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Tned
08-07-2009, 08:04 AM
Ok, we all know that we are only a week into training camp, so it's early.

One consistent thing we have heard from Orton's days in Chicago,"Orton isn't very good at the deep ball."

One consistent thing we have heard from training camp, "Orton has struggled whenever he attempts the deep ball."

One consistent thing from last night's scrimmage, "orton struggled throwing the deep ball."

Again, it was only a scrimmage, but Orton threw two pics last night (one report said three). Is it too early to be concerned?

Should Denver be bringing in any free agents, whether Vick (who will miss at least a third of the season, so wouldn't be an instant fix, if he was even a fit), Brian Griese, or another free agent QB?

Based on the first week of camp reports, Simms hasn't looked any better than Orton, and Brandstater is a long way from being ready to start (if he is ever ready to be an NFL starter).

The Broncos have a great line to run behind and pass block, they have a good corp of receivers (with or without Marshall), and a good to great stable of RB's. However, can they overcome Orton?

One of the hosts on 1510 AM this morning said, "will we find ourselves at mid-season wishing we had Cutler, and all his baggage, back under center?"

Ray Finkle
08-07-2009, 08:22 AM
Oh come on...

The deep ball is not thrown 50 times a game. Cutler himself was bad at it. Other than the score to Walker against Arizona, how many times did he ever hit the WR in stride?

Cutler forced his way out....Orton is here. The guy is learning a new system and the defense was constantly blitzing him last night. If it was Cutler under center last night, everyone would be giving hand jobs to the defense....

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 08:23 AM
"One of the hosts on 1510 AM this morning said, "will we find ourselves at mid-season wishing we had Cutler, and all his baggage, back under center?"

I have to admit...I'm REALLY sick and tired of every single self-appointed expert just flat out claiming to know that Orton is the worst QB ever. Much like every other "experts" comments on the situation...this is just plain unintelligent.

As far as the deep ball is concerned...there are quite a few QB's in the HoF that couldnt throw anything beyond 20 yards with any accuracy. I'm not worried.

LRtagger
08-07-2009, 08:23 AM
:tsk:

Ray Finkle
08-07-2009, 08:26 AM
Plummer blew on the deep ball....Brady is not a good deep ball thrower....

Cutler, Vick, Favre can throw the deep ball. How many titles do they have?

Dreadnought
08-07-2009, 08:26 AM
Huge concern for me. Simply huge. Whats worse is that there are no good options save for hoping and praying that the lights come on for Orton, and I am not optimistic about that at all. I wouldn't object to Brian Griese returning, but that says more about my confidence in Orton than it does about any real faith in Griese.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2009, 08:28 AM
you probably crapped on Harris last year as well....it's one freaking practice.

LRtagger
08-07-2009, 08:30 AM
My God people, they have only been practicing for a week.

Jebus.

Mike
08-07-2009, 08:31 AM
Brian Griese? Wash your mouth out, Tned. :tsk:

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 08:32 AM
Huge concern for me. Simply huge. Whats worse is that there are no good options save for hoping and praying that the lights come on for Orton, and I am not optimistic about that at all. I wouldn't object to Brian Griese returning, but that says more about my confidence in Orton than it does about any real faith in Griese.

Are you serious? One week of PRACTICE in a new sytem with players in and out of the lineup rotation and you and others are ready to quit on him?

But Marshall could be here dropping passes and everyone would excuse him and want to give him a huge contract. It becomes more and more pathetic being a Broncos fan lately and it has NOTHING to do with the team.

Dreadnought
08-07-2009, 08:34 AM
Nothing at all to do with this weeks practice, because you are all correct that it means dogcrap in the big scheme of things. I just don't think Kyle Orton is a first or even second tier NFL QB, based on past performance. I've also conceded that a new system, better O-line, far better receiving corps, and change of scenery may help him enormously. But for me not to be deeply concerned would be stupid and/or myopic; the guy has a crappy track record with the Bears and thats really all we have to go on at this point.


But Marshall could be here dropping passes and everyone would excuse him and want to give him a huge contract. It becomes more and more pathetic being a Broncos fan lately and it has NOTHING to do with the team.

Hell would freeze over before I advocated a huge contract for B-Marsh

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 08:38 AM
Nothing at all to do with this weeks practice, because you are all correct that it means dogcrap in the big scheme of things. I just don't think Kyle Orton is a first or even second tier NFL QB, based on past performance. I've also conceded that a new system, better O-line, far better receiving corps, and change of scenery may help him enormously. But for me not to be deeply concerned would be stupid and/or myopic; the guy has a crappy track record with the Bears and thats really all we have to go on at this point.


Please elaborate

Ray Finkle
08-07-2009, 08:40 AM
Nothing at all to do with this weeks practice, because you are all correct that it means dogcrap in the big scheme of things. I just don't think Kyle Orton is a first or even second tier NFL QB, based on past performance. I've also conceded that a new system, better O-line, far better receiving corps, and change of scenery may help him enormously. But for me not to be deeply concerned would be stupid and/or myopic; the guy has a crappy track record with the Bears and thats really all we have to go on at this point.



Hell would freeze over before I advocated a huge contract for B-Marsh

He freaking won games with a piss poor offense. Bad OC, OL, and WR's and you think he is the same player. I am not comparing him but if you rational sticks, Steve Young was the worst QB of all time while with the Bucs. This is not a one to one compassion. Evaluate all the variables before you make a shotgun blast statement like that.

If Orton blows this year and Cutler has the same statistical year, you have a semi valid argument....

Tned
08-07-2009, 08:42 AM
Nothing at all to do with this weeks practice, because you are all correct that it means dogcrap in the big scheme of things. I just don't think Kyle Orton is a first or even second tier NFL QB, based on past performance. I've also conceded that a new system, better O-line, far better receiving corps, and change of scenery may help him enormously. But for me not to be deeply concerned would be stupid and/or myopic; the guy has a crappy track record with the Bears and thats really all we have to go on at this point.


Chicago didn't trade Orton PLUS two first round picks for Cutler, because Orton was a start ready to bloom.

I think everyone knows that while Orton 'might' become a good system QB, he is not an overly talented QB. He cannot carry the team on his shoulders.

To those 'irritated' by the thread topic, it's a topic that needs discussion. Orton and the Broncos are boo'd in a public practice. There is clearly a lot of concern and discontent about the state of the Broncos.

Tned
08-07-2009, 08:43 AM
Here is some video from the scrimmage last night:

9GpukIWC6Uk

Dreadnought
08-07-2009, 08:45 AM
Please elaborate

Lifetime QB rating of 71.1, and even in his best year (i.e. last year) he couldn't break the 80.0 threshold, which to me is the bare minimum acceptable. Lifetime YPA of 5.8. That is beyond pitiful. Completion percentage @ 55%, which is good by 1965 standards but pretty awful now.

Can he improve on those? Could be; I think this will be a better situation for him here. I sure as Hell won't bet the mortgage on the guy though. Donovan McNabb had numbers almost similar his first couple of years in the league and he evolved into one of the top passers in the NFL, especially once he stoppped running so much so its always possible.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2009, 08:46 AM
Chicago didn't trade Orton PLUS two first round picks for Cutler, because Orton was a start ready to bloom.

I think everyone knows that while Orton 'might' become a good system QB, he is not an overly talented QB. He cannot carry the team on his shoulders.

To those 'irritated' by the thread topic, it's a topic that needs discussion. Orton and the Broncos are boo'd in a public practice. There is clearly a lot of concern and discontent about the state of the Broncos.

go talk to some of the fans that were there.....I trust Socal over what yahoo or Florio posts. We he booed on the two picks? Yes but it wasn't like he was booed every step he took.

The team traded a drunkard, diabetic, anti social QB with talent for a team focused QB with not so much talent. You want to pee your pants in anger after a few practices and 1 scrimmage? Wow....

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 08:47 AM
Chicago didn't trade Orton PLUS two first round picks for Cutler, because Orton was a start ready to bloom.

I think everyone knows that while Orton 'might' become a good system QB, he is not an overly talented QB. He cannot carry the team on his shoulders.

To those 'irritated' by the thread topic, it's a topic that needs discussion. Orton and the Broncos are boo'd in a public practice. There is clearly a lot of concern and discontent about the state of the Broncos.

I dont know...Brady and Brees doe pretty well as system QB's with mediocre arm strength and overall physical talent.

ursamajor
08-07-2009, 08:50 AM
He freaking won games with a piss poor offense. Bad OC, OL, and WR's and you think he is the same player. I am not comparing him but if you rational sticks, Steve Young was the worst QB of all time while with the Bucs. This is not a one to one compassion. Evaluate all the variables before you make a shotgun blast statement like that.

If Orton blows this year and Cutler has the same statistical year, you have a semi valid argument....

Funny Mortensen who just sat in on a Bears practice said that Bennett looks like the guy the Bears thought he would be when they drafted them, and also that Cutler will thrive in Chicago, and his production will not drop.

CCCCCRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZZYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!

Ray Finkle
08-07-2009, 08:51 AM
Funny Mortensen who just sat in on a Bears practice said that Bennett looks like the guy the Bears thought he would be when they drafted them, and also that Cutler will thrive in Chicago, and his production will not drop.

CCCCCRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZZYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!

Same Mort that claimed Matt Jones would be an elite WR?

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 08:51 AM
Funny Mortensen who just sat in on a Bears practice said that Bennett looks like the guy the Bears thought he would be when they drafted them, and also that Cutler will thrive in Chicago, and his production will not drop.

CCCCCRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZZYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!

Well shit...if Mortensen said it...it must be scripture

Tned
08-07-2009, 09:11 AM
go talk to some of the fans that were there.....I trust Socal over what yahoo or Florio posts. We he booed on the two picks? Yes but it wasn't like he was booed every step he took.

The team traded a drunkard, diabetic, anti social QB with talent for a team focused QB with not so much talent. You want to pee your pants in anger after a few practices and 1 scrimmage? Wow....

Did I say I pee'd my pants? NO. It's a message board, and things are pretty boring if no discussion takes place.

Why do some fans feel it is a personal affront if someone posts a question or opposing opinion -- fell the need to lash out when they disagree?

I've never understood that one.

MOtorboat
08-07-2009, 09:13 AM
Funny Mortensen who just sat in on a Bears practice said that Bennett looks like the guy the Bears thought he would be when they drafted them, and also that Cutler will thrive in Chicago, and his production will not drop.

So, they are getting a third-round wide receiver-production out of a third-round wide receiver? Shocking.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2009, 09:19 AM
Did I say I pee'd my pants? NO. It's a message board, and things are pretty boring if no discussion takes place.

Why do some fans feel it is a personal affront if someone posts a question or opposing opinion -- fell the need to lash out when they disagree?

I've never understood that one.

No but you are worrying after one practice. I spoke with some OMer's after the practice last night and they said it was not as bad as what was reported or video taped. The offense had no idea what the defense was going to throw at them. They also had a conservative game plan.

Again, if Cutler was at the helm and played the same way, people would be raving about the defense....

Tned
08-07-2009, 09:22 AM
So, they are getting a third-round wide receiver-production out of a third-round wide receiver? Shocking.

No, I think they are saying that like is often the case with a mid-round pick, he isn't a sure enough thing to go in the first round or two, but you might see something that indicates he has first/second round talent in someone you pick in the third or fourth round.

Kind of like when Shanahan picked Royal, and he said that of all the WR's drafted, Royal had the greatest ability to get seperation and while it might take some time, he could be a very good WR.

Sometimes you draft someone in the spot that the 'market' indicates he should go, but you 'hope' that what your scouts have seen is correct and that he will wind up playing much better than his draft position.

Take Alphonso Smith. He was drafted in the second, but we gave up a first to get him, because McD believed he had first round talent.

Tned
08-07-2009, 09:23 AM
No but you are worrying after one practice. I spoke with some OMer's after the practice last night and they said it was not as bad as what was reported or video taped. The offense had no idea what the defense was going to throw at them. They also had a conservative game plan.

Again, if Cutler was at the helm and played the same way, people would be raving about the defense....

No, I'm not worrying after one practice, I am creating a topic for discussion. Two seperate things. I also highlighted some comments that have been made in camp reports, including on the OM.

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 09:29 AM
No, I think they are saying that like is often the case with a mid-round pick, he isn't a sure enough thing to go in the first round or two, but you might see something that indicates he has first/second round talent in someone you pick in the third or fourth round.

Kind of like when Shanahan picked Royal, and he said that of all the WR's drafted, Royal had the greatest ability to get seperation and while it might take some time, he could be a very good WR.

Sometimes you draft someone in the spot that the 'market' indicates he should go, but you 'hope' that what your scouts have seen is correct and that he will wind up playing much better than his draft position.

Take Alphonso Smith. He was drafted in the second, but we gave up a first to get him, because McD believed he had first round talent.



Most...if not all...teams thought Fonzie was a first round talent...it was merely his height that pushed him into the 2nd round.

If what we've seen from him in a week of TC is a sign of things to come...it looks like McD...believe it or not...might have made a good choice.

Blasphemy...I know

Ray Finkle
08-07-2009, 09:30 AM
No, I'm not worrying after one practice, I am creating a topic for discussion. Two seperate things. I also highlighted some comments that have been made in camp reports, including on the OM.

I disagree, by the title alone, you have created an anti-Orton thread. Your title shows zero confidence.

If you started it with "Potential QB options" it would have a different tone.

MOtorboat
08-07-2009, 09:34 AM
Tom Brandstater, FTW

frenchfan
08-07-2009, 09:46 AM
I'm not concerned yet...
Let's give time to our O to adjust to McD system...
We'll know more after a few games.

It's a no brainer that Orton is no Cutler... He is by far less talented than Jay...
Anyway, how many QB in the NFL has the potential Jay has?
Not too many IMO... (BTW, Brady, Brees don't have the skills Jay has, but are yet really better QB).
Jay has also some issues to solve (reads, decision making and handle the pressure of the game).

And after all, the deal was done... Jay is not our QB anymore... Welcome Kyle... I just hope he is the system QB McD thinks he is...
Who cares so much about deep ball?
Montana was not so great at that... He has 4 rings..
Brady is not so great at that... He has 3 rings...
Not so many QB are great at deep ball anyway...
We went to the AFC championship with a QB who wasn't great at the deep ball too (remember Jake The Snake?).

And... It's just camp... I prefer to see mistakes now than during the season... IMO Kyle learnt a lot yesterday... I guess you can be sure McD will make him understand his mistakes ;)

I understand your concern Tned... But relax... Only time will tell... We don't have many options anyway... Don't expect us to sign Vick or another QB.
So... If Orton sucks, just prepare youself to a long boring season :D

:beer:

Tned
08-07-2009, 10:02 AM
I disagree, by the title alone, you have created an anti-Orton thread. Your title shows zero confidence.

If you started it with "Potential QB options" it would have a different tone.

I created a thread to spur discussion. I actually still remain optimistic about our ability to win immediately.


Most...if not all...teams thought Fonzie was a first round talent...it was merely his height that pushed him into the 2nd round.

If what we've seen from him in a week of TC is a sign of things to come...it looks like McD...believe it or not...might have made a good choice.

Blasphemy...I know

But, they weren't willing to ride that optimism to the point of using a first on him. I agree, from what we have seen, he sounds good, but my point was simply that saying the Bears expect 3rd round production from Bennet, because he was drafted in the 3rd, is a little silly, just like saying that the Broncos only expect 2nd round production from Smith, because he was drafted in the 2nd (I know we gave up a first, so we expect more, but if you only base expectations on draft position, we should expect no more than 2nd round production).

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 10:08 AM
But, they weren't willing to ride that optimism to the point of using a first on him. I agree, from what we have seen, he sounds good, but my point was simply that saying the Bears expect 3rd round production from Bennet, because he was drafted in the 3rd, is a little silly, just like saying that the Broncos only expect 2nd round production from Smith, because he was drafted in the 2nd (I know we gave up a first, so we expect more, but if you only base expectations on draft position, we should expect no more than 2nd round production).


I understand, but do we really expect them to publicly say that Bennett is playing horribly and we're screwed at the WR spot? or, bennett is showing us his 3rd round talent on a regular basis? I doubt it.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I guess I just dont expect alot from a short WR with little speed. Based on his draft location by a team desperate for WR's...I doubt their expectations are high either. but I dont expect them to bash him.

Slick
08-07-2009, 10:27 AM
Orton's footwork looked sloppy and he didn't throw well on the move from what I could tell in the youtube video, but I won't flame him today. We all know that throwing on the run won't be his strong suit. Hopefully as he gets more comfortable he'll be a little sharper with some of those intermediate throws. I doubt McDaniel's will ask him to throw deep often.

Thanks for posting the vid Tned.

rationalfan
08-07-2009, 10:33 AM
Orton's footwork looked sloppy and he didn't throw well on the move from what I could tell in the youtube video, but I won't flame him today. We all know that throwing on the run won't be his strong suit. Hopefully as he gets more comfortable he'll be a little sharper with some of those intermediate throws. I doubt McDaniel's will ask him to throw deep often.

Thanks for posting the vid Tned.

exactly. most concerning was that orton appeared to be throwing off his back foot, even when there wasn't a pass rush. that's not good; a guaranteed interception waiting to happen. assuming mcdaniels is the QB guru he's been advertised as, these are mistakes that should be fixed. Orton also seemed to struggle making the reads - throwing into double coverage, reacting just a little too late to open receivers.

The good news, these are fixable problems that should come from comfortability in the system. of course, some quarterbacks never get comfortable.

Otherwise, i'd like to hear more about how the defense was. in that brief clip, it seemed surprisingly capable and very aware of where the ball was. good things.

ManchesterBroncoLUHG
08-07-2009, 10:35 AM
Win or lose, Cutler or Orton, watching that video has got me excited that the season is only round the corner and can't come quick enough.

dogfish
08-07-2009, 10:37 AM
I disagree, by the title alone, you have created an anti-Orton thread. Your title shows zero confidence.

If you started it with "Potential QB options" it would have a different tone.



well shit, T, in the future i guess you better run your thread titles by this guy before posting them. . . .

Ravage!!!
08-07-2009, 10:49 AM
well shit, T, in the future i guess you better run your thread titles by this guy before posting them. . . .

If he thinks this is anti-Orton, he hasn't been around the message boards after a game yet. :eek:

Dreadnought
08-07-2009, 10:53 AM
If he thinks this is anti-Orton, he hasn't been around the message boards after a game yet. :eek:

Ray Finkle is a pretty veteran poster from the Mane - I'm guessing he's seen his share of pissed off people after a game :D

Ravage!!!
08-07-2009, 10:53 AM
Again, if Cutler was at the helm and played the same way, people would be raving about the defense....

Yeah... because we KNOW Cutler is good. If a player/defense plays well against a good player, thats a sign of good things. If a player that is already considered marginal talent, throws INTs against a defense that was near the bottom of the NFL last season, thats a reason to make you scratch your head.....first open practice or not.

Ravage!!!
08-07-2009, 10:55 AM
Ray Finkle is a pretty veteran poster from the Mane - I'm guessing he's seen his share of pissed off people after a game :D

Fair enough.. not really putting down the poster as much as the sentiment behind the comment.

Ravage!!!
08-07-2009, 10:58 AM
No but you are worrying after one practice. I spoke with some OMer's after the practice last night and they said it was not as bad as what was reported or video taped. The offense had no idea what the defense was going to throw at them. They also had a conservative game plan.


Sorry to use this quote again, but two things you said here that actually counter your arguments defending Orton (even if early)

1) Uhmmmmm...... isn't he going to see that during the game days???

2) wouldn't that be easier to absorb, understand, and implement if that were the case?

LRtagger
08-07-2009, 11:01 AM
Simms commented after the scrimmage last night that the offense was running the same plays they had been running all week and the defense was jumping routes and recognizing plays early. Just something to consider.

Also, most people have been saying Orton looks great in 7-7 drills and has struggled a bit more in 11-11 drills. My guess is he is still learning front 7 reads and blitzes and is having a tough time adjusting to pressure while still making the proper reads...this IMO will come with time (at least I hope so).

I am not ready to give up on the season just yet. Even after all of TC and preseason last year, no one was predicting our offense would put up 114 points in the first three games.

Dreadnought
08-07-2009, 11:03 AM
Simms commented after the scrimmage last night that the offense was running the same plays they had been running all week and the defense was jumping routes and recognizing plays early. Just something to consider.

Also, most people have been saying Orton looks great in 7-7 drills and has struggled a bit more in 11-11 drills. My guess is he is still learning front 7 reads and blitzes and is having a tough time adjusting to pressure while still making the proper reads...this IMO will come with time (at least I hope so).

I am not ready to give up on the season just yet. Even after all of TC and preseason last year, no one was predicting our offense would put up 114 points in the first three games.

Agreed - and some of us (me included) thought after TC and preseason that the defense would be improved over '06 too :rolleyes:

GEM
08-07-2009, 11:05 AM
exactly. most concerning was that orton appeared to be throwing off his back foot, even when there wasn't a pass rush. that's not good; a guaranteed interception waiting to happen. assuming mcdaniels is the QB guru he's been advertised as, these are mistakes that should be fixed. Orton also seemed to struggle making the reads - throwing into double coverage, reacting just a little too late to open receivers.

The good news, these are fixable problems that should come from comfortability in the system. of course, some quarterbacks never get comfortable.

Otherwise, i'd like to hear more about how the defense was. in that brief clip, it seemed surprisingly capable and very aware of where the ball was. good things.

I said to my dad in the middle of practice...and here we've all been worrying about the defense this offseason, perhaps we're worried about the wrong side of the ball. 4 of the guys sitting around us agreed. Started a pretty good discussion.

Secondary looked VERY much improved. If they gun for the ball like they did last night we should be much improved on INT's and forced fumble recoveries from last season. I can't stop raving about Alphonso Smith.

DLine was getting pressure. DJ Williams was bringing pressure. It looks like they have really zeroed in on the issue of the pass rush. Ayers is going to bring a lot to the table in that department. He was all over Harris behind the LOS.

And to those saying that the comments from those of us who went are basing our whole opinion of Orton on one scrimmage. No, I hope last night was just a bad practice. He is not going to command a long ball. He can be very successful dinking and dunking 10-20 yarders. I think that is where our bread and butter will be. It may also play a part in why Marshall is unhappy. He is NOT going to get the yardage he's been used to. What I did see from last night though, our WR corps in this system can survive without Marshall. It isn't ideal, but very manageable.

MasterShake
08-07-2009, 11:34 AM
go talk to some of the fans that were there.....I trust Socal over what yahoo or Florio posts. We he booed on the two picks? Yes but it wasn't like he was booed every step he took.

The team traded a drunkard, diabetic, anti social QB with talent for a team focused QB with not so much talent. You want to pee your pants in anger after a few practices and 1 scrimmage? Wow....

I was there and honestly the boos seemed lighthearted. During punt return drills Royal muffed one and got booed, no biggie. Our D looked good last night plain and simple which is great news for us. One thing I'll give orton is that the plays he did make showed quick decisions. I won't worry until the seasons over. Simms looked pretty sharp, too.

underrated29
08-07-2009, 11:35 AM
Yes it is. If you remember i even let my last camp report with the kyle has looked good and what not but dont be mistaken thinking he the loss of jay was just a small bump in the road.

And so far so true. I still like kyle still think he will do well here, also put that in my last report. But the fact doesnt change that we downgraded the most important position on our offense big time. I think Kyle will be pretty good to above servicable this year. And next year if he hasnt grasped things and taken to form from Mcd superior QB coaching (so we have heard) then i think they will get a replacement.


But..... Remember, our qbs best friend will be the RB, and boy o boy when he gets knowshon in there. Kyles stats will go up big time as the defense MUST respect knowshon.


Side topic- but we should make a poll on how many people are going to have to eat their hat after Jay doesnt fail miserably and doesnt throw pick 6s every pass and all the other garbage that they spew.

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 11:45 AM
I didnt see the whole practice, but based on the YouTube snip we've seen...it also looks like Kyle was throwing into pretty good coverage. I didnt see too many plays where guys were wide open. The idea that the defense knew what was coming makes sense.

nevcraw
08-07-2009, 11:48 AM
Hmmmm -

Cassell was a lot worse last year in Pre-season than Orton has been so far... They were ready to burn him in effegee. Now look!
Even if Orton blows it big time - there a no fixes availble.. None. Not Vick, Not Farve.. NO ONE! This is the guy for atleast this year come hell or high water..

At this point though - It is pretty silly to worry about the rarely used deep ball and a week 1 scrimmage..

MOtorboat
08-07-2009, 11:56 AM
Hmmmm -

Cassell was a lot worse last year in Pre-season than Orton has been so far... They were ready to burn him in effegee. Now look!
Even if Orton blows it big time - there a no fixes availble.. None. Not Vick, Not Farve.. NO ONE! This is the guy for atleast this year come hell or high water..

At this point though - It is pretty silly to worry about the rarely used deep ball and a week 1 scrimmage..

Noted...but Cassell was also the backup on the depth chart. But, you are right, it is silly to think that Orton's performance yesterday has much bearing on the Bengals game.

Northman
08-07-2009, 11:56 AM
Im done, Orton failed in scrimmage. Season over.

Tned
08-07-2009, 12:43 PM
Hmmmm -

Cassell was a lot worse last year in Pre-season than Orton has been so far... They were ready to burn him in effegee. Now look!
Even if Orton blows it big time - there a no fixes availble.. None. Not Vick, Not Farve.. NO ONE! This is the guy for atleast this year come hell or high water..

At this point though - It is pretty silly to worry about the rarely used deep ball and a week 1 scrimmage..

Cassel had the benefit of spending years (can't remember how many) as the backup, so he knew the system. Orton is still learning, although the good news if you can believe coaches (some on here never did when it was Shanny or one of his coaches), Orton has done a great job of applying himself and learning the offense.

Tned
08-07-2009, 12:44 PM
Im done, Orton failed in scrimmage. Season over.

Ok, your fan card has been revoked. ;)

silkamilkamonico
08-07-2009, 12:48 PM
The deep ball is obnly going to come once the short game develops in Mcdaniels offense. That's been the Patriot way ever since Belichek started there. Brady did nothing but throw screens, and short passes his first few years. That gradually opened up the mid field throws, which in turn opened up down the field.

Anyone that saw the scrimmage, did Denver throw alot of screens of sorts, whether it was RB/WR/FB/TE?

Ray Finkle
08-07-2009, 12:51 PM
Sorry to use this quote again, but two things you said here that actually counter your arguments defending Orton (even if early)

1) Uhmmmmm...... isn't he going to see that during the game days???

2) wouldn't that be easier to absorb, understand, and implement if that were the case?

1. Thanks for the background Dreadnought!


Let's just use Cutler again.....he had experience in the system before he was the starter. He didn't just get OTA's and a week of live training camp. There are going to be struggles by Orton, Simms, and the rest of the offense since they are trying to assimilate at game speed. If there are this bad against the Bengals in week one, you have a valid statement....

How would it be easier to absorb when the defense is going full boar at you and know what routes your WR's are running?

For example, you're playing lacrosse and come join a new team that runs a motion offense. You haven't run this before so there are going to rough spots when your practice scrimmage at first. It takes several months of game speed to perfect.

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 01:05 PM
All I know is the Mastermind Shanahan and the Prodigal Son Cutler havent produced results for 3 years. People here dont even want to give McD that long to prove anything. Once again, it comes down to change and how people fear it. if it's not the same mediocre team with a .500 record and 4000 yard passer, nobody wants anything to do with it. Fine...go root for the Bears or the Rams and leave the disappointment and/or acievements to those of us that support the team and have faith in those that know more than we do

nevcraw
08-07-2009, 01:07 PM
Noted...but Cassell was also the backup on the depth chart. But, you are right, it is silly to think that Orton's performance yesterday has much bearing on the Bengals game.

But Cassell had more experience in this offense before starting.

nevcraw
08-07-2009, 01:09 PM
Cassel had the benefit of spending years (can't remember how many) as the backup, so he knew the system. Orton is still learning, although the good news if you can believe coaches (some on here never did when it was Shanny or one of his coaches), Orton has done a great job of applying himself and learning the offense.


Yes - that's my point.. orton has played this for how long.. and he is doing ok..

dogfish
08-07-2009, 01:10 PM
The deep ball is obnly going to come once the short game develops in Mcdaniels offense. That's been the Patriot way ever since Belichek started there. Brady did nothing but throw screens, and short passes his first few years. That gradually opened up the mid field throws, which in turn opened up down the field.




that, and having randy moss. . . there's a reason brady had a career high yards per completion in 2008, and the reason wears #81. . . .

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 01:12 PM
that, and having randy moss. . . there's a reason brady had a career high yards per completion in 2008, and the reason wears #81. . . .

Orton's reason wears #19

Tned
08-07-2009, 01:13 PM
All I know is the Mastermind Shanahan and the Prodigal Son Cutler havent produced results for 3 years. People here dont even want to give McD that long to prove anything. Once again, it comes down to change and how people fear it. if it's not the same mediocre team with a .500 record and 4000 yard passer, nobody wants anything to do with it. Fine...go root for the Bears or the Rams and leave the disappointment and/or acievements to those of us that support the team and have faith in those that know more than we do

Isn't three years around the average tenure for a new head coach?

That's one thing about change, and one reason that some probably fear it. Most new NFL coaches are two and done or three and done, then they bring in a new head coach, go in a new direction, and after two to three years, replace that guy.

So, while it is true that some of the problems are probably related to fearing change, that is at least in part because you had two very long tenured coaches of the Broncos (Reeves and Shanahan) with Philips sandwiched in between.

While it might very well have been time to move on (not even going to debate the pros or cons of that), the fact is that history tells us that the odds are that McDaniels will NOT be successful. Now, that doesn't mean that many of us 'hope' he fails (some do, because they are pissed about Shanny/Cutler, but I think they are a very small minority), but instead realize that the odds are against him.

It's not clear how much McD played in Brady's success, or for that matter, even Cassel's success. There are just more unkowns, then knows.

Having said all of that, as I posted earlier (in this thread, or the other one I created), I am very impressed with how McDaniels is running camp, based on what I have read and think the team will be more fundamentally sound then we have seen in recent years.

Tned
08-07-2009, 01:14 PM
that, and having randy moss. . . there's a reason brady had a career high yards per completion in 2008, and the reason wears #81. . . .

Which is also why we need a healthy Marshall on the field, even if the other guys are good.

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 01:19 PM
Isn't three years around the average tenure for a new head coach?

That's one thing about change, and one reason that some probably fear it. Most new NFL coaches are two and done or three and done, then they bring in a new head coach, go in a new direction, and after two to three years, replace that guy.

So, while it is true that some of the problems are probably related to fearing change, that is at least in part because you had two very long tenured coaches of the Broncos (Reeves and Shanahan) with Philips sandwiched in between.

While it might very well have been time to move on (not even going to debate the pros or cons of that), the fact is that history tells us that the odds are that McDaniels will NOT be successful. Now, that doesn't mean that many of us 'hope' he fails (some do, because they are pissed about Shanny/Cutler, but I think they are a very small minority), but instead realize that the odds are against him.

It's not clear how much McD played in Brady's success, or for that matter, even Cassel's success. There are just more unkowns, then knows.

Having said all of that, as I posted earlier (in this thread, or the other one I created), I am very impressed with how McDaniels is running camp, based on what I have read and think the team will be more fundamentally sound then we have seen in recent years.

I agree 100%. But tell this to those that think McD should be fired before coaching a single game or should immediately be dismissed if the team doesnt make the playoffs this year

dogfish
08-07-2009, 01:19 PM
Orton's reason wears #19



i hope so. . . eddie wasn't a huge downfield threat last year, but he certainly has the speed for it. . . i'd love to see him add more of that aspect to his game this year. . . i keep hearing that he's going to be used in the wes welker role, which is primarily working the underneath stuff out of the slot, so we'll see if mcdaniels takes advantage of the speed difference and uses eddie on more vertical stuff. . .

either way, i'm sure he's going to have a very productive year. . . but i don't necessarily expect us to air it out all that much. . . .

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 01:27 PM
i hope so. . . eddie wasn't a huge downfield threat last year, but he certainly has the speed for it. . . i'd love to see him add more of that aspect to his game this year. . . i keep hearing that he's going to be used in the wes welker role, which is primarily working the underneath stuff out of the slot, so we'll see if mcdaniels takes advantage of the speed difference and uses eddie on more vertical stuff. . .

either way, i'm sure he's going to have a very productive year. . . but i don't necessarily expect us to air it out all that much. . . .

I guess I was referring more to YAC. I see him in the Welker role...except Eddie is MUCH faster and shiftier. he'll still get the underneath stuff, but I expect him to get free of the LB's and safeties alot more than WW does

Tned
08-07-2009, 01:38 PM
I agree 100%. But tell this to those that think McD should be fired before coaching a single game or should immediately be dismissed if the team doesnt make the playoffs this year

I have and will continue to.

I was a little surprised by the Shanny firing, but could understand it.

I expected Bowlen to hire a defensive minded coach and let Turner and Bates mostly handle the offense, but the more I thought about it, I could buy into the McD move and Nolan the position coaches covering D (plus McDaniels worked on breaking down film and working with the D early on in NE).

I believe the Cutler move was a mistake and that regardless of how it started, McDaniels should have made a better effort, based on what we know about things, to repair the relationship, so this I classify as a 'mistake' this offseason.

So, while losing a potential 'franchise' QB bothers me, from what I have seen of McDaniels from the draft until training camp, he has a plan and is executing it -- he doesn't lack for confidence. So, the only question is whether or not his plan is a good one and will pay off. For that, only time will tell.

topscribe
08-07-2009, 01:40 PM
Lifetime QB rating of 71.1, and even in his best year (i.e. last year) he couldn't break the 80.0 threshold, which to me is the bare minimum acceptable. Lifetime YPA of 5.8. That is beyond pitiful. Completion percentage @ 55%, which is good by 1965 standards but pretty awful now.

Can he improve on those? Could be; I think this will be a better situation for him here. I sure as Hell won't bet the mortgage on the guy though. Donovan McNabb had numbers almost similar his first couple of years in the league and he evolved into one of the top passers in the NFL, especially once he stoppped running so much so its always possible.

"Lifetime"? Two seasons? C'mon. You are oversimplifying horribly. You are
including his rookie season and failing to take into consideration that Orton
played half of last season with a high ankle sprain. The first seven games, he
played well enough that pundits were mentioning him as a Pro Bowl possibility.
His average rating during that time was 91.0.

That was with an inferior O-line, WRs, and running game and after one whole
season actually on the field.

I have been reading reports all during camp as to how sharp Orton has been.
And we are going to PANIC over one practice? C'mon. :tsk:

Trust me, no one here knows Orton better than I do. I say that, not out of
any kind of arrogance, but because I have spent hours reviewing and studying
highlight (and lowlight) clips (64 in all) and reading about him everything I can
get my hands on over the last few months since the trade, and I have seen
several of his games. This course of study converted me from anti-Orton to
a positive view on him.

I'm not worried about one practice session after a whole week of camp . . . :coffee:

P.S. Yes, the Cutler trade was probably a mistake. But that is dead and gone.
Orton is here now, and I believe he can be a good quarterback.

-----

Jaded
08-07-2009, 01:41 PM
Way too early. It took Orton 4-years to develop in Chicago, it's going to take a while for him and Simms to develop into the player they can be here in Denver.

Whether they'll ever be a Championship caliber QB will take even longer to determine.......

Denver Native (Carol)
08-07-2009, 01:44 PM
I was there and honestly the boos seemed lighthearted. During punt return drills Royal muffed one and got booed, no biggie. Our D looked good last night plain and simple which is great news for us. One thing I'll give orton is that the plays he did make showed quick decisions. I won't worry until the seasons over. Simms looked pretty sharp, too.

Last night Vic Lombardi discussed Orton being booed, and definitely did not agree with it. He also stated that Orton can make quick decisions.

Also, up until this year, every quarterback after Elway was compared to Elway; however, we all know that Orton will be compared to Cutler, and every time Orton is not perfect, the Cutler backers will be heard. I choose to realize that everything here is not only new to Orton, but to every one on this team, and it will take time. It is not like Cutler stepping into Chicago, with the rest of the offense already knowing the offense. Every one here is learning a new offense. GIVE IT TIME

Tned
08-07-2009, 01:48 PM
Also, up until this year, every quarterback after Elway was compared to Elway; however, we all know that Orton will be compared to Cutler, and every time Orton is not perfect, the Cutler backers will be heard. I choose to realize that everything here is not only new to Orton, but to every one on this team, and it will take time. It is not like Cutler stepping into Chicago, with the rest of the offense already knowing the offense. Every one here is learning a new offense. GIVE IT TIME

I was thinking about this last night. We have finally moved out of the Elway shadow, and at least as long as McDaniels is here, QB's will be compared to Cutler and how he not only did in Denver, but also what he does in the future, because McDaniels traded him away.

CoachChaz
08-07-2009, 01:49 PM
I was thinking about this last night. We have finally moved out of the Elway shadow, and at least as long as McDaniels is here, QB's will be compared to Cutler and how he not only did in Denver, but also what he does in the future, because McDaniels traded him away.

Could be a good thing...especially if Orton does well and Cutler levels out

Tned
08-07-2009, 01:53 PM
Could be a good thing...especially if Orton does well and Cutler levels out

I hope so. I would love to see Cassel fall flat on his face, and Orton produce big time this year and down the road (although if it's this year, we may lose him in free agency), and then everyone talk about how McDaniels can take any QB and make him great.

That's a story line I could live with.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-07-2009, 01:54 PM
I was thinking about this last night. We have finally moved out of the Elway shadow, and at least as long as McDaniels is here, QB's will be compared to Cutler and how he not only did in Denver, but also what he does in the future, because McDaniels traded him away.

On McDaniels trading away Cutler, in the interview I posted with Bowlen talking to Scott & Al, Bowlen made it very clear that it was his choice to trade Cutler, not McDaniels choice.

Nature Boy
08-07-2009, 01:55 PM
Plummer blew on the deep ball....Brady is not a good deep ball thrower....

Cutler, Vick, Favre can throw the deep ball. How many titles do they have?


You're kidding right? There went his argument.

.

Tned
08-07-2009, 01:56 PM
On McDaniels trading away Cutler, in the interview I posted with Bowlen talking to Scott & Al, Bowlen made it very clear that it was his choice to trade Cutler, not McDaniels choice.

Even if that is 'technically' true, if McDaniels had been able to either prevent the relationship from imploding or repaired it, Bowlen wouldn't have had to make that choice.

It makes sense that Bowlen ultimately decided, considering when he fired Shanahan, Bowlen made a point of saying Jay was the future of the franchise (or something to that effect).

topscribe
08-07-2009, 02:01 PM
Even if that is 'technically' true, if McDaniels had been able to either prevent the relationship from imploding or repaired it, Bowlen wouldn't have had to make that choice.

It makes sense that Bowlen ultimately decided, considering when he fired Shanahan, Bowlen made a point of saying Jay was the future of the franchise (or something to that effect).

Of course, that was before Cutler snubbed Bowlen by refusing to return his
calls. If Cutler isn't going to talk to the owner, he certainly won't talk to the
head coach, will he? The fact is, the situation became intractable. If Bowlen
couldn't do anything, what was McDaniels supposed to do?

-----

Tned
08-07-2009, 02:06 PM
Of course, that was before Cutler snubbed Bowlen by refusing to return his
calls. If Cutler isn't going to talk to the owner, he certainly won't talk to the
head coach, will he? The fact is, the situation became intractable. If Bowlen
couldn't do anything, what was McDaniels supposed to do?

-----

That was way down the road. Prior to the "not taking calls" was the face to face meeting, prior to that was the conference call, prior to that was the statements refusal to make any comments to the press, then the carefully worded statement by the Broncos PR and then the next day McDaniels repeating the carefully worded, one-sentence statement.

There were the comments to the press about how, "Jakes my guys, but anyone can be traded if it makes the team better." We have all heard that once you say "but" you can ignore everything before it, McDaniels didn't have to throw the "but, anyone can be traded if it makes the team better."

He handled the situation BEFORE it became intractable, like a rookie head coach. That is plain for all to see.

Now, it is very possible that even if McDaniels had done everything right, and was more experienced and didn't come off like he was trying to win a pissing match, that Cutler still might have acted the way he did and forced Bowlen's hand, but we will never know, because McDaniels didn't do everything right.

silkamilkamonico
08-07-2009, 02:07 PM
You're kidding right? There went his argument.

.

Although his comment is a joke, Brady was a terrible deep ball thrower his first few years in the NFL. It took him about 3 seasons before he even got good at utilizing the mid level throws. Now he's exceptional at utilizing the entire field.

Denver Native (Carol)
08-07-2009, 02:13 PM
For those who have not heard this, it is good. Bowlen discusses releasing Shanahan, hiring McD, Cutler, and Marshall, and more.

http://www.fm1043thefan.com/channels/audioOnDemand/Story.aspx?ID=1121617

Jaded
08-07-2009, 02:13 PM
On McDaniels trading away Cutler, in the interview I posted with Bowlen talking to Scott & Al, Bowlen made it very clear that it was his choice to trade Cutler, not McDaniels choice.

Which trade? When McDaniels tried to trade him for a career backup, or when Bowlen got pissed when Cutler didn't return his phone calls?.......

Denver Native (Carol)
08-07-2009, 02:15 PM
Which trade? When McDaniels tried to trade him for a career backup, or when Bowlen got pissed when Cutler didn't return his phone calls?.......

We will probably never know if McDaniels TRIED TO TRADE HIM, or did nothing more than field a discussion on trading him - major difference.

silkamilkamonico
08-07-2009, 02:18 PM
Which trade? When McDaniels tried to trade him for a career backup, or when Bowlen got pissed when Cutler didn't return his phone calls?.......

Since it's already been stated that McDaniels indeed did NOT try and actually trade Cutler, it must be Bowlen.

I completely agree with that writer that brought up the point that Cutler basically traded himself when he refused to talk to Bowlen, and how Tom Brady ignoring Bob Kraft, Peyton Manning ignoring the Colts owner, or Roethlesberger ignoring the Steelers owners would never in a million years happen.

topscribe
08-07-2009, 02:18 PM
We will probably never know if McDaniels TRIED TO TRADE HIM, or did nothing more than field a discussion on trading him - major difference.

McDaniels and Xanders said they receive the call, and they listened. They said
it went no further than that. No evidence is obvious that it happened any
differently from what they said . . .

-----

Ray Finkle
08-07-2009, 02:18 PM
You're kidding right? There went his argument.

.

never had been.....

Jaded
08-07-2009, 02:19 PM
We will probably never know if McDaniels TRIED TO TRADE HIM, or did nothing more than field a discussion on trading him - major difference.

Good thing for Josh McDaniels, huh? Now Bowlen takes the blame.......

Tned
08-07-2009, 02:20 PM
And, once again we see the division among Broncos fans that has occurred this offseason. Fans all saw the same stuff, but different groups or completely set in their 'belief' about what happened.

topscribe
08-07-2009, 02:23 PM
And, once again we see the division among Broncos fans that has occurred this offseason. Fans all saw the same stuff, but different groups or completely set in their 'belief' about what happened.

We saw that from the Jake wars, didn't we? :lol:

-----

Tned
08-07-2009, 02:27 PM
We saw that from the Jake wars, didn't we? :lol:

-----

Yea, but in the Jake wars, you were on the 'correct' side of the argument! :laugh:

Seriously, one difference was that in the Jake wars, it was primarily about a player. The argument was about whether Jake was horrible or not, and whether he only performed well because of the system.

The disagreements this offseason are much deeper and more far reaching, between arguments over Bowlen's handling of the team, Shanny's firing, McDaniels hiring, Cutler's trade, players drafted, picks traded, etc., etc., etc.

topscribe
08-07-2009, 02:29 PM
Yea, but in the Jake wars, you were on the 'correct' side of the argument! :laugh:

Seriously, one difference was that in the Jake wars, it was primarily about a player. The argument was about whether Jake was horrible or not, and whether he only performed well because of the system.

The disagreements this offseason are much deeper and more far reaching, between arguments over Bowlen's handling of the team, Shanny's firing, McDaniels hiring, Cutler's trade, players drafted, picks traded, etc., etc., etc.

Nothing a simple 10-6 season wouldn't cure, right? ;)



P.S. Don't let Mtnman hear what you just said about me. :laugh:


-----

Dreadnought
08-07-2009, 02:32 PM
Yea, but in the Jake wars, you were on the 'correct' side of the argument! :laugh:

Seriously, one difference was that in the Jake wars, it was primarily about a player. The argument was about whether Jake was horrible or not, and whether he only performed well because of the system.

The disagreements this offseason are much deeper and more far reaching, between arguments over Bowlen's handling of the team, Shanny's firing, McDaniels hiring, Cutler's trade, players drafted, picks traded, etc., etc., etc.

Agreed - this season dwarfs the Jake Wars. Its like comparing the Mexican War with the Civil War. Some of us will still be fighting this one in nursing homes a few decades hence. Plummer will have been (hopefully) forgotten in a couple more years.

NameUsedBefore
08-07-2009, 03:14 PM
Here is some video from the scrimmage last night...

Orton looked terrible. Not just the interceptions, but in a good lot of the plays. I'd agree that it is "just practice" if it weren't for the fact that he looks just like that in the real games too. Throwing into the flats on a third-and-medium? Stuffing the ball into the ground when trying to do a short dump to the running-back? Goodness. Don't get me started on anything that goes beyond 10-yards.

Lonestar
08-07-2009, 03:33 PM
Even if that is 'technically' true, if McDaniel's had been able to either prevent the relationship from imploding or repaired it, Bowlen wouldn't have had to make that choice.

It makes sense that Bowlen ultimately decided, considering when he fired Shanahan, Bowlen made a point of saying Jay was the future of the franchise (or something to that effect).


I truly believe once mike was fired it was fait accompli.. jay knew his whole world was going to change, whether it be a new offense or coaching staff.. he knew he would not be able to wing it out when he wanted to..

the love affair between mike and jay was over..

T.K.O.
08-07-2009, 04:00 PM
ive watched a couple games with orton at qb and he was accurate on short and intermediate passes. he seemed comfortable in the pocket and ran the offense effectively.
i dont think he has become some sort of incompetent spaz,just by signing with the broncos.
i have said it 100 times,he doesnt have the physical tools cutler has but he is smart and has enough arm ,once he gets comfortable with the system and his recievers he will do just fine.
i dont get how so many people think cutler is the greatest qb to come along in decades when he has'nt proven anything more than the ability to move the ball well between the 20's.
blame the D and the rest of the team for the biggest chokefest in bronco history,but give cutler a complete pass for throwing twice as many picks as td's down the stretch last year.......why? i dont get it !:confused:

Ravage!!!
08-07-2009, 04:15 PM
Because ability shows through mistakes .. the skills are still there. Cutler was also one of the best QBs in the league in the fourth quarter, and did throw more TDs than INTs in the fourth quarter as well. Its not like he was just a 'choke' through the season.

Two... we've seen the list of ALL-TIME great QBs (and the great ones of today) records when having 30+ points put against them. Cutler had 50% of the games he started facing 30+ points put against him. Thats unbelievably, amazingly, bad defense. NO ONE has a winning % against those kind of points.... NO ONE ever. Why is it we actually would blame the QB for those?

Regardless, the defense on the other hand... didn't show any 'promise' or ability. It didn't show upswing and potential. It didn't bring an ounce of hope or the skills to see improvement and realize that we are on the brink of something special.

T.K.O.
08-07-2009, 04:24 PM
yeah thats all fine and dandy but.....he asked to be traded and refused to talk to the owner and head coach for weeks leading up to his being traded.
he is the quarterback of the chicago bears.
i am concerned with the guys on "MY TEAM".
not some snot nosed disgruntled former bronco who has now taken to bashing the fans that supported him through 3 years of .500 football and 0 playoff games.
so from the bottom of my heart i'd like to thank jay for his hard work and valiant attempt to overcome the the rest of the teams horrible play.
now BLOW me !:welcome:....uhhhhh kiss goodbye and enjoy your life in the windy city.;)

Ray Finkle
08-07-2009, 05:55 PM
Because ability shows through mistakes .. the skills are still there. Cutler was also one of the best QBs in the league in the fourth quarter, and did throw more TDs than INTs in the fourth quarter as well. Its not like he was just a 'choke' through the season.

Two... we've seen the list of ALL-TIME great QBs (and the great ones of today) records when having 30+ points put against them. Cutler had 50% of the games he started facing 30+ points put against him. Thats unbelievably, amazingly, bad defense. NO ONE has a winning % against those kind of points.... NO ONE ever. Why is it we actually would blame the QB for those?

Regardless, the defense on the other hand... didn't show any 'promise' or ability. It didn't show upswing and potential. It didn't bring an ounce of hope or the skills to see improvement and realize that we are on the brink of something special.

Really? I count less than 5 wins that he rallied the team. I remember more the SF game and the Buffalo game when he was hung over for what he did in the 4th....

ursamajor
08-07-2009, 06:33 PM
So, they are getting a third-round wide receiver-production out of a third-round wide receiver? Shocking.

He value dropped because while his packaging was in good condition, he was missing his All-American QB. But that problem has been solved.

Earl is shining-KungFu grip and all.

Ravage!!!
08-07-2009, 06:37 PM
Really? I count less than 5 wins that he rallied the team. I remember more the SF game and the Buffalo game when he was hung over for what he did in the 4th....

I"m confused. You say less than five that you count, so that means you count 4 wins that he rallied the team. Thats 25% of the season he had to 'rally the team to a win."

Cutler's QB rating is amongst the very tops in the NFL in the 4th quarter. Thats what I'm saying. If it wasn't such a HUGE stat that shows just how 'bad' the winning % is with QBs that have faced 30+ points, it wouldn't be a factor. But it is a factor. Its a HUGE factor.

just for craps and grins...

In 2008, Chicago's defense gave up 30+ points in 4 games ...kyle was 1-3
In 2008, Denver's defense gave up 30+ points in 9 games... cutler was 3-6 (are these three that you are counting in your 4??)

In 2007, Chicago's defense gave up 30+ points in 5 games (orton didn't start)
In 2007, Denver's defense gave up 30+ points in 6 games.

In 2008, Denver's defense gave up as many 30+ point games as Chicago did in the 2007-2008 seasons combined.

Thats a HUGE factor for any QB/offense/team to overcome. Of course Cutler isn't mistake/blame free. No one is. But if it wasn't such a HUGE factor in EVERY QBs stats...then it woudn't make any difference.

Point being is that Jay was 12-5 in games that the opposing team scored 29 or fewer points. It takes the combined total of Chicago's seasons from 2003 thru 2008 (6 seasons) to equal (from 2004 they only had 13) the number of games giving up 30+ points that Denver gave up the last 2 years alone.

So what games are you really counting as "rallying" to a win? I"m not sure thats an official stat more than its just a stat you are putting your own gut to.

Tned
08-07-2009, 07:33 PM
I truly believe once mike was fired it was fait accompli.. jay knew his whole world was going to change, whether it be a new offense or coaching staff.. he knew he would not be able to wing it out when he wanted to..

the love affair between mike and jay was over..

There are a couple problems with your theory that it was over as soon as Mike was fired.

First, when Mike was first fired, Bowlen told him he was the future of the franchise and that he would do his best to keep Bates and most of the offensive staff.

Second, saying "I want out of Denver, because Mike was fired" when his buddy Bates was still calling the shots on offense, and moving on to another team would guarantee abandoning the offense he knew plus a new coaching staff, simply makes no sense.

So, I think it's fair to say that your assertion simply doesn't hold water. You can't say it was a done deal as soon as Mike was fired.

NameUsedBefore
08-07-2009, 08:42 PM
I'm not gonna go looking for it, but I know for a fact Cutler had a few statements saying he was excited to work in a McDaniels system.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2009, 08:48 PM
I"m confused. You say less than five that you count, so that means you count 4 wins that he rallied the team. Thats 25% of the season he had to 'rally the team to a win."

Cutler's QB rating is amongst the very tops in the NFL in the 4th quarter. Thats what I'm saying. If it wasn't such a HUGE stat that shows just how 'bad' the winning % is with QBs that have faced 30+ points, it wouldn't be a factor. But it is a factor. Its a HUGE factor.

just for craps and grins...

In 2008, Chicago's defense gave up 30+ points in 4 games ...kyle was 1-3
In 2008, Denver's defense gave up 30+ points in 9 games... cutler was 3-6 (are these three that you are counting in your 4??)

In 2007, Chicago's defense gave up 30+ points in 5 games (orton didn't start)
In 2007, Denver's defense gave up 30+ points in 6 games.

In 2008, Denver's defense gave up as many 30+ point games as Chicago did in the 2007-2008 seasons combined.

Thats a HUGE factor for any QB/offense/team to overcome. Of course Cutler isn't mistake/blame free. No one is. But if it wasn't such a HUGE factor in EVERY QBs stats...then it woudn't make any difference.

Point being is that Jay was 12-5 in games that the opposing team scored 29 or fewer points. It takes the combined total of Chicago's seasons from 2003 thru 2008 (6 seasons) to equal (from 2004 they only had 13) the number of games giving up 30+ points that Denver gave up the last 2 years alone.

So what games are you really counting as "rallying" to a win? I"m not sure thats an official stat more than its just a stat you are putting your own gut to.

in 2 and a half seasons...it is easy to have a high rating when they other team is up by 20....

LoyalSoldier
08-07-2009, 08:50 PM
I"m confused. You say less than five that you count, so that means you count 4 wins that he rallied the team. Thats 25% of the season he had to 'rally the team to a win."

Cutler's QB rating is amongst the very tops in the NFL in the 4th quarter. Thats what I'm saying. If it wasn't such a HUGE stat that shows just how 'bad' the winning % is with QBs that have faced 30+ points, it wouldn't be a factor. But it is a factor. Its a HUGE factor.

just for craps and grins...

In 2008, Chicago's defense gave up 30+ points in 4 games ...kyle was 1-3
In 2008, Denver's defense gave up 30+ points in 9 games... cutler was 3-6 (are these three that you are counting in your 4??)

In 2007, Chicago's defense gave up 30+ points in 5 games (orton didn't start)
In 2007, Denver's defense gave up 30+ points in 6 games.

In 2008, Denver's defense gave up as many 30+ point games as Chicago did in the 2007-2008 seasons combined.

Thats a HUGE factor for any QB/offense/team to overcome. Of course Cutler isn't mistake/blame free. No one is. But if it wasn't such a HUGE factor in EVERY QBs stats...then it woudn't make any difference.

Point being is that Jay was 12-5 in games that the opposing team scored 29 or fewer points. It takes the combined total of Chicago's seasons from 2003 thru 2008 (6 seasons) to equal (from 2004 they only had 13) the number of games giving up 30+ points that Denver gave up the last 2 years alone.

So what games are you really counting as "rallying" to a win? I"m not sure thats an official stat more than its just a stat you are putting your own gut to.

The biggest problem was the lack of turnovers provided by our defense. People love to bash our offense for its ranking as 16th in total scoring, but the fact is that nearly all of the teams above us have twice as many points that were scored off of turnovers. For instance, Arizona has an equal amount of turnovers committed by their offense as we did, but their defense forced 30 turnovers at the same time.

We had 38 points with help from our defense, they had 75. The points each of the offense's scored without help is 332 by Denver and 352 by Arizona. Hell San Diego's offense would look more like ours it it wasn't getting bailed out by their defense. They had 114 points with assistance from their defense . Their unassisted total was 325.

Football is a team game and this is a perfect case of the defense screwing things up for the offense. If Orton ever wants any kind of success in Denver then he had better pray our defense can give him some help.

NameUsedBefore
08-07-2009, 09:14 PM
in 2 and a half seasons...it is easy to have a high rating when they other team is up by 20....

Buhhhhhh what?

Lonestar
08-07-2009, 09:21 PM
There are a couple problems with your theory that it was over as soon as Mike was fired.

First, when Mike was first fired, Bowlen told him he was the future of the franchise and that he would do his best to keep Bates and most of the offensive staff.

Second, saying "I want out of Denver, because Mike was fired" when his buddy Bates was still calling the shots on offense, and moving on to another team would guarantee abandoning the offense he knew plus a new coaching staff, simply makes no sense.

So, I think it's fair to say that your assertion simply doesn't hold water. You can't say it was a done deal as soon as Mike was fired.


I think we can all agree that once mike was gone he knew the odds of his life span in DEN dropped considerably even with Pat blowing smoke up his skirt about being "the man"..

after josh was hired and bates declined to learn from another "maybe" master that was it.. period ..

So my assertion while not absolutely 100% accurate all boils down to mike leaving and PAT not hiring just a defensive guy to fix that side of the ball..

the minute Josh was hired IMHO jay made up his mind he was going to get out of dodge.. the loss of mike and then bates were his reasons..

I do not believe for a minute that jay would have stayed in DEN without a HUGE buffer between him and the new HC.. I also believe that you do not either.. all the nice speak from him was just that just biding his time for some lame ass excuse to get out of here..

jay could have never worked for josh and we all know it.. Please lets not kid ourselves.. afterall he had had smoke blown up his skirt by mike the mastermind and bates for years.. He was not going to take instruction from this "kid".. again something we all know in our hearts..

Lonestar
08-07-2009, 09:22 PM
I'm not gonna go looking for it, but I know for a fact Cutler had a few statements saying he was excited to work in a McDaniels system.

what do you expect him to say..

topscribe
08-07-2009, 09:27 PM
what do you expect him to say..

Ordinarily, that might be a valid point. However, I doubt that he could look at
Denver's receivers, O-line, and running game without salivating . . .

-----

NameUsedBefore
08-07-2009, 09:32 PM
what do you expect him to say..

The statement being genuine wasn't the point. Some here think there was animosity from the start, but it isn't the case.

Lonestar
08-07-2009, 09:39 PM
The statement being genuine wasn't the point. Some here think there was animosity from the start, but it isn't the case.

prove your theory because I do not believe it.. we all know what a pouty child he can be,

For Gods sake he was angry when they did not consult/advise him about firing mike..

tell me there was not animosity from the start ..

LordTrychon
08-07-2009, 09:48 PM
prove your theory because I do not believe it.. we all know what a pouty child he can be,

For Gods sake he was angry when they did not consult/advise him about firing mike..

tell me there was not animosity from the start ..

There was not animosity from the start.

LordTrychon
08-07-2009, 09:50 PM
Oh... and for what do we expect him to say? I'm pretty sure that one of the largest criticisms in Denver, even from Mike, was that Jay was too open and honest with his thoughts and feelings.

Lonestar
08-07-2009, 09:51 PM
There was not animosity from the start.

only because you said so..:salute:

NameUsedBefore
08-07-2009, 10:03 PM
prove your theory because I do not believe it.. we all know what a pouty child he can be,

For Gods sake he was angry when they did not consult/advise him about firing mike..

tell me there was not animosity from the start ..

Revisionist history.

The only time Cutler got "pouty" was when he felt -- and I personally agree -- he was betrayed. Before the incident Cutler was a total team player; first on the field for the training camps, more than willing to work with receivers in the off-season, delving into the playbooks hard and early. He was and is a hardworker and definitely a student of the game. This "Oh he's a pouty bitch" stuff didn't exist until he felt he had been stabbed in the back and, personally again, I think it should have been entirely expected.

For goodness sake, he played with a serious case of diabetes for an entire season and didn't say a single damn word about the fact he could have died under the watch of people who are paid to check his health and totally missed him losing 35-lbs.

In college he went through a string of offensive schemes and offensive coaches. Not a word of bitching there, either.

But no, he's a bitch and he hated McDaniels from the start because Shanahan got dropped.

Please.

atwater27
08-07-2009, 10:06 PM
For Gods sake he was angry when they did not consult/advise him about firing mike..

..

I am angry that they didn't consult with me too. How presumtuous of Bowlen.
Shanahan was on the right track really as far as a personell/scout team. He was on a roll, picking great players left and right the last couple of years.

Ray Finkle
08-07-2009, 10:26 PM
Buhhhhhh what?

simple. it is easy to have a high 4th quarter rating when the other team is giving you yards since the game is already decided. Stats are useless (as a published researcher/statistician) I can make stats bend to agree with ever argument I choose. That destroys the validity of them but you never see those factors published on a message board. You want to judge a good QB? Look at the following, red zone effectiveness, 3rd down conversions, and good decision making..

NameUsedBefore
08-07-2009, 10:37 PM
simple. it is easy to have a high 4th quarter rating when the other team is giving you yards since the game is already decided. Stats are useless (as a published researcher/statistician) I can make stats bend to agree with ever argument I choose. That destroys the validity of them but you never see those factors published on a message board. You want to judge a good QB? Look at the following, red zone effectiveness, 3rd down conversions, and good decision making..

Yeah maybe if the game is in the bag and and the opposing defense goes into prevent-D which doesn't happen often in the NFL especially in this day and age (hello thar Buccaneers vs. Colts). In which case, sure, enjoy maybe an extra 30-40 yards in garbage time. Wow. Big deal there. But for the rest of the time, also known as the vast majority, being down in the fourth = facing stingy, pure pass-defenses which is not something any QB wants to see.

Tned
08-08-2009, 01:59 AM
I think we can all agree that once mike was gone he knew the odds of his life span in DEN dropped considerably even with Pat blowing smoke up his skirt about being "the man"..

after josh was hired and bates declined to learn from another "maybe" master that was it.. period ..

So my assertion while not absolutely 100% accurate all boils down to mike leaving and PAT not hiring just a defensive guy to fix that side of the ball..

the minute Josh was hired IMHO jay made up his mind he was going to get out of dodge.. the loss of mike and then bates were his reasons..

I do not believe for a minute that jay would have stayed in DEN without a HUGE buffer between him and the new HC.. I also believe that you do not either.. all the nice speak from him was just that just biding his time for some lame ass excuse to get out of here..

jay could have never worked for josh and we all know it.. Please lets not kid ourselves.. afterall he had had smoke blown up his skirt by mike the mastermind and bates for years.. He was not going to take instruction from this "kid".. again something we all know in our hearts..

It's find to hold those opinions, as long as you realize they are purely that, opinions pulled out of thin air, rather than supported by fact.

You very first sentence is way off, we cannot all agree that jay knew his life span was limited in Denver once Mike was gone. Quite the opposite, most fans, and presumably Jay, took Bowlen at his word when he said that Jay was the future of the franchise to build around and that the offense would be left mostly unchanged, except for trying to improve the red zone.

As your initial premise completely falls apart, there is no sense in going through the knock on assertions.

We can just agree to disagree in our 'opinions' about what writing appeared on the wall at different points in this soap opera season.

Tned
08-08-2009, 02:04 AM
prove your theory because I do not believe it.. we all know what a pouty child he can be,

For Gods sake he was angry when they did not consult/advise him about firing mike..

tell me there was not animosity from the start ..

You're asking him to prove your opinion is incorrect, which is not possible. You are saying, "yea, they might have said it but they lied, prove to me that they weren't lying through their teeth."

What you ask for is impossible, because anything that was said that goes against your preconceived notions you consider a lie or simply something that falls under "what would you expect them to say."

TXBRONC
08-08-2009, 02:56 PM
Plummer blew on the deep ball....Brady is not a good deep ball thrower....

Cutler, Vick, Favre can throw the deep ball. How many titles do they have?

Actually Brady does quite well with deep ball. In 2007 he lead the League in completions of 40 yards or more.

MOtorboat
08-08-2009, 03:03 PM
This "Oh he's a pouty bitch" stuff didn't exist until he felt he had been stabbed in the back and, personally again, I think it should have been entirely expected.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

pnbronco
08-08-2009, 06:34 PM
If the only time I had seen Orton is at the Invesco practice then I would be worried too, but it's not. He isn't Cutler and will never have that arm, oh well.

Does he have leadership abilities, can he play smart? From the statements that Urlacher gave it think so. What I've seen of him with the other players there is great body language going on between him the WR's and the TE's, in fact he a Sheff are buds in every warm up.

I have heard Stink and Alfred say over and over you play for the other 52 guys in the locker room. I could be wrong and it will not be the first time but I'm feeling that type of energy again for the first time in a long time.

On Friday afternoon they ended the practice by punting the ball to first Kenny Peterson and then Chris Banks. When Kenny caught the punt you would have thought they had just won the Super Bowl, the players were screaming, jumping and running all around the field just like a bunch of kids. Then Chris missed the first one, did the wave off on the second and caught the 3rd and again the same as Kenny, oh Peyton was running up and down with a smile that covered his entire face. I saw a team on the field and Orton was in the middle of all that jumping, hooting and pumping the fists in the air.

Lonestar
08-08-2009, 06:41 PM
If the only time I had seen Orton is at the Invesco practice then I would be worried too, but it's not. He isn't Cutler and will never have that arm, oh well.

Does he have leadership abilities, can he play smart? From the statements that Urlacher gave it think so. What I've seen of him with the other players there is great body language going on between him the WR's and the TE's, in fact he a Sheff are buds in every warm up.

I have heard Stink and Alfred say over and over you play for the other 52 guys in the locker room. I could be wrong and it will not be the first time but I'm feeling that type of energy again for the first time in a long time.

On Friday afternoon they ended the practice by punting the ball to first Kenny Peterson and then Chris Banks. When Kenny caught the punt you would have thought they had just won the Super Bowl, the players were screaming, jumping and running all around the field just like a bunch of kids. Then Chris missed the first one, did the wave off on the second and caught the 3rd and again the same as Kenny, oh Peyton was running up and down with a smile that covered his entire face. I saw a team on the field and Orton was in the middle of all that jumping, hooting and pumping the fists in the air.


I wonder if anyone saw this the past 3 years at practice/TC.. from what I have heard it was going through the motions..atleast the last 2 years..

Requiem / The Dagda
08-08-2009, 07:44 PM
I wasn't overly thrilled that Orton was announced our option this year, at the same time, I'm not too worried about it. I think he's in a position now with good offensive weapons to where he can win games. He certainly benefited from a great defense in Chicago, and he more than likely won't have that here -- but the offensive firepower around him is much more bountiful than it was there.

If Orton doesn't work out, (I think he just has one more year on his contract?) -- we'll go to the draft to find our next guy. There will be plenty of options this next year. We'd have to mortgage up a bit to move up to acquire the best talent, but I feel that there are some quality guys coming out this next year who would really help us down the line, if not immediately.

We have a franchise left tackle, franchise right tackle, two great receivers, solid interior players and we drafted a hopeful star at running back. Couple that in with Hillis at FB, along with a solid trio of tight ends -- and it only seems like we're missing a legit quarterback on this team. I don't even know what talent he needs to be, but whatever quarterback comes to Denver in the near future is inheriting a quality offense which should ease any transition.

NameUsedBefore
08-08-2009, 10:10 PM
If Orton doesn't work out too bad because Seattle has our pick.

Requiem / The Dagda
08-08-2009, 10:11 PM
If Orton doesn't work out too bad because Seattle has our pick.

I'm perfectly content with having Alphonso Smith on our team at this point in time and definitely for years to come.

TXBRONC
08-08-2009, 10:20 PM
If Orton doesn't work out too bad because Seattle has our pick.

I think the bigger problem with not having our own pick is that if Fields doesn't work out we're more than likely not going to be in any position to draft a top tier defensive tackle.

Requiem / The Dagda
08-08-2009, 10:23 PM
I think the bigger problem with not having our own pick is that if Fields doesn't work out we're more than likely not going to be in any position to draft a top tier defensive tackle.

There are quite a bit of solid defensive lineman available in this draft, even in regards to nosetackle. The Broncos will easily be able to get in (or already will be) range of drafting one of their top three or four defensive line prospects; and there will easily be that many first-round prospects at DT and DE.

Broncos Mtnman
08-09-2009, 04:10 AM
Considering that his struggle with the long ball was a concern in Chicago too, yeah, I think we have something to worry about.

I find alot of these comments rather comical.

One of the gripes about Griese was his "weak" arm, yet now everyone is all hunky dorey with Orton's noodle arm. An interesting trivia fact here, Orton couldn't beat out Griese for the starting job in Chicago.

Another comical post is how this is just a week of practice. Orton has been to all the camps this year, so this isn't something "new."

Here's another one. The hate Jay crowd believes Bowlen when he says Jay didn't call him, even though he lied about several things after firing Shanny, including: his commitment to consult with Jay regarding the new head coach, not firing the Goodmans and not needing a GM. Bowlen lied - the Broncos died.

So, it's not too early to be concerned. Orton had the luxury of a top defense and a record setting special teams to back him up in Chicago. We're not likely to see a Chicago defense or a Devon Hester kicking game, so his weaknesses will be more obvious and costly.

But don't worry, we have a QB who hasn't played in years to back him up.

:coffee:

Hawgdriver
08-09-2009, 04:18 AM
Considering that his struggle with the long ball was a concern in Chicago too, yeah, I think we have something to worry about.

what is the problem with not having a serious long ball threat?

LoyalSoldier
08-09-2009, 04:35 AM
what is the problem with not having a serious long ball threat?
Everyone just defends short.

You need to have at least a good enough arm to hit a wide open reciever deep to at least have the defense give you a little breathing room. An Elway rocket arm isn't required, but it does come in handy.

Lonestar
08-09-2009, 04:42 AM
what is the problem with not having a serious long ball threat?



don't you know with out a long ball threat nothing else will work..:D

they will not be able to run nor pass short because defenders will not have to protect deep they can all cheat up on the LOS..

it does not matter that NE does not really throw deep alot, nor do most teams but then none of them have jay the canon armed QB either..

they just have confusing offenses that wipe defenders off their men to get open..

last year Welker had a hell of a season with a noodle armed QB and not much in the way of a stud buffalo RB..

alot of NE Passing game yardage is YAC.. 56% to ours of 41%.. so they actually have players instead of studly QB with long arms..

Welker BTW got almost 60% of his yards over that past two seasons as YAC.. someone that alot of folks are saying Fast Eddie compares two..

no arm, no wins did you not get the memo?:laugh:

Hawgdriver
08-09-2009, 04:42 AM
Everyone just defends short.

You need to have at least a good enough arm to hit a wide open reciever deep to at least have the defense give you a little breathing room. An Elway rocket arm isn't required, but it does come in handy.

Maybe his "long ball" is just 5 yards shorter than a rocket man's. That's not too bad, right? As long as he can be effective in the short game...right?

Tned
08-09-2009, 08:26 AM
Maybe his "long ball" is just 5 yards shorter than a rocket man's. That's not too bad, right? As long as he can be effective in the short game...right?

By all accounts, both from camp reports, and those that followed Orton in Chicago, the problem is not merely distance, or how far he can throw it, but instead that he simply is not accurate.

As one camp report said (can't remember who wrote this), but s/he said on the long balls, Orton either threw high floaters that gave the DB time to get in position and knock it away or pick it, or he thows a flat, hot ball and overthrows the receivers.

This conincides with one of the early reports we heard from a bear fan shortly after Orton was traded. It wasn't that his arm isn't capable of throwing the deep ball, but simple that he doesn't do it with accuracy or consistancy.

Dreadnought
08-09-2009, 09:28 AM
By all accounts, both from camp reports, and those that followed Orton in Chicago, the problem is not merely distance, or how far he can throw it, but instead that he simply is not accurate.

As one camp report said (can't remember who wrote this), but s/he said on the long balls, Orton either threw high floaters that gave the DB time to get in position and knock it away or pick it, or he thows a flat, hot ball and overthrows the receivers.

This conincides with one of the early reports we heard from a bear fan shortly after Orton was traded. It wasn't that his arm isn't capable of throwing the deep ball, but simple that he doesn't do it with accuracy or consistancy.

Which goes a long way to explaining his wretched 5.8 YPA.

HORSEPOWER 56
08-09-2009, 10:21 AM
Maybe his "long ball" is just 5 yards shorter than a rocket man's. That's not too bad, right? As long as he can be effective in the short game...right?

Without a deep threat, the defense will play more press coverage knowing we won't try to go over the top for the home run as much. McD's system is built on timing - press coverage disrupts that system. If DBs are in your WRs face all day it is tougher to get into your route after the snap which forces the QB to look elsewhere on hot reads. It also causes hesitation by the QB which makes him more susceptible to the pass rush.

With the threat of going deep, CBs have to play off more because of the threat of being beaten deep (especially if a Safety is in the box for run support) which has been our defensive philosophy the last few years - boo. This opens up the quick slants, ins, outs, and comeback or curl routes). If the CBs are in press coverage, it opens up the deeper routes as the WRs get off the jam and accelerate by the DBs. Plays like "go" or 9 routes, deep ins, deep outs (which Jay, Marshall, and Eddie were masters at last year), and post routes are more available and harder to defend but press throws off a short passing game's timing.

If all we have is the short passing game, it severely limits what we can do on offense and can be game planned much more effectively by the opposing defense. They can bring a Safety down into the box to stop the run and limit Moreno's/Hillis'/whoever's production without the fear of being beaten deep when they do. It's extremely hard to run against an 8 man front, I don't care who you are.

You need a QB who can reliably hit the deep ball. No, he doesn't have to throw 10 50+ yard bombs a game, but he does need to be able to hit 20-30 yarders accurately. As Solomon Wilcotts puts it, the QB needs to have the ability to force the defense to defend "every blade of grass".

Tom Brady may not have the strongest arm in the league, but he does throw an accurate deep ball. All those TDs that Moss caught 2 years ago weren't 5 yard slants that he ran in from 50 yards out.

Elevation inc
08-09-2009, 10:23 AM
lol i dont think we will be a liability jarmarcus russel or kellen clemmens style, but its doubtful orton steps to eliete status and wins us games. I like orton but mostly for his leadership and respectful tone talking about the team. he has a good short game, but the fact of the matter is this team will be designed of the run and short game. if we want big plays guys like eddie royal, knowshon, marshall etc... wil be the ones creating them. problem is defense besides our old defense dont let that happen often they certainly wont be by the long ball like we seen in the shanny era.

i think kyle wont cost us games next year on a grand scale, but i wouldnt be suprised to see us head a different direction at the end of the season since he will be a FA.

the good news is we are laying a good foundation, so that if we do have to go get that new franchise Qb or high caliber guy in FA next year, he will already have the tools( a elite run offense, WR, OL, and attack defense) to make the new guys tenure a success....

BroncoJoe
08-09-2009, 10:40 AM
I read somewhere that last year, Cassell had one of the lowest average in yards with the ball in the air. He wasn't throwing the ball downfield much at all.

I'm not too worried that Orton might not be able to throw it 50 yards.

Ravage!!!
08-09-2009, 11:00 AM
I read somewhere that last year, Cassell had one of the lowest average in yards with the ball in the air. He wasn't throwing the ball downfield much at all.

I'm not too worried that Orton might not be able to throw it 50 yards.

Cassel also was the worst in the Red-zone, took the most hits the most sacks.

*shrugs*.. not saying thats the system, but it MIGHT say that if a team isn't throwing the ball deeper,its easier to have more men in the box for blitzes against you.

BroncoJoe
08-09-2009, 11:13 AM
Cassel also was the worst in the Red-zone, took the most hits the most sacks.

*shrugs*.. not saying thats the system, but it MIGHT say that if a team isn't throwing the ball deeper,its easier to have more men in the box for blitzes against you.

Not sure what the relation is, as you can't really throw it deep in the redzone.

:shrugs:

topscribe
08-09-2009, 11:42 AM
I read somewhere that last year, Cassell had one of the lowest average in yards with the ball in the air. He wasn't throwing the ball downfield much at all.

I'm not too worried that Orton might not be able to throw it 50 yards.

Orton can throw it 74 yards . . .

-----

topscribe
08-09-2009, 11:46 AM
Considering that his struggle with the long ball was a concern in Chicago too, yeah, I think we have something to worry about.

I find alot of these comments rather comical.

One of the gripes about Griese was his "weak" arm, yet now everyone is all hunky dorey with Orton's noodle arm. An interesting trivia fact here, Orton couldn't beat out Griese for the starting job in Chicago.

Another comical post is how this is just a week of practice. Orton has been to all the camps this year, so this isn't something "new."

Here's another one. The hate Jay crowd believes Bowlen when he says Jay didn't call him, even though he lied about several things after firing Shanny, including: his commitment to consult with Jay regarding the new head coach, not firing the Goodmans and not needing a GM. Bowlen lied - the Broncos died.

So, it's not too early to be concerned. Orton had the luxury of a top defense and a record setting special teams to back him up in Chicago. We're not likely to see a Chicago defense or a Devon Hester kicking game, so his weaknesses will be more obvious and costly.

But don't worry, we have a QB who hasn't played in years to back him up.

:coffee:

I hope we don't see a Chicago defense (at least last year's). They were #30
in passing yards allowed.

And Orton does not have a "noodle" arm. I thought you, of all people, were
more inclined to investigate, rather than to believe the nonsensical assertions
of people on these boards.

-----

Ravage!!!
08-09-2009, 12:06 PM
I hope we don't see a Chicago defense (at least last year's). They were #30
in passing yards allowed.

And Orton does not have a "noodle" arm. I thought you, of all people, were
more inclined to investigate, rather than to believe the nonsensical assertions
of people on these boards.

-----

They still only allowed 30+ points in 1/2 the games we did.

But the consensus around the NFL (not just the boards) is that Orton doesn't have a strong arm (not compared to cutler, but compared to the average QB in the NFL).

rcsodak
08-09-2009, 12:21 PM
I hope we don't see a Chicago defense (at least last year's). They were #30
in passing yards allowed.

And Orton does not have a "noodle" arm. I thought you, of all people, were
more inclined to investigate, rather than to believe the nonsensical assertions
of people on these boards.

-----

Surely you jest, Top.

Looks to me like the I-love-Jay crowd gets their panties in a bunch if'n we don't pour accolades all over the now-Bear qb.

Never mind the facts.....they just get in the way.... ;

rcsodak
08-09-2009, 12:32 PM
They still only allowed 30+ points in 1/2 the games we did.

But the consensus around the NFL (not just the boards) is that Orton doesn't have a strong arm (not compared to cutler, but compared to the average QB in the NFL).

Isn't that what they said about Brees?

Since when is a strong arm necessary for success in the NFL?

What about Steve Young's arm?

Look at JGeorge's career....did it help him?

Seems to me, that the strong armed qb's spend most of their careers learning how to taper BACK their hard throws.....to learn 'touch'.

Like fastball pitchers.....who in their later years learn more pitches and become better all-around pitchers than just 1-trick ponies.

Besides...cutler didn't have "it"....so what's the loss. :D

Hawgdriver
08-09-2009, 12:55 PM
he simply is not accurate.

well what the heck are we going to do with a QB that's not accurate and not a strong thrower?

I saw him practice, and I made the point that his long ball was suck--it was that day, and maybe every other day, too--but what if his power and accuracy are:

Power: 82
Accuracy: 84

You can still win some games in Madden, right?

atwater27
08-09-2009, 12:56 PM
Surely you jest, Top.

Looks to me like the I-love-Jay crowd gets their panties in a bunch if'n we don't pour accolades all over the now-Bear qb.

Never mind the facts.....they just get in the way.... ;

What color are my panties RC?

Hawgdriver
08-09-2009, 12:59 PM
McD's system is built on timing - press coverage disrupts that system.

Just to be devil's advocate, let's say you are right and it doesn't matter. The reason it doesn't matter is because Orton is sooooo good at his timing, he can thread it in just like a rocketman can hit tight windows. If that was the case, then it's possible he has other something that compensates *somewhat* for his inadequacies...

Lonestar
08-09-2009, 01:08 PM
Hey the guy had good stats in chicago with some real stiffs as WR's and his OLINE was less than awesome, granted he had a decent RB and a couple of good to better TE's.. I do not think anyone can say the defenses could have had to worry about the long ball and I would guess they were playing 8 in the box alot and he still seemed to win there..

coming here with a better OLINE, some damned fine WR and TE's and the RB area does not look alot worse than he had in Chi .. why are we sweating that he does not have a rocket arm..

Off the top of my head I suspect he can throw it up long alot like jay did last year, as IIRC those were most of jays picks also..


much ado about nothing at this point..

rcsodak
08-09-2009, 01:58 PM
What color are my panties RC?

1. Didn't know you wore them.

2. Don't rightly care.

:D

Tned
08-09-2009, 02:18 PM
The long ball is one of the major reasons we need a healthy Marshall on the field. Marshall can win the jump balls downfield. Kind of like when Cunninghan was at the end of his career with the Vikings and would just lop it up to Moss, who would come down with the jump ball.

topscribe
08-09-2009, 02:21 PM
They still only allowed 30+ points in 1/2 the games we did.

But the consensus around the NFL (not just the boards) is that Orton doesn't have a strong arm (not compared to cutler, but compared to the average QB in the NFL).

I don't know where you get your consensus because, as I have mentioned many
times, I have spent hours upon hours studying and reading everything I can get
my hands on. And I have seen time and time again where he has a strong arm.
He showed in college he could throw it 74 yards. In contrast, Peyton Manning
showed in the 2002 QB Challenge he could throw it 68 yards.

The problem, it has been reiterated in many places, is not his arm strength but
his accuracy. Which is probably why Orton is throwing deep so much in this
camp. Accuracy can be worked with; sheer arm strength cannot. Orton has
arm strength.

I don't know why this is still an issue on these message boards. It is not
among the coaches.

-----

Requiem / The Dagda
08-09-2009, 02:23 PM
I have a feeling that Orton's arm strength isn't going to be a real issue because I doubt we'll be chucking up low percentage throws. I'm not camp, so I'm not privy to the type of routes being ran by the receivers -- but I have a feeling that watching the Patriots offense in the past under McDaniels makes me comfortable enough to say that their passing game relies on more short and intermediate routes than it does with long streaks and flys.

MOtorboat
08-09-2009, 02:29 PM
I have a feeling that Orton's arm strength isn't going to be a real issue because I doubt we'll be chucking up low percentage throws. I'm not camp, so I'm not privy to the type of routes being ran by the receivers -- but I have a feeling that watching the Patriots offense in the past under McDaniels makes me comfortable enough to say that their passing game relies on more short and intermediate routes than it does with long streaks and flys.

I would totally agree with you. I would imagine the only reason they threw deep at all was because they have the greatest deep threat ever at wide receiver. I'm sure McDaniels will take a few chances deep as Marshall and Royal both have decent speed, but as long as the timing is down between Orton and the receivers, intermediate and short routes will reign.

Tned
08-09-2009, 02:43 PM
I don't know where you get your consensus because, as I have mentioned many
times, I have spent hours upon hours studying and reading everything I can get
my hands on. And I have seen time and time again where he has a strong arm.
He showed in college he could throw it 74 yards. In contrast, Peyton Manning
showed in the 2002 QB Challenge he could throw it 68 yards.

The problem, it has been reiterated in many places, is not his arm strength but
his accuracy. Which is probably why Orton is throwing deep so much in this
camp. Accuracy can be worked with; sheer arm strength cannot. Orton has
arm strength.

I don't know why this is still an issue on these message boards. It is not
among the coaches.

-----

It's an issue, because Bear's fans have talked about his inaccuracy down field and those that have done camp reports have talked about his inaccuracy down field. The ability to throw it 74 yards doesn't mean anything if he throws it 74 yards when he needs to throw it 65 yards, or vice versa.

Until we see him playing real games, we won't know for sure, as there are many variables (pocket time, receivers, etc.) that go into downfield success.

topscribe
08-09-2009, 02:46 PM
It's an issue, because Bear's fans have talked about his inaccuracy down field and those that have done camp reports have talked about his inaccuracy down field. The ability to throw it 74 yards doesn't mean anything if he throws it 74 yards when he needs to throw it 65 yards, or vice versa.

Until we see him playing real games, we won't know for sure, as there are many variables (pocket time, receivers, etc.) that go into downfield success.

I do think I implied that, didn't I?

The issue I was addressing was specifically suggestions that Orton has a
"noodle" arm, but I was careful to address the accuracy factor . . . :)

-----

rcsodak
08-09-2009, 02:47 PM
Isn't that what they said about Brees?

Since when is a strong arm necessary for success in the NFL?

What about Steve Young's arm?

Look at JGeorge's career....did it help him?

Seems to me, that the strong armed qb's spend most of their careers learning how to taper BACK their hard throws.....to learn 'touch'.

Like fastball pitchers.....who in their later years learn more pitches and become better all-around pitchers than just 1-trick ponies.

Besides...cutler didn't have "it"....so what's the loss. :D

ps. Rav, just WHAT IS the arm strength of an "average qb"? Perhaps you could shed some light on your comparison? TIA

NightTrainLayne
08-09-2009, 02:47 PM
I have a feeling that Orton's arm strength isn't going to be a real issue because I doubt we'll be chucking up low percentage throws. I'm not camp, so I'm not privy to the type of routes being ran by the receivers -- but I have a feeling that watching the Patriots offense in the past under McDaniels makes me comfortable enough to say that their passing game relies on more short and intermediate routes than it does with long streaks and flys.

I agree. I think that this is where Shanny and Bates went wrong when the attempted to copy the Patriots passing game last season. They got it in their head that it was primarily a vertical, long-ball strategy, and just the opposite is true.

Having Moss gave them another dimension that makes that Patriot system almost undefendable, but it is not primarily a long-ball system. Instead it is built on crisp, quick, accurate routes, and corresponding reads and throws from the QB.

Bates and Shanny totally missed the mark on trying to replicate that system, and not surprisingly we were totally ineffectual in the red-zone where long-balls are impossible.

rcsodak
08-09-2009, 02:54 PM
I do think I implied that, didn't I? . .

-----

You mean the part where you said to the effect that 'accuracy can be worked on, but arm strength cannot'?

Do I get an A? :D

Top, I think the 'noodle arm' thing is pretty much the ONLY thing the detractors can fall back on, when it comes to comparing with their masonic qb.

Tned
08-09-2009, 03:02 PM
I agree. I think that this is where Shanny and Bates went wrong when the attempted to copy the Patriots passing game last season. They got it in their head that it was primarily a vertical, long-ball strategy, and just the opposite is true.

Having Moss gave them another dimension that makes that Patriot system almost undefendable, but it is not primarily a long-ball system. Instead it is built on crisp, quick, accurate routes, and corresponding reads and throws from the QB.

Bates and Shanny totally missed the mark on trying to replicate that system, and not surprisingly we were totally ineffectual in the red-zone where long-balls are impossible.

I have wondered, and speculated out loud (on the board and to friends), what changed from the first three games and thereafter. The first three games, when the Broncos were racking up points and yards, they were making a lot of short throws, taking the underneath routes.

Starting in the fourth game, they started to routinely go for the homerun ball. I have always wondered if that was what Bates was calling, or if Jay was choosing to go for the long receiver, rather than taking what the defense gave him like he did in the first three games. It was almost like the offense was running so well the first three games, that they felt they could do even better by hitting the long passes. Almost like a golfer who hits a a few sweet drives and then starts swinging harder to get those extra few yards, and all of a sudden loses accuracy and distance.

Tned
08-09-2009, 03:04 PM
You mean the part where you said to the effect that 'accuracy can be worked on, but arm strength cannot'?

Do I get an A? :D

Top, I think the 'noodle arm' thing is pretty much the ONLY thing the detractors can fall back on, when it comes to comparing with their masonic qb.

RC I know caustic is a badge of honor for you, but a great many of us aren't still stuck in the Jake/Jay wars, and are simply trying to evaluate our CURRENT QB.

MOtorboat
08-09-2009, 03:12 PM
I have wondered, and speculated out loud (on the board and to friends), what changed from the first three games and thereafter. The first three games, when the Broncos were racking up points and yards, they were making a lot of short throws, taking the underneath routes.

Starting in the fourth game, they started to routinely go for the homerun ball. I have always wondered if that was what Bates was calling, or if Jay was choosing to go for the long receiver, rather than taking what the defense gave him like he did in the first three games. It was almost like the offense was running so well the first three games, that they felt they could do even better by hitting the long passes. Almost like a golfer who hits a a few sweet drives and then starts swinging harder to get those extra few yards, and all of a sudden loses accuracy and distance.

I think there was a lot of Shanahan's ego in the change. Bates wanted to mimic McDaniel's offense, and Shanahan, being the offensive guru that he is (and he really is one), wanted to insert some of his offense in it, as well. Combining the two was disastrous, because, for whatever reason (and without going back and breaking down film - which I'm not going to do), defenses picked it apart, and Cutler made some bad choices with where he went with the ball.

Another part of that, I think, is that McDaniels uses deep routes to draw coverage, but with Randy Moss they can throw that long ball every now and then and he'll go up and get it, and that makes the McDaniels system with the Patriots even more dangerous. We either don't have that, or Cutler forgot the premise of the offense was to take the short routes over the deep routes. I'm guessing it was the latter...but I don't want this to turn into a Cutler discussion.

Requiem / The Dagda
08-09-2009, 03:16 PM
I've always wondered what happened with the play calling too, considering the sort of routes ran in the WCO and with Shanahan being a descendant and disciple of Walsh. It seemed like after a few weeks, everything changed and the prototypical WCO stuff was out the door. Huh.

Broncos Mtnman
08-09-2009, 03:19 PM
don't you know with out a long ball threat nothing else will work..:D

they will not be able to run nor pass short because defenders will not have to protect deep they can all cheat up on the LOS..

it does not matter that NE does not really throw deep alot, nor do most teams but then none of them have jay the canon armed QB either..

they just have confusing offenses that wipe defenders off their men to get open..

last year Welker had a hell of a season with a noodle armed QB and not much in the way of a stud buffalo RB..

alot of NE Passing game yardage is YAC.. 56% to ours of 41%.. so they actually have players instead of studly QB with long arms..

Welker BTW got almost 60% of his yards over that past two seasons as YAC.. someone that alot of folks are saying Fast Eddie compares two..

no arm, no wins did you not get the memo?:laugh:

Considering your critique of Greise when he was here, to say you're being a hypocrit now is an understatement.

:coffee:

Broncos Mtnman
08-09-2009, 03:22 PM
Maybe his "long ball" is just 5 yards shorter than a rocket man's. That's not too bad, right? As long as he can be effective in the short game...right?

The question isn't distance, it's accuracy, and Orton has struggled in that area his whole career.

And no, being able to complete a 5 yard pass isn't enough.

Tned
08-09-2009, 03:26 PM
I think there was a lot of Shanahan's ego in the change. Bates wanted to mimic McDaniel's offense, and Shanahan, being the offensive guru that he is (and he really is one), wanted to insert some of his offense in it, as well. Combining the two was disastrous, because, for whatever reason (and without going back and breaking down film - which I'm not going to do), defenses picked it apart, and Cutler made some bad choices with where he went with the ball.

Another part of that, I think, is that McDaniels uses deep routes to draw coverage, but with Randy Moss they can throw that long ball every now and then and he'll go up and get it, and that makes the McDaniels system with the Patriots even more dangerous. We either don't have that, or Cutler forgot the premise of the offense was to take the short routes over the deep routes. I'm guessing it was the latter...but I don't want this to turn into a Cutler discussion.

And with that said, Shanahan and Slowik spent a couple days at Steelers camp, which included watching Steeler film, and then spent a couple days at Patriot camp.

I'm still somewhat amazed that NE and Pitt were so accomodating, considering he will likely be coaching an NFL team in '10.

Broncos Mtnman
08-09-2009, 03:27 PM
Surely you jest, Top.

Looks to me like the I-love-Jay crowd gets their panties in a bunch if'n we don't pour accolades all over the now-Bear qb.

Never mind the facts.....they just get in the way.... ;

Get bent! Show me where I mentioned Cutler.

Orton isn't a good deep thrower. That has NOTHING to do with Cutler and everything to do with the fact that our starter isn't going to be considered a serious threat on deep passes.

Stay on topic if you're able....

:coffee:

BroncoWave
08-09-2009, 03:27 PM
I wasn't overly thrilled that Orton was announced our option this year, at the same time, I'm not too worried about it. I think he's in a position now with good offensive weapons to where he can win games. He certainly benefited from a great defense in Chicago, and he more than likely won't have that here -- but the offensive firepower around him is much more bountiful than it was there.

If Orton doesn't work out, (I think he just has one more year on his contract?) -- we'll go to the draft to find our next guy. There will be plenty of options this next year. We'd have to mortgage up a bit to move up to acquire the best talent, but I feel that there are some quality guys coming out this next year who would really help us down the line, if not immediately.

We have a franchise left tackle, franchise right tackle, two great receivers, solid interior players and we drafted a hopeful star at running back. Couple that in with Hillis at FB, along with a solid trio of tight ends -- and it only seems like we're missing a legit quarterback on this team. I don't even know what talent he needs to be, but whatever quarterback comes to Denver in the near future is inheriting a quality offense which should ease any transition.

Great post. Good to have you back Cicero!

People are acting like Kyle Orton is going to have to play as well as our old QB to succeed and that's just not true. He has so much talent around him on offense that he doesn't have to play at a Pro Bowl level for us to score points. Add the fact that our defense should at least be a little better this year and I am not worried at all about our QB play.

Another great point that if Orton does bomb this season there is a great trio of QB's atop the draft in Colt McCoy, Sam Bradbord, and Jevan Snead (if he comes out).

MOtorboat
08-09-2009, 03:32 PM
And with that said, Shanahan and Slowik spent a couple days at Steelers camp, which included watching Steeler film, and then spent a couple days at Patriot camp.

I'm still somewhat amazed that NE and Pitt were so accomodating, considering he will likely be coaching an NFL team in '10.

Dallas.

Tned
08-09-2009, 03:41 PM
Great post. Good to have you back Cicero!

People are acting like Kyle Orton is going to have to play as well as our old QB to succeed and that's just not true. He has so much talent around him on offense that he doesn't have to play at a Pro Bowl level for us to score points. Add the fact that our defense should at least be a little better this year and I am not worried at all about our QB play.

Another great point that if Orton does bomb this season there is a great trio of QB's atop the draft in Colt McCoy, Sam Bradbord, and Jevan Snead (if he comes out).

On your second point, if Orton bombs this season, it likely means we have a horrible season, but we don't get our draft pick, we get Chicago's. So, if Chicago doesn't tank the season, we might not be able to reach for a top QB.

As to the QB situation, I wouldn't say I am 'worried', but at the same time I am not confident, I am cautiously optimistic, I suppose.

I am hoping, as I have since the trade was made, that Orton will be able to play very well in the McDaniel system -- allowing the system to overcome the downgrade in the QB position.

The team has made a major downgrade in physical talent at QB, but I hope it can be made up by system and smart QB play (Orton is supposed to be a wise decision maker), along with hopefully better performance out of the running game.

MOtorboat
08-09-2009, 03:43 PM
On your second point, if Orton bombs this season, it likely means we have a horrible season, but we don't get our draft pick, we get Chicago's. So, if Chicago doesn't tank the season, we might not be able to reach for a top QB.

As to the QB situation, I wouldn't say I am 'worried', but at the same time I am not confident, I am cautiously optimistic, I suppose.

I am hoping, as I have since the trade was made, that Orton will be able to play very well in the McDaniel system -- allowing the system to overcome the downgrade in the QB position.

The team has made a major downgrade in physical talent at QB, but I hope it can be made up by system and smart QB play (Orton is supposed to be a wise decision maker), along with hopefully better performance out of the running game.

Tom Brandstater, FTW.

Tned
08-09-2009, 03:44 PM
Dallas.

That's been my thought as the most likely spot, ever since he was fired. I know some say Jone's is too much of a control freak, but I think Shanahan wants to win more than anything, and I think Dallas has the pieces to win. If Dallas doesn't get at least to the NFCCG, I think Philips is gone, and Shanahan will be on the short list. I'm not totally convinced about Romo, but we shall see.

BroncoWave
08-09-2009, 03:44 PM
On your second point, if Orton bombs this season, it likely means we have a horrible season, but we don't get our draft pick, we get Chicago's. So, if Chicago doesn't tank the season, we might not be able to reach for a top QB.

As to the QB situation, I wouldn't say I am 'worried', but at the same time I am not confident, I am cautiously optimistic, I suppose.

I am hoping, as I have since the trade was made, that Orton will be able to play very well in the McDaniel system -- allowing the system to overcome the downgrade in the QB position.

The team has made a major downgrade in physical talent at QB, but I hope it can be made up by system and smart QB play (Orton is supposed to be a wise decision maker), along with hopefully better performance out of the running game.

Then we trade up for a QB if we have to. McD has already shown he's not afraid to trade future picks if it means he can get a player he really wants.

However, I consider that the worst case scenario and I'm not too worried about Orton flat out bombing.

Tned
08-09-2009, 03:45 PM
Tom Brandstater, FTW.

It's possible, I would love to see him become a Brady/TD/Rod Smith type of success story, but QBs picked that late typically are career backups at best, but again, only time will tell.

Tned
08-09-2009, 03:46 PM
Then we trade up for a QB if we have to. McD has already shown he's not afraid to trade future picks if it means he can get a player he really wants.

However, I consider that the worst case scenario and I'm not too worried about Orton flat out bombing.

Actually, it's one of two worst case scenarios. The other is that Orton has a great year, and commands a contract that the Broncos are unwilling to pay.

Is he a FA or RFA after this year? I was thinking he will be an unrestricted free agent.

BroncoWave
08-09-2009, 03:49 PM
Actually, it's one of two worst case scenarios. The other is that Orton has a great year, and commands a contract that the Broncos are unwilling to pay.

Is he a FA or RFA after this year? I was thinking he will be an unrestricted free agent.

I fully disagree on that one. It will be a great thing if Orton tears it up this year. I'm sure the Broncos would have no problem extending him if that were the case.

Tned
08-09-2009, 03:56 PM
I fully disagree on that one. It will be a great thing if Orton tears it up this year. I'm sure the Broncos would have no problem extending him if that were the case.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see him tear it up, even though that doesn't mean we will win a bunch (those are two seperate things). However, if Orton has a great year and looks for Cassel like Dollars, then Bowlen might not be willing to pay him $14 or so million a year. Orton might not want to even stay in Denver. Lots of unkowns.

Requiem / The Dagda
08-09-2009, 03:57 PM
Hopefully we're able to get this guy next year: Timmy Hiller

http://blog.mlive.com/broncos_impact/2008/10/large_WMUHillerfeature.jpg

The next awesome Bronco QB.

TXBRONC
08-09-2009, 05:45 PM
By all accounts, both from camp reports, and those that followed Orton in Chicago, the problem is not merely distance, or how far he can throw it, but instead that he simply is not accurate.

As one camp report said (can't remember who wrote this), but s/he said on the long balls, Orton either threw high floaters that gave the DB time to get in position and knock it away or pick it, or he thows a flat, hot ball and overthrows the receivers.

This conincides with one of the early reports we heard from a bear fan shortly after Orton was traded. It wasn't that his arm isn't capable of throwing the deep ball, but simple that he doesn't do it with accuracy or consistancy.

Exactly, it's not Orton's arm strength that's the problem on the long ball it's accuracy that's problematic.

Lonestar
08-09-2009, 06:43 PM
I agree. I think that this is where Shanny and Bates went wrong when the attempted to copy the Patriots passing game last season. They got it in their head that it was primarily a vertical, long-ball strategy, and just the opposite is true.

Having Moss gave them another dimension that makes that Patriot system almost undefendable, but it is not primarily a long-ball system. Instead it is built on crisp, quick, accurate routes, and corresponding reads and throws from the QB.

Bates and Shanny totally missed the mark on trying to replicate that system, and not surprisingly we were totally ineffectual in the red-zone where long-balls are impossible.


adding confusion created by the routes and breaks to it all and you almost always have open men..

Lonestar
08-09-2009, 06:45 PM
Actually, it's one of two worst case scenarios. The other is that Orton has a great year, and commands a contract that the Broncos are unwilling to pay.

Is he a FA or RFA after this year? I was thinking he will be an unrestricted free agent.


with the current CBA leftovers he is a RFA till after his 6th year.. so I believe he is ours till a new CBA is signed or we match his proffer sheet..

Tned
08-09-2009, 07:03 PM
with the current CBA leftovers he is a RFA till after his 6th year.. so I believe he is ours till a new CBA is signed or we match his proffer sheet..

Actually, I am pretty sure that going into '10, players with five years of service (in their sixth year) will unrestricted, and players in their fifth year (four years of accrued service) are restricted.

So, Marshall, in his fifth year would be restricted.
Orton in his sixth year would be unrestricted.

Lonestar
08-09-2009, 07:05 PM
Actually, I am pretty sure that going into '10, players with five years of service (in their sixth year) will unrestricted, and players in their fifth year (four years of accrued service) are restricted.

So, Marshall, in his fifth year would be restricted.
Orton in his sixth year would be unrestricted.

I'm sure I read that after the 6th year it was UFA.. but could be wrong..tha meant all players drafted in 2005-6 in particular were at risk..

Tned
08-09-2009, 07:22 PM
I'm sure I read that after the 6th year it was UFA.. but could be wrong..tha meant all players drafted in 2005-6 in particular were at risk..

I just checked the CBA plus several other sites.

Normally, players are unrestricted after four years, so in their fifth year. However, there is a stipulation that in an 'uncapped year', players must have five years of accrued service time before they become unrestricted (so they are free agents their sixth year).

That means players drafted in '06 will be restricted, players drafted in '05 will be unrestricted.

TXBRONC
08-09-2009, 07:24 PM
Then we trade up for a QB if we have to. McD has already shown he's not afraid to trade future picks if it means he can get a player he really wants.

However, I consider that the worst case scenario and I'm not too worried about Orton flat out bombing.

Then why did he draft Brandstater? I don't think he draft Brandstarter just develop him into a back up quarterback. While it's only a guess I would think he drafted Brandstater with purpose of developing him into his starting quarterback of the future.

A lot of people like to repeat over how McDaniels comes from New England and that Denver is following that model, but now Orton doesn't workout all of sudden he'll want to draft a quarterback in the first round and he'll even trade up to do it. I haven't anything in what McDaniels has done thus far to indicate that he would be willing to trade to draft a quarterback high in next years draft.

T.K.O.
08-10-2009, 06:30 PM
Then why did he draft Brandstater? I don't think he draft Brandstarter just develop him into a back up quarterback. While it's only a guess I would think he drafted Brandstater with purpose of developing him into his starting quarterback of the future.

A lot of people like to repeat over how McDaniels comes from New England and that Denver is following that model, but now Orton doesn't workout all of sudden he'll want to draft a quarterback in the first round and he'll even trade up to do it. I haven't anything in what McDaniels has done thus far to indicate that he would be willing to trade to draft a quarterback high in next years draft.

with moreno rushing for 1600 yds and 31 td's we wont need a quarterback anyway !:D
but seriously,
i think you are right he saw something in brandstater that he believes can develop into an nfl starter and i,m sure orton can "run the system" until such a time comes.
although if a good prospect is available in rounds 3-4 it would,nt surprise me if he grabs him .if for little else than to keep the fire under orton and brandstater:salute:

elsid13
08-10-2009, 07:01 PM
Really? I count less than 5 wins that he rallied the team. I remember more the SF game and the Buffalo game when he was hung over for what he did in the 4th....

Come on Ray. The SF game he was knock out with concussion, came back in and lead the team to TD in final 2 minutes. The defense then allows Gore to run down the field and let SF hit game winning FG in OT. BTW that was the game Plummer had chance to rally the team and win it in the 3rd but threw a pick instead.

rcsodak
08-12-2009, 11:30 PM
RC I know caustic is a badge of honor for you, but a great many of us aren't still stuck in the Jake/Jay wars, and are simply trying to evaluate our CURRENT QB.

golly, Tned.....I was simly giving MY view on a preceding post.

Far be it for me to overstep my bounds on the QB discussion, since I'm also over that debacle......it was simply 'there', so I commented. Thassall. ;)

In retrospect...I never mentioned Jake.....you did. :confused:

rcsodak
08-12-2009, 11:41 PM
Exactly, it's not Orton's arm strength that's the problem on the long ball it's accuracy that's problematic.

Why do you guys not get the fact that accuracy can be WORKED ON, whereas arm strength cannot!?

Use Vick as an example. He couldn't hit the broad side his early years...but gained year in/out. MOST qb's, in the offseasons, work on their accuracy...which is their comletion percentage.

Besides.....a 'catchable' ball will make up, some, for any inaccuracy..... .....compared to past high-heaters.

sneakers
08-12-2009, 11:41 PM
Oh come on...

The deep ball is not thrown 50 times a game. Cutler himself was bad at it. Other than the score to Walker against Arizona, how many times did he ever hit the WR in stride?

Cutler forced his way out....Orton is here. The guy is learning a new system and the defense was constantly blitzing him last night. If it was Cutler under center last night, everyone would be giving hand jobs to the defense....

That one in Chicago to Marshall....I was at that game

rcsodak
08-13-2009, 12:02 AM
Actually Brady does quite well with deep ball. In 2007 he lead the League in completions of 40 yards or more.

Randy Moss and Stallworth BOTH avg'd. 15+yds per catch...with Gaff at 12+.

Moss had 23TD's...of Brady's 50.

I think it's obvious what having Moss down the field can do to a qb's accuracy on the long ball.

TXBRONC
08-13-2009, 07:06 AM
Why do you guys not get the fact that accuracy can be WORKED ON, whereas arm strength cannot!?

Use Vick as an example. He couldn't hit the broad side his early years...but gained year in/out. MOST qb's, in the offseasons, work on their accuracy...which is their comletion percentage.

Besides.....a 'catchable' ball will make up, some, for any inaccuracy..... .....compared to past high-heaters.

Where did I say he couldn't work on his accuracy? Nevertheless how many years has he been in the League and yet he still struggles with the long ball? It's a fair criticism whether you like or not.

Apparently you have never looked Vicks completion for his career he stands at 53.8%. He was making such great strides with his accuracy that it was still a criticism right up to the time he was suspended.

TXBRONC
08-13-2009, 07:09 AM
Randy Moss and Stallworth BOTH avg'd. 15+yds per catch...with Gaff at 12+.

Moss had 23TD's...of Brady's 50.

I think it's obvious what having Moss down the field can do to a qb's accuracy on the long ball.

Apparently you've never seen Brady throw a football. :coffee:

TXBRONC
08-13-2009, 09:14 AM
Cassel had the benefit of spending years (can't remember how many) as the backup, so he knew the system. Orton is still learning, although the good news if you can believe coaches (some on here never did when it was Shanny or one of his coaches), Orton has done a great job of applying himself and learning the offense.

Cassel had four years in New Englands offense three of which he obviously spent on the bench.

TXBRONC
08-13-2009, 09:22 AM
Ok, we all know that we are only a week into training camp, so it's early.

One consistent thing we have heard from Orton's days in Chicago,"Orton isn't very good at the deep ball."

One consistent thing we have heard from training camp, "Orton has struggled whenever he attempts the deep ball."

One consistent thing from last night's scrimmage, "orton struggled throwing the deep ball."

Again, it was only a scrimmage, but Orton threw two pics last night (one report said three). Is it too early to be concerned?

Should Denver be bringing in any free agents, whether Vick (who will miss at least a third of the season, so wouldn't be an instant fix, if he was even a fit), Brian Griese, or another free agent QB?

Based on the first week of camp reports, Simms hasn't looked any better than Orton, and Brandstater is a long way from being ready to start (if he is ever ready to be an NFL starter).

The Broncos have a great line to run behind and pass block, they have a good corp of receivers (with or without Marshall), and a good to great stable of RB's. However, can they overcome Orton?

One of the hosts on 1510 AM this morning said, "will we find ourselves at mid-season wishing we had Cutler, and all his baggage, back under center?"

This was in Woody Paige's: Mailbag

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_13047901

Mailbag: Practice picks a concern?
Collin from Denver wonders if Bronco fans should be concerned with Kyle Orton's training camp interceptions
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post

Hey Woody, what are your thoughts on the picks Kyle Orton threw in the Invesco training camp game last week, and how about the way the fans reacted? I hate to assume anything (and we know what that can make you and me) but do you think the Orton era will end up being one that we would rather forget? Thanks and screw Mariotti; you rule ATH.
-- Collin, Denver

Collin: Orton is not a franchise quarterback. Those picks are typical of his practices. I've seen him now throw 10 or 12 interceptions. Here's a challenge for you: Look at every quarterback on the Broncos' opponents this year and tell me who has the better quarterback. I'll help you.

Here are the teams with the better QBs: Cincinnati, New England, Pittsburgh, New York Giants, Indianapolis Colts, San Diego Chargers (twice), Dallas and Baltimore. The Cleveland Browns, we don't know about Brady Quinn; Kansas City, we don't know about youknowho; Oakland, JaMarcus Russell is not much, but Jeff Garcia, if he plays, is a wash at the worst. Washington, with Jason Campbell, maybe a wash, and Philadelphia has a better QB.

Josh McDaniels says the same things about Orton that we hear Shanahan say about Brian Griese and Dan Reeves say about Steve DeBerg: Smart, has learned the system, efficient, throws a catchable ball (soft) and knows how to hit his short receivers (meaning he can't throw deep), doesn't make mistakes. Griese is a brilliant man. His lack of arm strength, and the interceptions ruined his career in Denver. Steve DeBerg was smart, knew the system, and his career never great.

You should be concerned about the interceptions in training camp. He's not getting the ball to his receivers quick enough, and corners can cheat up because he won't beat them deep. Meanwhile, every receiver in Chicago is praising the quarterback for his ability to throw the ball hard and accurate.

By the way did you ever have the time to get those Bears games that you wanted to look at so that you could study up on Orton?

CoachChaz
08-13-2009, 09:31 AM
Still no one can answer the question of what Orton has done some horribly in his brief NFL career to warrant all the "he sucks" comments

Dreadnought
08-13-2009, 09:46 AM
Still no one can answer the question of what Orton has done some horribly in his brief NFL career to warrant all the "he sucks" comments

Well I think I did. That 5.8 career YPA of his is a huge red flag to me. IMO YPA is the most important QB stat out there, even more so than QB rating.

Doesn't mean you have to agree that its as important an indicator as I do. Doesn't mean that it might not also be a product of a bad system, a bad line, and a worse WR corps at Chicago - but I do think its a legitimate concern. He may well improve on that here; we can only hope. It does tie in with criticism that he can't hit the intermediate to deep routes consistently though.

TXBRONC
08-13-2009, 09:47 AM
Still no one can answer the question of what Orton has done some horribly in his brief NFL career to warrant all the "he sucks" comments

Who said he sucks? I sure didn't and while I don't need to stick up for Tned I don't think he said that Orton sucks either. I don't think anyone else either from what I've read.

I do there are legitimate concerns about his ability. If I'm the same concern that were mentioned about him coming out of college six years ago are the same being brought in Denver.

Ravage!!!
08-13-2009, 09:51 AM
The idea that he has been beat out by both Brian and Rex is a concern for me.

T.K.O.
08-13-2009, 10:24 AM
The idea that he has been beat out by both Brian and Rex is a concern for me.

on the other hand he played very well until he got hurt last season and the bears still liked him enough playing injured to keep the backups on the bench....hmmmm

T.K.O.
08-13-2009, 10:26 AM
Who said he sucks? I sure didn't and while I don't need to stick up for Tned I don't think he said that Orton sucks either. I don't think anyone else either from what I've read.

I do there are legitimate concerns about his ability. If I'm the same concern that were mentioned about him coming out of college six years ago are the same being brought in Denver.

hey hey ,lets all just be glad we did'nt draft VY;)

topscribe
08-13-2009, 10:32 AM
Where did I say he couldn't work on his accuracy? Nevertheless how many years has he been in the League and yet he still struggles with the long ball? It's a fair criticism whether you like or not.

Apparently you have never looked Vicks completion for his career he stands at 53.8%. He was making such great strides with his accuracy that it was still a criticism right up to the time he was suspended.

Orton? Two years, actually on the field. So he essentially is a third-year QB. And
he has improved at the long ball since coming into the league, as attested by
reports from camp this year . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
08-13-2009, 10:33 AM
on the other hand he played very well until he got hurt last season and the bears still liked him enough playing injured to keep the backups on the bench....hmmmm

Hmm is right.

Either way, the truth is that Orton isn't a franchise QB. No matter how some try to twist and turn it... or.. simply try to HOPE for better. He's just not that talented. Dread has a good point. The biggest knock on him coming out of college is his arm strength hitting the mid-to-deep routes. His career APC is 5.8, which supports that concern.

I normally don't take anything Woody Page says seriously...but he had some great points. Look at the opponents we play this year, and how many of those opponents have better QBs? Almost all of them.

Corners and safeties are able to creep up, not worried about the deeper ball, thus being able to 'crowd' those middle to short routes. Orton may still be able to find the short man, but generally that means our team will need to sustain LONGER drives in order to score.

It also means it will be tougher in the red zone. A as an example of what I mean.... another QB that is said to have the same difficulties played for McDaniels last season, and he was the worst in the NFL inside the Red zone and took the most hits/sacks. Why? Because corners/safeties were locking down on the shorter routes and able to put more pressure on the QB. New England's offensive line isn't one to scoff at. I DO believe Orton gets rid of the ball faster than Cassel, so I'm sure it won't be a sack-leading year or anything.

But bringing back to me that Orton was FINALLY able to keep Griese and Grossman on the bench, isn't exactly a confidence booster.

Dreadnought
08-13-2009, 10:40 AM
Corners and safeties are able to creep up, not worried about the deeper ball, thus being able to 'crowd' those middle to short routes. Orton may still be able to find the short man, but generally that means our team will need to sustain LONGER drives in order to score.

This in turn may lead to fewer YAC even when Orton does hit the short guys - less chance for guys like Royal and Marshall to break away on a short crossing route, more chance its a five yard gain and no more.

Again, its not written in stone, but it is a concern I have

T.K.O.
08-13-2009, 10:46 AM
well thats why we got knoshon,to balance our attack and sustain longer drives.
and i doubt we will be any worse in the red zone than in recent years.
i agree orton isnt going to be spectacular,however people forget that he is a young qb.he has yet to be surrounded by talented recievers and quality offensive coaching. so he MAY be better than most think.and MIGHT improve with time.
there are NO guarantees that cutler will ever stop taking risks either,all qb's have strengths and weaknesses
i just hope we fix enough problem areas on the team that we dont need spectacular....it just might turn out ok

topscribe
08-13-2009, 10:57 AM
Hmm is right.

Either way, the truth is that Orton isn't a franchise QB. No matter how some try to twist and turn it... or.. simply try to HOPE for better. He's just not that talented. Dread has a good point. The biggest knock on him coming out of college is his arm strength hitting the mid-to-deep routes. His career APC is 5.8, which supports that concern.

I normally don't take anything Woody Page says seriously...but he had some great points. Look at the opponents we play this year, and how many of those opponents have better QBs? Almost all of them.

Corners and safeties are able to creep up, not worried about the deeper ball, thus being able to 'crowd' those middle to short routes. Orton may still be able to find the short man, but generally that means our team will need to sustain LONGER drives in order to score.

It also means it will be tougher in the red zone. A as an example of what I mean.... another QB that is said to have the same difficulties played for McDaniels last season, and he was the worst in the NFL inside the Red zone and took the most hits/sacks. Why? Because corners/safeties were locking down on the shorter routes and able to put more pressure on the QB. New England's offensive line isn't one to scoff at. I DO believe Orton gets rid of the ball faster than Cassel, so I'm sure it won't be a sack-leading year or anything.

But bringing back to me that Orton was FINALLY able to keep Griese and Grossman on the bench, isn't exactly a confidence booster.

I respect you and Dread, but it is not true that arm strength was any kind of
knock on Orton. In fact, arm strength was considered one of his . . . well,
strengths.

The biggest knock, according to scouting reports, was that Orton was very
raw and needed sound coaching to help him become NFL-ready. He did not
get that at Chicago, and he was thrown to the wolves in his first year. As it
turned out, the pundits were right: Orton was not ready, and his performance
that year was mixed.

I thought it a godsend for Orton that he was traded here to a place where
coaches actually know how to coach QBs. (That also did not exist in Chicago.)
And, from reports out of camp this year . . . which I have avidly read on
different boards . . . he is definitely benefiting from that coaching.

Arm strength has never been a problem for Orton. Anybody who truly knows
about him knows this. He just has had to learn how to be an NFL quarterback.
That can be and is being taught. I don't expect Johnny Unitas to emerge out
of that figurative cocoon, but I do think we will be pleasantly surprised to see
what McDaniels has brought out in Orton. I am going both by what McDaniels
did with Brady and Cassel, combined with what Orton did last year before his
injury and without this coaching.

-----

TXBRONC
08-13-2009, 11:07 AM
Orton? Two years, actually on the field. So he essentially is a third-year QB. And
he has improved at the long ball since coming into the league, as attested by
reports from camp this year . . .

-----

Matt Cassel was essentially a rookie quarterback and look at what he did.

True enough there are reports from camp that he's improved at same time there are reports that say he still struggles with it. Those are the same concerns that have followed him since he entered the League. By the time the season we'll know for sure if he's improved.

I'm truly hoping that he will be able be successful. I've never cheered for any Bronco to fail. I have an affinity for winning.

Dreadnought
08-13-2009, 11:10 AM
I have no doubt his arm strength is fine Top - I question his accuracy. If pure arm strength was the most critical asset for an NFL QB then Michael Vick would have been a perennial All-Pro and Bobby Douglass (I know full well you're also old enough to remember him :D) would be in Canton

topscribe
08-13-2009, 11:13 AM
Matt Cassel was essentially a rookie quarterback and look at what he did.

True enough there are reports from camp that he's improved at same time there are reports that say he still struggles with it. Those are the same concerns that have followed him since he entered the League. By the time the season we'll know for sure if he's improved.

I'm truly hoping that he will be able be successful. I've never cheered for any Bronco to fail. I have an affinity for winning.


I have no doubt his arm strength is fine Top - I question his accuracy. If pure arm strength was the most critical asset for an NFL QB then Michael Vick would have been a perennial All-Pro and Bobby Douglass (I know full well you're also old enough to remember him :D) would be in Canton


Yes, and look at whom Cassel had for a coach. That is the point I made in my
previous post.

And yes, Orton does still have a ways to go to become "good" at going deep.
But we don't have to wait to see whether he has improved since coming into
the NFL. All we have to do is study his first seven games last year to see that.
He is not "there" yet, but as much as they have him throwing deep in camp,
they apparently are working assiduously on it. As has already been pointed
out, Orton already possesses the capability that can't be taught: arm
strength. Mechanics can be taught. That is McDaniels' and McCoy's common
specialty . . .

P.S. Yes, I remember Bobby Douglass. That guy could throw the ball into the
third deck . . . and often did. :lol:

-----

TXBRONC
08-13-2009, 11:14 AM
I have no doubt his arm strength is fine Top - I question his accuracy. If pure arm strength was the most critical asset for an NFL QB then Michael Vick would have been a perennial All-Pro and Bobby Douglass (I know full well you're also old enough to remember him :D) would be in Canton

This is the point I've been trying make as well. His arm strength isn't issue as far I know, it's his accuracy that been a problem.

Ravage!!!
08-13-2009, 11:21 AM
Top, I know you keep defending his arm strength, but its been pointed out time and time and time again (by not just people here, but those in Chicago and those that watch Chicago) that Orton does NOT have a strong arm.

I think we had the same discussions about Plummer, and when Plummer was in the Pocket his arm strength hurt him as well. Orton's mid to deep-mid passing velocity is very mediocre at best. I don't really care about the deep pass (meaning the long deep ball).

Now as we both know, arm strength isn't everything (I want to be sure to say this before I get the JRwiz crackdown on how arm strength isn't everything, and those trying to do the ridiculous Jeff George comparisons). But all things being equal, I would much rather have the QB with the stronger arm. Sure a QB can be successful by not having the 'strongest arm'.. absolutely. But when the team needs to rely on a QB to take them on their shoulders, I believe Orton's athletic ability will hurt us. Our team will be down in points a LOT this season.

I think he does have a very mediocre arm, and that will allow the corners and safeties to sit tighter, making the short (5.8) yard dumps used that much more because we can't get the ball downfield, and in the long run the need for those longer drives will hurt (just as it did when our team's average starting position was our own 10).

Ravage!!!
08-13-2009, 11:27 AM
P.S. Yes, I remember Bobby Douglass. That guy could throw the ball into the
third deck . . . and often did. :lol:

-----

:lol: True on dat!

Ravage!!!
08-13-2009, 11:28 AM
I'm truly hoping that he will be able be successful. I've never cheered for any Bronco to fail. I have an affinity for winning.

:cheers: :beer: :dance: to that one

Ravage!!!
08-13-2009, 11:29 AM
This in turn may lead to fewer YAC even when Orton does hit the short guys - less chance for guys like Royal and Marshall to break away on a short crossing route, more chance its a five yard gain and no more.

Again, its not written in stone, but it is a concern I have

Good points, and valid concern

TXBRONC
08-13-2009, 11:34 AM
:cheers: :beer: :dance: to that one

Right back at ya brother. :salute:

topscribe
08-13-2009, 11:56 AM
Top, I know you keep defending his arm strength, but its been pointed out time and time and time again (by not just people here, but those in Chicago and those that watch Chicago) that Orton does NOT have a strong arm.

I think we had the same discussions about Plummer, and when Plummer was in the Pocket his arm strength hurt him as well. Orton's mid to deep-mid passing velocity is very mediocre at best. I don't really care about the deep pass (meaning the long deep ball).

Now as we both know, arm strength isn't everything (I want to be sure to say this before I get the JRwiz crackdown on how arm strength isn't everything, and those trying to do the ridiculous Jeff George comparisons). But all things being equal, I would much rather have the QB with the stronger arm. Sure a QB can be successful by not having the 'strongest arm'.. absolutely. But when the team needs to rely on a QB to take them on their shoulders, I believe Orton's athletic ability will hurt us. Our team will be down in points a LOT this season.

I think he does have a very mediocre arm, and that will allow the corners and safeties to sit tighter, making the short (5.8) yard dumps used that much more because we can't get the ball downfield, and in the long run the need for those longer drives will hurt (just as it did when our team's average starting position was our own 10).

Rav, I HAVE watched Chicago, as I have indicated. Orton DOES have a strong
arm . . . not in Cutler's category, as has been pointed out ad nauseam, but
stronger than Manning's or Brady's. He was recruited to Purdue because of
his strong arm, and scouting reports remarked on his arm. I noticed his arm in
my very, very thorough research on him. He overthrew Royal just last week
on a pass that Kaylore reported went some 60 yards in the air. McDaniels said
earlier this year that Orton overthrew Royal on a pass that went 55 yards in
the air. Another report just a couple days ago remarked on a completion to
Royal that went through the air, to quote the comment, "a long, long way."

You pointed out "those who watch Chicago." You're talking to one. I saw
several of Orton's games last year and have studied NFL 64 clips of his
performances. His arm strength is one of his abilities that impressed me. And
it has impressed pundits of the game, including the one who is coaching him
right now.

I'm not "defending" Orton's arm strength. Just pointing out the facts, as I
have seen them myself.

Regarding Plummer, let's not discuss him. Your memory of my comments on
him is obviously skewed, which I attribute to having faded because of the
time that has passed since . . .

-----

silkamilkamonico
08-13-2009, 12:08 PM
Positives and negatives to both sides.

I'll take a less YAC average if it means we can actually produce TD's in the redzone, something we haven't done since like 1998.

topscribe
08-13-2009, 12:11 PM
Positives and negatives to both sides.

I'll take a less YAC average if it means we can actually produce TD's in the redzone, something we haven't done since like 1998.

The YAC reported here has been oversimplified. How much of it is on the QB,
and how much on the receivers?

We'll find out this year, I suspect . . . in both Chicago and Denver . . .

-----

silkamilkamonico
08-13-2009, 12:22 PM
The YAC reported here has been oversimplified. How much of it is on the QB,
and how much on the receivers?

We'll find out this year, I suspect . . . in both Chicago and Denver . . .

-----

I'd say it's the system and the timing/accuracy of the QB as much as route running by the WR's. The Patriots had 4 players in the top 42 in 2007 in YAC, and 3 players in the top 33 last year in YAC, and that's with Matt "average arm" Cassell throwing the ball.

And LMAO at people who say Orton has a noodle arm. 75% of the diehardl NFl fans know that Orton does NOT have a great arm down the field, but they also know that he has an explosive arm in the midfield game.

People around here see he isn't as explosive as Cutler in arm strength, and immediately assume "noodle arm".

If anything, I can assure you he doesn't have a weaker arm than Matt Cassell.

:rolleyes:

Ravage!!!
08-13-2009, 01:06 PM
How is it that I'm only listening to one???? :confused:

OldschoolFreak
08-13-2009, 01:07 PM
Maybe this off topic but I always thought Cutler's rocket arm was overrated. Don't get me wrong, Cutler was fun to watch --if for no other reason than the fact that he always kept you on your toes with the possibility of soon throwing another pick--but I don't remember that rocket arm turning in to outstanding accuracy.

In fact, I felt that Cutler was off-target a majority of the time on long throws. I remember a couple amazing, across the field 35 yard strikes like the one to Marshall in the endzone against KC, but most of the time I felt the long game was pretty much out of synch most of the time. Maybe I'm misremembering but Plummer to Lelie seemed to connect more often on the long bomb than Cutler to Marshall.

Regardless, as Top said, the bomb game is much less important than a reasonably accurate mid-range aerial game. Hopefully Orton can give us that.

pnbronco
08-13-2009, 01:10 PM
Positives and negatives to both sides.

I'll take a less YAC average if it means we can actually produce TD's in the redzone, something we haven't done since like 1998.

So well put SAM. I just want to see them have ball control and produce in the red zone. Of course I would love more TD's but at least get 3 points out it. I also would really like to see us have a Special Teams again so we have a chance at decent field position. (Sorry I know that's not the QB, but it's really hurt us these last years.)

I would not say Orton has a noodle arm, he does makes fast decisions on the short passes and a really good midfield pass. It's just the long passes that the ball seems to loose it's umph and seems to be easier to intercept of what I've seen in camp. On the other side if you're throwing too many long passes how much ball control are you doing?

I do have to say that a pass that made me go :eek:, Kenny McKinley was completely covered by David Bruton, David had his back to Orton, Orton threw a rocket straight over their heads, Kenny jumped straight up in the air and made a amazing grab. That ball was rocket though and I kept thinking was that Orton, dang that got there fast and it was a midfield pass. Also he is really developing some great chemistry with Royal, Stok and Sheff plus Gaffney and Lloyd look really good too. I am so hoping that we all fell better on Sat or least on Sept 13.

Dreadnought
08-13-2009, 01:27 PM
Maybe this off topic but I always thought Cutler's rocket arm was overrated. Don't get me wrong, Cutler was fun to watch --if for no other reason than the fact that he always kept you on your toes with the possibility of soon throwing another pick--but I don't remember that rocket arm turning in to outstanding accuracy.

In fact, I felt that Cutler was off-target a majority of the time on long throws. I remember a couple amazing, across the field 35 yard strikes like the one to Marshall in the endzone against KC, but most of the time I felt the long game was pretty much out of synch most of the time. Maybe I'm misremembering but Plummer to Lelie seemed to connect more often on the long bomb than Cutler to Marshall.

Regardless, as Top said, the bomb game is much less important than a reasonably accurate mid-range aerial game. Hopefully Orton can give us that.


I would agree that I think Cutler was at his best in the 15 to 25 yard range; IMO the most important range for a QB to be good in. His arm strength showed in his ability to utilize the middle of the field most especially. He wasn't all that special or accurate at the 40+ yard bombs.

That being said, nothing will send me into apopleptic fits quite like a QB consistently hitting the 4 yard dumpoff on third and 8. That was a Brian Griese specialty, and I'd rather not revisit that.

Pnbronco, my general argument against dink n' dunk ball control passing is that it requires too many plays to move down the field. Too much can go wrong. A holding penalty is an automatic drive killer. Too many chances for someone to drop a pass, flub a snap, what have you. And ultimately it won't put points on the board. You can't depend upon it, and you can't recover from a deficit.

Give me 15 to 20 yard completions and we're in scoring position in two to three plays - then its a matter of grinding out TD's, and if you have a running game those will come on their own either on ground or through the air via play action.

Lonestar
08-13-2009, 02:20 PM
I want to see them move the chains and take as much time of the clock as we can..

From everything I have seen Joshes intends to play a much different "Playbook" each week.. Designing/customizing it to the weaknesses of the team we are playing.. we need a smart versatile team to do that..


that said for those of you that worry about the DB cheating up because we run alot of "dink and dunks" I suspect the coaches we make them pay for it from time to time with the longer passes..

Right now our D knows our offenses and have seen it play after play after play so far this spring/summer.. the Champ Bailey and the other new kid are smart enough to know what is coming when/as the play develops..

I'll worry about Orton's arm strength when he has been picked more than he did last year..

I also have to ask was that short YPC do to the play calling, WR, TE patterns or dumping it off to the RB's..

If all they are trying to do is get the 3rd down converted then perhaps it is more of one of the above than the QB fault..

None of us know for sure what we have, and maybe Orton or Simms is not the answer.. only time will tell..

and yes Orton's Arm is not jays but as it stands we were not winning consistently with his arm either and inside the red zone it does not matter so much about 60 yard passes does it..

T.K.O.
08-13-2009, 02:21 PM
Joshin' Around: Bronco Fans, Let's Give Kyle Orton a Chance by Josh Vitale (Scribe) Written on April 04, 2009


In the two days since Cutler was traded to the Bears, I have heard a lot of talk about Mark Sanchez. Why? Because many of the so-called Ďexpertsí out there donít always know what they are talking about.

Now that the Broncos have two first round draft choices, many of the draft guys predict that the Broncos will package them in a deal to move up and draft Mark Sanchez, a quarterback out of USC.

I personally hate the idea of trading up for Sanchez though, and I also think there is a slim chance this could actually happen. Josh McDaniels has seen tremendous success from two quarterbacks in his system, and neither of them were highly hyped draft picks.
Tom Brady went from being a sixth-round pick to being a Hall of Famer, and Matt Cassel went from a seventh round pick to a viable NFL starter.

So, before the whole Bronco world starts pre-ordering their Sanchez jerseys, Iím going to make a strong case for Kyle Orton to be the guy in Denver.

If you simply look at the numbers, Jay Cutler and Kyle Orton do not seem to be anywhere near the same level. Cutler has passed for 3,700 more yards in his career, and has 24 more touchdowns than Orton. But, when you look a little deeper, Orton begins to look a little better than he did at first glance.
In 2008, for example, Cutler had 1,500 more yards passing, and seven more touchdowns. The Bears, however, are historically a run-first team, and the numbers clearly show that.

Jay Cutler surpassed 40 pass attempts in a game eight times last season, while Orton did it just twice. On top of that, Orton missed a game and a half due to injury, while Cutler did not. So, the disparity in numbers is not as alarming as it seems.

Also, the skill players that each quarterback had ad his respective disposal is very different.Ortonís top three targets were Devin Hester, Greg Olsen, and Matt Forte. Olsen and Forte are a tight end and a running back, respectively, and Hester only had 665 yards. Even worse, the Bears top three wide receivers, Hester, Rashied Davis, and Brandon Lloyd, only totaled 1474 yards.

In comparison, the Broncos top three wide receivers combined for 2773 yards. Thatís a difference of almost 1,300 yards between the Bears and Broncos receiving corps.


After seeing that, putting Orton on a team with the offensive talent that the Broncos have should do wonders for his numbers.

And, when you consider that in his senior year at Purdue he threw for 3,090 yards and 31 touchdowns in a system that is said by many to be very similar to the one McDaniels plans to run, Orton begins to look like he could be a very solid quarterback in Denver.

Orton also brings to the table that everyone covets in a quarterback; a strong arm, passing accuracy, and all the intangibles. He is a leader in the locker room and on the field, heís very intelligent, and, most importantly, he is a winner, and will do whatever is necessary to win football games.

He is 20-12 as a starter, compared to the 17-20 record that Cutler is sporting. Even better, his 9-6 record last season (he missed one start) cannot be credited to his defense, as the Bears D ranked in the bottom half of the league.

But, the most important pro-Orton quality has nothing to do with the offense. To get Mark Sanchez, the Broncos will likely have to part with their extra first rounder in order to move up.

In doing this, the Broncos would go from having two first round draft picks to address their woeful defense to no first round draft picks to address their defense, as their one would have been spent on a QB.

The Broncos should be using those picks to draft two players that can make an impact on their defense.

So letís hold off on the ďletís go get our franchise quarterback in the first roundĒ talk. The Broncos have many more pressing needs right now.

Orton should be given his one year as a starter for the Broncos, and the Broncos should use those two first rounders on players like DE Tyson Jackson, LB Rey Maualuga, or, hopefully, DT B.J. Raji, if he falls to 12.

And, if the Broncos do really feel like they need to go out and get a rookie, letís hold off until day two. There are plenty of quarterbacks on the board expected to go in round 5-6.

So Bronco Maniacs, letís give Kyle Orton chance. Heís fairly strong and accurate, and has all the intangibles. Given McDaniels track record with quarterbacks and the slew of weapons he has in Denver, Orton could change a lot of minds in Denver.

rcsodak
08-13-2009, 11:34 PM
Where did I say he couldn't work on his accuracy? Nevertheless how many years has he been in the League and yet he still struggles with the long ball? It's a fair criticism whether you like or not.

Apparently you have never looked Vicks completion for his career he stands at 53.8%. He was making such great strides with his accuracy that it was still a criticism right up to the time he was suspended.

You're right, Tx, that you didn't "say" he couldn't work on his accuracy...but you did disparagingly point it out, no? ;-) And with ZERO wr's, I'd say he did better than what you're giving him credit for.

As for Vick, 53% is a heck of alot better than the 40+% he had when he first came into the league, no?

rcsodak
08-13-2009, 11:40 PM
Apparently you've never seen Brady throw a football. :coffee:

Tx, that statement is probably the most benign I've seen in a while......


I imagine I've prolly seen as many as you, ok?

Are you now going to tell me he had a great long ball, and that is the reason he was drafted......199th!? :rolleyes:

He, like so many others, has GROWN into the position, and has improved his weaknesses....one being the long ball. But AGAIN - - - - - having one of, if not the best, long ball/jumping WR's in the league has in NO way hurt his stats.

rcsodak
08-13-2009, 11:48 PM
Well I think I did. That 5.8 career YPA of his is a huge red flag to me. IMO YPA is the most important QB stat out there, even more so than QB rating.

Doesn't mean you have to agree that its as important an indicator as I do. Doesn't mean that it might not also be a product of a bad system, a bad line, and a worse WR corps at Chicago - but I do think its a legitimate concern. He may well improve on that here; we can only hope. It does tie in with criticism that he can't hit the intermediate to deep routes consistently though.

cutler was leading the league in ypc at one point.....


....hmmmm.....how'd that end up? :cool:

rcsodak
08-13-2009, 11:58 PM
Top, I know you keep defending his arm strength, but its been pointed out time and time and time again (by not just people here, but those in Chicago and those that watch Chicago) that Orton does NOT have a strong arm.

I think we had the same discussions about Plummer, and when Plummer was in the Pocket his arm strength hurt him as well. Orton's mid to deep-mid passing velocity is very mediocre at best. I don't really care about the deep pass (meaning the long deep ball).

Now as we both know, arm strength isn't everything (I want to be sure to say this before I get the JRwiz crackdown on how arm strength isn't everything, and those trying to do the ridiculous Jeff George comparisons). But all things being equal, I would much rather have the QB with the stronger arm. Sure a QB can be successful by not having the 'strongest arm'.. absolutely. But when the team needs to rely on a QB to take them on their shoulders, I believe Orton's athletic ability will hurt us. Our team will be down in points a LOT this season.

I think he does have a very mediocre arm, and that will allow the corners and safeties to sit tighter, making the short (5.8) yard dumps used that much more because we can't get the ball downfield, and in the long run the need for those longer drives will hurt (just as it did when our team's average starting position was our own 10).
How did that arm-strength and deep routes help the broncos? I seem to recall a few games where they were LUCKY to score ANY points!

rcsodak
08-14-2009, 12:07 AM
I would agree that I think Cutler was at his best in the 15 to 25 yard range; IMO the most important range for a QB to be good in. His arm strength showed in his ability to utilize the middle of the field most especially. He wasn't all that special or accurate at the 40+ yard bombs.

That being said, nothing will send me into apopleptic fits quite like a QB consistently hitting the 4 yard dumpoff on third and 8. That was a Brian Griese specialty, and I'd rather not revisit that.

Pnbronco, my general argument against dink n' dunk ball control passing is that it requires too many plays to move down the field. Too much can go wrong. A holding penalty is an automatic drive killer. Too many chances for someone to drop a pass, flub a snap, what have you. And ultimately it won't put points on the board. You can't depend upon it, and you can't recover from a deficit.

Give me 15 to 20 yard completions and we're in scoring position in two to three plays - then its a matter of grinding out TD's, and if you have a running game those will come on their own either on ground or through the air via play action.

True on the added chances for bad things, dread, but in case you forgot, denver's D has SUCKED of late. So having a qb that supposedly throw long strikes and quick scores is more of a detriment to the D.
Nothing wrong with them sitting on the sideline catching their breaths.

topscribe
08-14-2009, 05:17 AM
The YAC reported here has been oversimplified. How much of it is on the QB,
and how much on the receivers?

We'll find out this year, I suspect . . . in both Chicago and Denver . . .

-----

Just to elaborate a little further: In 2006, Brady's YAC was 6.8 (with a much
better supporting cast than Chicago's, but that's not the point). In 2007,
Brady's YAC soared to 8.3.

The Patriots had two interesting additions to their receiving corps in 2007:
Randy Moss and Wes Welker.

You just can't go looking at a quarterback's numbers without considering all
the other factors around him and still arrive at an accurate assessment. The
clichť that it is a team game holds true: the quarterback is at the mercy of a
supporting cast in so much of this.

I'm just glad the Broncos got Orton after only two years of playing with a
pathetic supporting cast. Plummer was in possibly an even worse situation for
six years before joining the team, coming here battle scarred and nearly
broken. I don't think Plummer ever recovered fully from that. Orton is lucky,
and so perhaps are the Broncos in that respect . . .

-----

LoyalSoldier
08-14-2009, 05:43 AM
How did that arm-strength and deep routes help the broncos? I seem to recall a few games where they were LUCKY to score ANY points!

You would be shocked how many more we could have scored if the defense didn't suck. And it can all be linked to one stat, points off of turnovers. Something our offense had close to no points in and it wasn't their fault either.

MOtorboat
08-14-2009, 07:02 AM
Most important game of the season, winning by 3 points entering the fourth quarter...quarterback rating in the fourth quarter...47.

T.K.O.
08-14-2009, 10:28 AM
Most important game of the season, winning by 3 points entering the fourth quarter...quarterback rating in the fourth quarter...47.

which game was that? are we talking broncos? or bears?i just got here

MOtorboat
08-14-2009, 10:46 AM
which game was that? are we talking broncos? or bears?i just got here

Buffalo. At home. Playoffs on the line for the third straight season.

OldschoolFreak
08-14-2009, 11:18 AM
I actually physically had a hard time stomaching that Buffalo game. It made me want to choke my TV.

NightTrainLayne
08-14-2009, 11:18 AM
Buffalo. At home. Playoffs on the line for the third straight season.

I can't argue that Cutler pissed down his leg in the fourth quarter of that game, but if Slowik had kept up the pressure that we started with in the 1st quarter, we would have won that game going away.

You can chalk virtually all of last season up to two things. Abhorrent defense, and Cutler just not being good enough to win it on his own, and yes, sometimes costing us the game, but it was a team effort. Slowik and Cutler do not make for a good pairing. :D

:D Call Cutler a coach-killer, but Slowik is a QB killer. :laugh:

I wish we could all get together and share the blame. It wasn't all Cutler, but it also wasn't always just the defense. I'm tired of all the fighting.

Lonestar
08-14-2009, 11:23 AM
I can't argue that Cutler pissed down his leg in the fourth quarter of that game, but if Slowik had kept up the pressure that we started with in the 1st quarter, we would have won that game going away.

You can chalk virtually all of last season up to two things. Abhorrent defense, and Cutler just not being good enough to win it on his own, and yes, sometimes costing us the game, but it was a team effort. Slowik and Cutler do not make for a good pairing. :D

:D Call Cutler a coach-killer, but Slowik is a QB killer. :laugh:

I wish we could all get together and share the blame. It wasn't all Cutler, but it also wasn't always just the defense. I'm tired of all the fighting.



I would hardly call cutler a one man offense with the WR he had and OK RB, and the TE were not slouches..

most of the time he only had to look for someone else other that marshall because for the most part they were open.. WIDE open.. whereas marshall was mostly double covered and often there were 3-4 defenders near him..

MOtorboat
08-14-2009, 11:34 AM
Regardless of who was at running back, the Broncos still finished 12th in the league in rushing...

CoachChaz
08-14-2009, 11:37 AM
Regardless of who was at running back, the Broncos still finished 12th in the league in rushing...

Crazy thing about RBBC...it often works.

topscribe
08-14-2009, 11:38 AM
Regardless of who was at running back, the Broncos still finished 12th in the league in rushing...

And third in the league in YPC . . .

-----

Requiem / The Dagda
08-14-2009, 04:58 PM
Well, now they'll finish first in ever category because we have the greatest running back since Natrone Means was in the NFL.

broncohead
08-14-2009, 06:57 PM
Regardless of who was at running back, the Broncos still finished 12th in the league in rushing...

We where also 28th in rushing attempts. Everyone knew we where passing the ball. Why stack the line when you can just drop into coverage?

topscribe
08-14-2009, 07:22 PM
We where also 28th in rushing attempts. Everyone knew we where passing the ball. Why stack the line when you can just drop into coverage?

I have seen that excuse many times before, and my answer is always the same:
It is what it is. When you are #12 in rushing and #3 in YPC, a defense is not
just going to ignore your rushing game. There are always reasons we can come
up with for it, but they are all hypothetical. The numbers are all that are sure. If
the Broncos were #28 in attempts and #12 in yards, then that was a superb
running game . . .

-----

elsid13
08-14-2009, 07:44 PM
Let get back to the question on hand. Is Orton the long term solution or a one year caretaker. I lean to the latter vs former. I can see the kid from WMU (Tim Hiller) coming (2nd round)in and being McDaniel's guy. I know folks will say he only drafts QB late, but that wasn't him drafting that was Pioli and Belicheat.

Lonestar
08-14-2009, 08:31 PM
Let get back to the question on hand. Is Orton the long term solution or a one year caretaker. I lean to the latter vs former. I can see the kid from WMU (Tim Hiller) coming (2nd round)in and being McDaniel's guy. I know folks will say he only drafts QB late, but that wasn't him drafting that was Pioli and Belicheat.

He is a disciple of Bills and thought piolii walked on water they were successful with both brady and casselll. What makes you feel he would not stay true to form.

The same thing mike did relying on unknown RB's to tote the rock. Even though portis was a second rounder he was not thought of to be a first day guy by most of the coaches.

I don't see Josh doing something UN-NE at all in the draft.

T.K.O.
08-14-2009, 08:36 PM
Let get back to the question on hand. Is Orton the long term solution or a one year caretaker. I lean to the latter vs former. I can see the kid from WMU (Tim Hiller) coming (2nd round)in and being McDaniel's guy. I know folks will say he only drafts QB late, but that wasn't him drafting that was Pioli and Belicheat.

i'll let you know in december:salute:

Dean
08-14-2009, 10:32 PM
Ok, we all know that we are only a week into training camp, so it's early.

One consistent thing we have heard from Orton's days in Chicago,"Orton isn't very good at the deep ball."

One consistent thing we have heard from training camp, "Orton has struggled whenever he attempts the deep ball."

One consistent thing from last night's scrimmage, "orton struggled throwing the deep ball."

Again, it was only a scrimmage, but Orton threw two pics last night (one report said three). Is it too early to be concerned?

As you said. It'searly. However, right now it looks bad and that is not even counting the possible difficulties with the long ball.

Dreadnought
08-14-2009, 10:52 PM
As you said. It'searly. However, right now it looks bad and that is not even counting the possible difficulties with the long ball.

Agreed. Orton didn't even look like a professional football player out there. Simms? Not too bad at all, really. I may have to pin my very slender hopes on him :lol:

Tned
08-14-2009, 10:57 PM
Agreed. Orton didn't even look like a professional football player out there. Simms? Not too bad at all, really. I may have to pin my very slender hopes on him :lol:

The ONLY good news is that some of the criticism I received for creating this thread might disappear now. ;)

LRtagger
08-14-2009, 11:06 PM
We should have grabbed Vick when we had the chance

Tned
08-14-2009, 11:10 PM
We should have grabbed Vick when we had the chance

The poodle in my avatar just growled at your post, but I agree with you.

Dreadnought
08-14-2009, 11:14 PM
We should have grabbed Vick when we had the chance

:tsk:

Never. I'd rather lose with Orton