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Tned
10-31-2007, 07:13 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7325182?source=rss


Broncos' numbers just don't add up
Despite gaudy offensive stats, the unit is woeful in one key category: scoring points
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 10/31/2007 12:35:53 AM MDT

There are stats, widely considered indicative of a team's overall performance, that say the 2007 Broncos offense is better than the juggernaut run by John Elway during his three-year glory period of 1996-98.

No joke. And, yet, a punch line. When it comes to converting stats into points, however, this year's Broncos can't even match the number that got Jake Plummer fired as starting quarterback last year.

Confused? Don't feel bad. This is a case where first down plus first down too often equals nothing.

When the Broncos were at their best, posting a 14-2 record in 1996 with the likes of Elway, Terrell Davis, Shannon Sharpe and Ed McCaffrey, then winning Super Bowls in 1997-98, their average yardage per play was, in succession, 5.1, 5.5 and 5.9.
Through seven games this year, the Broncos are averaging 5.94 yards. At that rate, the 2007 Broncos will set a franchise record.

The 2007 offense is led by Jay Cutler, who replaced Jake Plummer after the 11th game last season. And in virtually every statistical measurement, Cutler has been the superior quarterback. He is throwing for more yards, completing passes at a higher percentage, converting more third downs. The offense in general is moving the ball at a greater clip.

Yet, the primary reason Plummer was demoted last season was because the Broncos were averaging only 17.7 points through 11 games. Through seven games this year, the Broncos are averaging 17.0 points.

The top three offensive statistics, in order of importance: Scoring, scoring, scoring.

"That's been a problem for us all year," Cutler said.

About the only way to make sense of these dizzying statistics is to conclude the Broncos have an offense whose performance is not about the quarterback. Cutler is the least of their problems this year, and, in retrospect, Plummer received too much blame last year.

Too often during the Broncos' 3-4 start, blame was assigned to the defensive and special-team units. Denver's latest loss, against the Green Bay Packers, is primarily on the offense. True, the most indelible images from the Monday night defeat were of the burned backsides of cornerbacks Champ Bailey and Dré Bly and a joyous Brett Favre, the Packers' quarterback, running triumphantly toward his longball-catching receivers.

But this was a game where the Broncos' offense could have won it before the defense lost it.

"That's what happens when you don't finish things off in this league," Broncos receiver Brandon Stokley said. "It comes down to a coin flip."

The Broncos had second-and-1 from the Green Bay 4-yard line with 25 seconds remaining. A touchdown would have won the game. Instead, the Broncos settled for a heart-stopping, if disappointing, tie, then heard Packers receiver Greg Jennings first call "heads" to win the overtime flip, and haul in Favre's 82-yard pass to win the game.

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2007/1031/20071031_122716_BroncosChart103107.jpg

"If you want to be a good offensive football team, you've got to score in the red zone," Broncos coach Mike Shanahan said. "Anytime you're 25 percent, that's not good enough."

Red-zone inefficiency, however, doesn't fully explain the Broncos' scoring problems the past two seasons. When Plummer traded in the faxed Tuesday game plan for a Sunday clipboard, the Broncos ranked an impressive sixth in red-zone scoring.

This year's offense had been similarly efficient until the Green Bay game knocked them back to 17th in the league.

What exactly is the problem, then, with the Broncos' offense? The answer can't be found in statistics. Some stats say this offense is right there with Elway's offense in the Super Bowl years.

There are instances, it seems, when stats lie.

"We have a lot of talent and a lot of veterans that are hungry," Cutler said after the loss to the Packers. "We just have to get back at it."

Mike Klis: 303-954-1055 or mklis@denverpost.com

SR
10-31-2007, 07:34 AM
That was a really, really good article.

Tned
10-31-2007, 07:41 AM
That was a really, really good article.

Yep, interesting.

FWIW, that dichotomy between overall offensive production and scoring is why I actually still remain cautiously optomistic about the remainder of the season.

While it is possible that the scoring will stay low all year, I have always believed that it would take a while for the offense to gel and always looked at the mid-year point as the most likely time frame. So, we will see what happens over the next couple games, but the fact is that the overall offensive production indicates a team that should be scoring 30+ points a game, but clearly they are not.

If the team can start finishing drives and turning those gaudy offensive stats into gaudy point totals, then like with past Broncos teams, it will cover up a great many defensive woes, plus force teams into pass-only situations, which this defense handles better.

omac
10-31-2007, 08:01 AM
Check out the Cutler and Favre highlights at nfl.com. The offense under Cutler looked pretty good, as did the GB offense under Favre.

http://www.nfl.com/videos

No way can Plummer move the offense through the field as well as Cutler, so I shudder to think how much worse the offense would be under Plummer. We're 3-1 in close games, because Jay has been able to lead the team to the needed score late in the game, something he's also done in his few starts last season. I just don't have that confidence in Plummer.

ydave77
10-31-2007, 09:42 AM
While I agree our pts/game should increase over the course of the yr, I am not so sure we will be an scoring juggernaut. The problem with our red zone offense has to do mainly with the Oline.

With the injuries we have had on our O-line (losing Hamilton, Nalen, and the fact that Lepsis doesnt look 100% to me) we just havent been able to run the ball when the field gets shortened at the goal-line. It seems like teams dont have to over-sell to stop the run, as they often have too on short and goal to go situations. Instead they are able to continue to play the pass which makes it that much harder for Cutler to do his job as well.

Despite the fact, that our opponents might not be over-plyaing the run, I feel that keeping the ball with Cutler may be our best option. The secondary issue I have is with Shanny calling so many run plays in goal-line situations, which havent really worked out for us at all. I understand he wants to keep the pressure off Cutler having to do everything, but we basically end up running on 1st, running on 2nd, then pass on 3rd down. The defense is too prepared for that. We need to run more play action on first.

And somehow figure out what to do with our oline in the offseason. Is Hamilton coming back? Will he play center if Nalen retires? Is Myers a long term fix at LG? What about Kuper, where does he fit in? Will Lepsis be back at 100% next yr? What are we planning on doing with Ryan Harris?

Mike
10-31-2007, 10:13 AM
While I agree our pts/game should increase over the course of the yr, I am not so sure we will be an scoring juggernaut. The problem with our red zone offense has to do mainly with the Oline.

With the injuries we have had on our O-line (losing Hamilton, Nalen, and the fact that Lepsis doesnt look 100% to me) we just havent been able to run the ball when the field gets shortened at the goal-line. It seems like teams dont have to over-sell to stop the run, as they often have too on short and goal to go situations. Instead they are able to continue to play the pass which makes it that much harder for Cutler to do his job as well.

Despite the fact, that our opponents might not be over-plyaing the run, I feel that keeping the ball with Cutler may be our best option. The secondary issue I have is with Shanny calling so many run plays in goal-line situations, which havent really worked out for us at all. I understand he wants to keep the pressure off Cutler having to do everything, but we basically end up running on 1st, running on 2nd, then pass on 3rd down. The defense is too prepared for that. We need to run more play action on first.

And somehow figure out what to do with our oline in the offseason. Is Hamilton coming back? Will he play center if Nalen retires? Is Myers a long term fix at LG? What about Kuper, where does he fit in? Will Lepsis be back at 100% next yr? What are we planning on doing with Ryan Harris?

I agree. We just do not have the personnel on the line to run in goal-line situations. Anything outside the 2 anyways. That has been a problem for a few years. You would think that the coaches would recognize it and modify their strategy...play to the players strengths. :confused:

What it boils down to is lack of creativity and trust. Forget this "not wanting to put too much pressure on a young QB" crap. That is just a crap excuse. Our young QB has shown several times in his short career that he not only can handle the pressure, but that he excels under it. I can live with the mistakes a young QB will make. I can live with losing because of them. I cannot stand losing "safe" football. Put your players in position to win the game and trust them to do it.

I was concerned about the o-line. But now I like what I see out of the young guys. Just like Cutler, there will be growing pains...and there were a few on Monday night. But I am anxious to see how they grow together to form into a unit. Remember they are new to each other and haven't built the trust or bond that our old lines had. I am not sure about Pears, but for the most part I like what I see in the others so far.

My main gripe though is about the coaches. Your job as a coach is to put your players in the best position to help them succeed, adapt your strategies when needed, and motivate your players. Honestly, I don't see that from the coaches this year. I still think Shanahan is a great coach. I think that he has surrounded himself with crap for assistants. He made that bed by playing the good-ol-boy game. He needs to bring in some fresh young coaches with new ideas and perspectives, IMO.

Keep Shanahan as coach...not as the acting GM. Get rid of Dennison and Dinger. Give Bates and O'Brien time.

BaiLeY324
10-31-2007, 10:51 AM
All I'm going to say is that it's not Cutler's fault. And if we had Plummer this year we'd be 0-7.

The fact that we don't have a gamebreaking RB, or a RB at all for that matter is the reason we're not doing good.

There's no way we're beating NE, which means there's no way we're getting to the superbowl. If you make it to the superbowl and lose, the season is just as much of a failure as a 3-13 season. Sooooo, lose out, and get D-Mac. Period.

ydave77
10-31-2007, 11:05 AM
Forget this "not wanting to put too much pressure on a young QB" crap. That is just a crap excuse. Our young QB has shown several times in his short career that he not only can handle the pressure, but that he excels under it. I can live with the mistakes a young QB will make. I can live with losing because of them. I cannot stand losing "safe" football. Put your players in position to win the game and trust them to do it.

I am totally with you. Cutler's psyche doesnt seem like he is one that needs to be treated with kid gloves. I'd rather have him learn from mistakes, than just play it safe so he doesnt make mistakes. Like the poster above me wrote, 3-13 or losing in the playoffs, its all the same to me. And this is not a super bowl winning team. Let the kid learn, I can understand if you had a qb with a confidence issue, or one that has shown when he makes a mistake he gets into a funk, and doesnt trust himself. But thats not Cutler, he has shown he can move on after throwing an INT, to engineering a game winning drive. I have faith in him, and would rather go down swinging, than play it safe. At the very least Cutler gets more experience in those situations, and helps us for next yr.
On a somewhat related, but mostly not related note (letting the young kids learn), ummm Shanny can we please not de-activate Jarvis Moss for Simeon ever again. Ever. Thanks.

Lonestar
10-31-2007, 12:14 PM
interesting comparisons..

I wonder what Jake could have done with all the new toys this year and not having Jay breathing down his neck?

That said I'm glad the kid is here and I also think he handles himself under pressure very well.

It is not Jays fault, just like it was not Jakes last year.

Something is wrong on this team what it is I do not know.

I do know that considering the injuries they have had it could be a whole lot worse..

ydave77
10-31-2007, 12:44 PM
interesting comparisons..

I wonder what Jake could have done with all the new toys this year and not having Jay breathing down his neck?

That said I'm glad the kid is here and I also think he handles himself under pressure very well.

It is not Jays fault, just like it was not Jakes last year.

Something is wrong on this team what it is I do not know.

I do know that considering the injuries they have had it could be a whole lot worse..

Not trying to get into Jake vs Jay. Just talkign about the offense in general.

I think the team surrounding this QB is worse than last yrs team. Not sure that we have that many new toys. We have a new TE who is better known for blocking than receptions. On the plus side we do have Lepsis back, though I dont feel he is yet at his pre-injury level. Travis Henry has been solid, but the running game is far from dominant, and not significantly improved from last yr. We have a new slot receiver who hasn't been able to play his best position bc of injuries.

On the flip side....We have lost Javon. We dont have Rod Smith. We have lost Nalen, and Hamilton. We havent had Scheff back until recently. I am not sure that the team around the qb is better than last yrs version.

I really feel like we are underestimating the loss of Javon. He brought something to this team that I am not sure we have right now. He was a legitimate deep threat. How many 30-40 yrd plays/tds do we have, I havent seen many/any? He could stretch the field for us. Keep the defenses honest, allow us more underneath stuff as well. I think his big play ability is definitely missed. Also his loss forces everyone to move up a peg on the WR depth chart. Marshall will be a stud one day, but like Jay I think he still needs more time. He isnt ready to be a consistent #1 WR yet. Now stokely is forced into being a #2, Martinez is a #3. The chain effect hurts us all the way through.

broncofanatic1987
10-31-2007, 12:48 PM
It's a good article, but the comparison to Plummer is out of line. The writer fails to mention that when Jay took over last year, the offense started scoring more points per game. They went from 17 points per game to 25 points per game. I think it was actually more like 23 points per game with a defensive touchdown that raised the average to 25 points per game. It still remains a fact that the offense scored more points per game last year with Jay than with Jake.

I'm sure there are a several reasons for why the offense is failing to score points this year. Defense and special teams are two very key reasons. The offense can't score if it doesn't have the ball. The defense hasn't been effective at getting 3 and outs or turnovers. Ineffective coverage on kicks and punts has given opponents good field position, which in turn results in poor field position for our offense when the defense does happen to force a punt. The kick and punt return teams haven't been very good either. The play calling from the coaches probably is the number three reason for poor points production. Given the poor defensive and special teams performances, the play calling probably needs to be more aggressive, especially in the red zone.

Requiem / The Dagda
10-31-2007, 12:58 PM
When it comes to the talent surrounding Cutler, we have weapons - if Walker and Smith were healthy, I think teams would be deathly afraid of what we can do.

Both Brandon's have risen to the occasion and have performed admirably in their new roles. Marshall is on pace for a thousand yard season with perhaps 70-80 catches. We know he has the talent, and we know for certain we have a true receiver to look for on the team. He puts forth an excellent effort on the field and always fights for extra yardage. As he progresses, he'll become special.

Personally, I feel that Jay is one of the quarterbacks who can make his receivers look better than they are. For example, Favre has a lot of talent around him right now - but as soon as he retires, I'm more than certain that you're not going to see Driver, Jennings and Jones having banner years. We have a no-name player in Glenn Martinez who was able to catch 6 balls for 70 yards and is probably going to have a decent year as a #3 target.

The one thing I'm also liking about Jay and this offense is the ball distribution. You're seeing three to four wide outs catching passes a game, with screens and dumps to our backs and of course - Graham and Scheffler getting looks too. Earlier on Jay had a habit of not progressing through his reads well and locking onto a receiver or two - but I think he's improved leaps and bounds in that area.

Yet again, you see the offensive line having troubles in the red zone. It's not a matter of our backs not being able to get it in, it's our line not being able to do it in the red zone. They don't have the muscle mass and strength to push it in. That's just the fact.

Between the 20's this team is absolutely lethal in the running game (or has been when Henry is healthy and having more than an undrafted FA at the spot) and they have struggled immensely inside the 20's. Denver needs to add more bulk to the line, they need an extra road grader or two on the offensive front to be effective there. I've been pleased with the progression of Pears, Myers and Kuper - but it's not all there yet - and where Kuper has more size than the others, we should still get bigger. I do not think Pears is a strong run blocker and I haven't been that impressed with Holland this year. I think that's an area on the line we could extremely use help at. That right side is supposed to be road graders, and if you look on almost every team - they are.

Cutler's done well persevering and leading the team down the field to help tie games and set up some GW field goals, but the whole unit (including Jay) has to help get things done in the red zone. That fumble (freak fumble) killed our momentum and completely changed the game.

We have some tools on offense, but I cannot wait to see what we can do with a healthy group of legitimate receivers. Not that Martinez is a bad receiver, because he's proven useful on several catches - but there's always room for improvement.

I'm not as concerned as some people are with the offense, but they do need to improve. When you're averaging that many yards a game, you should be getting better results. Turnovers are costing us, and red-zone inefficiency has been troubling for more than just this season, and honestly - I don't think a damn thing would change if Jake was back there.

I'm glad Jay's who we have. Growing pains are to be expected, but when the tools all come together a year or so down the road, there won't be a question about this decision. I still don't even know why there is.

TXBRONC
10-31-2007, 01:09 PM
I'm not knocking Klis but I did see a possible explaination. I think most fans who follow know we're moving the ball but having difficulty scoring. What do they think is causing the problems?

TXBRONC
10-31-2007, 01:16 PM
interesting comparisons..

I wonder what Jake could have done with all the new toys this year and not having Jay breathing down his neck?

That said I'm glad the kid is here and I also think he handles himself under pressure very well.

It is not Jays fault, just like it was not Jakes last year.

Something is wrong on this team what it is I do not know.

I do know that considering the injuries they have had it could be a whole lot worse..

As you said it's hard to say, for sure, however considering we are using parts of the play book that we didn't use with Plummer I don't think Plummer would fit well into the type of play calling Mike his offensive staff are trying to accomplish.

topscribe
10-31-2007, 02:11 PM
Yet again, you see the offensive line having troubles in the red zone. It's not a matter of our backs not being able to get it in, it's our line not being able to do it in the red zone. They don't have the muscle mass and strength to push it in. That's just the fact.

Between the 20's this team is absolutely lethal in the running game (or has been when Henry is healthy and having more than an undrafted FA at the spot) and they have struggled immensely inside the 20's. Denver needs to add more bulk to the line, they need an extra road grader or two on the offensive front to be effective there. I've been pleased with the progression of Pears, Myers and Kuper - but it's not all there yet - and where Kuper has more size than the others, we should still get bigger. I do not think Pears is a strong run blocker and I haven't been that impressed with Holland this year. I think that's an area on the line we could extremely use help at. That right side is supposed to be road graders, and if you look on almost every team - they are.


Holland is an enigma. Here is a guy with the real bulk you were talking about.
Yet, while he has proven to be a good pass blocker, his run blocking leaves
much to be desired. Whether he has the bulk but not the strength, I don't
know.

Kuper, as you mentioned, is bigger than what we have seen at guard
(except for Holland, of course). I think his problem is simply inexperience. As
he plays, he will get better. The thing about him is his exceptional strength.
He has Nalen's type of strength, but with more body mass. I don't think the
Broncos need to replace Kuper with someone bigger; I just think Kuper needs
to play.

Myers is in much the same situation: experience. He is quick. His snaps are
crisp and sure. And he has adequate strength. If Hamilton comes back next
year and Nalen does not (age), Myers may just be good enough to keep
Hamilton at guard, where the Broncos need him more. Kuper then could
oust Holland out of RG, and, from Lepsis (who should be 100% by next year)
to Hamilton to Myers to Kuper will be a very good, strong cast. (Hamilton
doesn't weigh much at about 286, but he has exceptional quickness and
leverage.)

I share your nervousness regarding Pears. I really thought, from his work
last year at LT, he would excel RT, but it hasn't happened, and it doesn't
look as if it will. He may be more suitable for backup at LT. So the Broncos
need a RT, badly. I'm glad Foster brought Dré our way, but bad as he was
in certain areas, he was better than what the Broncos have at RT now. I
hope they can find something through FA. I would not like to see Cutler
running for his life as a rookie learns the position over there.

-----

Requiem / The Dagda
10-31-2007, 02:14 PM
Good analysis, and that was pretty much my point. Improve the right side of the line, allow Kuper and Myers to flourish, which I'm sure they will. Never liked Holland, even when he was at FSU.

jhns
10-31-2007, 04:41 PM
I share your nervousness regarding Pears. I really thought, from his work
last year at LT, he would excel RT, but it hasn't happened, and it doesn't
look as if it will. He may be more suitable for backup at LT. So the Broncos
need a RT, badly. I'm glad Foster brought Dré our way, but bad as he was
in certain areas, he was better than what the Broncos have at RT now. I
hope they can find something through FA. I would not like to see Cutler
running for his life as a rookie learns the position over there.

-----

We just got a tackle in the third round of this past draft. We can always hope that he has the offense down by the end of the season and can take over next season.

Requiem / The Dagda
10-31-2007, 04:52 PM
Harris is an ideal LT, not RT. I feel comfortable with him being a LT for the future, but as a RT, absolutely not. We still need a road-grading RT.

Lonestar
10-31-2007, 05:08 PM
Rushing touchdowns.

The stat goes up, the better our record has been over the years (post#4).

It's not the only issue (especially when it comes to the defense), but it's one of our most lethal flaws.

But for almost a decade we have not been good at close in rushing TD's save bootlegs of Jake and John, now from 15 out it has not been all that bad but inside the 10 and more importantly inside the 5 that is indeed the telling tale.

I'll say it again we need more bulk on the OLINE while we are damned good at running the ball when it gets down to th goal line you need road graders hefty guys that can clear space. most of the time they are up against 325 plus DT's plus their biggie DE that in most cases also out weigh our featherweights it is nothing but MASS down there and while sometimes a trick will work most of the time we need smash mouth and it is not there..

Broncos Mtnman
10-31-2007, 05:12 PM
I agree. We just do not have the personnel on the line to run in goal-line situations. Anything outside the 2 anyways. That has been a problem for a few years. You would think that the coaches would recognize it and modify their strategy...play to the players strengths. :confused:

What it boils down to is lack of creativity and trust. Forget this "not wanting to put too much pressure on a young QB" crap. That is just a crap excuse. Our young QB has shown several times in his short career that he not only can handle the pressure, but that he excels under it. I can live with the mistakes a young QB will make. I can live with losing because of them. I cannot stand losing "safe" football. Put your players in position to win the game and trust them to do it.

I was concerned about the o-line. But now I like what I see out of the young guys. Just like Cutler, there will be growing pains...and there were a few on Monday night. But I am anxious to see how they grow together to form into a unit. Remember they are new to each other and haven't built the trust or bond that our old lines had. I am not sure about Pears, but for the most part I like what I see in the others so far.

My main gripe though is about the coaches. Your job as a coach is to put your players in the best position to help them succeed, adapt your strategies when needed, and motivate your players. Honestly, I don't see that from the coaches this year. I still think Shanahan is a great coach. I think that he has surrounded himself with crap for assistants. He made that bed by playing the good-ol-boy game. He needs to bring in some fresh young coaches with new ideas and perspectives, IMO.

Keep Shanahan as coach...not as the acting GM. Get rid of Dennison and Dinger. Give Bates and O'Brien time.

Great post!!

I totally agree with the highlighted parts, and even mentioned something similar to this in my post game article.

Put the game on Cutler's back. He can handle it, and it will only serve to expedite his growth, not to mention that we might actually win a few games because of it.

And yes, get rid of Dinger. There's a reason he wasn't promoted to HC in NY just before Shanny brought him here. Dennison can go too!!

Broncos Mtnman
10-31-2007, 05:19 PM
Here's a few more stats:

2006 Broncos
12 rushing TDs which ranks 19th in the league
9-7 record

2005 Broncos
25 rushing TDs which ranks 3rd in the league
13-3 record


If you go back further, we had 7 rushing TDs in an 8-8 campaign... and 26 when we went 14-2.

You just gotta punch those in. No ifs ands or buts about it, the 3 rushing TDs we have this year is a major concern.

While I agree with the need to see the run game improve in the Red Zone, I don't see it as major concern.

EVERY team should play to their strengths. Work on the run game, but give the passing game (the strongest part of our offense) more opportunities to get it done.

Trick plays (like the QB keeper on MNF) suck, and only serve to deflate momentum when they don't work.

On a run play, the job of the defense is easy. You can't play Marty Ball without the tools he had (ie an LT in the backfield).

If the run is broke, use the pass!! Create complicated passing formations with so many possible scenarios, the defense won't know what to do.

Shanny used to do stuff like that. He needs to do it again. And, if the reason we aren't doing it is Dinger and Denny, then fire their sorry butts and take back the playcalling of the offense.

Git 'er done, Shanny!!

TXBRONC
10-31-2007, 06:28 PM
Harris is an ideal LT, not RT. I feel comfortable with him being a LT for the future, but as a RT, absolutely not. We still need a road-grading RT.

Lepsis started out as our RT. If Harris is to be a starter it wouldn't be bad idea to let him gain experience on the right side.

topscribe
10-31-2007, 06:44 PM
Lepsis started out as our RT. If Harris is to be a starter it wouldn't be bad idea to let him gain experience on the right side.

That would be like wasting WLB talent at SLB. Lepsis (if healthy) is now the
best offensive lineman. That would downgrade both positions, unless Harris is
good enough to beat him out, and Harris hasn't been around long enough to
to that, unless Lepsis never recovers fully from his injury . . . which, frankly, is
possible.

-----

TXBRONC
10-31-2007, 06:50 PM
That would be like wasting WLB talent at SLB. Lepsis (if healthy) is now the
best offensive lineman. That would downgrade both positions, unless Harris is
good enough to beat him out, and Harris hasn't been around long enough to
to that, unless Lepsis never recovers fully from his injury . . . which, frankly, is
possible.

-----

If Harris is as good and we think he is getting him in the starting line up on the right side is good idea. As I said that's how Lepsis started out. Also Ben Hamilton it's same thing. His natural position is center and he was inserted into the starting line up as guard several year back with intent of moving him to center when Nalen retired.

Requiem / The Dagda
10-31-2007, 07:07 PM
Starting Harris out on the right side of the line where he's a below-average run blocker isn't such a great idea, that's what he struggles with the most and did throughout his career at Notre Dame. He'd do better than Pears, but he's a left tackle for a reason. It's even possible that he'd slide into LG next year, if there are some changes.

omac
10-31-2007, 08:26 PM
But for almost a decade we have not been good at close in rushing TD's save bootlegs of Jake and John, now from 15 out it has not been all that bad but inside the 10 and more importantly inside the 5 that is indeed the telling tale.

I'll say it again we need more bulk on the OLINE while we are damned good at running the ball when it gets down to th goal line you need road graders hefty guys that can clear space. most of the time they are up against 325 plus DT's plus their biggie DE that in most cases also out weigh our featherweights it is nothing but MASS down there and while sometimes a trick will work most of the time we need smash mouth and it is not there..

I looked up some stats on RBs with the most rushing TDs this season, two of the leaders, Addai (7, Colts) and Portis (5, Redskins) had offensive lines with similar weight to Denver's. LT (6, SD), Barber (5, Dallas), Peterson (5, Vikings), have much heavier linemen.

In the case of Addai, I think the opponents respect Peyton's passing so much that it opens up the run. Addai isn't built like a Navenport or Dayne, so it's not like he can just barrell through; he uses his speed.

Portis, I'm thinking, is a bit similar in mold and style with Travis Henry.

LT, Barber, and Peterson are not only fast, but are pretty strong after contact, so with the added weight of the line, it's tough to stop them.

I think the main thing affecting our rushing TDs is the health of Travis Henry; he almost always seems to have some minor injury, and it's stopped him from completing some games. With the impending suspension, though, we'll really have to force our opponents to respect the pass, because Selvin Young is more of a speedy Addai than someone who can carry defenders a few yards.

underrated29
11-01-2007, 11:10 AM
theres a lot of factors that come into play as why we arent producing, from bonehead plays,bad play calling, etc. etc.

But i agree with dream and the others. We need to add some muscle to the oline, we arent getting the psuh we need. plain and simple.

also we need (if travis is gone, or a healthy travis) to bring in a hammer! A brandon jacobs who can run through anyone or anything for 2 yards. We need someone who can punch it in, even if the online doesnt get a great push.

I like our new guys a lot, But i think we need one or two more monsters, or better experience from our guys, to improve our rushing tds.

I will say also that i think we should play to strength of passing. And we got a freaking Pitbull and QB- and we need to let the dogs out.

fcspikeit
11-01-2007, 05:05 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7325182?source=rss

Here is what I see,

We don't have any big plays for scores. We move the ball well both passing and running. Has Henrey ran for any long scores? Has Cutler thrown any long TD passes? NO. It is great to average 4 to 5 yards running the ball but one would think in 25 carries there should be at least one long brake away run for a score. all Henrey gets is what the line gives him. So I put the blame on Henrey for this. It seems at no point is a a threat to take it to the house. Young might help us out in this case. Because he does have the speed to take it all the way after making a couple guys miss. He had the long run against the Pack that was called back for the BS holding penalty on Marshall

Think of all the short catches you have seen from other teams when the WR catches the 7 yard slant then takes it to the house. We have not had one of those this year. If we got 1 or 2 big scoring plays per game like most teams do we would be putting up 14 more points per game. Because we move the chains as well as almost anyone. But I can't think of 1 score from outside the 20.(I could be wrong on that?)

Some of this is the fault of the play calling. But I think a lot of it is on the players. When favre throws the 7 yard slant and they take it to the house it is no different then when we throw the same rout except that our guys are not taking it to the house. How many TD's does Cutler have that he did not throw to someone that is already in the end zone? It is weird because I always see Marshall run through tackles yet he has not broke one for a score why is that? We need Walker back! I believe he would help with this. Marshall is great but he is more of a position receiver as is Stokley.

Lonestar
11-01-2007, 05:59 PM
Well.. I was looking at the Green Bay game. Of the 4 possesions inside the redzone:

1st trip: 5 yd TD pass to Scheffler.

2nd trip: Fumble on the 1 yard line. Before that play it was 1st and goal on the 7 and Hall ran it 6 yards to the 1. The offense ran it when the field was short, that wasn't the problem.

Culprit: Fluke turnover

3rd trip: Just barely got into the redzone (16 yard line). 2 holding calls destroyed that series, forcing Jay to pass and he ultimately took a sack on 3rd down.

Culprit: Penalties

4th trip: 1st and 10 from the Green Bay 13. Selvin Young takes it for 9 yards. Time then becomes an issue and we're forced into a passing situation that ends with an incomplete pass and a failed QB sneak that tries to fool the defense.

Culprit: Time


Redzone running didn't kill us in this game. We need to clean up the sloppy play (penalties and turnovers) though. Also it should be noted that both teams didn't have many possessions the 2nd half of the game (3 a piece) due to both teams sustaining drives and either not scoring or kicking FGs. That helps explain the overall low scoring output.


DO you think that if we had the confidence to go do and ram it ion the run that perhaps alot of the sloppiness would go away. No trick plays are then needed.

Sometimes we get to fancy and that in its self causes indecision and therefore gives the defense that split second they need to make the difference.

TXBRONC
11-02-2007, 01:05 PM
DO you think that if we had the confidence to go do and ram it ion the run that perhaps alot of the sloppiness would go away. No trick plays are then needed.

Sometimes we get to fancy and that in its self causes indecision and therefore gives the defense that split second they need to make the difference.

I agree with you about not getting fancy, and many maybe even most of the time defense seem to right on. I think it would be good idea to throw a pass on first goal and then come back to maybe a draw play.

Lonestar
11-02-2007, 01:08 PM
I agree with you about not getting fancy, and many maybe even most of the time defense seem to right on. I think it would be good idea to throw a pass on first goal and then come back to maybe a draw play.


I'm not so sure in that last series that we had the time to do ANY running plays.

But a REAL draw with a REAL RB might have done the trick..

I also think Jay might have been able to bootleg it in or at least get out of bounds...

TXBRONC
11-02-2007, 01:13 PM
I'm not so sure in that last series that we had the time to do ANY running plays.

But a REAL draw with a REAL RB might have done the trick..

I also think Jay might have been able to bootleg it in or at least get out of bounds...

On the very last scoring drive the first play was a run to the left.

It sounds like your conceding that maybe drafting a runningback isn't bad idea. ;)

Although I will say that I think Selvin did a solid job.

Lonestar
11-02-2007, 01:26 PM
On the very last scoring drive the first play was a run to the left.

It sounds like your conceding that maybe drafting a runningback isn't bad idea. ;)

Although I will say that I think Selvin did a solid job.

I did not make myself clear when I said real RB I was referring to anyone not QB. His job is to throw the ball and hand off to RB's running with the ball should be a rare thing way to many chances for him to get hurt...

We find all the RB's we need without spending a valuable Draft choice on one.. Other than poorti$$$ who was a head case who have we drafted on day one that has worked out..

Young is gonna do well I also like Mike Bell. I see no reason to waste a pick on a day one RB..

TXBRONC
11-02-2007, 01:35 PM
I did not make myself clear when I said real RB I was referring to anyone not QB. His job is to throw the ball and hand off to RB's running with the ball should be a rare thing way to many chances for him to get hurt...

We find all the RB's we need without spending a valuable Draft choice on one.. Other than poorti$$$ who was a head case who have we drafted on day one that has worked out..

Young is gonna do well I also like Mike Bell. I see no reason to waste a pick on a day one RB..

We've ran the quarterback draw forever Jr. Since I started watching in 1977 we've ran with Morton, Elway, Griese, Plummer, and now Cutler.

It's wouldn't be a wasted pick if we get the chance to draft McFadden.

Mike
11-02-2007, 01:42 PM
It's wouldn't be a wasted pick if we get the chance to draft McFadden.

It would. Players that high are very expensive. Denver does fine at RB with lower picks in any case.

If Denver is high enough to draft McFadden then I hope they trade the pick and acquire multiple picks. A nice shiny RB would be nice, but IMO Denver needs to address several other positions before RB.

Lonestar
11-02-2007, 01:50 PM
We've ran the quarterback draw forever Jr. Since I started watching in 1977 we've ran with Morton, Elway, Griese, Plummer, and now Cutler.

It's wouldn't be a wasted pick if we get the chance to draft McFadden.

Your correct we have run the QB's forever everyone of them has gotten hurt doing it except maybe Morton I do not remember him having enough speed to do so.

As for mcfadden he is great RB but how much more is he gonna add to the equation there is only ONE BALL to play with. Not enough to go around with Walker, Graham, Stokely, Marshall, Scheffler and last but not least Jay.

Does he give us 400 more yards a year? will he solve the Red zone problem I do not think for what we would have to give to get him he bring enough to the table to justify having him. I think Young just might be the next TD someone we gave next to nothing for.

Our problems right now are DT, DL, pass pocket protection and safety (long term). The DL has been a big problem that has kept us IMO, out of the Superbowl for years since 2003 at least..

If you have some way to fix those areas LONG term and get mcfadden in the draft, with out giving away existing players. I will call Mikey tomorrow and recommend that you take sunkists job..

TXBRONC
11-02-2007, 07:51 PM
Your correct we have run the QB's forever everyone of them has gotten hurt doing it except maybe Morton I do not remember him having enough speed to do so.

As for mcfadden he is great RB but how much more is he gonna add to the equation there is only ONE BALL to play with. Not enough to go around with Walker, Graham, Stokely, Marshall, Scheffler and last but not least Jay.

Does he give us 400 more yards a year? will he solve the Red zone problem I do not think for what we would have to give to get him he bring enough to the table to justify having him. I think Young just might be the next TD someone we gave next to nothing for.

Our problems right now are DT, DL, pass pocket protection and safety (long term). The DL has been a big problem that has kept us IMO, out of the Superbowl for years since 2003 at least..

If you have some way to fix those areas LONG term and get mcfadden in the draft, with out giving away existing players. I will call Mikey tomorrow and recommend that you take sunkists job..


Not true I don't recall any of our starting quarterbacks getting hurt running the quarterback draw. You're deflecting but trying to make this about using the Jay like a running back. I haven't not advocated that nor would I. The quarterbacks that I have seen who accumulate big rushing stats don't go very far (i.e. Bobby Douglas, Randall Cunningham, and Michael Vick).

This quite a change for you. Every other time you emphatic about how we are run oriented team now all of the sudden were pass happy? Again that's a mistake, because Shanahan will continue to believe in being balanced and having running attack that coordinator fear enhances what the receivers can do.

Disclaimer: I don't know if we will even be in a position to draft him in fact, I don't think we will be. However, I do think Shanahan would take him if the opportunity presented itself. It would not be as risky to take him as it would be to take a defensive lineman and he would have a more immediate impact.

Maybe Young will be excellent runningback only time will tell. He will get his chance to prove himself soon enough because I think there is very little if any hope that Henry is going the wrap on the looming suspension. That being said, if Young should fall short, then there would be no doubt we would have to find a new starting runningback.

Again if we end up in the top five as you have been predicting then it will be hard to trade down. It's not that its a bad idea. If Shanahan goes out drafts the best offensive or defensive tackle in draft I wont have problem with it. However, the vast majority of teams don't want to give up that much just to pick that high.

Thanks for the offer to recommend me for a job with Broncos but I'm certain you have as much stroke with the organization as I do which is zilch. :salute:

speardog
11-02-2007, 08:03 PM
I must be a friggin genius because I knew Denver would have problems in the red-zone why is everyone so surprised and making a big deal about it? Scoring in the red-zone is one of the last things a young QB masters. THe spaces get tighter, the pressure more and the defense quicker. This has nothing to do with anything besides the fact that Denver has a very young offense and QB.

The losses of Smith, Hamilton and Walker hasn't helped either.

The fact is the defense was suppossed to be carrying the team while the offense gelled that hasn't happened.

TXBRONC
11-02-2007, 08:20 PM
I must be a friggin genius because I knew Denver would have problems in the red-zone why is everyone so surprised and making a big deal about it? Scoring in the red-zone is one of the last things a young QB masters. THe spaces get tighter, the pressure more and the defense quicker. This has nothing to do with anything besides the fact that Denver has a very young offense and QB.

The losses of Smith, Hamilton and Walker hasn't helped either.

The fact is the defense was suppossed to be carrying the team while the offense gelled that hasn't happened.

Do you want cookie for being right? :D I'm just kidding Spear. What you said is right in my opinion, but I think that not having Walker, Smith, and Hamilton is the bigger reason that we have had trouble in the red zone.

Lonestar
11-03-2007, 12:27 AM
Not true I don't recall any of our starting quarterbacks getting hurt running the quarterback draw. You're deflecting but trying to make this about using the Jay like a running back. I haven't not advocated that nor would I. The quarterbacks that I have seen who accumulate big rushing stats don't go very far (i.e. Bobby Douglas, Randall Cunningham, and Michael Vick).

This quite a change for you. Every other time you emphatic about how we are run oriented team now all of the sudden were pass happy? Again that's a mistake, because Shanahan will continue to believe in being balanced and having running attack that coordinator fear enhances what the receivers can do.

Disclaimer: I don't know if we will even be in a position to draft him in fact, I don't think we will be. However, I do think Shanahan would take him if the opportunity presented itself. It would not be as risky to take him as it would be to take a defensive lineman and he would have a more immediate impact.

Maybe Young will be excellent runningback only time will tell. He will get his chance to prove himself soon enough because I think there is very little if any hope that Henry is going the wrap on the looming suspension. That being said, if Young should fall short, then there would be no doubt we would have to find a new starting runningback.

Again if we end up in the top five as you have been predicting then it will be hard to trade down. It's not that its a bad idea. If Shanahan goes out drafts the best offensive or defensive tackle in draft I wont have problem with it. However, the vast majority of teams don't want to give up that much just to pick that high.

Thanks for the offer to recommend me for a job with Broncos but I'm certain you have as much stroke with the organization as I do which is zilch. :salute:


Let me be more clear. Jay has more value passing than running IMO..

We have had major injuries with QB's running the ball. Or in some cases running for their life. Greasys shoulder against OAK on a run to the sideline I think it was a rollout gone bad could be wring there Johns knee was trashed early in his career.

I do not ever remember saying Jay or any QB did not run draws but that should be a RB job. If I did not make that clear show me where so I can change it.

I said we could very well be in the top five but as it stands it looks more like top 10 or so as there a alot of bad teams out there. 40% of the league has as bad or worse record as we do right now. 13 teams.. the best we could draft if the season ended right now is 9th.

Your correct about the trading down. BUT IMHO wrong about a RB having a bigger impact than a quality DT would have for this team.

A Rb might improve the team a bit but a DT could turn the defense around.. and after all are you just looking for 3-5 years or long term. The odds are that a great DT will be around longer than a RB that takes alot of beating each and every game..

TXBRONC
11-03-2007, 10:32 AM
Let me be more clear. Jay has more value passing than running IMO..

We have had major injuries with QB's running the ball. Or in some cases running for their life. Greasys shoulder against OAK on a run to the sideline I think it was a rollout gone bad could be wring there Johns knee was trashed early in his career.

I do not ever remember saying Jay or any QB did not run draws but that should be a RB job. If I did not make that clear show me where so I can change it.

I said we could very well be in the top five but as it stands it looks more like top 10 or so as there a alot of bad teams out there. 40% of the league has as bad or worse record as we do right now. 13 teams.. the best we could draft if the season ended right now is 9th.

Your correct about the trading down. BUT IMHO wrong about a RB having a bigger impact than a quality DT would have for this team.

A Rb might improve the team a bit but a DT could turn the defense around.. and after all are you just looking for 3-5 years or long term. The odds are that a great DT will be around longer than a RB that takes alot of beating each and every game..


Apparently you're not understanding what I said using the quarterback sneak is still valuable but it isn't used as much as you seem to be alluding too.

No Jr we have not had major injuries with quarterback's running the ball that simply NOT True.

Elway injured his knee in high school he never it injured at the pro level that I can remember.

Did you or did you not say that we would 2-14/3-13? Since this isn't April that 40% you're quote means absolutely nothing.

No I'm wrong, like quarterbacks and wide receivers defensive linemen take time to develop. Ever here Mario Williams? He's doing better than he did last year but he still has a ways to go to be a dominate player.

omac
11-03-2007, 11:06 PM
Sorry for the late reply. Busy schedule and I took a bit of time combing over every redzone appearance we've had this season.

Even though it's mentioned in the article, it's actually surprising how average we are in the redzone. We've had 12 trips in the redzone that did not result in TDs:

3 trips the running game was outright stuffed.
3 times the game clock was involved (game winning FG or the end of the half).
3 times we just failed passing it in (not due to the running game).
1 time was a failed running attempt on 3rd and long (trick play?).
1 was a turnover.
1 was due to penalties.


To answer your question directly:yes. A more physical line and we move potentially into a top 5 redzone offense rather then middle of the pack. Looking at the plays, Shanahan HAS been mixing it up in the redzone. In redzone possessions that did not score a TD, Henry only has 1 carry in Goal To Go situations (all year)... That's kinda surprising. Maybe the playcalling changes with a more physical line.

I think you need to pull up more statistics then just yardage and redzone productivity to explain our Broncos lack of scoring.

7th in total yardage
14th in redzone appearances - Key stat there. The offense is bogging down before we even get into the redzone.
17th in redzone TD%. - So we're mediocre at converting our mediocre amount of redzone appearances.
22nd in turnovers - With 32 being the worst. We've had quite a few turnovers on the opponents side of the field this year.
and finally 27th in scoring.


We got a young QB with injuries all around him. The team we're marching out there - they're close but need need upgrades in certain areas (RG, RT) and players to just not be injured. Hey, at least they're moving the ball with our young QB. <shrug>

Hey Nas, real nice research and effort. Great work. :salute:

Lonestar
11-03-2007, 11:16 PM
Sorry for the late reply. Busy schedule and I took a bit of time combing over every redzone appearance we've had this season.

Even though it's mentioned in the article, it's actually surprising how average we are in the redzone. We've had 12 trips in the redzone that did not result in TDs:

3 trips the running game was outright stuffed.
3 times the game clock was involved (game winning FG or the end of the half).
3 times we just failed passing it in (not due to the running game).
1 time was a failed running attempt on 3rd and long (trick play?).
1 was a turnover.
1 was due to penalties.


To answer your question directly:yes. A more physical line and we move potentially into a top 5 redzone offense rather then middle of the pack. Looking at the plays, Shanahan HAS been mixing it up in the redzone. In redzone possessions that did not score a TD, Henry only has 1 carry in Goal To Go situations (all year)... That's kinda surprising. Maybe the playcalling changes with a more physical line.

I think you need to pull up more statistics then just yardage and redzone productivity to explain our Broncos lack of scoring.

7th in total yardage
14th in redzone appearances - Key stat there. The offense is bogging down before we even get into the redzone.
17th in redzone TD%. - So we're mediocre at converting our mediocre amount of redzone appearances.
22nd in turnovers - With 32 being the worst. We've had quite a few turnovers on the opponents side of the field this year.
and finally 27th in scoring.


We got a young QB with injuries all around him. The team we're marching out there - they're close but need need upgrades in certain areas (RG, RT) and players to just not be injured. Hey, at least they're moving the ball with our young QB. <shrug>

Thanks for your research, it helps those that tout the offense as being awesome.

Who were you quoting when you put this In

"Red-zone inefficiency, however, doesn't fully explain the Broncos' scoring problems the past two seasons. When Plummer traded in the faxed Tuesday game plan for a Sunday clipboard, the Broncos ranked an impressive sixth in red-zone scoring.

This year's offense had been similarly efficient until the Green Bay game knocked them back to 17th in the league.

What exactly is the problem, then, with the Broncos' offense? The answer can't be found in statistics. Some stats say this offense is right there with Elway's offense in the Super Bowl years.

There are instances, it seems, when stats lie."

I did not go back in the thread to see You know we can now do multiple quoting.. Makes it easier.