NFL Sends Conduct Warning to Entire League

[camdisco24]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8404563/nfl-issues-field-conduct-warning-owners-general-managers-coaches-all-32-teams


The NFL reached out to the owners, general managers and coaches of all 32 teams this week to advise them that the type of on-field behavior it witnessed last weekend will not be acceptable this weekend.

Coaches including coach John Fox and defensive coordinator Jack Del Rio of the Denver Broncos, along with San Francisco 49ers coach Jim Harbaugh, were spotted berating officials in a way unacceptable to the league office.

Interesting... Whats your opinion on coaches yelling a refs in a situation like we're in now?

Should coaches remain silent when a blatantly bad call is made?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

The regular refs got yelled at all of the time. I don't ever remember a memo being put out to every team in the league to cool it. This is just a coverup by the NFL. They know the product on the field is terrible, and they don't want owners/coaches/players endorsing that same feeling. Here is what I do not understand - it is the OWNERS who pay the refs salaries. I would imagine all of the owners are upset. Why can't the owners tell whoever is negotiating to give the refs what they want?????? Or, is it a situation where the owners pay, but the NFL runs the show???????

[topscribe]

Of course, it doesn't occur to the NFL just WHY all that happened, does it?

They're concerned about the conduct of coaches and players, but dead silent on the absolute incompetence of the officials.

But then, as Steve Young so eloquently stated, THEY (THE NFL) DON'T CARE!
.

[Army Bronco]

The NFL is locking out the cheerleaders next year Im afraid of what the replacements will be.

[SR]

The NFL is locking out the cheerleaders next year Im afraid of what the replacements will be.

Go to Walmart in Sierra Vista. Question answered.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[topscribe]

Go to Walmart in Sierra Vista. Question answered.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner
Is Maxine a Greeter there now?
.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

from article:


"We contacted them to remind them that everyone has a responsibility to respect the game," NFL executive vice president Ray Anderson said Thursday night. "We expect it to be adhered to this weekend and forevermore."

I love it - do the NFL executives feel, by putting replacement refs out on the field, they are respecting the game - WHAT A JOKE - it's do as I say - not as I do.:tsk:

[Timmy!]

I hope a coach or two completely loses it (no Broncos please) this weekend because of a horrible call and just goes batshit crazy on television...that would maybe help?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I hope a coach or two completely loses it (no Broncos please) this weekend because of a horrible call and just goes batshit crazy on television...that would maybe help?

Fox did a pretty good job of that Monday night - lol. In the video on the link, Schefter mentioned both Fox and DelRio.

[camdisco24]

Fox did a pretty good job of that Monday night - lol. In the video on the link, Schefter mentioned both Fox and DelRio.

All week they have used clips of Fox and Del Rio yelling at the refs when they discuss the topic. John Fox will give refs an earful, but I have NEVER seen him react quite like he did on Monday night. (I live in NC, so I have seen a lot of Panthers games)

When John Fox is THAT angry, you have seriously screwed up. Personally, I am glad both our HC and DC are passionate enough to fight for the right call like that. Is it worth getting thrown out? No. But I don't think coaches should just laugh off bad calls. One loss in this league could spell your fate come playoff time. NFL can't expect coaches to just roll with (in?) the BS.

[Timmy!]

Fox did a pretty good job of that Monday night - lol. In the video on the link, Schefter mentioned both Fox and DelRio.

Sorta. I want a full bobby knight breakdown....objects flying through the air, women and children running for cover, networks apologizing for what juat happened, etc.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

All week they have used clips of Fox and Del Rio yelling at the refs when they discuss the topic. John Fox will give refs an earful, but I have NEVER seen him react quite like he did on Monday night. (I live in NC, so I have seen a lot of Panthers games)

When John Fox is THAT angry, you have seriously screwed up. Personally, I am glad both our HC and DC are passionate enough to fight for the right call like that. Is it worth getting thrown out? No. But I don't think coaches should just laugh off bad calls. One loss in this league could spell your fate come playoff time. NFL can't expect coaches to just roll with (in?) the BS.

My youngest son called late afternoon today, and was talking about this memo, and he said the Broncos' game Sunday with Houston, as early as it is, could have an affect on the playoffs.

[sneakers]

There is a difference between arguing the call, and abusing the officials.

I think everyone would agree the replacement officials are doing the best they can.

And some of the way the coaches and players have been treating them is a little over the line.

[SR]

There is a difference between arguing the call, and abusing the officials.

I think everyone would agree the replacement officials are doing the best they can.

And some of the way the coaches and players have been treating them is a little over the line.

This. It's one thing to argue and plead your case but it's another thing to be abusive. The NFL reached out to these refs and I get it that it's their job to protect them but you can only polish a turd all you want and in the end it's still a piece of shit.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[camdisco24]

I agree that coaches should NOT abuse the refs. But if you're a ref and you botch a call, you better fully expect to get an earful. It's part of the game.

I feel like this memo from the NFL sends the wrong message on a bunch of points.

[SR]

I agree that coaches should NOT abuse the refs. But if you're a ref and you botch a call, you better fully expect to get an earful. It's part of the game.

I feel like this memo from the NFL sends the wrong message on a bunch of points.

I agree completely. It's a Catch 22

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[Denver Native (Carol)]

The last time I checked, coaches WANT to win football games. I think it is totally impossible to watch blown call after blown call and expect a coach to walk away whistling dixie

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I agree that coaches should NOT abuse the refs. But if you're a ref and you botch a call, you better fully expect to get an earful. It's part of the game.

I feel like this memo from the NFL sends the wrong message on a bunch of points.

The NFL would never have sent this memo if it was the real referees getting yelled at They are only protecting the choice they made - making it look like they are protecting the replacement refs.

[camdisco24]

The NFL would never have sent this memo if it was the real referees getting yelled at They are only protecting the choice they made - making it look like they are protecting the replacement refs.

Exactly... They would take up an issue like this with the specific coaches involved. This memo is just the NFL flexing their ego.

[MNPatsFan]

from article:



I love it - do the NFL executives feel, by putting replacement refs out on the field, they are respecting the game - WHAT A JOKE - it's do as I say - not as I do.:tsk:Carol, what do you want the NFL to do? Cancel part of the season because they can't come to terms with the officials' union? Just capitulate to the union's unreasonable demands and pay the PART-TIME officials the exorbitant salaries and benefits they are demanding???

PS I would love to have a PART-TIME job that paid me the 6 figure salary plus great benefits that the NFL officials receive and will almost definitely still receive if or when they reach agreement with the NFL.

[MNPatsFan]

The NFL would never have sent this memo if it was the real referees getting yelled at They are only protecting the choice they made - making it look like they are protecting the replacement refs.I disagree. The NFL has historically and consistently sent memos out to ALL the teams. The NFL did the same thing regarding various issues, including, but not limited to, videotaping opponents (spygate) and bounties (bountygate). Moreover, the NFL has consistently fined players and coaches for this type of action in the past

[camdisco24]

I disagree. The NFL has historically and consistently sent memos out to ALL the teams. The NFL did the same thing regarding various issues, including, but not limited to, videotaping opponents (spygate) and bounties (bountygate). Moreover, the NFL has consistently fined players and coaches for this type of action in the past

You're right about about the NFL sending out memos to all teams for more serious situations. You're also right that they would fine/warn specific coaches about ref conduct. BUT, I can't recall them EVER sending out a memo like this to the entire league. It just seems like they are trying to prove a point rather than solve a problem.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Carol, what do you want the NFL to do? Cancel part of the season because they can't come to terms with the officials' union? Just capitulate to the union's unreasonable demands and pay the PART-TIME officials the exorbitant salaries and benefits they are demanding???

PS I would love to have a PART-TIME job that paid me the 6 figure salary plus great benefits that the NFL officials receive and will almost definitely still receive if or when they reach agreement with the NFL.

I do not feel that the referees demands are unreasonable. As Steve Young said - Goodell is trying to break the union. The referees would still love to have their part-time job, which Goodell now wants them to be full time, plus he wants to take away their benefits i.e. - pension plan, and convert it over to 40lk(s).

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I disagree. The NFL has historically and consistently sent memos out to ALL the teams. The NFL did the same thing regarding various issues, including, but not limited to, videotaping opponents (spygate) and bounties (bountygate). Moreover, the NFL has consistently fined players and coaches for this type of action in the past

I know that the NFL has sent out memos before - I was referring to this situation only in regards to sending out the memo.

[topscribe]

Carol, what do you want the NFL to do? Cancel part of the season because they can't come to terms with the officials' union? Just capitulate to the union's unreasonable demands and pay the PART-TIME officials the exorbitant salaries and benefits they are demanding???

PS I would love to have a PART-TIME job that paid me the 6 figure salary plus great benefits that the NFL officials receive and will almost definitely still receive if or when they reach agreement with the NFL.
I can't speak for Carol, but I would like for them to PAY the refs the piddling
little sum (compared to the millions that flow throughout the league) and get
a product on the field that SHOWS they respect the league. A football game
is supposed to be an event where one set of players defeats the other set of
players, not where officials become such a factor in deciding a game . . .
.

[OrangeHoof]

I hope a coach or two completely loses it (no Broncos please) this weekend because of a horrible call and just goes batshit crazy on television...that would maybe help?

I thought Fox might pull the Broncos off the field on Monday. He would have caught hell from the league office if he did that, particularly on a prime time game on national television, but it's one of the few things anyone can do that is going to end the impasse quickly.

The whole thing is that the NFL wants to keep the complaining about the refs from snowballing into a major crisis. The players and coaches are, technically, NFL employees and the league has the right to fine them if they don't tone down the rhetoric.

[SR]

I thought Fox might pull the Broncos off the field on Monday.

My dad said the exact same thing.

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[jhildebrand]

The NFL is attempting to control the dialogue and find any kind of leverage they can. It just isn't working. It seemed apparent after week 1 that the talking heads on ESPN had a muzzle on thanks to what was probably a league memo.

Steve Young fought that as long as he could before he unleashed. The league knows they can't control the analysts when the debacle is as bad as it has been so they are controlling what they can-players and coaches. This wont work either. The players via D Smith made it known that they could walk out to support the refs. If week 3 shakes out as bad as week 2, then they should! Everybody deserves a better product!

[jhildebrand]

By the way, since ERISA, most plans went from Direct Benefit to Direct Contribution. I don't side with the refs that they should have a direct benefit plan. Not for 20 weeks per year service.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

By the way, since ERISA, most plans went from Direct Benefit to Direct Contribution. I don't side with the refs that they should have a direct benefit plan. Not for 20 weeks per year service.

I don't agree with taking something away from them that they have had from the beginning. The refs proposed that all new refs would not get the pension, but rather 401k(s).

[jhildebrand]

I don't agree with taking something away from them that they have had from the beginning. The refs proposed that all new refs would not get the pension, but rather 401k(s).

I haven't looked too closely at the refs demands but i did see the DC/DB was a major sticking point. If what you say is true, new refs would be in 401k plan then Goodell is dumb for not juming at that.

As for the refs, this is a long long haul they are in for. Just look at the Alumni battle and the NFL not taking care of them. As a fan the games on sunday and MNF were unbearable. One more week of that and the league will most certainly lose some ground/fans.

[Army Bronco]

The NFL is locking out the cheerleaders next year Im afraid of what the replacements will be.

Go to Walmart in Sierra Vista. Question answered.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner Lol I was there the night before last. You know that its a super walmart now?...Right in front of an olive garden. Yes SV is moving on up.

[Army Bronco]

So what happens to the refs or team of refs who make consistent bad calls like those that were hired to officiate the Broncos falcons game? Is there any fine or suspension?

[Chef Zambini]

what tyhe NFL realy fears is the games and actions of the plaYERS GETTING OUT OF CONTROL (FIGHTS0 B because the players do not respect the refs. their authority.
then the NFL will face the liability of a brawl because their refs FAILED to control the situation !never mind the CALLS, when the refs dont know the RULES there is a problem and the coaches have every right to undress a group of referees that award the qwrong yardage ona penalty or fail to locate the proper placement of the ball or neglect their first rule of officiating, ball security/ posession.
the NFL hoped for improvement from week one, instead the replacements regresses and demonstrated why they do not belong on the field!
'respect the game' ?
shame on you roger for your hypocricy!
YOU show respect for the game and get qualified officials to manage them !
shaME ON YOU ! send yourself a memo !

[Chef Zambini]

So what happens to the refs or team of refs who make consistent bad calls like those that were hired to officiate the Broncos falcons game? Is there any fine or suspension?no the penalty is they are scheduled for the next raiders home game.

[Chef Zambini]

the refs in the NBA have made those games unbearable to me!
I hope it does not come to that for the NFL !

[MNPatsFan]

I don't agree with taking something away from them that they have had from the beginning. The refs proposed that all new refs would not get the pension, but rather 401k(s).You/the NFL is not taking something away because under ERISA the NFL is REQUIRED to "compensate" the refs by giving the officials additional benefits. I can't remember the exact forms of "compensation" but believe the "employer" or "company" must among other things either increase the percentage or amount of contributions and/or the types of benefits provided. As a result, the officials aren't really losing anything, their retirement plan is merely being converted into a different plan with additional compensation and/or benefits provided to permit the conversion. under ERISA

[MNPatsFan]

I can't speak for Carol, but I would like for them to PAY the refs the piddling
little sum (compared to the millions that flow throughout the league) and get
a product on the field that SHOWS they respect the league. A football game
is supposed to be an event where one set of players defeats the other set of
players, not where officials become such a factor in deciding a game . . .
.Well IMHO it isn't a piddling amount. I would gladly work for that piddling amount (a 6 figure salary) for PART-TIME work on weekends ONLY during about half the year or less. I would hazard a guess that there are MANY people who would work FULL-TIME for that alleged piddling amount consisting of a SIX figure salary.

I don't like how the officials have been doing but I don't feel like the NFL must automatically give into the officials unreasonable demands.

BTW, it isn't like the regular officials haven't become such factors in games. Just maybe not on the same level. The officials union and the NFL need to resume negotiating and they both must make reasonable concessions to reach a deal.

[FanInAZ]

Could one of you who claim to know what the refs salary/benefits package please provide a link that supports your claims so I can figure out whom, if any of you, actually knows what you’re talking about? TIA :hi:

[MNPatsFan]

Could one of you who claim to know what the refs salary/benefits package please provide a link that supports your claims so I can figure out whom, if any of you, actually knows what you’re talking about? TIA :hi:Didn't have time to do a thorough search, but found this in an article:

Of course the referees want to be paid more – the NFL, despite being the most successful and most profitable sports league in the United States at the moment, pays their referees far less than any of the rest of the big four. The average starting salary for a first year NFL official is $78,000 – certainly a great deal for a part time job. But compare that to the starting salary for, say, an MLB umpire --$120,000 a year. That's about as much as a ten year NFL veteran referee makes. NBA and NHL refs similarly make six figure salaries from the start. Of course, you could argue that they officiate dozens, if not hundreds, of games a year, while the NFL ref will top out at about twenty – a fair point. . . . The NFL is offering a five-to-eleven percent raise for its officials, but that still leaves them trailing behind their counterparts significantly. They want to pay their officials part time wages while still holding them to the same standards of their full-time counterparts.

http://www.thebestsportsblog.com/breaking-down-the-nfl-referee-lockout.html

Here is a quick blurb I found on converting retirement plans from pensions:


Yes; however, employers are not required to establish pension plans for their employees because the private pension system is voluntary. In addition, employers are allowed substantial flexibility in deciding whether to terminate or amend their existing plans. Therefore, employers generally may change by plan amendment their traditional pension plans and the benefit formulas they use.

Federal law does place restrictions on plan changes generally. For example, advance notification to plan participants is required if, as a result of the amendment, the rate that plan participants may earn benefits in the future is significantly reduced. Additionally, there are other legal requirements that have to be satisfied, including prohibitions against age discrimination. In addition, while employers may amend their plans to cease future benefits or reduce the rate at which future benefits are earned, they generally are prohibited from reducing the benefits that participants have already earned. In other words, an employee generally may not receive less than his or her accrued benefit under the plan formula at the effective date of the amendment. For example, assume that a plan's benefit formula provides a monthly pension at age 65 equal to 1.5 percent for each year of service multiplied by the monthly average of a participant's highest three years of compensation, and that the plan is amended to change the benefit formula. If a participant has completed 10 years of service at the time of the amendment, the participant will have the right to receive a monthly pension at age 65 equal to 15 percent of the monthly average of the participant's highest three years of compensation when the plan amendment is effective. This pre-amendment benefit (including related early retirement benefits) is protected by law and cannot be reduced.

In addition, there are additional restrictions that apply specifically in the case of an amendment that converts a plan formula to a cash balance plan formula. Specifically, participants must receive the sum of the pre-amendment benefit plus benefits under the new cash balance formula (as a result, there cannot be a "wear away" period during which the participant does not accrue additional benefits, as could occur if participants were merely entitled to the greater benefit). Furthermore, all benefits under a cash balance plan (including benefits accrued prior to a conversion) must be fully vested after 3 years of service.

http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/publications/cb_pension_plans.html

[jhns]

So the teams can get in trouble as Goodell intentionally puts an inferior product on the field? Makes sense...

Can owners vote Goodell out of office? There needs to be a way for them to fire him. The guy is terrible for this sport.

[jhns]

Didn't have time to do a thorough search, but found this in an article:


http://www.thebestsportsblog.com/breaking-down-the-nfl-referee-lockout.html

Here is a quick blurb I found on converting retirement plans from pensions:



http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/publications/cb_pension_plans.html

That raise is BS though. It is why they won't take the NFLs offer. They are offering that much more for the entire pool of refs, which is being expanded. It works out as a pay cut for all refs who have been in the league. That is all according to white hat Clete Blakeman(sp?) Who has been calling into a local morning show.

[topscribe]

Well IMHO it isn't a piddling amount. I would gladly work for that piddling amount (a 6 figure salary) for PART-TIME work on weekends ONLY during about half the year or less. I would hazard a guess that there are MANY people who would work FULL-TIME for that alleged piddling amount consisting of a SIX figure salary.

I don't like how the officials have been doing but I don't feel like the NFL must automatically give into the officials unreasonable demands.

BTW, it isn't like the regular officials haven't become such factors in games. Just maybe not on the same level. The officials union and the NFL need to resume negotiating and they both must make reasonable concessions to reach a deal.
I don't know how comparing the jobs of the officials with those of us who work
full-time out here in real life is applicable. How many people who work full-time
equal Peyton Manning's $18 million a year salary? Hochuli, for instance, probably
doesn't equal that, but I'll bet his income from his law firm amounts to seven
figures. For that reason, it would surprise me to find he's out front in this dispute,
unless it is for his fellow officials.

But when considering whether what the refs want to be paid is a "piddling little
sum," we need to remain within the parameters of the NFL. Within that world,
it indeed is, and if the athletes can be paid the truly outrageous and out-of-
hand salaries, then why not pay the refs more reasonable salaries for their part
in protecting the integrity of the game?
.

[tomjonesrocks]

I thought Fox might pull the Broncos off the field on Monday.

That would have been quite a statement. That fumble call in hindsight could very well have cost Denver the game.

[OrangeHoof]

no the penalty is they are scheduled for the next raiders home game.

Once the weather gets colder, the worst refs will be assigned to games in Buffalo and Cleveland.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

from article:


The referees' union and NFL team owners remain at odds on several issues -- pay, staffing levels and the arbitration system, to name a few. But Scott Green, the referee who's head of the NFL Referees Association, says there's one proposal above all others that he and his colleagues can't manage to swallow: the league wants to freeze their long-running pension plans and switch them to less attractive 401(k)-style retirement plans.

"The key is the pension issue," Green told HuffPost, adding that the pensions have been around since the mid-1970s. "A lot of our guys have made life-career decisions based on assuming that pension would be there."

full article - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/13/nfl-referee-lockout-pensions_n_1879049.html

[slim]

Lol I was there the night before last. You know that its a super walmart now?...Right in front of an olive garden. Yes SV is moving on up.

There was a Mexican restaurant on the edge of town called Ricardo's (or something like that). I heard it burned down in the Monument Fire. Is that true?

[MNPatsFan]

I don't know how comparing the jobs of the officials with those of us who work
full-time out here in real life is applicable. How many people who work full-time
equal Peyton Manning's $18 million a year salary? Hochuli, for instance, probably
doesn't equal that, but I'll bet his income from his law firm amounts to seven
figures. For that reason, it would surprise me to find he's out front in this dispute,
unless it is for his fellow officials.Not sure where you get that I was comparing full-time workers to Peyton Manning's salary?:salute:

Comparing the jobs of the officials with those of us who work full-time out here in real life is applicable because I don't know of any other job where a person works at most 20 weekends per year and is paid $78,000 for first year officials and over $100,000 (heard someone on one of the ESPN channels say $140,000) for the vast majority of officials, plus receive room, board, travel expenses and retirement and other benefits. The NFL is offering a 5-11% raise in those salaries making them even higher. I don't know many jobs that are offering 5-11% raises in their salaries. Most jobs or professions are not even receiving raises equal to the yearly increase in cost of living. As a result, I along with I suspect a majority of working people would accept that job in a second because I would still be able to work my full-time weekday job and earn $80,000+ and benefits!!!


But when considering whether what the refs want to be paid is a "piddling little
sum," we need to remain within the parameters of the NFL. Within that world,
it indeed is, and if the athletes can be paid the truly outrageous and out-of-
hand salaries, then why not pay the refs more reasonable salaries for their part
in protecting the integrity of the game?You don't consider paying the officials $80,000+ (after the 5-11% raise) for first year officials and over $100,000/$140,000) for the vast majority of officials a reasonable salary for working part-time and 20 weekends a year at most???:confused:

If not, then I would love to work part-time, weekends only, for 20 or less weekends a year for YOU top and get paid "reasonably"!;)

The athletes are clearly paid outrageous and out-of-hand salaries, but at least they work FULL-TIME or year-round for their salaries.

[topscribe]

Not sure where you get that I was comparing full-time workers to Peyton Manning's salary?:salute:

Comparing the jobs of the officials with those of us who work full-time out here in real life is applicable because I don't know of any other job where a person works at most 20 weekends per year and is paid $78,000 for first year officials and over $100,000 (heard someone on one of the ESPN channels say $140,000) for the vast majority of officials, plus receive room, board, travel expenses and retirement and other benefits. The NFL is offering a 5-11% raise in those salaries making them even higher. I don't know many jobs that are offering 5-11% raises in their salaries. Most jobs or professions are not even receiving raises equal to the yearly increase in cost of living. As a result, I along with I suspect a majority of working people would accept that job in a second because I would still be able to work my full-time weekday job and earn $80,000+ and benefits!!!

You don't consider paying the officials $80,000+ (after the 5-11% raise) for first year officials and over $100,000/$140,000) for the vast majority of officials a reasonable salary for working part-time and 20 weekends a year at most???:confused:

If not, then I would love to work part-time, weekends only, for 20 or less weekends a year for YOU top and get paid "reasonably"!;)

The athletes are clearly paid outrageous and out-of-hand salaries, but at least they work FULL-TIME or year-round for their salaries.
I understand your reasoning, MN. I just think think the pay level for officials is out of proportion to the rest of the league.
.

[weazel]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8404563/nfl-issues-field-conduct-warning-owners-general-managers-coaches-all-32-teams



Interesting... Whats your opinion on coaches yelling a refs in a situation like we're in now?

Should coaches remain silent when a blatantly bad call is made?

The NFL's take... We can make a joke of the shield, but the players and coaches better not. do as we say, not as we do.

[TXBRONC]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8404563/nfl-issues-field-conduct-warning-owners-general-managers-coaches-all-32-teams



Interesting... Whats your opinion on coaches yelling a refs in a situation like we're in now?



Should coaches remain silent when a blatantly bad call is made?

When have coaches remained silent with blatantly bad calls?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

When have coaches remained silent with blatantly bad calls?

Exactly - the NFL is trying to keep coaches, players quiet, so as not to appear that they do not agree what the NFL is doing.

[Ravage!!!]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8404563/nfl-issues-field-conduct-warning-owners-general-managers-coaches-all-32-teams



Interesting... Whats your opinion on coaches yelling a refs in a situation like we're in now?

Should coaches remain silent when a blatantly bad call is made?

I don't think its saying not to yell at all.

Lets face it, the refs are bad. HOWEVER, they really are doing the best they can. The players, and coaches, are taking advantage of the fact that these guys do not have the confidence and experience, that the other officials do. These refs are getting earfuls in a situation that THEY know, is above their head.

The players are going overboard, the coaches are going overboard, and they are doing it with the purpose of "bullying" the refs. As much as I feel the temp officials are doing a bad job, and really want the best one's back, I don't blame the NFL for calling for this action.

[OrangeHoof]

Everyone tries to lobby the referees for favorable spots and calls. They did it all the time to the union refs but the union refs knew a lot of it was bs and ignored it. The replacement refs don't know enough to know when they are being bs'd so they are probably being swayed more often than the usual guys.

These folks refereed Division II and Division III college football and now Bill Belichick or Mike Shanahan is yelling in their ears and I can imagine these refs are somewhat influenced. If some nobody coach is berating you, it's easily dismissed but when it's a guy who has won Super Bowls, that probably means more. The union refs know these guys enough to ignore all of them.

It's the same as when the baseball umpires get vacation and some AAA umpire takes their place. The managers try to work them, the players try to work them, the coaches try to work them. They all try to test the umpire and hope to get some advantage that they know they wouldn't have the chance to do with the regulars.

A certain percent of the berating of these refs is for the simple hope of getting a favorable call later. We all know that happens and it especially happens when there is somebody new who may not know the tricks.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

NEW YORK -- The NFL and its locked-out officials met twice this week but remain far apart in settling their financial dispute, according to sources.

Despite substantial discussion, "significant" and "serious" economic gaps remain and no further talks are scheduled, according to a source.

The regular officials have lost an average of more than $50,000 each so far. The average official made $150,000 last year for a 20-game season. They have missed seven game assignments, including preseason.

rest - http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8406500/big-gaps-remain-league-officials-sources

[Mike]

Dear coaches,

Please stop making our bargaining position weaker. Thank you.

*******

[camdisco24]

When have coaches remained silent with blatantly bad calls?

Like Carol said, that's my whole point. This whole situation is just silly at this point. The NFL has been sloppy in trying to prove a point and maintain bargaining power.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Throughout the preseason we were all in a tizzy, asking ourselves, how are the refs going to affect the lines? What are bookmakers doing to account for mistakes? How are bettors going to take advantage?

The standard response, from bookmakers and bettors alike, was, "The bad calls impact both teams, we don't really need to make adjustments."

Then, of course, the season started. And the refs called nearly half a dozen pass interferences on the Cards in the final minutes of Week 1, practically begging the driving Seahawks to score (and cover). And they called a suspect offensive pass interference against the Ravens, negating a touchdown that would have sealed a win against Philly. Suddenly, to borrow a phrase, we had irrefutable video evidence that maybe there was some kind of advantage to be had from a betting perspective.

rest - nsider.espn.go.com/insider/blog/_/name/millman_chad/id/8407045/gambling-nfl-week-3-line-moves-new-overtime-rules

need to be an insider to read more than what is on the link - I am not an insider

[Denver Native (Carol)]

from article -


Q: After watching a phantom pass interference call in the Steelers-Jets game, I wondered how susceptible is the NFL to a Tim Donaghy type scandal right now? At the time of the fishy play, the Jets were down by ten in the 2nd half with a spread around 5 and a half. We already know the NFL's background checks for replacements were next to nothing. (See: the New Orleans Saints' fan wearing Saints stuff on his Facebook page that went unnoticed until the 11th hour). If I am one of the replacement refs and my normal annual salary is around $25,000, I might be taking calls from "Tony the Shark" in New York.
—Ryan Galvin, St. Paul

SG: Plus, the fake refs were so dreadful in Week 2, how could we tell if they crossed the line and decided to start throwing games? It would be like Honey Boo Boo's mom deciding to act dumber than usual. You did? I had no idea! What Donaghy achieved was much tougher: He artfully manipulated the scores of dozens of games (usually skewing them higher, to cover "over" bets) without raising any real suspicion. Replacement officials would only need to make a couple of crucial calls that couldn't be reviewed: One bad pass interference, two dubious holding penalties, and suddenly, they're home free. Or, they could swing the other way and do nothing as all hell is breaking loose … you know, like every official as the Giants were committing holds left and right during the Helmet Catch. (Sorry, I had to.) Either way, we'd never be able to tell because the bar has been lowered so dramatically already. For instance …

rest - more questions and answers - http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8407097/the-mailbag#8211referee-armageddon

So, the NFL thinks if they tell the owners/coaches/players to shut up - all will be OK :tsk: - They have to be reading the countless negative articles out there.

[Cugel]

The regular refs got yelled at all of the time. I don't ever remember a memo being put out to every team in the league to cool it. This is just a coverup by the NFL. They know the product on the field is terrible, and they don't want owners/coaches/players endorsing that same feeling. Here is what I do not understand - it is the OWNERS who pay the refs salaries. I would imagine all of the owners are upset. Why can't the owners tell whoever is negotiating to give the refs what they want?????? Or, is it a situation where the owners pay, but the NFL runs the show???????

Are you paying any attention at ALL to how the NFL is run? Roger Goddell is doing EXACTLY what the owners (or a decisive majority of them) want at all times. Period.

The owners are reactionary autocratic billionaires. They HATE the referees union. They want to destroy it. It's not really about the money. The amount of money in controversy is utterly TRIVIAL in a $9 billion a year industry -- amounting literally to less than $800,000 per owner, per year. It's not even POCKET CHANGE to the NFL.

No, this is about POWER and who has it and who doesn't. The NFL owners are DETERMINED to destroy the referees union because it exists and they don't like it. They are stuck with the players' union because they learned a bitter lesson years ago when they tried to lock out the players. Fans will tolerate a LOT, but they won't just roll over and pay good money for season tickets to watch some arena league scrub play QB instead of Aaron Rogers.

But, nobody cares at all about the referees unless they blow a call and the home team loses.

If the league (i.e. the owners) cared one PIN for what anybody thinks, including the fans, about this controversy they would have settled it by now.

Did you know the referees actually CAPITULATED on the key economic demand of the NFL, by proposing that EXISTING referees continue to have a defined benefit pension plan, while all NEW referees would get a defined contribution plan (benefits not guaranteed) -- the later being the NFL's major demand.

The NFL rejected this proposal out of hand. What it would mean is that as existing referees retired or were fired and replaced the NFL's pension system would gradually become exactly what the league wants! I.e. they would win, but there would be a transition period during which the existing referees would be acquiring the same pension benefits the league promised when they signed on.

The NFL rejected this and similar proposals because they state "other industries are eliminating pension benefits" and they want to do so too (even though most NFL teams privately maintain pensions for their employees).

In short, this dispute is a created by a bunch of ego-maniac tyrant owners who just can't stand having to tolerate a union. Any union. It's the NFL owners saying "I have more money than you and what I say goes!" Regardless of whether it makes the remotest kind of sense or not.

Considering the public relations disaster that the current referee mess is becoming, they would have settled this tempest in a tea-pot long ago if it wasn't all about their egos, not the money!

They want to break the union and have the individual referees have to crawl back and beg for their old jobs. And then the owners can consider which referees they want to punish and make an example of for daring to stand up to the NFL.

[slim]

Why do they need to have a defined benefit plan? It's a freaking part time job....completely unreasonable.

[Nomad]

Go Union! it's interesting to see people back the unions when it conflicts with their interests. I know it's political talk, but as I read some here glorifying the refs union and see what they have to say about labor unions and such in politics especially when they believe in a capitalist society. Isn't the NFL a business, but again, unions always ask more for what they are worth and owners of businesses always try to get the cheapest route regardless of the quality of the employee. Anyway, just an observation.


Just remember these refs are amateurs, why are expectations so high?

[Cugel]

Not sure where you get that I was comparing full-time workers to Peyton Manning's salary?:salute:

Comparing the jobs of the officials with those of us who work full-time out here in real life is applicable because I don't know of any other job where a person works at most 20 weekends per year and is paid $78,000 for first year officials and over $100,000 (heard someone on one of the ESPN channels say $140,000) for the vast majority of officials, plus receive room, board, travel expenses and retirement and other benefits. The NFL is offering a 5-11% raise in those salaries making them even higher. I don't know many jobs that are offering 5-11% raises in their salaries. Most jobs or professions are not even receiving raises equal to the yearly increase in cost of living. As a result, I along with I suspect a majority of working people would accept that job in a second because I would still be able to work my full-time weekday job and earn $80,000+ and benefits!!!

You don't consider paying the officials $80,000+ (after the 5-11% raise) for first year officials and over $100,000/$140,000) for the vast majority of officials a reasonable salary for working part-time and 20 weekends a year at most???:confused:

If not, then I would love to work part-time, weekends only, for 20 or less weekends a year for YOU top and get paid "reasonably"!;)

The athletes are clearly paid outrageous and out-of-hand salaries, but at least they work FULL-TIME or year-round for their salaries.

They make a good living so they should be punished?! Because they make more money than you their contract rights don't count? They should have their existing pensions taken away by billionaire owners who don't "work" at all?

The owners are saying "even though we are making PILES of money, more every year, we just don't want to fund your pension benefits. Screw you!"

Let's stop pretending this has anything whatever to do with money. The amount of money in controversy is utterly TRIVIAL by NFL standards. It is utterly trivial to each individual owner. like Pat Bowlen, whose franchise is currently worth $1.1 BILLION according to Forbes Business Magazine.


The dispute is not about money at all. It would have been settled by negotiation LONG ago if that were the case, especially since the referees' union basically capitulated to the NFL's demands by accepting the defined benefit plan as the basis of negotiation.

The NFL wants to replace them. And the owners don't care how bad they look, how greedy or stupid or how poorly the scab referees do, or which teams (like the Broncos) get utterly SCREWED by blown calls which might impact their playoff chances.

They feel they have the power and are going to win and that's all that matters. Unless the fans start to walk out of the stadiums, this lockout is going to continue until the referees agree to disband their union and surrender unconditionally.

[Cugel]

Why do they need to have a defined benefit plan? It's a freaking part time job....completely unreasonable.

Because they ALREADY HAD a defined benefit plan, because while YOU might think it's "unreasonable" it was the outcome of collective bargaining, and in fact defined benefit plans USED to be the STANDARD in America, UNTIL corporate America decided they could make more money for their shareholders by screwing their workers and going to a defined contribution plan.

However, because the NFL is so lucrative most NFL teams actually have defined benefit plans for their employees already. The NFL isn't getting rid of THEM, just the referees.

And again you are missing the entire point! The referees were willing to CONCEDE this point. They were willing to go to a defined contribution plan, with the current plan only vested for the CURRENT refs (a mere handful -- which would make the economic impact to the NFL even more TRIVIAL than it already was).

The NFL rejected this proposal, because they don't want a negotiated settlement. They want to make the referees crawl back on their hands and knees to beg for their jobs back.

Which is fine, if you think that sort of power display is "normal" -- but they are HURTING the games! They are screwing with the FANS by using crap referees who flat can't do the job.

THAT is why this is a big controversy. NOT just because a few dozen referees get fewer pension benefits!

[slim]

Because they ALREADY HAD a defined benefit plan, because while YOU might think it's "unreasonable" it was the outcome of collective bargaining, and in fact defined benefit plans USED to be the STANDARD in America, UNTIL corporate America decided they could make more money for their shareholders by screwing their workers and going to a defined contribution plan.

However, because the NFL is so lucrative most NFL teams actually have defined benefit plans for their employees already. The NFL isn't getting rid of THEM, just the referees.

And again you are missing the entire point! The referees were willing to CONCEDE this point. They were willing to go to a defined contribution plan, with the current plan only vested for the CURRENT refs (a mere handful -- which would make the economic impact to the NFL even more TRIVIAL than it already was).

The NFL rejected this proposal, because they don't want a negotiated settlement. They want to make the referees crawl back on their hands and knees to beg for their jobs back.

Which is fine, if you think that sort of power display is "normal" -- but they are HURTING the games! They are screwing with the FANS by using crap referees who flat can't do the job.

THAT is why this is a big controversy. NOT just because a few dozen referees get fewer pension benefits!

Defined benefit plans may have been somewhat commonplace in the past, but they were never offered to part-time employees (at least I would find that very hard to believe).

Funny thing about collective bargaining agreements....they need to be renegotiated every time the agreement expires. The past negotiation is irrelevant.

I don't really care if they get the benefit or not, but it seems to me like they are asking for something that is unreasonable….something that would be completely unobtainable to the average full-time employee (not to mention part-time employee) in the corporate world we currently live in.

[Cugel]

Go Union! it's interesting to see people back the unions when it conflicts with their interests. I know it's political talk, but as I read some here glorifying the refs union and see what they have to say about labor unions and such in politics especially when they believe in a capitalist society. Isn't the NFL a business, but again, unions always ask more for what they are worth and owners of businesses always try to get the cheapest route regardless of the quality of the employee. Anyway, just an observation.

Just remember these refs are amateurs, why are expectations so high?

It ain't about how "glorious" the referees union is. :coffee:

It's about how greedy, arrogant, blind and stupid the NFL owners are.

They are willing to make a mockery of the entire NFL season to prove that they have the power. Nothing else.

And the amount of money in controversy is so pitifully small that it just doesn't matter to the owners at all. Like I keep saying: it's all about power and not about money -- or else the referees almost total capitulation would have ended the lockout long ago.

We didn't need as fans to be subjected to this infantile display by Roger Goddell and the owners. It amounts to a temper tantrum.

And the latest edict to the coaches and GMS: "don't make us look bad us by complaining when the scrub officials blow the simplest calls on the field, can't even figure out how to spot the ball correctly, and cost your team the game"? Do any of you really support that insanity?

How are you going to feel if the Broncos missed the playoffs by one game, and you have to go into the off-season knowing that if the REAL referees were reffing the Falcons game, they would have awarded the fumble to Orlando Franklin and the Broncos. And the Broncos would probably have WON that game. (At least it would probably have been tied at the end of regulation).

[Nomad]

Defined benefit plans may have been somewhat commonplace in the past, but they were never offered to part-time employees (at least I would find that very hard to believe).

Funny thing about collective bargaining agreements....they need to be renegotiated every time the agreement expires. The past negotiation is irrelevant.

I don't really care if they get the benefit or not, but it seems to me like they are asking for something that is unreasonable….something that would be completely unobtainable to the average full-time employee (not to mention part-time employee) in the corporate world we currently live in.


That's my hangup with this whole thing........a part time guy wanting so much regardless of what revenue the NFL brings. If this is the case then I'm going work part time for Conoco-Phillips and start demanding some overvalued benefits. :D

Also, the reg refs quality has been on the decline over the years perhaps some new blood will turn that around. I just see the replacements are the scapegoats for an NFL with more problems than just officiating.

[Nomad]

It ain't about how "glorious" the referees union is. :coffee:

It's about how greedy, arrogant, blind and stupid the NFL owners are.

They are willing to make a mockery of the entire NFL season to prove that they have the power. Nothing else.

And the amount of money in controversy is so pitifully small that it just doesn't matter to the owners at all. Like I keep saying: it's all about power and not about money -- or else the referees almost total capitulation would have ended the lockout long ago.

We didn't need as fans to be subjected to this infantile display by Roger Goddell and the owners. It amounts to a temper tantrum.

And the latest edict to the coaches and GMS: "don't make us look bad us by complaining when the scrub officials blow the simplest calls on the field, can't even figure out how to spot the ball correctly, and cost your team the game"? Do any of you really support that insanity?

How are you going to feel if the Broncos missed the playoffs by one game, and you have to go into the off-season knowing that if the REAL referees were reffing the Falcons game, they would have awarded the fumble to Orlando Franklin and the Broncos. And the Broncos would probably have WON that game. (At least it would probably have been tied at the end of regulation).

Orlando Franklin could have been called for a hold which would have nullified the Thomas touchdown against Pittsburgh. Nitpicking what penalties you want to see and avoiding others which benefited the BRONCOS doesn't help the debate.

I'm actually not in support for or against the reg refs. But I do understand union negotiations and that the replacements are amateurs.

Quit being the 'Glenn Beck' of BroncosForums.

[Cugel]

Defined benefit plans may have been somewhat commonplace in the past, but they were never offered to part-time employees (at least I would find that very hard to believe).

Funny thing about collective bargaining agreements....they need to be renegotiated every time the agreement expires. The past negotiation is irrelevant.

I don't really care if they get the benefit or not, but it seems to me like they are asking for something that is unreasonable….something that would be completely unobtainable to the average full-time employee (not to mention part-time employee) in the corporate world we currently live in.

It is NOT "unobtainable" in FOOTBALL, whatever may be the standard in other industries. PERIOD. I've already told you, but you ignored these points, that most NFL teams already HAVE defined benefit plans.

And more to the point, did you utterly fail to grasp the SIGNIFICANT POINT? That the union CAPITULATED on this point!

Their proposal would mean that as existing referees are replaced (and they are replaced each year, just like players they don't last forever), the overall pension plan would come to be exactly what the NFL is demanding.

Plus, the amount of money in controversy is just ludicrously small compared to the salary structure of the NFL. It's not even a drop in the bucket in a $9 billion a year business.

So, WHY exactly is the league willing to screw up all their games and tarnish their product and anger their fans, all to prove so small a point over such a tiny amount of money, to such a mere handful employees? How can this all be justified by the NFL?

[Cugel]

Orlando Franklin could have been called for a hold which would have nullified the Thomas touchdown against Pittsburgh. Nitpicking what penalties you want to see and avoiding others which benefited the BRONCOS doesn't help the debate.

I'm actually not in support for or against the reg refs. But I do understand union negotiations and that the replacements are amateurs.

Quit being the 'Glenn Beck' of BroncosForums.

LOTS of penalties could have been called, and LOTS of calls gotten right that were screwed up. Too many to recount. And they cut both ways. There were LOTS of calls that hurt the Broncos, such as the failure to call the Falcons for blatant offensive pass-interference on the 3rd and 5 pass-play when they picked off Champ Bailey to get their game clinching first down.

I didn't mention them because it would be ENDLESS.

I merely picked out THAT particular call, because it was totally an egregious screwup, and second to prove a point that these calls can ruin a teams' season. And they WILL ruin a team's season if these scab refs continue to call the games because they can't do their jobs! PERIOD!

P.S. I personally despise Glen Beck, so don't compare me to him in any way. :mad:

[slim]

It is NOT "unobtainable" in FOOTBALL,
It is to part-time employees.


but you ignored these points, that most NFL teams already HAVE defined benefit plans.
Not for part-time employees.


And more to the point, did you utterly fail to grasp the SIGNIFICANT POINT? That the union CAPITULATED on this point!
Then S T F U about it.


Their proposal would mean that as existing referees are replaced (and they are replaced each year, just like players they don't last forever), the overall pension plan would come to be exactly what the NFL is demanding.
I don't care


Plus, the amount of money in controversy is just ludicrously small compared to the salary structure of the NFL. It's not even a drop in the bucket in a $9 billion a year business.
Yes, it's easy to spend someone else's money. Maybe you should let me spend yours?


[COLOR="#FFFF00"][B]So, WHY exactly is the league willing to screw up all their games and tarnish their product and anger their fans, all to prove so small a point over such a tiny amount of money, to such a mere handful employees?
This part I kind of agree with, sort of. But at the end of the day, it's not your money. It's easy to spend someone else's money. Maybe you should let me spend yours?

[Cugel]

Also, the reg refs quality has been on the decline over the years perhaps some new blood will turn that around. I just see the replacements are the scapegoats for an NFL with more problems than just officiating.

If you are going to defend the league for putting out utterly INCOMPETENT officials then I just shake my head! :rolleyes:

"Perhaps some new blood" will somehow IMPROVE the refereeing? Are you utterly BLIND? Have you been WATCHING these games? Do you think the "new blood" has "improved" anything about the quality of the refereeing this season?

The old referees might have had their troubles from time to time, but damn! These replacement refs can't even get the simplest down and distance ball spotting decisions right! It's beyond pitiful.

[OrangeHoof]

How are you going to feel if the Broncos missed the playoffs by one game, and you have to go into the off-season knowing that if the REAL referees were reffing the Falcons game, they would have awarded the fumble to Orlando Franklin and the Broncos.

Total bullshit. I've seen plenty of times where the refs awarded the ball to the team that didn't come out of the scrum with the ball and "upon further review" concluded there was no visual evidence to overturn the call because there was a big pile of bodies around the ball and no way to verify who had the ball at the point the play was whistled dead.

You assume that a) the regular refs would have given the ball to the Broncos on the field or b) instant replay would have overturned the ruling when there's no way to know if the regular union refs would have done either one.

Secondly, how do we not know that, by the time the strike is settled, the Broncos will have won two games this year based on questionable referee calls that went our way? I'm guessing your answer if the Broncos make the playoffs in that scenario will be "that's the breaks!".

The REAL refs are just as crappy and just as crooked as the replacement refs. Remember that Super Bowl between the Steelers and the Seahwaks? Remember that blown call last year where the Steelers flubbed a backward pass which the Broncos recovered and was told it was still Steelers' ball? Remember the Ftuck Rule?

I've thought the last few years that the refs give the Steelers every break in the world, particularly late in the game. Where's your proof that the union refs weren't fixing games for the Steelers?

My point is that you can't presume that the replacement refs are crooked but the union refs aren't and you can't presume that the replacement refs are more incompetent than the union refs when it comes to calls like pass interference and holding because we've all seen tons of calls/non-calls in past years that were/weren't made when the instant replay told a different story.

[Cugel]

This part I kind of agree with, sort of. But at the end of the day, it's not your money. It's easy to spend someone else's money. Maybe you should let me spend yours?

You are obviously one of those kinds of people who will always bow to anybody in authority. :rolleyes:

The NFL is always right. The referees should give up all their pension rights because you don't think they should have them.

The fans should just suck it up and endure endless incompetent refereeing because "it's not your money." No matter how trivial the amount in controversy is to the league, and no matter how serious the problem, no matter how screwed up the situation gets for the fans, you stand with the league!

Got it. :coffee:

[Nomad]

If you are going to defend the league for putting out utterly INCOMPETENT officials then I just shake my head! :rolleyes:

"Perhaps some new blood" will somehow IMPROVE the refereeing? Are you utterly BLIND? Have you been WATCHING these games? Do you think the "new blood" has "improved" anything about the quality of the refereeing this season?

The old referees might have had their troubles from time to time, but damn! These replacement refs can't even get the simplest down and distance ball spotting decisions right! It's beyond pitiful.


Cugel...they're in negitoations. Without the replacements, there would be no football.

I wasn't talking about the replacements, but trying to explain to you is like talking to a wall. Then again, when I respect your opinion, that's when I'll give a shit what you have to say. You are a very extreme individual who goes off the deep end.

[slim]

You are obviously one of those kinds of people who will always bow to anybody in authority. :rolleyes:

The NFL is always right. The referees should give up all their pension rights because you don't think they should have them.

The fans should just suck it up and endure endless incompetent refereeing because "it's not your money." No matter how trivial the amount in controversy is to the league, and no matter how serious the problem, no matter how screwed up the situation gets for the fans, you stand with the league!

Got it. :coffee:

So does this mean I can spend your money?

[Cugel]

The REAL refs are just as crappy and just as crooked as the replacement refs. Remember that Super Bowl between the Steelers and the Seahwaks? Remember that blown call last year where the Steelers flubbed a backward pass which the Broncos recovered and was told it was still Steelers' ball? Remember the Ftuck Rule?


This is all just FLAT WRONG. PERIOD! The scab refs are incompetent. The real refs are not.

IF you can't tell the difference, and think it's "all the same" then I'm not going to waste time in arguing with you.

You disagree with almost EVERY expert including former NFL chief officials commenting on TV and radio. :coffee:

Oh, and the "tuck rule" game refs got the call right. People might not have liked the rule, but that was the rule and they called it as written. Correctly. So, minus points for your example.

[Cugel]

So does this mean I can spend your money?

Sure. Just as soon as I inherit a couple of hundred million necessary to buy a share in an NFL team.

Oh, and I do spend money on games by buying Broncos tickets, so it is "my money" that they're screwing with. And no, I don't like it, and the majority of fans agree with me and not you!

[slim]

Kegels, I need to buy an oil filter so I can change my oil this weekend. It's only a few bucks.....so I'm sure you won't mind.

I will PM you my paypal info.

[Cugel]

Cugel...they're in negitoations. Without the replacements, there would be no football.

I wasn't talking about the replacements, but trying to explain to you is like talking to a wall. Then again, when I respect your opinion, that's when I'll give a shit what you have to say. You are a very extreme individual who goes off the deep end.

Do you really think the NFL is negotiating in good faith? That they care about what the fans think? That they care whether they are prolonging the crisis unnecessarily?

They don't NEED replacements. They need to accept a compromise settlement and get the real referees back immediately. They are not doing so because they are having a power fight.

And it is destroying the integrity of the game. Virtually every commentator agrees about that. And what is the league's response? Muzzle the coaches and GMs from uttering any criticism!

If you think I'M extreme you should hear what other fans in other cities are saying about having to endure this crap! :coffee:

[Cugel]

Dear coaches,

Please stop making our bargaining position weaker. Thank you.

*******

Here's at least one guy who actually gets it!

The league's position is absurd, yet some people keep leaping to defend it!

Coaches have ALWAYS criticized the refs. They will continue to do so on Sunday. Nothing will change except that more bad calls will be made and the refs will continue to blow games.

Vegas has already realized that the scab refs are calling about 1/3 more penalties on visiting teams than home teams so far this season which affects the point spread.

Then we have the referee who was pulled minutes before he was scheduled to referee a Saints game when somebody read his Facebook page and saw he was a die-hard Saints fan.

Then we have one scab ref who went up to a player before a game and told him that he needed that player to have a big game because the ref had him in his fantasy football league!

How long before organized crime figures out how to bribe some officials to change the outcome of a game like the BlackSox scandal of 1919 -- after all these officials will not get to stay in the NFL forever. It's going to be an overwhelming temptation for them to accept a big payday before they go back to refereeing semi-pro football on weekends.

There's going to be a major scandal come out about some referee throwing games this year or making a huge call to favor a team and it turns out they are fans of that team. Count on it.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Are you paying any attention at ALL to how the NFL is run? Roger Goddell is doing EXACTLY what the owners (or a decisive majority of them) want at all times. Period.

The owners are reactionary autocratic billionaires. They HATE the referees union. They want to destroy it. It's not really about the money. The amount of money in controversy is utterly TRIVIAL in a $9 billion a year industry -- amounting literally to less than $800,000 per owner, per year. It's not even POCKET CHANGE to the NFL.

No, this is about POWER and who has it and who doesn't. The NFL owners are DETERMINED to destroy the referees union because it exists and they don't like it. They are stuck with the players' union because they learned a bitter lesson years ago when they tried to lock out the players. Fans will tolerate a LOT, but they won't just roll over and pay good money for season tickets to watch some arena league scrub play QB instead of Aaron Rogers.

But, nobody cares at all about the referees unless they blow a call and the home team loses.

If the league (i.e. the owners) cared one PIN for what anybody thinks, including the fans, about this controversy they would have settled it by now.

Did you know the referees actually CAPITULATED on the key economic demand of the NFL, by proposing that EXISTING referees continue to have a defined benefit pension plan, while all NEW referees would get a defined contribution plan (benefits not guaranteed) -- the later being the NFL's major demand.

The NFL rejected this proposal out of hand. What it would mean is that as existing referees retired or were fired and replaced the NFL's pension system would gradually become exactly what the league wants! I.e. they would win, but there would be a transition period during which the existing referees would be acquiring the same pension benefits the league promised when they signed on.

The NFL rejected this and similar proposals because they state "other industries are eliminating pension benefits" and they want to do so too (even though most NFL teams privately maintain pensions for their employees).

In short, this dispute is a created by a bunch of ego-maniac tyrant owners who just can't stand having to tolerate a union. Any union. It's the NFL owners saying "I have more money than you and what I say goes!" Regardless of whether it makes the remotest kind of sense or not.

Considering the public relations disaster that the current referee mess is becoming, they would have settled this tempest in a tea-pot long ago if it wasn't all about their egos, not the money!

They want to break the union and have the individual referees have to crawl back and beg for their old jobs. And then the owners can consider which referees they want to punish and make an example of for daring to stand up to the NFL.

I might ask if you have read every post or article I have made in regards to the NFL using replacement refs. You will not find one positive post I have made where I concur with them using replacement refs.

[Army Bronco]

Lol I was there the night before last. You know that its a super walmart now?...Right in front of an olive garden. Yes SV is moving on up.

There was a Mexican restaurant on the edge of town called Ricardo's (or something like that). I heard it burned down in the Monument Fire. Is that true? Yes it did. That entire stretch looked like a Tim Burton movie.

[chaoticmayhem]

Steve Young summed it up perfectly. "The owners don't care" and you're still going to watch the games. As long as the fans are still buying the product they can put whatever the hell they want on the field.

[OrangeHoof]

You disagree with almost EVERY expert including former NFL chief officials commenting on TV and radio. :coffee:



Who are or were part of the referees union. Are they publicly going to choose against their friends and co-workers? That's the point I'm making. The players are union. The former refs are/were union. Many in the media are union.

There's a social price to pay for publicly taking a stand against their union buddies, so they're not going to do it and they'll grab hold of whatever shaky logic they need to stand with the union.

I realize some of the league's talking points are bs but so are some of the union's talking points. Just as you can be suspicious of anyone who supports the league, I can be suspicious of anyone who stands with the union because we all know that the mob runs most labor unions and they will single you out if you cross them.

[Nomad]

Who are or were part of the referees union. Are they publicly going to choose against their friends and co-workers? That's the point I'm making. The players are union. The former refs are/were union. Many in the media are union.

There's a social price to pay for publicly taking a stand against their union buddies, so they're not going to do it and they'll grab hold of whatever shaky logic they need to stand with the union.

I realize some of the league's talking points are bs but so are some of the union's talking points. Just as you can be suspicious of anyone who supports the league, I can be suspicious of anyone who stands with the union because we all know that the mob runs most labor unions and they will single you out if you cross them.

I'm IBEW and don't agree with everything the refs are selling and I'm sure the NFL is being hard headed as well. I disagree during negotiations with member of the same union I'm in. It doesn't make me a company man or an NFL minion just because I don't agree with the 'wants'. Hell, they even knew I voted Republican.

I would believe many here don't realize how negotiations are ran and the impatient are showing. As as a friend here said, I guess fans are tired and weary of labor negotiations within the NFL because they just came off the players' lockout last year.

[Chef Zambini]

Steve Young summed it up perfectly. "The owners don't care" and you're still going to watch the games. As long as the fans are still buying the product they can put whatever the hell they want on the field.yes but if mayhem(a brawl ) ensues because the refs lose control of a game, due to the lack of respect, then the leaugue fears reprisal, a LAW SUIT from affected players and teams !

[Chef Zambini]

BTW, bravo steve young for telling it like it is and not pulling any punches! he did the same when the broncos hung TT out to dry in detroit !

[Army Bronco]

I think part of the whole problem is that the NFL has had too many things going on in a short period of time. From the lockouts to the rule changes on contact. We need a season or two without changes or major issues if that's even possible. I guess we the fans will always complain about something.

[spikerman]

Those of you who believe that NFL officials only "work on weekends" are sorely underestimating the time they put in every week. I'm not making a comment about whether their position is right or wrong, only that the perception that they "only work on weekends" could not be more inaccurate.

[Poet]

I pay money to go to NFL games. The lack of good refs is heavily affecting the quality of what I am watching.

That's a concern. The Refs are asking for a pension and while they work part-time it is still a demanding job. You can't compare it to a part time job that a college student has. These are men, professional men who perform well overall and ref the most popular and fiscally success sport in the world.

The owners look like jackasses right now.

I mean, what are they going to do? Fine the coaches who go nuts and use that money to pay for the real refs?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I pay money to go to NFL games. The lack of good refs is heavily affecting the quality of what I am watching.

That's a concern. The Refs are asking for a pension and while they work part-time it is still a demanding job. You can't compare it to a part time job that a college student has. These are men, professional men who perform well overall and ref the most popular and fiscally success sport in the world.

The owners look like jackasses right now.

I mean, what are they going to do? Fine the coaches who go nuts and use that money to pay for the real refs?

The refs have a pension, which has been there since 1970. The NFL wants to do away with the pension, and change it to 401k(s)

[jhildebrand]

I mean, what are they going to do? Fine the coaches who go nuts...

Del Rio and John Fox were fined $20k each by the league for the ATL MNF game. The league actually called the stadium at half time and demanded the two tone it down.

Something tells me if NE and NY were the teams, the league darlings, it wouldn't be the same!

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8416305/denver-broncos-john-fox-jack-del-rio-fined-ref-abuse-source-says

[MOtorboat]

Did they fine the refs?

Because they're the ones who ****** up.

[jhildebrand]

Did they fine the refs?

Because they're the ones who ****** up.

They're penalizing the wrong refs!

I hope the coaches and players remain vocal and outspoken when the product is GARBAGE like MNF.

[Slick]

It seems unrealistic to me to expect the coaches to just shut up and take it. Some of them could lose their jobs over a couple of poorly officiated games.

[MOtorboat]

It seems unrealistic to me to expect the coaches to just shut up and take it. Some of them could lose their jobs over a couple of poorly officiated games.

Bingo.

They shouldn't shut up. Their livelihood is on the line too.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Del Rio and John Fox were fined $20k each by the league for the ATL MNF game. The league actually called the stadium at half time and demanded the two tone it down.

Something tells me if NE and NY were the teams, the league darlings, it wouldn't be the same!

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8416305/denver-broncos-john-fox-jack-del-rio-fined-ref-abuse-source-says

Apparently - not true, or at least - not yet

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2012/09/23/report-20000-fine-news-john-fox-jack-del-rio/15859/

[Poet]

The owners are being too greedy. This last game had the officials fingerprints all over it. If the regular refs just said screw it and this crap happened in the playoffs it would be awful. I bet they could get 200 grand a year and full benefits at this rate. It's awful. The games take longer, momentum is quelled because of them and no one respects them. These refs suck, I hate watching them and listening to them. I hate watching a game where a ref flags a coach for 15 yards because they are too stupid to go over and talk to him as he tries to call timeout.

These refs suck ass and the owners are ******* coddling them. **** the owners for dampening my favorite sport.

[OrangeHoof]

Meanwhile, Bill Belichick accosts a referee at the end of the Sunday Night game. Will he be fined by the league? Stay tuned.

[Poet]

To be honest I believe that if Ditka was coaching right now he would deck one.

[Nomad]

Coaches and players are taking advantage of bullying these refs. The FG was good and Bob Costos (sp) confirmed that. Yes, I realize these refs are inexperienced in the NFL but coaches and players should treat these guys like they would the regular officials and Tony Dungy agrees because I'm echoing what he said. I don't have a problem with them questioning but getting in their faces and such is bs.

I do hope next time my local is in negotiations, that the folks here at BF come to support us sparkys. Don't need scabs on a job site:lol:

[Broncos Mtnman]

The NFL is locking out the cheerleaders next year Im afraid of what the replacements will be.

These undercover pics have just been discovered from the secret NFL Cheerleader tryouts.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e93/86196/Ugly.png

[Dapper Dan]

@AdamSchefter: The NFL fined Broncos HC John Fox $30,000 and Denver DC Jack Del Rio $25,000 for their behavior during last Monday night’s loss to Atlanta.