It's early, but how big a concern is the QB position? Do the Broncos have any options?

[TXBRONC]

The ONLY good news is that some of the criticism I received for creating this thread might disappear now. ;)

Unfortunately you were right about Orton and any pass that is mid-range or longer.

[MOtorboat]

Unfortunately you were right about Orton and any pass that is mid-range or longer in this one particular game.

Corrected.

[LRtagger]

The poodle in my avatar just growled at your post, but I agree with you.

OK so maybe AJ Feely will get released :lol:

[Tned]

Corrected.

It's only one game, but let's just all hope you don't have to 'correct' his posts for the next 19 games.

[MOtorboat]

It's only one game, but let's just all hope you don't have to 'correct' his posts for the next 22 games.

Corrected.

[Dean]

The ONLY good news is that some of the criticism I received for creating this thread might disappear now. ;)

Yeah. . . right after pigs are taught to fly.:rolleyes: You have been around longer than to believe that.

:confused:

[MOtorboat]

My post said what I wanted to say. If you don't like it tough shit.

My post said what I wanted to say. If you don't like it tough shit.

[MOtorboat]

My post said what I wanted it to say. If you don't like it tough.

Feel free to correct your own.

I made my point based on over-reactions and gross assumptions made from one preseason game that doesn't matter. I really don't give a shit what you want me to do.

[Tned]

Corrected.

If you have to correct his posts for the next 19 games, we won't be in the post season.

[MOtorboat]

If you have to correct his posts for the next 19 games, we won't be in the post season.

Let us over-react to the first preseason game and sing kumbaya.

www.bearsforums.com.

[Tned]

Let us over-react to the first preseason game and sing kumbaya.

www.bearsforums.com.

Thanks for plugging the new forum. ;)

[TXBRONC]

I made my point based on over-reactions and gross assumptions made from one preseason game that doesn't matter. I really don't give a shit what you want me to do.

You're way off base I'm not over-reacting. I calling for they guy's head but apparently he has problem with intermediate to long range passes. If you can't see that's something you'll have to deal with.

[MOtorboat]

I calling for they guy's head but apparently he has problem with intermediate to long range passes.

I think you're trying to say you're not calling for the guys head, but he has a problem with intermediate to long-range passes. That wasn't communicated very well, so if I assumed wrong, please correct me or slow your typing down next time.

Based on this game, yes, I would agree. But, its the first preseason game in a new, complicated scheme, and his performance tonight has no baring on anything, frankly.

[Tned]

Based on this game, yes, I would agree. But, its the first preseason game in a new, complicated scheme, and his performance tonight has no baring on anything, frankly.

No, his performance tonight is not the end all, be all, but it is consistant with the reports from training camp and the scrimmage at Invesco.

That being said, it is still too early to know how he will do. He's on a new team, which has a new coaching staff, which has implemented a new offensive scheme. Way to early to know what Orton is going to give us this season.

[NameUsedBefore]

Orton played like Orton.

BTW, wtf is up with the use of timeouts? It's like someone accidentally pressing select on Madden out there.

[TXBRONC]

I think you're trying to say you're not calling for the guys head, but he has a problem with intermediate to long-range passes. That wasn't communicated very well, so if I assumed wrong, please correct me or slow your typing down next time.

Based on this game, yes, I would agree. But, its the first preseason game in a new, complicated scheme, and his performance tonight has no baring on anything, frankly.

Well instead of assuming why don't you ask first.

[Dreadnought]

Taken individually, each of the bad scrimmages, bad performance tonight, bad career with the Bears, don't necessarily add up to guaranteed failure, but you'd have to be a blind man not to see a pattern here when you add them together, and that pattern strongly indicates that Kyle Orton blows. That he is not NFL caliber, and never was. the book isn't closed on him of course, but not much by way of positive signs anywhere you look, save for his meaningless 21-12 W-L record.

Simms wasn't bad though.

[TXBRONC]

No, his performance tonight is not the end all, be all, but it is consistant with the reports from training camp and the scrimmage at Invesco.

That being said, it is still too early to know how he will do. He's on a new team, which has a new coaching staff, which has implemented a new offensive scheme. Way to early to know what Orton is going to give us this season.

This what I was trying to get at as well. It also looked like he was more confused by his own offensive plays rather than what the defense was doing.

[MOtorboat]

Well instead of assuming why don't ask first.

Typing and sentence structure are kind of essential on a message board, no?

[NightTrainLayne]

Taken individually, each of the bad scrimmages, bad performance tonight, bad career with the Bears, don't necessarily add up to guaranteed failure, but you'd have to be a blind man not to see a pattern here when you add them together, and that pattern strongly indicates that Kyle Orton blows. That he is not NFL caliber, and never was. the book isn't closed on him of course, but not much by way of positive signs anywhere you look, save for his meaningless 21-12 W-L record.

Simms wasn't bad though.

But the Niner's starting secondary was in street-clothes by the time Simms was playing.

He did look sharp, but it was easier competition.

We've got some work to do at the QB position, no doubt.

[TXBRONC]

Taken individually, each of the bad scrimmages, bad performance tonight, bad career with the Bears, don't necessarily add up to guaranteed failure, but you'd have to be a blind man not to see a pattern here when you add them together, and that pattern strongly indicates that Kyle Orton blows. That he is not NFL caliber, and never was. the book isn't closed on him of course, but not much by way of positive signs anywhere you look, save for his meaningless 21-12 W-L record.

Simms wasn't bad though.


Simms was going up against second and third units nevertheless his passes were much sharper than Orton's.

[Zweems56]

This is kind of sad. I thought my days of cringing whenever our QB dropped back ended when Plummer got the leash put on him. Goddamn it.

[TXBRONC]

Typing and sentence structure are kind of essential on a message board, no?


Not acting like jerk isn't a bad thing either.

[Dreadnought]

But the Niner's starting secondary was in street-clothes by the time Simms was playing.

He did look sharp, but it was easier competition.

We've got some work to do at the QB position, no doubt.

No question - and I'm not ready to put Simms in the Ring of Fame yet either. But he played ball. Orton looked like a pitiful little lamb, and played like one too. As much as I hate(d) Plummer even he wouldn't have thrown three such Godawful picks in a single half. Orton looked by far worse than Jake, and thats really a bad thing.

[aberdien]

We have two unproven backup QB's, so i'd say it's a pretty big concern.

[MOtorboat]

Not acting like jerk isn't bad thing either.

Ditto.

I was just trying to make a joke at first, but you got abrasive, and then you struggled with sentence structure. Forgive me for pointing that out. I apologize.

[NightTrainLayne]

No question - and I'm not ready to put Simms in the Ring of Fame yet either. But he played ball. Orton looked like a pitiful little lamb, and played like one too. As much as I hate(d) Plummer even he wouldn't have thrown three such Godawful picks in a single half. Orton looked by far worse than Jake, and thats really a bad thing.

Well, I suppose the good news is that our backup is Simms instead of Patrick Ramsey. :lol:

[Dean]

But the Niner's starting secondary was in street-clothes by the time Simms was playing.

He did look sharp, but it was easier competition.

We've got some work to do at the QB position, no doubt.

You think that the reason for the ints was the niner's secondary?:confused:

[Tned]

But the Niner's starting secondary was in street-clothes by the time Simms was playing.

He did look sharp, but it was easier competition.

We've got some work to do at the QB position, no doubt.

Not only easier competition, but it appeared the playbook was far simpler with Simms in there.

[NightTrainLayne]

You think that the reason for the ints was the niner's secondary?:confused:

No.

You think Simms was the reason they're second-stringers didn't pick any?

[broncfn90]

man lets not beat around the bush and yes it was only one pre-season game...but orton is just terrible i mean wow 3 picks in 1Q and a half....but sims... man he did that with 2nd and 3rd stringers... do we have a problem... oh hell ya we do

[NameUsedBefore]

Well, you know them 49ers. That's a stingy defense if I've ever seen one. Luckily, Orton will only have to face the Ravens, Steelers, Eagles and Giants during the real thing.

[Northman]

You think that the reason for the ints was the niner's secondary?:confused:

To be fair, the Niners defense is far more improved than it was a few years ago. Although i put more emphasis on Orton's bad decision making and execution im not going to sell the Niner's defense short either. But it wont get any easier in Preseason for Orton so whatever issues he has he better find a way out of it.

[Hawgdriver]

Do we really know Orton's ceiling in McDaniel's system? Serious answers please.

[MOtorboat]

Do we really know Orton's ceiling in McDaniel's system? Serious answers please.

He threw 3 interceptions in one preseason game.

He is the worst quarterback ever.

Please fall in line.

[dunk7]

Here's the question for you folks...will the Broncos sign a QB by next week...Brian Griese maybe? Miss Cleo Lemon?

[MOtorboat]

Here's the question for you folks...will the Broncos sign a QB by next week...Brian Griese maybe? Miss Cleo Lemon?

Most definitely. I mean, I'm almost positive that Larsen will be starting at OLB, so we'll be signing Ingle Martin or Graham Harrell next week.

:rolleyes:

[sneakers]

Here's the question for you folks...will the Broncos sign a QB by next week...Brian Griese maybe? Miss Cleo Lemon?

If you say Cleo Lemons 9 times in the mirror with the lights out while drunk you can summon Bill Devaroe.

[Northman]

Here's the question for you folks...will the Broncos sign a QB by next week...Brian Griese maybe? Miss Cleo Lemon?

Ill get shot for saying this and probably rightfully so but im also bias. Lets go find Aaron Brooks. :D

[Hawgdriver]

If you say Cleo Lemons 9 times in the mirror with the lights out while drunk you can summon Bill Devaroe.

Incarnate or ephemeral?

[dunk7]

Most definitely. I mean, I'm almost positive that Larsen will be starting at OLB, so we'll be signing Ingle Martin or Graham Harrell next week.

:rolleyes:

Graham Harrell is in the CFL...3rd string in the CFL so more than likely better than Orton. Why so negative on Larsen, so I messed up his position, he's still better than Haggan and Haggan at 263 isn't exactly a speedster.

[MOtorboat]

Graham Harrell is in the CFL...3rd string in the CFL so more than likely better than Orton. Why so negative on Larsen, so I messed up his position, he's still better than Haggan and Haggan at 263 isn't exactly a speedster.

Don't know about Graham Harrell, it was a joke. I doubt he's a third-stringer up there, and he certainly isn't better than Orton, so I hope you don't actually believe that.

Larsen is a special teams player. Nothing more, nothing less. Sure, if someone gets injured he gets that fun little distinction of playing both ways. He's not a starter.

As far as OLB...it's either Haggan, Moss or Ayers, because Dumervil is starting on the other side. Larsen, if anything, is a MLB.

[sneakers]

Incarnate or ephemeral?

It's like the movie Candyman except he gives you beer.

[Hawgdriver]

It's like the movie Candyman except he gives you beer.

that is

awesome

[Requiem / The Dagda]

It's like the movie Candyman except he gives you beer.

and OldCrow!

[Reidman]

Can we rewind back to the draft and try to trade up for Sanchez......:lol:

[Ravage!!!]

I wouldn't be surprised to hear of a QB 'competition' heating up in practice though. McDaniels making a statement that the starting QB for next week's pre-season game isn't decided.

No.. I take that back. No way McDaniels would admit to possibly making a mistake this early. He'll stick with Orton.

[Ravage!!!]

Can we rewind back to the draft and try to trade up for Sanchez......:lol:

Ick.. I heard he hasn't impressed anyone so far.

[Broncos Mtnman]

I respect you and Dread, but it is not true that arm strength was any kind of
knock on Orton. In fact, arm strength was considered one of his . . . well,
strengths.

The biggest knock, according to scouting reports, was that Orton was very
raw and needed sound coaching to help him become NFL-ready. He did not
get that at Chicago, and he was thrown to the wolves in his first year. As it
turned out, the pundits were right: Orton was not ready, and his performance
that year was mixed.

I thought it a godsend for Orton that he was traded here to a place where
coaches actually know how to coach QBs. (That also did not exist in Chicago.)
And, from reports out of camp this year . . . which I have avidly read on
different boards . . . he is definitely benefiting from that coaching.

Arm strength has never been a problem for Orton. Anybody who truly knows
about him knows this. He just has had to learn how to be an NFL quarterback.
That can be and is being taught. I don't expect Johnny Unitas to emerge out
of that figurative cocoon, but I do think we will be pleasantly surprised to see
what McDaniels has brought out in Orton. I am going both by what McDaniels
did with Brady and Cassel, combined with what Orton did last year before his
injury and without this coaching.

-----

Apparently, your analysis isn't unanamous.

From SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2005/draft/players/60508.html)

BIO: Moved into the starting lineup as a true freshman. Posted career numbers 60.7 percent/3,090/31/5 as a senior, also adding 112 yards on the ground with three more scores.

POSITIVES: Heady, intelligent passer with solid intangibles. Patient in the pocket, buys time and waits for receivers to come free. Sees the field, reads the blitz and immediately gets the ball to the hot receiver. Possesses a nice sense of timing, leads receivers in the short field and zips the intermediate passes. Outstanding with the ball fakes, does not release the ball until he has an open receiver and always working to make something positive happen. Takes the safe underneath route if nothing's available rather than forcing the throw.

NEGATIVES: Possesses an elongated/wind-up motion, which slows his release. Cannot drive the deep throw as receivers are constantly slowing down to make the reception. Forces passes downfield on occasion and must improve his long accuracy. Does not always see the field outside of the pocket. Benefits from taking most of his snaps out of the shotgun. Fizzled at the end of his senior campaign and was benched.

ANALYSIS: A signal caller who will draw much debate and opinion, Orton has abilities to play in a short passing game. His timing and ability to throw the intermediate pass with accuracy are his best assets, yet he may be a quarterback who struggles in the vertical game. Will need time to learn a pro-passing offense rather than the spread formation he's accustomed to. A solid prospect who should be chosen during late in the draft's first day.

PROJECTION: Mid Fourth Round (he was drafted with the 5th pick in the 4th)

[Broncos Mtnman]

I wouldn't be surprised to hear of a QB 'competition' heating up in practice though. McDaniels making a statement that the starting QB for next week's pre-season game isn't decided.

No.. I take that back. No way McDaniels would admit to possibly making a mistake this early. He'll stick with Orton.

Mickey Mouse is a freakin' genius when it comes to QBs. Didn't you know?

[Broncos Mtnman]

Here's the question for you folks...will the Broncos sign a QB by next week...Brian Griese maybe? Miss Cleo Lemon?

Well, Griese beat Orton out of a job once already in his brief career.

Besides, if all we're going to do is dink and dunk, Griese should make Bronco fans real happy.

Bring him in.

[silkamilkamonico]

Griese was good enough to make the Pro bowl here in Denver also, and that was without the talent they've had at the skill positions the last couple years . Bring him in!

[Hawgdriver]

Mickey Mouse is a freakin' genius when it comes to QBs. Didn't you know?

assuming cutler is traded, what was a better option than kolonel kegger?

[topscribe]

Apparently, your analysis isn't unanamous.

From SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2005/draft/players/60508.html)

BIO: Moved into the starting lineup as a true freshman. Posted career numbers 60.7 percent/3,090/31/5 as a senior, also adding 112 yards on the ground with three more scores.

POSITIVES: Heady, intelligent passer with solid intangibles. Patient in the pocket, buys time and waits for receivers to come free. Sees the field, reads the blitz and immediately gets the ball to the hot receiver. Possesses a nice sense of timing, leads receivers in the short field and zips the intermediate passes. Outstanding with the ball fakes, does not release the ball until he has an open receiver and always working to make something positive happen. Takes the safe underneath route if nothing's available rather than forcing the throw.

NEGATIVES: Possesses an elongated/wind-up motion, which slows his release. Cannot drive the deep throw as receivers are constantly slowing down to make the reception. Forces passes downfield on occasion and must improve his long accuracy. Does not always see the field outside of the pocket. Benefits from taking most of his snaps out of the shotgun. Fizzled at the end of his senior campaign and was benched.

ANALYSIS: A signal caller who will draw much debate and opinion, Orton has abilities to play in a short passing game. His timing and ability to throw the intermediate pass with accuracy are his best assets, yet he may be a quarterback who struggles in the vertical game. Will need time to learn a pro-passing offense rather than the spread formation he's accustomed to. A solid prospect who should be chosen during late in the draft's first day.

PROJECTION: Mid Fourth Round (he was drafted with the 5th pick in the 4th)

Apparently, you somehow have missed all my other posts, even though I
have posted all over the place. Nothing in this report contradicts what I have
posted. Put in other words, I have posted what this report says.

-----

[Dean]

Griese was good enough to make the Pro bowl here in Denver also, and that was without the talent they've had at the skill positions the last couple years . Bring him in!

That was before he injured his shoulder and went ahead and played out the game. IMO Griese never was the same after that.

[Tned]

Mickey Mouse is a freakin' genius when it comes to QBs. Didn't you know?

So was Shanahan. Shanahan turned Plummer into a winner, so there is still reason to hope for good things out of Orton.

:coffee:

[Dreadnought]

So was Shanahan. Shanahan turned Plummer into a winner, so there is still reason to hope for good things out of Orton.

:coffee:

Yep, its possible. You want to bet your mortgage on that happening though? I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised, but he looked every bit as bad as I feared he would, and considering I rated him in the bottom 5 or so NFL QB's when he was with Chicago thats not encouraging. The Bears didn't throw him in with a pair of Firsts because they had any faith in his future after all - and this after 3 years of getting to watch his work in more detail than any of us have.

I'm not jumping off a cliff, and he could still turn it around, but past performance says he is one of the worst starting NFL QB's of the last decade. Why wouldn't I be concerned?

[underrated29]

We are NOT going to bring in another QB guys. So get over it. Our offense is the hardest offense in the legue to learn, besides the pats. There is No way that someone could come in now and run it better than orton or simms, unless their name is brady or cassel.

Neither of them is coming here.


It was a preseason game with about 25 plays. Seriously, thats all i saw out of our pass attack was 25 different plays. THats 2 pages of our playbook. And those plays are probably not our highest percentage plays that we have.

Looking at the game, and looking at the numbers you can tell we have the goods we just arent in sync yet.

If this is still happening after the 3rd preseason game, then you can worry.

[Ravage!!!]

I think after last night, this thread has a lot more validity

[Ravage!!!]

People said the same thing about Shanahan's offense... "its the hardest in the NFL to learn." I don't think that McDaniels offense is any harder than Shanahan's.... yet we did have a rookie starting (at the end of the year) and Orton isn't some first year NFL player. That excuse isn't going to hold much water for very long.

The INTs were NOT due to him not knowing the offense. They were bad throws. So if they only had 25 plays, then why couldn't the QB execute those? Seems he surely could have those down and understood, right?

I honestly would have felt better if it WAS the lack of understanding that could be the excuse here, but it honestly can't. Those were just flat out bad throws, and that has nothing to do with any offensive scheme.

[roomemp]

Let me start off first by saying that I am a Big Orton supporter. The INT's from last night are not the things that bother me (of course they bother me but its the first preseason game) The thing that bothered me about Orton last night was his short and intermediate passes. I really never watched Orton up close till last night so I never bought into everyone saying he had a weak arm, but last night, it looked like he had a weak arm. I really don't care that he can't throw a 50 yard bomb but his short and intermidiate passes looked like lame ducks. Maybe he just puts a lot of touch on his passes. He just kinda floated them out there. That scares me. Maybe he was just nervous. I am still willing to give him time to develop before I call for his head though.

Simms looked pretty good so that is a big plus

[Lonestar]

That was before he was injured his shoulder and went ahead and played out the game. IMO Griese never was the same after that.

I liked Griese overall, thought he had a lot of grit, liked his foundation work.. but after his shoulder separation he was never the same and I started to see thing about him that bothered me.. Perhaps he was doing it before but I did not notice it.. He would call out the WR that ran the wrong route and if he made a mistake he would sit by himself on the bench and brood about it..

He never had great arm strength and after the injury he was MR dink and dunk.. I think they asked to to be himself before he was really fully healed and after that he lost confidence in himself..


So was Shanahan. Shanahan turned Plummer into a winner, so there is still reason to hope for good things out of Orton.

:coffee:

Jake learned more from Gary and Mike and mike game planned around his leadership and strengths.. which is what good coaches do.. they do not try to make fillet mignon out of ground round..

Jake was a damned good QB in a system.. if not called to pass from the pocket their where few among his peers.. did not have a rocket arm but then neither do the vast majority of the QB's in the NFL..

I believe the Josh will find out what make Orton or Simms tick and we will be fine.. I do not believe it is time to panic after one game.. NO need for Chicken Little appear yet.. so chill out folks..

[Ravage!!!]

Let me start off first by saying that I am a Big Orton supporter. The INT's from last night are not the things that bother me (of course they bother me but its the first preseason game) The thing that bothered me about Orton last night was his short and intermediate passes. I really never watched Orton up close till last night so I never bought into everyone saying he had a weak arm, but last night, it looked like he had a weak arm. I really don't care that he can't throw a 50 yard bomb but his short and intermidiate passes looked like lame ducks. Maybe he just puts a lot of touch on his passes. He just kinda floated them out there. That scares me. Maybe he was just nervous. I am still willing to give him time to develop before I call for his head though.

Simms looked pretty good so that is a big plus


You have some good points here. I too, am not worried about the 50 yrd deep route, and don't consider that to be the sign of a 'strong arm.' Its the intermediate routes that just seem, as you put it, float. Thats why I think corners are able to sit on routes longer, and as a result be able to jump those routes.

I think Drough has the point that makes me wonder the most. There is a reason that Chicago was willing to trade away 2 first round picks.. AND.. throw in Orton

But.. even as much as I've stated that I'm not a big believer in his abilities, I'm certainly willing to look past the first pre-season game and not take too much away from it. Other than to make me watch that much closer on the second.

[T.K.O.]

1 of the picks was not orton's fault....the other 2 were horrible throws.
that long one was really bad he stared down the reciever forever then floated it....fugly
BUT.....it was the 1st game of a new qb with a new team,new scheme...etc...
no excuses he had 2 really bad throws,but he also moved the chains well.
there is plenty of time to get more comfortable in the system and get timing with his recievers (marshall returning will help giving him a great yac guy.
its not like we had 3 games left with a playoff spot on the line and he threw 3 picks.
i was impressed with simms (and may have to change my name to T.P.S.)
and the rest of the team considering they rallied to what should have been a tie after having their 1st 3 drives turn to shyt,even the d held their own and only allowed 10 points...thats gotta be the lowest in a long time.

well i'm leaving for vacation tonight and i may not check in to often for a few days...keep the faith bretheren.....its a long season before the fat lady sings !

p.s. yes T.P.S. (team phil simms) was also a reference to "office space"
that's greeeeaaaaat !

[broncophan]

Well......it's only one meaningless preseason game........but God help us all if we have to "count" on Orton...or Simms....or whoever the qb is.. to win games for the team.Not a knock against either of those guys....

As the broncos rebuild....this season and so on.....they will need the qb to not lose games.....or don't put the team in bad situations etc........rather than do something extraordinary to win games.

Hopefully Orton will be o.k...........I can't take a whole lot of 3 int. games from our qb....whether it is pre season or not...

[broncohead]

1 of the picks was not orton's fault....the other 2 were horrible throws.
that long one was really bad he stared down the reciever forever then floated it....fugly
BUT.....it was the 1st game of a new qb with a new team,new scheme...etc...
no excuses he had 2 really bad throws,but he also moved the chains well.
there is plenty of time to get more comfortable in the system and get timing with his recievers (marshall returning will help giving him a great yac guy.
its not like we had 3 games left with a playoff spot on the line and he threw 3 picks.
i was impressed with simms (and may have to change my name to T.P.S.)
and the rest of the team considering they rallied to what should have been a tie after having their 1st 3 drives turn to shyt,even the d held their own and only allowed 10 points...thats gotta be the lowest in a long time.

well i'm leaving for vacation tonight and i may not check in to often for a few days...keep the faith bretheren.....its a long season before the fat lady sings !

p.s. yes T.P.S. (team phil simms) was also a reference to "office space"
that's greeeeaaaaat !

How was one of the INTs not his fault? The one to Graham in the TD should have been thrown to the other sholder. Bly's int should have been thrown higher. The last one was a horrible throw. All his fault.

[TXBRONC]

Yep, its possible. You want to bet your mortgage on that happening though? I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised, but he looked every bit as bad as I feared he would, and considering I rated him in the bottom 5 or so NFL QB's when he was with Chicago thats not encouraging. The Bears didn't throw him in with a pair of Firsts because they had any faith in his future after all - and this after 3 years of getting to watch his work in more detail than any of us have.

I'm not jumping off a cliff, and he could still turn it around, but past performance says he is one of the worst starting NFL QB's of the last decade. Why wouldn't I be concerned?

Do you think maybe part of Orton's probllem might be that having problems picking up the offense.

[Simple Jaded]

Do you think maybe part of Orton's probllem might be that having problems picking up the offense.

I think that's the problem for any QB in preseason game #1 of a new scheme, who is playing with new teammates learning a new scheme, but it's especially a problem for a QB that took 4 years to adjust to the NFL.

It's just too early to expect Orton to shine, imo, especially with him being a QB that isn't that good in the first place. Patience is key, Orton will get better, how much better is the question, he just better hope Broncos fans don't expect him to become something he's never been.

Dude has a lot on his plate, that's for sure.......

[NameUsedBefore]

Do you think maybe part of Orton's probllem might be that having problems picking up the offense.

There was one mess-up between Orton and a receiver, but beyond that all his throws looked like they were designed that way. Just sloppy passing.

[guitarj]

A little off topic but, Cutler just had a pick on the 2nd series in his Bears opener. on the third series he hit a Bills defender right between the numbers, which should have been pick #2..........

just sayin....:shocked:

[MOtorboat]

A little off topic but, Cutler just had a pick on the 2nd series in his Bears opener. on the third series he hit a Bills defender right between the numbers, which should have been pick #2..........

just sayin....:shocked:

...and then had to settle for a FG when he tried to force a pass to a triple-covered wide receiver...

These games don't matter, people...

[guitarj]

just turned the game on, and first seeing Cutler in a bears uniform made me feel kinda like seeing seeing an ex with another guy. Then he throws a pick. I must admit...it made me smile:D

[Watchthemiddle]

Saw that by Cutler...both the pick and the near pick...:laugh:

Anyway...

The QB play last night by Orton was no different then what we had had to live with for the past two seasons. Simms looked pretty solid with less targets than Orton had.

This is the preseason, the time to make mistakes, review film, learn from them and move on. Non of these stats matter come week one at Cincy.

If they don't get better at the start of the season then its time to be concerned...other than that it can only get better from here.

[dunk7]

The QB play last night by Orton was no different then what we had had to live with for the past two seasons. Simms looked pretty solid with less targets than Orton had.

By "We" do you mean Bears fans cause I don't remember Cutler throwing 10 yard passes like they were hail mary's

[T.K.O.]

uh oh..... looks like the bears better trade cutler....he was 5/10 with 1 int on the night.
obviously he will never be able to pick up the bears offense or get his timing down with new recievers.
....oh wait its the 1st preseason game...maybe there is hope he isnt a total bust.;)

[Simple Jaded]

uh oh..... looks like the bears better trade cutler....he was 5/10 with 1 int on the night.
obviously he will never be able to pick up the bears offense or get his timing down with new recievers.
....oh wait its the 1st preseason game...maybe there is hope he isnt a total bust.;)

Thank you Capt. Sarcasm. :D.......

[TXBRONC]

uh oh..... looks like the bears better trade cutler....he was 5/10 with 1 int on the night.
obviously he will never be able to pick up the bears offense or get his timing down with new recievers.
....oh wait its the 1st preseason game...maybe there is hope he isnt a total bust.;)

I don't know why anyone would be worried about how Cutler is doing with Bears he's not our quarterback anymore.

[Lonestar]

Just have to wonder if three really bad passes by jay in ttwo series is going to be excused. By the jay lovers.

[Northman]

uh oh..... looks like the bears better trade cutler....he was 5/10 with 1 int on the night.
obviously he will never be able to pick up the bears offense or get his timing down with new recievers.
....oh wait its the 1st preseason game...maybe there is hope he isnt a total bust.;)

I dont know, Hannie went 8/11 89 yds and a TD. Im thinking QB contraversy in Chi-town. :lol:

[Tned]

Just have to wonder if three really bad passes by jay in ttwo series is going to be excused. By the jay lovers.

Just have to wonder if Marhsall has a good season, if you will quit ragging on him with $$$ and stuff in his spelling? Just have to wonder if Jay goes to the Pro-bowl the next three years, if you will quit saying he is worthless?

Lots of things I wonder?

[Lonestar]

Have not used the $ in marshall fo along time since you asked me not two.

If jay goes to the pro bowll the next three years I'll think about it. :D

FWIW I do not think I've ever said he is worthless..

[guitarj]

The QB play last night by Orton was no different then what we had had to live with for the past two seasons.

Oh common now....you know that is not true. Although reckless at times, to say cutler was that bad, is just being so polarized in your opinion. Yet we were only able to draft 5 players in the the first 2 rounds this year because Jay was so bad and worth so little.

The guy has got skills, and with a little growing up.......well, mabe a lot, he will be a franchise player for years to come. I just hope it doesnt happen this year, and da bears tank it so we can draft a franchise qb of our own next year

[Superchop 7]

Orton played up to my expectations.

[TXBRONC]

Oh common now....you know that is not true. Although reckless at times, to say cutler was that bad, is just being so polarized in your opinion. Yet we were only able to draft 5 players in the the first 2 rounds this year because Jay was so bad and worth so little.

The guy has got skills, and with a little growing up.......well, mabe a lot, he will be a franchise player for years to come. I just hope it doesnt happen this year, and da bears tank it so we can draft a franchise qb of our own next year

I have a feeling we wouldn't draft a quarterback at least not early. I think next year we will still need to address the nose tackle position.

[MOtorboat]

Orton played up to my expectations.

What about Cutler...that was stellar!

Oh...wait...it's freakin' PRESEASON!

[guitarj]

I have a feeling we wouldn't draft a quarterback at least not early. I think next year we will still need to address the nose tackle position.

It will be interesting to see how things transpire at those 2 positions this year. Wouldnt it be nice if neither position was a dire need next year!

[rcsodak]

You would be shocked how many more we could have scored if the defense didn't suck. And it can all be linked to one stat, points off of turnovers. Something our offense had close to no points in and it wasn't their fault either.

Well, LS, you're assuming, no?

And without stretching toooo far to make your point, just look back to a few games where the team struggled to score even 10pts. And it WASN'T because they were going up against top-ranked D's, either.

I just think the now 'ex' qb didn't have "IT", and wasn't the end-all-be-all that alot of people portray him to be.

[rcsodak]

I think you're trying to say you're not calling for the guys head, but he has a problem with intermediate to long-range passes. That wasn't communicated very well, so if I assumed wrong, please correct me or slow your typing down next time.

Based on this game, yes, I would agree. But, its the first preseason game in a new, complicated scheme, and his performance tonight has no baring on anything, frankly.

I think you were trying to say the 1st preseason game had no "bearing" on anything....if not, please correct me or slow your typing down next time.


Otherwise, I agree. :coffee:

[rcsodak]

Ick.. I heard he hasn't impressed anyone so far.

Yea......that's why he's been announced as the STARTER for game 2. :coffee:

[rcsodak]

By "We" do you mean Bears fans cause I don't remember Cutler throwing 10 yard passes like they were hail mary's
I believe he was talking int's....incompletions....et al. :coffee:

The big thing that I didn't see, from the game, was Orton sitting all by himself on the bench, contemplating whether or not to cry.

At least denver has an adult at the #1 positions......

[rcsodak]

I don't know why anyone would be worried about how Cutler is doing with Bears he's not our quarterback anymore.

I'll be sure to save this quote of yours, Tx, for down the road.

For some reason, I can see you and others bringing up his play. :rolleyes:

[aberdien]

Call me weird, but i'm more concerned about Kyle Orton sucking than Jay Cutler sucking. I guess i'm not that interested in hoping for our old QB to fail.

[silkamilkamonico]

What about Cutler...that was stellar!!


I'll go ahead and comment for him...




no comment

[elsid13]

He is a disciple of Bills and thought piolii walked on water they were successful with both brady and casselll. What makes you feel he would not stay true to form.

The same thing mike did relying on unknown RB's to tote the rock. Even though portis was a second rounder he was not thought of to be a first day guy by most of the coaches.

I don't see Josh doing something UN-NE at all in the draft.

When was the last time you saw that duo give up a first rounder without getting additional picks the next year. Beside both Belicheat and Pioli were never forced to get that franchise quarterback. They had Bledsoe when they started in NE and lucked into Brady. Cassell was never seen as a guy, just someone that worth a 7th round look at because of scout, and it yet to see if he any good or one hit wonder.

[claymore]

Its kinda funny/weird. Kyle Orton leads the league in worst QB rating, while Simms leads the league with the best QB rating.

I know its only the first pre-season... But Orton blows ass. We really screwed the pooch by trading our # 1 (next year) for Alphonso Smith.

I really dont like Chris Simms at all. If he becomes a good QB for us, I guess I will root for that albino bastage....

But I think we are screwed. And we may miss the Wade Phillips years.

[CoachChaz]

One game. The guy rushed a few passes that resulted in turnovers in the FIRST PRE-SEASON GAME and immediately our season is over. Really?

I noticed Cutler had a pretty bad game in his debut. Wonder if Bears fans are cashing in their season as well.

[sneakers]

One game. The guy rushed a few passes that resulted in turnovers in the FIRST PRE-SEASON GAME and immediately our season is over. Really?

I noticed Cutler had a pretty bad game in his debut. Wonder if Bears fans are cashing in their season as well.

The bears don't have a history of stellar quarterback play....so as long as their qb still has opposible thumbs, bears fans are happy.

[claymore]

One game. The guy rushed a few passes that resulted in turnovers in the FIRST PRE-SEASON GAME and immediately our season is over. Really?

I noticed Cutler had a pretty bad game in his debut. Wonder if Bears fans are cashing in their season as well.

Cutler had a stellar game in comparison to Ortons. Those few bad passes were all turnovers, and OUR Defense has been doing this to him since camp has begun.

Is it safe to call him a turd if he is still doing this by game 4 of the pre-season? When can we admit that Orton is a POS an McD screwed us?

[CoachChaz]

Cutler had a stellar game in comparison to Ortons. Those few bad passes were all turnovers, and OUR Defense has been doing this to him since camp has begun.

Is it safe to call him a turd if he is still doing this by game 4 of the pre-season? When can we admit that Orton is a POS an McD screwed us?

We can admit Orton sucks whenever we please, I suppose. As far as McD screwing us...we could win 3 super bowl's in a row and the haters will still be the haters...and for reasons they dont even know. When ANY McD hater can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that McD orchestrated the whole Cutler debacle and show me that Cutler acted completely mature about the whole thing...then we can blame McD. Until then, it's fear of change amongst fans that have their heads so far up Cutlers ass based on his potential that they cant see reality.

[CoachChaz]

The bears don't have a history of stellar quarterback play....so as long as their qb still has opposible thumbs, bears fans are happy.

Oh, so because we've had ONE great QB in our 49 year history, we should accept nothing but immediate excellence from any QB that steps on the field. Seriously?

[claymore]

We can admit Orton sucks whenever we please, I suppose. As far as McD screwing us...we could win 3 super bowl's in a row and the haters will still be the haters...and for reasons they dont even know. When ANY McD hater can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that McD orchestrated the whole Cutler debacle and show me that Cutler acted completely mature about the whole thing...then we can blame McD. Until then, it's fear of change amongst fans that have their heads so far up Cutlers ass based on his potential that they cant see reality.

The Cutler thing lies somewhere in the middle. Do I believe McD started it? Yes I do. Do I think Cutler came to Denver and tried to mend things up, and JMCD was antagonistic? Yes I do. Do I believe Jay Cutler went off the deep end after that? Yes I do.

Blame is on both sides, Cutler payed the price as did anyone who bought his jersey.

I think this team is worse off because of it. Thus far Orton has been terrible, all I have to go off of is the past. Maybe Orton will change and become a good QB for this team, but as of right now he sucks. After one scrimmage, and on preseason, Orton is probably the worst starting QB in the NFL.

[sneakers]

Oh, so because we've had ONE great QB in our 49 year history, we should accept nothing but immediate excellence from any QB that steps on the field. Seriously?

The bears have had one great qb in their 80 or 90 year history (sid luckman)

[CoachChaz]

The Cutler thing lies somewhere in the middle. Do I believe McD started it? Yes I do. Do I think Cutler came to Denver and tried to mend things up, and JMCD was antagonistic? Yes I do. Do I believe Jay Cutler went off the deep end after that? Yes I do.

Blame is on both sides, Cutler payed the price as did anyone who bought his jersey.

I think this team is worse off because of it. Thus far Orton has been terrible, all I have to go off of is the past. Maybe Orton will change and become a good QB for this team, but as of right now he sucks. After one scrimmage, and on preseason, Orton is probably the worst starting QB in the NFL.

I'm not going to tell anyone what they should and shouldnt believe, but I'd really like to hear the reasons they believe certain things. NONE of us have enough information to drawn an educated conclusion as to what happened. All we can go on is what we've heard and seen and that pretty much equates to nothing. Therefore, it's assumption.

[CoachChaz]

The bears have had one great qb in their 80 or 90 year history (sid luckman)

I guess I'm missing the point.

[Tned]

We can admit Orton sucks whenever we please, I suppose. As far as McD screwing us...we could win 3 super bowl's in a row and the haters will still be the haters...and for reasons they dont even know.

Well, I was about to Hi-Five this post of yours and tell you how right you were. And, for this first half posted about, you are dead on. The haters (whether McD, Shanny, Cutler or Orton) just want to hate and it doesn't matter what is accomplished.

However:


When ANY McD hater can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that McD orchestrated the whole Cutler debacle and show me that Cutler acted completely mature about the whole thing...then we can blame McD. Until then, it's fear of change amongst fans that have their heads so far up Cutlers ass based on his potential that they cant see reality.

I'm not sure why people can't reach a middle ground where it seems pretty clear that Cutler and McDaniels had a hand in what happened.

Maybe McDaniels only took phone calls, but he could have handled the situation better (based on what was in the press). He wouldn't come out and say "Jay's my guy" unless he also added a "but, anyone on the team can be traded." Everything after the 'but' is a given in the NFL, and McDaniels didn't have to show he was in charge by adding that whenever he talked about Jay and the botched trade.

On the flip side, at a certain point (and we don't really know when) Jay clearly made up his mind he didn't want to be in Denver and stopped taking phone calls (even Champ couldn't get through to him).

So, who was 'more' wrong, I don't know, you don't know, none of us know, because we don't have all the details. However, I think we should all be able to agree that they both made mistakes and handled things wrong.

Further, about the haters, it isn't just McDaniels haters, you have Shanny haters, Orton haters, Cutler haters, Bowlen haters, Marshall haters.....

Geez, why his there so much hate in Broncos land?

[Tned]

Oh, so because we've had ONE great QB in our 49 year history, we should accept nothing but immediate excellence from any QB that steps on the field. Seriously?

Some feel that because we have only had four losing seasons in the last 25 years, and non back to back, that we are the Broncos and we 'never' go through rebuilding. Losing/rebuilding is ok for other teams, but not for the Broncos, we are a different type of franchise.

[TXBRONC]

One game. The guy rushed a few passes that resulted in turnovers in the FIRST PRE-SEASON GAME and immediately our season is over. Really?

I noticed Cutler had a pretty bad game in his debut. Wonder if Bears fans are cashing in their season as well.

Orton looked tentative to me on those throws.

[claymore]

I'm not going to tell anyone what they should and shouldnt believe, but I'd really like to hear the reasons they believe certain things. NONE of us have enough information to drawn an educated conclusion as to what happened. All we can go on is what we've heard and seen and that pretty much equates to nothing. Therefore, it's assumption.

JMCD admitted he started the whole mess. Cutler did come to town and met with JMCD, and left madder than when he arrived. After that, it becomes speculation.

I feel safe forming my opinion off of these 2 events.

[claymore]

Orton looked tentative to me on those throws.

49'ers raved on how catchable his passes were. :D

[Mike]

The sky is falling. The sky is falling.

:blabla:

[Traveler]

Wow! The meltdown wasn't as bad as I expected.

Orton didn't do much to inspire confidence in the fans this season, huh? I've been behind the new coach since he was hired and will continue to back him. As for Orton, I've never been sold on him from day one. My initial reaction to getting Orton as part of the trade was he was stopgap at best.

His body of work in Friday's game was okay but the INT's were awful and looked quite similar to many of JC INT's last year. Anyone thinking Orton or Simms are the long term answers at QB are kidding themselves.

We WILL have to address the QB situation again in the next few years. That's one truth that folks on both sides have to agree on.

That said, it's was only the the first preseason game. No time to panic yet. Let's see whre we are after the 3rd preseason game.

[Traveler]

49'ers raved on how catchable his passes were. :D

That was funny!:D

[Tned]

Wow! The meltdown wasn't as bad as I expected.

Orton didn't do much to inspire confidence in the fans this season, huh? I've been behind the new coach since he was hired and will continue to back him. As for Orton, I've never been sold on him from day one. My initial reaction to getting Orton as part of the trade was he was stopgap at best.

His body of work in Friday's game was okay but the INT's were awful and looked quite similar to many of JC INT's last year. Anyone thinking Orton or Simms are the long term answers at QB are kidding themselves.

We WILL have to address the QB situation again in the next few years. That's one truth that folks on both sides have to agree on.

That said, it's was only the the first preseason game. No time to panic yet. Let's see whre we are after the 3rd preseason game.

I mentioned the other day, that except for the three INTs (and I know that's a BIG except), Orton played pretty well. What I mean is that the offense moved the ball very well, but then hat the INTs.

Now, if the INTs weren't an aberration, then we have a problem, but hopefully they were.

[MOtorboat]

I mentioned the other day, that except for the three INTs (and I know that's a BIG except), Orton played pretty well. What I mean is that the offense moved the ball very well, but then hat the INTs.

Now, if the INTs weren't an aberration, then we have a problem, but hopefully they were.

Looked a lot like last season. ;)

FWIW, Schlereth said the same exact thing this morning on Mike and Mike.

[Tned]

Looked a lot like last season. ;)

FWIW, Schlereth said the same exact thing this morning on Mike and Mike.

Did he say anything about our front 7? He had previously said they were garbage, before ever seeing them.

[topscribe]

Did he say anything about our front 7? He had previously said they were garbage, before ever seeing them.

Yes, I would like to hear what Schlereth has to say now (although it was only
one game so far). I have had a lot of respect for what he has said about
several things, but what he said about the front seven the other day really did
disappoint me since he seemed to think he knew something the coaches didn't.

-----

[MOtorboat]

Did he say anything about our front 7? He had previously said they were garbage, before ever seeing them.

No, I just caught the tail end of them talking about Orton, and they went on to talk about Cutler and Cassell in the next few sentences, and went to a break, so I switched over to the local guys, who were making fun of Chuck Lidell on Dancing with the Stars...

[TXBRONC]

I mentioned the other day, that except for the three INTs (and I know that's a BIG except), Orton played pretty well. What I mean is that the offense moved the ball very well, but then hat the INTs.

Now, if the INTs weren't an aberration, then we have a problem, but hopefully they were.

You're someone that usually keep fairly close eye on stats. Do you happen to know the break down where he threw the ball. (Percentages to the left, right, middle, and short, intermediate, and long)

[BroncoTech]

All of his completions were short right. Like 5 of them or so. Nothing over 20 yards.

[MOtorboat]

You're someone that usually keep fairly close eye on stats. Do you happen to know the break down where he threw the ball. (Percentages to the left, right, middle, and short, intermediate, and long)

Short Right 7-13, 77 yards, 2 INT

Short Middle 0-1, 0 yards

Short Left 1-1, 3 yards

Deep Left 0-1, 0 yards, 1 INT

[Tned]

Short Right 7-13, 77 yards, 2 INT

Short Middle 0-1, 0 yards

Short Left 1-1, 3 yards

Deep Left 0-1, 0 yards, 1 INT

That would be consistant with a weaker armed right handed QB, especially one still learning the system. He's going to be more accurate and comortable thowing right. His natural backpeddling will have him look right. And, he doesn't have the arm strength to fling it left (across his body), he needs to make progressions, turn left and step into the throw.

Hopefully, when he is more comfortable with the system (and with Marshall often on the left), he will use the left side more, because if he routinely uses only half the field, it is easier to defense the pass game.

Do any of the stat sites have left/right/center splits for him from last year?

[topscribe]

That would be consistant with a weaker armed right handed QB, especially one still learning the system. He's going to be more accurate and comortable thowing right. His natural backpeddling will have him look right. And, he doesn't have the arm strength to fling it left (across his body), he needs to make progressions, turn left and step into the throw.

Hopefully, when he is more comfortable with the system (and with Marshall often on the left), he will use the left side more, because if he routinely uses only half the field, it is easier to defense the pass game.

Do any of the stat sites have left/right/center splits for him from last year?

http://nationalpost.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7282&team=&page=splits

Orton's passing to the left is nearly identical to the right. In fact, his
sideline splits indicate he's better on the deep outs to the left than to the
right.


Incidentally, his monthly splits are interesting. It looks as if he was improving
from September to October, then his stats fell in November, which would
coincide with his injury. Then his stats improved again in December. Would
that perhaps correlate to a measure of recovery from his injury? Interesting . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

http://nationalpost.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7282&team=&page=splits

Orton's passing to the left is nearly identical to the right. In fact, his
sideline splits indicate he's better on the deep outs to the left.


Incidentally, his monthly splits are interesting. It looks as if he was improving
from September to October, then his stats fell in November, which would
coincide with his injury. Then his stats improved again in December. Would
that perhaps correlate to a measure of recovery from his injury? Interesting . . .

-----

your beating a dead horse as many folks have written him off because he is not jay or John.. they will never be satisfied by a mere mortal again..

they expect a rocket armed QB that can make any throw on the field and if he can not then they will chant we want jay back..


as Tned said in another thread I think, DEN fans are spoiled and expect to much..

I suspect they want 20 pro bowlers on each yearly squad and do not realize they only need 22 good to great players playing as a team to win and win consistently..

[Simple Jaded]

Saying that Orton played well, aside from his mistakes, isn't saying much, the dude was not asked to do much, seems like every play on that opening drive was short right, short right, short right, and even those passes were inaccurate.

That's not saying much at all, but then again, it's just preseason game #1 for a brand new team, of course they're not asking them do much and they have plenty of time to get it together.......

[Simple Jaded]

My problem with Orton is that he is so thoroughly average in every way, not just in arm strenght.......

[claymore]

your beating a dead horse as many folks have written him off because he is not jay or John.. they will never be satisfied by a mere mortal again..

they expect a rocket armed QB that can make any throw on the field and if he can not then they will chant we want jay back..


as Tned said in another thread I think, DEN fans are spoiled and expect to much..

I suspect they want 20 pro bowlers on each yearly squad and do not realize they only need 22 good to great players playing as a team to win and win consistently..
We instantly downgraded our team the second we traded Cutler. I cant believe you are blindly happy with that.

My problem with Orton is that he is so thoroughly average in every way, not just in arm strenght.......

He is less than average. He is sub par/terrible thus far.

[claymore]

Saying that Orton played well, aside from his mistakes, isn't saying much, the dude was not asked to do much, seems like every play on that opening drive was short right, short right, short right, and even those passes were inaccurate.

That's not saying much at all, but then again, it's just preseason game #1 for a brand new team, of course they're not asking them do much and they have plenty of time to get it together.......

I net the next game he takes his time, then gets sacked a bunch. They can blame Clady then.

[Simple Jaded]

I net the next game he takes his time, then gets sacked a bunch. They can blame Clady then.

Either that or the receivers were not getting open, the discussion will inevitably lead to how Cutler wrote the book on taking too long and making his OL look worse than they really are.......

[elsid13]

http://nationalpost.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7282&team=&page=splits

Orton's passing to the left is nearly identical to the right. In fact, his
sideline splits indicate he's better on the deep outs to the left than to the
right.


Incidentally, his monthly splits are interesting. It looks as if he was improving
from September to October, then his stats fell in November, which would
coincide with his injury. Then his stats improved again in December. Would
that perhaps correlate to a measure of recovery from his injury? Interesting . . .

-----

Or more likely defenses got film on what Chicago was doing with the offense and started to take those options away. Around weeks 6/7/8 teams have enough film on any offense to start making the right adjustments to take what QB is doing away and force him to make passes he is not comfortable with.

[topscribe]

Or more likely defenses got film on what Chicago was doing with the offense and started to take those options away. Around weeks 6/7/8 teams have enough film on any offense to start making the right adjustments to take what QB is doing away and force him to make passes he is not comfortable with.

You can speculate and present it as fact if you want. I prefer to go with facts
that are indeed facts. Notice that I present my speculation as speculation . . .

Nonetheless, let's examine your hypothesis: So around the first of November,
teams know Orton and take away what he is doing. Then, beginning December,
they forget all about what he is doing, so he starts doing better again.

Does that make sense? :confused:

-----

[elsid13]

You can speculate and present it as fact if you want.

I prefer to go with facts that are indeed facts . . .

Notice that I present my speculation as speculation . . .

-----

There isn't much speculation in the fact that it takes defense coordinators about 6 weeks to get enough film on what opponents offenses are doing that season and start scheming to take those options away. There is reason if you look at the stats of QB, they start to slide in middle part of the season.

If Orton's injury was effecting his performance that much why was he allowed to play?

[topscribe]

There isn't much speculation in the fact that it takes defense coordinators about 6 weeks to get enough film on what opponents offenses are doing that season and start scheming to take those options away. There is reason if you look at the stats of QB, they start to slide in middle part of the season.

If Orton's injury was effecting his performance that much why was he allowed to play?

Here is a question for you: Did you bother to read the article I cited here?

Here's more: How many clips did you study of Orton? How many if his games
have you watched? Have you listened to all of his interviews, all you can get
your hands on, anyway? Just how extensive was your research of him?

Or are you just like others: not interested in all that but still all too willing to
form your opinions?

Just asking . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

We instantly downgraded our team the second we traded Cutler. I cant believe you are blindly happy with that.
r.

All we did was down grade arm strenth.

So far the decision making seems to remain at the same level.

What we did not see was KO going to the sidelines to sulk.



What we did not see was him throwing his teammates under the bus.



What we did see was him talking to the coaches and recievers In a calm manner to work on what went wrong.

I feel bad for all the jay lovers that do not get jay is not a team player that is needed in this system.

Jay is doing the same crap on his dream team he did here. If Y'all love him that much time to go to the bears forums to profess your undying man love for him.

As for KO I remain a Bronco fan and will abide by the decisions of the HC as I suspect he is a better judge of QB's than anyone here. If it is CS KO or TB it matters not to me.

[elsid13]

Here is a question for you: Did you bother to read the article I cited here?

Here's more: How many clips did you study of Orton? How many if his games
have you watched? Have you listened to all of his interviews, all you can get
your hands on, anyway? Just how extensive was your research of him?

Or are you just like others: not interested in all that but still all too willing to
form your opinions?

Just asking . . .

-----

I don't why you are upset that I offered an alternative reasonable reason why Chicago/Orton stats looked like that. I made no indication that middle of the season drop off was Orton's fault or proves that he's bad QB. Rather instead of folks running around and claiming that Orton only struggled last season because of the ankle injury, I think we need to put it in a context of what happen during any football season. There rarely a single point failure that can pointed to for any players that struggles on the field in NFL.

And yes I do have opinion about Orton, I find him to be an average QB that will be successful if his team is successful and everything doesn't break down. When things break down and they do alot in the NFL, he struggles and sometimes panics as seen in the TB/Chicago game last season.

The are issues that really concern me.

1. He has horrible footwork. McDaniels all ready stated that in beginning that he need to work on Orton footwork
2. His release is very slow. That showed on the first INT during the SF game when he had Hillis open in the flat, but didn't have the ball ready to go. His lack of arm strength only means that he needs to depends on this timing more then anything else.
3. He really needs to able to step into his throws, and that means a clean pocket, which rarely happens in the NFL. QB are forced to throw off their back-foot more then folks realize in the NFL.
4. He doesn't have the arm strength to throw outs to the opposite side of the field in the middle range (which is were the great ones excel). So McDaniels is going to have to scheme to ensure defense don't roll coverage to the near side forcing Orton in throws he just can not make.

Can he be successful yes, but it depends on getting his timing and release better then what it is today.

[topscribe]

I don't why you are upset that I offered an alternative reasonable reason why Chicago/Orton stats looked like that. I made no indication that middle of the season drop off was Orton's fault or proves that he's bad QB. Rather instead of folks running around and claiming that Orton only struggled last season because of the ankle injury, I think we need to put it in a context of what happen during any football season. There rarely a single point failure that can pointed to for any players that struggles on the field in NFL.

And yes I do have opinion about Orton, I find him to be an average QB that will be successful if his team is successful and everything doesn't break down. When things break down and they do alot in the NFL, he struggles and sometimes panics as seen in the TB/Chicago game last season.

The are issues that really concern me.

1. He has horrible footwork. McDaniels all ready stated that in beginning that he need to work on Orton footwork
2. His release is very slow. That showed on the first INT during the SF game when he had Hillis open in the flat, but didn't have the ball ready to go. His lack of arm strength only means that he needs to depends on this timing more then anything else.
3. He really needs to able to step into his throws, and that means a clean pocket, which rarely happens in the NFL. QB are forced to throw off their back-foot more then folks realize in the NFL.
4. He doesn't have the arm strength to throw outs to the opposite side of the field in the middle range (which is were the great ones excel). So McDaniels is going to have to scheme to ensure defense don't roll coverage to the near side forcing Orton in throws he just can not make.

Can he be successful yes, but it depends on getting his timing and release better then what it is today.

I don't know why you think I'm upset. Would you point out the particular
part of my posting that indicates to you I'm upset? I sincerely would like to
know.

Here are the issues that encourage me:

1. Orton had 12 picks in 15 games last year.

2. He has good arm strength. I have seen that personally in the 64 clips and
several games I have studied--not just watched, but studied. He was
recruited by Purdue in the first place because of his arm strength. The zip he
can put on a ball is obvious in many of the passes he throws. The splits (http://nationalpost.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7282&team=&page=splits) in his
passing game shows he can throw everywhere in the field.

3. He needs to improve his release and footwork, true, and those are features
that are coachable.

4. He quarterbacked the team to a winning record last year despite his need
to improve his release and footwork.

5. He quarterbacked the team to a winning record last year despite an inferior
WR corps and O-line, and inferior coaching.


Regarding your alternate reason, it was unreasonable. I pointed that out in
a previous post. To come back and just say it was reasonable without
countering what I pointed out is not good enough. If you can show me where
it is reasonable that all the teams the Bears played in December suddenly
suffered amnesia and forgot all about what Orton did well, then it may become
reasonable.

But it is amazing you would fall under the impression I'm upset. Are you upset?

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[Tned]

All we did was down grade arm strenth.



At minimum, we downgraded in arm strength and mobility. According to the stats that Dogfish has posted multiple times, Orton's INT/ATT are the same as Cutler, he just had a lower total INTs with far fewer pass attempts.

So, based on past facts, we don't know if we have improved in that area.

We have decreased in completion percentage and passer rating, which 'could' be do to the fact that Denver has more talented (yes, I know some think Marshall is a bum, but most won't agree) receivers and line, but again, we can't say for sure.

Clearly there is a MAJOR downgrade expected, or the trade between Denver and Chicago would have been close to an even trade, not Orton and two first round picks for Cutler.

[topscribe]

At minimum, we downgraded in arm strength and mobility. According to the stats that Dogfish has posted multiple times, Orton's INT/ATT are the same as Cutler, he just had a lower total INTs with far fewer pass attempts.

So, based on past facts, we don't know if we have improved in that area.

We have decreased in completion percentage and passer rating, which 'could' be do to the fact that Denver has more talented (yes, I know some think Marshall is a bum, but most won't agree) receivers and line, but again, we can't say for sure.

Clearly there is a MAJOR downgrade expected, or the trade between Denver and Chicago would have been close to an even trade, not Orton and two first round picks for Cutler.

And Brady will never be a good QB, else he would have been picked up where
Cutler was instead of in the 6th round.

Cutler has physical gifts superior to Brady's. Where Brady has Cutler beat is
between the ears (same with Manning). That is also where Orton has Cutler
beat, even though Cutler is more physically gifted than Orton.

I'm not saying that Orton is any better, or even as good, as Cutler at this
point. But I believe you made a good point when you said "we can't say for
sure."

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[elsid13]

I don't know why you think I'm upset. Would you point out the particular
part of my posting that indicates to you I'm upset? I sincerely would like to
know.

Here are the issues that encourage me:
Regarding your alternate reason, it was unreasonable. I pointed that out in
a previous post. To come back and just say it was reasonable without
countering what I pointed out is not good enough. If you can show me where
it is reasonable that all the teams the Bears played in December suddenly
suffered amnesia and forgot all about what Orton did well, then it may become
reasonable.

But it is amazing you would fall under the impression I'm upset. Are you upset?

-----

Lets try this, because it not zero sum game.

1. Chicago updates it playbook and add new plays and actions over the off season. Defenses need time to understand what they are doing and like all teams it takes about 6 week to get enough game tape to start a developing a game plan.
2. By the middle of the season, defense understand what Chicago is doing and start taking the key offense plays away. Thus Orton struggles.
3. Turner see how defense are attacking his game plan and passing game and starts the second part of this. Turner starts adjusting his plays and calls to attack what he seeing game film. Now his team has the advantage, Orton's number rebound.

That what coaches do. Make a plan, attempt to have the players execute the plan, and then readjust as opponents counter. All this going on week and week during the season. For every move some trying to counter it.

[Tned]

And Brady will never be a good QB, else he would have been picked up where
Cutler was instead of in the 6th round.

Cutler has physical gifts superior to Brady's. Where Brady has Cutler beat is
between the ears (same with Manning). That is also where Orton has Cutler
beat, even though Cutler is more physically gifted than Orton.

I'm not saying that Orton is any better, or even as good, as Cutler at this
point. But I believe you made a good point when you said "we can't say for
sure."

-----

Trying to compare a draft gem (Brady, like TD, like Rod Smith, etc.) to a QB that has been in the league, in and out of the starting lineup, for four years, doesn't cut it.

You can't use Brady being picked in the 6th as a means to say that Cutler for Orton + two firsts doesn't mean Orton is not as good as Cutler, because sometimes late round draft picks turn into starts. That's reaching.

[topscribe]

Trying to compare a draft gem (Brady, like TD, like Rod Smith, etc.) to a QB that has been in the league, in and out of the starting lineup, for four years, doesn't cut it.

You can't use Brady being picked in the 6th as a means to say that Cutler for Orton + two firsts doesn't mean Orton is not as good as Cutler, because sometimes late round draft picks turn into starts. That's reaching.

I guess you missed the point, which surprises me in your case. You're usually
pretty sharp in that respect.

Despite the fact I don't look up on Brady as a god, my point should be obvious,
but I will try to elaborate. They made a desperate mistake in evaluating Brady's
talent, else he would not have lasted until the 6th round. They have been
making such errors in talent ever since Bart Starr (9th round) and Johnny Unitas
(17th round). It is probably a safe assumption that they have not made their
last mistake.

So I am not going to reiterate the terms of the trade to assess where Orton
is in this point of his career. I'm going to look at Orton. Nothing else.

Orton is entering his third year on the field. So he essentially is a third-year
quarterback by experience. Moreover, his first two years were in the worst
of conditions with a subpar WR corps, O-line, running game, and coaching. He
is entering a situation where he has probably the best O-line and a receiving
corps (WRs and TEs), running game, and QB coaching among the best.

Orton is in a situation the likes we have never seen him. Therefore, we do not
have a clue as to how he will turn out, whether he will blow or be among the
best. My guess is somewhere in the upper middle, but that is only a guess.

But I certainly am not going to hesitate to compare any man against any
other man in a given characteristic. I am as tall as Brandon Marshall. Now,
what form of blasphemy did I commit? All I mentioned was Brady was
mistakenly drafted in the 6th round, so the possibility always exists they could
be mistaken with Orton. I can do that without genuflecting before Brady's
statue.

-----

[topscribe]

Lets try this, because it not zero sum game.

1. Chicago updates it playbook and add new plays and actions over the off season. Defenses need time to understand what they are doing and like all teams it takes about 6 week to get enough game tape to start a developing a game plan.
2. By the middle of the season, defense understand what Chicago is doing and start taking the key offense plays away. Thus Orton struggles.
3. Turner see how defense are attacking his game plan and passing game and starts the second part of this. Turner starts adjusting his plays and calls to attack what he seeing game film. Now his team has the advantage, Orton's number rebound.

That what coaches do. Make a plan, attempt to have the players execute the plan, and then readjust as opponents counter. All this going on week and week during the season. For every move some trying to counter it.

Very good. So you have detailed your speculation.

Did you catch that: "speculation"?

Now, I will repeat my original question: Have you studied Orton? I mean,
really studied him?

-----

[Lonestar]

Trying to compare a draft gem (Brady, like TD, like Rod Smith, etc.) to a QB that has been in the league, in and out of the starting lineup, for four years, doesn't cut it.

You can't use Brady being picked in the 6th as a means to say that Cutler for Orton + two firsts doesn't mean Orton is not as good as Cutler, because sometimes late round draft picks turn into starts. That's reaching.

I do not know of anyone that is saying it was an even swap.. just that Orton has just as much chance at running this offense as jay did..

considering he had a bigger arm and thought his way was the best way..

Orton knows he can;t force the ball with hopes the DB do not get it..

Orton knows he has to run the offense like Josh wants it done and that is reading the defenses and getting the ball to the open man..

I think we can all say that that was not one of jays strong points.. could he learn to probably did he want to likely why he is in Chicago..

yes you did make a good point about jay being more mobile, since I have not seen KO running much I will concede that for now..

did we have a downgrade in talent seems that way.

did we have an upgrade at smarts at QB that remains to be seen..


BTW I think marshall is a hell of a WR when he is on the field.. now if we can just keep him restrained until game day we just might have the perfect player.. because in the presence of ladies he seems to be a moron..

[Tned]

I guess you missed the point, which surprises me in your case. You're usually
pretty sharp in that respect.

Despite the fact I don't look up on Brady as a god, my point should be obvious,
but I will try to elaborate. They made a desperate mistake in evaluating Brady's
talent, else he would not have lasted until the 6th round. They have been
making such errors in talent ever since Bart Starr (9th round) and Johnny Unitas
(17th round). It is probably a safe assumption that they have not made their
last mistake.

So I am not going to reiterate the terms of the trade to assess where Orton
is in this point of his career. I'm going to look at Orton. Nothing else.

Orton is entering his third year on the field. So he essentially is a third-year
quarterback by experience. Moreover, his first two years were in the worst
of conditions with a subpar WR corps, O-line, running game, and coaching. He
is entering a situation where he has probably the best O-line and a receiving
corps (WRs and TEs), running game, and QB coaching among the best.

Orton is in a situation the likes we have never seen him. Therefore, we do not
have a clue as to how he will turn out, whether he will blow or be among the
best. My guess is somewhere in the upper middle, but that is only a guess.

But I certainly am not going to hesitate to compare any man against any
other man in a given characteristic. I am as tall as Brandon Marshall. Now,
what form of blasphemy did I commit? All I mentioned was Brady was
mistakenly drafted in the 6th round, so the possibility always exists they could
be mistaken with Orton. I can do that without genuflecting before Brady's
statue.

-----

I didn't miss your point, I just don't think it is a valid comparison.

While there have been cases of a player being in the league and performing in a sub-par manner for years, before finally blossoming, that is far different than mis-evaluating talent prior to the draft.

Using Brady as an example of how Brandster 'could' become a good, if not great, QB would be an apples to apples comparison.

Using mis-evaluation of talent at the draft, to a player that was drafted in 2005 and beat out several times by two other sub-par QB's, just is not a valid comparison.

As you have seen me post elsewhere, I am hopeful that Orton will flourish in McDaniel's system, but right now you have to admit that we are expecting McDaniels to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. That doesn't mean that Orton might not be turned into tasty, chicken salad, but McDaniels is starting with foul material and has a job ahead of him.

[Tned]

did we have a downgrade in talent seems that way.

did we have an upgrade at smarts at QB that remains to be seen..


Only time will tell, and nobody wants to see him succeed more than me. Others might want to see him succeed as much as I do, but nobody more.

However, I'm not going to fool myself into thinking he is an upgrade at QB. Nobody, except a handful of Broncos' fans think that.

Now, unlike some, I don't wish Cutler any ill will, other than I would like to see Chicago go 0-16 so we get the best draft pick possible. However, I would love to see a few years from now for people to look back and say that Orton has played so well in McDaniel's system, that Denver was the big winner in the trade. Odds are just against it happening.

[topscribe]

I didn't miss your point, I just don't think it is a valid comparison.

While there have been cases of a player being in the league and performing in a sub-par manner for years, before finally blossoming, that is far different than mis-evaluating talent prior to the draft.

Using Brady as an example of how Brandster 'could' become a good, if not great, QB would be an apples to apples comparison.

Using mis-evaluation of talent at the draft, to a player that was drafted in 2005 and beat out several times by two other sub-par QB's, just is not a valid comparison.

As you have seen me post elsewhere, I am hopeful that Orton will flourish in McDaniel's system, but right now you have to admit that we are expecting McDaniels to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. That doesn't mean that Orton might not be turned into tasty, chicken salad, but McDaniels is starting with foul material and has a job ahead of him.

Okay, to break it down into very simple terms, they have made mistakes in
evaluating talent before (of which I offered up Brady only as an example of
that), and so they can, and probably will, again.

Nonetheless, your analogy to Orton as "chicken shit" is your own opinion and
is categorically different to that of many. Orton didn't set the world on fire
last year, but to compare his performance last year--or even his rookie year--
to "chicken shit" is a monumental stretch, as stretches go. I firmly believe he
did a good job last year, considering what he had to work with and that he
played half the year on a high ankle sprain.

Ryan Leaf is "chicken shit." Orton might be more appropriately analogized to
mash (chicken feed) in need of some flavoring . . .

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[Lonestar]

Only time will tell, and nobody wants to see him succeed more than me. Others might want to see him succeed as much as I do, but nobody more.

However, I'm not going to fool myself into thinking he is an upgrade at QB. Nobody, except a handful of Broncos' fans think that.

Now, unlike some, I don't wish Cutler any ill will, other than I would like to see Chicago go 0-16 so we get the best draft pick possible. However, I would love to see a few years from now for people to look back and say that Orton has played so well in McDaniel's system, that Denver was the big winner in the trade. Odds are just against it happening.


I guess I'm wondering who is thinking he is an upgrade as I do not recall anyone saying he was..

most IIRC have just been defending him against the folks that think there is no other than jay..

I also hope he does poorly this year and we can get a top 8-12 pick as they seem to be some good players SO FAR..

I am also firm believer that jay will become another jeff george type a spectacular meteor and killing coaches as he flames out in each city..

I wish him well but see no long term future in his resume..

[Tned]

I guess I'm wondering who is thinking he is an upgrade as I do not recall anyone saying he was..

most IIRC have just been defending him against the folks that think there is no other than jay..

I also hope he does poorly this year and we can get a top 8-12 pick as they seem to be some good players SO FAR..

I am also firm believer that jay will become another jeff george type a spectacular meteor and killing coaches as he flames out in each city..

I wish him well but see no long term future in his resume..

I think it is far more likely Jay will be a perennial pro-bowler, but as always, only time will tell.

As to who is calling him an upgrade, the 'touting' of Orton, and attempted tearing down of Cutler, appears to indicate people think Orton is equal or better at the QB position.

[Tned]

Okay, to break it down into very simple terms, they have made mistakes in
evaluating talent before (of which I offered up Brady only as an example of
that), and so they can, and probably will, again.

Nonetheless, your analogy to Orton as "chicken shit" is your own opinion and
is categorically different to that of many. Orton didn't set the world on fire
last year, but to compare his performance last year--or even his rookie year--
to "chicken shit" is a monumental stretch, as stretches go. I firmly believe he
did a good job last year, considering what he had to work with and that he
played half the year on a high ankle sprain.

Ryan Leaf is "chicken shit." Orton might be more appropriately analogized to
mash (chicken feed) in need of some flavoring . . .

-----

I was attempting to show the other extreme to the Brady analogy, when talking about Orton.

Right now, he is considered a low tier QB. He is considered a 'smart' QB, with limited physical skills. While he has a winning record (at least somewhat due to the defense, but I hope also because of him), his passer rating, completion percentage and INT/ATT ratios have been questionable at best, especially in a run first offense.

Now, I hope that those poor stats are because he was a non-mobile QB playing behind a porous line, without limited receiving talent around him. However, at this point we just don't know. He might have had horrible completion percentage and other stats because he simply isn't good. I hope it's the former.

[topscribe]

I think it is far more likely Jay will be a perennial pro-bowler, but as always, only time will tell.

As to who is calling him an upgrade, the 'touting' of Orton, and attempted tearing down of Cutler, appears to indicate people think Orton is equal or better at the QB position.

There can be absolutely no doubt, T, that Cutler is significantly superior to
Orton in just about every respect . . . physically. The question is, does he
have it above the shoulders?

My guess is that Cutler will probably grow up and become what they expect of
him . . . if he can do it now that he does not have superior coaching.

Orton does have it mentally, IMO. He gets it, I believe, which is possibly why
McDaniels likes him. And despite that he does not have the tools Cutler does,
he still has tools. How he will use them is anybody's guess, as I have opined,
but he is now in the best of circumstances to do it.

-----

[topscribe]

I was attempting to show the other extreme to the Brady analogy, when talking about Orton.

Right now, he is considered a low tier QB. He is considered a 'smart' QB, with limited physical skills. While he has a winning record (at least somewhat due to the defense, but I hope also because of him), his passer rating, completion percentage and INT/ATT ratios have been questionable at best, especially in a run first offense.

Now, I hope that those poor stats are because he was a non-mobile QB playing behind a porous line, without limited receiving talent around him. However, at this point we just don't know. He might have had horrible completion percentage and other stats because he simply isn't good. I hope it's the former.

Okay, Orton threw INTs in 2.58% of his attempts. Since he is being compared
so much to Cutler, I will add that Cutler threw INTs in 2.92% of his attempts.
So Orton had a better ratio in that respect in an inferior offensive system in
all respects. If you take Orton's first seven games, during which he was
healthy, Orton threw INTs in 1.7% of his attempts.

Over the months of September and October, before he suffered his high ankle
sprain, Orton's passer rating was 91.4. In October by itself, his passer rating
was 106.2 . . . and he had no INTs during all of October.

You mentioned that was a run-first offense, which actually had to make it
harder on Orton since the YPC of their running was 3.9, which ranked them at
#27 in the league (by comparison, Denver's was 4.8, or #3). So they didn't
do Orton any favors when they ran.

Regarding mobility, again, he is not as mobile as Cutler, but he is more mobile
that he's given credit for. I've seen it myself.

-----

[Tned]

As I said, I am pulling for Orton, so I have no desire to dig up information/stats to prove he is anything other than our starting QB that will lead us to a division title this season.

[topscribe]

As I said, I am pulling for Orton, so I have no desire to dig up information/stats to prove he is anything other than our starting QB that will lead us to a division title this season.

I enjoyed the discussion, T.

Now, I've got to get back to work. :(

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