8 team (.500 avg for 3 years)got the chance to pick up the top rb in the draft,brian dawkins,a healthy champ bailey the return of 2 of the best young recievers in the game.a stable of capable backs,a cb that was considered 1st round talent (if not for the 5'9" issue),a top defensive prospect and the OC behind the only offense in league history to win 18 straight games as their new head coach......you would say that nothing good happened in that offseason just because they lost one player that wanted out?
thats nuckin futs.
there are alot of teams in the league that would like to have had some of the offseason moves we had !!!!!!!
GO BRONCOS ! i think we are moving in the right direction and frankly am getting tired of the doom & gloom crowd whining about the past ! (just my opinioon feel free to whine on ,i just wont pay attention to you.....yeah you know who you are;))

Fantastic post. It sad that some of our fans have their panties so much in a wad over losing ONE FREAKING PLAYER that they ignore all the other great moves that have been made this offseason.

As for this season, I'm not expecting too much but once they have a year under their belts with McDaniels and have what should be an easier schedule next season, I think this team will absolutely explode. (in a good way of course)

In-com-plete
08-11-2009, 11:43 AM
so..... if any other 8-8 team (.500 avg for 3 years)got the chance to pick up the top rb in the draft,brian dawkins,a healthy champ bailey the return of 2 of the best young recievers in the game.a stable of capable backs,a cb that was considered 1st round talent (if not for the 5'9" issue),a top defensive prospect and the OC behind the only offense in league history to win 18 straight games as their new head coach......you would say that nothing good happened in that offseason just because they lost one player that wanted out?
thats nuckin futs.
there are alot of teams in the league that would like to have had some of the offseason moves we had !!!!!!!
GO BRONCOS ! i think we are moving in the right direction and frankly am getting tired of the doom & gloom crowd whining about the past ! (just my opinioon feel free to whine on ,i just wont pay attention to you.....yeah you know who you are;))

And I don't pay attention to the rah rah, yeah yeah, homer crowd that praises every single move this team makes. So I was commented on Tneds first post in this thread. (He was asking for opinions on what everyone thinks about the current state of Broncos nation):


What is the state of the Broncos' nation?

Is this the most pessimistic and angry fans have been for a quarter century?

Is that pessimism and anger justified?

How will fans react if we see a truly bad season, one that ends with 2-5 wins?

Then I replied to Mr. LOL who thinks I have a biased opinion. LOL

And now, I'm replying to your post since I'm "yeah you know who you are".

The reality is, we lost a pro-bowl QB and replaced him with a below average QB. We're switching from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Champ's no longer the best corner in the league. Marshall's pissed at McCoachoftheyear and wants out. We signed like 3 RBs and then took one in the first round. D-line is a huge question mark. Traded our first round pick next year for a 2nd round this year. And while I like the Brian Dawkins signing, the reality is he'll be 36 before week 6 and he signed a 5 year deal.

Is there anything else?


YEAH YEAH

RAH RAH

WE'RE #1 WE'RE #1

In-com-plete
08-11-2009, 11:46 AM
If it's such a strain on you to pull for your team then pick someone else. It's no one in the Broncos' organization's fault that you have such unrealistic and unreasonable expectations. That is no one's fault but your own.

Fans like you are the reason so many coaches over the league get fired prematurely. Don't know the meaning of the word rebuilding and would rather run the guy out of town because he's not producing wins at the pace you would prefer then let him build his product.

Like I said to another poster earlier, Shanny is never coming back and McDaniels will be here for at least the next 3 years so at this point it's either time to get with it or get out.

It's not about bringing Shanahan back. I'm not pissed because Shanny was fired. Not at all.

But I just want to say right now. That I'm sorry to all the coaches out there that have been fired BECAUSE OF ME.

LOL

BroncoWave
08-11-2009, 11:48 AM
It's not about bringing Shanahan back. I'm not pissed because Shanny was fired. Not at all.

But I just want to say right now. That I'm sorry to all the coaches out there that have been fired BECAUSE OF ME.

LOL

I said FANS LIKE YOU, not YOU.

Reading comprehension FTW!!!

In-com-plete
08-11-2009, 11:51 AM
I said FANS LIKE YOU, not YOU.

Reading comprehension FTW!!!

Fans get coaches fired? :cricket:

BroncoWave
08-11-2009, 11:57 AM
Fans get coaches fired? :cricket:

Maybe not the sole reason but you have to be blind if you don't think pressure from fans factors into it. Unfortunately we live in an "I want everything right now" world and too few people have the patience to let things work out.

T.K.O.
08-11-2009, 12:20 PM
And I don't pay attention to the rah rah, yeah yeah, homer crowd that praises every single move this team makes. So I was commented on Tneds first post in this thread. (He was asking for opinions on what everyone thinks about the current state of Broncos nation):



Then I replied to Mr. LOL who thinks I have a biased opinion. LOL

And now, I'm replying to your post since I'm "yeah you know who you are".

The reality is, we lost a pro-bowl QB and replaced him with a below average QB. We're switching from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Champ's no longer the best corner in the league. Marshall's pissed at McCoachoftheyear and wants out. We signed like 3 RBs and then took one in the first round. D-line is a huge question mark. Traded our first round pick next year for a 2nd round this year. And while I like the Brian Dawkins signing, the reality is he'll be 36 before week 6 and he signed a 5 year deal.

Is there anything else?


YEAH YEAH

RAH RAH

WE'RE #1 WE'RE #1

i was'nt talking to you !:laugh:
i realize losing cutler was a bad thing but i just dont see how the rest of our offseason moves are bad.
did you think we were doomed when shanny hired robertson? when we got travis henry? when we got lelie ?javon walker? lost portis?
i mean c'mon every offseason has good moves and bad.its the nature of free agency.
no coach (or fan) has a crystal ball and can know what lies ahead,some players get hurt some get arrested and some hold out or refuse to play.
i just refuse to look at every move made this year as a negative....if that makes me a rah rah homer then so be it.
i think its just as realistic to look at the area's where we have likely improved than dwell on a couple of decisions that may end up hurting us.
no big deal.
i just hope mike nolan can field a better defense than we have had in years that will actually give us a shot at making the playoffs.
cutler is gone ...he was'nt going to get us very far w/o fixing many problems .
so at least some of the teams major issues are being addressed.

T.K.O.
08-11-2009, 12:42 PM
And I don't pay attention to the rah rah, yeah yeah, homer crowd that praises every single move this team makes. i dont know of anyone who thinks any team always makes great moves,its impossible


Then I replied to Mr. LOL who thinks I have a biased opinion. LOL .....you do,we all do

And now, I'm replying to your post since I'm "yeah you know who you are".actually i dont think i had read any of your posts until you responded to mine,but yes you appear to be

The reality is, we lost a pro-bowl QB and replaced him with a below average QB. well technically rivers should have been there instead,by a long shot.

We're switching from a 4-3 to a 3-4. since when is attempting to fix one of the worst defenses in the league a BAD thing?
Champ's no longer the best corner in the league. so we dont want the guy if he's 2nd or 3rd best? do go on.besides he is still considered a shut down corner and now has competition on the other side of the field which will only help him return to his 06' ways

Marshall's pissed at McCoachoftheyear and wants out. when did marshall ever say he was "pissed at mcD" ?he only said he is unhappy with his current contract,

We signed like 3 RBs and then took one in the first round. getting a top flight rb for the 1st time in years + bad move ?wow im glad your not coaching or scouting for the broncos.this move was obviously designed to help a team who had started a phone salesman down the stretch last year and take pressure off out "below average qb"(sounds like another smart move to me)


D-line is a huge question mark. what else is new ?

Traded our first round pick next year for a 2nd round this year. show me a team that wants to pay 4 1st rounders in 2 years !besides alphonso is widely considered 1st rnd talent so you could say we got 1st round talent for 2nd round money!right?

And while I like the Brian Dawkins signing, the reality is he'll be 36 before week 6 and he signed a 5 year deal.and if you know anything about contract negotiations it was to our benefit to extend the contract beyond his likely tenure ,and dawkins didnt go from awesome to crap in 6 months so whatever,his knowledge and attitude are worth every penny he gets our D needs guys like him because they are so used to getting walked over its pathetic and he can show our guys what a real D looks like!

is there anything else ?i guess you could find a team that is'nt comprised of losers ,has beens and bad choices ?

YEAH YEAH

RAH RAH

WE'RE #1 WE'RE #1

where we #1 last year ?

T.K.O.
08-11-2009, 01:05 PM
does this look like an old man to any of you guys ?http://photos.upi.com/topics-Philadelphia-Eagle-vs-Chicago-Bears/53c57cde3a74854d3838b88660c8368c/B-1.jpg
this was taken sept 28th last year.....i think he has a little gas left in the tank !:salute:

In-com-plete
08-11-2009, 01:36 PM
i was'nt talking to you !:laugh:
i realize losing cutler was a bad thing but i just dont see how the rest of our offseason moves are bad.
did you think we were doomed when shanny hired robertson? when we got travis henry? when we got lelie ?javon walker? lost portis?
i mean c'mon every offseason has good moves and bad.its the nature of free agency.
no coach (or fan) has a crystal ball and can know what lies ahead,some players get hurt some get arrested and some hold out or refuse to play.
i just refuse to look at every move made this year as a negative....if that makes me a rah rah homer then so be it.
i think its just as realistic to look at the area's where we have likely improved than dwell on a couple of decisions that may end up hurting us.
no big deal.
i just hope mike nolan can field a better defense than we have had in years that will actually give us a shot at making the playoffs.
cutler is gone ...he was'nt going to get us very far w/o fixing many problems .
so at least some of the teams major issues are being addressed.

Look, I get the whole "Let's see how it plays out" thing. I get that everyone's excited about the season and thinks the Broncos are great. It's just, I don't see it. Not with how everything went down this offseason.

------------------------------------------------

Now this is the 3rd offseason I've been pissed. The first came back in the '04 offseason when we kept Lenny Walls instead of Kelly Herndon, drafted Clarrett and 3 corners while ignoring what was clearly this teams biggest hole, the D-Line.

The 2nd, was when we drafted Cutler instead of (Ngata) addressing what clearly held us back in that AFCCG, D-Line. Not to mention, how that whole QB situation played out and how the team gave up on the season that year. Although that's not what I'm talking about here. It's offseasons that have really pissed me off.

Now this is the 3rd one. And those first 2, it's like, I could sit here and say: "See. It played out bad for the Broncos. I was pissed because the team was making what I felt were the wrong moves at the time and they ended up being just as I thought. Bad for the team."

So I'll sit here and "see how it all plays out" while watching every game, shelling out tons of money while going to a couple/few and just take this BS like the fan of a losing team should.

Ravage!!!
08-11-2009, 01:44 PM
does this look like an old man to any of you guys ?http://photos.upi.com/topics-Philadelphia-Eagle-vs-Chicago-Bears/53c57cde3a74854d3838b88660c8368c/B-1.jpg
this was taken sept 28th last year.....i think he has a little gas left in the tank !:salute:

what are you showing? A missed attempt by Dawkins to jump in front of a TD pass against the eagles? This is your choice to show he still has something in the tank??? This confuses me.

T.K.O.
08-11-2009, 01:52 PM
NO,the point is "old men cant fly !"
and the good news is i think orton threw that TD !:D

silkamilkamonico
08-11-2009, 01:56 PM
So I'll sit here and "see how it all plays out" while watching every game, shelling out tons of money while going to a couple/few and just take this BS like the fan of a losing team should.

I try and look at it the best way I can. Let's be real, if Shanahan wasn't fired and Denver is trying to progress from the team they had last year, were an 8-8 team at best. And that's with the explosive offense and Cutler.

The organization needed a change that starts from the top.

If building a complete team needs we had to sacrifice our offense, than so be it.

We weren't winning anything of importance with it anyways.

NightTrainLayne
08-11-2009, 02:04 PM
NO,the point is "old men cant fly !"
and the good news is i think orton threw that TD !:D

:laugh: I was trying to figure out why the Hell you posted a Bears TD against Dawkins. .. :smh: :lol:

T.K.O.
08-11-2009, 02:08 PM
:laugh: I was trying to figure out why the Hell you posted a Bears TD against Dawkins. .. :smh: :lol:

well it looks like the td was actually "on" the cb and dawkins just flew in at the last minute to get in the picture....:laugh:

Lonestar
08-11-2009, 03:29 PM
Look, I get the whole "Let's see how it plays out" thing. I get that everyone's excited about the season and thinks the Broncos are great. It's just, I don't see it. Not with how everything went down this offseason.

------------------------------------------------

Now this is the 3rd offseason I've been pissed. The first came back in the '04 offseason when we kept Lenny Walls instead of Kelly Herndon, drafted Clarrett and 3 corners while ignoring what was clearly this teams biggest hole, the D-Line.


The 2nd, was when we drafted Cutler instead of (Ngata) addressing what clearly held us back in that AFCCG, D-Line. Not to mention, how that whole QB situation played out and how the team gave up on the season that year. Although that's not what I'm talking about here. It's offseasons that have really pissed me off.

Now this is the 3rd one. And those first 2, it's like, I could sit here and say: "See. It played out bad for the Broncos. I was pissed because the team was making what I felt were the wrong moves at the time and they ended up being just as I thought. Bad for the team."

So I'll sit here and "see how it all plays out" while watching every game, shelling out tons of money while going to a couple/few and just take this BS like the fan of a losing team should.



Hey I was part of that club also in fact almost every year when the draft rolled around I thought for sure we would really address needs MAJOR ones instead of WR and CB every other year..

but we never addressed DL save price on day one save for a couple of folks that never had any impact whatsoever in one case never played a down for us..


but this off season we have seen sweeping changes in almost everything except OLINE, WR and TE's.. and there is nothing wrong with that.. I would have rather had jay stay IF he was going to embrace the policy of hitting the open man instead of thinking going deep was his only option.. but beyond that I have like everything Josh has done..


solid coaching staff..
revamping attitudes..
putting everyone on notice their job is not secure..
cutting most of the deadwood from defense..
bringing in solid DB's with experience to teach our newbies..
not drafting folks to fail..
making sure those folks they brought in fit the plan..


I wished he would have paid more attention to the DL during the draft, but I have to assume that the coaching cabal knows what they are looking for.. I know one thing that he is not an advocate of bringing in someone to have them fail..

Ravage!!!
08-11-2009, 03:31 PM
Lol

Elevation inc
08-12-2009, 01:30 AM
And I don't pay attention to the rah rah, yeah yeah, homer crowd that praises every single move this team makes. So I was commented on Tneds first post in this thread. (He was asking for opinions on what everyone thinks about the current state of Broncos nation):



Then I replied to Mr. LOL who thinks I have a biased opinion. LOL

And now, I'm replying to your post since I'm "yeah you know who you are".

The reality is, we lost a pro-bowl QB and replaced him with a below average QB. We're switching from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Champ's no longer the best corner in the league. Marshall's pissed at McCoachoftheyear and wants out. We signed like 3 RBs and then took one in the first round. D-line is a huge question mark. Traded our first round pick next year for a 2nd round this year. And while I like the Brian Dawkins signing, the reality is he'll be 36 before week 6 and he signed a 5 year deal.

Is there anything else?


YEAH YEAH

RAH RAH

WE'RE #1 WE'RE #1


Since i know this is directed at me let me clarify for you since you seem to be uneasy with my posts.

the biased opinion was a bit in jest in response to your exuberant explanation of what transipred this off-season....

keep in mind though i dont discredit the fact your upset, but to go to the drastic side and act like your adrenaline was gonna make you do something seemed funny. hence the joke about going brandon marshall on somebody.

If i was really trying to personally attack you i would have done it in a non comical way to get my point across.

for me i agree with some things, Im upset cutler isnt here, im upset we didnt have a clue about draft value, im upset we dont have the goodmans but instead have xanders, im upset marshall is hurt, im reserved about our win loss potential.

But it certainly isnt enough to make me go brandon marshall(ha ha) on somebody....lol