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Texanmike02
09-22-2012, 02:31 AM
If you watch him closely, you can’t help but see that Peyton Manning is having difficulties with his throws. There are specific patterns that I have noticed watching and reviewing his play since the preseason. His passes to the right half of the field are, for the most part, weak and/or inaccurate. These observations have been consistent and predictable. Why predictable? If you followed my posts last year, you will remember that I explained that C7, the nerve involved in the disc problem that led to his surgeries, innervates the triceps muscle. This is the muscle which accounts for the extension of his elbow in the throwing motion. But what other muscle is innervated by C7?..........The major portion of the pectoralis major muscle. Why is this important? The pectoralis major muscle is one of the strongest muscles in the body. And it gives POWER to the throwing motion.

Go through the motion of pretending that you are throwing a football straight forward, while feeling your pectoralis. You will feel it contract as it strongly assists the upper arm moving forward and inward towards the chest. When you then throw across your chest to the left you will be able to obtain maximum force to the throw in that you receive maximum contribution from the pectoralis. When a throw is made to the right, the pectoralis contributes little to the power of the throw.

If you watched Manning last game, it was painfully obvious that any successful passes to the right were short and low. And in some of those, in order to compensate, he turned his whole body to his target so that it would be more equivalent to a straight ahead throw (using the assist of the pectoralis). All three of his interceptions came when he attempted intermediate passes to the right side of the field while facing the middle of the field. Those passes and others floated and/or were inaccurate. Remember, accuracy especially with longer passes require adequate power. Power or the lack thereof affects accuracy. The less power behind your throw, the less likely a longer throw will be delivered accurately and the more likely you will lose form and inappropriately overuse the core muscles in desperate attempt for additional forward power. This last game, Peyton’s greatest success was with throws across his body to the left side of the field as in the case of his sole TD pass.

[As an aside, C7 also innervates the latissimus dorsi muscle which can to a much lesser degree contribute to a forward pass.]

Keeping all of this in mind, a defense strategy that could serve Wade well would be to place maximum pass rush pressure to Peytons right and force him to the left of his back field. This way it would significantly lessen his chances of going to the right side with his passes and encourage him to focus mostly on the left side of the field. At the same time, Wade could concentrate his secondary’s attention to the left awaiting those passes. If Peyton chooses to still throw from his exaggerated left backfield position to the right side of the field, his throws would be that much weaker and more inaccurate, making them less likely to be completed and ripe for the pick. Forcing Peyton to pass to his right could be the Texans' path this Sunday to driving him to his Waterloo.

I saw this on Texanstalk and was curious if you guys have noticed this (or if anyone wants to go back and look at it). The guy who wrote it is an orthopedic surgeon in the Houston area and is remarkably accurate in his assessments of various people's injuries (including Andre Johnson, Foster, Domanik Davis/Williams all the way back to Tony Bosselli). I'm not trying to talk smack just thought it was something you guys might want to watch for. I don't have any of the Broncos games recorded and wasn't watching for this trend before now.

He does go on (later in the thread) to say that it is expected that by the end of the year Manning will have all of the strength back in his arm that he's going to get. Basically that 2 years removed from the surgery that he will have experienced as much regeneration as you will see.

Thoughts? (flame away if you must)

Mike

OrangeHoof
09-22-2012, 09:41 AM
The three picks all looked similar to me - late over the middle throws somewhat to his right and they all seemed to hang in the air a bit longer than expected like Peyton's brain expected the ball to arrive sooner than Peyton's arm could produce. I'm not a nerve or muscle specialist and don't pretend to be but it did seem to me as if Manning's INTs went to places where he expected the ball to reach the receiver before the DB could get to them only to see the DB arrive in time and pick off the pass.

Another factor, of course, is how well those nerves and muscles respond to a hard hit or two. Officially, we'll hear that everything is fine but if Manning gets a good shot to the back or arm, it could take even more zip off his fastball.

Northman
09-22-2012, 09:46 AM
For me, the problems in the last game had to do with some very poor reads by Manning. While his throws arent pretty i dont think that is the brunt of his problem.

SR
09-22-2012, 10:12 AM
For me, the problems in the last game had to do with some very poor reads by Manning. While his throws arent pretty i dont think that is the brunt of his problem.

This. And as to the OP, it's no secret that his nerve damage and ensuing surgeries effected his arm strength. He's still Peyton Manning though. He'll be back to his normal Peyton Manning self before long.

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gregbroncs
09-22-2012, 10:23 AM
I am of the opinion that Manning's troubles are in adapting to a new scheme and time away from the game. I have seen him throw some great passes with zip on them. I would point to Alex Smith as to the importance for a QB to know and feel comfortable in an offensive system. Alex has never had a 2nd season in the same system until now. This season so far he is tearing it up for SF. Manning will be fine. If you really think we'll win the SB this year you will probably be dissappointed. I'm looking for next year and the year after when I believe we'll be real title contenders. And a lot of that will be because Manning will feel more comfortable in the offense.

All that said I'm not a nerve specialist. But if this was the case why did this article come out after his 1st bad game and not before? Or even in the off season? Or after his 1st game in which he performed excellent?

SR
09-22-2012, 10:27 AM
I am of the opinion that Manning's troubles are in adapting to a new scheme and time away from the game. I have seen him throw some great passes with zip on them. I would point to Alex Smith as to the importance for a QB to know and feel comfortable in an offensive system. Alex has never had a 2nd season in the same system until now. This season so far he is tearing it up for SF. Manning will be fine. If you really think we'll win the SB this year you will probably be dissappointed. I'm looking for next year and the year after when I believe we'll be real title contenders. And a lot of that will be because Manning will feel more comfortable in the offense.

All that said I'm not a nerve specialist. But if this was the case why did this article come out after his 1st bad game and not before? Or even in the off season? Or after his 1st game in which he performed excellent?

Well put

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catfish
09-22-2012, 10:32 AM
I am of the opinion that Manning's troubles are in adapting to a new scheme and time away from the game. I have seen him throw some great passes with zip on them. I would point to Alex Smith as to the importance for a QB to know and feel comfortable in an offensive system. Alex has never had a 2nd season in the same system until now. This season so far he is tearing it up for SF. Manning will be fine. If you really think we'll win the SB this year you will probably be dissappointed. I'm looking for next year and the year after when I believe we'll be real title contenders. And a lot of that will be because Manning will feel more comfortable in the offense.

All that said I'm not a nerve specialist. But if this was the case why did this article come out after his 1st bad game and not before? Or even in the off season? Or after his 1st game in which he performed excellent?

nothing was said after week 1 because 1, they won and 2 Manning attempted only a single pass over 20 yards in the air in week 1, so there really wasn't much to look at

gregbroncs
09-22-2012, 03:14 PM
nothing was said after week 1 because 1, they won and 2 Manning attempted only a single pass over 20 yards in the air in week 1, so there really wasn't much to look atThe article stated that it was predictable. Yet he did not predict it. He made his comment after a single bad quarter. If it was so predictable he should have been able to predict it before not after. The circumstances around the article are highly suspect. And any credibility it has was lost on me with him stating that it was predictable.

Ravage!!!
09-22-2012, 03:18 PM
nothing was said after week 1 because 1, they won and 2 Manning attempted only a single pass over 20 yards in the air in week 1, so there really wasn't much to look at

You honestly looking at those passes and think he's trying to fire a bullet, or that he can't throw the ball 20 yrds? Seriously? I mean, its pretty absurd.

I also find it funny when people point out passes down the right hashmark as being "throws to the right"... as if his shoulders and feet are any different from this throw than they are anywhere else on the field.

Army Bronco
09-22-2012, 03:29 PM
nothing was said after week 1 because 1, they won and 2 Manning attempted only a single pass over 20 yards in the air in week 1, so there really wasn't much to look at

You honestly looking at those passes and think he's trying to fire a bullet, or that he can't throw the ball 20 yrds? Seriously? I mean, its pretty absurd.

I also find it funny when people point out passes down the right hashmark as being "throws to the right"... as if his shoulders and feet are any different from this throw than they are anywhere else on the field. They are trying to find anything to write about. Heres another potential story.... " i noticed manning was slow breaking the huddle. I think his clapping is getting weaker and the players dont hear him say break"

OrangeHoof
09-22-2012, 03:45 PM
Well, okay. Here's another potential story... How are the Broncos going to stop Connor Barwin, Brooks Reed, J.J. Watt and Antonio Smith with the OL the Broncos have in front of Manning? Last year the same cast was third in the AFC in sacks despite learning a new defense.

Ravage!!!
09-22-2012, 03:48 PM
Well, okay. Here's another potential story... How are the Broncos going to stop Connor Barwin, Brooks Reed, J.J. Watt and Antonio Smith with the OL the Broncos have in front of Manning? Last year the same cast was third in the AFC in sacks despite learning a new defense.

Same way they blocked PItt and Atlanta

Army Bronco
09-22-2012, 03:51 PM
Well, okay. Here's another potential story... How are the Broncos going to stop Connor Barwin, Brooks Reed, J.J. Watt and Antonio Smith with the OL the Broncos have in front of Manning? Last year the same cast was third in the AFC in sacks despite learning a new defense. If they cant break out of the huddle properly they cant block the Texans defense.

Ravage!!!
09-22-2012, 04:18 PM
If they cant break out of the huddle properly they cant block the Texans defense.

That was a great observation you made. I'm going to zoom in and keep an eye on this huddle breaking thing you caught onto.

Man, I'm nervous for the game. I can't BELIEVE Manning's not breaking out the of the huddle at the same speed. I hope that he continues to squeeze those springy things so that his grip and clapping improves. Otherwise, this could get ugly.

Superchop 7
09-22-2012, 06:20 PM
I hate idiots from Texas......look.....Manning is not different from any other QB.....set your foot and square the shoulders.....as far as his nerve......6000mg of Inosine shot into C7 does the trick.

Hawgdriver
09-22-2012, 06:41 PM
I just reviewed the second interception in the Falcons game. Peyton was throwing directly forward, that is, directly in front of his throwing axis. The play began at the left hash mark, the pass was intercepted between the hash marks. Peyton's footwork took him slightly off the axis of the field, so he was facing the back right corner of the endzone or thereabouts.

The pass had routine NFL zip.

That was clearly a mental error.

Your points may be valid, but I do not in my heart think they are correct.

SR
09-22-2012, 07:17 PM
I just reviewed the second interception in the Falcons game. Peyton was throwing directly forward, that is, directly in front of his throwing axis. The play began at the left hash mark, the pass was intercepted between the hash marks. Peyton's footwork took him slightly off the axis of the field, so he was facing the back right corner of the endzone or thereabouts.

The pass had routine NFL zip.

That was clearly a mental error.

Your points may be valid, but I do not in my heart think they are correct.

Kurt Warner just said on NFL Total Access that his interceptions were mental errors.

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Hawgdriver
09-22-2012, 08:55 PM
Kurt Warner just said on NFL Total Access that his interceptions were mental errors.

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Werd.

Simple Jaded
09-22-2012, 11:31 PM
Kurt Warner just said on NFL Total Access that his interceptions were mental errors.

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Warner was a huge skeptic throughout the preseason and has since said he's seen what he wanted to see from Manning. He never had a huge arm and he never threw the prettiest pass, it's almost as if people have never seen the dude play. If/when Manning ever gets 100% people are gonna disappointed if they think it's gonna be significantly better than it is now.......

Jsteve01
09-23-2012, 08:11 AM
Kurt Warner just said on NFL Total Access that his interceptions were mental errors.

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Warner was a huge skeptic throughout the preseason and has since said he's seen what he wanted to see from Manning. He never had a huge arm and he never threw the prettiest pass, it's almost as if people have never seen the dude play. If/when Manning ever gets 100% people are gonna disappointed if they think it's gonna be significantly better than it is now....... what. You mean he's not going to have an arm like elway in his prime? Heresy

EastCoastBronco
09-23-2012, 09:07 AM
I'm of the strong opinion that if we hadn't come out of the gate trying to shoot the lights out with Peyton's "questionable" arm and instead focused on establishing some semblance of a running game with Mr. McGahee and his "non-questionable" legs, we wouldn't be discussing any of this because we would have won the game by at least a touchdown...

Simple Jaded
09-23-2012, 02:26 PM
what. You mean he's not going to have an arm like elway in his prime? Heresy

Erroneous.......

catfish
09-23-2012, 07:26 PM
You honestly looking at those passes and think he's trying to fire a bullet, or that he can't throw the ball 20 yrds? Seriously? I mean, its pretty absurd.

I also find it funny when people point out passes down the right hashmark as being "throws to the right"... as if his shoulders and feet are any different from this throw than they are anywhere else on the field.

He asked why noone questioned arm strength after the first game, there were no long passes hence why would arm strength be questioned.In the 2nd game he struggled with the long passes, even if strength was not the factor people are going to question his strength until he proves he can throw the long ball with consistency, I don't think that statement is that out there.

watching the highlights he had some zip on his longer passes today so I expect the furor will die down until/unless he has another game where he struggles.

Simple Jaded
09-23-2012, 08:00 PM
He asked why noone questioned arm strength after the first game, there were no long passes hence why would arm strength be questioned.In the 2nd game he struggled with the long passes, even if strength was not the factor people are going to question his strength until he proves he can throw the long ball with consistency, I don't think that statement is that out there.

watching the highlights he had some zip on his longer passes today so I expect the furor will die down until/unless he has another game where he struggles. I doubt the noise ever dies down regardless of how Manning performs.......

catfish
09-23-2012, 08:10 PM
I doubt the noise ever dies down regardless of how Manning performs.......

you are probably right, it will die down for a time when he is putting up decent #'s, but if his numbers dip or he has multiple INT's again people will crawl out of the woodwork to point out that his arm is shot like they are experts. I bet $$ to donuts that this week it will be "Peyton still has velocity, but his accuracy is suffering due to his health"

unfortunately he is under the same microscope that Tebow was under last year, and while he is 10X better equipped to survive that kind of scrutiny I don't know that any QB will flourish with a group of people ready to pounce every time you have a down game. I actually feel really bad for the guy

TimHippo
09-23-2012, 08:17 PM
He's lost velocity on his fast ball and his release is alot slower then pre injury. That's what is causing all the problems, hurries, sacks, and bad decisions.

SR
09-23-2012, 08:28 PM
He's lost velocity on his fast ball and his release is alot slower then pre injury. That's what is causing all the problems, hurries, sacks, and bad decisions.

Sweet creepy avatar pic

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catfish
09-23-2012, 08:30 PM
He's lost velocity on his fast ball and his release is alot slower then pre injury. That's what is causing all the problems, hurries, sacks, and bad decisions.

I don't know the TD pass to stokely looked like it was on a rope and right on target. I am not sure what the overall problem with the offense is in the 1st three quarters , but the problems seem to dissapear in the 4th quarter

SR
09-23-2012, 08:32 PM
I don't know the TD pass to stokely looked like it was on a rope and right on target. I am not sure what the overall problem with the offense is in the 1st three quarters , but the problems seem to dissapear in the 4th quarter

And the two deep balls to Thomas looked good. Overthrown, but good balls

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catfish
09-23-2012, 08:34 PM
And the two deep balls to Thomas looked good. Overthrown, but good balls

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I was at the in-laws and couldn't catch the game, only saw the highlights, but I will take your word for it :). Like I said I don't know why the offense can't seem to get going in the first 3 quarters, and then all the sudden lights up the 4th quarter, but if it was a health issues I wouldn't think the 4th quarter fireworks would be happening

TimHippo
09-23-2012, 08:35 PM
I am not sure what the overall problem with the offense is in the 1st three quarters , but the problems seem to dissapear in the 4th quarter

Deja Vu from last year.

catfish
09-23-2012, 08:37 PM
Deja Vu from last year.

it is kinda validating some of the gripes about playcalling from last year, but I don't really want to walk down that path as it is spilt milk

Texanmike02
09-23-2012, 08:44 PM
I watched Manning today (and the game is over, this is definitely NOT smack) and I think he seems to be compensating. If you watch, he is putting zip on the ball but it looks like he is compensating. Look at the Stokely TD. He follows that through like a pitcher. Legs all over the place and turning his body to make the throw. For comparison watch this video highlights from his time in Indy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmA7pbOIbl8) He was throwing rockets flat footed. I wouldn't say that he is done, or that he can't be successful but he will certainly have to learn how to adjust his game. If you are able to keep him upright and give him a pocket to throw in you should be ok but his windup and deliver is a little longer than it has been in the past. The other question I have about him is will that cause durability issues? If he compensates like that all year is he going to wind up hurting his back?

Anyway, good luck for the rest of the year. I think it is clear that you guys are a powerhouse and a force to be reckoned with in the AFC. You have played 2 of the top 10 teams in the league and been in both of them. You are almost a lock for your division in my opinion and who knows, maybe we will be fighting it out for home field advantage in the playoffs. I'd love for y'all to come to Houston.

Mike

SR
09-23-2012, 08:54 PM
I watched Manning today (and the game is over, this is definitely NOT smack) and I think he seems to be compensating. If you watch, he is putting zip on the ball but it looks like he is compensating. Look at the Stokely TD. He follows that through like a pitcher. Legs all over the place and turning his body to make the throw. For comparison watch this video highlights from his time in Indy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmA7pbOIbl8) He was throwing rockets flat footed. I wouldn't say that he is done, or that he can't be successful but he will certainly have to learn how to adjust his game. If you are able to keep him upright and give him a pocket to throw in you should be ok but his windup and deliver is a little longer than it has been in the past. The other question I have about him is will that cause durability issues? If he compensates like that all year is he going to wind up hurting his back?

Anyway, good luck for the rest of the year. I think it is clear that you guys are a powerhouse and a force to be reckoned with in the AFC. You have played 2 of the top 10 teams in the league and been in both of them. You are almost a lock for your division in my opinion and who knows, maybe we will be fighting it out for home field advantage in the playoffs. I'd love for y'all to come to Houston.

Mike

Thanks for being classy

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Texanmike02
09-23-2012, 09:00 PM
Thanks for being classy

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Thanks to y'all too. I usually try to visit opposing MB's before the game, not to talk trash, just to talk football. Its good to get good discussion in. Only place I really have a problem is the Inbr... er Titans but this was fun. We'll do it again in January for sure.

I went and looked at a few other throws. Look at the Dressen td. Same thing. He is winding up. It was not typical Manning. I think he's smart enough to compensate and to be honest, if you guys get above average production instead of elite production, I think you are still among the favorites in the AFC.

Mike