Moreno or Ayers

[Traveler]

What if the controversy between McDaniels and Cutler never happened and we kept the 12th selection in the 1st round. If you had to choose between Moreno or Ayers, who would be your choice?

Knowing our need for defense, Ayers would be the logical choice. But I 'd still probably choose Moreno. Agree or disagree?

[dogfish]

i would have taken knowshon, because i thought he was the better and safer prospect overall. . . . and i would have traded up from our second rounder to grab everette brown or connor barwin. . .

[GEM]

Makes it even harder now knowing what we had a feeling of back then. Hillis has shined this camp. Did we really NEED Moreno? Not so much, though Hillis isn't an every down back, but I think he and Torrain could have pulled off what is necessary in the position.

I probably would have gone Defense just because we were in a halfway decent (not great) position at RB. The D is absolutely atrocious and needs all the help it can get.

[SoCalImport]

NO doubt we would've gone with Ayers. Can you imagine NOT using that pick on the D-line (yes I count a 3/4 OLB as D-line:P)
We've been able to add a ton of depth at RB without breaking the bank, and Ayers was considered the best DE in the first round by some.

[Traveler]

Makes it even harder now knowing what we had a feeling of back then. Hillis has shined this camp. Did we really NEED Moreno? Not so much, though Hillis isn't an every down back, but I think he and Torrain could have pulled off what is necessary in the position.

I probably would have gone Defense just because we were in a halfway decent (not great) position at RB. The D is absolutely atrocious and needs all the help it can get.

Defense, but not necessarily Ayers? I hear what you are saying about Hillis, but the offense needed a RB that teams had to gamplan for, thus making Cutler & Company that more dangerous. Hillis currently isn't and may never that type of back.

our Big 3 would've been complete (Cutler, Marshall, and Moreno).

[Traveler]

NO doubt we would've gone with Ayers. Can you imagine NOT using that pick on the D-line (yes I count a 3/4 OLB as D-line:P)
We've been able to add a ton of depth at RB without breaking the bank, and Ayers was considered the best DE in the first round by some.

Hopefully with the new FO, identifying and selecting defensive players has improved because picking for glaring need on defense hasn't been the team's strong suit. Not sure Ayers was rated well enough to be selected 12th.

[Grover]

It seems like all they hype pre-draft was for us picking up a middle linebacker. Someone like Ray Maualuga, if we couldn't get Jackson or Raji in the first.

Picking up an offensive skill player like Moreno seemed like a pipe dream, and was only made possible because of the Cutler trade giving us 2 first round picks. So since we had two picks, I was jumping up and down with excitement when we took Moreno at #12.

But to answer your question, I felt like Ayers was more of a need, and Moreno was a luxury. So if we had only one pick, I felt we needed a pass rusher and Ayers has shown himself to be dynamic and hard working.

[CoachChaz]

I would have drafted Brian Orakpo

[Traveler]

I would have drafted Brian Orakpo

He certainly had better sack numbers than Ayers. Just not sure if many of those sacks came against lesser opponents.

[yardog]

Defense, but not necessarily Ayers? I hear what you are saying about Hillis, but the offense needed a RB that teams had to gamplan for, thus making Cutler & Company that more dangerous. Hillis currently isn't and may never that type of back.

our Big 3 would've been complete (Cutler, Marshall, and Moreno).

:tsk: Traveler are trying to make me sad today?

[honz]

You take the best player available/safest prospect. When you draft by positional needs you end up with busts. Who that was, I dunno, but the FO obviously felt Moreno was the better overall prospect.

[Traveler]

[QUOTE=Traveler;700571]Defense, but not necessarily Ayers? I hear what you are saying about Hillis, but the offense needed a RB that teams had to gamplan for, thus making Cutler & Company that more dangerous. Hillis currently isn't and may never that type of back.

our Big 3 would've been complete (Cutler, Marshall, and Moreno).


:tsk: Traveler are trying to make me sad today?

No. Just wondering what people thought if the cause of your sadness hadn't parted ways with the team.

The sun'll come out tomorrow!;)

[CoachChaz]

He certainly had better sack numbers than Ayers. Just not sure if many of those sacks came against lesser opponents.

But he's more of a hybrid than Ayers is. I know the pundits say Ayers will be the best OLB of the bunch...and I dont doubt he can be...but at #12, the safest bet would have been Orakpo.


IMO

[Traveler]

But he's more of a hybrid than Ayers is. I know the pundits say Ayers will be the best OLB of the bunch...and I dont doubt he can be...but at #12, the safest bet would have been Orakpo.


IMO

IMO, that would make him that much more a riskier choice.

[yardog]

[QUOTE=yardog;700593][QUOTE=Traveler;700571]Defense, but not necessarily Ayers? I hear what you are saying about Hillis, but the offense needed a RB that teams had to gamplan for, thus making Cutler & Company that more dangerous. Hillis currently isn't and may never that type of back.

our Big 3 would've been complete (Cutler, Marshall, and Moreno).

No. Just wondering what people thought if the cause of your sadness hadn't parted ways with the team.

The sun'll come out tomorrow!;)

Something tells me tomorrow is further away than we think.

[topscribe]

Makes it even harder now knowing what we had a feeling of back then. Hillis has shined this camp. Did we really NEED Moreno? Not so much, though Hillis isn't an every down back, but I think he and Torrain could have pulled off what is necessary in the position.

I probably would have gone Defense just because we were in a halfway decent (not great) position at RB. The D is absolutely atrocious and needs all the help it can get.

But why wouldn't Hillis be an every down back? Remember Jerome Bettis?

But I believe you're right about need. Besides Hillis and Torain, Buckhalter is in
there, and from the reports I've read, he has impressed, and he is fast.

Besides, along with the greater need for what Ayers can do, I have read that
some gurus think he may have been the best defensive prospect in the draft,
ultimately.

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[TXBRONC]

Taking into account that Raji and Jackson were gone Moreno was the safer choice for the 12th pick.

If Klis has his information correct the Broncos were set to draft Raji or Jackson had they fallen to the 12th pick and then select Moreno with 18th pick if he were available. Since those two guys were long gone before we pick the choice then came down to who Moreno and Ayers who was also high McDaniels draft board. According to Klis McDaniels flirted with idea that drafting Ayers with 12th pick but they were fairly certain that Moreno wasn't going slip past the 17th pick so they went ahead drafted him first.

If I'm not mistaken the Chargers had the 17th pick and were rumored to be very interested in drafting Moreno if he fell to them with 17th pick. That makes a lot of sense to me considering that LT getting long in the tooth and recently has had a lot of problems staying healthy.

[Grover]

But why wouldn't Hillis be an every down back? Remember Jerome Bettis?

I think Hillis needs to learn to protect himself a little better before he could be considered an every down back (and have his health last more than 1/4 of the season). But most of the charm of Hillis is his punishing style - so I'm inclined to have him be used as part of a rotation and have him last into the playoffs.

But getting back to GEM's point -- Our running backs look good now, but think back to February and March this year. We had eight on IR last season, JJ Arrington was on crutches, Torain's NFL history is a quarter and half and 68 yards, Hillis had one good leg to stand on, and although we signed Buckhalter and Jordan in free agency, some here called them washed up has-beens. I think a good running back was a need based on what we had going into the draft. The fact we had two first round picks made taking Moreno a possibility, rather than using a 2nd or 3rd rounder on a decent back.

Things changed in a couple of months haven't they?

[topscribe]

I think Hillis needs to learn to protect himself a little better before he could be considered an every down back (and have his health last more than 1/4 of the season). But most of the charm of Hillis is his punishing style - so I'm inclined to have him be used as part of a rotation and have him last into the playoffs.

But getting back to GEM's point -- Our running backs look good now, but think back to February and March this year. We had eight on IR last season, JJ Arrington was on crutches, Torain's NFL history is a quarter and half and 68 yards, Hillis had one good leg to stand on, and although we signed Buckhalter and Jordan in free agency, some here called them washed up has-beens. I think a good running back was a need based on what we had going into the draft. The fact we had two first round picks made taking Moreno a possibility, rather than using a 2nd or 3rd rounder on a decent back.

Things changed in a couple of months haven't they?

Hillis' injury was not due to fragility or abuse from tacklers. It was a freak
accident from coming down wrong from an awkward angle after making a
"circus catch" (I hate that cliché, don't you?). Again, ala Bettis, methinks the
tacklers need protection from Hillis. One incurs a lot less damage when
delivering blows than when receiving them.

But Hillis did say he was learning techniques for self-protection, so I believe
he has that covered pretty well, too.

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[TXBRONC]

My previous post really didn't answer the o.p. so here's my take on it if Cutler had never been traded. Assuming that Raji and Jackson would have still been drafted in the top ten I think it would still have been a wise choice to take Moreno over Ayers. Like Dog said we could have then moved up in the second round to take Everett Brown rather than Smith or possibly Ron Brace.

[topscribe]

My previous post really didn't answer the o.p. so here's my take on it if Cutler had never been traded. Assuming that Raji and Jackson would have still been drafted in the top ten I think it would still have been a wise choice to take Moreno over Ayers. Like Dog said we could have then moved up in the second round to take Everett Brown rather than Smith or possibly Ron Brace.

Yes, and I failed to answer the OP, too.

I would have found it hard to pass up Ayers. My personal opinion (FWIW, and
I'm afraid it ain't worth much) is that I would have found it hard to pass up
Ayers, Orakpo or no Orakpo. I probably would have raised some eyebrows, but
I do like Ayers better than any other defender who was available at 12.

Regarding Moreno, tickled as I am to see him coming to the Broncos (if he gets
there before he's on Medicare), the Broncos really weren't hurting at RB after
Hillis' and Torain's recovery and the signings of Buckhalter and Jordan. So,
between Moreno and Ayers, throwing in the desperate need for defense, I
personally would have selected Ayers.

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[Traveler]

Yes, and I failed to answer the OP, too.

I would have found it hard to pass up Ayers. My personal opinion (FWIW, and
I'm afraid it ain't worth much) is that I would have found it hard to pass up
Ayers, Orakpo or no Orakpo. I probably would have raised some eyebrows, but
I do like Ayers better than any other defender who was available at 12.

Regarding Moreno, tickled as I am to see him coming to the Broncos (if he gets
there before he's on Medicare), the Broncos really weren't hurting at RB after
Hillis' and Torain's recovery and the signings of Buckhalter and Jordan. So,
between Moreno and Ayers, throwing in the desperate need for defense, I
personally would have selected Ayers.

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Not sure I agree here. Remember that we had seven RB's on IR, so the FO really couldn't depend on any of these guys until they got healthy. That would be how I judged the situation if I was performing an initial team evaluation and not having seen the guys practice live. Buckhalter, Arrington, and Jordan also had past injury concerns.

[topscribe]

Remember that we had seven RB's on IR, so the FO really couldn't depend on any of these guys until they got healthy. That would be how I judged the situation if I was performing an initial team evaluation and not having seen the guys practice live.

True. On the other hand, how many DLs and LBs were the Broncos able to count
on . . . even when healthy? We have also to remember that all those injuries to
one position in a single season was not only rare; it was historic. It isn't like we
can expect to see that every year . . .

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[Traveler]

True. On the other hand, how many DLs and LBs were the Broncos able to count on . . . even when healthy?

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Also true. That said, I'd still go for the safest pick in round one. No one "must have" on defense we couldn't afford to pass on IMO. No disrespect to Ayers or Orakpo.

[Lonestar]

Makes it even harder now knowing what we had a feeling of back then. Hillis has shined this camp. Did we really NEED Moreno? Not so much, though Hillis isn't an every down back, but I think he and Torrain could have pulled off what is necessary in the position.

I probably would have gone Defense just because we were in a halfway decent (not great) position at RB. The D is absolutely atrocious and needs all the help it can get.



why not?

last year with RB's NE averaged 26.3 rushes per game.. in 2007-16.8. 2006-24.9.. 2005-19.6..

not many just enough to keep the defense honest..

like the WCO and passing it became a LONG hand off.

the spread if ran properly has a high completion rate and keeps the ball out of the hands of the other team..

Hillis IIRC was never hurt in college although he did not get the ball alot he blocked alot for Mc fadden and the other kid drafted in the first round.. He certain showed he as a bull leading the Broncos in rushing last year, and only playing in 6 games a couple of which he saw spot duty in the early season..

in receiving he was #7 on the reception list average .6 yards more per catch than marshall did and gained all but 36 yards AFTER the Catch.. unlike marshall's 826..

[Lonestar]

I think Hillis needs to learn to protect himself a little better before he could be considered an every down back (and have his health last more than 1/4 of the season). But most of the charm of Hillis is his punishing style - so I'm inclined to have him be used as part of a rotation and have him last into the playoffs.

But getting back to GEM's point -- Our running backs look good now, but think back to February and March this year. We had eight on IR last season, JJ Arrington was on crutches, Torain's NFL history is a quarter and half and 68 yards, Hillis had one good leg to stand on, and although we signed Buckhalter and Jordan in free agency, some here called them washed up has-beens. I think a good running back was a need based on what we had going into the draft. The fact we had two first round picks made taking Moreno a possibility, rather than using a 2nd or 3rd rounder on a decent back.

Things changed in a couple of months haven't they?


Hillis was hurt on a VERY freak play never seen that kind of catch before and probably will not see it again.. We he eventually wear down sure but he is gonna be Hillis regardless..

[TXBRONC]

Yes, and I failed to answer the OP, too.

I would have found it hard to pass up Ayers. My personal opinion (FWIW, and
I'm afraid it ain't worth much) is that I would have found it hard to pass up
Ayers, Orakpo or no Orakpo. I probably would have raised some eyebrows, but
I do like Ayers better than any other defender who was available at 12.

Regarding Moreno, tickled as I am to see him coming to the Broncos (if he gets
there before he's on Medicare), the Broncos really weren't hurting at RB after
Hillis' and Torain's recovery and the signings of Buckhalter and Jordan. So,
between Moreno and Ayers, throwing in the desperate need for defense, I
personally would have selected Ayers.

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I can understand perfectly why you and others would not have wanted to pass up on Ayers if we had only the 12th overall pick given the state of our defense. If we only had the 12th overall pick it would not have surprised if McDaniels had taken Ayers with that pick.

Then again it wouldn't have surprised me if McDaniels had taken Moreno given the same set of circumstances. The reason for saying this is threefold.

First, McDaniels said he didn't realize what kind of talent he had in Hillis so given the problems of last year Moreno would still have been a sensible pick imo.

Second, from what we think we know McDaniels wanted Raji or Jackson but they were both gone now comes down to which one is the better pick and that could be seen as toss up.

Third, bringing in Moreno can possibly transform our running attack solid to one that give defensive coordinators nightmares. A great running attack not only will take pressure off of Orton could indirectly have positive effect on the defense.

[dogfish]

But Hillis did say he was learning techniques for self-protection, so I believe
he has that covered pretty well, too.

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that's great, but you can't use kung fu on the field. . .