Moreno now listed as number two running back and Dreessen #1 TE for week 1

[Tned]

Moreno's now listed as the backup running back and Dreesen as the number one TE:

http:///www.broncosforums.com/downloads/depth_chart_sep3_12.JPG

http:///www.broncosforums.com/downloads/depth_chart_def_sep3_12.JPG

http:///www.broncosforums.com/downloads/depth_chart_spec_sep3_12.JPG

[chazoe60]

Not surprised really. I think Knowshonn will be the change of pace type guy. I predict if Willis got hurt Ball would actually take his place and Knowshonn's job wouldn't really change. Just my opinion.

[shank]

knowshon has been running hard this preseason. i still side with u29, he's a good back and you're all dicks. ball will be #4 week 2 if ronnie gets some touches.

[MOtorboat]

Not surprised. Moreno is a good back.

More surprised that Bannan is running first team and Vickerson is not. And that Moore continues to be first team and Carter is not.

[chazoe60]

Not surprised. Moreno is a good back.

More surprised that Bannan is running first team and Vickerson is not. And that Moore continues to be first team and Carter is not.

Yeah, I really hope Carter gets to 100% soon so he can replace Moore. Carter IMHO is much better than Moore.

[dogfish]

in other news, peyton f'n manning is still first string. . .

[Superchop 7]

The guy I have seen running in the pre season looked very solid.

I think he is going to have a good year.

The change I see is attitude, he is out to prove to himself that he belongs.

When talent meshes with attitude......good things happen.

[Superchop 7]

Moore is another case of talent not meeting attitude.

He is out there cruising.....hoping someone else makes the play.

When he finally understands that its his job to make the play.....that we are all sick and tired of him being 3 yards away from the action.....he will improve.

Its all between the ears son.

[Softskull]

I called it when we first grabbed Peyton that this type of offense would be perfect for Moreno. Hope the best for him and our best beloved this season.

I wonder if he's dished his "SAUCED" license plate. That would be a real sign of growth.

[OrangeHoof]

So what happens if Prater gets hurt and Colquitt has to hold for himself? Or will he dropkick?

[topscribe]

So what happens if Prater gets hurt and Colquitt has to hold for himself? Or will he dropkick?
Prater talked about that in a recent interview. Colquitt can kick FGs, and Prater
can punt. Neither can do as well as the other in the other's job, but they can
do it. Not that this is the way it would take place, but it's possible.
.

[DenBronx]

Well, I do own a Moreno jersey....guess I'll be able to wear it sometime this year.

I think Moreno will shine in a Manning led offense. He's our best pass catching back and I think he does well on the outside. Gives McGahee a breather and lets Moreno do the other things. I'm not a fan of Lance Balls at all...

[topscribe]

Well, I do own a Moreno jersey....guess I'll be able to wear it sometime this year.

I think Moreno will shine in a Manning led offense. He's our best pass catching back and I think he does well on the outside. Gives McGahee a breather and lets Moreno do the other things. I'm not a fan of Lance Balls at all...
Shoot, I still wear my Plummer and Orton jerseys, and my Rich Jackson jersey.

No one's going to tell me not to wear them . . .
.

[Hawgdriver]

This is the last chance cafe for Moreno. If he has any grit, he'll validate and let loose with the talent God gave him. Which is plenty, we know.

[Simple Jaded]

The talent God forgot to give Moreno; speed, vision, balance, power and durability. Other than that he's a natural.......

[ShaneFalco]

Ne1 see moreno lose his shoe in preseason vs.cardinals

[Hawgdriver]

You are overstating it. He's obviously a talented runner, any fool with two eyes can witness. But I get it. Moreno hasn't proven dik, hasn't established a body of work.

We'll see. I just hope we don't see the same thing we've always seen.

[bcbronc]

in other news, peyton f'n manning is still first string. . .

Only cuz Os is a bust.

Moreno just needs to stay healthy. If he can, he'll convert most of the haters. If he can't, well he's probably never going to.

[DenBronx]

Moreno just needs to stay healthy. If he can, he'll convert most of the haters. If he can't, well he's probably never going to.

Way to state the obvious, John Madden. :)

[Simple Jaded]

You are overstating it. He's obviously a talented runner, any fool with two eyes can witness. But I get it. Moreno hasn't proven dik, hasn't established a body of work.

We'll see. I just hope we don't see the same thing we've always seen.Name one outstanding.......nay.......name one above average skill he possesses.......

[Northman]

You are overstating it. He's obviously a talented runner, any fool with two eyes can witness. But I get it. Moreno hasn't proven dik, hasn't established a body of work.

We'll see. I just hope we don't see the same thing we've always seen.

^This

[UnderArmour]

Not really a surprise. This guy opened last year as our #1 before he lost his job because of injury to Willis. Then when he got his next shot against KC, he got hurt again. And before that, McDaniels was obsessed with 3rd down running backs and keeping between the tackles guys on the sidelines. We really haven't had the chance to see what Knowshon can do because of this bizarre set of circumstances. I'm really hoping the coaches moved him back up because he realized that he cannot take practice lightly anymore. Moreno will definitely start games for us at some point this year because McGahee just is not going to hold up. He definitely doesn't have the breakaway speed you want from a RB, but there is a reason he went #12 in the draft. Here's hoping this is the year for him (and Ayers).

[Northman]

Bwhahahahahahahaahahahahaa

[Dzone]

Alphonso Smith is a free agent and Ayers and Moreno are not starters. ******* brilliant

[TXBRONC]

Not really a surprise. This guy opened last year as our #1 before he lost his job because of injury to Willis. Then when he got his next shot against KC, he got hurt again. And before that, McDaniels was obsessed with 3rd down running backs and keeping between the tackles guys on the sidelines. We really haven't had the chance to see what Knowshon can do because of this bizarre set of circumstances. I'm really hoping the coaches moved him back up because he realized that he cannot take practice lightly anymore. Moreno will definitely start games for us at some point this year because McGahee just is not going to hold up. He definitely doesn't have the breakaway speed you want from a RB, but there is a reason he went #12 in the draft. Here's hoping this is the year for him (and Ayers).

IIRC McGahee beat out Moreno in camp last year so even going into the K.C. game he was the number two back.

[Buff]

knowshon has been running hard this preseason. i still side with u29, he's a good back and you're all dicks. ball will be #4 week 2 if ronnie gets some touches.

Moreno sucks and you and ur29 are homers for thinking otherwise. He had a couple nice preseason touches, but that doesn't change the fact that he was slow BEFORE he tore his ACL and is not even a year removed from the injury.

He will disappoint again this year, especially now that expectations have gone up.

[shank]

Moreno sucks and you and ur29 are homers for thinking otherwise. He had a couple nice preseason touches, but that doesn't change the fact that he was slow BEFORE he tore his ACL and is not even a year removed from the injury.

He will disappoint again this year, especially now that expectations have gone up.
he doesn't suck. he's a quality rotational back. is that what you want out of a 1st round pick? no, not really, but does he suck? no, he doesn't.

[Buff]

he doesn't suck. he's a quality rotational back. is that what you want out of a 1st round pick? no, not really, but does he suck? no, he doesn't.

He DOES suck. He would suck for a 6th round pick. He does not run the ball effectively. The only time he is marginally effective is as a pass catcher. He is literally a below average RB with a subpar skill set and I wish we would have given his roster spot to Jeremiah Johnson.

[Buff]

I'll add this caveat - he does look better this preseason than at any other time in his career. So maybe something really did "click" for him in the offseason - but I tend to think he will revert back to same ol' Moreno, only with a worse knee, this season.

[MOtorboat]

He DOES suck. He would suck for a 6th round pick. He does not run the ball effectively. The only time he is marginally effective is as a pass catcher. He is literally a below average RB with a subpar skill set and I wish we would have given his roster spot to Jeremiah Johnson.

Come on...Jeremiah Johnson?

2500 yards and 18 touchdowns, or 139 yards and 0 touchdowns?

This isn't even close...

[slim]

He is the second best back on the roster, so it kind of makes sense.

[Ravage!!!]

I'm not sure he doesn't just flat out suck. I haven't seen anything from him that would say otherwise. EVERY back in the NFL could have done as well as Moreno has, thus far, in his NFL career. Honestly, he's shown nothing... nothing..tht would put him above any other back that would be given as many opportunities as he has.

[slim]

Lol

[Buff]

Come on...Jeremiah Johnson?

2500 yards and 18 touchdowns, or 139 yards and 0 touchdowns?

This isn't even close...

Speed and potential or no speed and very limited potential? You're right, it's not close.

[OrangeHoof]

Prater talked about that in a recent interview. Colquitt can kick FGs, and Prater
can punt. Neither can do as well as the other in the other's job, but they can
do it. Not that this is the way it would take place, but it's possible.

You missed my question. Colquitt is listed as the holder for Prater but Colquitt is also listed as the backup for Prater. Unless they've successfully cloned Colquitt (and, if so, why are they wasting resources cloning Colquitt when they should clone Peyton, Champ and Von), he can not hold for his own field goal attempts.

Maybe Prater is the back-up holder but then, again, what happens if Colquitt can't play?

[Nomad]

GO Moreno and Dreessen!

[slim]

I'm not sure he doesn't just flat out suck. I haven't seen anything from him that would say otherwise. EVERY back in the NFL could have done as well as Moreno has, thus far, in his NFL career. Honestly, he's shown nothing... nothing..tht would put him above any other back that would be given as many opportunities as he has.


Well, he has averaged 4.1 yards per carry in his three-year career. He also has 18 career TDs (Buff, that is an average of 6 per year).

Not what you want out of 1st round pick, but still good enough to be a quality back-up.

[MOtorboat]

You missed my question. Colquitt is listed as the holder for Prater but Colquitt is also listed as the backup for Prater. Unless they've successfully cloned Colquitt (and, if so, why are they wasting resources cloning Colquitt when they should clone Peyton, Champ and Von), he can not hold for his own field goal attempts.

Maybe Prater is the back-up holder but then, again, what happens if Colquitt can't play?

Call me crazy, but I'm assuming they have a plan for that.

:whoknows:

For example, I believe Wes Welker is the emergency holder for the Patriots. Maybe Hanie is the emergency holder. It's really probably not an issue at all.

[Ravage!!!]

Well, he has averaged 4.1 yards per carry in his three-year career. He also has 18 career TDs (Buff, that is an average of 6 per year).

Not what you want out of 1st round pick, but still good enough to be a quality back-up.

Possibly so. But what I'm saying is given the SAME opportunities (runs on the goal line and such)... I'm not sure there aren't MOST RBs tht could do as much as Moreno has. He doesn't have good vision, has poor speed, and hasn't shown to make any "big" runs (probably because of his lack of speed). I'm just saying that all backs in the NFL are good enough to be there, but I haven't seen anything of Moreno to make me believe that he's any better than anyone else. I'm sure he could do ok as a back-up, but he's not someone I would say we "have to keep." Such as a Sproles should have been for San Diego.

[BroncoNut]

Ne1 see moreno lose his shoe in preseason vs.cardinals

I did, but he's got to do that more often and with some consistency for me to be really sold

[Ravage!!!]

Call me crazy, but I'm assuming they have a plan for that.

:whoknows:

For example, I believe Wes Welker is the emergency holder for the Patriots. Maybe Hanie is the emergency holder. It's really probably not an issue at all.

Hanie would be about as good of a guess as I would have. Makes the most sense.

[vandammage13]

knowshon has been running hard this preseason. i still side with u29, he's a good back and you're all dicks. ball will be #4 week 2 if ronnie gets some touches.

As long as he can stay healthy, he's as good a #2 RB as anyone else in the league IMO.

He has the ability, its just that he's built out of glass.

[Nomad]

I did, but he's got to do that more often and with some consistency for me to be really sold

If he has a good season.....you'll buy his jersey.

[Northman]

Hopefully he wont fall off anymore stationary bikes.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ouYzUskTrnY/TopvEQO0WbI/AAAAAAAAB_I/8A6p2PeqPks/s1600/Picture%2B1.png

[TXBRONC]

Hopefully he wont fall off anymore stationary bikes.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ouYzUskTrnY/TopvEQO0WbI/AAAAAAAAB_I/8A6p2PeqPks/s1600/Picture%2B1.png

:lol:

[Northman]

For what its worth, how is it that Peyton Hillis sucks but Knowshon doesnt? Looking at their numbers the first 3 seasons Hillis was actually more productive with less carries and he was a 7th round draft choice. I keep hearing all the time that Hillis isnt all that yet the same numbnuts are going to toot the horn of Moreno? Really? lol

1st 3 years-

Hillis,

1574 yds rushing on 392 attempts
805 yds receiving
17 rushing TDs
3 receiving TDs
4.2 yds a carry


Moreno,

1905 yds rushing on 466 attempts
686 yds receiving
12 rushing TDs
6 receiving TDs
4.1 yds a carry

[shank]

1548
this is all 1st round running backs from 2007 to 2011 and their production in the league. you will notice that knowshon is at the bottom of 0 stat categories for the group. he is not as productive as the rb superstars (AD, CJ) but his stats are in line with most of the guys taken in the 1st round of recent drafts at his position. he even leads the group in receiving TDs in his career so far. Overall he is on the low end, stat-wise of first round runningbacks - but that most likely puts him on the upper end of NFL runningbacks (aka above average), and he definitely would NOT suck if he were taken in the 6th round, jackass.

[vandammage13]

1548
this is all 1st round running backs from 2007 to 2011 and their production in the league. you will notice that knowshon is at the bottom of 0 stat categories for the group. he is not as productive as the rb superstars (AD, CJ) but his stats are in line with most of the guys taken in the 1st round of recent drafts at his position. he even leads the group in receiving TDs in his career so far. Overall he is on the low end, stat-wise of first round runningbacks - but that most likely puts him on the upper end of NFL runningbacks (aka above average), and he definitely would NOT suck if he were taken in the 6th round, jackass.


Yeah, as a #1 pick, you can't look at Knowshown as anthing more than a bust...But once you get past the fact he hasn't lived up to expectations, you can see that he still has value and can help your team.

[MOtorboat]

Yeah, as a #1 pick, you can't look at Knowshown as anthing more than a bust...But once you get past the fact he hasn't lived up to expectations, you can see that he still has value and can help your team.

Moreno isn't a bust. Not even close.

[Nomad]

Is this Moreno's 3rd or 4th season coming up?

[MOtorboat]

Is this Moreno's 3rd or 4th season coming up?

4th

[Northman]

Moreno isn't a bust. Not even close.

He wasnt worth a first rounder either.

[MOtorboat]

He wasnt worth a first rounder either.

What does a first round running back do?

[Nomad]

The talent God forgot to give Moreno; speed, vision, balance, power and durability. Other than that he's a natural.......

Coming into the league from Georgia, he had all these skills and still does. Against better competition in the NFL, he's just not as good as college. As North said, perhaps where he was drafted set the expectations too high.

[Northman]

What does a first round running back do?

Kick ass.

[Ravage!!!]

Not a bust as what, a player or a 1st round pick? Sure he's not a bust as a 6th round pick, although he's obviously not as good as Hillis is/was.

Moreno is not a good NFL RB and I think thats what it comes down to.

[Northman]

Coming into the league from Georgia, he had all these skills and still does. Against better competition in the NFL, he's just not as good as college. As North said, perhaps where he was drafted set the expectations too high.

Indeed. He's serviceable but beyond that....

[MOtorboat]

Kick ass.

You got me.

Argument over.

[vandammage13]

Moreno isn't a bust. Not even close.

In the context of where he was drafted, he certainly hasn't lived up to expectations...

Doesn't mean I don't think he can't be a solid contributer...I just expect more from a guy who was drafted top 10 (or whereever it was).

If he were to have been drafted in the 5th round, the perception would be that he was a good pick...but that's not what it is.

[Ravage!!!]

Well, its either that Moreno is worth a 6th round pick, or Hillis was worth a first. Either way, I think it sucks that Hillis is in KC and Moreno is here.

[Traveler]

Is this Moreno's 3rd or 4th season coming up?

4th. Only one more year and we can let him walk. 5 year contract worth $16.7 million. Can't say he's justified that contract with his play. Maybe this year he can make it through an entire season.

[Northman]

You got me.

Argument over.

I knew you would see my way you bitch. :)

[shank]

Yeah, as a #1 pick, you can't look at Knowshown as anthing more than a bust...But once you get past the fact he hasn't lived up to expectations, you can see that he still has value and can help your team.
you quoted my post, but did you look at what i posted? his numbers are in line with other 1st round backs taken in recent years. people's expectation for a 1st round back is based entirely on adrien peterson and chris johnson, but that is so damned dumb - they are the exception, not the rule.

[MOtorboat]

I knew you would see my way you bitch. :)

I'll just remember that argument for the future.

Why does he suck? Because he doesn't "kick ass."

Btw, you're off on Hillis' receiving yards.

[Nomad]

4th. Only one more year and we can let him walk. 5 year contract worth $16.7 million. Can't say he's justified that contract with his play. Maybe this year he can make it through an entire season.

Time flies. I guess the developmental period is out of the question.:lol: Well, if Moreno can't get it done under Manning then his time with the BRONCOS is limited.

[Northman]

you quoted my post, but did you look at what i posted? his numbers are in line with other 1st round backs taken in recent years. people's expectation for a 1st round back is based entirely on adrien peterson and chris johnson, but that is so damned dumb - they are the exception, not the rule.

Well, your half right and half wrong. While your correct that the Peterson's and the Johnson's are a rarity i think the general consensus is that you dont take a back in the first round unless he is a sure thing. Seeing how Hillis had just as much production as Moreno at this point shows that Moreno should of never been taken in the first round to begin with. But unfortuantely, when you do take a back he better damn well be that "special" someone. You can find a million "productive" backs in the later rounds and i believe that is what most of us are trying to convey here. While there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it, it doesnt change the fact that he hasnt lived up to the 1st round billing for a #12 pick.

[MOtorboat]

Some people expect a HOFer with every first round pick...

[Northman]

I'll just remember that argument for the future.

Why does he suck? Because he doesn't "kick ass."

Btw, you're off on Hillis' receiving yards.


I should clarify, he doesnt suck at receiving the ball. Just trying to run between the tackles.

And your right, i was looking at Peyton's total yardage counting his 4th year. His 3 year receiving is 675.

[shank]

if every first round back "lived up to expectations" then there would be more than a handful of elite backs in the NFL. if you label moreno a bust, then your expectations are unrealistic.

[Northman]

Some people expect a HOFer with every first round pick...

Isnt that kind of the point of every team? Especially if you need top playmakers and pay them big dollars?

[MOtorboat]

Isnt that kind of the point of every team? Especially if you need top playmakers and pay them big dollars?

It's not very realistic.

[Northman]

if every first round back "lived up to expectations" then there would be more than a handful of elite backs in the NFL. if you label moreno a bust, then your expectations are unrealistic.

Great. No more need for scouting or anything else. Who needs expectations?

[shank]

Well, your half right and half wrong. While your correct that the Peterson's and the Johnson's are a rarity i think the general consensus is that you dont take a back in the first round unless he is a sure thing. Seeing how Hillis had just as much production as Moreno at this point shows that Moreno should of never been taken in the first round to begin with. But unfortuantely, when you do take a back he better damn well be that "special" someone. You can find a million "productive" backs in the later rounds and i believe that is what most of us are trying to convey here. While there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it, it doesnt change the fact that he hasnt lived up to the 1st round billing for a #12 pick.

look at the damned chart i posted. there are a lot of 1st round backs producing similar numbers to knowshon. we are a bunch of broncos fans who got spoiled by TD and Portis and the zone blocking scheme that made joe blow look competent at worst. the only thing that disappoints me about knomo is the injuries - they have limited his carries and often times, his productiveness. also - he was picked 18.

[Nomad]

I think Manning can get the best out of Moreno.

[Northman]

It's not very realistic.

So why do you say that Cutler sucks so much? And im not trying to be a dick but genuinely curious. If we should remain realistic than why do give so much flack to guys like Cutler, Sheff, and so on? Why bother even having expectations if it doesnt matter? Im really trying to figure out your angle here. Why do you give some players a pass and others not?

[shank]

Great. No more need for scouting or anything else. Who needs expectations?

holy shit bro...

every team still does their due dilligence and you hope for the best, and you take the best player you see available at the spot you're at - but it's ******* unrealistic to expect it to work every time. when a team is flat out wrong about a player, then you can label him a bust. the broncos were not wrong about knowshon, they just weren't as right as they had hoped.

[Northman]

also - he was picked 18.

Looked at the chart, your missing the bigger picture mate. Also, Ayers was 18, not Moreno.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowshon_Moreno

[Buff]

Some people expect a HOFer with every first round pick...

Moreno is ineffective by any measurement. I literally get angry that people go to such great lengths to defend zero production. It makes no sense.

[Northman]

they just weren't as right as they had hoped.

Finally, the answer i was looking for. Thank you.

[MOtorboat]

Moreno is ineffective by any measurement. I literally get angry that people go to such great lengths to defend zero production. It makes no sense.

Define "zero production."

[MOtorboat]

At what point do you get above "zero production?" Does he have to get to 3,000 yards, 4,000?

[Buff]

Define "zero production."

Watch him play for crying out loud. He doesn't know what to do when he receives a hand off.

[shank]

Moreno is ineffective by any measurement. I literally get angry that people go to such great lengths to defend zero production. It makes no sense.


Finally, the answer i was looking for. Thank you.

north, i think you're arguing something different than guys like buff are, as seen in his post above - which is just flat out wrong, stupid, ugly, and pretty effeminate.

sounds like you're arguing the definition of the word "bust," not that moreno is useless. and if that's the case, we still disagree. moreno isn't a bust because he didn't live up to expectations, he just simply hasn't lived up to expectations. a bust to me is a joke, a complete waste of a pick.

[Ravage!!!]

Some people expect a HOFer with every first round pick...

Really... says the guy that bashes Cutler at ever turn?

So there is no difference between Knowshon and HoF production?? So what you are saying is, if we don't see Knowshon being good, then its simply because we expect HoF production instead. Really? Thats extremely Black-n-white

[shank]

Watch him play for crying out loud. He doesn't know what to do when he receives a hand off.

it's a good thing that defenses are kind enough to take him by the hand and lead him 4+ yards downfield before letting him rest every play then.

[Northman]

north, i think you're arguing something different than guys like buff are, as seen in his post above - which is just flat out wrong, stupid, ugly, and pretty effeminate.

sounds like you're arguing the definition of the word "bust," not that moreno is useless. and if that's the case, we still disagree. moreno isn't a bust because he didn't live up to expectations, he just simply hasn't lived up to expectations. a bust to me is a joke, a complete waste of a pick.

Yea, i am debating something else entirely. I dont call him a bust. At least in a traditional sense. He is serviceable and very good out of the backfield (which i figured he would be watching him at Georgia). But as a straight up runner he has very poor vision and often runs into the back of the Oline. My only point in all this was he was a bad pick (at the spot he was taken). If he had been taken in the second or later i would really have no gripes outside his injuries. Again, nothing can be done as its all water under the bridge but im just saying to me he isnt worth the #12 pick in the draft. He isnt the only one to have been picked high and not live up to expectations but he is the only one we are discussing now.

[Ravage!!!]

sounds like you're arguing the definition of the word "bust," not that moreno is useless. and if that's the case, we still disagree. moreno isn't a bust because he didn't live up to expectations, he just simply hasn't lived up to expectations. a bust to me is a joke, a complete waste of a pick.

I don't think thats what most people define "Bust" as. There are a LOT of players in the NFL...or used to be in the NFL.... that would STILL be in the NFL if they weren't taken in the first round to begin with. Expectations are HIGH as a first round pick. They have to be. if you simply take a 1st round pick and accept 6th round player production as being "ok"...then trade away allllll your draft choices and concentrate on dominating the 5th and 6th rounds by having 30 of them.

You would think that a player that is good enough to get selected in the first round, can be good enough to be a 'back-up' at any position. But thats not what being a 1st round pick is about. If he's a back-up, just going INTO his 4th season, then he absolutely, without a doubt, is a bust as a first round pick.

[MOtorboat]

Really... says the guy that bashes Cutler at ever turn?

So there is no difference between Knowshon and HoF production?? So what you are saying is, if we don't see Knowshon being good, then its simply because we expect HoF production instead. Really? Thats extremely Black-n-white

Fair enough, to numbers. But I expect quarterbacks to be leaders, as well. Don't expect that from running backs. Cutler may be developing (finally) into a leader in Chicago. But he didn't really show that to me in Denver. Three straight late season collapses. Yes, there is more weight on the quarterback's shoulders than other players for that.

[Buff]

it's a good thing that defenses are kind enough to take him by the hand and lead him 4+ yards downfield before letting him rest every play then.

His YPC is below average. I honestly don't know what you're doing here - tell us why Ryan Harris is a pro bowl tackle too.

[Buff]

I am going to start a thread that says the sky is purple - I expect to have Mo and Shank's support.

[Northman]

Fair enough, to numbers. But I expect quarterbacks to be leaders, as well.

Tebow was a leader.......

(like me poking that stick at you dont you? LOL)

[chazoe60]

I am going to start a thread that says the sky is purple - I expect to have Mo and Shank's support.

Throw me in there too because I've agreed with pretty much every thing they've said in this thread.

[MOtorboat]

Tebow was a leader.......

(like me poking that stick at you dont you? LOL)

He is. And if you could put his leadership and will in Cutler's head, you'd have a hell of a quarterback.

[Buff]

Throw me in there too because I've agreed with pretty much every thing they've said in this thread.

Yeah, but you are a known blind homer... Typically Mo is capable of an objective viewpoint.

[MOtorboat]

I am going to start a thread that says the sky is purple - I expect to have Mo and Shank's support.

Do it.

[CoachChaz]

The crazy thing about the Knowshon debate is that people expect him to play at the level of a non-bust top 15 pick. The question should be...is that what he is? Expectations are drawn based on where a player is TAKEN. Key word, TAKEN. not where he decided or chose to go...but where someone else thought his value was.

Look at it like this. If we drafted Ronnie Hillman with the #12 pick, would we have great expectations for him based solely on that? We shouldnt because we know Hillman is 2nd round material at best. Same with Moreno. Did anyone think he was #12 material? Hell no. So instead of blaming the idiot that drafted him there, we lay the blame at the feet of the player that isnt living up to OUR expectations...correction...OUR desires. As fans, we WANT a player drafted at #12 to be a total stud, Pro-Bowl player. But if he isnt...and never really showed signs of ever being that, how can we blame the player?

Moreno is a decent running back with the potential to be a 1000 yard runner. That's all he ever was. If anyone is to blame for creating expectations, it's McD and the numbskulls that saw a workhorse when they saw Moreno.

Injuries aside...I think Moreno has given us EXACTLY what we should have expected from his talent level. And that's all a player should be judged upon. not his draft spot.

[Chef Zambini]

KM has always been #2 in my mind.
the astro-NOT, he works well in space.
regardless of who is playing RB, the dude , FIRST AND FOREMOST, better be a great pass BLOCKER !
thats why BALL is more important to this teams success than KM !
read the blitz, pick it up, be an effectiver BLOCKER! the rest of what a RB does for this offense is GRAVY !
HILLMAN, learn to block, get your opportunity !

[Ravage!!!]

So why do you say that Cutler sucks so much? And im not trying to be a dick but genuinely curious. If we should remain realistic than why do give so much flack to guys like Cutler, Sheff, and so on? Why bother even having expectations if it doesnt matter? Im really trying to figure out your angle here. Why do you give some players a pass and others not?

I have seen a pattern with MO on this. It goes back to McDaniels and Plummer. MO liked Plummer (even though he uses the INT stat against Cutler), and MO liked McDaniels. Cutler was drafted to replace Plummer... and McDaniels got rid of Cutler. Hence, why he hates Cutler and loves McDaniels. People (posters) give McDaniels so much shit for getting rid of our players. So because people give McDaniells shit for getting rid of Hillis, that makes Hillis a target. Since Cutler took over for Plummer, but was dumped by McDaniels...that makes Cutler a target. Scheff is another example of the "people give McD shit because of ___" category. People gripe about dumping talent by taking swipes at McD...hence the attack on the player.

Moreno is another player that people use to bash McD with...... and around we go again.

[topscribe]

Hopefully he wont fall off anymore stationary bikes.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ouYzUskTrnY/TopvEQO0WbI/AAAAAAAAB_I/8A6p2PeqPks/s1600/Picture%2B1.png
I remember when, managing a memorial garden, I watched a groundskeeper fall
off his riding mower. Going up to investigate, I found him absolutely snockered.

I don't think that was Knowshon's problem, though. At least . . . I hope not . . .
.

[chazoe60]

Yeah, but you are a known blind homer... Typically Mo is capable of an objective viewpoint.

Bite me.

If you did this is what the imprint would look like

OOOOOOO_____OOOOOOO

[Northman]

The crazy thing about the Knowshon debate is that people expect him to play at the level of a non-bust top 15 pick. The question should be...is that what he is? Expectations are drawn based on where a player is TAKEN. Key word, TAKEN. not where he decided or chose to go...but where someone else thought his value was.

Look at it like this. If we drafted Ronnie Hillman with the #12 pick, would we have great expectations for him based solely on that? We shouldnt because we know Hillman is 2nd round material at best. Same with Moreno. Did anyone think he was #12 material? Hell no. So instead of blaming the idiot that drafted him there, we lay the blame at the feet of the player that isnt living up to OUR expectations...correction...OUR desires. As fans, we WANT a player drafted at #12 to be a total stud, Pro-Bowl player. But if he isnt...and never really showed signs of ever being that, how can we blame the player?

Moreno is a decent running back with the potential to be a 1000 yard runner. That's all he ever was. If anyone is to blame for creating expectations, it's McD and the numbskulls that saw a workhorse when they saw Moreno.

Injuries aside...I think Moreno has given us EXACTLY what we should have expected from his talent level. And that's all a player should be judged upon. not his draft spot.

Well actually, he was projected a first rounder Coach. Regardless if McDouche took him he was still projected to go in the first round.

[CoachChaz]

I don't think thats what most people define "Bust" as. There are a LOT of players in the NFL...or used to be in the NFL.... that would STILL be in the NFL if they weren't taken in the first round to begin with. Expectations are HIGH as a first round pick. They have to be. if you simply take a 1st round pick and accept 6th round player production as being "ok"...then trade away allllll your draft choices and concentrate on dominating the 5th and 6th rounds by having 30 of them.

You would think that a player that is good enough to get selected in the first round, can be good enough to be a 'back-up' at any position. But thats not what being a 1st round pick is about. If he's a back-up, just going INTO his 4th season, then he absolutely, without a doubt, is a bust as a first round pick.

Again...is that his fault or the morons that thought he was first round talent?

[CoachChaz]

Well actually, he was projected a first rounder Coach. Regardless if McDouche took him he was still projected to go in the first round.

Not at #12

[MOtorboat]

I remember when, managing a memorial garden, I watched a groundskeeper fall
off his riding mower. Going up to investigate, I found him absolutely snockered.

I don't think that was Knowshon's problem, though. At least . . . I hope not . . .
.

"Sauced."

[Northman]

Not at #12


Im not so sure. I do remember him being pretty highly regarded. Im pretty sure he was projected as a 10-15 pick. Could be wrong but thats how i remember that draft being projected with him.

[Buff]

The crazy thing about the Knowshon debate is that people expect him to play at the level of a non-bust top 15 pick. The question should be...is that what he is? Expectations are drawn based on where a player is TAKEN. Key word, TAKEN. not where he decided or chose to go...but where someone else thought his value was.

Look at it like this. If we drafted Ronnie Hillman with the #12 pick, would we have great expectations for him based solely on that? We shouldnt because we know Hillman is 2nd round material at best. Same with Moreno. Did anyone think he was #12 material? Hell no. So instead of blaming the idiot that drafted him there, we lay the blame at the feet of the player that isnt living up to OUR expectations...correction...OUR desires. As fans, we WANT a player drafted at #12 to be a total stud, Pro-Bowl player. But if he isnt...and never really showed signs of ever being that, how can we blame the player?

Moreno is a decent running back with the potential to be a 1000 yard runner. That's all he ever was. If anyone is to blame for creating expectations, it's McD and the numbskulls that saw a workhorse when they saw Moreno.

Injuries aside...I think Moreno has given us EXACTLY what we should have expected from his talent level. And that's all a player should be judged upon. not his draft spot.

The only reason he sniffed 1000 yards is because the stubborn coach who drafted him insisted on giving him undeserved reps.

I would take any RB from any roster in the NFL over Knowshon. He doesn't have an NFL RB skill set. Lance Ball is more talented and effective.

[Buff]

Bite me.

If you did this is what the imprint would look like

OOOOOOO_____OOOOOOO

Yeah, well you are fat.

[Chef Zambini]

The crazy thing about the Knowshon debate is that people expect him to play at the level of a non-bust top 15 pick. The question should be...is that what he is? Expectations are drawn based on where a player is TAKEN. Key word, TAKEN. not where he decided or chose to go...but where someone else thought his value was.

Look at it like this. If we drafted Ronnie Hillman with the #12 pick, would we have great expectations for him based solely on that? We shouldnt because we know Hillman is 2nd round material at best. Same with Moreno. Did anyone think he was #12 material? Hell no. So instead of blaming the idiot that drafted him there, we lay the blame at the feet of the player that isnt living up to OUR expectations...correction...OUR desires. As fans, we WANT a player drafted at #12 to be a total stud, Pro-Bowl player. But if he isnt...and never really showed signs of ever being that, how can we blame the player?

Moreno is a decent running back with the potential to be a 1000 yard runner. That's all he ever was. If anyone is to blame for creating expectations, it's McD and the numbskulls that saw a workhorse when they saw Moreno.

Injuries aside...I think Moreno has given us EXACTLY what we should have expected from his talent level. And that's all a player should be judged upon. not his draft spot.excellent post! but regardless of his draft position, KM has been a disapointment! poor balance and vision.
yes he rund hard, hit him above the navel and he fights foir every inch ! hit him below the knee and he goes down like a bowling pin !
he is a decent receiver and pass blocker, decent.
I would rather have a fullback do his job.
if hillman was 100% I think KM would be someplace else.

[topscribe]

"Sauced."
Colloquial expression . . .
.

[chazoe60]

The only reason he sniffed 1000 yards is because the stubborn coach who drafted him insisted on giving him undeserved reps.

I would take any RB from any roster in the NFL over Knowshon. He doesn't have an NFL RB skill set. Lance Ball is more talented and effective.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man

[Ravage!!!]

Not at #12

Many people, including those on this board, projected us to take him at 12 during that draft. I, personally, don't think you should take a RB in the first because its rare that a talent taken in the 5th isn't nearly as good.

But I don't HATE Moreno, the person. So I'm not blaming HIM for being taken in the first round. I DO see exactly what he is, a back-up RB. But what I've continued to say throughout this thread, is that I don't see him doing ANYTHING that someone taken much later in the draft could do if given the opportunity. Hence I don't think he's special (as somene posted he was)..and I don't think he's a first round talent. I said "I'm not sure he doesn't suck"...as to a talent compared to the rest of the NFL RBs. We've seen many 6th round RBs that can contribute as much as Moreno has. He doesn't suck as a person, he doesn't suck as an athlete, but he SUCKS as a 1st round pick. He sucks if his talent is easily comparable to a 6th round RBs.

[chazoe60]

Yeah, well you are fat.

No shit.

[CoachChaz]

Im not so sure. I do remember him being pretty highly regarded. Im pretty sure he was projected as a 10-15 pick. Could be wrong but thats how i remember that draft being projected with him.

He was considered the #2 or #3 back behind Beanie Wells and in some circles, behind Donald Brown. I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of people and pundits had him going very late first at best. I'd have to go back and look, but I dont recall seeing too many people putting him in the top 20 or even top 25

[shank]

I don't think thats what most people define "Bust" as. There are a LOT of players in the NFL...or used to be in the NFL.... that would STILL be in the NFL if they weren't taken in the first round to begin with. Expectations are HIGH as a first round pick. They have to be. if you simply take a 1st round pick and accept 6th round player production as being "ok"...then trade away allllll your draft choices and concentrate on dominating the 5th and 6th rounds by having 30 of them.

You would think that a player that is good enough to get selected in the first round, can be good enough to be a 'back-up' at any position. But thats not what being a 1st round pick is about. If he's a back-up, just going INTO his 4th season, then he absolutely, without a doubt, is a bust as a first round pick.
if that's how you look at it, then the overall first round bust percentage in the NFL would have to be quite high. For whatever reason, there are tons of 1st round picks that don't pan out, even as well as knoshon has for us - and if busts are as common as that, then i don't see why it's such a surprise that it could happen with knowshon as well. no, it's not what you want, and yes it's frustrating, but if anything less than stellar production is a bust, then you can't act blindsided when it happens

[topscribe]

The only reason he sniffed 1000 yards is because the stubborn coach who drafted him insisted on giving him undeserved reps.

I would take any RB from any roster in the NFL over Knowshon. He doesn't have an NFL RB skill set. Lance Ball is more talented and effective.
Baloney.
.

[Traveler]

According to Woody Paige, even McDaniels realized selecting Moreno that high was a mistake after seeing him in camp. As terrible as JM was at selecting players, it's telling when even he acknowledges his mistake.

[MOtorboat]

I have seen a pattern with MO on this. It goes back to McDaniels and Plummer. MO liked Plummer (even though he uses the INT stat against Cutler), and MO liked McDaniels. Cutler was drafted to replace Plummer... and McDaniels got rid of Cutler. Hence, why he hates Cutler and loves McDaniels. People (posters) give McDaniels so much shit for getting rid of our players. So because people give McDaniells shit for getting rid of Hillis, that makes Hillis a target. Since Cutler took over for Plummer, but was dumped by McDaniels...that makes Cutler a target. Scheff is another example of the "people give McD shit because of ___" category. People gripe about dumping talent by taking swipes at McD...hence the attack on the player.

Moreno is another player that people use to bash McD with...... and around we go again.

Fair enough.

I do think Shanahan ruined Plummer by drafting Cutler, and I did expect Cutler to lead us to better things than Plummer and he didn't even come close. I also think by drafting Cutler he screwed up Denver's chances at getting to a Super Bowl. Could Plummer win a Super Bowl, maybe not, but he's had the best shot of any Broncos quarterback since Elway retired.

Moreno doesn't have much to do with my like or dislike of McDaniels (and I don't like McDaniels, but I can be OK with moves he made..., i.e. Cutler and Hillis and still dislike him), but in this notion that every first rounder is a HOFer or he's a bust. Moreno isn't a bust. Is he AP or CJ, obviously not, but he's not a bust, and he is a productive player. If Ayers and Moreno end up playing with the Broncos for eight to ten years, are they busts? Not in my mind. Now, obviously I don't know if that's going to happen, but I'm perfectly OK with getting a 7-10-year starter in the first round as I am with getting a HOFer. In fact, I think it's more realistic to expect getting a starter or very good role player for a significant amount of time versus a HOF with every first round pick.

I think Ayers and Moreno are a step below that, and yes, that makes them below average for a first round player, but they aren't useless either.

Slim said it perfectly, second best running back on the team and he's the second running back listed on the depth chart.

[Northman]

He was considered the #2 or #3 back behind Beanie Wells and in some circles, behind Donald Brown. I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of people and pundits had him going very late first at best. I'd have to go back and look, but I dont recall seeing too many people putting him in the top 20 or even top 25

Yea, im looking now but so far only found one scouting report with a little blurb about him going with Wells around pick 15-20. Im still looking though.

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=1586


An All-American on the field, Moreno has never been anything other than a strong example off the field as well. Look for him to go off the board near fellow RB Chris Wells somewhere around 15th or 20th in the upcoming draft.

[Ravage!!!]

According to Woody Paige, even McDaniels realized selecting Moreno that high was a mistake after seeing him in camp. As terrible as JM was at selecting players, it's telling when even he acknowledges his mistake.

I remember that. He also refused to play Tebow.

[CoachChaz]

Im not so sure. I do remember him being pretty highly regarded. Im pretty sure he was projected as a 10-15 pick. Could be wrong but thats how i remember that draft being projected with him.

Just a quick scan of his average mock grade in 2009 and the average was to be picked at 27 with the highest being Philly at 21.

[NightTerror218]

I think Hillman is going to be broken in slowly so that he heals. He has that lingering hammy injury....Did Tamme drop the TD pass from Manning?

[CoachChaz]

My opinion...Hillman will be a bigger bust as a 2nd rounder than Moreno is seen as a #12 pick.

[topscribe]

I remember that. He also refused to play Tebow.
And then we found out why.

It was one thing to have to admit a mistake in where McDaniels selected Moreno.
And then we found out how raw Ayers (#18) was. And then McDaniels trades up
to take Tebow. Talk about a first-round embarrassment . . .
.

[Northman]

Just a quick scan of his average mock grade in 2009 and the average was to be picked at 27 with the highest being Philly at 21.

I just found one saying he should be a top 10 pick. lol

There was also another one that said the ESPN mocks had him going in the top 15 as well. I never personally saw him listed as low as 20 or later.

[Northman]

My opinion...Hillman will be a bigger bust as a 2nd rounder than Moreno is seen as a #12 pick.

Wasnt Hillman a 3rd or 4th?

[Ravage!!!]

Fair enough.

I do think Shanahan ruined Plummer by drafting Cutler, and I did expect Cutler to lead us to better things than Plummer and he didn't even come close. I also think by drafting Cutler he screwed up Denver's chances at getting to a Super Bowl. Could Plummer win a Super Bowl, maybe not, but he's had the best shot of any Broncos quarterback since Elway retired.
I think you are completelly off on this, but we've discussed that before. ANother time, another day.


but in this notion that every first rounder is a HOFer or he's a bust.

Again MO, this is just silly. NO ONE is saying HoF or bust. Thats YOU trying to disparage all our criticisms of Moreno into "too high expectations."



Moreno isn't a bust. Is he AP or CJ, obviously not, but he's not a bust, and he is a productive player. If Ayers and Moreno end up playing with the Broncos for eight to ten years, are they busts? Not in my mind. Now, obviously I don't know if that's going to happen, but I'm perfectly OK with getting a 7-10-year starter in the first round as I am with getting a HOFer. In fact, I think it's more realistic to expect getting a starter or very good role player for a significant amount of time versus a HOF with every first round pick.

Obviously HoF is a bonus to ANY position...and no one should EXPECT HoF player to be drafted. But I DO expect a guy to be a starter. Now he may not be the best in the NFL at his position, he may not be a perennial pro-bowler, but its not TOO MUCH to ask a guy that to be a STARTER his 3 year in the NFL. Now you can say "if he's productive" all you want. I want a guy thats going to be more productive, or better at his "role," than a 6th round pick would be. Moreno isn't a starter, and isn't even a good role player. We drafted someone to take his "role"..and most probably would be splitting that role his rookie season if it weren't for injuries.

Thats a HELL of a lot further from "HoF" expectations that you keep putting on people because they don't like what they see from Moreno, the guy off the bench>

[broncofaninfla]

I've been a huge crictic of Moreno's play to date BUT I do feel he could be better suited for this offense than the others he's failed in to date. I can see him being a poor mans Addai in pass protection and catching short passes outside the box. He'll never be a between the tackles runner in this league, he goes down way too easy and his lane vision sucks but I do give him a shot in this offense until Hillman gets up to speed.

[underrated29]

The only reason he sniffed 1000 yards is because the stubborn coach who drafted him insisted on giving him undeserved reps.

I would take any RB from any roster in the NFL over Knowshon. He doesn't have an NFL RB skill set. Lance Ball is more talented and effective.



Are you serious right now? I didnt read through the whole thread, but I am sure you are not.




Just in case-
Mcdaniels did quite the opposite. He would totally pull knowshon from the games....Remember the patriots game or the cheifs game? Knowshon was already at 100+ yards before Halftime and after halftime we ran it a total of 10 times. That is 5 runs per quarter, after knowshon was already chewing up the defenses. The only reason knowshon did not sniff 1100+ is because of mcdaniels.

I know you are not serious about lance ball. That is Zam talk right there.

[underrated29]

I've been a huge crictic of Moreno's play to date BUT I do feel he could be better suited for this offense than the others he's failed in to date. I can see him being a poor mans Addai in pass protection and catching short passes outside the box. He'll never be a between the tackles runner in this league, he goes down way too easy and his lane vision sucks but I do give him a shot in this offense until Hillman gets up to speed.



You mean addai is a poor mans moreno...Addai does Nothing better than moreno. And Knowshon is the BEST pass protector on our team. better than willis. He is also much better in open space.

[BroncoNut]

moreno has a ton of upside

[NightTerror218]

Hillman looked good in last game. He was our best RB yards wise in very limited action.

[Ravage!!!]

a Ton of upside??? He's into his fourth season and we drafted a guy to take over his spot..or his "role." He doesn't have any upside. He's flatlined as to what he's going to be in the NFL.

[Nomad]

He was considered the #2 or #3 back behind Beanie Wells and in some circles, behind Donald Brown. I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of people and pundits had him going very late first at best. I'd have to go back and look, but I dont recall seeing too many people putting him in the top 20 or even top 25

Moreno was a 'WTF in McDaniels thinking type of pick' at #12 especially when we had #18 and there was some good defensive players at #12. But IIRC, the BRONCOS wanted to get Moreno because the Chargers were supposedly going to take him.

[BroncoNut]

Hillman looked good in last game. He was our best RB yards wise in very limited action.

this is often the case with rookie running backs in preseason. they go out there playing like they have something to prove, that's why such an event is so common

[Chef Zambini]

Moreno was a 'WTF in McDaniels thinking type of pick' at #12 especially when we had #18 and there was some good defensive players at #12. But IIRC, the BRONCOS wanted to get Moreno because the Chargers were supposedly going to take him.the broncos NEWVER selected a RB in round one during the shanny regime, this was something different !
I remember thinking, I wonder what a first round TALENT would do behind our Oline?
well KM was not going to provide any answer, turns out he was just a first round SELECTION, no where close to being a first round TALENT !
I will say this on KMs behalf, he was injured right from the start and JMCD pushed him into service to try and justify hie existence.
I dont think that has anything to do with his poor vision and poor balance, however.
if KM was a fourth round pick, I would still be dissapointed in his running skill !
HILLMAN beter be better !

[CoachChaz]

I pray to God that Hillman wasnt drafted to be a primary back.

[Hawgdriver]

But as a straight up runner he has very poor vision and often runs into the back of the Oline.

I keep waiting for Moreno to adjust to the NFL game. He often has vision in space, but hasn't developed that sixth sense that good backs have about how the play is going to develop in those critical two seconds after the snap. If he ever does develop that sense, and stays healthy, he'll be fine.

In response to Moreno's "named talents," I don't care how they might be categorized, e.g., vision, balance, speed, power, and so on. Those are abstract notions. We don't care about abstractions, we care about production. The game is about production, not theories of RB value. He can produce, and he has produced when he's on the field based on his numbers. This is especially true out of the backfield.

If he ever fully develops that intuitive knack that an NFL back needs in the straight run game (and sadly, I doubt that he ever does) he could be a tier 1 NFL back: especially productive. As it is, he's productive but not worth the 1st round pick.

[chazoe60]

I pray to God that Hillman wasnt drafted to be a primary back.

You have a weird religion.

[slim]

I used to pray for all-u-can eat sausage at Olive Garden.

Buff, prayer does work....FYI.

[MOtorboat]

I think you are completelly off on this, but we've discussed that before. ANother time, another day.



Again MO, this is just silly. NO ONE is saying HoF or bust. Thats YOU trying to disparage all our criticisms of Moreno into "too high expectations."




Obviously HoF is a bonus to ANY position...and no one should EXPECT HoF player to be drafted. But I DO expect a guy to be a starter. Now he may not be the best in the NFL at his position, he may not be a perennial pro-bowler, but its not TOO MUCH to ask a guy that to be a STARTER his 3 year in the NFL. Now you can say "if he's productive" all you want. I want a guy thats going to be more productive, or better at his "role," than a 6th round pick would be. Moreno isn't a starter, and isn't even a good role player. We drafted someone to take his "role"..and most probably would be splitting that role his rookie season if it weren't for injuries.

Thats a HELL of a lot further from "HoF" expectations that you keep putting on people because they don't like what they see from Moreno, the guy off the bench>

His production is NOT that of a sixth round pick. When comparing players, you don't use the best sixth rounder you can find. That doesn't establish a baseline trend. All of the 6th rounders in Moreno's draft class combined haven't equaled his production. So using Hillis as a baseline for what a sixth round pick is, is probably not the best way to compare sixth round picks.

I think we can both agree Hillis has overachieved for a sixth round pick.

[Ravage!!!]

His production is NOT that of a sixth round pick. When comparing players, you don't use the best sixth rounder you can find. That doesn't establish a baseline trend. All of the 6th rounders in Moreno's draft class combined haven't equaled his production. So using Hillis as a baseline for what a sixth round pick is, is probably not the best way to compare sixth round picks.

I think we can both agree Hillis has overachieved for a sixth round pick.

Ok. I was just speaking in generalities added with some exaggeration. That being said, I certainly do NOT see anything that Moreno does that guys like Mike Anderson, Ruben Droughns, or Orlandis Gary couldn't do. In Fact, they were better.

[BroncoNut]

Ok. I was just speaking in generalities added with some exaggeration. That being said, I certainly do NOT see anything that Moreno does that guys like Mike Anderson, Ruben Droughns, or Orlandis Gary could/did do.

well maybe you should try speaking in exaggerations first and then add some generality

[Papa-pwn]

Possibly so. But what I'm saying is given the SAME opportunities (runs on the goal line and such)... I'm not sure there aren't MOST RBs tht could do as much as Moreno has. He doesn't have good vision, has poor speed, and hasn't shown to make any "big" runs (probably because of his lack of speed). I'm just saying that all backs in the NFL are good enough to be there, but I haven't seen anything of Moreno to make me believe that he's any better than anyone else. I'm sure he could do ok as a back-up, but he's not someone I would say we "have to keep." Such as a Sproles should have been for San Diego.

And that's where you are misinformed. His career yards per touch and TDs per touch. Look them up and compare them to the top backs in the NFL. You'll be surprised.

[Papa-pwn]

His YPC is below average. I honestly don't know what you're doing here - tell us why Ryan Harris is a pro bowl tackle too.

Therefore McGahee is below average as well? Seeing as they have the exact same career YPC.

[Papa-pwn]

KM has always been #2 in my mind.
the astro-NOT, he works well in space.
regardless of who is playing RB, the dude , FIRST AND FOREMOST, better be a great pass BLOCKER !
thats why BALL is more important to this teams success than KM !
read the blitz, pick it up, be an effectiver BLOCKER! the rest of what a RB does for this offense is GRAVY !
HILLMAN, learn to block, get your opportunity !

One of Moreno's fortes is pass blocking. He is the best back on the roster at it.

[silkamilkamonico]

People just hate moreno.

Jeremiah Johnson having more potential than Moreno? Thats just NFL stupid.

[Ravage!!!]

And that's where you are misinformed. His career yards per touch and TDs per touch. Look them up and compare them to the top backs in the NFL. You'll be surprised.

Come on, papa. I don't have to look anything up to know that he's not a top back... and now he's a back-up on his own team. Not to mention, the coaches/GM drafted a player to take over the very role that he would/will be filling this season. He's Soooo comparable to the "top backs" that not only are they not starting him, they have already brought in his replacement.

How many more carries does McGahee have over Moreno, since you are comparing "career" averages. I once saw a receiver that caught 2 passes all year long, and averaged 30 ypc. Tops in the NFL when you compare him to the rest.

[Papa-pwn]

The only reason he sniffed 1000 yards is because the stubborn coach who drafted him insisted on giving him undeserved reps.

I would take any RB from any roster in the NFL over Knowshon. He doesn't have an NFL RB skill set. Lance Ball is more talented and effective.

I haven't been on this site very long, but you'd think someone with over 10,000 posts would be a bit more educated.

[Papa-pwn]

He was considered the #2 or #3 back behind Beanie Wells and in some circles, behind Donald Brown. I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of people and pundits had him going very late first at best. I'd have to go back and look, but I dont recall seeing too many people putting him in the top 20 or even top 25

No, he was the consensus #1 RB and everyone had him in the top 15. Top 20 at the very least.

[Papa-pwn]

My opinion...Hillman will be a bigger bust as a 2nd rounder than Moreno is seen as a #12 pick.

Good thing he was a 3rd rounder then..

[Papa-pwn]

Come on, papa. I don't have to look anything up to know that he's not a top back... and now he's a back-up on his own team. Not to mention, the coaches/GM drafted a player to take over the very role that he would/will be filling this season. He's Soooo comparable to the "top backs" that not only are they not starting him, they have already brought in his replacement.

How many more carries does McGahee have over Moreno, since you are comparing "career" averages. I once saw a receiver that caught 2 passes all year long, and averaged 30 ypc. Tops in the NFL when you compare him to the rest.

He's not a top back in the league, but I'm just saying. He's not some scrub. When given the oppurtunities, he has produced for us. The only thing you can put on him is his bad luck with injuries. You can't fault him for the OL letting guys into the backfield at the snap or McD pulling the plug on the run game whenever he got it going his rookie year.

Moreno has enough touches, several hundred, to compare career numbers.

I don't think Hillman is Moreno's replacement, but meant to be the 1b to Moreno in the future.

[Ravage!!!]

I don't think Hillman is Moreno's replacement, but meant to be the 1b to Moreno in the future.

Then you are in denial. Moreno has this year to prove himself just keep a roster spot. Moreno will NEVER be this team's #1 RB unless an injury forces us to put him there. He's no where NEAR #1 RB material, and "blaming" the OL is just excuses.

[ShaneFalco]

People just hate moreno.

Jeremiah Johnson having more potential than Moreno? Thats just NFL stupid.
JJ is faster. who knows if he can stay healthy being so small, but its not like Moreno can....


Jeremiah Johnson is such a cool name 2 lol

[ShaneFalco]

What does a first round running back do?

steven jackson?

[Buff]

Therefore McGahee is below average as well? Seeing as they have the exact same career YPC.

It just means YPC doesn't tell the whole story, and that Moreno's sample size is tiny.

[silkamilkamonico]

What does a first round running back do?

steven jackson?

Has never been in a playoff game.

The top 20 Rbs have never won a superbowl.

RBs are so overrated in this day and age.

So glad he front office hasnt put a high premium on this position and overpaid for a low impact position.

Now if they could only cut Lance Balls.

[topscribe]

a Ton of upside??? He's into his fourth season and we drafted a guy to take over his spot..or his "role." He doesn't have any upside. He's flatlined as to what he's going to be in the NFL.
This Denver fanbase is terrific at taking a player who has never been able to
show what he can really do because he's been injured, and judging him on
what kind of talent and upside he could have when healthy. I've seen that in
more cases than just Moreno . . .
.

[Buff]

I haven't been on this site very long, but you'd think someone with over 10,000 posts would be a bit more educated.

Oh, cool, a new condescending member.

I think Knowshon Moreno sucks at football and therefore I must be stoopid. Thanks for gracing us with your logic. I can't wait for your next 9,000 posts.

[Buff]

This Denver fanbase is terrific at taking a player who has never been able to
show what he can really do because he's been injured, and judging him on
what kind of talent and upside he could have when healthy. I've seen that in
more cases than just Moreno . . .
.

Yeah, let's give him another decade to reach his full potential. That would be the fair thing to do.

[Ravage!!!]

This Denver fanbase is terrific at taking a player who has never been able to
show what he can really do because he's been injured, and judging him on
what kind of talent and upside he could have when healthy. I've seen that in
more cases than just Moreno . . .
.

Which ones came back from injuries and proved anyone wrong? Its not just a single injury, and its not that he's hurt. I've seen him when healthy, and he's just not special. That being said, I think MANY MANY RBs can do for the Broncos what Moreno has. Moreno does not have "upside" at this point. We've seen, over three years, what he is and what he's not. He's not a #1 back, that I promise you with guarantees.

[silkamilkamonico]

The best kind of rbs are the ones tbat catch passes, which is sonething Moreno does very well, in fact one of the better pass catching backs in the nfl.

[Ravage!!!]

The best kind of rbs are the ones tbat catch passes, which is sonething Moreno does very well, in fact one of the better pass catching backs in the nfl.

Ok.

[Northman]

The best kind of rbs are the ones tbat catch passes, which is sonething Moreno does very well, in fact one of the better pass catching backs in the nfl.

Well, actually the best kind of backs are the ones who can stay on the field.

[silkamilkamonico]

The best kind of rbs are the ones tbat catch passes, which is sonething Moreno does very well, in fact one of the better pass catching backs in the nfl.

Ok.

Im glad you are seeing be light. Just think, the most dynamic teams in the offense dont have a #1 rb.

[Ravage!!!]

Im glad you are seeing be light. Just think, the most dynamic teams in the offense dont have a #1 rb.

Like that Giants or Steelers?

[silkamilkamonico]

The best kind of rbs are the ones tbat catch passes, which is sonething Moreno does very well, in fact one of the better pass catching backs in the nfl.

Well, actually the best kind of backs are the ones who can stay on the field.

Yes, and looking around the NFL, that would considte of what, 1% of them. Willis McGahee has a glass gina as well.

[silkamilkamonico]

Im glad you are seeing be light. Just think, the most dynamic teams in the offense dont have a #1 rb.

Like that Giants or Steelers?

The Giants have 3 Rbs. Rashard Mendenhall? glass gina. Anymore bad examples?

[Northman]

Yes, and looking around the NFL, that would considte of what, 1% of them. Willis McGahee has a glass gina as well.

McGahee also has a lot more mileage on him.

[Ravage!!!]

The Giants have 3 Rbs. Rashard Mendenhall? glass gina. Anymore bad examples?

Sorry, you are changing your criteria. make up your mind. Those two teams have won multible Super Bowls... recently. They BOTH have #1 running backs, and both have a good rushing attack. I'm sorry you are wrong, but changing the categories isn't making your point for you.

[BroncoNut]

Has never been in a playoff game.

The top 20 Rbs have never won a superbowl.

RBs are so overrated in this day and age.
So glad he front office hasnt put a high premium on this position and overpaid for a low impact position.

Now if they could only cut Lance Balls.

no9t sure what you mean by overrated.. are yiou saying that an adequeate rb is a dime a dozen these days? expendible? I might agree with that somewhat. I think the way of the NFL is going towards the rbbc, specialty backs. backs for certain situations, goalline backs, 3rd and short backs, snow backs, rain backs, halfbacks, ibacks, greenbacks, wetbacks, setbacks, silverbacks, brokebacks, camelbacks, cameltoes, splitbacks,
Is that what you mean?

[silkamilkamonico]

Yes, and looking around the NFL, that would considte of what, 1% of them. Willis McGahee has a glass gina as well.

McGahee also has a lot more mileage on him.

Mcgahee came inti the nfl with a glass gina. Dude is a workhorse though.

[silkamilkamonico]

The Giants have 3 Rbs. Rashard Mendenhall? glass gina. Anymore bad examples?

Sorry, you are changing your criteria. make up your mind. Those two teams have won multible Super Bowls... recently. They BOTH have #1 running backs, and both have a good rushing attack. I'm sorry you are wrong, but changing the categories isn't making your point for you.

Pay attention to the arguement at hand. Neither are top franchise backs in the nfl. Instead of changing someone elses argument, try creating your own.

[silkamilkamonico]

Has never been in a playoff game.

The top 20 Rbs have never won a superbowl.

RBs are so overrated in this day and age.
So glad he front office hasnt put a high premium on this position and overpaid for a low impact position.

Now if they could only cut Lance Balls.

no9t sure what you mean by overrated.. are yiou saying that an adequeate rb is a dime a dozen these days? expendible? I might agree with that somewhat. I think the way of the NFL is going towards the rbbc, specialty backs. backs for certain situations, goalline backs, 3rd and short backs, snow backs, rain backs, halfbacks, ibacks, greenbacks, wetbacks, setbacks, silverbacks, brokebacks, camelbacks, cameltoes, splitbacks,
Is that what you mean?

Rbs are one of the least importabt position.
Tom Brady won 3 Superbowls with garbage Rbs.
Manning won superbowl with 1st round busts like Moreno at rb.
Lt? Dude did NOTHING to help win pkayoff games. It took philip rivers and an lt injury for sd to win a playoff game.

[Ravage!!!]

Im glad you are seeing be light. Just think, the most dynamic teams in the offense dont have a #1 rb.


Pay attention to the arguement at hand. Neither are top franchise backs in the nfl. Instead of changing someone elses argument, try creating your own.

Hey dick, I'm sorry you make statements that your opinion can't keep up with. The fact is, I consider Super Bowl WINNING teams "dynamic"... and you think that neither of them have #1 RBs. You are wrong. You are just blowing shit out of your ass and hoping people call it oatmeal. You want to change it to "not having a #1" .. to "not having the BEST #1"... because it doesn't fit what you said.

When you can figure out what you want to say, come back and word it so that ALLLLLL your bases are covered.....k?

[gregbroncs]

He is in no way worse than Ball. I was very disappointed that Ball made the roster at all. I think he's a terrible back. If it were not for Willis's and Moreno's injury history I don't think Ball would be on the roster.

[topscribe]

Which ones came back from injuries and proved anyone wrong? Its not just a single injury, and its not that he's hurt. I've seen him when healthy, and he's just not special. That being said, I think MANY MANY RBs can do for the Broncos what Moreno has. Moreno does not have "upside" at this point. We've seen, over three years, what he is and what he's not. He's not a #1 back, that I promise you with guarantees.
Moreno may not be a #1 back, but Fox seems to think he may be a pretty
good #2. It took all of one day to vault him from #4 to #2 on the depth chart.
So he must be impressing somebody on staff.

I saw Moreno in his rookie year, when he kissed a 1,000 yard season. I haven't
seen him healthy since. So am I foolish to want to see him healthy to
determine really how good he's going to be as a veteran? My only question is
whether he can finally stay healthy.
.

[Canmore]

Moreno may not be a #1 back, but Fox seems to think he may be a pretty
good #2. It took all of one day to vault him from #4 to #2 on the depth chart.
So he must be impressing somebody on staff.

I saw Moreno in his rookie year, when he kissed a 1,000 yard season. I haven't
seen him healthy since. So am I foolish to want to see him healthy to
determine really how good he's going to be as a veteran? My only question is
whether he can finally stay healthy.
.

I just don't see Moreno staying healthy or doing anything remotely spectacular. I will be rooting to be wrong, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.

[Nomad]

Is injuries a players fault making him a bust or is it a stroke of bad luck?

[Canmore]

Is injuries a players fault making him a bust or is it a stroke of bad luck?

Probably a bit of both.

[Jsteve01]

Mcgahee came inti the nfl with a glass gina. Dude is a workhorse though.

right tearing up his knees horribly in that BCS championship game were all about him having a glass gina. Most people wouldn't have ever come back from an injury that bad. He went from a speedster do everything back to a truck you in the mouth back. Sorry that metaphor is no good with him.

[Simple Jaded]

I just don't see Moreno staying healthy or doing anything remotely spectacular. I will be rooting to be wrong, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.

Agreed. I'm actually looking forward to watching Slowshon in this offense.......

[Nomad]

Probably a bit of both.

So it's the players fault, because they didn't condition themselves better? I'm just getting the mindset how an injury correlates to a bad player.

One thing that I questioned in the Brock thread is answered here.....where a player is drafted, determines the expectation of that player.

[topscribe]

So it's the players fault, because they didn't condition themselves better? I'm just getting the mindset how an injury correlates to a bad player.

One thing that I questioned in the Brock thread is answered here.....where a player is drafted, determines the expectation of that player.
Well, you know, I wonder about some of the hammies and other pulls.

But when someone blows out an ACL, I hardly think it's because they're out of shape . . .
.

[Simple Jaded]

No, he was the consensus #1 RB and everyone had him in the top 15. Top 20 at the very least.

No, not really. Coach is right. There wasn't any RB that was a slam dunk 1st round pick, not like Stewart and Mendenhall the year before. Wells might have been but he was/is a bigger glass vag than Slowshon. Moreno was, and still is, a huge waste of the 12th overall pick, the people that had him as a 1st round talent missed the mark badly.

Also, as ordinary as he's been in Denver it's hard to figure out how he's attained this reputation as a good pass blocker.......

[Simple Jaded]

As long as he can stay healthy, he's as good a #2 RB as anyone else in the league IMO.

He has the ability, its just that he's built out of glass.
Jonathan Stewart, Ben Tate, Darren Sproles, Michael Bush, Toby Gerhart.......Knowshon Moreno? That's a stretch.......

[Simple Jaded]

Coming into the league from Georgia, he had all these skills and still does. Against better competition in the NFL, he's just not as good as college. As North said, perhaps where he was drafted set the expectations too high.

He is Kevin Faulk V2.0 and Kevin Faulk V1.0 had none of those skills.......

[Joel]

Yeah, no surprises here; I figured Dreesen would quickly become the starting TE he was in Houston. I was a big Moreno fan until he got hurt last year, but figured he was done after that; I would not be disappointed to be proven wrong, and Ball just looks awful to me.

[underrated29]

No, not really. Coach is right. There wasn't any RB that was a slam dunk 1st round pick, not like Stewart and Mendenhall the year before. Wells might have been but he was/is a bigger glass vag than Slowshon. Moreno was, and still is, a huge waste of the 12th overall pick, the people that had him as a 1st round talent missed the mark badly.

Also, as ordinary as he's been in Denver it's hard to figure out how he's attained this reputation as a good pass blocker.......



Not sure why...he is our best pass pro...elway recently said as much too....once in article and once during preseason game 4. Sorry u refuse to see it but we and the coaches have, link.

[Joel]

Come on...Jeremiah Johnson?

2500 yards and 18 touchdowns, or 139 yards and 0 touchdowns?

This isn't even close...
That's not fair and you know it; Moreno's had hundreds of carries and Johnson's had just over a dozen. Guess whose rushing AVERAGE is higher: Johnsons, by about a yard and a half. I'm not saying he's the next Terrell Davis, but he's shown real potential, and I still think he's a better blocker than Ball, which is why I'd rather have him on the final roster than Ball.


He's not a top back in the league, but I'm just saying. He's not some scrub. When given the oppurtunities, he has produced for us. The only thing you can put on him is his bad luck with injuries. You can't fault him for the OL letting guys into the backfield at the snap or McD pulling the plug on the run game whenever he got it going his rookie year.

Moreno has enough touches, several hundred, to compare career numbers.

I don't think Hillman is Moreno's replacement, but meant to be the 1b to Moreno in the future.
People don't seem to understand how much damage McDumbass did to our offensive line, which had been Denvers strength since Shanny took over. Ben Hamilton had been an excellent pulling guard and backup center for years, and Casey Wiegmann was a fine center (in fact he remained one through last year after McDumbass dumped him and KC snatched him back up again.) Instead we got Beadles and Walton, who are simply awful, and it's very difficult for any back to run well without good guards. A team with crappy passing can still run, and a team with crappy running can still pass, but a team with a crappy line can't run OR pass; that's why Denver always placed such a high value on it. And when one part of the offense wasn't clicking it was very easy to tell why, because we always had good blocking.

That's a perennial problem I hope Elway corrects soon, because he knows the score, but it's affected our whole offense ever since McDumbass trashed the line (though many of his skill position choices hurt, too.) We can talk about Fainting Goats, porcelain running backs, inconsistent receivers and erratic QBs, with some justification in many cases, but all those ills, real and imagined, would've been far less devastating with better line play, and the only reliable performer since Shanny left has been Kuper. I've already covered what happened at our other two G positions, we've had more RTs than I can count and Clady, despite a dominant first couple seasons, has since been hurt and hobbled nearly as much as Moreno. It's a tribute to McGahee that he's done as well as he has (his yards after contact last year were frightening, but only natural given how often he got hit at or behind the line.) The rest of the offense has been awful whoever was running or passing, a strong indicator our biggest problem was the line.

All of which to say: If McGahee had astounding yards after contact last year, you can bet Moreno's been getting hit just as hard, just as fast and for longer. It's quite possible they both missed lots of time last year, and Moreno has throughout his career to date, because they were simply getting hit too much. I know they're running backs and expect to get hit, but it shouldn't happen twice before they reach the LoS.

[MOtorboat]

That's not fair and you know it; Moreno's had hundreds of carries and Johnson's had just over a dozen. Guess whose rushing AVERAGE is higher: Johnsons, by about a yard and a half. I'm not saying he's the next Terrell Davis, but he's shown real potential, and I still think he's a better blocker than Ball, which is why I'd rather have him on the final roster than Ball.

It is 100 percent fair and accurate.

Jeremiah Johnson has shown so much potential he's been relegated to the practice squad two seasons in a row at a position that players make instant impacts at. He's on the south side of the Mendoza line for NFL running backs.

Moreno isn't. He's an NFL running back, talent wise and production wise, and judging from Fox's decisions the last two years, it's not even close.

[Simple Jaded]

Not sure why...he is our best pass pro...elway recently said as much too....once in article and once during preseason game 4. Sorry u refuse to see it but we and the coaches have, link.

I am positive that the coaches have seen Moreno get trucked, same as I have. Elway actually called Moreno great in protection, that's a huge stretch. Clinton Poorti$ was great in pass pro, Moreno doesn't stand out in any area.

I don't refuse to see Moreno do well, I'm as hopeful as ya'll are.......

[Northman]

right tearing up his knees horribly in that BCS championship game were all about him having a glass gina. Most people wouldn't have ever come back from an injury that bad. He went from a speedster do everything back to a truck you in the mouth back. Sorry that metaphor is no good with him.

Glad you said it. I would of tried to explain it too him but i dont think he would understand simple concepts like that.

[Dzone]

Its awesome that Moreno has come back strong from ACL surgery.

[broncofaninfla]

You mean addai is a poor mans moreno...Addai does Nothing better than moreno. And Knowshon is the BEST pass protector on our team. better than willis. He is also much better in open space.

I agree that Moreno seems to be our best running back at pass protection but he's shown me little that he is any better than Addai. I'd sure love for that to happen and I honestly think it can under Manning and this offense but until it does I'm calling it like I see it.

[ShaneFalco]

Has never been in a playoff game.

The top 20 Rbs have never won a superbowl.

RBs are so overrated in this day and age.

So glad he front office hasnt put a high premium on this position and overpaid for a low impact position.

Now if they could only cut Lance Balls.
what lol. he has 7 consecutive 1,000 yard seasons. Most in the NFL. Jackson is even a better pass protecter, receiving back then moreno....

Rams are just a bad team. Peterson almost went to the superbowl with Favre.

Bottom line is, jackson and peterson are the definition of what you should get out of a 1st round back. Not moreno. i dont even know why people try to act like Moreno is something he is not. Must be SAUCED. 1550

[Dzone]

Who would you rather have Knowshon Moreno or Beanie Wells? I think they were both first round picks in 2009.

[Ravage!!!]

Who would you rather have Knowshon Moreno or Beanie Wells? I think they were both first round picks in 2009.

Wells, imo, is a much harder runner. But he's going to lose his job to Ryan Williams soon.

[NightTerror218]

Wells, imo, is a much harder runner. But he's going to lose his job to Ryan Williams soon.

he was awesome last season.

[Ravage!!!]

he was awesome last season.

he was alright. But like I said, I'm pretty confident that he's going to lose his job this season to Williams. So I'm not sure "awesome" is the right word. But I don't think they want him to go anywhere either way.

[Northman]

Wells is definitely better than Moreno between the tackles. In 16 starts he has 2237 yds and 19 TD's. Moreno has 24 starts with 1907 yds and 12 TDs. But Moreno is better in the receiving game than Wells by a pretty big margin. But that is too be expected as i think that is where Moreno shines anyway.

[underrated29]

Moreno...Hands down.


Its funny, wells thinks he is a scat back. Moreno thinks he is a power back.- They have the wrong body type for both. Somehow they got switched running styles. I suspect somehow evil josh mcdammit was able to conjure up some sort of spell to do this.

[Buff]

Beanie Wells and it's not even close. But, you already knew I'd say that.

[underrated29]

Beanie Wells and it's not even close. But, you already knew I'd say that.



Buff, you, shaw and myself are all going to go out drinking at dave and busters in denver. You will love it. My cousin is the manager there- not only will he hook us up, but he will let me know when knowshon is in there. He goes in there quite a bit and plays the basketball game. We will get you in a picture with him and a big hug. It will be my sig forever and ever and ever and ever. When are you free?

[NightTerror218]

IMO Moreno is going to have more receiving yards then rushing yards.

[Buff]

Buff, you, shaw and myself are all going to go out drinking at dave and busters in denver. You will love it. My cousin is the manager there- not only will he hook us up, but he will let me know when knowshon is in there. He goes in there quite a bit and plays the basketball game. We will get you in a picture with him and a big hug. It will be my sig forever and ever and ever and ever. When are you free?

Of course he hangs out at D&B - he has all the maturity of a 12 year old.

[underrated29]

Of course he hangs out at D&B - he has all the maturity of a 12 year old.



Don't talk about my cousin that way.

[Simple Jaded]

Who would you rather have Knowshon Moreno or Beanie Wells? I think they were both first round picks in 2009.

I'll take what's behind curtain #3. The 2nd round pick from Pitt.......

[Chef Zambini]

I hope a healthy hillman can take over the job !

[silkamilkamonico]

Hillman is going to be a stud. Dude is shifty as ----

[MOtorboat]

I hope a healthy hillman can take over the job !

Hillman is third string. Shouldn't you be freaking the **** out and spamming this thread?

[shank]

Of course he hangs out at D&B - he has all the maturity of a 12 year old.

what in the **** do you know about his maturity level? now you're just making things up to not like about him. it's a slippery slope to douche town buff, and zam is waiting for you with open arms.

[SR]

Buff, I love you (not like "that", though), but I hope Moreno has a huge year just so you'll shut the **** up about him already. Quit acting like Zam.

[Northman]

Buff must be rubbing some people the wrong way. lol

[chaoticmayhem]

The talent God forgot to give Moreno; speed, vision, balance, power and durability. Other than that he's a natural.......


exactly. he's nothing special. He has the same talent as Ball except he's always hurt.

[Buff]

what in the **** do you know about his maturity level? now you're just making things up to not like about him. it's a slippery slope to douche town buff, and zam is waiting for you with open arms.

The ******* guy had personalized plates that said "sauced" when he got a DUI.

[Buff]

Buff, I love you (not like "that", though), but I hope Moreno has a huge year just so you'll shut the **** up about him already. Quit acting like Zam.

I hope he has a huge year too. But in the meantime I'm going to point out that he has been a horrible RB up to this point in his career.

[Buff]

Buff must be rubbing some people the wrong way. lol

These ******** are rubbing me the wrong way.

[SR]

I hope he has a huge year too. But in the meantime I'm going to point out that he has been a horrible RB up to this point in his career.

Yeah, he has had some bad luck with injuries, but that's not to say the guy isn't talented. Obviously he isn't a between the tackles every down back, but in space and outside the tackles he's pretty good. Give the guy some credit and a bit of a chance instead of flaming him every chance you get.

[Buff]

Yeah, he has had some bad luck with injuries, but that's not to say the guy isn't talented. Obviously he isn't a between the tackles every down back, but in space and outside the tackles he's pretty good. Give the guy some credit and a bit of a chance instead of flaming him every chance you get.

No.

[SR]

No.

Then keep looking like a moron. Fine by me.

[BroncoJoe]

No.

Short, concise and to the point.

[SR]

Short, concise and to the point.

At least he holds the fort down with his opinions. Can't fault the guy for that.

[hotcarl]

knowshow morelo is going to blow CHUNKS! get lost with that captain and teneil b.S. we dont need your peaches and cream around here georgia donw home cooklin. get LOST TEBOW, there is no wexokcuse for htis hjapdf. ik,, tiits time for oyiu top get a new dog in town!!! HAM OFF!

[chazoe60]

knowshow morelo is going to blow CHUNKS! get lost with that captain and teneil b.S. we dont need your peaches and cream around here georgia donw home cooklin. get LOST TEBOW, there is no wexokcuse for htis hjapdf. ik,, tiits time for oyiu top get a new dog in town!!! HAM OFF!

Short, concise and to the point.

[Northman]

Ill just call him Mostafa Beano. Sounds better.

[dogfish]

Short, concise and to the point.

sounds like MO. . .

[BroncoJoe]

sounds like MO. . .

HA! I was going to put a disclaimer on that...

[Simple Jaded]

knowshow morelo is going to blow CHUNKS! get lost with that captain and teneil b.S. we dont need your peaches and cream around here georgia donw home cooklin. get LOST TEBOW, there is no wexokcuse for htis hjapdf. ik,, tiits time for oyiu top get a new dog in town!!! HAM OFF!

It's always time for tiits.......

[Dzone]

knowshow morelo is going to blow CHUNKS! get lost with that captain and teneil b.S. we dont need your peaches and cream around here georgia donw home cooklin. get LOST TEBOW, there is no wexokcuse for htis hjapdf. ik,, tiits time for oyiu top get a new dog in town!!! HAM OFF!
Oh hell ya, Reunited and It feels so goooood...I like Peaches and Herbs..cough cough

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/malibubluff/reunited.jpg