Just when I think I couldn't think less of McKid

[Dean]

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/What-happens-after-a-player-gets-cut.html

Nate Jackson gives us a peek at how McKid handles his players.



What happens after a player gets cut?

A former player walks us through the process and the pain of being released. Nate Jackson


A few weeks after the new hire, I got a call from my agent. “The Broncos are releasing you today”, he said. “Didn’t they call you?” No they didn’t. It turned out the GM called my parents’ home phone and left a message instead. My phone call to Coach McDaniels went unreturned.

Nate Jackson played six seasons for the Broncos. He is a freelance writer and is currently writing a book about life in the NFL, to be published by Harper Collins.

[topscribe]

And now we have the basis for imagining what went on in McDaniels' office the
day Cutler came and met with him.

McDaniels couldn't have done a better job for Belichick, had Belichick assigned
McDaniels to come to Denver and ruin the franchise. Without the genius of
John Elway, the Broncos would still be in a shambles . . .
.
.

[Davii]

More so than McDouche, that story gives some great perspective on the guys NOT on our jerseys when we don't our fan apparel. For every multi millionaire star player there are 10 Jacksons. Sounds like a rough existence. I wouldn't say I "feel bad" for them, they chased and knd of lived their dream, but I can certainly sympathize.

[topscribe]

More so than McDouche, that story gives some great perspective on the guys NOT on our jerseys when we don't our fan apparel. For every multi millionaire star player there are 10 Jacksons. Sounds like a rough existence. I wouldn't say I "feel bad" for them, they chased and knd of lived their dream, but I can certainly sympathize.
I think the problem here, though, is how McDaniels handled the situations.
Jackson found out through his agent, who apparently got it through the media.
And then McDaniels did not return Jackson's phone call. I can't envision Elway/
Fox doing it that way . . .
.

[Davii]

I think the problem here, though, is how McDaniels handled the situations.
Jackson found out through his agent, who apparently got it through the media.
And then McDaniels did not return Jackson's phone call. I can't envision Elway/
Fox doing it that way . . .
.


Nor can I. Elway's decisions, such as letting Orton move on mid season, are a good chunk of why free agents would want to come here.

[Simple Jaded]

And now we have the basis for imagining what went on in McDaniels' office the
day Cutler came and met with him.

McDaniels couldn't have done a better job for Belichick, had Belichick assigned
McDaniels to come to Denver and ruin the franchise. Without the genius of
John Elway, the Broncos would still be in a shambles . . .
.
.
I didn't give that conspiracy theory much weight, just thought it was amusing, until I read about the trade proposal that Skins offered McDaniels while he was on the clock and getting ready to waste the 12th overall pick on the Next Kevin Faulk. They wanted Orakpo and were willing to give up a draft pick to make it worth McDaniels' while to choose a different player.

Instead of taking the easy money McDaniels replied with a chuckle saying "don't worry, you'll get your man".

McDaniels couldn't have ****** this team up worse if he tried, unless he was trying, in which case he did a hell of a job.......

[BroncoWave]

And now we have the basis for imagining what went on in McDaniels' office the
day Cutler came and met with him.

McDaniels couldn't have done a better job for Belichick, had Belichick assigned
McDaniels to come to Denver and ruin the franchise. Without the genius of
John Elway, the Broncos would still be in a shambles . . .
.
.

I just don't buy into this tinfoil hat theory. Why would he intentionally torpedo his head coaching career for the Patriots?

[topscribe]

I didn't give that conspiracy theory much weight, just thought it was amusing, until I read about the trade proposal that Skins offered McDaniels while he was on the clock and getting ready to waste the 12th overall pick on the Next Kevin Faulk. They wanted Orakpo and were willing to give up a draft pick to make it worth McDaniels' while to choose a different player.

Instead of taking the easy money McDaniels replied with a chuckle saying "don't worry, you'll get your man".

McDaniels couldn't have ****** this team up worse if he tried, unless he was trying, in which case he did a hell of a job.......


I just don't buy into this tinfoil hat theory. Why would he intentionally torpedo his head coaching career for the Patriots?
Just to clarify, I did not accuse him of that. What my post said was IF Belichick
had done that, then McD could not have done a better job. I never meant to
say that they did that. I don't know anything about any "conspiracy theory."
.

[Dean]

McKid simply had no people skills what so ever. IMO he thought that he needed to show that he was in control. He was the boss. He could treat people however he wanted like taking the coaching staff into Bowlen's office and berating them.

I guess that it didn't occur to him that in today's world people will not and should not accept being treated as stock.

I, like you, wonder if Cutler just found out what a sorry excuse for a person McKid was before the rest and said later fool.

[sneakers]

Who's Josh McDaniels? Sounds familiar, but I seem to forget who this is.....

[Ravage!!!]

I will never forget. T hat way, if he ever happens to cross my sights, I won't hesitate on the pull.

[Simple Jaded]

I just don't buy into this tinfoil hat theory. Why would he intentionally torpedo his head coaching career for the Patriots?

Because he's obscenely stupid and thoroughly dysfunctional?.......

[DenBronx]

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/What-happens-after-a-player-gets-cut.html

Nate Jackson gives us a peek at how McKid handles his players.



What happens after a player gets cut?

A former player walks us through the process and the pain of being released. Nate Jackson


A few weeks after the new hire, I got a call from my agent. “The Broncos are releasing you today”, he said. “Didn’t they call you?” No they didn’t. It turned out the GM called my parents’ home phone and left a message instead. My phone call to Coach McDaniels went unreturned.

Nate Jackson played six seasons for the Broncos. He is a freelance writer and is currently writing a book about life in the NFL, to be published by Harper Collins.

I put the majority blame on McDumnut but don't you think Xanders had a hand in this too?

Also, IRRC alot of Broncos fans were happy that Nate finally got cut. Something along the lines of, "Yes, we're finally cutting the crap." I don't remember Nate tearing it up on the field and if there was a TE that we should have kept then it was Scheffler, who is still in the league and starting for the Lions. I was more upset about the Sheff trade then releasing Jackson, although I did like Jackson. But it was deffinitely a dick move by McD to not return a phone call or explain to Nate why he was cut.

[MOtorboat]

I put the majority blame on McDumnut but don't you think Xanders had a hand in this too?

Also, IRRC alot of Broncos fans were happy that Nate finally got cut. Something along the lines of, "Yes, we're finally cutting the crap." I don't remember Nate tearing it up on the field and if there was a TE that we should have kept then it was Scheffler, who is still in the league and starting for the Lions. I was more upset about the Sheff trade then releasing Jackson, although I did like Jackson. But it was deffinitely a dick move by McD to not return a phone call or explain to Nate why he was cut.

Ah, yes. But he was cut by McDaniels. Therefore, he is a folk hero.

[MOtorboat]

Tony Scheffler, 10.2 YPR.

Every Broncos tight end after he was traded, 11.0 YPR.

[Simple Jaded]

I don't have a problem with McDaniels cutting Nasty Nate, I have no idea how he kept a job so long. Jackson and Ben Hamilton.......

[Ravage!!!]

Ah, yes. But he was cut by McDaniels. Therefore, he is a folk hero.

Jeeez. Here you go again.

It has NOTHING to do with the PERSON being cut. its the CLASSLESS way in which he did it...a nd its just another example as to just how CRAPPY a person, and a coach, he is. He has absolutely ZERO people skills. Hell, he had no coaching skills.

But I guess...if since he got rid of people you didn't like, he's YOUR folk hero.

I think that its funny that you defend McDoosh, MO, considering how much crap you give people that defend Tebow. At least Tebow had some redeeming qualities. I don't think McDick has a single one that I would want to keep on this team.

[Nomad]

Also, IRRC alot of Broncos fans were happy that Nate finally got cut. .

Natemania wasn't too happy:lol:

[shank]

post 33, can't not. (http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?98305-The-quot-Release-Nate-Jackson-quot-Movement/page3&highlight=nate)

[Jsteve01]

Ah, yes. But he was cut by McDaniels. Therefore, he is a folk hero.

Jeeez. Here you go again.

It has NOTHING to do with the PERSON being cut. its the CLASSLESS way in which he did it...a nd its just another example as to just how CRAPPY a person, and a coach, he is. He has absolutely ZERO people skills. Hell, he had no coaching skills.

But I guess...if since he got rid of people you didn't like, he's YOUR folk hero.

I think that its funny that you defend McDoosh, MO, considering how much crap you give people that defend Tebow. At least Tebow had some redeeming qualities. I don't think McDick has a single one that I would want to keep on this team.beoahaha. Truth. Mo he has a point. You and iboth defended McDonald for far too long. Watched him cut a special teams ace. Trade a talented young qb,te and wr. Cuts pro bowl center. Stumble and bumble his way through two horrid drafts. And then chase off the Guy who had somehow made our defense look respectable. There is nothing there to defend. I can say without a doubt that his regime was hands down the worst I've ever seen in the NFL.

[rationalfan]

You know what I like about Nate Jackson? That he rips on other coaches aside from mcd, and doesn't make it seem like the world was perfect before mcd.

[Jsteve01]

You know what I like about Nate Jackson? That he rips on other coaches aside from mcd, and doesn't make it seem like the world was perfect before mcd.have you ever in your entire life heard of someone not only not getting called into the coachs office but having the GM leave a message on the parents answering machine. McDonald was horrid. There is no reason to continue acting as an apologist. I once lived there too and it is freeing to finally admit that you devoted year of your life defending the indefensible.

[claymore]

Man Motorboat was wrong about McDaniels. :SMH:

[broncobryce]

Boo hoo. The GM called him and he didn't answer so they left him a message. Cry me a river.

[claymore]

Boo hoo. The GM called him and he didn't answer so they left him a message. Cry me a river.
If you dont think thats shitty then you have a personality disorder.

[rationalfan]

You know what I like about Nate Jackson? That he rips on other coaches aside from mcd, and doesn't make it seem like the world was perfect before mcd.have you ever in your entire life heard of someone not only not getting called into the coachs office but having the GM leave a message on the parents answering machine. McDonald was horrid. There is no reason to continue acting as an apologist. I once lived there too and it is freeing to finally admit that you devoted year of your life defending the indefensible.

Actually , that sounds like corporate America.

My thing isn't sticking up for mcd but pointing out the blind disgust people have for him, a perspective that causes a lot of narrow thought paths and a great deal of revisionist history.

As I've posted before, mcd made a lot mistakes. But so did shanahan. In my mind they're equally responsible for the broncos' recent dark times.

[TXBRONC]

Tony Scheffler, 10.2 YPR.

Every Broncos tight end after he was traded, 11.0 YPR.

No. Richard Quinn had one reception between 2009-2010 for all of 9 yards. Btw In Scheffler's only year with McDork at the helm he had a ypr of 13.4. In fact his lowest out put in the four years that he was in Denver was 11.2. I know you bought into all the crap that McDaniels shoveled but making things up is pathetic.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/ScheTo00.htm

[MOtorboat]

No. Richard Quinn had one reception between 2009-2010 for all of 9 yards. Btw I don't if you're just trying throw poop on a wall or what because in his only year with McDork at the helm he had a ypr of 13.4. In fact his lowest out put in the four years that he was in Denver was 11.2. I know you bought into all the crap that McDaniels shoveled but making things up is pathetic.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/ScheTo00.htm

I didn't make anything up. Sorry you didn't comprehend the stat.

[MOtorboat]

Yeah I just proved you're making things up.

Look up the definition of an average and get back to me.

[MOtorboat]

Genius ypr is yards per reception. Care to try again?

Because you're not smart enough to understand the stat.

Tony Scheffler has averaged 10 yards per catch since leaving Denver. All of Denver's tight ends (Here's the key) combined have averaged 10.2. So letting go of him isn't that big of a damn deal. People make it a big deal because they want reasons to hate McDaniels.

[MOtorboat]

Now if you like to go with what he averaged over the years he was in Denver simple math will show you that his average ypr was 14 over the years he was in Denver.

That's nice.

[TXBRONC]

Because you're not smart enough to understand the stat.

Tony Scheffler has averaged 10 yards per catch since leaving Denver. All of Denver's tight ends (Here's the key) combined have averaged 10.2. So letting go of him isn't that big of a damn deal. People make it a big deal because they want reasons to hate McDaniels.

Ah no. Here are his yprs for the years in was in Denver 15.9, 11.2, 16.1, and 13.4. Anyone that can do simple math know that works out to a ypr of 14.

[MOtorboat]

Ah no. Here are his yprs for the years in was in Denver 15.9,

Wow.

[MOtorboat]

I accidently sent it before I had finded genius and now I've fixed it and you're wrong.

This is hilarious. You're reading comp REALLY sucks.

[Dean]

Because you're not smart enough to understand the stat.

Tony Scheffler has averaged 10 yards per catch since leaving Denver. All of Denver's tight ends (Here's the key) combined have averaged 10.2. So letting go of him isn't that big of a damn deal. People make it a big deal because they want reasons to hate McDaniels.

You're kidding, right? People don't have to look for reasons to dislike McKid. He gave us two years of nearly weekly reasons to dislike him. Well. . . to each his own.

[MOtorboat]

Here's your initiate post genius. Doesn't indicate in any way, shape, or form that what your talking about is what Scheffler averaged since leaving Denver. I suggest you either learn to write more clearly. It's a dishonest argument use just his last two year Detriot to try make your point. In Denver his average ypr was 14 and if you want include what he's done in Detriot it's 12.5.

It's not dishonest at all. It's what has happened in both places the last two years.

[TXBRONC]

It's not dishonest at all. It's what has happened in both places the last two years.

Yes it is dishonest for two reasons. First you made no indication you were talking about the last two years. Second now you're basing your agrument what he's doing with a different team and then declaring we didn't lose much. The stats show McDaniels got rid of guy who had a ypr of 14 while he was with Broncos. That's what we lost. We didn't lose guy who has a ypr of 10.2 we lost a guy who had ypr of 14. MO that isn't being honest.

[MOtorboat]

Yes it is dishonest for two reasons. First you made no indication you were talking about the last two years. Second now you're basing your agrument what he's doing with a different team and then declaring we didn't lose much. The stats show McDaniels got rid of guy who had a ypr of 14 while he was with Broncos. That's what we lost. We didn't lose guy who has a ypr of 10.2 we lost a guy who had ypr of 14. MO that isn't being honest.

You're arguing hypotheticals. Which is fine, but we lost a guy who HAD averaged 14 and IS now averaging 10.2. I don't know what he would have done in Denver, but I know Denver's tight ends have been just as good as he IS now. Thus why I'm just not worried at all about him being gone.

[TXBRONC]

MO I apologize for the harness of my other posts. I'm going to delete other up to post 41.

[bcbronc]

honestly, who gives a shit about McDaniels at this point. I'm excited about where this team is TODAY and where it looks like we'll be in the next few years. McDaniel's is part of the reason for where we are TODAY. Sure he was a major douche, but you know what, Shanny had his douche moments, so did Tuna, Jimmy Johnson was an egomaniac, etc etc. Heck, Belichick is the best coach of his generation and no one confuses his personality with Tony Dungy.

Being a dick is fine if you have success. McDaniels didn't, he got canned, and now we have a team that should make some noise this year and the next couple at least. This organization was in dire need of a purge, McDaniels did that, now lets move on and be excited that Denver is relevant again (and not just because of the circus surrounding a back-up QB).

[Northman]

No one has to worry about what Sheff is doing elsewhere (or any player that McD traded away for that matter) but it doesnt exclude him from the totally moronic things that he did while he was in Denver. At this point whats done is done but as Dean stated, it wasnt like McDaniels didnt give the fans reason to have animosity towards him. The guy flat out sucked as a HC, sucked when it came to getting along with players and even parts of his own coaching staff. Call it inexperience, call it bad judgement, its of no consequence. Nothing that has been said about McDaniels is fabricated or made up. The guy was a trainwreck and this organization is much much better off without him. To say otherwise is just naive.

[TXBRONC]

You're arguing hypothetical. Which is fine, but we lost a guy who HAD averaged 14 and IS now averaging 10.2. I don't know what he would have done in Denver, but I know Denver's tight ends have been just as good as he IS now. Thus why I'm just not worried at all about him being gone.

I'm the one arguing hypotheticals? Not hardly. You're all over the map on this one. First you said we didn't lose much because of he's done the last two years in Detroit and now you're saying you don't what he would do in Denver. Stick to one thing or the other man. The empirical evidence is that when he was in Denver and had a major role in offense he was very productive. What he's doing in Detroit is good measuring stick for current our tight ends because all that says it out best is no better than a guy who isn't playing very much for whatever the reasons.

[MOtorboat]

I'm the one arguing hypotheticals? Not hardly. You're all over the map on this one. First you said we didn't lose much because of he's done the last two years in Detroit and now you're saying you don't what he would do in Denver. Stick to one thing or the other man. The empirical evidence is that when he was in Denver and had a major role in offense he was very productive. What he's doing in Detroit is good measuring stick for current our tight ends because all that says it out best is no better than a guy who isn't playing very much for whatever the reasons.

I'm not all over the map on anything. I, nor you, nor anyone else knows what he was going to do in Denver. I do know what he's done in Detroit, and it's just as good, if not a little worse than the tight ends Denver has had.

[rationalfan]

honestly, who gives a shit about McDaniels at this point. I'm excited about where this team is TODAY and where it looks like we'll be in the next few years. McDaniel's is part of the reason for where we are TODAY. Sure he was a major douche, but you know what, Shanny had his douche moments, so did Tuna, Jimmy Johnson was an egomaniac, etc etc. Heck, Belichick is the best coach of his generation and no one confuses his personality with Tony Dungy.

Being a dick is fine if you have success. McDaniels didn't, he got canned, and now we have a team that should make some noise this year and the next couple at least. This organization was in dire need of a purge, McDaniels did that, now lets move on and be excited that Denver is relevant again (and not just because of the circus surrounding a back-up QB).

I really like this post.

[TXBRONC]

No one has to worry about what Sheff is doing elsewhere (or any player that McD traded away for that matter) but it doesnt exclude him from the totally moronic things that he did while he was in Denver. At this point whats done is done but as Dean stated, it wasnt like McDaniels didnt give the fans reason to have animosity towards him. The guy flat out sucked as a HC, sucked when it came to getting along with players and even parts of his own coaching staff. Call it inexperience, call it bad judgement, its of no consequence. Nothing that has been said about McDaniels is fabricated or made up. The guy was a trainwreck and this organization is much much better off without him. To say otherwise is just naive.

Well said. :beer:

[BroncoWave]

My thing isn't sticking up for mcd but pointing out the blind disgust people have for him, a perspective that causes a lot of narrow thought paths and a great deal of revisionist history.

This is one of the best posts I've seen summing up the McD hatefest. The revisionist history is unbelievable. You would think guys like Hillis and Scheff were Canton bound the way McD is reviled for getting rid of them.

[topscribe]

honestly, who gives a shit about McDaniels at this point. I'm excited about where this team is TODAY and where it looks like we'll be in the next few years. McDaniel's is part of the reason for where we are TODAY. Sure he was a major douche, but you know what, Shanny had his douche moments, so did Tuna, Jimmy Johnson was an egomaniac, etc etc. Heck, Belichick is the best coach of his generation and no one confuses his personality with Tony Dungy.

Being a dick is fine if you have success. McDaniels didn't, he got canned, and now we have a team that should make some noise this year and the next couple at least. This organization was in dire need of a purge, McDaniels did that, now lets move on and be excited that Denver is relevant again (and not just because of the circus surrounding a back-up QB).
Shanny, Tuna, J. Johnson, Belichick, or Dungy never came close to what McDaniels achieved here.

Not a one of them dismantled the #2 offense in the league, then made up for it by assembling the #32 defense in the league. Not one.
.

[Cugel]

I think the problem here, though, is how McDaniels handled the situations.
Jackson found out through his agent, who apparently got it through the media.
And then McDaniels did not return Jackson's phone call. I can't envision Elway/
Fox doing it that way . . .
.


If you've watched NFL Hard Knocks TOP you realize that NOBODY does it that way.

According to Ted Sundquist, and confirmed by every single season of Hard Knocks, teams generally call players in to the facility and have them meet with the GM or assistant GM. Some meetings are perfunctory "we've decided to go in a different direction" while others (usually the better run organizations like Mike Shanahan) sit down with the player and candidly tell them what the coaches thought "we liked your intensity, but you made too many mental mistakes."

McMoron was simply utterly incompetent at every single aspect of running a football team. What I wonder is "how the hell did they even get his play-book back if they didn't even meet with him?" Did they just forget about it? You just don't DO things like that.

Forget about courtesy and professionalism. Did they expect they could cut players over the phone and have them mail their playbooks in?

And Brian Xanders? Don't let that door hit you on your ass on the way out of town, you worthless d-bag!

He managed to avoid his share of the blame for far too long, but his worthlessness caught up to him in the end. Now, for the first time in a long while, the apple is free of worms! :beer:

[bcbronc]

Shanny, Tuna, J. Johnson, Belichick, or Dungy never came close to what McDaniels achieved here.

Not a one of them dismantled the #2 offense in the league, then made up for it by assembling the #32 defense in the league. Not one.
.

lol, #2 offense that couldn't put points up on the board. Colour me unimpressed.

Since that trade: Cutler set a record for picks in a season and played like crap in the NFCCG his defense got him to; Marshall has been dealt for LESS than we got for him; Hillis was a locker room distraction and nearly run out of CLE; and Scheff has been a solid #2 TE on a team with some of the best offensive weapons in the league.

Yes or no: would you trade right now today: Cutler + Marshall + Scheffler + Hillis for Manning + DThomas + Decker + McGahee?

If your answer is NO, then considering our defense is light years from what it was when Shanny was fired, the McDaniels era has been a net benefit. I've said it before, but I'll take two years of McDaniels for a decade of Von no problem.

If your answer is YES, lol.

McDaniel's a douche and has no clue how to deal with power. He's also younger than I am. Hopefully he took some lessons from his experience here and grows as a person. If not, who gives a shit? The team today is better than the one he inherited and it's not even close imo. That's all that matters because McDaniel isn't associated with our team anymore.

[jhildebrand]

Tony Scheffler, 10.2 YPR.

Every Broncos tight end after he was traded, 11.0 YPR.

Lies, Damn lies, and statistics. This acts as though McDaniels threw to the TE's with any sort of regularity. :lol: It may as well have been a dead position other than trading up for Quinn. That was a waste. Trading up for Smurf. Waste. But I guess those of us who dislike him (me from day 1), are just blowing things out of proportion. :rolleyes:

[MOtorboat]

Lies, Damn lies, and statistics. This acts as though McDaniels threw to the TE's with any sort of regularity. :lol: It may as well have been a dead position other than trading up for Quinn. That was a waste. Trading up for Smurf. Waste. But I guess those of us who dislike him (me from day 1), are just blowing things out of proportion. :rolleyes:

So you're upset with McDaniels because he didn't throw to the tight ends, yet one he traded had a worse YPR than the one's he kept, and you're laughing at ME?

LOL. Like BC said, people blow the McDaniels shit so out of proportion it's preposterous and nauseating.

"Set back a decade" was the battle call. Yet ONE year (I'll repeat that for the slow, ONE YEAR) after he left Denver was in the playoffs with the worst quarterback in the NFL. How does a team with the worst quarterback in the NFL make the playoffs if the talent is as depleted as people say it was?

Reality tells us the talent pool wasn't as bleak as those who hate McDaniels want us to believe.

[topscribe]

lol, #2 offense that couldn't put points up on the board. Colour me unimpressed.

Since that trade: Cutler set a record for picks in a season and played like crap in the NFCCG his defense got him to; Marshall has been dealt for LESS than we got for him; Hillis was a locker room distraction and nearly run out of CLE; and Scheff has been a solid #2 TE on a team with some of the best offensive weapons in the league.

Yes or no: would you trade right now today: Cutler + Marshall + Scheffler + Hillis for Manning + DThomas + Decker + McGahee?

If your answer is NO, then considering our defense is light years from what it was when Shanny was fired, the McDaniels era has been a net benefit. I've said it before, but I'll take two years of McDaniels for a decade of Von no problem.

If your answer is YES, lol.

McDaniel's a douche and has no clue how to deal with power. He's also younger than I am. Hopefully he took some lessons from his experience here and grows as a person. If not, who gives a shit? The team today is better than the one he inherited and it's not even close imo. That's all that matters because McDaniel isn't associated with our team anymore.
Then go to another thread. This one is about McDaniels.
.

[bcbronc]

Then go to another thread. This one is about McDaniels.
.

Agreed, your position is ridiculous and crumbles under any scrutiny. Someone post the "old man yells at clouds" gif.

:coffee:

[Simple Jaded]

As I've posted before, mcd made a lot mistakes. But so did shanahan. In my mind they're equally responsible for the broncos' recent dark times.
Yeah, if Shanatan didn't deal Josh McDaniels a peach of a hand McDaniels couldn't have totally ****** it up.......

[rationalfan]

Yeah, if Shanatan didn't deal Josh McDaniels a peach of a hand McDaniels couldn't have totally ****** it up.......

a peach. right. like shanahan's years of overspending in free agency and creating a mound of dead cap space. like his years of horrid drafting (trading up for mediocre/poor pass rushers, drafting only DBs, etc.) that led to that one "great" draft class everyone raves about. like the way he let his locker room spin out of control around a group of young divas who didn't feel they had to play by the same rules as everyone else. or how he had one of the worst depth charts in the league (which is why the team generally started strong and faded in the final half of the season).

yeah, he did a fine job in his last few years.

and, just to clarify, i still admire much of what shanahan did with the broncos. but i'm not going to pretend everything was great while he was in denver.

[BroncoJoe]

So, everyone is crying about a guy who spend a few years on the Broncos, got cut, and is now out of football?

Sounds to me like he spent too much time on an NFL roster...

[TXBRONC]

lol, #2 offense that couldn't put points up on the board. Colour me unimpressed.

Since that trade: Cutler set a record for picks in a season and played like crap in the NFCCG his defense got him to; Marshall has been dealt for LESS than we got for him; Hillis was a locker room distraction and nearly run out of CLE; and Scheff has been a solid #2 TE on a team with some of the best offensive weapons in the league.

Yes or no: would you trade right now today: Cutler + Marshall + Scheffler + Hillis for Manning + DThomas + Decker + McGahee?

If your answer is NO, then considering our defense is light years from what it was when Shanny was fired, the McDaniels era has been a net benefit. I've said it before, but I'll take two years of McDaniels for a decade of Von no problem.

If your answer is YES, lol.

McDaniel's a douche and has no clue how to deal with power. He's also younger than I am. Hopefully he took some lessons from his experience here and grows as a person. If not, who gives a shit? The team today is better than the one he inherited and it's not even close imo. That's all that matters because McDaniel isn't associated with our team anymore.

Where do get your information tha Cutler set a record for interceptions? It's inaccurate at best.

[TXBRONC]

So you're upset with McDaniels because he didn't throw to the tight ends, yet one he traded had a worse YPR than the one's he kept, and you're laughing at ME?

LOL. Like BC said, people blow the McDaniels shit so out of proportion it's preposterous and nauseating.

"Set back a decade" was the battle call. Yet ONE year (I'll repeat that for the slow, ONE YEAR) after he left Denver was in the playoffs with the worst quarterback in the NFL. How does a team with the worst quarterback in the NFL make the playoffs if the talent is as depleted as people say it was?

Reality tells us the talent pool wasn't as bleak as those who hate McDaniels want us to believe.

It's no more nauseating than the inaccuracies and misleading posts you've put out. :wave:

[Northman]

Gosh, cant we ever go a day without bringing up Cutler!









/sarcasm

[Ravage!!!]

lol,

Yes or no: would you trade right now today: Cutler + Marshall + Scheffler + Hillis for Manning + DThomas + Decker + McGahee?



Hmmmm... trick question. What would we have gotten in all the draft picks used up on replacements for the players we already had????? Can you give me those names first, please?

[MOtorboat]

Where do get your information tha Cutler set a record for interceptions? It's inaccurate at best.

Well, fair enough. It wasn't a record, but you have to go back to 1947 to find a Bears quarterback who threw as many interceptions.


It's no more nauseating than the b.s inaccuracy that you spew out.

Lol. When you look at it a little more objectively, it's not quite as bad as you want it to be. The way people act, you'd think it was 15 years of losing.

[Ravage!!!]

Well, fair enough. It wasn't a record, but you have to go back to 1947 to find a Bears quarterback who threw as many interceptions.
WOW.. big EFFING deal!! :lol: Holy shit. Everyone knows that Cutler is the best QB that franchise has ever had, and you want to throw this shit!??! ahaha.. MO, seriously....seriously...... this is Zam type of posting. You are better than this.

[MOtorboat]

WOW.. big EFFING deal!! :lol: Holy shit. Everyone knows that Cutler is the best QB that franchise has ever had, and you want to throw this shit!??! ahaha.. MO, seriously....seriously...... this is Zam type of posting. You are better than this.

What did I post that was not true?

[TXBRONC]

Well, fair enough. It wasn't a record, but you have to go back to 1947 to find a Bears quarterback who threw as many interceptions.



Lol. When you look at it a little more objectively, it's not quite as bad as you want it to be. The way people act, you'd think it was 15 years of losing.

You call your swill objective? :rofl:

[BroncoNut]

I don't have a problem with McDaniels cutting Nasty Nate, I have no idea how he kept a job so long. Jackson and Ben Hamilton.......

honestly, i think the conduct of McDaniels was dismissed at first as growing pains/beginner mistakes, he'll learn type of thing. then as it went on it was surreal for awhile, and after that cleared it was WOW. this kid is actually incompetent and an incredible butthole. that's my take anyway. ah well, on these stories ,wiht Nate for example, life will come aorund and take a proportionate bite out of his ass. Isn't that right NTL?

[silkamilkamonico]

Why has this sidetracked towards one player in Cutler. The guy is barely a top 12 QB (if that) in the game today and he's almost 30. He's arguably the best QB CHicago has ever had. That's a testament to how bad Chicago Qb's have been, not how good Jay Cutler is.

[Northman]

Lol. When you look at it a little more objectively, it's not quite as bad as you want it to be. The way people act, you'd think it was 15 years of losing.

Well, hate to go down this path but the same can be said about Tebow. Im glad we have moved on but it wasnt NEAR as bad as some people try to paint it. hint hint. :elefant:

[MOtorboat]

Well, hate to go down this path but the same can be said about Tebow. Im glad we have moved on but it wasnt NEAR as bad as some people try to paint it. hint hint. :elefant:

Tebow was Akili Smith last year...worst thing McDaniels did was draft Tebow.

[Ravage!!!]

That wasn't the worst, it was just the cherry.

[BroncoNut]

WOW.. big EFFING deal!! :lol: Holy shit. Everyone knows that Cutler is the best QB that franchise has ever had, and you want to throw this shit!??! ahaha.. MO, seriously....seriously...... this is Zam type of posting. You are better than this.

ummm. hate to break it to you, but no, he is not. Zam and Mo are 2 peas in a pod. they suffer from the same syndrome and the manifestation in each is basicall the same.

[TXBRONC]

Tebow was Akili Smith last year...worst thing McDaniels did was draft Tebow.


Come on. :lol:

Year one, McDaniels moves up in the second round by trading a future number one pick on a slow ass cornerback who couldn't cut as a nickle back and was traded the following season for a 7th round pick the following season. His lame ass excuse for such a poor pick? "I just didn't have time to prepare properly for the draft."

[rationalfan]

Come on. :lol:

Year one, McDaniels moves up in the second round by trading a future number one pick on a slow ass cornerback who couldn't cut as a nickle back and was traded the following season for a 7th round pick the following season. His lame ass excuse for such a poor pick? "I just didn't have time to prepare properly for the draft."

THIS is the kind of stuff McD should be criticized for; not the proper decorum on how to cut a player.

i feel like allen iverson with his "practice" rant. really? we're on here complaining about how McD cut a player who wasn't good enough to be a journeyman?

[MOtorboat]

Come on. :lol:

Year one, McDaniels moves up in the second round by trading a future number one pick on a slow ass cornerback who couldn't cut as a nickle back and was traded the following season for a 7th round pick the following season. His lame ass excuse for such a poor pick? "I just didn't have time to prepare properly for the draft."

I dunno, on the scale of bad draft picks, I'm going with the first round quarterback who can't complete basic throws to the second round cornerback who can't cut it as a nickel.

Both huge mistakes.

[Simple Jaded]

a peach. right. like shanahan's years of overspending in free agency and creating a mound of dead cap space. like his years of horrid drafting (trading up for mediocre/poor pass rushers, drafting only DBs, etc.) that led to that one "great" draft class everyone raves about. like the way he let his locker room spin out of control around a group of young divas who didn't feel they had to play by the same rules as everyone else. or how he had one of the worst depth charts in the league (which is why the team generally started strong and faded in the final half of the season).

yeah, he did a fine job in his last few years.

and, just to clarify, i still admire much of what shanahan did with the broncos. but i'm not going to pretend everything was great while he was in denver.When McDaniels took over he had one player in dead cap money, Travis Henry, and over 40 million in cap space. He took over a team with a loaded offense and clear/obvious issues on defense.

I'm not defending anything Shanatan did, other than the state of the team he left. Imo, the time had come and gone to fire Shanatan, about 2005-ish, but he had the offense on the right track and needed only to fix his defense, easier said than done.

Point is, the job McDaniels took over was by far the best job opening at the time. Just two years later it was the worst job opening.......

[MOtorboat]

When McDaniels took over he had one player in dead cap money, Travis Henry, and over 40 million in cap space. He took over a team with a loaded offense and clear/obvious issues on defense.

I'm not defending anything Shanatan did, other than the state of the team he left. Imo, the time had come and gone to fire Shanatan, about 2005-ish, but he had the offense on the right track and needed only to fix his defense, easier said than done.

Point is, the job McDaniels took over was by far the best job opening at the time. Just two years later it was the worst job opening.......

Interesting.

Not exactly what the Post reported.

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13664610

It was SO bad, Elway got a coach who got to the Super Bowl and is well respected in the business.

The hyperbole continues.

[Simple Jaded]

Interesting, that's dead money for the '09 season, the dead money when he took over consisted of Travis Henry and apparently Kerry Colbert.......

[MOtorboat]

Interesting, that's dead money for the '09 season, the dead money when he took over consisted of Travis Henry and apparently Kerry Colbert.......

Yes. Heading INTO 2009.

[MOtorboat]

Dre Bly
Boss Bailey
Travis Henry
Keary Colbert
John Engleberger
Alvin McKinley
Kory Lichtensteiger
Nate Jackson
Ryan Torain
Carlton Powell
Niko Koutouvides
Tim Crowder
Marquand Manuel

Would you like to reconsider that list of players who had dead money on 2009's cap?

[TXBRONC]

I dunno, on the scale of bad draft picks, I'm going with the first round quarterback who can't complete basic throws to the second round cornerback who can't cut it as a nickel.

Both huge mistakes.

Like it or not with the inferior quarterback we got to the playoffs we literally got nothing out of having Smith here.

[MOtorboat]

Like it or not with the inferior quarterback we got to the playoffs we literally nothing outof having Smith here.

Fair enough.

But a quarterback mistake is always bigger than a nickel cornerback mistake.

[Simple Jaded]

Dre Bly
Boss Bailey
Travis Henry
Keary Colbert
John Engleberger
Alvin McKinley
Kory Lichtensteiger
Nate Jackson
Ryan Torain
Carlton Powell
Niko Koutouvides
Tim Crowder
Marquand Manuel

Would you like to reconsider that list of players who had dead money on 2009's cap?

No, I wouldn't. I'm talking about the state of the team the day McDaniels took over.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/1869/denver-s-release-of-bly-doesn-t-save-money

This is the best I could do with how little I care. Dated Feb 17th, 2009 after Josh McDaniels released Dre Bly, per Hamburger Bill Bly's $9 mil pushed the dead money to $17.

What you're talking about is the cap situation after the '09 season started.......

[MOtorboat]

No, I wouldn't. I'm talking about the state of the team the day McDaniels took over.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/1869/denver-s-release-of-bly-doesn-t-save-money

This is the best I could do with how little I care. Dated Feb 17th, 2009 after Josh McDaniels released Dre Bly, per Hamburger Bill Bly's $9 mil pushed the dead money to $17.

What you're talking about is the cap situation after the '09 season started.......

So are you really telling me all of those Shanahan signings were good signings or picks? That's absurd. Shanahan, especially defensively, was abysmal in his last five seasons of being the man in charge in Denver.

Niko Koutouvides? Marquand Manuel? Dre Bly?

Travis Henry was an effing drug dealer...

Shanahan AND McDaniels contributed to 2010. Smart moves by the new regime have saved that (much of it being the pick of Von Miller, who is a budding superstar, but again that only happened because of the pick we received from the bad season). However, there are players who will play a role on this team, drafted by McDaniels. Thomas, Decker, Moreno, Mays. Is it enough to say he was a good general manager. Of course not, that's why he's gone. But the talent pool wasn't as depleted as you want it to be.

[Simple Jaded]

No, MO, I am not blaming McDaniels for the players he felt he had to cut, all I'm saying is he was dealt a loaded offense, $40 mil in cap space and obvious problems on defense.

Oh, and he proceeded to lay waste to the entire organization.......

[MOtorboat]

No, MO, I am not blaming McDaniels for the players he felt he had to cut, all I'm saying is he was dealt a loaded offense, $40 mil in cap space and obvious problems on defense.......

You actually changed to that argument, after being showed the ridiculous amount of dead weight Shanahan left him. Did he do a great job replacing it, no, but he was left a lemon.

And sorry if I don't share the sentiments that it was a "loaded" offense. It was OK, at best.

[Simple Jaded]

You actually changed to that argument, after being showed the ridiculous amount of dead weight Shanahan left him. Did he do a great job replacing it, no, but he was left a lemon.

And sorry if I don't share the sentiments that it was a "loaded" offense. It was OK, at best.I didn't change anything, you're just not grasing the thoroughly obvious. When Shanatan was fired there was apparently $8 Mil in dead money, $40 mil in cap space. The decisions that led to the other $22 Mil dead money for the '09 season were all Josh McDaniels.

Put it this way, if Shanatan didn't leave him with such good cap situation McDaniels couldn't have cut the Bailey's, Koutouvedis and Bly's and still had cap space to waste on the Jarvis Green's, JJ Arrington's and Jamal Williams'.......

[MOtorboat]

I didn't change anything, you're just not grasing the thoroughly obvious. When Shanatan was fired there was apparently $8 Mil in dead money, $40 mil in cap space. The decisions that led to the other $22 Mil dead money for the '09 season were all Josh McDaniels.

Put it this way, if Shanatan didn't leave him with such good cap situation McDaniels couldn't have cut the Bailey's, Koutouvedis and Bly's and still had cap space to waste on the Jarvis Green's, JJ Arrington's and Jamal Williams'.......

So, let me get this straight.

You're giving Shanahan credit for allowing McDaniels to cut the pieces of shit Shanahan signed in the first place to play defense?

That's absurd.

[Simple Jaded]

So, let me get this straight.

You're giving Shanahan credit for allowing McDaniels to cut the pieces of shit Shanahan signed in the first place to play defense?

That's absurd.Absolutely not! All I'm saying is that McDaniels was dealt a peach of a hand. A loaded offense, obvious problems on defense and $40 mil in cap space with which to fix it.

What McDaniels felt he had to do with that cap space has nothing to do with my point, according to everything I read at the time showed a very healthy cap situation. I posted Hamburger Bill's blog that showed the basic math behind my original contention. Bly's $9 mil put them at $17 mil, meaning before Feb 17, 2009 the dead money was $8 mil. I was wrong in thinking it was just Henry's $5 mil but I wasn't far off.

I don't blame Doogie for cutting the Koutouvedis', Marquand Manual's and Dre Bly's, they sucked ass, but those cuts are what led to the rest of that $30 mil in '09 dead money.

I'm just saying he took over the best job opening available (and then proceeded to turn it into the worst).......

[MOtorboat]

Absolutely not! All I'm saying is that McDaniels was dealt a peach of a hand. A loaded offense, $40 mil in cap space and obvious problems on defense.

What McDaniels felt he had to do with that cap space has nothing to do with my point, according to everything I read at the time showed a very healthy cap situation. I posted Hamburger Bill's blog that showed the basic math behind my original contention. Bly's $9 mil put them at $17 mil, meaning before Feb 17, 2009 the dead money was $8 mil. I was wrong in thinking it was just Henry's $5 mil but I wasn't far off.

I don't blame Doogie for cutting the Koutouvedis', Marquand Manual's and Dre Bly's, they sucked ass, but those cuts are what led to the rest of that $30 mil in '09 dead money.

I'm just saying he took over the best job opening available (and then proceeded to turn it into the worst).......

Actually, that is exactly what you were trying to imply...

And of course, the whole, "worst job ever" hyperbole...Which is absolutely not true, based on the coach that took the job...

[Simple Jaded]

Actually, that is exactly what you were trying to imply...

And of course, the whole, "worst job ever" hyperbole...Which is absolutely not true, based on the coach that took the job...
I never implied that McDaniels was to blame for anything, the '09 season dead money was inevitable but he couldn't have inherited a better cap situation with which to fix those issues and absorb that dead money.

Btw, I didn't say it was the "worst job ever", I said he took over the best job opening and in two years turned it into the worst job opening. Meaning the Denver Broncos HC was the worst job available when John Fox took over.......

[Simple Jaded]

Actually, I just re-read your post.......yes, l am giving Shanatan credit for giving McDaniels the cap space to cut the pieces of shit that Shanatan signed. That is exactly what I'm saying.......

[chazoe60]

Tebow, the guy who helped us win the AFCW and beat the Steelers in the playoffs(wether or not you like the style in which he did it, the previous statement is fact) is now a bigger mistake than the guy who cost us a first and was a season later traded for a 7th and never helped the team win shit?

Hyperbole at its finest.

[Northman]

Fair enough.

But a quarterback mistake is always bigger than a nickel cornerback mistake.

Both are the same to me. A bad pick is a bad pick. However, at least with Tebow we actually got something good out of it even though it was limited and on borrowed time.

[Northman]

And sorry if I don't share the sentiments that it was a "loaded" offense. It was OK, at best.

Sorry homie, but it was a loaded offense. We were 2nd in the league in yds per game. Did it need work in the redzone? Yes. But it was a young offense and could of EASILY been tweaked to improve that area. But considering when McD took over in 09' it dropped significantly in both scoring and yds a game doesnt show that he was dealt crap.

[rationalfan]

Sorry homie, but it was a loaded offense. We were 2nd in the league in yds per game. Did it need work in the redzone? Yes. But it was a young offense and could of EASILY been tweaked to improve that area. But considering when McD took over in 09' it dropped significantly in both scoring and yds a game doesnt show that he was dealt crap.

i don't agree with the word "loaded," but there was certainly talent. though, i do think you have to consider that the talent matched shanahan's preferred system. mcd had his own system, which didn't work with some of those players (and, appraently, work much at all in denver). the point: players and talent don't fit equally into every system. that has to be factored into this debate.

[rationalfan]

Tebow, the guy who helped us win the AFCW and beat the Steelers in the playoffs(wether or not you like the style in which he did it, the previous statement is fact) is now a bigger mistake than the guy who cost us a first and was a season later traded for a 7th and never helped the team win shit?

this draft discussion makes me wonder something: what's the value of a draft pick? truly.

for example, tebow led the broncos to a playoff win. in many ways, you have to consider that a very successful draft pick. think about it like this; if you knew a particular player was guaranteed to lead your team to a playoff win, but the player would only be there for one season, you'd take that player every time, right? now, if you use the same premise but add "you will have to draft him in the first round" you'd probably take that pick every time too, right?

i know there's this strong belief (for good reason) that your high draft picks have to create a legacy of consistency and value that lasts for several years. but there's A LOT of value in a brief moment of bright success. especially for a team's bottom line (playoff games = great revenue). besides, you can build for the future forever without ever finding success. one year of great success is worth a first round pick, i believe.

[chazoe60]

this draft discussion makes me wonder something: what's the value of a draft pick? truly.

for example, tebow led the broncos to a playoff win. in many ways, you have to consider that a very successful draft pick. think about it like this; if you knew a particular player was guaranteed to lead your team to a playoff win, but the player would only be there for one season, you'd take that player every time, right? now, if you use the same premise but add "you will have to draft him in the first round" you'd probably take that pick every time too, right?

i know there's this strong belief (for good reason) that your high draft picks have to create a legacy of consistency and value that lasts for several years. but there's A LOT of value in a brief moment of bright success. especially for a team's bottom line (playoff games = great revenue). besides, you can build for the future forever without ever finding success. one year of great success is worth a first round pick, i believe.

That's an excellent point and I wish more Bronco fans would look at Tebow's Bronco career that way. Wether or not you thought he was the answer for he long term it's hard to deny that, for a brief moment he at least made it entertaining. Who wasn't going crazy at the end of the Bears game, or the Dolphins game, or the Steelers playoff game?

[BroncoNut]

That's an excellent point and I wish more Bronco fans would look at Tebow's Bronco career that way. Wether or not you thought he was the answer for he long term it's hard to deny that, for a brief moment he at least made it entertaining. Who wasn't going crazy at the end of the Bears game, or the Dolphins game, or the Steelers playoff game?

it was kinda entertaining in that way, BUT, it got old. kinda like me and the dogbanging retard thing. Other than that, I too enjoyed rationalfan's breakdown on pick values.

[Ravage!!!]

this draft discussion makes me wonder something: what's the value of a draft pick? truly.

for example, tebow led the broncos to a playoff win. in many ways, you have to consider that a very successful draft pick. think about it like this; if you knew a particular player was guaranteed to lead your team to a playoff win, but the player would only be there for one season, you'd take that player every time, right? now, if you use the same premise but add "you will have to draft him in the first round" you'd probably take that pick every time too, right?

i know there's this strong belief (for good reason) that your high draft picks have to create a legacy of consistency and value that lasts for several years. but there's A LOT of value in a brief moment of bright success. especially for a team's bottom line (playoff games = great revenue). besides, you can build for the future forever without ever finding success. one year of great success is worth a first round pick, i believe.

So you are saying that you would draft players based on winning a game.... a 3 year stint is a successful draft choice because we got to 8-8 and a win in the playoffs? Really?

No. Not for me.

[Ravage!!!]

Sorry homie, but it was a loaded offense. We were 2nd in the league in yds per game. Did it need work in the redzone? Yes. But it was a young offense and could of EASILY been tweaked to improve that area. But considering when McD took over in 09' it dropped significantly in both scoring and yds a game doesnt show that he was dealt crap.

Exactly. Someone the other day said "wow, 2nd in offense but couldn't score." Uhmm..where would you WANT to start? Second in offense with a YOUNG, talented team that needs to mature into getting better in the redzone....or CRAP that can't move the ball at all and is lacking in talent across the board??

[Northman]

Exactly. Someone the other day said "wow, 2nd in offense but couldn't score." Uhmm..where would you WANT to start? Second in offense with a YOUNG, talented team that needs to mature into getting better in the redzone....or CRAP that can't move the ball at all and is lacking in talent across the board??

While i can understand RF's point about different coaches having different offensive philosophies i highly disagree that you take any "logical" coach who would of come into Denver at that time and not been able to utilize the talent on the offensive side of the ball. Problem for McDaniels is he tried to run before he could walk and thought he could do anything and have success. Well, that failed unfortuantely at the cost of losing some very talented young players in the process.

[rationalfan]

So you are saying that you would draft players based on winning a game.... a 3 year stint is a successful draft choice because we got to 8-8 and a win in the playoffs? Really?

No. Not for me.

for a win in the playoffs, yes.

think about it this way; the broncos have won two playoff games in the last ten years. those wins, as commodities, are far more rare than a first round draft pick, which is there almost every year.

or look at it this way, if you get three really good years out of a first round draft pick but no playoff appearances how is that value greater than a player who gives the team one good year that includes a playoff win?

[rationalfan]

While i can understand RF's point about different coaches having different offensive philosophies i highly disagree that you take any "logical" coach who would of come into Denver at that time and not been able to utilize the talent on the offensive side of the ball. Problem for McDaniels is he tried to run before he could walk and thought he could do anything and have success. Well, that failed unfortuantely at the cost of losing some very talented young players in the process.

i do get your point. but how many coaches are truly going to walk into the door and not apply their systems/beliefs to the team's offense?

after shanahan was fired there was a chorus of people who wanted spagnuolo to come fix the defense and just let the offense remain as it was. a good theory, but how practical is that? how many coaches want to come in and rely on their predecessor's system? the predecessor who just got fired? doesn't make sense when you consider that, and the fact that coaches have strong wills and egos, they want it their way.

in my mind, the only it would have worked is if kubiak or dennison was hired and maintained shanahan's offensive philosophies. but, again, why would bowlen hire a guy who's not going be different the one he just fired?

[Ravage!!!]

MOST NFL coaches could have worked VERY VERY well with the offensive talent that was on the team. Changing your offensive game calling and playbook doesn't require you to ship off YOUNG pro-bowl players. THat was just plain stupid.

McDaniels wanted to follow Belicheck's life to the letter. Belicheck didn't get along with Bledsoe, but knew he couldn't trade him away as it was Bledsoe's locker room. McDaniels decided he would bypass the situation. We have all seen that McDick thought everyone should bow down to him, and thus, he came in and the FIRST thing he did was try to trade away the leader of that team and impliment his "own" low round QB. Hence, following Belicheck. It was a horrible decision, and things just got worse from there.

[Ravage!!!]

for a win in the playoffs, yes.

think about it this way; the broncos have won two playoff games in the last ten years. those wins, as commodities, are far more rare than a first round draft pick, which is there almost every year.

or look at it this way, if you get three really good years out of a first round draft pick but no playoff appearances how is that value greater than a player who gives the team one good year that includes a playoff win?

I don't draft first round picks for 3 years. Getting a single playoff win, does NOTHING for me or the team. There is only ONE purpose to getting to the playoffs, adn thats to make it to the Super Bowl. Winning a single game in the playoffs, and being "happy with that" while I then have to draft MORE players to replace the lousy ones I just had... doesn't work. Sorry, it just doesn't.

Normally, if you get to the playoffs and win, its because you have the talent to do so again. We go very very very lucky last year. The talent wasn't there, and the wasted picks on a QB that can't throw and is out in 3 years, can't be justified purely because we caught lightning.

[rationalfan]

but if you never get to the playoffs you never win the super bowl. bit of a catch-22.

[BroncoNut]

I don't draft first round picks for 3 years. Getting a single playoff win, does NOTHING for me or the team. There is only ONE purpose to getting to the playoffs, adn thats to make it to the Super Bowl. Winning a single game in the playoffs, and being "happy with that" while I then have to draft MORE players to replace the lousy ones I just had... doesn't work. Sorry, it just doesn't.

Normally, if you get to the playoffs and win, its because you have the talent to do so again. We go very very very lucky last year. The talent wasn't there, and the wasted picks on a QB that can't throw and is out in 3 years, can't be justified purely because we caught lightning.

your way is not the way. I'm sorry to disagree. but this is a business of the here and now. you don't know what you'll have next season let alone 3 years down the road. this is a league of the here and now. it's a league of urgency. rarer are the dynasties of the pansies and the squeelers. I don't think we are going to see any more than 2 year runs from here on out.

I guess what I am saying is that In short, you and your team building philosophy suck

[BroncoNut]

but if you never get to the playoffs you never win the super bowl. bit of a catch-22.

More like a bit of a catch 27 if not more. TOTALLY true.

earth to Ravage: you cannot win a superbowl without going to the playoffs. THAT, my friend is fact

[Northman]

i do get your point. but how many coaches are truly going to walk into the door and not apply their systems/beliefs to the team's offense?

Well, but thats kind of my point. Everyone knew that McD was going to have his own methods. What never made sense was the idea of trading Cutler away without even seeing if the kid (or the team as a whole for that matter) would work in his system. I cant think of any other coach who would have or has done anything like that with the type of players we had.


after shanahan was fired there was a chorus of people who wanted spagnuolo to come fix the defense and just let the offense remain as it was. a good theory, but how practical is that?

Well, its got to be somewhat practical. Fox is defensive minded and our defense did improve despite the woes on offense. Now, in Spags case maybe it had more to do with his own experience as HC who knows. I think the general idea was to have a young HC come in and utilize the team that was being put together and continue with that. I really dont think that Bowlen expected to have it all ripped back down and started from scratch. But, seeing as how he doesnt mess with the team he allowed McD to do his thing thinking he knew what he was doing.


how many coaches want to come in and rely on their predecessor's system? the predecessor who just got fired? doesn't make sense when you consider that, and the fact that coaches have strong wills and egos, they want it their way.

Again, its not about the changing of the system. Its the talent of the players involved. No one can convince me that Cutler and crew couldnt run that system that McDaniels was using.


in my mind, the only it would have worked is if kubiak or dennison was hired and maintained shanahan's offensive philosophies. but, again, why would bowlen hire a guy who's not going be different the one he just fired?

Kubiak would of have familiarity and i understand your point about changing it up. But again, you dont trade away talent before you see what they can do in your system that you are implementing.

[rationalfan]

MOST NFL coaches could have worked VERY VERY well with the offensive talent that was on the team. Changing your offensive game calling and playbook doesn't require you to ship off YOUNG pro-bowl players. THat was just plain stupid.

we agree. though, i don't value those players as highly as i think you do.


McDaniels wanted to follow Belicheck's life to the letter. Belicheck didn't get along with Bledsoe, but knew he couldn't trade him away as it was Bledsoe's locker room. McDaniels decided he would bypass the situation. We have all seen that McDick thought everyone should bow down to him, and thus, he came in and the FIRST thing he did was try to trade away the leader of that team and impliment his "own" low round QB. Hence, following Belicheck. It was a horrible decision, and things just got worse from there.

this is speculation fueled by your disgust for mcd. history shows that belicheck actually adapted his teams to the philosophies of mcd (compare passing percentages and formations from the early super bowl wins to the undefeated regular season and you see stark differences). again, i'm not trying to defend mcd, but you're just not correct on that point.

[rationalfan]

Well, but thats kind of my point. Everyone knew that McD was going to have his own methods. What never made sense was the idea of trading Cutler away without even seeing if the kid (or the team as a whole for that matter) would work in his system. I cant think of any other coach who would have or has done anything like that with the type of players we had.



Well, its got to be somewhat practical. Fox is defensive minded and our defense did improve despite the woes on offense. Now, in Spags case maybe it had more to do with his own experience as HC who knows. I think the general idea was to have a young HC come in and utilize the team that was being put together and continue with that. I really dont think that Bowlen expected to have it all ripped back down and started from scratch. But, seeing as how he doesnt mess with the team he allowed McD to do his thing thinking he knew what he was doing.



Again, its not about the changing of the system. Its the talent of the players involved. No one can convince me that Cutler and crew couldnt run that system that McDaniels was using.



Kubiak would of have familiarity and i understand your point about changing it up. But again, you dont trade away talent before you see what they can do in your system that you are implementing.

nice post. for whatever reason my browser isn't showing the "high five" button; that's why i'm reposting.

[Northman]

nice post. for whatever reason my browser isn't showing the "high five" button; that's why i'm reposting.

Mine does that sometimes. I usually just have to refresh the page. Not sure why it does that though.

[Ravage!!!]

your way is not the way. I'm sorry to disagree. but this is a business of the here and now. you don't know what you'll have next season let alone 3 years down the road. this is a league of the here and now. it's a league of urgency. rarer are the dynasties of the pansies and the squeelers. I don't think we are going to see any more than 2 year runs from here on out.

I guess what I am saying is that In short, you and your team building philosophy suck

Laugh... yeah... nut. You've proved me wrong with your "no more than 2 year runs." Cause the Steelers, Giants, and Patriots are just that long ago. hard to imagine

[Ravage!!!]

this is speculation fueled by your disgust for mcd. history shows that belicheck actually adapted his teams to the philosophies of mcd (compare passing percentages and formations from the early super bowl wins to the undefeated regular season and you see stark differences). again, i'm not trying to defend mcd, but you're just not correct on that point.

it is speculation, but the scenario with Bledsoe and Belicheck is absolutely fact (spoken from his own mouth). McD tried to mimich Belicheck down to wearing the hoodie. Its not a coincidence that he came in and tried to get rid of the QB that was already here. You may find that to be a coincidence, but from everything I've seen, its spot on.

[BroncoNut]

Laugh... yeah... nut. You've proved me wrong with your "no more than 2 year runs." Cause the Steelers, Giants, and Patriots are just that long ago. hard to imagine

just where I see it going Ravage. I have my opinion and you have yours. no need to be a dick about it (just kidding)

[Ravage!!!]

just where I see it going Ravage. I have my opinion and you have yours. no need to be a dick about it (just kidding)

I see what you are saying, but considering the new rookie contracts, and the need for a top QB (which are just that much harder to find) I don't think the 'runs' are going to be more rare. I think once you get a Brady, Manning, Brees... that you have the BEST chance to continue long term success because SOOO much relies on that QB.

[BroncoNut]

I see what you are saying, but considering the new rookie contracts, and the need for a top QB (which are just that much harder to find) I don't think the 'runs' are going to be more rare. I think once you get a Brady, Manning, Brees... that you have the BEST chance to continue long term success because SOOO much relies on that QB.

maybe so Ravage. maybe so. but what do I know? I've only been following the league closely since the early 70's.


but no, seriously. how there's that skill threshold with a qb. alot does depend on the position at a certain skill level. I do agree with you there.

[Simple Jaded]

Tebow, the guy who helped us win the AFCW and beat the Steelers in the playoffs(wether or not you like the style in which he did it, the previous statement is fact) is now a bigger mistake than the guy who cost us a first and was a season later traded for a 7th and never helped the team win shit?

Hyperbole at its finest.
Well, in the sense that it cost so many draft picks and the fact that Tebowmania is such a huge burden, yes he is. The Tebow Effect is far from over, too, it's the gift that keeps on giving.

Wait til Monday morning and you'll see what I mean.......

[chazoe60]

Well, in the sense that it cost so many draft picks and the fact that Tebowmania is such a huge burden, yes he is. The Tebow Effect is far from over, too, it's the gift that keeps on giving.

Wait til Monday morning and you'll see what I mean.......

I sense that you're predicting a loss and think the fall-out will be a bunch of dumbass Tebow fans saying "I told you so".

Why do you think we'll lose?

[Simple Jaded]

So you are saying that you would draft players based on winning a game.... a 3 year stint is a successful draft choice because we got to 8-8 and a win in the playoffs? Really?

No. Not for me.The Steelers couldn't get a 1st round draft pick for the best deep threat in the league because teams value those picks so much, a playoff win is a horrible return on a 1st round pick.

Besides, that just isn't how the draft works, if the Patriots moved up and drafted Tom Brady with the 1st overall pick it would still be an incredibly stupid move considering nobody else had a 5th round grade on him. Same with Tebow, he just wasn't a 1st round talent.......

[Simple Jaded]

I sense that you're predicting a loss and think the fall-out will be a bunch of dumbass Tebow fans saying "I told you so".

Why do you think we'll lose?
Steelers are a better team atm, imo. I think the Broncos will be just fine but the early part of the season will be brutal.......

[chazoe60]

Steelers are a better team atm, imo. I think the Broncos will be just fine but the early part of the season will be brutal.......

I don't understand why the Steelers are better. We improved greatly at QB and the Steelers are banged up. I think we win by double digits.

[NightTerror218]

I don't understand why the Steelers are better. We improved greatly at QB and the Steelers are banged up. I think we win by double digits.

homer

[rationalfan]

The Steelers couldn't get a 1st round draft pick for the best deep threat in the league because teams value those picks so much, a playoff win is a horrible return on a 1st round pick.

Besides, that just isn't how the draft works, if the Patriots moved up and drafted Tom Brady with the 1st overall pick it would still be an incredibly stupid move considering nobody else had a 5th round grade on him. Same with Tebow, he just wasn't a 1st round talent.......

first, i get so sick of the "you can't draft a guy before round x" argument. why not? if you, a team or gm, values the player as a first or second round player when others don't than he's worthy of being picked in that slot. bill walsh believed in that process. he seemed to find reward with it. (also, i'm not convinced the people working in the NFL grade prospects the same way fans and draftniks do.)

second, i'm pretty certain every team in the league would trade their first round pick (barring, perhaps, the top slot or two to select transcendent players) if that could guarantee a playoff win. coaches and executives aren't fired when they win in the playoffs.

[Simple Jaded]

first, i get so sick of the "you can't draft a guy before round x" argument. why not? if you, a team or gm, values the player as a first or second round player when others don't than he's worthy of being picked in that slot. bill walsh believed in that process. he seemed to find reward with it. (also, i'm not convinced the people working in the NFL grade prospects the same way fans and draftniks do.)

second, i'm pretty certain every team in the league would trade their first round pick (barring, perhaps, the top slot or two to select transcendent players) if that could guarantee a playoff win. coaches and executives aren't fired when they win in the playoffs.
First, that is how the draft works, whether or not it makes sense to you and me is beside the point. You just can't justify drafting a 4th - 5th round prospect in the 1st round.

Second, any league exec that trades any premium pick because he was guaranteed nothing more than one playoff win would be fired. Besides, here we go again pretending that THAT 1st round pick is the sole reason that Denver won that playoff game.

We're also assuming that any player taken with the picks used to acquire THAT pick couldn't have contributed just as much to the playoff win. So as long as we're all playing Make Believe I choose to believe that the Broncos woulda been just fine had they not wasted THAT draft pick.......

[Simple Jaded]

I don't understand why the Steelers are better. We improved greatly at QB and the Steelers are banged up. I think we win by double digits.

I'm not predicting anything, I just think the Steelers are better at this point in time. The Broncos are greatly improved at QB but, while the Steelers have been set at QB for years, the Broncos and their new QB are still in the early stages of making a huge jump in offensive sophistication.

Denver will be a far better team in Dec. than they are now, so imo the Steelers are getting the Broncos at the right time. Just like the Broncos did last year.......

[rationalfan]

First, that is how the draft works, whether or not it makes sense to you and me is beside the point. You just can't justify drafting a 4th - 5th round prospect in the 1st round.

Second, any league exec that trades any premium pick because he was guaranteed nothing more than one playoff win would be fired. Besides, here we go again pretending that THAT 1st round pick is the sole reason that Denver won that playoff game.

We're also assuming that any player taken with the picks used to acquire THAT pick couldn't have contributed just as much to the playoff win. So as long as we're all playing Make Believe I choose to believe that the Broncos woulda been just fine had they not wasted THAT draft pick.......

it's not about THAT pick, it's about applying a different perspective to draft choice/player value through hypothetical situations. if it is about THAT pick, i still chuckle about the people who are miffed about the extra fourth round (or whatever) pick that could have been saved in the trade. whatever. the team won a playoff game. it was great. i hope to watch more of that this season.

[Simple Jaded]

it's not about THAT pick, it's about applying a different perspective to draft choice/player value through hypothetical situations. if it is about THAT pick, i still chuckle about the people who are miffed about the extra fourth round (or whatever) pick that could have been saved in the trade. whatever. the team won a playoff game. it was great. i hope to watch more of that this season.Iirc, McDaniels gave up a 2, 3 and a 4 to move back into the 1st to draft a 3rd-5th round prospect.

You're more than welcome to think outside the box when it comes to the draft but NFL execs seldom do.......

[Dean]

I can't help but marvel at the twists and turns an opening post in a thread takes.

This is not a condemnation, but rather an observation.

[Jsteve01]

it's not about THAT pick, it's about applying a different perspective to draft choice/player value through hypothetical situations. if it is about THAT pick, i still chuckle about the people who are miffed about the extra fourth round (or whatever) pick that could have been saved in the trade. whatever. the team won a playoff game. it was great. i hope to watch more of that this season.Iirc, McDaniels gave up a 2, 3 and a 4 to move back into the 1st to draft a 3rd-5th round prospect.

You're more than welcome to think outside the box when it comes to the draft but NFL execs seldom do....... all I ever needed to know about that trade was that according to Baltimore insiders newsomes eyes lit up when he heard the offer. Mcd and Co treated draft picks like monopoly money

[Northman]

all I ever needed to know about that trade was that according to Baltimore insiders newsomes eyes lit up when he heard the offer. Mcd and Co treated draft picks like monopoly money

And he didnt get to pass go and collect $200. lol

[TXBRONC]

we agree. though, i don't value those players as highly as i think you do.



this is speculation fueled by your disgust for mcd. history shows that belicheck actually adapted his teams to the philosophies of mcd (compare passing percentages and formations from the early super bowl wins to the undefeated regular season and you see stark differences). again, i'm not trying to defend mcd, but you're just not correct on that point.

No there is plenty of evidence that shows that McDaniels was trying to mimic Belicheck in almost everything. It's not uncommon for coaches to take what they have learned and apply to there own head coaching career. Shanahan took many of things he learned from being wth 49ers and applied to the Broncos.I don't of any other coach that has tried to mimic there mentor's wardrobe. That's a little freaky. I don't buy the line that there was stark differences in offense from Weis to McDaniels. The biggest differences was that Belicheck decided to open up the wallet and sign better quality receivers so that they could throw the ball a more.

[Ravage!!!]

The Steelers couldn't get a 1st round draft pick for the best deep threat in the league because teams value those picks so much, a playoff win is a horrible return on a 1st round pick.

Besides, that just isn't how the draft works, if the Patriots moved up and drafted Tom Brady with the 1st overall pick it would still be an incredibly stupid move considering nobody else had a 5th round grade on him. Same with Tebow, he just wasn't a 1st round talent.......

Exactly. If I could go back in time... I would not take Tom Brady in the 1st round. I would take him in the 5th. Why give away value?

[Simple Jaded]

No there is plenty of evidence that shows that McDaniels was trying to mimic Belicheck in almost everything. It's not uncommon for coaches to take what they have learned and apply to there own head coaching career. Shanahan took many of things he learned from being wth 49ers and applied to the Broncos.I don't of any other coach that has tried to mimic there mentor's wardrobe. That's a little freaky. I don't buy the line that there was stark differences in offense from Weis to McDaniels. The biggest differences was that Belicheck decided to open up the wallet and sign better quality receivers so that they could throw the ball a more.The year after Belicheat establishes Gronkowski and Hernandez Josh McDaniels drafts two TE's with the Rams. This after he basically treats TE's like extra lineman in Denver. McDaniels probably has a keychain made from a lock of Belicheats hair.......


Exactly. If I could go back in time... I would not take Tom Brady in the 1st round. I would take him in the 5th. Why give away value?

Great way to put it. Pioli was asked about being smart for drafting Brady to which he basically said "if we were so smart we would have taken him in the 1st", I sincerely hope he doesn't believe that.......