araps take on the game

[arapaho2]

well i could go on for paragraphs upon paragraphs but i'll cut to the jist of it....we suck. plain and simple good ole fashioned suckiness

the defense has no friggen clue with bates, they cannot get off the field on third downs and when they do manage a stop it ussually accompians a penelty, they did however play better at times tonight but yet the same ole lingering festering sore exists...we cannot get to the passer...did we even lay a hand on the old man tonight? in tthe first half we had three plays with the wrong amount of players, one had ten two had 12, totaly unprepared again...are we going to set the record of the most third and long plays allowed this year or what?
now after years of watching coyers follies i was set and demanding a change...oh how i wish we didnt go that route today..hindsight is 20/20... but in all reality we need to put blame sqaurely on the coaches, shanny included,,he allowed and supported the men bates choose for the defense...we can say how these guys suck all we want, we can say how these guys do not fit the system...but who selected guys that did not fit the system to make the team?

anyone who believes that we are better off with bates defense as opposed to coyers is in denial...i beleive bate was a mistake

on offense i feel better not alot but better...when considering we have only one oline men that started the season last year, we can move the ball and when put in perspective of all the missing starters and new personal it is a wonder, although the excuse of it being new personal is worn out..i look at the first three series...we threw the ball, we ran screens, rollouts, playactions and we moved the ball down the field and had not kup knocked the ball from cutler we probaly would have been up 14 -7 at that point which would have won the game..then in the forth we drive down and have a great 48 yard run that would have put us in goal to goal , taken away on a mysterious hold on marshel..had that not taken place we again should have won the game there

so although the offense is lacking, we are missing walker, henry, hamilton, nalen, and smith from the line up and i believe a little leway is in order, but then again the play calling is suspect...a qb draw on third and two with seconds left?? just how was that gonna benefit us again? wouldnt a nothe pass attempt with the advise to throw it away if needed been at least a chance to win right there instead of playing to tie

so in short we suck..and unless shanny does something to shake it up on defense we will continue to do so

oh and dre...if your gonna run your mouth pre game about haveing a field day..back it up exspecially in overtime cause then the only field day i saw was jennings in a 80 yard dash with you in second place

[Stargazer]

There are many things to complain about the current Bronco squad. I will pick one.

Lepsis, you have flat out sucked this year. I know you are returning from injury, but you have stunk. Every game this year you have been whipped. Rant away...

Shanny, Denver needs a new LT. And a RT. Ohhh boy...

[topscribe]

Not a bad analysis, Rap. Thanks for that.

I really don't think we have a whole lot to worry about on offense. Even if
Henry gets suspended, I see quickness, speed, power, and maturity in Young.
The WR position is surprisingly deep as a whole with Walker and Smith out
with injuries, then Marshall and Stokley being the threats they are, and
Martinez the surprise of the lot.

TE is going to be fine with Scheffler and Graham heading up the group.

Cutler is a budding star. And the O-line, while having no stars, is improving as
a group. Their performance has surprised me with Nalen, and Hamilton out and
Lepsis obviously still not at 100%. Kuper and Myers are keepers.


The defense needs a couple DTs, and a WLB more than anything. If the
Broncos are going to stay with Bates' system, they need DTs to keep the
opposing O-line off the LBs. Personally, I would like to see them get a
meaner-than-hell MLB and put Williams back at his natural position at WLB.
D.J. is okay at MLB, and he is going to get nothing but better. But while he
is playing that position, a hole exists at WLB by the name of Ian Gold.

CB is solid . . . when Champ is healthy. I am tickled with Bly at #2 and Foxy
#3. The Broncos might have the best in the league at each respective
position, i.e., Champ is the best #1, Bly the best #2, and Foxy the best #3.
Besides Champ's ailment, where the secondary was exposed tonight was in
the lack of a pass rush, not in a deficiency in the secondary. We also, BTW,
need to can Rice and keep Moss in games. Rice just does not have it anymore.

While they're at it, the Broncos have to stop picking up has-been players.
I have seen this tendency in them ever since they brought Tony Dorsett
into the fold.

Moving on, safety is a worry. Lynch is still playing at a high level, but for
how long? I do not see another Methuselah in him. And I don't know why
Ferguson hasn't been replaced as a starter before now.

DT (2 of them), safety, and WLB . . . those are the holes, IMO. And while
they are playing according to Bates' system with those deficiencies, the
Broncos will play their way into a high #1 pick this year.

IMHO.

-----

[broncosinindy]

For the most part the o line sucked. due in part that GB loaded up the box. played man to man. GB wanted not to give up any running plays or anything short in the passing game. when we actually passed down field the backfield was open. it was shannys fault for not exploiting this


Pears looked alright on one play cutler ran pretty much right into his arms. on another sack kampman simply played his butt off in pursuit. Pears gave jay the time to throw. blame shanny for trying to use any double moves with his wideouts and going long.

[Stargazer]

I really don't think we have a whole lot to worry about on offense. Even if
Henry gets suspended, I see quickness, speed, power, and maturity in Young.


Very sloppy when running the ball. Hopefully more starts will cure this(which I think will not). Or another draft pick/UDFA.

It's time to stop diggin in the garbage bin and bring in another high selection at RB.

The Broncos need to pair the young franchise QB with a young elite RB.

[broncosinindy]

Very sloppy when running the ball. Hopefully more starts will cure this(which I think will not). Or another draft pick/UDFA.

It's time to stop diggin in the garbage bin and bring in another high selection at RB.

The Broncos need to pair the young franchise QB with a young elite RB.We got a good running back in travis henery. if he is suspended that is a differant story but running the ball is not the problem with this team it is the defense. i think alot of it has to do with scheme vs players

[lex]

We got a good running back in travis henery. if he is suspended that is a differant story but running the ball is not the problem with this team it is the defense. i think alot of it has to do with scheme vs players

I wouldnt go that far. Our longest TD run is 9 yards and Travis HEnrys longest run came on the very first play of the season. Its not a big weakness like the defense but it aslo could stand to be improved a lot.

[Stargazer]

We got a good running back in travis henery. if he is suspended that is a differant story but running the ball is not the problem with this team it is the defense. i think alot of it has to do with scheme vs players

Yes, Denver has a consistently injured player running the ball who might be lost for an entire year. Where were you tonight Travis Henry? I did not agree with the signing. A player who has a tough time playing a full schedule. A player who does not provide homerun plays. And a player who was possibly one failed drug test away from a year suspension. IMO, I think Henry will be gone and I do not think Denver should rely on Young and Hall to carry the torch next season. It is time to draft another RB whether it's 1st or 2nd who exhibit extreme talent coming out of college. Yes, the scheme produces yards. How about adding a RB who produces big # in college to add to scheme which will improve with an elite runner?

The defense is definately the main problem that does need to be address with lack of talent and playmakers. The obvious route is FA/draft. Cutler was able to get the team into the playoffs last year, but the defense completely failed. And the same again is happening this season. I have mentioned in another thread who I think the Broncos should select in the 1st round. And I wouldn't go crazy if a RB was selected in the first or 2nd round.

[arapaho2]

Yes, Denver has a consistently injured player running the ball who might be lost for an entire year. Where were you tonight Travis Henry? I did not agree with the signing. A player who has a tough time playing a full schedule. A player who does not provide homerun plays. And a player who was possibly one failed drug test away from a year suspension. IMO, I think Henry will be gone and I do not think Denver should rely on Young and Hall to carry the torch next season. It is time to draft another RB whether it's 1st or 2nd who exhibit extreme talent coming out of college. Yes, the scheme produces yards. How about adding a RB who produces big # in college to add to scheme which will improve with an elite runner?

The defense is definately the main problem that does need to be address with lack of talent and playmakers. The obvious route is FA/draft. Cutler was able to get the team into the playoffs last year, but the defense completely failed. And the same again is happening this season. I have mentioned in another thread who I think the Broncos should select in the 1st round. And I wouldn't go crazy if a RB was selected in the first or 2nd round.



i dont think you see the real thing that is happening...in most games we cannot stop anyone on defense, we cannot get off the field, we have a lousy third down for firsts allowed rate...

that changes the game in itself
as a offense you must slow down the game to keep the opposing offense and your defense off the field, and so you have to go to safe easily defended plays against a stacked box, which limits the run game....you all see what happens if we take chances and have a three an out...the other team gets the ball back against our defense that still hasnt had recovery time and march right down the field in long clock killing drives...then add in the confused and injury dazed oline and its not a recipe for success


but our defense limits our offense as much as playcalling and injuries have

so i dont care if we A.D. or LJ or any top back, if the defender is gonna get to the ball carrier three yards behind the line like last night, it wouldnt matter who was running the ball....the ball carrier is not the problem

[Lonestar]

i dont think you see the real thing that is happening...in most games we cannot stop anyone on defense, we cannot get off the field, we have a lousy third down for firsts allowed rate...

that changes the game in itself
as a offense you must slow down the game to keep the opposing offense and your defense off the field, and so you have to go to safe easily defended plays against a stacked box, which limits the run game....you all see what happens if we take chances and have a three an out...the other team gets the ball back against our defense that still hasnt had recovery time and march right down the field in long clock killing drives...then add in the confused and injury dazed oline and its not a recipe for success


but our defense limits our offense as much as playcalling and injuries have

so i dont care if we A.D. or LJ or any top back, if the defender is gonna get to the ball carrier three yards behind the line like last night, it wouldnt matter who was running the ball....the ball carrier is not the problem

It is and always has been the DL on the LOS or the past few weeks the DL behind OUR side of the LOS.
SINCE at least 2003 when Manning played toss and catch all damned day it has been DL specifically DT..or lack there of.

Packers took control of the lOS on runs and for the most part in the pass protection and had their way with DEN defense.

If we can get another Sam Adams type on the LOS with him or to spell him it will take alot of pressure off the DE and LB to play on the other side of the LOS.

[arapaho2]

It is and always has been the DL on the LOS or the past few weeks the DL behind OUR side of the LOS.
SINCE at least 2003 when Manning played toss and catch all damned day it has been DL specifically DT..or lack there of.

Packers took control of the lOS on runs and for the most part in the pass protection and had their way with DEN defense.

If we can get another Sam Adams type on the LOS with him or to spell him it will take alot of pressure off the DE and LB to play on the other side of the LOS.


i still dont know if its merely a lack of talent or simply the way bates plays them...we all seen his scheme..dts hold the line, Des play wide....and i just dont think it is working...in the pitt game they said we scrapped his system...and we did get some great pressure on ben ...four sacks...now it seems we resorted back to the bates principle and again never touched brett once...so i dont care if we have the best DT in the game, if bates doesnt let them attack the line, then they will not get tackles for loss or pressure since they are already playing on our side of the line trying not to get pushed back as opposed to attacking

i do know this much...it is easier to hold a block when your leverage is going forward then it is when your back peddling

[jlarsiii]

well i could go on for paragraphs upon paragraphs but i'll cut to the jist of it....we suck. plain and simple good ole fashioned suckiness

anyone who believes that we are better off with bates defense as opposed to coyers is in denial...i beleive bate was a mistake





I won't argue with you that we definitely suck at the moment. However, I am growing tired of seeing people bash on Bates when he is only partially to blame. Here's why. . .

If Coyer was here our defense would be no better. I am sorry but this defense is just plain sorry. We lost some influential players (like Al Wilson and E Ekuban) that were really the best players for us last year. If Coyer was here we would have a similar, but slightly different problem. We still wouldn't be able to get to the qb. The opposing team would pass for days and days on this defense. Then they would ram the ball down our throats. It would not be any different.

I, for one, am willing to give Bates more then half a season. I am especially willing to considering that he is using personnel that he himself did not choose. These are players drafted by Shanny and Coyer to fit their schemes. Now we have a new scheme and the personnel that we have do not match it very well.

It is the same reason why we couldn't switch to a 3-4 alignment. For however bad this defense is we would be even worse in a 3-4. The reason why is because we don't have the players to run it. Could you just imagine what that would be like. We can't even put 3 decent LBs out there so where would we come up with 4 that could actually take on a beat an o-lineman if needed. It wouldn't happen.

I am very interested to see what Bates can do in the next two seasons if he is given that time and can bring in the types of players that will fit his scheme. I think all fans are shortchanging this coach and his ability to produce very good defenses.

You guys can blame him all you want but you all know that there isn't a single defensive coach out there that could produce a good defense with our current roster. We just don't have the players.

[jlarsiii]

While they're at it, the Broncos have to stop picking up has-been players.
I have seen this tendency in them ever since they brought Tony Dorsett
into the fold.

Moving on, safety is a worry. Lynch is still playing at a high level, but for
how long? I do not see another Methuselah in him. And I don't know why
Ferguson hasn't been replaced as a starter before now.

DT (2 of them), safety, and WLB . . . those are the holes, IMO. And while
they are playing according to Bates' system with those deficiencies, the
Broncos will play their way into a high #1 pick this year.

IMHO.

-----

I agree with you Top. It would be nice to try to correct the deficiencies that you have pointed out. However, you just know Shanny will try to do it by bringing in more has beens. I am losing faith that he could ever get it done by simply drafting players. Our FO always manages to squander our draft picks it seems.

[arapaho2]

I won't argue with you that we definitely suck at the moment. However, I am growing tired of seeing people bash on Bates when he is only partially to blame. Here's why. . .

If Coyer was here our defense would be no better. I am sorry but this defense is just plain sorry. We lost some influential players (like Al Wilson and E Ekuban) that were really the best players for us last year. If Coyer was here we would have a similar, but slightly different problem. We still wouldn't be able to get to the qb. The opposing team would pass for days and days on this defense. Then they would ram the ball down our throats. It would not be any different.

I, for one, am willing to give Bates more then half a season. I am especially willing to considering that he is using personnel that he himself did not choose. These are players drafted by Shanny and Coyer to fit their schemes. Now we have a new scheme and the personnel that we have do not match it very well.

It is the same reason why we couldn't switch to a 3-4 alignment. For however bad this defense is we would be even worse in a 3-4. The reason why is because we don't have the players to run it. Could you just imagine what that would be like. We can't even put 3 decent LBs out there so where would we come up with 4 that could actually take on a beat an o-lineman if needed. It wouldn't happen.

I am very interested to see what Bates can do in the next two seasons if he is given that time and can bring in the types of players that will fit his scheme. I think all fans are shortchanging this coach and his ability to produce very good defenses.

You guys can blame him all you want but you all know that there isn't a single defensive coach out there that could produce a good defense with our current roster. We just don't have the players.


and so i ask...just who selected these current players we have on defense?...thats right jim bates, who determined we could cut the best DT we had in warren? thats right jim bates...who allowed us to trade a draft pick for a DT then cut him?...thats right jim bates...who determined we could cut the best TE man we had in sam brandon....thats right jim bates
we can go on an on about not haveing the right personal for his system all we want...in the end what matters is shanny gave him control over the defense and the players we got or kept, and it has been a dismal failure..he selected this crew of misfit toys

[jlarsiii]

and so i ask...just who selected these current players we have on defense?...thats right jim bates, who determined we could cut the best DT we had in warren? thats right jim bates...who allowed us to trade a draft pick for a DT then cut him?...thats right jim bates...who determined we could cut the best TE man we had in sam brandon....thats right jim bates
we can go on an on about not haveing the right personal for his system all we want...in the end what matters is shanny gave him control over the defense and the players we got or kept, and it has been a dismal failure..he selected this crew of misfit toys

You are kidding, right? You show me how Bates made all of the draft selections for our defensive players. He didn't choose the current players on our roster, he worked with what we had on our roster when he got here. At least we can agree on that part. When he noticed how deficient we were in some areas he probably tried to go after players that were available that we could afford to acquire. If you think about our cap situation that sure isn't a lot of wiggle room especially when you consider how much money we spent on offensive FAs like Henry and Graham. Word is Warren didn't want to play the style of DT that Bates needed in his system. So I ask you, what do you do with a player that refuses to adapt to your system? We are not the Raiders. . . we won't continue to pay players that refuse to be part of our system (like Moss or Porter did in Oakland).

To me it looks like you are just trying to come up with reasons to discredit Bates. That is fine. . . be my guest. What would be nice would be to have Coyer come back and run this D so you could see how bad it would still be. After all, we are talking about Coyer's players that Bates is now using. If you want a preview of what that would be like why don't you watch tape of our defense from last year except take out Wilson and Ekuban and see how they would do. Go ahead and keep your scapegoat while I focus on the real problem. . . .a lack of talent on our defense.



I am not sure but I remember reading that Brandon wasn't the same players after his injuries. If that is the case maybe that was why he was let go, but I don't have any proof to back that up just at the moment.

[arapaho2]

You are kidding, right? You show me how Bates made all of the draft selections for our defensive players. He didn't choose the current players on our roster, he worked with what we had on our roster when he got here. At least we can agree on that part. When he noticed how deficient we were in some areas he probably tried to go after players that were available that we could afford to acquire. If you think about our cap situation that sure isn't a lot of wiggle room especially when you consider how much money we spent on offensive FAs like Henry and Graham. Word is Warren didn't want to play the style of DT that Bates needed in his system. So I ask you, what do you do with a player that refuses to adapt to your system? We are not the Raiders. . . we won't continue to pay players that refuse to be part of our system (like Moss or Porter did in Oakland).

To me it looks like you are just trying to come up with reasons to discredit Bates. That is fine. . . be my guest. What would be nice would be to have Coyer come back and run this D so you could see how bad it would still be. After all, we are talking about Coyer's players that Bates is now using. If you want a preview of what that would be like why don't you watch tape of our defense from last year except take out Wilson and Ekuban and see how they would do. Go ahead and keep your scapegoat while I focus on the real problem. . . .a lack of talent on our defense.



I am not sure but I remember reading that Brandon wasn't the same players after his injuries. If that is the case maybe that was why he was let go, but I don't have any proof to back that up just at the moment.


you been watching bronco ball long?...cause if you had you would have noticed year in an out we complained about not upgradeing the dline only to see us go other ways and have shanny search the dumpsters for usable parts

this year we change to bates and suddenly we go all out drafting dline, bringing in players, adams, rice, ect you darn bet bates had a big say on who we kept, drafted and brought in, as for warren ...warren is a penatrater a run stuffer, excactly what we seem to be lacking doesnt it? also adams has said he preferrs to attack as opposed to set back and react, so is gordon a penatrater, fact is he brought in several big bodies and he kept who he wanted and apparently none that could run his system, ,,,facts is facts bates set this defense up with players of his choosing,,, and it doesnt work
now did you notice something in the pittsburg game at least in the first half...we ran little of what looks like bates scheme, but allowed the dts to disrupt the plays on thier side of the ball, coincedently we had more sacks of ben then we did in the last two meetings..why ? because we allowed the dts to play to their strengths and attack ...now we go right back to set back and react and we never touched favre

now we have bailey, lynch, ferg, bly who is a better player then DW was last year, dumervil, engleburger, williams, gold, wbster, gordon.. who all were on the top five run defense of last year..with Moss , rice, thomas and crowder being better ten the backups of last season and adams and warren kinda a wash...so why the decline if the talent improved? i also recall we let go of the best de run stopper we had in lang..

no bates chose his players and let players go that coulda helped
furthermore if we dont have te talent to run his system then a good Dc would design a defense to fit the talent he does have..at least until he finds what he wants, fact is if he played to their strengths it would improve our defense alot

[Lonestar]

I won't argue with you that we definitely suck at the moment. However, I am growing tired of seeing people bash on Bates when he is only partially to blame. Here's why. . .

If Coyer was here our defense would be no better. I am sorry but this defense is just plain sorry. We lost some influential players (like Al Wilson and E Ekuban) that were really the best players for us last year. If Coyer was here we would have a similar, but slightly different problem. We still wouldn't be able to get to the qb. The opposing team would pass for days and days on this defense. Then they would ram the ball down our throats. It would not be any different.

I, for one, am willing to give Bates more then half a season. I am especially willing to considering that he is using personnel that he himself did not choose. These are players drafted by Shanny and Coyer to fit their schemes. Now we have a new scheme and the personnel that we have do not match it very well.

It is the same reason why we couldn't switch to a 3-4 alignment. For however bad this defense is we would be even worse in a 3-4. The reason why is because we don't have the players to run it. Could you just imagine what that would be like. We can't even put 3 decent LBs out there so where would we come up with 4 that could actually take on a beat an o-lineman if needed. It wouldn't happen.

I am very interested to see what Bates can do in the next two seasons if he is given that time and can bring in the types of players that will fit his scheme. I think all fans are shortchanging this coach and his ability to produce very good defenses.

You guys can blame him all you want but you all know that there isn't a single defensive coach out there that could produce a good defense with our current roster. We just don't have the players.

I thought we would be better than we are. Bates is a master has proven it a couple of times when given decent players to work with.

But the key to his program IS a master blaster DT fast DE and fast LBs that can tackle.

So what does he really have now a MLB with a torn back muscle. A ultra fast OLB that can chase anyone down but can't tackle ONE good DT that can hold his water one ultra rookie in Thomas that needs alot of work to get rid of the rust and needs about 15-20 more pounds. One ultra rookie De and as mall but fast second year player that has less than 10 solid games under his belt the rest are all journeyman player at best.

I'm not inculding DBs becuse tehy are now having to cover the DL's ass..
Give the guy one more massive DT and then someone next year to cover Sams departure and I think everyone will be VERY pleased with his coaching..


Folks the sooner we write this season off and move on the better you are gonna be, no kicking the dog, beating the wife and Gods knows what Y'all are doing to your kids.
I would hate to see the doors and walls of some of your houses..

I figured out early this year that this year is rebuilding and now it is just surviving and am content to wait till next year when most of these rookies will have almost a full season under their belts and be pissed about 2007..

[speardog]

I'm very encouraged by what the offense is doing. I thought this year Denver was going to have to rely on the defense to win games and well, the offense has played pretty well. Trouble in the red zone but Denver is moving the ball.

The defense is another story. I don't really think they are that far off. With a years experience next year the DL will be vastly improved especially with another DT playing next to Thomas. Denver's DL might be great next year.

Denver needs to get an experienced MLB and move DJ back he is just horrible in the middle. Draft the best safety availble and a LB and DT. Re-sign Stokley and I see 2008 as all roses. Of course that is just what kind of guy I am.crhat

[jlarsiii]

you been watching bronco ball long?...cause if you had you would have noticed year in an out we complained about not upgradeing the dline only to see us go other ways and have shanny search the dumpsters for usable parts

this year we change to bates and suddenly we go all out drafting dline, bringing in players, adams, rice, ect you darn bet bates had a big say on who we kept, drafted and brought in, as for warren ...warren is a penatrater a run stuffer, excactly what we seem to be lacking doesnt it? also adams has said he preferrs to attack as opposed to set back and react, so is gordon a penatrater, fact is he brought in several big bodies and he kept who he wanted and apparently none that could run his system, ,,,facts is facts bates set this defense up with players of his choosing,,, and it doesnt work
now did you notice something in the pittsburg game at least in the first half...we ran little of what looks like bates scheme, but allowed the dts to disrupt the plays on thier side of the ball, coincedently we had more sacks of ben then we did in the last two meetings..why ? because we allowed the dts to play to their strengths and attack ...now we go right back to set back and react and we never touched favre

now we have bailey, lynch, ferg, bly who is a better player then DW was last year, dumervil, engleburger, williams, gold, wbster, gordon.. who all were on the top five run defense of last year..with Moss , rice, thomas and crowder being better ten the backups of last season and adams and warren kinda a wash...so why the decline if the talent improved? i also recall we let go of the best de run stopper we had in lang..

no bates chose his players and let players go that coulda helped
furthermore if we dont have te talent to run his system then a good Dc would design a defense to fit the talent he does have..at least until he finds what he wants, fact is if he played to their strengths it would improve our defense alot

Whatever Arap. I didn't know that you got to sit in on the meetings, and talk to the players about how they play and what they want to do.

Bates came in and we at least drafted D-line like you said. How many did Coyer draft in his tenure here, of that bunch how many were draft selections in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round?

I have watched the Broncos for a long time. I have watched Coyer's defense for the entirety of when he was here. Let me give you a little recap. . .

His philosophy was to have the d-line play run first and foremost. Only in certain situations would he have them go after the qb, and they were so pitiful at doing so that he would have to call the "send everyone and the kitchen sink" blitz to try to get any pressure on the qb. In fact, Coyer was so delusional that he let our ONLY good d-linemen walk (his name was Pryce in case you don't recall). So the teams that played us took advantage of it. They attacked us with the pass. It shouldn't be hard for you to remember how many, many teams picked us apart with the pass (Indy ring a bell here). The stats never tell the whole truth. It is why our current defense has a decent rating as far as passing is concerned. Why pass on this defense when you can run for 200+ yards almost every week?

You talk about the players that we still have but you make no mention of the players that we lost or the ones that are playing in new position. You keep trying to make the point that Coyer could do better with these players, and I don't think so. You can only polish a turd so much. . .

Bates has only had one offseason to work on this defense. You, me, and the FO gave Coyer years to work on his and it never really got to the championship level that they wanted. Heck, he couldn't even get it to the level where we wouldn't lose by 20+ points to Indy every year in the playoffs. However, even though you are ready to dump Bates he has already shown that his is willing to do something that Coyer never was. Can you guess what that is? Well, he is at least willing to make adjustments and try new things which is more than Coyer ever did. They may or may not have worked but at least he knew his unit was bad and he tried to do something about it. Against both Indy and Pittsburgh we tried variations of his defense to try to get something out of them. Coyer would have stucked to his same old crappy scheme and we would have been beat down again. If you don't believe me then just look at how our d performed against Pitt in the AFCCG or versus Indy in the playoffs the last couple of trips to the postseason.

You can keep Coyer. We got rid of him because he couldn't get the job done. I am willing to give Bates more than half a season just like I am willing to give Cutler a couple of years to develop. You are just being foolish in thinking that half a season proves anything. . . .

[dogfish]

I won't argue with you that we definitely suck at the moment. However, I am growing tired of seeing people bash on Bates when he is only partially to blame. Here's why. . .

If Coyer was here our defense would be no better. I am sorry but this defense is just plain sorry. We lost some influential players (like Al Wilson and E Ekuban) that were really the best players for us last year. If Coyer was here we would have a similar, but slightly different problem. We still wouldn't be able to get to the qb. The opposing team would pass for days and days on this defense. Then they would ram the ball down our throats. It would not be any different.

I, for one, am willing to give Bates more then half a season. I am especially willing to considering that he is using personnel that he himself did not choose. These are players drafted by Shanny and Coyer to fit their schemes. Now we have a new scheme and the personnel that we have do not match it very well.

It is the same reason why we couldn't switch to a 3-4 alignment. For however bad this defense is we would be even worse in a 3-4. The reason why is because we don't have the players to run it. Could you just imagine what that would be like. We can't even put 3 decent LBs out there so where would we come up with 4 that could actually take on a beat an o-lineman if needed. It wouldn't happen.

I am very interested to see what Bates can do in the next two seasons if he is given that time and can bring in the types of players that will fit his scheme. I think all fans are shortchanging this coach and his ability to produce very good defenses.

You guys can blame him all you want but you all know that there isn't a single defensive coach out there that could produce a good defense with our current roster. We just don't have the players.



good post, i agree completely. . . i was calling for bates a full year before we got him, no way in hell i'm going to turn on the guy after just under half a season. . . if it hasn't gotten better by the end of next year, i might be willing to call the hiring a mistake-- and even then it'll be debatable if he doesn't have some better talent to work with. . .

rap, you say he got to choose his own players, but that's only partially true-- for one thing, you know shanahan and possibly sundquist as well had some input into those decisions. . . and when it comes to DT-- the position that's truly killing us right now!-- even if bates had the final say he sure didn't have much to pick from to begin with! admittedly, i think cutting warren was a mistake-- not because he's so great, but simply because the other options it left us with were so BAD. . . but it's not like jimmy kennedy or demetrin veal are exactly lighting it up somewhere else-- as far as i know they're both out of football right now, which pretty much tells you what you need to know. . . the best of our DTs is a raw rookie, and he IS a guy who's on the team largely because bates wanted him. . .

whose stupid idea it was to deactivate moss and let rice whine his way back into the lineup we have no way of knowing for sure, but hopefully it'll be rectified next week. . .

bates certainly can't be blamed for ian useless gold's big contract, either. . . and given the desperate shape of our DL, it's hard to argue that it shouldn't have been the top priority over the offseason-- you can only rebuild so many spots at a time, and the project there is still only halfway done. . . and as somebody else pointed out, sam brandon is physically unable to play, just like al wilson-- bates can't be blamed in either of those cases. . .

given the lack of talent in the front seven and at the safety positions other than john lynch, it was overly optimistic for anyone to think this efense could be completely retooled in just one year. . . give the guy another year to bring in "his" guys-- and the luck to keep a few of 'em healthy-- and i absolutely believe we'll see results . . .

[Lonestar]

good post, i agree completely. . . i was calling for bates a full year before we got him, no way in hell i'm going to turn on the guy after just under half a season. . . if it hasn't gotten better by the end of next year, i might be willing to call the hiring a mistake-- and even then it'll be debatable if he doesn't have some better talent to work with. . .

rap, you say he got to choose his own players, but that's only partially true-- for one thing, you know shanahan and possibly sundquist as well had some input into those decisions. . . and when it comes to DT-- the position that's truly killing us right now!-- even if bates had the final say he sure didn't have much to pick from to begin with! admittedly, i think cutting warren was a mistake-- not because he's so great, but simply because the other options it left us with were so BAD. . . but it's not like jimmy kennedy or demetrin veal are exactly lighting it up somewhere else-- as far as i know they're both out of football right now, which pretty much tells you what you need to know. . . the best of our DTs is a raw rookie, and he IS a guy who's on the team largely because bates wanted him. . .

whose stupid idea it was to deactivate moss and let rice whine his way back into the lineup we have no way of knowing for sure, but hopefully it'll be rectified next week. . .

bates certainly can't be blamed for ian useless gold's big contract, either. . . and given the desperate shape of our DL, it's hard to argue that it shouldn't have been the top priority over the offseason-- you can only rebuild so many spots at a time, and the project there is still only halfway done. . . and as somebody else pointed out, sam brandon is physically unable to play, just like al wilson-- bates can't be blamed in either of those cases. . .

given the lack of talent in the front seven and at the safety positions other than john lynch, it was overly optimistic for anyone to think this efense could be completely retooled in just one year. . . give the guy another year to bring in "his" guys-- and the luck to keep a few of 'em healthy-- and i absolutely believe we'll see results . . .


Bates made a HUGE difference IMO on getting 3 count them, three DL guys this year and having Kennedy warren prior to draft day and then picking up Adams after mitigated looking hard at More DT's. Until both Kennedy and warren went belly up on us we were stacked pretty good at DT it was always the thought to bring Thomas along slowly.

Had Bates not been here Mikey would be still be scouring the garbage bins for DT's and probably DE during FA time.. He has NEVER place a premium on Quality DL guys. Since price burnt him he has been less than motivated in this area.

[fcspikeit]

well i could go on for paragraphs upon paragraphs but i'll cut to the jist of it....we suck. plain and simple good ole fashioned suckiness

the defense has no friggen clue with bates, they cannot get off the field on third downs and when they do manage a stop it ussually accompians a penelty, they did however play better at times tonight but yet the same ole lingering festering sore exists...we cannot get to the passer...did we even lay a hand on the old man tonight? in tthe first half we had three plays with the wrong amount of players, one had ten two had 12, totaly unprepared again...are we going to set the record of the most third and long plays allowed this year or what?
now after years of watching coyers follies i was set and demanding a change...oh how i wish we didnt go that route today..hindsight is 20/20... but in all reality we need to put blame sqaurely on the coaches, shanny included,,he allowed and supported the men bates choose for the defense...we can say how these guys suck all we want, we can say how these guys do not fit the system...but who selected guys that did not fit the system to make the team?

anyone who believes that we are better off with bates defense as opposed to coyers is in denial...i beleive bate was a mistake

on offense i feel better not alot but better...when considering we have only one oline men that started the season last year, we can move the ball and when put in perspective of all the missing starters and new personal it is a wonder, although the excuse of it being new personal is worn out..i look at the first three series...we threw the ball, we ran screens, rollouts, playactions and we moved the ball down the field and had not kup knocked the ball from cutler we probaly would have been up 14 -7 at that point which would have won the game..then in the forth we drive down and have a great 48 yard run that would have put us in goal to goal , taken away on a mysterious hold on marshel..had that not taken place we again should have won the game there

so although the offense is lacking, we are missing walker, henry, hamilton, nalen, and smith from the line up and i believe a little leway is in order, but then again the play calling is suspect...a qb draw on third and two with seconds left?? just how was that gonna benefit us again? wouldnt a nothe pass attempt with the advise to throw it away if needed been at least a chance to win right there instead of playing to tie

so in short we suck..and unless shanny does something to shake it up on defense we will continue to do so

oh and dre...if your gonna run your mouth pre game about haveing a field day..back it up exspecially in overtime cause then the only field day i saw was jennings in a 80 yard dash with you in second place

I agree with you for the most part arap,

I have a few things to ad though,

We could not stop their running game with our front 7 so we switched to put 8 and 9 guys in the box. After that we had all the 10 and 12 guys on the field penalties. It was like we had to switch our defensive game plan mid stream to something we had not practiced for all week. That being said I though both Champ and Bly played well! they were in man to man for the most part of the game. It is unfair to ask them to do what no other CB is asked to do because our D-line sucks so bad then blame them for losing us the game. Besides that, they only gave up 13 points in regulation. Bly was tight on the line but at least he forced Favre to make the hard throw. If our CB's had been loose then they would have just picked us apart underneath all the way into field goal range. Props to Favre for making the tuff throw!

I thought Shanny not kicking the 55 yard field goal was dumb! Elam can make that kick! I can't believe how they let the Pack's CB's get away with all the holding. It was terrible every play they where holding our WR's.

Also what the hell happened on the 3? Young ran the ball right to the first down mark, he was only a couple inches short if at all. We missed the TD pass, then when we lined up before the Cutler run we were at least a yard away from the first down? Cutler ran right to the first down marker. Why didn't they measure it? He was close enough to measure. Even if it was short the booth should have checked the spot of the ball. If we got that first down we had 18 seconds to spike, take 2 shots at the end zone then if we didn't get the TD we could have kicked the field goal.

It was the same as the Buffalo game. The refs need to pull their head out of their butts! The clock should have been stopped in both games to measure. Shanny can't call for the measurement because it's inside of 2 minutes but when it is within a couple inches they should have to measure it! The booth should have to Instant reply the spot because it is close and game changing. We all know Shanny would have called for the measurement then challenged the spot if it was short if he could have. It is up to the booth to do it because the coaches can't.

I have watched the Cutler run a couple times and I really think he made it! They did give us a bad spot, but even then it was close enough to stop the clock and measure. Why didn't they? It is BS. We had no choice but to kick the field goal.

The league needs to look into this!

[omac]

I have watched the Cutler run a couple times and I really think he made it! They did give us a bad spot, but even then it was close enough to stop the clock and measure. Why didn't they? It is BS. We had no choice but to kick the field goal.

The league needs to look into this!

Yeah, that's a good point. What's the ruling regarding those matters? 1st and goal, and that's an immediate spike, maybe enough for a pass play and another spike.

[arapaho2]

Whatever Arap. I didn't know that you got to sit in on the meetings, and talk to the players about how they play and what they want to do.

Bates came in and we at least drafted D-line like you said. How many did Coyer draft in his tenure here, of that bunch how many were draft selections in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round?

I have watched the Broncos for a long time. I have watched Coyer's defense for the entirety of when he was here. Let me give you a little recap. . .

His philosophy was to have the d-line play run first and foremost. Only in certain situations would he have them go after the qb, and they were so pitiful at doing so that he would have to call the "send everyone and the kitchen sink" blitz to try to get any pressure on the qb. In fact, Coyer was so delusional that he let our ONLY good d-linemen walk (his name was Pryce in case you don't recall). So the teams that played us took advantage of it. They attacked us with the pass. It shouldn't be hard for you to remember how many, many teams picked us apart with the pass (Indy ring a bell here). The stats never tell the whole truth. It is why our current defense has a decent rating as far as passing is concerned. Why pass on this defense when you can run for 200+ yards almost every week?

You talk about the players that we still have but you make no mention of the players that we lost or the ones that are playing in new position. You keep trying to make the point that Coyer could do better with these players, and I don't think so. You can only polish a turd so much. . .

Bates has only had one offseason to work on this defense. You, me, and the FO gave Coyer years to work on his and it never really got to the championship level that they wanted. Heck, he couldn't even get it to the level where we wouldn't lose by 20+ points to Indy every year in the playoffs. However, even though you are ready to dump Bates he has already shown that his is willing to do something that Coyer never was. Can you guess what that is? Well, he is at least willing to make adjustments and try new things which is more than Coyer ever did. They may or may not have worked but at least he knew his unit was bad and he tried to do something about it. Against both Indy and Pittsburgh we tried variations of his defense to try to get something out of them. Coyer would have stucked to his same old crappy scheme and we would have been beat down again. If you don't believe me then just look at how our d performed against Pitt in the AFCCG or versus Indy in the playoffs the last couple of trips to the postseason.

You can keep Coyer. We got rid of him because he couldn't get the job done. I am willing to give Bates more than half a season just like I am willing to give Cutler a couple of years to develop. You are just being foolish in thinking that half a season proves anything. . . .


you are backing up my post...you are confirming just waht imsaying here...bates in fact was a big influence in the draft....bates was a big influence in free agency...bates was the guy who picked who stayed on the team on defense......so why is he getting a free ride because of the "wedont have the right personeltorun his system...hello!!! he picked them

and again imnot saying fire bates....im saying we need to quit with the wrong personel crap....he picked them...if they are wrong...he picked them...if they cant play his system...he picked them

coyer never demanded draft pickes, coyer never demanded a dline fix,,,,his defnse crumbled and he's gone
bates picked his ingrediants but the meal is just as bland

[dogfish]

you are backing up my post...you are confirming just waht imsaying here...bates in fact was a big influence in the draft....bates was a big influence in free agency...bates was the guy who picked who stayed on the team on defense......so why is he getting a free ride because of the "wedont have the right personeltorun his system...hello!!! he picked them

and again imnot saying fire bates....im saying we need to quit with the wrong personel crap....he picked them...if they are wrong...he picked them...if they cant play his system...he picked them

coyer never demanded draft pickes, coyer never demanded a dline fix,,,,his defnse crumbled and he's gone
bates picked his ingrediants but the meal is just as bland


you can only do so much in one year-- one draft, one free agency period-- when you don't have crap to start with. . . he got TWO good players to work with in the entire defensive front seven (dumervil and dj)-- you really think he can bring in 3-5 quality starters in one year when we spend big dollars on graham and henry? it's not like we had unlimited funds and draft picks to work with. . .


people need to give bates another year before they judge him. . . and it doesn't help that we lost ekuban and holdman, 2 projected starters, to injury right before the season even started-- long past the time when there was much available to replace them. . . crowder was hurt all through TC and the first few games of the season, which clearly hindered his development early. . . and marcus thomas hadn't played football in almost a year-- he's been starting to show some signs lately, though. . .

now that he's had a year to evaluate what he's got here, i can almost assure you we'll be getting at least one new starting DT and one new starting OLB in the offseason, whether we do it through the draft or free agency. . . give the guy a FAIR chance to get some usable talent in place. . . or if you're going to criticise him, show me which guys we SHOULD have gotten in the offseason who would be better than the stiffs we have. . . the free agent market wasn't exactly flooded with elite linebackers and DTs this past year. . .

[Lonestar]

you can only do so much in one year-- one draft, one free agency period-- when you don't have crap to start with. . . he got TWO good players to work with in the entire defensive front seven (dumervil and dj)-- you really think he can bring in 3-5 quality starters in one year when we spend big dollars on graham and henry? it's not like we had unlimited funds and draft picks to work with. . .


people need to give bates another year before they judge him. . . and it doesn't help that we lost ekuban and holdman, 2 projected starters, to injury right before the season even started-- long past the time when there was much available to replace them. . . crowder was hurt all through TC and the first few games of the season, which clearly hindered his development early. . . and marcus thomas hadn't played football in almost a year-- he's been starting to show some signs lately, though. . .

now that he's had a year to evaluate what he's got here, i can almost assure you we'll be getting at least one new starting DT and one new starting OLB in the offseason, whether we do it through the draft or free agency. . . give the guy a FAIR chance to get some usable talent in place. . . or if you're going to criticise him, show me which guys we SHOULD have gotten in the offseason who would be better than the stiffs we have. . . the free agent market wasn't exactly flooded with elite linebackers and DTs this past year. . .

amen brother.. rome was not built in a day. mikey has been tinkering with the offense for 5-6 years now (since the rat pack left)..still not quite there..