Is winning with Manning "fair"?

[Tned]

Ok, I know it seems like a strange, and possibly dumb, question, but I was thinking about this earlier today, long before the game.

I know in the world of free agency that signing good, and sometimes even great, free agents is part of the game -- as is losing good or great free agents. That said, typically you have to get a Peyton Manning after suffering through a 1 or 2 loss season, and you "earn" this type of great player by being the worst team in the league.

Many think that Manning is the greatest player to ever be signed as a free agent. Hence the question about it being fair, or asked another way, does it take away from the wins that will come with him under center.

Then again, this may just be the copious amount of booze I've had tonight talking.

[Dzone]

Totally fair.

[Poet]

Of course it is fair. He was released by his former team who dubbed him unfit to be in their future. He was courted by several teams and made a decision that was best for him.

As good as Manning was, he didn't catch the passes he threw. He didn't block for himself, he didn't run the ball, he didn't tackle anyone, plug a hole in the line, sack Roethlisberger etc etc etc.

To me it's like asking if it was fair to rip off the Raiders in a trade. If you have the assets to do such a thing and you go forth with it, good for you. Peyton Manning is great, in my eyes he's the best quarterback to ever play the game. That said, he still needed help in Indy and he needs help now. It's not like you guys signed a cheat code that lets you win every game and guarantees you a Lombardi.

Denver crafted a great environment for Manning to play. This was done by Elway, who has proved to be one of the better men in the front office. So did the Titans, they offered him a competitive team and a job for life. The Seahawks would have given him the moon. To the victor goes the spoils, and in the NFL the victor is almost always the one who deserves it the most.

Enjoy your winnings.

[pegcage]

I know you wrote that tongue in cheek, but some people will take you seriously. Was it fair for the Colts to draft him in 1998 and have all those winning years with the best qb ever to wear a jersey? Or was it fair for Elway to refuse to play for Baltimore and go with Denver? LOL.:D

[Chef Zambini]

was it fair the last time the colts gave us a QB ?

[Chef Zambini]

was it fair the demolition we endured undr JMCD ?

[sneakers]

Is video taping the other teams practices to steal their defensive calls and then winning 3 superbowls fair?

[NEPatriots]

Is video taping the other teams practices to steal their defensive calls and then winning 3 superbowls fair?

I don't know, is paying the NFL fines for operating over salary cap to essentially buy John Elway two Superbowl rings with two illegal football teams fair?

[MileHighCrew]

I think you were drunk

[Jsteve01]

Is video taping the other teams practices to steal their defensive calls and then winning 3 superbowls fair?

I don't know, is paying the NFL fines for operating over salary cap to essentially buy John Elway two Superbowl rings with two illegal football teams fair?a common response but a terrible anaalogy. It was the early years of free agency and what one Side viewed as masterful cap manipulation the league viewed as as wrong so the broncos addressed it. No one has ever attempted to paint the broncos as deceitfully manipulating the rules other than hacks and fans. Spygate was undebateably cheating.

[camdisco24]

It's 100% fair. Just like they say in the business world: It's nothing personal, it's just business.

Signing Peyton Manning was a no-brainer business move for the Broncos, no matter who we had to lose to get him.

Based on what I read, it was just as big a fight to get him on our side as it is in the NFL trenches, so I think John Elways earned PFM anyways!

[Fullback32]

I don't know, is paying the NFL fines for operating over salary cap to essentially buy John Elway two Superbowl rings with two illegal football teams fair?

Don't you have a Patriots forum to haunt?

[Buff]

No, I think we should forfeit our win and ask the Jets for Tebow back because it would be the right thing to do.

[NightTrainLayne]

I can remember any time I played against the Colts in Madden all these years that I thought his advantage was unfair.

But that was Madden. .. . Definitely fair. :D Especially now that he's on our side.

[Softskull]

I've always thought that free agency has soiled the game to a certain extent. I loved "back in the day" having mostly the same rotation of player that would be updated by father time and the draft. But that's not the game anymore.

Tear 'em up Peyton.

[weazel]

Ok, I know it seems like a strange, and possibly dumb, question, but I was thinking about this earlier today, long before the game.

I know in the world of free agency that signing good, and sometimes even great, free agents is part of the game -- as is losing good or great free agents. That said, typically you have to get a Peyton Manning after suffering through a 1 or 2 loss season, and you "earn" this type of great player by being the worst team in the league.

Many think that Manning is the greatest player to ever be signed as a free agent. Hence the question about it being fair, or asked another way, does it take away from the wins that will come with him under center.

Then again, this may just be the copious amount of booze I've had tonight talking.

go have another drink! lol

I guess its just as fair as having to get a scrub like Hanie in free agency... Teams make offers and players accept the one they want, whats not fair about it?

[Poet]

I've always thought that free agency has soiled the game to a certain extent. I loved "back in the day" having mostly the same rotation of player that would be updated by father time and the draft. But that's not the game anymore.

Tear 'em up Peyton.

Which was when coaching mattered the least. Shit, you could get such a strong team that they could carry Terry Bradshaw to the Super Bowl four times. Back in those days drafting was even less of a science so building a team was ridiculously harder than it is now, but when you got it right, you got it right.

Sorry, let those days sit in history.

[rationalfan]

as fair as winning with tebow. after all, if you believed the word of some of tebow's followers, god was guiding the broncos to victory.

[Joel]

Ok, I know it seems like a strange, and possibly dumb, question, but I was thinking about this earlier today, long before the game.

I know in the world of free agency that signing good, and sometimes even great, free agents is part of the game -- as is losing good or great free agents. That said, typically you have to get a Peyton Manning after suffering through a 1 or 2 loss season, and you "earn" this type of great player by being the worst team in the league.

Many think that Manning is the greatest player to ever be signed as a free agent. Hence the question about it being fair, or asked another way, does it take away from the wins that will come with him under center.

Then again, this may just be the copious amount of booze I've had tonight talking.
Was drafting him fair? I think we paid our dues in losses under McDumbass, particularly since we'll only have Manning for a couple years instead of the decade the Colts enjoyed him. Considering he accounts for 1/6th of the money we have to pay our whole roster, money that could be spent on three or four other elite FAs we need, we're still making a significant sacrifice to get him. Yeah, it's fair.

[Poet]

You can't get three or four elite FA's with that money. There's rarely two truly elite players on the FA market. The Broncos didn't sacrifice anything when they signed Peyton Manning. Peyton Manning is Peyton Manning.

[BroncoWave]

You can't get three or four elite FA's with that money. There's rarely two truly elite players on the FA market. The Broncos didn't sacrifice anything when they signed Peyton Manning. Peyton Manning is Peyton Manning.

Joel has been spouting that idiotic drivel all off-season and still into the season. Manning does more for the Broncos than the combination of any other 3-4 free agents on the market this past offseason would have.

[Canmore]

You can't get three or four elite FA's with that money. There's rarely two truly elite players on the FA market. The Broncos didn't sacrifice anything when they signed Peyton Manning. Peyton Manning is Peyton Manning.


Peyton Manning looked like... Peyton Manning. He did to me during pre-season and he certainly did against the Steelers. I think we spent our money reasonably. We still have money in the kitty. Our cap management looks so much better than in years past.

[Joel]

You can't get three or four elite FA's with that money. There's rarely two truly elite players on the FA market. The Broncos didn't sacrifice anything when they signed Peyton Manning. Peyton Manning is Peyton Manning.
You can't get an elite FA for $7 million? Because 3X7=21. You can get some pretty good ones for $5 million, too, and 4X5=20. That said, if we really have around $12 million left we can still add a couple, and hopefully will. At this stage of the game, however, we may be better served to wait until the off season, when there will be more high quality FAs on the market, and we'll have a better idea which of our young players are stars-in-the-making, as well as which of our aging vets are fading/retiring. This time last year we didn't know we'd need Mike Adams now, nor how far we could go with last years talent.

[BroncoWave]

You can't get an elite FA for $7 million? Because 3X7=21. You can get some pretty good ones for $5 million, too, and 4X5=20. That said, if we really have around $12 million left we can still add a couple, and hopefully will. At this stage of the game, however, we may be better served to wait until the off season, when there will be more high quality FAs on the market, and we'll have a better idea which of our young players are stars-in-the-making, as well as which of our aging vets are fading/retiring. This time last year we didn't know we'd need Mike Adams now, nor how far we could go with last years talent.

Name a combination of 3-4 FAs who were available this offseason who would have been a better addition to the Broncos than Manning.

[Joel]

Name a combination of 3-4 FAs who were available this offseason who would have been a better addition to the Broncos than Manning.
I did not follow free agency close enough to answer that question. Lame, I know, but I can't provide data I don't have.

[MOtorboat]

I did not follow free agency close enough to answer that question. Lame, I know, but I can't provide data I don't have.

I'll help you out.

The data doesn't exist.

[chazoe60]

Name a combination of 3-4 FAs who were available this offseason who would have been a better addition to the Broncos than Manning.

Kyle Orton, Terrell Owens, and Plaxico Burress. <------Championship

[DenBronx]

It's beyond fair. Every team in the NFL had the same choices we did. In the end Manning felt his best chance of winning was here in Denver. I know we gave him a boat load of cash (well worth it) but really our team in on the rise and I think Manning saw that. We went to the playoffs on mostly a running game. We have an excellent owner, a VP who wants to win now in Elway, HC John Fox who has won even with average QBs, a very loyal fanbase, a great stadium, history of greatness, a solid defense, #2 ranked run game and a very explosive WR in Thomas with a solid possesion WR in Decker. Don't forget we also let Manning bring a few of his guys. In the end I think he fell in love with Denver and just felt comfortable about it. He looks great in a Broncos uniform......heck he traded the horse shoe for the whole damn horse!!!

[Joel]

I'll help you out.

The data doesn't exist.
You're going to sit there and tell me Peyton Manning was the only FA star available after last season? Like I say, I can't dispute that without the data, but it seems dubious.

[nevcraw]

I think the terrible QB play we had to endure from the likes of Griese & Orton (save a few games), the debacle that was McD., TD getting hurt in his prime, The death of 3 players, and all that is good about football makes this more than fair.. caution though it's one game in.. It is still a wait and see if we end up winning an SB.

[Simple Jaded]

I did not follow free agency close enough to answer that question. Lame, I know, but I can't provide data I don't have.

Do you really need to follow free agency to know the answer to that? I'm willing to bet that any scenario that doesn't include replacing the leagues worst passer would result in your resounding approval.......

[MOtorboat]

You're going to sit there and tell me Peyton Manning was the only FA star available after last season? Like I say, I can't dispute that without the data, but it seems dubious.

Yeah.

[BroncoWave]

Yeah.

The only other one I can think of is Mario Williams who Denver had no need for.

[MOtorboat]

The only other one I can think of is Mario Williams who Denver had no need for.

Possibly Curtis Lofton.

But it was painfully obvious he wasn't leaving the Gulf Coast when he signed on to be either the backup in New Orleans, or move to WLB. (He signed before bountygate I believe).

[Simple Jaded]

Carl Nicks, Ben Grubbs, Mario Williams, Eric Winston.

But the question wasn't about how many star players were available, I believe it was BTB who asked if there were any combination of players that would have helped the Broncos as much as Manning. The answer to that riddle is undeniably no. The Broncos had huge needs at the most important position in all sports and not only did Manning provide a massive upgrade there but he also provided the exit strategy (thanks Zam) the Broncos desperately needed to get out from under Tebowmania. The very fact that they needed a QB the stature of Manning to be able to go in another direction shows you how ridiculous Tebowmania was.

I still get a chuckle out of the notion that Denver should have spent the money on other FA's, nobody wants any part of this team before Manning signs here. The arguement that FA's go to the team offering the most money is just complete bullshit, especially if you're talking star players; if they're stars they're getting competitive offers from everybody with the need and the cap space and if that's the case who are you gonna sign with? All things being equal you're not signing with the team running a high school offense.......

[Joel]

From the list provided, yeah, I think Grubbs, Winston and Lofton would have made us a better team than Manning does. I know they would make us a better 2014 team than Manning will. Gees, just thinking about having a stud G and a stud RT who would let us move Franklin to G where he belongs, plus a legit Mike who would plug the gaping whole in the middle of our D, and possibly having them until the end of the decade? Yeah, I'd trade two years of Manning trying to drag a .500 team to the SB for that, especially since there'd probably be money left to sign other people, maybe find a legit QB a little cheaper and younger than Manning to complete the puzzle. Or draft and develop one; as solid as that team would be, we'd have time, though Champ and McGahee probably wouldn't.

[MOtorboat]

From the list provided, yeah, I think Grubbs, Winston and Lofton would have made us a better team than Manning does. I know they would make us a better 2014 team than Manning will.

See, here's the thing about free agency that so many people just can't seem to get through their minds.

Lofton wasn't coming north. Period. End of discussion. He took a backup/moving positions role to go to New Orleans (before bountygate).

Ben Grubbs wasn't pursued by anyone, because he's returning home, where he wants to be.

Manning WANTED to be in Denver. Therefore, the opining for other free agents (who clearly don't have the same impact as a quarterback) is just SO useless.

[Simple Jaded]

From the list provided, yeah, I think Grubbs, Winston and Lofton would have made us a better team than Manning does. I know they would make us a better 2014 team than Manning will. Gees, just thinking about having a stud G and a stud RT who would let us move Franklin to G where he belongs, plus a legit Mike who would plug the gaping whole in the middle of our D, and possibly having them until the end of the decade? Yeah, I'd trade two years of Manning trying to drag a .500 team to the SB for that, especially since there'd probably be money left to sign other people, maybe find a legit QB a little cheaper and younger than Manning to complete the puzzle. Or draft and develop one; as solid as that team would be, we'd have time, though Champ and McGahee probably wouldn't.

How do they make them better than Manning? To my knowledge none of those players play QB. Besides, the Broncos still had the money to sign those players after signing Manning, and they chose not to.......

[Simple Jaded]

"maybe find a legit QB a little cheaper and younger than Manning"

This particular quote might lead people to believe that you'd prefer just about any QB to Peyton Manning, we all know that isn't the case because it's obvious that you prefer Tebow to just about any QB. Either way it's thoroughly ridiculous.......

[Poet]

Carl Nicks, Ben Grubbs, Mario Williams, Eric Winston.

But the question wasn't about how many star players were available, I believe it was BTB who asked if there were any combination of players that would have helped the Broncos as much as Manning. The answer to that riddle is undeniably no. The Broncos had huge needs at the most important position in all sports and not only did Manning provide a massive upgrade there but he also provided the exit strategy (thanks Zam) the Broncos desperately needed to get out from under Tebowmania. The very fact that they needed a QB the stature of Manning to be able to go in another direction shows you how ridiculous Tebowmania was.

I still get a chuckle out of the notion that Denver should have spent the money on other FA's, nobody wants any part of this team before Manning signs here. The arguement that FA's go to the team offering the most money is just complete bullshit, especially if you're talking star players; if they're stars they're getting competitive offers from everybody with the need and the cap space and if that's the case who are you gonna sign with? All things being equal you're not signing with the team running a high school offense.......

Here's the other thing, signing two guards does not really help your offense when they both play the same position. So what, overpay one of them and hope that they are an excellent guard or center? That's AWFUL! If a team did that they would be mocked, the chance of success is low.

Could you sign one of the guards, Vincent Jackson and Winston or Williams? No.

Joel, your team just signed the best free agent ever. Yes, even over Reggie White. So let's say that you sign the two guards and one of them makes an all-pro level center. So you have a great left guard, a great center and a great left tackle. They did that in Cleveland, Steinbach was a beast for half a decade there. Joe Thomas is a stud and their center, whose name escapes me right now is a beast.

Can those ******s catch a pass or run the ball? Can they make up for an awful receiving corp? No. An offensive line is a great building block and it's needed, I will never argue that, but you have to have players to go with it. So you get that line and assume Tebow is your QB. Denver goes from a Super Bowl contender with Manning to a wild card contender.

His neck is fine. He is no more likely to break his neck than Tom Brady. Once the really smart guys with medical degrees from the best schools in the world who have some of the best resumes in the world tell me that, I believe them. You know why? Because they're the friggen Peyton Mannings, Reggie Whites and Jerry Rices of their field.

Peyton Manning instantly makes Thomas better. Peyton Manning made so many average guys look great. Thomas will end this year at 1300 yards and 12 TD's barring injury. He's going to make Decker a stud. His impact on them right NOW will have made them better seven seasons from them now.

Brock Osweiller will be better just by fricken osmosis. He is Peyton Manning. He is the best pure quarterback the league has ever seen. He carried strong offensive teams into the playoffs with historically bad defenses. His front offense couldn't even craft him a line that could dream of standing up to a real nose tackle in the playoffs and he was STILL a beast.

Denver just signed a top three quarterback of all-time. He still is one of the best players in the league. Just by standing on the field and waving his hands he puts fear into the defense that he is facing. He is smarter than their defensive coordinator and their offensive coordinator is honored to watch a QB who is more qualified for BOTH of their jobs.

He brings you leadership that you haven't had since Elway. He brings HIS offense to YOUR team and makes YOUR team better by making it HIS team.

Peyton Manning is a pseudo viking. He goes where the **** he pleases, he rapes defenses and the team lucky enough to have him acquires victories.

You make the argument that more free agents now would have helped your team more in 2014. You're wrong. Assume that he retires that year, you don't have his huge contract. That means that the awful load of money that you gave him, which is worth soooo much to you, is now free. Elway now has had two additional seasons to form a real plan for a QB. What that plan is I have no idea, I mean I wouldn't worry about it since PEYTON ******* MANNING IS THE QB OF MY TEAM AND RUNS AROUND BIG DICK STYLE ON THE OPPOSITION, BUT YA KNOW!

So now you have all that money, your plan in place and Von Miller, Decker and Thomas are in their prime. RB's are a dime a dozen and you have enough time to fix your line.

Elway just pulled off one of the best front office jobs this side of the Ricky Williams and Herschell Walker deals.


How the **** can you not be ecstatic for Peyton Manning? I'd be ecstatic for a cheeseburger right now.

[NorCalBronco7]

Its the booze :)

[Ravage!!!]

Damn. King just tore this thread up!!!! This thread is looking for some lube, because King just TOOK it without asking!

[WARHORSE]

Fair, smair. The battlefield, rules and regs are the same for every team. Signing top notch FAgents doesnt guarantee wins. Ask Washington and Washington North(Philly).


We won. They lost.


ALL is fair in love and war and football.

[FlyByU]

Sorry still chuckling remembering watching PFM run our offense. I can't help it every time I think about it a huge smile comes over my face and I quietly chuckle.

If this was a video game then having Manning on your team would be a cheat LOL...

[Traveler]

From the list provided, yeah, I think Grubbs, Winston and Lofton would have made us a better team than Manning does. I know they would make us a better 2014 team than Manning will. Gees, just thinking about having a stud G and a stud RT who would let us move Franklin to G where he belongs, plus a legit Mike who would plug the gaping whole in the middle of our D, and possibly having them until the end of the decade? Yeah, I'd trade two years of Manning trying to drag a .500 team to the SB for that, especially since there'd probably be money left to sign other people, maybe find a legit QB a little cheaper and younger than Manning to complete the puzzle. Or draft and develop one; as solid as that team would be, we'd have time, though Champ and McGahee probably wouldn't.

All I can say is WOW! Really Joel?

No need for me to add more than King87, other than the acquisitions the front office made this offseason -excluding Manning- makes moot your point of Manning dragging a .500 to a SB. We now have the younger, cheaper QBOTF, still have Manning, and filled major needs at CB and DE/DT so Manning doesn't have to shoulder the burden of carrying this team by himself. Elway couldn't do it when he played. But I digress.

My question to you is who did you have in mind as the legit QB Denver should have pursued?

Lastly, the acquisition of the players you mention above would have been nice, but this team already tried that experiment during the Shanahan years. I much prefer the plan Elway & Company have. Spend wisely in FA and keep building through the draft with the understaning you can't fix all this teams woes in a year or two.

[Simple Jaded]

Here's the other thing, signing two guards does not really help your offense when they both play the same position. So what, overpay one of them and hope that they are an excellent guard or center? That's AWFUL! If a team did that they would be mocked, the chance of success is low.

Could you sign one of the guards, Vincent Jackson and Winston or Williams? No.

Joel, your team just signed the best free agent ever. Yes, even over Reggie White. So let's say that you sign the two guards and one of them makes an all-pro level center. So you have a great left guard, a great center and a great left tackle. They did that in Cleveland, Steinbach was a beast for half a decade there. Joe Thomas is a stud and their center, whose name escapes me right now is a beast.

Can those ******s catch a pass or run the ball? Can they make up for an awful receiving corp? No. An offensive line is a great building block and it's needed, I will never argue that, but you have to have players to go with it. So you get that line and assume Tebow is your QB. Denver goes from a Super Bowl contender with Manning to a wild card contender.

His neck is fine. He is no more likely to break his neck than Tom Brady. Once the really smart guys with medical degrees from the best schools in the world who have some of the best resumes in the world tell me that, I believe them. You know why? Because they're the friggen Peyton Mannings, Reggie Whites and Jerry Rices of their field.

Peyton Manning instantly makes Thomas better. Peyton Manning made so many average guys look great. Thomas will end this year at 1300 yards and 12 TD's barring injury. He's going to make Decker a stud. His impact on them right NOW will have made them better seven seasons from them now.

Brock Osweiller will be better just by fricken osmosis. He is Peyton Manning. He is the best pure quarterback the league has ever seen. He carried strong offensive teams into the playoffs with historically bad defenses. His front offense couldn't even craft him a line that could dream of standing up to a real nose tackle in the playoffs and he was STILL a beast.

Denver just signed a top three quarterback of all-time. He still is one of the best players in the league. Just by standing on the field and waving his hands he puts fear into the defense that he is facing. He is smarter than their defensive coordinator and their offensive coordinator is honored to watch a QB who is more qualified for BOTH of their jobs.

He brings you leadership that you haven't had since Elway. He brings HIS offense to YOUR team and makes YOUR team better by making it HIS team.

Peyton Manning is a pseudo viking. He goes where the **** he pleases, he rapes defenses and the team lucky enough to have him acquires victories.

You make the argument that more free agents now would have helped your team more in 2014. You're wrong. Assume that he retires that year, you don't have his huge contract. That means that the awful load of money that you gave him, which is worth soooo much to you, is now free. Elway now has had two additional seasons to form a real plan for a QB. What that plan is I have no idea, I mean I wouldn't worry about it since PEYTON ******* MANNING IS THE QB OF MY TEAM AND RUNS AROUND BIG DICK STYLE ON THE OPPOSITION, BUT YA KNOW!

So now you have all that money, your plan in place and Von Miller, Decker and Thomas are in their prime. RB's are a dime a dozen and you have enough time to fix your line.

Elway just pulled off one of the best front office jobs this side of the Ricky Williams and Herschell Walker deals.


How the **** can you not be ecstatic for Peyton Manning? I'd be ecstatic for a cheeseburger right now.
Ya know if you had said those Dr's were the Tim Tebow of their field you might have made a dent.......