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Denver Native (Carol)
09-18-2012, 10:05 AM
ATLANTA — Hey, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell. We beg you to stop this madness before there's a riot on the field among angry, 300-pound men in helmets.

Kiss and make up with the real game officials.

Life is too short for bad football. And the NFL is too dangerous to be policed by officials without a clue.

Never thought I'd say it, but: Gosh, do I miss Ed Hochuli.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/kiszla/ci_21567875/mark-kiszla-scab-nfl-officials

Denver Native (Carol)
09-18-2012, 10:06 AM
from article:


"Eric Decker was on the ball for sure," said Thomas. "Decker had the ball and they just took it from him. The referees pulled Decker off the ball.

http://www.denverpost.com/kiszla/ci_21567875/mark-kiszla-scab-nfl-officials

I posted in the game thread that Decker was laying on top of the ball

Denver Native (Carol)
09-18-2012, 10:17 AM
One official was pulled from duty because he's a fan. Another negated a touchdown without ever throwing a penalty flag. Several others had difficulty with basic rules.

Upon further review, the NFL's replacement officials came up short in Week 2.

Coaches and players around the league are losing patience and speaking out against the fill-in officials following a slew of questionable calls in the games Sunday and Monday night.

Some players are even joking about dipping into their own pockets to settle the contract dispute and get the regular officials back on the field.

rest - http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8394294/nfl-coaches-players-fed-fill-refs

Dzone
09-18-2012, 10:26 AM
Like Gruden said,It was hard to watch. That was beyond hozrrible last night.

jhns
09-18-2012, 10:34 AM
The thing that really sucks is that the season is so short, no one wants to miss any of it. I feel like the fans should protest, but I don't want to miss the games. I just wish there was a way dor peope to get rid of Goodell. I hate how he runs this league. Can the owners vote him out or something?

Foochacho
09-18-2012, 10:53 AM
Wish everyone would boycott this coming week. I am sure one week of nonratings would straighten it out. I worry this will go on all year or even a few more weeks. But an effective boycott would never happen, boycotts are hard to organize and are for hippies. Dirty ******* hippies. We could still boycot and watch streams. They lose the ratings on the streams. Though the streams would then be overloaded and suck worse than usual.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-18-2012, 10:58 AM
Last night on ESPN, after the game, there was an X NFL referee on, and he said that after the games, the talk should be about the game, the players - but it is not - IT IS ABOUT THE REFEREES

OrangeHoof
09-18-2012, 11:13 AM
My goodness. Some of these people speak as if the regular officials never make mistakes. The regular officials might not make the dumb errors but they made just as many questionable and hard-to-justify calls as these guys are doing.

I remember some calls last year that just had me livid, even in games where I didn't care who won. Lamebrained idiot calls by union refs.

And mentioning Ed Hochuli, who is among the best in his profession, is proof of my point. The San Diego fans still have a grudge against Hochuli for that call in the Cutler comeback. Hochuli isn't a bad ref - he's one of the best as revealed in player polls.

The refs did not throw those three interceptions in the first quarter. They didn't fumble the ball on the fourth drive. The Broncos did that without their involvement and that's what lost the game. The Broncos lost their composure and started doing dumb things.

Was it an ugly game to watch - yes, but that was because the Broncos were ugly to watch. The ones blaming the refs are just scapegoating.

CoachChaz
09-18-2012, 11:21 AM
My goodness. Some of these people speak as if the regular officials never make mistakes. The regular officials might not make the dumb errors but they made just as many questionable and hard-to-justify calls as these guys are doing.

I remember some calls last year that just had me livid, even in games where I didn't care who won. Lamebrained idiot calls by union refs.

And mentioning Ed Hochuli, who is among the best in his profession, is proof of my point. The San Diego fans still have a grudge against Hochuli for that call in the Cutler comeback. Hochuli isn't a bad ref - he's one of the best as revealed in player polls.

The refs did not throw those three interceptions in the first quarter. They didn't fumble the ball on the fourth drive. The Broncos did that without their involvement and that's what lost the game. The Broncos lost their composure and started doing dumb things.

Was it an ugly game to watch - yes, but that was because the Broncos were ugly to watch. The ones blaming the refs are just scapegoating.

Are you kidding me? The great thing to watch is a future Hall of Famer have a dismal start to a game and still have the capacity to dig his team out of a hole and lead them to victory. But Peyton wasnt given that opportunity last night because the referees took the game out of the hands of the players.

I will agree...the regular refs make bad calls as well. But the quantity and level of absurdity is nowhere close to where the scabs take it. Personally, I refuse to acknowledge the scabs are no different than the regulars. When anyone from the casual observer to sports media can see that...it says something

chazoe60
09-18-2012, 11:22 AM
My goodness. Some of these people speak as if the regular officials never make mistakes. The regular officials might not make the dumb errors but they made just as many questionable and hard-to-justify calls as these guys are doing.

I remember some calls last year that just had me livid, even in games where I didn't care who won. Lamebrained idiot calls by union refs.

And mentioning Ed Hochuli, who is among the best in his profession, is proof of my point. The San Diego fans still have a grudge against Hochuli for that call in the Cutler comeback. Hochuli isn't a bad ref - he's one of the best as revealed in player polls.

The refs did not throw those three interceptions in the first quarter. They didn't fumble the ball on the fourth drive. The Broncos did that without their involvement and that's what lost the game. The Broncos lost their composure and started doing dumb things.

Was it an ugly game to watch - yes, but that was because the Broncos were ugly to watch. The ones blaming the refs are just scapegoating.
WTF have you been watching? :laugh::laugh:

Foochacho
09-18-2012, 11:30 AM
WTF have you been watching? :laugh::laugh:

No shit these scrubs need to read the ******* rule book during the game and still get it wrong. The whole rhythm of the game is off. All refs make bad calls but it went from bad to worse. Makes all the difference when the outcome of the game is on the line. We don't need that shit for every team week in and week out. At least the regulars only screw up the actual outcomes every now and then.

topscribe
09-18-2012, 11:58 AM
from article:



http://www.denverpost.com/kiszla/ci_21567875/mark-kiszla-scab-nfl-officials

I posted in the game thread that Decker was laying on top of the ball
Yet we're being told the refs weren't part of the loss.

Really? Take the ball out of the Broncos' hands and give it to the Falcons? And
that doesn't contribute to the loss? Give 15 yards to the Falcons on a miserable
call against Champ, and that doesn't contribute? Call PI when there is no PI,
and that doesn't contribute?

It's true: Every year, every game, there is reason to gripe about a call or two.
But the whole game? Hochuli, please come back. I'll let you drive my car . . .
.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-18-2012, 01:58 PM
Let me start off by admitting I was shortsighted about one problem with the NFL's replacement refs: Their decided lack of experience with the procedures of running a game are so bad that it's affecting everyone's confidence.

And by everyone, I mean fans, coaches, players and at least one owner who spoke Tuesday morning on the condition of anonymity.

"I'm not comfortable with what I saw last night," the owner said after watching the Atlanta Falcons' 27-21 victory over the Denver Broncos. "It wasn't professional. It wasn't our standards of what a game is supposed to look like … it's not the calls themselves and it's not player safety. That's a silly argument.

"It's the competence and control of the game officials. The officials are supposed to be in control. They're supposed to run the game. Last night after the fumble [by Denver in the first quarter], they didn't have control. They looked like … I don't know want to say what they looked like."

rest - http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--nfl-owner-admits-that-confidence-is-eroding-in-replacements-officials.html

As I posted in another thread a while back, since it is the owners who pay the ref's salaries, I am hoping more than one owner feels this way.

topscribe
09-18-2012, 02:14 PM
rest - http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--nfl-owner-admits-that-confidence-is-eroding-in-replacements-officials.html

As I posted in another thread a while back, since it is the owners who pay the ref's salaries, I am hoping more than one owner feels this way.
That one call, the fumble the Broncos recovered yet was rewarded to the
Falcons, resulted in at least a 6 point swing (lost FG opportunity by Denver,
resulting FG by Atlanta). Ironically, Atlanta won by . . . 6 points . . .
.

G_Money
09-18-2012, 02:45 PM
I will agree...the regular refs make bad calls as well. But the quantity and level of absurdity is nowhere close to where the scabs take it.

Yep.

Who cares that Tebow throws incomplete passes? I mean, Manning or Brees only complete 65-70%, so Tim's 45% is only 25 percentage points less. What's 25%?

Whether at QB or in blown calls, 25% is a lot. These refs are worse at their jobs than Tebow is at passing. Tebow can do other things to try to make up the difference - the only other thing the refs are doing is raising my blood pressure, and I'm not gonna thank them for that.

~G

chazoe60
09-18-2012, 04:10 PM
Take the number of bad calls by the normal refs and that's the number of good calls by these guys. Take the number of good calls by the normal refs and that's the number of bad calls by these guys.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-18-2012, 08:44 PM
EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. -- As players and coaches around the NFL continue to express frustration with replacement referees, one former official blasted the league on Tuesday, saying commissioner Roger Goodell is devaluing officiating in the NFL and that the performance of replacement referees will deteriorate over time.

"It's obvious to me that (Goodell) just doesn't even care. Otherwise, how could they replace professionalism with unprofessionalism in a game that's so tough to work, even for the best officials in the land? How could he care about it?," Jerry Markbreit, who refereed 23 NFL seasons before retiring in 1998, said Tuesday on ESPN 98.7 FM's "The Mike Lupica Show."

Some have expressed confidence that replacement referees will improve as the weeks go by. But Markbreit doesn't see it that way.

rest - http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/8396189/former-referee-jerry-markbreit-blasts-nfl-roger-goodell-use-replacement-officials

OrangeHoof
09-18-2012, 10:02 PM
You have to understand that the union is always going to stand up for the union. Part of the bitching about the replacement refs is players (who are in a union) and the media (many of whom are also in a union) dogging the replacement refs because they are there to replace union refs. They could be out there doing an even better job than the union refs and you'd still get the same amount of bitching from the typical union supporters. That's what is always behind these things.

shank
09-18-2012, 10:15 PM
You have to understand that the union is always going to stand up for the union. Part of the bitching about the replacement refs is players (who are in a union) and the media (many of whom are also in a union) dogging the replacement refs because they are there to replace union refs. They could be out there doing an even better job than the union refs and you'd still get the same amount of bitching from the typical union supporters. That's what is always behind these things.

no. football has rules and people have eyes, that's the problem here.

Simple Jaded
09-18-2012, 10:21 PM
My goodness. Some of these people speak as if the regular officials never make mistakes. The regular officials might not make the dumb errors but they made just as many questionable and hard-to-justify calls as these guys are doing.
So if the real refs are bad why make an argument for refs that'r 10 times worse? I've heard this argument, it's weak. They need to get this shit done so we can get back to complaining about the real refs.......

Dzone
09-18-2012, 10:26 PM
Hopefully it doesnt deteriorate to the point of the NBA ref scandal.
And with all the bad calls going on, it wouldnt be hard to totally influence the outcome of a game for $$$$$ and nobody would notice it. Then cash in on a book deal in 10 years after you get busted for fixing games.
Its happened before. Some loner lunatic replacement ref who keeps to himself is he going to just say no to winning the lottery?

smith49
09-18-2012, 11:52 PM
Ok. So I'm going to throw in my opinion as if anyone cares. First off, I think these replacement refs are doing as good as they can. Having said that, they suuuuuuuck!!!!! There was at least three games this past weekend that hugely significant calls were made,that were wrong, that directly effected the outcome of the games. I know that happens from time to time with the regular refs, but more to the tune of a few a year instead of a few a week. They are very bad, on many levels. We can all see it.

Here's where I have a dilemma. I agree with Goodell and the nfl for not giving into the refs demands. Their demands are insanely unreasonable. I'm not going to go into them, but if you don't know what they are you need to go look it up.

So, I would love to have our regular refs back, even with the mistakes they sometimes make because they are clearly much better than these replacements. However, I'm pretty pissed off at our regular refs because they are selfish ********. I don't blame Goodell or the owners, I blame the refs. Is this irony at its best? Not sure, just the way I see it.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-19-2012, 10:45 AM
I do not feel the refs demands are insanely unreasonable. Some of these refs have been reffing for a long time, and from the beginning, it was a part time job. They all have their own full time jobs, which I am sure some of them have been at for a long time. Now, they want the refs to quit their full time jobs, and become full time employees of the NFL. I would believe some of these refs are close to having enough time invested in their full time jobs, where in a couple of years, they would receive retirement, etc. I realize there are many employees who have had to take pay cuts, etc. where they work, because of the poor economy, etc. However, the NFL has NOT suffered at all from the economy.

Can not remember who said it yesterday on national tv, but whoever said that Goodell wants to break the union.

topscribe
09-19-2012, 11:27 AM
I do not feel the refs demands are insanely unreasonable. Some of these refs have been reffing for a long time, and from the beginning, it was a part time job. They all have their own full time jobs, which I am sure some of them have been at for a long time. Now, they want the refs to quit their full time jobs, and become full time employees of the NFL. I would believe some of these refs are close to having enough time invested in their full time jobs, where in a couple of years, they would receive retirement, etc. I realize there are many employees who have had to take pay cuts, etc. where they work, because of the poor economy, etc. However, the NFL has NOT suffered at all from the economy.

Can not remember who said it yesterday on national tv, but whoever said that Goodell wants to break the union.
Well, we keep mentioning Hochuli (probably because that's the only name we
know among the "regular" officials). If they do go full time, we've probably seen
the last of Hochuli. He is the senior partner (IIRC) in a very successful family
law firm in Arizona. He probably makes as much as many pro athletes. The NFL
couldn't pay him enough to replace his present job. Just saying . . .

Simple Jaded
09-19-2012, 01:19 PM
I do not feel the refs demands are insanely unreasonable. Some of these refs have been reffing for a long time, and from the beginning, it was a part time job. They all have their own full time jobs, which I am sure some of them have been at for a long time. Now, they want the refs to quit their full time jobs, and become full time employees of the NFL. I would believe some of these refs are close to having enough time invested in their full time jobs, where in a couple of years, they would receive retirement, etc. I realize there are many employees who have had to take pay cuts, etc. where they work, because of the poor economy, etc. However, the NFL has NOT suffered at all from the economy.

Can not remember who said it yesterday on national tv, but whoever said that Goodell wants to break the union.

Steve Young ranted on the NFL breaking the union, it's the NFL that is being hypocritical and unreasonable. "Quit your day job but we're not gonna make it worth your while, do it for the love of the game".......

rationalfan
09-19-2012, 01:38 PM
Steve Young ranted on the NFL breaking the union, it's the NFL that is being hypocritical and unreasonable. "Quit your day job but we're not gonna make it worth your while, do it for the love of the game".......

steve young also, correctly, pointed out that until people stop paying money for the product the striking refs don't have much of a platform.
from peter king's si column on tuesday:
In essence, Young said it doesn't matter how much the public screams for the real officials to come back, because the public will watch the games regardless who is officiating them. And until you vote with your eyes and your fanness -- and stop watching the games, and stop logging on to NFL.com, and stop consuming all things NFL -- all of your angst over this won't matter.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/09/18/mail/index.html#ixzz26wTrzHrq

also, on the point of unions and the media; i've been working in the media for more than ten years, at three different locations and have never been asked to join a union.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-19-2012, 01:48 PM
As the storm over the spotty performance of the NFL's replacement officials continued to grow, the executive director of the NFL Referees Assn. sent out an open letter Tuesday detailing his group's position in the lockout, which started in June and has continued through the first two weeks of the regular season with no apparent end in sight.

Tim Millis states in his letter that the two major sticking points between the sides are salary and benefits. And while significant progress has been made on overall compensation, he says, the parties aren't close to agreeing on retirement benefits for officials.

"Every current NFL official was hired by the NFL with the promise of a defined-benefit pension package," Millis writes. "All of these officials and their families have made important life-planning decisions based on this benefit promise. The NFL now wants to break the promise by eliminating that benefit; instead, turning to an inferior defined-contribution plan. I call that plan inferior because the League’s offer would reduce their funding obligation for the plan by some 60%, and at the same time transfer long-term investment risk to the individuals (each official)."

He says that the NFLRA proposed what he calls "a fair and reasonable compromise," in which the current officials would keep the defined-benefit plan while any new hires would be enrolled in a defined-contribution pension plan.

rest - http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-nfl-officials-letter-20120918,0,3552882.story?track=rss

Cugel
09-19-2012, 01:49 PM
The thing that really sucks is that the season is so short, no one wants to miss any of it. I feel like the fans should protest, but I don't want to miss the games. I just wish there was a way dor peope to get rid of Goodell. I hate how he runs this league. Can the owners vote him out or something?

Why would the owners vote him out? He's doing exactly what they want!

NFL owners are a bunch of arrogant reactionary billionaires who just HATE unions and having to defer even slightly to working people.

They have to grit their teeth and allow the Player's Union to exist and agree to a CBA, but having had to endure that indignity of giving the players even the slightest say in how the league is run is intensely distasteful to them.

But, they remember the last time they tried to lock the players out and use scab players from arena leagues for 6 games and what a public relations disaster that was. So, they settled for perhaps 90% of what they wanted. (They have won every single dispute with the players, just not 100%).

And then came the referees dispute. They were DAMNED if they were going to give ONE INCH to those blasted referees! Just who do they think they are?

They'd love to fire every single ref and replace them all. And that's exactly what they're going to try and do.

Fans might not tolerate paying hundreds of dollars for season tickets to see Aaron Rogers play QB, and only to see a lockout and some scab replacement player you've never heard of named something like Billy Rottheimer running around out there. But, boycott the games on account of scab referees? Not going to happen.

And as long as people tune in and watch and go to games and buy jerseys and beer they don't give a damn who criticizes them. They are going to win.

And Goddell is doing exactly what they want done. Break and destroy the referee's union and make the refs crawl back and beg for their old jobs and lick the feet of the owners. Period.

And they will have to eventually.

So, if a few games get screwed up and the team that should win loses, well that's the breaks.

They need to teach these workers who has the power and all the money and who doesn't. Unless there's some kind of massive fan revolt and empty stadiums they don't have to care what anybody thinks or says.

And they flat don't.

The refs were a total flaming disaster last weekend. Everybody is talking about it. Except the league. They aren't budging an inch. And as far as they are concerned "what are you going to do about it? Ignore the football season?"

They are betting that people will just gripe and go about buying tickets, watching the games on TV and buying their gear, just like normal.

And they are probably right. :coffee:

Denver Native (Carol)
09-19-2012, 02:11 PM
Yesterday, one owner spoke out in regards to the replacement refs - he was not mentioned by name. If enough owners start getting upset, they are the ones who can end this, as they are the ones who pay the refs.

Nomad
09-19-2012, 06:31 PM
A lot of union love going on in here.:shocked: :lol:

Does anyone really have an offer sheet or actual document by the NFL to the referees or is everyone going by heresy? I never heard of the NFL wanting these guys to quit their reg jobs. But if the refs are going to ref games as a part time job, they deserve part time benefits, which is not very much.

OrangeHoof
09-19-2012, 07:48 PM
This is a unique problem for football. The NBA, NHL and MLB are full-time gigs but the NFL was always part-time yet as long as it is part-time, the league has less control (and less leverage) over their officials. There simply is not enough work to justify a full-time job and as long as the refs have other careers, there's a greater chance they can be compromised.

But one thing I've learned over the years about labor negotiations is about 90% of what the union says (even to union members) is bullshit and 70% of what management says is also bullshit. Their spokespeople will lie as instinctively as Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and the media will lap it all up as oracles of truth.

Nomad
09-19-2012, 10:35 PM
This is a unique problem for football. The NBA, NHL and MLB are full-time gigs but the NFL was always part-time yet as long as it is part-time, the league has less control (and less leverage) over their officials. There simply is not enough work to justify a full-time job and as long as the refs have other careers, there's a greater chance they can be compromised.

But one thing I've learned over the years about labor negotiations is about 90% of what the union says (even to union members) is bullshit and 70% of what management says is also bullshit. Their spokespeople will lie as instinctively as Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and the media will lap it all up as oracles of truth.


Unions always try to get more than they are worth and owners of businesses always want to pay the least they can. This is what I've learned being IBEW for 15 yrs now.

smith49
09-20-2012, 01:22 AM
I do not feel the refs demands are insanely unreasonable. Some of these refs have been reffing for a long time, and from the beginning, it was a part time job. They all have their own full time jobs, which I am sure some of them have been at for a long time. Now, they want the refs to quit their full time jobs, and become full time employees of the NFL. I would believe some of these refs are close to having enough time invested in their full time jobs, where in a couple of years, they would receive retirement, etc. I realize there are many employees who have had to take pay cuts, etc. where they work, because of the poor economy, etc. However, the NFL has NOT suffered at all from the economy.

Can not remember who said it yesterday on national tv, but whoever said that Goodell wants to break the union.

So insanely might be a bit strong. However, from what I've gathered, their demands are unreasonable. A starting ref makes around $80k. That's for 4 months of part time work mind you. More seasoned refs make well over six figures for the same amount of work.. Say what you want but I think that's a lot of $ for a part time job. Also, from what I've gathered, the nfl only wants to make a handful of the refs full time, not all of them. They want a few guys to be full time for player safety purposes and what not. The nfl is offering about an 11% salary increase also which takes a starting ref up closer the the $90k mark for part time work.

There is also the pension issue. The refs basically want a bigger pension package than they allready have. So to recap:
The refs want:
Bigger pension
Bigger salaries
No full timers

The nfl is offering:
11% increase in salary
The same pension they currently have
A few, maybe as many as ten, full timers

These are the things that I have found. Maybe my sources are wrong, but to me those demands are unreasonable. I know, nba and NHL and MLB refs make a ton more money. Well, all those organizations are full timers that ref many many more games on a yearly basis and don't have the luxury of another job.

Personally if I was a nfl ref and made close to 90k, IDE work my 4 months of the year and take the rest of the year off and hang out on a warm beach somewhere. Just sayin.

If I'm way off and have bad info here I apologize, but from everything I've read these are the issues at hand.

TXBRONC
09-20-2012, 08:49 AM
My goodness. Some of these people speak as if the regular officials never make mistakes. The regular officials might not make the dumb errors but they made just as many questionable and hard-to-justify calls as these guys are doing.

I remember some calls last year that just had me livid, even in games where I didn't care who won. Lamebrained idiot calls by union refs.

And mentioning Ed Hochuli, who is among the best in his profession, is proof of my point. The San Diego fans still have a grudge against Hochuli for that call in the Cutler comeback. Hochuli isn't a bad ref - he's one of the best as revealed in player polls.

The refs did not throw those three interceptions in the first quarter. They didn't fumble the ball on the fourth drive. The Broncos did that without their involvement and that's what lost the game. The Broncos lost their composure and started doing dumb things.

Was it an ugly game to watch - yes, but that was because the Broncos were ugly to watch. The ones blaming the refs are just scapegoating.

I haven't seen any posts that say that the regular officials don't make mistakes. They're human so they make mistakes like the rest of us but the quality we get from them is light years head of what we are seeing right now.

Charger fans can just go suck on a long one for I care because Hochuli's call didn't determine the out come of that game. Besides that Hochuli knew right away he had made a mistake but he change it because of the rules.

That said, as bad as the officiating was it didn't detemine the out come of the game. Poor play on our part did.

OrangeHoof
09-20-2012, 11:11 AM
That said, as bad as the officiating was it didn't detemine the out come of the game. Poor play on our part did.

That's what I'm saying. A lot of mad Bronco fans are taking out on the replacement refs their anger over three interceptions and a fumble in the first quarter which happened to take place while the refs had trouble getting their act together. But the Broncos lost because they played a sucky first half and they would have still lost with regular refs.

Ravage!!!
09-20-2012, 11:24 AM
I'm not blaming the refs for the game, but the game was HORRIBLE to watch. The refs were horrendous. They didn't know what they were doing, they spot the ball in wrong places after assessing the wrong yardage to a penalty. The flags stopped the tempo of the game, and if I was an Atlanta fan I would be pretty upset with how the refs stopped their "rhythm" with the confusion with the refs. They had to stop the game, and talk with some dude on the sidelines with a headset to figure out what should have been marked and where, and STILL ended up putting the ball in the wrong place. I don't care if it "made a difference" on the outcome. The ONLY time anyone can say that happens...ever... is if it's a call at the very end of hte game. But every call, or non-call, can make a huge difference in the outcome.

Example.. the DE for the Falcons SHOULD have been ejected... no questions asked... when he accidentally hit a ref in the face. That's a no-brainer. These refs don't have the confidence to kick a player. The refs call more PI penalties, and generally speaking...are on the offensive side line than the other (where they have the team/coach screaming in their ear).

The refs (as they are right now) are NOT professional, don't know what they are doing, slow down the game, and make it hard to watch.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-20-2012, 02:47 PM
So insanely might be a bit strong. However, from what I've gathered, their demands are unreasonable. A starting ref makes around $80k. That's for 4 months of part time work mind you. More seasoned refs make well over six figures for the same amount of work.. Say what you want but I think that's a lot of $ for a part time job. Also, from what I've gathered, the nfl only wants to make a handful of the refs full time, not all of them. They want a few guys to be full time for player safety purposes and what not. The nfl is offering about an 11% salary increase also which takes a starting ref up closer the the $90k mark for part time work.

There is also the pension issue. The refs basically want a bigger pension package than they allready have. So to recap:
The refs want:
Bigger pension
Bigger salaries
No full timers

The nfl is offering:
11% increase in salary
The same pension they currently have
A few, maybe as many as ten, full timers

These are the things that I have found. Maybe my sources are wrong, but to me those demands are unreasonable. I know, nba and NHL and MLB refs make a ton more money. Well, all those organizations are full timers that ref many many more games on a yearly basis and don't have the luxury of another job.

Personally if I was a nfl ref and made close to 90k, IDE work my 4 months of the year and take the rest of the year off and hang out on a warm beach somewhere. Just sayin.

If I'm way off and have bad info here I apologize, but from everything I've read these are the issues at hand.

Appears you have bad info on the pension plan - the existing refs are not looking for a bigger pension


But Scott Green, the referee who's head of the NFL Referees Association, says there's one proposal above all others that he and his colleagues can't manage to swallow: the league wants to freeze their long-running pension plans and switch them to less attractive 401(k)-style retirement plans.


Mike Arnold, the lawyer leading negotiations for the union, insists the referees were "all shocked" by the pension proposal, given the league's sound financial footing. He said the union simply wanted the same pay raises and benefit packages laid out in its 2006 contract. According to Green, referees earn between $4,000 and $8,000 per game, depending on experience.

Arnold argued that the league's 121 referees shouldn't lose their defined benefit plans just because workers elsewhere are losing theirs. The union has told the league it would accept a grandfather system in which current refs keep their current plans and new hires get 401(k)s, but the owners aren't biting. Arnold also said the refs don't merely take issue with the type of account they'd be switched to -- the league's retirement contributions would be trimmed significantly, according to Arnold's calculations.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/13/nfl-referee-lockout-pensions_n_1879049.html

The existing refs want to keep their pension plan the way it has been since the beginning, and new refs would be under the 401(k)s.

smith49
09-20-2012, 06:24 PM
So insanely might be a bit strong. However, from what I've gathered, their demands are unreasonable. A starting ref makes around $80k. That's for 4 months of part time work mind you. More seasoned refs make well over six figures for the same amount of work.. Say what you want but I think that's a lot of $ for a part time job. Also, from what I've gathered, the nfl only wants to make a handful of the refs full time, not all of them. They want a few guys to be full time for player safety purposes and what not. The nfl is offering about an 11% salary increase also which takes a starting ref up closer the the $90k mark for part time work.

There is also the pension issue. The refs basically want a bigger pension package than they allready have. So to recap:
The refs want:
Bigger pension
Bigger salaries
No full timers

The nfl is offering:
11% increase in salary
The same pension they currently have
A few, maybe as many as ten, full timers

These are the things that I have found. Maybe my sources are wrong, but to me those demands are unreasonable. I know, nba and NHL and MLB refs make a ton more money. Well, all those organizations are full timers that ref many many more games on a yearly basis and don't have the luxury of another job.

Personally if I was a nfl ref and made close to 90k, IDE work my 4 months of the year and take the rest of the year off and hang out on a warm beach somewhere. Just sayin.

If I'm way off and have bad info here I apologize, but from everything I've read these are the issues at hand.

Appears you have bad info on the pension plan - the existing refs are not looking for a bigger pension


But Scott Green, the referee who's head of the NFL Referees Association, says there's one proposal above all others that he and his colleagues can't manage to swallow: the league wants to freeze their long-running pension plans and switch them to less attractive 401(k)-style retirement plans.


Mike Arnold, the lawyer leading negotiations for the union, insists the referees were "all shocked" by the pension proposal, given the league's sound financial footing. He said the union simply wanted the same pay raises and benefit packages laid out in its 2006 contract. According to Green, referees earn between $4,000 and $8,000 per game, depending on experience.

Arnold argued that the league's 121 referees shouldn't lose their defined benefit plans just because workers elsewhere are losing theirs. The union has told the league it would accept a grandfather system in which current refs keep their current plans and new hires get 401(k)s, but the owners aren't biting. Arnold also said the refs don't merely take issue with the type of account they'd be switched to -- the league's retirement contributions would be trimmed significantly, according to Arnold's calculations.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/13/nfl-referee-lockout-pensions_n_1879049.html

The existing refs want to keep their pension plan the way it has been since the beginning, and new refs would be under the 401(k)s.

I stand corrected. Thanks Carol.