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Requiem / The Dagda
10-29-2007, 10:43 AM
Here's another article critiquing our spotty drafting and FA pick-ups over Shanahan's tenure.

Article (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=3084020)

I agree with a lot of the article, but saying that "Moss and Crowder have yet to earn a starting position." shows a real lack of understanding on our defensive line. Oh well. . .

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10-29-2007, 10:56 AM
Ummm . . . well, the guy completely ignored Stokley and Scheffler. And
Marshall's DUI is hardly a Ray Lewis procedure.

The author talks as if there is nothing around Cutler. And I don't know what
receivers and RBs who have gone by the wayside have to do with the ones
who are here now. And Tater wasn't just issued walking papers. He did bring
us Dré. It's a wonder the author didn't include Portis in his perception of the
Broncos drafting failures since he's not here, either.

I don't think it was a very good article. That's not your fault, of course, and I
do thank you for the read.

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underrated29
10-29-2007, 11:01 AM
WHAT I DONT LIKE Is people saying jay is the next john elway or the next brett favre. He is jay cutler, the next gerat qb. He is not john, he is not brett, he is jay.

look at champ, they dont say he is the next dion sanders- they say he is champ one of the greats.

Lonestar
10-29-2007, 11:22 AM
Actually I thought it was pretty much on the mark, although a few errors did not help it. BUT if one looks at the depth chart not what happened in ONE game it still shows engelberger & gordon as the starters. So has moss and Thomas supplanted those yet or simply played more than they did last week.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=134

I still believe that mikey's fast and loose personnel decisions over the past 13 years will continue to be the real heart of the problem in DEN until they get a true PROFESSIONAL GM.

In that area he seems to have hit the bulleye...

Lonestar
10-29-2007, 11:25 AM
WHAT I DONT LIKE Is people saying jay is the next john elway or the next brett favre. He is jay cutler, the next gerat qb. He is not john, he is not brett, he is jay.

look at champ, they dont say he is the next dion sanders- they say he is champ one of the greats.

Yes it bothers me also but unless someone/thing is used as a measuring devise many readers not conversant of the Broncos would not have a clue. and frankly most fans in DEN, most of the media in DEN have already used John and Jay in the same sentence ad nauseam. ..

Get used to it, it will happen many more times.

jlarsiii
10-29-2007, 11:26 AM
Actually I thought it was pretty much on the mark, although a few errors did not help it. BUT if one looks at the depth chart not what happened in ONE game it still shows engelberger & gordon as the starters. So has moss and Thomas supplanted those yet or simply played more than they did last week.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=134

I still believe that mikey's fast and loose personnel decisions over the past 13 years will continue to be the real heart of the problem in DEN until they get a true PROFESSIONAL GM.

In that area he seems to have hit the bulleye...

I agree with your statement 100%.

SR
10-29-2007, 11:31 AM
No mention of Ashley Lelie in the list of WRs that Shanny drafted who have since departed.

Lonestar
10-29-2007, 11:33 AM
No mention of Ashley Lelie in the list of WRs that Shanny drafted who have since departed.


Either a slip by him or he felt that he was not worth mentioning.

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10-29-2007, 11:35 AM
Actually I thought it was pretty much on the mark, although a few errors did not help it. BUT if one looks at the depth chart not what happened in ONE game it still shows engelberger & gordon as the starters. So has moss and Thomas supplanted those yet or simply played more than they did last week.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=134

I still believe that mikey's fast and loose personnel decisions over the past 13 years will continue to be the real heart of the problem in DEN until they get a true PROFESSIONAL GM.

In that area he seems to have hit the bulleye...

It's interesting you're going back 13 years since the past three years or so
have been pretty good in the draft and FA. This stretch of time has
produced the likes of Cutler, Henry, Young, Scheffler, Graham, Walker, Sapp,
Marshall, Stokley, Sauerbrun, Kuper, Myers, Pears, Holland, Thomas, Moss,
Dumervil, Crowder, Webster, Bly, Foxworth, Paymah, Lynch, and Bailey . . .
and, of course, there was D-Will.

Most of these people are pretty good players. I think it's time to forget
about 13 years ago and give Shanny & co. props for what they have done
this last three years or so.

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Lonestar
10-29-2007, 11:52 AM
It's interesting you're going back 13 years since the past three years or so
have been pretty good in the draft and FA. This stretch of time has
produced the likes of Cutler, Henry, Young, Scheffler, Graham, Walker, Sapp,
Marshall, Stokley, Sauerbrun, Kuper, Myers, Pears, Holland, Thomas, Moss,
Dumervil, Crowder, Webster, Bly, Foxworth, Paymah, Lynch, and Bailey . . .
and, of course, there was D-Will.

Most of these people are pretty good players. I think it's time to forget
about 13 years ago and give Shanny & co. props for what they have done
this last three years or so.

-----

While you are correct I remains to be seen IF this Draft choices do indeed stick his past history doe not bode well for it to happen.

Now Granted they seem to be heads and above what he did on the first ten years, you just can't sweep it under the table as if it never happened.

Most of his past choices never made it past training camp 3. Of those that did many were only special teams folks.

Now I said many and I did not mean all, as there were a few that did make it mainly LB's, RB and OLINE, but beyond those two categories he drilled a lot of dry holes..

We all know that most of our OLINE guys would not be in the NFL as starters on any one else's teams had it not been expect for apprenticeships in DEN.

HE hit it strong with 4 quality LB's but blew a couple also. But TOP beyond those two areas almost all of his RB except a couple of RB's again that most likely would have not be drafted or seen time in the NFL (poorti$$ not included).
DEN is an anomaly where RB and OLINE is concerned.

Mikey has really only done well with a few FA players. And he has blown alot of those pick ups also.

I believe deep down in your gut you and almost any clear thinking fan have to agree that you build your team via the draft and are long term successfully if you do it that way.

Now I will say he has taken IMO a great step forward this past couple of years in the draft, but will those players become the back bone of this team for years to come only time will tell and I have to ask did mikey make those decisions this past year by himself or did Bates have a HUGE say in who was taken?

TXBRONC
10-29-2007, 12:04 PM
Either a slip by him or he felt that he was not worth mentioning.


Maybe so but his mentioning of Griffin wasn't flattering by any means.

Lonestar
10-29-2007, 12:07 PM
Maybe so but his mentioning of Griffin wasn't flattering by any means.


TX let it go.

It does not bother me as much, as it seems to bother you.

You are not hurting my feelings a bit. I got over him getting cut a couple of years ago. You obviously think it still is something to argue about..

TXBRONC
10-29-2007, 12:18 PM
TX let it go.

It does not bother me as much, as it seems to bother you.

You are not hurting my feelings a bit. I got over him getting cut a couple of years ago. You obviously think it still is something to argue about..

Apparently you don't know how to let go spewing negativity about Lelie. Once you can stop bashing other players I will stop bring up the guys like Griffin.

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10-29-2007, 12:19 PM
Now Granted they seem to be heads and above what he did on the first ten years, you just can't sweep it under the table as if it never happened.
Well, I believe that once it gets far enough into the past you can put it into
the past. Unless you want to discuss the bust of Grady Cavness, for
instance.


Now I said many and I did not mean all, as there were a few that did make it mainly LB's, RB and OLINE, but beyond those two categories he drilled a lot of dry holes..You negleted WRs. Would you consider Walker, Marshall, and Stokley "dry
holes"? And how about Graham and Scheffler at TE?


We all know that most of our OLINE guys would not be in the NFL as starters on any one else's teams had it not been expect for apprenticeships in DEN.Funny, but our worst O-lineman from last year is now a starter: Carlisle.
You trying to tell me that Lepsis, Hamilton, or Nalen could not start
elsewhere? Kuper is regarded to be loaded with talent, and if Myers
continues to be solid at center has he has been, then he will be considered
a genuine starter. Methinks you are a bit pessimistic on our O-line.


HE hit it strong with 4 quality LB's but blew a couple also. But TOP beyond those two areas almost all of his RB except a couple of RB's again that most likely would have not be drafted or seen time in the NFL (poorti$$ not included).
DEN is an anomaly where RB and OLINE is concerned.Well, Tater was good enough to bring us Bly (or at least Shanny managed
to fool Detroit into thinking so). MA in his prime proved to be a very good
RB, and he would have been anywhere. Henry is proven, and, while he has
yet to prove his durability, Young has a 7.7 YPA and is considered a good
blocker and receiver (something Tater was not, in both counts, admittedly).



Mikey has really only done well with a few FA players. And he has blown alot of those pick ups also.I think you have just described the FA results of virtually every team in the
league.


I believe deep down in your gut you and almost any clear thinking fan have to agree that you build your team via the draft and are long term successfully if you do it that way.I believe deep down in my gut that this is a myth. A team is built with
quality players, whether it is through draft, FA, and/or trade. How did NE
get Moss, Stallworth, Welker, Faulk, Aladius Thomas, and Seau, among
others, for instance?


Now I will say he has taken IMO a great step forward this past couple of years in the draft, but will those players become the back bone of this team for years to come only time will tell and I have to ask did mikey make those decisions this past year by himself or did Bates have a HUGE say in who was taken?Well, indeed, Bates might have had a lot of influence on the infusion of
defensive talent. If this is the case, then good, however it happened. The
bottom line is the acquisition of talent, isn't it?--Not necessarily how it got
here or by whom. And I don't have any doubts about Thomas, Moss,
Dumervil, Crowder, Cutler, Sheffler, or Marshall, do you? I'm not worried
about Myers or Kuper, either. (Pears makes me nervous at times.)

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Lonestar
10-29-2007, 01:05 PM
Well, I believe that once it gets far enough into the past you can put it into the past. Unless you want to discuss the bust of Grady Cavness, for instance.

You negleted WRs. Would you consider Walker, Marshall, and Stokely "dry
holes"? And how about Graham and Scheffler at TE?

Now TOP I said Draft choices that does not include Stokely Walker or graham who were great players, acquired after they had time in the NFL to prove themselves. In fact we could have had Walker up front but mikey chose ashley instead.

Marshall looks like a stud and hopefully he will become on long term IF he can grow up.

Funny, but our worst O-lineman from last year is now a starter: Carlisle.
You trying to tell me that Lepsis, Hamilton, or Nalen could not start
elsewhere? Kuper is regarded to be loaded with talent, and if Myers
continues to be solid at center has he has been, then he will be considered
a genuine starter. Methinks you are a bit pessimistic on our O-line.

I do not think that any of our current OLINE would have been drafted by anyone outside DEN. (excepting the RG who was indeed from another team) they are self made men on this team. and I doubt seriously that if they would have been on any other team they would not be starting. Now that does not mean they could not play in the NFL and we will not lose player to other teams it is as a general rule they are much smaller than the prototype NFL OLINE guys, therefore overlooked by them.

Well, Tater was good enough to bring us Bly (or at least Shanny managed
to fool Detroit into thinking so). MA in his prime proved to be a very good
RB, and he would have been anywhere. Henry is proven, and, while he has
yet to prove his durability, Young has a 7.7 YPA and is considered a good
blocker and receiver (something Tater was not, in both counts, admittedly).

Again IMO tater was a bust in DEN and probably will be in DET. did he have a good year last year sure he did enough as you put it to get us BLY, But then almost anyone can get a thousand yards in DEN.

Thenry was not drafted and frankly if he can get clean could be a GREAT RB in DEN there goes those character issues again, young was not drafted by ANYONE and we all know in our hearts if DEN had not drafted MA he would have gone FA to someone. We all know the reasons for this. The DEN system makes RB's look good.

I think you have just described the FA results of virtually every team in the
league.

I believe deep down in my gut that this is a myth. A team is built with
quality players, whether it is through draft, FA, and/or trade. How did NE get Moss, Stallworth, Welker, Faulk, Aladius Thomas, and Seau, among others, for instance?

You know that NE had a great nucleus and adding a few key guys has made that team unbelievable. They built that team via the draft and have lost more quality drafted players over the years to FA than they have picked up IMO.

Well, indeed, Bates might have had a lot of influence on the infusion of
defensive talent. If this is the case, then good, however it happened. The
bottom line is the acquisition of talent, isn't it?--Not necessarily how it got
here or by whom. And I don't have any doubts about Thomas, Moss,
Dumervil, Crowder, Cutler, Sheffler, or Marshall, do you? I'm not worried
about Myers or Kuper, either. (Pears makes me nervous at times.)

-----



Let me state that mikey's drafting prior to Dwill draft IMO sucked, but his choices in FA and trade have for the most part been wise ones when character was not an issue, we all know there have been a few BAD gambles in that area.

Now that all said I think this team without major injury this year could have if all the pieces fell together, could have been a really good team.

Next year with all the rookies getting playing time and experience, depending on Walker and Thenry this could be a GREAT team. Maybe not good enough to get past IND or NE as they currently are configured, but a top echelon team.

If they get a couple of Big bodies to replace Sam and create some depth this team could be scary..

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10-29-2007, 01:12 PM
Let me state that mikey's drafting prior to Dwill draft IMO sucked, but his choices in FA and trade have for the most part been wise ones when character was not an issue, we all know there have been a few BAD gambles in that area.

Now that all said I think this team without major injury this year could have if all the pieces fell together, could have been a really good team.

Next year with all the rookies getting playing time and experience, depending on Walker and Thenry this could be a GREAT team. Maybe not good enough to get past IND or NE as they currently are configured, but a top echelon team.

If they get a couple of Big bodies to replace Sam and create some depth this team could be scary..

Well, you may be right there. This year, they just have too much going on.
Not only new players, but many of them new rookie players, to go along
with new systems: offensive, defensive, and STs. It's no wonder the
Broncos have had their butts handed to them in a couple games and are
lucky they didn't go into the Pittsburgh game at 0-5.

It seems we saw some of that talent start to come together in the Pitt
game. Hope so, anyway. We'll know more after tonight, won't we?

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In-com-plete
10-29-2007, 01:42 PM
Well, Tater was good enough to bring us Bly (or at least Shanny managed
to fool Detroit into thinking so). MA in his prime proved to be a very good
RB, and he would have been anywhere. Henry is proven, and, while he has
yet to prove his durability, Young has a 7.7 YPA and is considered a good
blocker and receiver (something Tater was not, in both counts, admittedly).
-----

Tatum and Foster brought us Bly.

Tatum being an early 2nd round pick. Foster a mid 1st round pick.

Requiem / The Dagda
10-29-2007, 01:43 PM
JR, you put way too much emphasis on Shanahan when it comes to draft selections and free agents being brought in. I don't think I've ever seen you criticize Ted Sundquist once.

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10-29-2007, 01:45 PM
Tatum and Foster brought us Bly.

Tatum being an early 2nd round pick. Foster a mid 1st round pick.

Yes, I know all that. Just trying to keep it simple.

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eessydo
10-29-2007, 01:49 PM
I am not so sure why people are picking apart this article and our draft so much. The article was not far from the truth and probably had more detail in it until he was forced to trim it down for the final "print".

Who really cares. As for our draft, we have dealt a few of those players that have and have not panned out for other good players. You can damn Shanahan if you want, but every year we are in contention for the playoffs.

It is not like we are the laughing stock of the league, we are average to above average almost every year. So they have taken a few shots in the draft that did not work out, oh well. We may not have the patriots formula at this point, but we do have 2 superbowls and plenty of playoff appearances including an AFC title game. Can't be doing too awful to make all of that happen.

In-com-plete
10-29-2007, 01:49 PM
Yes, I know all that. Just trying to keep it simple.

----

I figured you did.

It's just, that's 2 early draft pick busts. 2 guys who had worn out their :welcome:.

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10-29-2007, 03:45 PM
I figured you did.

It's just, that's 2 early draft pick busts. 2 guys who had worn out their :welcome:.

Whatever deficiencies Mikey might have had in drafting, he often made up for
in the way he raped and ravaged other teams. Witness Washington, Cleveland,
and Detroit,for instance. :nixon:

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eessydo
10-29-2007, 05:08 PM
Whatever deficiencies Mikey might have had in drafting, he often made up for
in the way he raped and ravaged other teams. Witness Washington, Cleveland,
and Detroit,for instance. :nixon:

-----

Let's not bring up Cleveland. That's like having sex with an ugly fat stripper with chlamydia. Might of looked good after a couple of drinks the night before, but now you have realized your mistake and have to live with some longer term, painful consequences for your actions. We just got a shot of penicillin to cure that in this past draft but it may take a couple of more doses before shaking the burning sensation we got out of that deal.

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10-29-2007, 05:17 PM
Let's not bring up Cleveland. That's like having sex with an ugly fat stripper with chlamydia. Might of looked good after a couple of drinks the night before, but now you have realized your mistake and have to live with some longer term, painful consequences for your actions. We just got a shot of penicillin to cure that in this past draft but it may take a couple of more doses before shaking the burning sensation we got out of that deal.

Why?

Everyone views the Cleveland deals as disasters. The only thing keeping the
Courtney Brown deal from being terrific was injuries. Warren and Myers gave
the Broncos some serviceable time. Lang helped them over the hump. And
Ekuban is still a good DE (but oh, do we miss him in the running game!). He
is just injured right now, that's all. Nope, the Broncos did quite well for no
more than they gave up.

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lex
10-29-2007, 08:12 PM
I recommend doing this. I posted this elsewhere:

Just for fun, I went and did draft where we would make a trade to draft high enough to select McFadden. First, we trade Foxworth, Gold, our 2008 1st, 2009 1st & 3rd. Then we sign Teddy Lehman and Boss Bailey. So here it is:

1) Darren McFadden, RB
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=56491
2) Dre Moore, DT
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=10964
4) Duane Brown, OT
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=11685
4) Maurice Murray, DT
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=73860
5) Jeremy Zuttah, OL
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=33570
5) Bryan Kehl, OLB
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=68185
7) Joe Fields, S
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings....php?pyid=9466
7) Paul Raymond, WR/Ret
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=22150

Nick
10-29-2007, 11:33 PM
I recommend doing this. I posted this elsewhere:

Just for fun, I went and did draft where we would make a trade to draft high enough to select McFadden. First, we trade Foxworth, Gold, our 2008 1st, 2009 1st & 3rd. Then we sign Teddy Lehman and Boss Bailey. So here it is:

1) Darren McFadden, RB
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=56491
2) Dre Moore, DT
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=10964
4) Duane Brown, OT
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=11685
4) Maurice Murray, DT
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=73860
5) Jeremy Zuttah, OL
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=33570
5) Bryan Kehl, OLB
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=68185
7) Joe Fields, S
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings....php?pyid=9466
7) Paul Raymond, WR/Ret
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...php?pyid=22150

They are not going to get rid of the next 2 years of future #1 picks.

If we did what you said right here we will be a losing team for years to come. Draft is not about "Now" but the "future"

So lets say we do this.

We have some pretty big holes at Saftey still. Ferguson and Lynch might retire. Joe fields is not going to step in and be a impact what so ever in the NFL.

Next...

We have a huge hole at nickle corner. With the subtraction of a guy that is last year of his contract (might as well subtract that trade and list not re-signing him. If you do not want foxworth)

We will still have a hole on OLB with getting rid of one outside line backer and added another one that is not going to have a huge impact on our team right away with Boss. Boss is not going to do any better then Gold. Ian does not look the greatest for several reasons including a new supporting class, DT's and DE's stopping the run. We will only get a 6th round draft pick at best for him.

Also I would like to include... I rather have gold than Lehman @ strong side and Boss... With Webster and Kehl as depth.. Specially with Kehl only racking up numbers this year against very bad teams IMO.

So we will be worse at LB.. No better at Saftey.. worse at CB... minus a couple #1 picks (which is not worth McFadden IMO)

Lets go to WR... We still have huge hole there. No added depth.

Running back. Ok, we got a high profile back coming out of the draft. I do not think I need to tell you but a RB is the least of our worries right now. Also the Broncos do not grab to many backs in the first round. Who was thew last back... Steven Sewell couple years after elway.

I would hate for the Broncos to give up the farm to not get better at overall depth and be worse on almost every single position... With the possibility of having better depth on the deffensive and offensive line.

This is not madden football and this will be a foolish thing for a organization to do.

This is one of the worse draft things I have ever seen for the Broncos.

Lets say we pick # 15.

We have the option to pick up a decent player in a not so deep draft.

Okam might drop (DT)

Dan Conner might drop (LB)

Reach a little for Kenny Phillips (S) Or Laurinaitis (LB)

Get Slaton and have depth at RB

Our what I would like for the broncos to do at that situation is trade down and get a 1st and get Ray Rice (RB) or Doucet or Kelly at wide reciever. You figure one of those guys will be available at the end of the first round. Package up a bunch of picks to Dallas and get two of them...

If we get two late round 1st rounders... you can get Harvey at LB, Deshaun Jackson (probably be a late 2nd rounder because of size)... Bowman at WR from Oklahoma (My sleeper) 6 foot 4 and around 250.

You can also get maualuga or Keith Rivers at LB or sedrick ellis at DT... from USC.

In 2nd round your have the option for a few backs to with the guy from orgeon Stewart or mike hart

In the third you have tashard choice, chris johnson, james davis or Charles from Texas in the fourth.

I think we have a lot better options then trading everything for a a guy that we would have to trade up for.

I like a lot of the wide receivers coming out and think Cutler can be complimented a great deal through this draft including staying put and getting a very solid prospect at DT,LB, or Saftey.

You need to remember there is not many solid safties that will be free agents or going to be in draft this year.

Broncos have a lot of option and basically not smart to forfeit everything for 1 RB.

Stargazer
10-30-2007, 12:21 AM
Tatum and Foster brought us Bly.

Tatum being an early 2nd round pick. Foster a mid 1st round pick.

That is some serious bust going on there. And people fail to mention Bly received a hefty contract.:shocked:

lex
10-30-2007, 01:17 AM
They are not going to get rid of the next 2 years of future #1 picks.

If we did what you said right here we will be a losing team for years to come. Draft is not about "Now" but the "future"

So lets say we do this.

We have some pretty big holes at Saftey still. Ferguson and Lynch might retire. Joe fields is not going to step in and be a impact what so ever in the NFL.

Next...

We have a huge hole at nickle corner. With the subtraction of a guy that is last year of his contract (might as well subtract that trade and list not re-signing him. If you do not want foxworth)

We will still have a hole on OLB with getting rid of one outside line backer and added another one that is not going to have a huge impact on our team right away with Boss. Boss is not going to do any better then Gold. Ian does not look the greatest for several reasons including a new supporting class, DT's and DE's stopping the run. We will only get a 6th round draft pick at best for him.

Also I would like to include... I rather have gold than Lehman @ strong side and Boss... With Webster and Kehl as depth.. Specially with Kehl only racking up numbers this year against very bad teams IMO.

So we will be worse at LB.. No better at Saftey.. worse at CB... minus a couple #1 picks (which is not worth McFadden IMO)

Lets go to WR... We still have huge hole there. No added depth.

Running back. Ok, we got a high profile back coming out of the draft. I do not think I need to tell you but a RB is the least of our worries right now. Also the Broncos do not grab to many backs in the first round. Who was thew last back... Steven Sewell couple years after elway.

I would hate for the Broncos to give up the farm to not get better at overall depth and be worse on almost every single position... With the possibility of having better depth on the deffensive and offensive line.

This is not madden football and this will be a foolish thing for a organization to do.

This is one of the worse draft things I have ever seen for the Broncos.

Lets say we pick # 15.

We have the option to pick up a decent player in a not so deep draft.

Okam might drop (DT)

Dan Conner might drop (LB)

Reach a little for Kenny Phillips (S) Or Laurinaitis (LB)

Get Slaton and have depth at RB

Our what I would like for the broncos to do at that situation is trade down and get a 1st and get Ray Rice (RB) or Doucet or Kelly at wide reciever. You figure one of those guys will be available at the end of the first round. Package up a bunch of picks to Dallas and get two of them...

If we get two late round 1st rounders... you can get Harvey at LB, Deshaun Jackson (probably be a late 2nd rounder because of size)... Bowman at WR from Oklahoma (My sleeper) 6 foot 4 and around 250.

You can also get maualuga or Keith Rivers at LB or sedrick ellis at DT... from USC.

In 2nd round your have the option for a few backs to with the guy from orgeon Stewart or mike hart

In the third you have tashard choice, chris johnson, james davis or Charles from Texas in the fourth.

I think we have a lot better options then trading everything for a a guy that we would have to trade up for.

I like a lot of the wide receivers coming out and think Cutler can be complimented a great deal through this draft including staying put and getting a very solid prospect at DT,LB, or Saftey.

You need to remember there is not many solid safties that will be free agents or going to be in draft this year.

Broncos have a lot of option and basically not smart to forfeit everything for 1 RB.

I had a much more elaborate response to this but I timed out and lost it. Basically, we havent had a great running game for a while and a Broncos fan should know better than anyone the value of having a great running game. A #3 or #4 WR is not more important than a RB and neither is a nickelback that we are destined to lose anyway. I like Foxworth more than most but were wasting him here and he is destined to move on so we might as well get something for him and plug Paymah in there or bring in a decent, albeit not as good CB. Ive addressed OLB with my suggestion and I dont think Gold has value to us anymore but he might to someone as a stopgap and as a throwin in some trade. We need to fortify our front 7 first but we need a DT specialized in stopping the run. Safety is a need but I dont think it outweighs getting a gamechanging RB like McFadden, whom many consider to be a better prospect than Peterson. McFadden would also give our offense some swagger which would help since its a little finesse. McFadden has an incredible stiffarm that yields a lot of attitude plays.

In-com-plete
10-30-2007, 03:16 PM
Whatever deficiencies Mikey might have had in drafting, he often made up for
in the way he raped and ravaged other teams. Witness Washington, Cleveland,
and Detroit,for instance. :nixon:

-----

While I agree we've gotton the better of those teams when we trade, I don't think that makes up for the draft blunders.

I know we've done considerably better the past couple/few years. I know not every pick is gonna be a future pro-bowler. I understand taking long shots on guys like Marcus Thomas and Clarrett. But who's to say we couldn't have drafted Javon Walker or Ed Reed instead of Lelie. Or Anquan Boldin instead of Terry Pierce. Or Julius Jones instead of Tatum. How about...anyone instead of Paul Toviesi back in '01.

I guess what I'm saying is, I want us to rip teams off and draft like we know what we're doing.

Lonestar
10-30-2007, 03:32 PM
While I agree we've gotton the better of those teams when we trade, I don't think that makes up for the draft blunders.

I know we've done considerably better the past couple/few years. I know not every pick is gonna be a future pro-bowler. I understand taking long shots on guys like Marcus Thomas and Clarrett. But who's to say we couldn't have drafted Javon Walker or Ed Reed instead of Lelie. Or Anquan Boldin instead of Terry Pierce. Or Julius Jones instead of Tatum. How about...anyone instead of Paul Toviesi back in '01.

I guess what I'm saying is, I want us to rip teams off and draft like we know what we're doing.

Just wanted to edit my thoughts into this..

We have sucked at Drafting for ever and as you noted at least got respectable in the last 3 drafts.. But the base of the team has been hurt in the prior 10 years to that.. How many DL and OL guys play 10-17 years.. Many of those would still be playing had we drafted some back then.. but then terry pierce ashley toveissi, watts, lesuer, griffn, eason, mcneal, davis, middlebrokes, cole, freeidman watson, mcgriff, NASH.

Many of those could have been substitute fro quality DE or better yet DT types that after getting a couple we could have went after better folks on the OLINE and LB.

I just have to ask who drafts a one handed WR in the second round? Only a MORON..

lex
10-30-2007, 07:54 PM
Just wanted to edit my thoughts into this..

We have sucked at Drafting for ever and as you noted at least got respectable in the last 3 drafts.. But the base of the team has been hurt in the prior 10 years to that.. How many DL and OL guys play 10-17 years.. Many of those would still be playing had we drafted some back then.. but then terry pierce ashley toveissi, watts, lesuer, griffn, eason, mcneal, davis, middlebrokes, cole, freeidman watson, mcgriff, NASH.

Many of those could have been substitute fro quality DE or better yet DT types that after getting a couple we could have went after better folks on the OLINE and LB.

I just have to ask who drafts a one handed WR in the second round? Only a MORON..

And to be frank, when Denver was drafting in those years you addressed, you knew then and there that the picks were shaky at best...there were a lot of head scratchers in those days. Its not a case of people second guessing after it was wrong. People were questioning those picks at the time they were made. Thats how bad the drafts have been...and with that, its hard to make a case for misfortune over bad drafting.

Lonestar
10-30-2007, 11:50 PM
And to be frank, when Denver was drafting in those years you addressed, you knew then and there that the picks were shaky at best...there were a lot of head scratchers in those days. Its not a case of people second guessing after it was wrong. People were questioning those picks at the time they were made. Thats how bad the drafts have been...and with that, its hard to make a case for misfortune over bad drafting.


Yet to listen to the coach this guys is gonna be this and that. Most of the fans bought into it.

I did for many years and then I went back doing some research one day and played the year end press conference from a couple of years ago and it was like it was a script from the prior two years we are just a player or two away from being a super bowl team. Same script for three years running.

That was when his credibility ran out on me, about the same time I started calling him mikey.

He has been a great play caller till lately, again about the time Kubes left. For all those years I thought when Kubes was talking Mikey was pulling the strings from above and making his mouth move. But I think perhaps that Kubes just might be better than anyone gave him credit for.

Mikey pulled some absolutely terrible DAFTS the year they took foster was a total waste regardless of who we got in trade for those losers. After last night game I'm not so sure that DET might have gotten the better part of that deal.

lex
10-31-2007, 12:34 AM
Yet to listen to the coach this guys is gonna be this and that. Most of the fans bought into it.

I did for many years and then I went back doing some research one day and played the year end press conference from a couple of years ago and it was like it was a script from the prior two years we are just a player or two away from being a super bowl team. Same script for three years running.

That was when his credibility ran out on me, about the same time I started calling him mikey.

He has been a great play caller till lately, again about the time Kubes left. For all those years I thought when Kubes was talking Mikey was pulling the strings from above and making his mouth move. But I think perhaps that Kubes just might be better than anyone gave him credit for.

Mikey pulled some absolutely terrible DAFTS the year they took foster was a total waste regardless of who we got in trade for those losers. After last night game I'm not so sure that DET might have gotten the better part of that deal.


To be fair though there are a lot of new pieces. You can say thats of his making but its not really though. We have a lot of players who are getting old at the same time. So replacing them at the same time can present challenges Im sure. But more to the point, you will never hear an argument out of me when it comes to drafting. Until a few years ago its been horrid. Its like youre watching the draft and you see some of the picks and think, why do they go so out of their way to be clever. Its like they always had to go contra to demonstrate some hidden expertise. Eventually being clever catches up to you.

Requiem / The Dagda
10-31-2007, 01:23 AM
After last night game I'm not so sure that DET might have gotten the better part of that deal.

Give me a break. Bell has already asked to be traded from the Lions, and from all accounts Foster is playing average like always. Bly gets beat for a touchdown and all of a sudden we got the worse end of the deal? Why does everything always have to be completely empty with you?

Then again, I'm sure you won't answer.

Requiem / The Dagda
10-31-2007, 01:25 AM
I just have to ask who drafts a one handed WR in the second round? Only a MORON..

You'd think that the scouts would have had information on a childhood injury, wouldn't you think so? Putting that on Shanahan is beyond ridiculous.

speardog
10-31-2007, 04:31 AM
Here's another article critiquing our spotty drafting and FA pick-ups over Shanahan's tenure.

Article (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=3084020)

I agree with a lot of the article, but saying that "Moss and Crowder have yet to earn a starting position." shows a real lack of understanding on our defensive line. Oh well. . .

What's around Cutler is young not bad. Marshall, Scheffler, Martinez, Young, Hall, Kuper, Meyers, Pears are NOT BAD.... They are young. The good news is that all these players are goping to mature together and when they do hit their peak they are going to be very good.