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Skinny
10-29-2007, 11:43 AM
System remains true to mentor's vision

By TOM SILVERSTEIN
Oct. 28, 2007

Denver - Along the way there have been bumps, lots of bumps, some of them as big as Ahmad Carroll's ego or as confounding as Mark Roman's tackling or as unnerving as Marquand Manuel's coverage ability.

But the vision Jim Bates had for the Green Bay Packers' defense has become a reality in its third year in practice.

Thanks to the work of Bates' right-hand man, Bob Sanders, and the staff that stayed behind with him, the Packers are playing winning defense, keeping their team in every game and winning some when they have to. After two years of instability, the Packers' defense is the one constant in a 5-1 start.

And so it may be with envy that Bates witnesses the Packers' defense from the other sideline tonight at Invesco Field at Mile High Stadium. Back in coaching a year after falling short of his bid to succeed Mike Sherman as head coach, Bates can't be anything but proud of what the current staff has accomplished.

"I think so," said defensive tackles coach Robert Nunn, a longtime colleague and close friend of Bates'. "He keeps up with us. I talk with him often. He kept up with us last year and was constantly in touch with us.

"It was funny how he could watch a game on TV and you would have thought he had watched the tape because he knew exactly what happened. He'd call us and say something like, 'What was that guy doing?' "

The Packers have maintained Bates' match-coverage scheme as their defensive foundation but Bates himself is running a vastly different system as assistant head coach/defense of the Broncos. Those who have studied the defense say it appears to be more the blitzing style of Bob Slowik, another former Packers defensive coordinator who is on the Broncos' staff.

When the teams take the field tonight, it's likely Bates' influence will show more on the Packers' side of the field than on the Broncos'.

"It's all because of personnel," Nunn said. "You have to adjust to what you have. He's very good at doing that. We've kept it intact, but it's because of players. We have the players. We try to fit what we do with what we're able to do."

The system, however, is what Nunn, Sanders and Bates all strongly believe in. They have believed in it since they were all together as part of the Miami Dolphins' defensive staff during the early part of the decade.

Sanders worked with some pretty bright defensive minds at the University of Florida, including Bates, Oklahoma coach Bob Stoops and Illinois coach Ron Zook, but he was attracted to the unique concept of the scheme Bates taught him in Miami. The roots of the system go back to the Dallas Cowboys of the Jimmy Johnson era when smaller, quicker linebackers became acceptable.

Bates learned the system in Dallas under Johnson and Dave Wannstedt and then used it in Miami after Wannstedt brought him in to be his defensive coordinator.

"This a very, very good system," Sanders said. "It causes offenses a lot of problems. Not a lot of people do it; not a lot of people really know how to do it. We're not a man-to-man team, we're a match team. It's been effective. It puts our guys in position to win. That's the object.

"You try not to give up big plays in any defense, but the bottom line is not letting them score so you can win games. From that standpoint, it's been a very effective system."

Entering play tonight, the Packers rank a respectable 15th in defense, but that clearly doesn't tell the whole story. They're 11th in points allowed, fifth in third-down efficiency, 11th in yards allowed per carry and have held opposing quarterbacks to a 56.7 completion percentage.

They have allowed nine passing touchdowns but no reception longer than 40 yards.

That's a vast improvement from two years ago - their first in the system - and a solid improvement from a year ago when they leaked big plays like a spaghetti strainer, giving up 14 plays of 40 yards or more and a dizzying 37 touchdowns. This year, they're on pace to give up eight plays of 40 yards or more and 29 touchdowns.

"They needed time to grow into it and to learn what can hurt you," Nunn said of the transition to the new system. "One thing now when we get burned on something, our guys usually know what happened. When we first started out, we got burned it was, 'What happened?'

"It's just experience running it and we have good personnel."

General manager Ted Thompson has fed the Packers with a steady flow of players who fit the scheme and that has contributed greatly to the improvement of the defense. Only five starters are the same from the usual lineup Bates used in his one and only season as the Packers' defensive coordinator.

The system doesn't ask the players to do more than they're able.

Sanders' "match concept" features a combination of traditional man-to-man bump technique by the cornerbacks with a zone or "match" coverage by the linebackers and safeties. There is man-to-man defense played, but in most cases the defenders are in man-to-man only until a specified player leaves their zone; then they have help.

Blitzing is used sparingly and often it's on run downs.

The addition of cornerback Charles Woodson might have been the most important component of the team's success because now the Packers have two cornerbacks holding up opposing receivers.

The defensive line plays a run-oriented two-gap system, but it benefits from the bump-and-run coverage because the quarterback can't always deliver the ball as fast as he would like.

"It's a system that fits my philosophy of how you play football," coach Mike McCarthy said. "I believe to win the world championship you need to challenge the opponent. We have the ability to choke an opponent."

The defense is far from a finished product but they're certainly a better defense than they were when Bates took over and pretty close to the model their architect designed.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=679791

Lonestar
10-29-2007, 12:00 PM
lets hope that GM mikey will get him the rest of the bodies he needs to get the job done this coming year..

Requiem / The Dagda
10-29-2007, 02:03 PM
lets hope that GM mikey will get him the rest of the bodies he needs to get the job done this coming year..

When are you going to understand that Shanahan isn't the GM?

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10-29-2007, 02:59 PM
When are you going to understand that Shanahan isn't the GM?

I think he is implying that in many ways Shanny is the GM de facto, even if he
isn't in name. In fact, it appears that he could fire the GM, which is reverse of
the usual case. Shanny has more authority and decision-making power than
the normal case, it seems.

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TXBRONC
10-29-2007, 03:19 PM
I think he is implying that in many ways Shanny is the GM de facto, even if he
isn't in name. In fact, it appears that he could fire the GM, which is reverse of
the usual case. Shanny has more authority and decision-making power than
the normal case, it seems.

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Dan Reeves had basically the same level of control that Shanahan does now.

Lonestar
10-29-2007, 03:22 PM
When are you going to understand that Shanahan isn't the GM?


I think he is implying that in many ways Shanny is the GM de facto, even if he
isn't in name. In fact, it appears that he could fire the GM, which is reverse of
the usual case. Shanny has more authority and decision-making power than
the normal case, it seems.

-----

It seems that even though someone else has the title it is in name only..

Would you rather have AJ Smith or the GM for NE or Sunkist?

I know who I'd rather have..


















Anyone but mikey..

Requiem / The Dagda
10-29-2007, 03:22 PM
I think he is implying that in many ways Shanny is the GM de facto, even if he
isn't in name. In fact, it appears that he could fire the GM, which is reverse of
the usual case. Shanny has more authority and decision-making power than
the normal case, it seems.

-----

More or less my beef is that JR never seems to place blame on Sundquist, the rest of the player personnel department (Goodman) and the scouting department when it comes to making draft selections or in regards to scouting of players who are in the NFL, which relates to finding players via Free Agency. Shanahan just seems to get the end of the stick with everything in JR's mind. "Daft in the draft."

You're only as good as the people working around you. Hopefully with Goodman, DiStefano and several others who have experience and some young and up and coming scouts - things can change. It seems for the past few years, they have.

Lonestar
10-29-2007, 03:23 PM
Dan Reeves had basically the same level of control that Shanahan does now.

I also have some ocean front land for sale in El Paso if you REALLY believe that.

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10-29-2007, 03:28 PM
Dan Reeves had basically the same level of control that Shanahan does now.

That was part of Reeves' demands in his contract negotiations. He wanted full
control. What had transpired here with Ralston might have stuck in his memory.
If my own memory isn't mixed up, Ralston started out as GM. He decided to
step down as coach, so he hired a GM to succeed him, then placed himself
under that GM as Head Coach. Later, that GM (I forget his name off the top)
turned around and fired Ralston! The way Reeves had it and Shanny has it,
only one person in the entire organization can fire him: the owner.

Anyway, back to the topic, it seems Shanny is leaning on Bates in a lot of
decisions he may not have trusted Coyer with. And Bates really does appear
to have more going above the shoulders than did Coyer.

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Requiem / The Dagda
10-29-2007, 03:29 PM
I also have some ocean front land for sale in El Paso if you REALLY believe that.

You also have a problem with not being able to spread the blame around down through the whole department. However, I guess it's easier for you just to place it on one man. Makes it easy for you to make (false) points and arguments.

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10-29-2007, 03:30 PM
More or less my beef is that JR never seems to place blame on Sundquist, the rest of the player personnel department (Goodman) and the scouting department when it comes to making draft selections or in regards to scouting of players who are in the NFL, which relates to finding players via Free Agency. Shanahan just seems to get the end of the stick with everything in JR's mind. "Daft in the draft."

You're only as good as the people working around you. Hopefully with Goodman, DiStefano and several others who have experience and some young and up and coming scouts - things can change. It seems for the past few years, they have.

Except for one thing: Shanny does make all the final decisions.

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10-29-2007, 03:31 PM
You also have a problem with not being able to spread the blame around down through the whole department. However, I guess it's easier for you just to place it on one man. Makes it easy for you to make (false) points and arguments.

Let's don't make the poster the topic here.

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TXBRONC
10-29-2007, 03:34 PM
I also have some ocean front land for sale in El Paso if you REALLY believe that.

Watch it Jr. Yes Reeves did hold a position very similar to that of Shanahan. If you don't think so go back and look who fired him. It was Bowlen himself not the GM.

TXBRONC
10-29-2007, 03:37 PM
Except for one thing: Shanny does make all the final decisions.

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Lee Rasizer wrote an article for TSN about how personnel decisions are made, and was very clear that everyone has input and nearly every personnel made is by group process.

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10-29-2007, 03:40 PM
Lee Rasizer wrote an article for TSN about how personnel decisions are made, and was very clear that everyone has input and nearly every personnel made is by group process.

That is very true. But the final call is made by one person.

I cannot imagine who that would be, if not Shanny.

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omac
10-29-2007, 04:01 PM
It seems that even though someone else has the title it is in name only..

Would you rather have AJ Smith or the GM for NE or Sunkist?

I know who I'd rather have..


















Anyone but mikey..

A.J. Smith .... so he can do a power struggle and kick the head coach out and bring in Norv Turner. Yeah, brilliant move there A.J. :D

No thanks, I wouldn't want A.J. Smith anywhere near this Bronco team.

jhns
10-29-2007, 04:13 PM
That is very true. But the final call is made by one person.

I cannot imagine who that would be, if not Shanny.

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I think he is trying to make the point that if Shanny is getting horrible information on scouted players, he isn't able to make those decisions. If the scouts and others (whoever gives input) are telling him to look at a bunch of bad players, then he has to pick the best of the bad players. If those same people came to him with a bunch of future stars, his decisions would look a LOT better.

Whatever they have done, we have started getting far more talent than usual onto this team. I am really excited about the next few seasons as they all get experience and gel.

Requiem / The Dagda
10-29-2007, 05:01 PM
TX is right. It's a group think process. Shanahan is only as good at making selections as the people below him. Does he make the final call? Sure, but it's based off the information he's getting from Sundquist, Goodman and the whole scouting department. Cutler more than likely would have never been a Denver Bronco had it not been for Jeff Fisher and their boys who got to see Cutler up close and personal at the Senior Bowl (and plus the Titans being in the area) had they not got that information. I think it's pretty interesting that perhaps our best draft pick over the past four to five years came off of information that came from other coaches and scouting staffs, and self-admitted nothing based on anything personal Shanahan or his men saw of him.

I've always been critical of our drafting, but I've placed the emphasis all around the board rather than on one man himself. Goodman has spoke on several occasions on his job, and how the scouts go about theres - and I was absolutely appalled by what little information they need to have to form a scouting report. Two games (in person) is all a scout on our staff needs to formulate a report on a player.

How sad is that? I'm more than sure they go into depth on some players, but the fact is - how can you even evaluate a player completely based on two games? I've always worried that Denver has placed more emphasis on the workout numbers players put out and how they perform at Mobile rather than how they've faired throughout their college career. I could give numerous examples of players who had average to spotty college careers, but worked out amazingly and played well in the Senior Bowl and became future Broncos draft selections. I think over the past few drafts we've seen things change, but it's still a work in progress.

Where Shanahan deserves blame and heat for the lack of quality youth talent on this team (which seems to be changing with players we have now and hopefully in the future) it does not all go on him. As mentioned earlier, you can only be as good as the people around you - and if your scouts are giving false reports on players based on limited experience and aren't working to the best of their capabilities (for instance, Jim Goodman touting how they had "discovered" Brandon Marshall at the N/S All-Star game - when Marshall was regarded as one of the top ten to fifteen receivers in the draft prior to that) you're bound to have problems.

Shanahan deserves some blame. The scouting and player personnel departments (and those working in them) deserve blame as well. Also, a hot rumor - it seems like Sundquist is getting most of the heat for the FA decisions than Shanahan is, and he definitely deserves blame on that avenue.

I'm not a fan of personal vendettas on one individual in any arena, whether it's sports or politics - but clearly it's not all on Shanahan. He may have the power, but he makes his decisions based on what information he's given. Self-admitted, due to his responsibilities as a coach and VP of Football Operations, he doesn't have as much time to individually scout players as he'd like. That's why we need to make better use of the resources we have. Also, I would give him the benefit of the doubt, considering we almost always have to mortgage premium value to get in position to draft top talent.

Such is the downside to being one of the most consistent, winning franchises in the NFL.

Lonestar
10-29-2007, 07:04 PM
A.J. Smith .... so he can do a power struggle and kick the head coach out and bring in Norv Turner. Yeah, brilliant move there A.J. :D

No thanks, I wouldn't want A.J. Smith anywhere near this Bronco team.

AJ Smith was has had a good runs in bringing in quality draft choices, BTW how did Chambers wind up in SAN I do not remember seeing anything on this..

AJ Smith allowed with Marty the two coordinators to be promoted out of SAN, he only fired Marty when Marty insisted in bringing his son to be the one of the coordinators.

Did AJ do the right thing? Sure nuff just not soon enough to make/get a good choice to replace him with. Marty would still be there if he did not insist on promote or hiring his son to I think DC spot.

SAN would never win a Superbowl with Marty everyone knows that..

TXBRONC
10-29-2007, 07:06 PM
AJ Smith was has had a good runs in bringing in quality draft choices, BTW how did Chambers wind up in SAN I do not remember seeing anything on this..

AJ Smith allowed with Marty the two coordinators to be promoted out of SAN, he only fired Marty when Marty insisted in bringing his son to be the one of the coordinators.

Did AJ do the right thing? Sure nuff just not soon enough to make/get a good choice to replace him with. Marty would still be there if he did not insist on promote or hiring his son to I think DC spot.

SAN would never win a Superbowl with Marty everyone knows that..

They had a lot better shot at winning a Super Bowl with Marty as the H.C. than they do with Norv in my opinion.

Lonestar
10-29-2007, 07:08 PM
I think he is trying to make the point that if Shanny is getting horrible information on scouted players, he isn't able to make those decisions. If the scouts and others (whoever gives input) are telling him to look at a bunch of bad players, then he has to pick the best of the bad players. If those same people came to him with a bunch of future stars, his decisions would look a LOT better.

Whatever they have done, we have started getting far more talent than usual onto this team. I am really excited about the next few seasons as they all get experience and gel.

pray tell then how did we make some dammed good decisions on veteran and some FA but suck at drafting them per 2004..

Seems to me that the scouting group did a good job on one hand then suck on the other. NO it boils down to who made the final decision and I believe that EVERYONE knows who made the final call.

Your correct about having more talent than at anytime since the S/B years

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10-29-2007, 07:15 PM
They had a lot better shot at winning a Super Bowl with Marty as the H.C. than they do with Norv in my opinion.

You got that right. I think everyone in that FO sat down to a meal of loco
weed just before firing Marty. :der:

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Lonestar
10-29-2007, 07:15 PM
They had a lot better shot at winning a Super Bowl with Marty as the H.C. than they do with Norv in my opinion.

Marty could never get them over the hump he lost every big game he ever coached..

Norv I'm not sold on him either, but with the talent that SAN now has I'm not sure that Micky the mope could coach it to the S/B that is if somehow NE does not meet them. Now that they have Chambers (when did he come from MIA) I do not see any real weak spots on offense. Greatest TE and RB really good WR QB is way above average and the OLINE is coming on strong.. Maybe the defensive secondary but comarty seemed to play possessed yesterday.

This year it is gonna be a real dog fight between INDY, NE and SAN..whoever plays in those games will be the real Superbowl..

Requiem / The Dagda
10-29-2007, 07:17 PM
So, why is Shanahan to blame? If the scouts give poor reports on players and push for specific ones that they feel could contribute well, and they turn out bad - it's Shanahan's fault for listening to those who give him his information?

Sounds real logical. . . not.