PDA

View Full Version : Football Outsiders’ Aaron Schatz talks 2009 Broncos



WARHORSE
07-22-2009, 10:46 PM
Football Outsiders’ Aaron Schatz talks 2009 Broncos (http://gazettebroncos.freedomblogging.com/2009/07/21/football-outsiders-aaron-schatz-talks-2009-broncos/765/)
July 21st, 2009, 3:09 pm · Post a Comment · posted by Frank Schwab
Had a chance to ask Aaron Schatz, founder of the brilliant Football Outsiders and author of the Broncos’ chapter in their 2009 almanac, some questions about Denver this year.

Football Outsiders doesn’t expect big things for the Broncos this year. Denver fans might not like all of the gloom and doom for the team this year, but I respect that FO comes by their opinions by intense statistical analysis. That usually takes the human element and biases out of it. Here’s what Schatz had to say about the 2009 Broncos:

FS: Your almanac ran 10,000 simulations using your DVOA (defense-adjusted value over average) formula for offense, defense and special teams. The Broncos were projected for 4.9 wins with a 78 percent chance of finishing with six or fewer wins. Why do your numbers think Broncos are going to be so bad?

AS: Oh, a combination of all kinds of things. The projection system has tons of variables, from specific splits of performance in 2008 to personnel-based variables like age, injury record, and experience at various positions. On offense, you start with the quarterback change, replacing one of the top quarterbacks in the league with an average-level player. The Broncos had the same offensive line for all 16 games last year; that’s not likely to happen again. People expect Knowshon Moreno to be a big improvement on the backs they had last year, but is he really going to do better than the 4.8 yards per carry those guys averaged as a group?

So the offense looks to decline a bit, and the defense is probably going to be as bad as last year, or close to it. Based on our DVOA ratings - which take every single play, break each one down by situation, and adjust for yardage towards a first down or touchdown, with opponent adjustments as well - the 2008 Broncos were the second-worst defense in the NFL since 1994. (The worst was also last year, Detroit.) They’re going to switch schemes with a bunch of veteran backups and guys playing out of position, although they’ve got good inside linebackers. They will have the oldest starting secondary of any team in the past decade, and teams where all four defensive back starters are over 30 do not have a good history.
That’s just the big stuff. There are also a bunch of little trends that add up. Plus, overall, you have to deal with the fact that teams with new coordinators that are learning new schemes tend to take to perform a little worse, and the Broncos have the hardest projected schedule in the NFL based on our projections of their 16 opponents. Our projections are based on overall trends, looking for teams over the last decade that were similar and what happened to them. Obviously, there are reasons to believe that the Broncos won’t be affected by these things in the same way - there are plenty of teams who had new coordinators and turned things around to go to the playoffs - but overall, when you put all the trends together, this is what we come up with. The Broncos did have a winning record in seven percent of the simulations, so it isn’t like it can’t happen.

FS: In the almanac you write that the Broncos’ offseason strategy should have been clear, that the offense was fine and likely to get better, so “the team needed to throw as many resources possible at the defense, both in free agency and the draft.” Everyone knows that didn’t happen. Let’s start with the first decision of the offseason, firing Mike Shanahan and hiring an offensive mind in Josh McDaniels. Do you think they made a mistake not hiring a defensive-minded coach like Steve Spagnuolo or Raheem Morris?

AS: Not necessarily. I think the biggest mistake was not to hire McDaniels, but to hire him with the idea that he wanted to overhaul everything the team did from soup to nuts. Look at Mike Tomlin in Pittsburgh. He was supposed to be a young defensive guru of the Tampa-2. He gets the job in Pittsburgh and keeps Dick LeBeau on as defensive coordinator, because why change what the Steelers did well? They still run the zone-blitzing 3-4 with mostly Cover-3 behind it, and the difference with Tomlin is more about his new attitude and the infusion of fresh blood after Bill Cowher won the ring and lost a little bit of his drive. There’s no reason McDaniels could not have followed a similar path.

FS: Jay Cutler ranks very high in your formulas and you don’t seem to like Denver’s decision to trade him. How much of an impact will Cutler have in Chicago, and how will Kyle Orton perform as his replacement?

AS: Chicago has the best projection of any team in the NFC. Cutler helps improve their offense to average in our projections, and that combines with the fact that we expect their good defense to bounce back to being very good and their special teams to be excellent as always. It isn’t like Cutler will lead them all the way — it is more like Cutler won’t stand in the way of winning like seemingly every Bears quarterback of the last decade except Jim Miller. (I’ll be honest – subjectively, even if the Bears win the most games in the NFC, I think the Giants or Eagles are a better bet to represent the NFC in the Super Bowl.)

I think Orton’s performance will probably be pretty close to what he was doing in Chicago before he injured his ankle at midseason. He’ll probably have a higher completion percentage but fewer yards per completion, because that’s how McDaniels’ offense differs from the one the Bears run. He’s got better players around him, but faces a tougher schedule, which should even out.

FS: Onto free agency. Your analysis shows Denver will have the oldest starting secondary of any NFL team since at least 2000. You write that Brian Dawkins’ coverage skills have slipped and too many of his run tackles were after the opponent got a first down, that Renaldo Hill has “never been more than a league-average safety” and Andre Goodman might have simply had a career year in 2008. Were any of those signings beneficial? Or is this secondary headed for disaster?

AS: Look, if you had a good young safety or two, signing Brian Dawkins would be a good thing. He’s still a good player, despite having more holes in his game than he used to, and he’s a great clubhouse presence I’m sure. If you had good players everywhere else, I’m sure Renaldo Hill is fine. Andre Goodman would be a swell nickel back. But those three combined? I mean, Champ Bailey is great and he probably will be healthier this year but the man can only do so much.

FS: Which of Denver’s other free agent moves did you agree with, and which ones might be mistakes?

AS: Well, before they drafted Moreno I thought the various running backs they signed were a nice answer to the depth problems of a year ago, a good mix of low-cost veterans with complementary skills.

FS: Do you like receiver Jabar Gaffney, nose tackle Ronald Fields, and does the replacement of Mike Leach for Lonie Paxton at long snapper add any value to the team (assuming Paxton is slightly better than the reliable Leach)?

AS: Gaffney is a perfectly reasonable third or fourth receiver who has the advantage of already knowing McDaniels’ offense. A good signing. I don’t understand why I’ve seen some Broncos fan websites get so excited about Fields in the middle of the 3-4 - we’re talking about a guy who couldn’t break into the starting lineup in San Francisco. That’s not really a good sign. As to long snappers, as far as I know a long snapper is a long snapper, they’re all pretty much the same. I guess I’d rather have a guy like Zak DeOssie who can also serve other roles on the team.

FS: You have the 2008 Broncos ranked as the second-worst defense in the NFL since 1994, when Football Outsiders started keeping DVOA stats, ahead of only the winless 2008 Lions. What made Denver’s defense so historically bad, and can they be much better this year?

AS: Well, in the NFL, anything can happen. I just don’t think it is likely. It’s hard to say exactly why they were so bad. I mean, they were bad in every way. The best cornerback by far was injured half the season, and was horribly un-Champ-like when he came back late in the year. The safeties were lousy. There was very little pass rush. They were starting two linebackers who probably wouldn’t have started on any other team. They were terrible on every down, in the red zone, in late and close situations, against both the pass and the run.

FS: Peyton Hillis scored very well in your DVOA rankings as a runner and a receiver. His 41 percent DVOA on running plays was well ahead of Correll Buckhalter (11 percent) and LaMont Jordan (22.2 percent). Does this tell us that Hillis should get a longer look at tailback, or is the sample size too small to get an accurate read on him?

AS: A combination of two things. First, the sample size is too small. Second, remember that a running back’s performance is partly related to the quality of the offensive line. It is really hard to overstate how good the Denver line was when it came to run-blocking in 2008.

WARHORSE
07-22-2009, 10:46 PM
FS: Given how good the line was blocking for the run, and they set a franchise record in sacks allowed, was Denver’s line the best in the league last year? If they can stay reasonably healthy, is there a reason they can’t repeat that performance?

AS: Yes, I would say that Denver had the best offensive line in the NFL last year. Health is a huge reason to expect that they won’t repeat the performance, of course - all five guys were healthy for the whole year in 2008. Also, the fact is that they had not really established a track record before 2008. Clady, as great as he was, was a rookie, and the last couple of dominant rookie left tackles (Marcus McNeil, Joe Thomas) have had sophomore slumps. Harris was in his first year as a starter. Wiegmann had never really played that well before. And we don’t know what kind of changes McDaniels will make in the scheme. What happens if they do more of the standard-style man-blocking that New England has done, and less of the traditional Denver zone-blocking?

FS: You write that the Broncos decision to pass on defensive help for Knowshon Moreno was “dumbfounding,” then provide a great stat that the top four backs on the 2008 Broncos (Michael Pittman, Hillis, Selvin Young and Tatum Bell) compared well with the numbers put up by Tennessee’s Chris Johnson, Houston’s Steve Slaton and the 1995 rookie stats of Terrell Davis. What would Moreno have to do as a rookie to justify the 12th overall pick, and is he capable of it?

AS: If he goes on to have an excellent career, I think that justifies the pick as a long-term decision, even if it was a total misuse of Denver’s assets in the short term. But what does he need to do to justify his pick if we look ONLY at what he does in 2009? He has to have Eric Dickerson’s rookie season, or Adrian Peterson’s. Otherwise, the pick was a short-term mistake. Yes, I’m completely serious.

FS: Football Outsiders’ projections give Denver a 78 percent chance of finishing with six or fewer wins. Six wins last year would have given them a top 10 pick in this year’s draft. They have traded their 2010 first-round pick away, which you argue was against “The Patriot Way” of doing things. How much do you think will they regret trading that pick?

AS: It depends on how much Big 12 football they watch during the season. Denver fans should feel pain every time Colt McCoy or Sam Bradford throws a touchdown pass.

FS: I was surprised Brandon Marshall had a minus-6.8 percent DVOA. Why did he rank so low, and is this telling us your statistics think the 2008 AFC Pro Bowl starter is overrated?

AS: Well, maybe he’s overrated a little, but it isn’t as if he’s not an excellent receiver. He just wasn’t one of the top two in the AFC. (I would have given his spot to Reggie Wayne.) I think this is a place where you need to look at context. I think the Broncos were stuck in situations where they were forcing the ball to him constantly. You can see that in his poor performance in the red zone, where he caught just 12 of 26 balls (and fumbled one of those receptions away).

FS: Are there any other Broncos players that are overrated or underrated, based on your analysis?

AS: Well, the offensive line is underrated. Ryan Clady not going to the Pro Bowl last year was fairly ridiculous. However, it remains to be seen how the offensive line adapts to whatever scheme changes McDaniels is going to install.

WARHORSE
07-22-2009, 10:59 PM
Personally, to think that the Broncos offensive line was killer in the run game in its first year was a pump of things to come.

None of the offensive starters last year had ever played together.

Is anyone gonna say that chemistry is not a huge factor in the success of offensive lines?

Retaining Dennison and Turner is going to prove huge in making sure we run the ball with Zone Blocking success.

I believe they will help McD see.......on film........how devastating the Oline can be in the ZBS.

At the same time, this line will easily be able to give the QB the extra time that Josh likes to have for his QBs.

Wiegman was made for the ZBS, and thats the reason he was better last year than hes ever been.

The reasoning for us losing is going to prove ignorant.

For someone to say, yes the offensive line was dominant, but how can a better runner improve on a 4.8 ypc average that was there with so-so runningbacks?

Thats pretty dumb.

Dont tell me Terrell Davis wouldnt have run for more yards behind this line last year than Selvin, Pittman, Hillis etc, etc.

Moreno has the feature that makes good backs great right away.

Its not the speed. Its not the agility. Its not the mentality.

Its the VISION.

Moreno has it.

lex
07-22-2009, 11:02 PM
Personally, to think that the Broncos offensive line was killer in the run game in its first year was a pump of things to come.

None of the offensive starters last year had ever played together.

Is anyone gonna say that chemistry is not a huge factor in the success of offensive lines?

Retaining Dennison and Turner is going to prove huge in making sure we run the ball with Zone Blocking success.

I believe they will help McD see.......on film........how devastating the Oline can be in the ZBS.

At the same time, this line will easily be able to give the QB the extra time that Josh likes to have for his QBs.

Wiegman was made for the ZBS, and thats the reason he was better last year than hes ever been.

The reasoning for us losing is going to prove ignorant.

For someone to say, yes the offensive line was dominant, but how can a better runner improve on a 4.8 ypc average that was there with so-so runningbacks?

Thats pretty dumb.

Dont tell me Terrell Davis wouldnt have run for more yards behind this line last year than Selvin, Pittman, Hillis etc, etc.

Moreno has the feature that makes good backs great right away.

Its not the speed. Its not the agility. Its not the mentality.

Its the VISION.

Moreno has it.

Moreno has 4 things: vision, balance, energy, and strength.

How many carries did our RBs have relative to other teams? It seemed like we passed an awful lot last year. If you dont run as much, it gets less attention and you have a higher YPC. If you carry the ball more the APC tends to go down. If we were to have 100 more carries and still average 4.6, that wouldnt be so bad when you consider that would mean improving the TOP, which also helps the defense.

WARHORSE
07-22-2009, 11:03 PM
Also.

Nothing was said of the red zone ineptness of the Broncos last year.

I totally believe the Broncos are going to be able to score more with McDs offense than we did last year.

Would that be a determinate for winning vs losing...........? HMMMMMmmmmmmmm...

WARHORSE
07-22-2009, 11:04 PM
How many carries did our RBs have relative to other teams? It seemed like we passed an awful lot last year. If you dont run as much, it gets less attention and you have a higher YPC. If you carry the ball more the APC tends to go down. If we were to have 100 more carries and still average 4.6, that wouldnt be so bad when you consider that would mean improving the TOP, which also helps the defense.

Denver was at 4.8 ypc, second best in the league.


The top teams ran the ball over 500 times.


We ran the ball around 380 times if I remember correctly.

BIG DIFFERENCE.

lex
07-22-2009, 11:09 PM
Denver was at 4.8 ypc, second best in the league.


The top teams ran the ball over 500 times.


We ran the ball around 380 times if I remember correctly.

BIG DIFFERENCE.

Thats what I suspected. Yeah, he's making too much of the YPC. I thought we had an great offensive line but I also thought they were better at pass protecting than run blocking and the high ypc in the running game was a result of having a potent passing game. Like Ive often said, we need to be more dedicated to the running game. We really need that balance. Id be thrilled if we got 4.6 ypc on 480 carries. The flip side of having more carries is helping the defense and also having a higher yards per pass attempt.

WARHORSE
07-22-2009, 11:20 PM
Thats what I suspected. Yeah, he's making too much of the YPC. I thought we had an great offensive line but I also thought they were better at pass protecting than run blocking and the high ypc in the running game was a result of having a potent passing game. Like Ive often said, we need to be more dedicated to the running game. We really need that balance. Id be thrilled if we got 4.6 ypc on 480 carries. The flip side of having more carries is helping the defense and also having a higher yards per pass attempt.



Considering the youth and lack of playing experience together of the offensive line, I would venture to say that they will be dominating the run game this year.

That will be huge for someone named Kyle Orton.

If our run game can prove dominant, which I believe it will, look for the passing game to come pretty darn easy.................

Its not like we dont have some good WRs to catch the ball and run with it.:coffee:

Lonestar
07-22-2009, 11:22 PM
well not to rain on the parade I think overall the analysis is pretty spot on..

Wwith all the changes made this year, new coaches (in some cases learning the schemes as well as the players) up wards of 35 new faces on this squad, the brutal schedule "the Broncos have the hardest projected schedule in the NFL based on our projections of their 16 opponents."

5-6 wins could be a blessing..

All I am looking for this rebuilding year (considering just how bad the D was last year) is respectability, consistent play and NO ONE mailing it in..

even if we only win 3 games and there are no blowouts I can live with that as long as they get better game after game..

Superchop 7
07-22-2009, 11:22 PM
WOW

That was beyond outstanding.

Spot on.

lex
07-22-2009, 11:34 PM
Considering the youth and lack of playing experience together of the offensive line, I would venture to say that they will be dominating the run game this year.

That will be huge for someone named Kyle Orton.

If our run game can prove dominant, which I believe it will, look for the passing game to come pretty darn easy.................

Its not like we dont have some good WRs to catch the ball and run with it.:coffee:

I actually think Moreno will have 1200 yards this year.

But one of the things I dont like about McDaniels offense is all the SG plays. When you run out of the SG, the RB is more limited. Its better when you run out of a base formation such as an I or Ace because the RB can better react to what he sees while going forward.

I really hope that if we're going to be more balanced that this goes for the formations as well. I think for the SG to be effective anyway, the defense has to respect the QB. Orton can be effective (especially with a good running game) but he doesnt really have the arm strength that scares teams the way a lot of QBs do. Im not saying Orton needs arm strength to be an effective passer but it helps in terms of keeping the defense honest.

broncofanatic1987
07-23-2009, 02:54 AM
:listen:Basically, FO gets to have their cake and eat it too. They get to say that the Broncos will suck but when the Broncos go 15-1, they then get to say, "well we did say that there was a seven percent chance that the Broncos would have a winning record".

So their predictions are just as silly as anyone else's.

They don't know any more than anyone else about how well or how poor the Broncos will do this season.

:coffee::coffee::coffee::coffee:

NameUsedBefore
07-23-2009, 06:20 AM
2nd worst defense since 1994 and we finished 8-8.


Good thing we kept all the working cogs in place and fixed those that were broken amirite or amirite.

LRtagger
07-23-2009, 08:28 AM
Well I just played 10 games last week on Madden and Denver won all of them, so there.

broncofaninfla
07-23-2009, 08:41 AM
I thought the comparison to Tomlin was spot on. Despite coming from a different defensive phylisophy in Tampa (cover 2) Tomlin didn't change a thing with Labeau's defense. The same can't be said of McD and our offense.

WARHORSE
07-23-2009, 09:10 AM
I thought the comparison to Tomlin was spot on. Despite coming from a different defensive phylisophy in Tampa (cover 2) Tomlin didn't change a thing with Labeau's defense. The same can't be said of McD and our offense.



Hell with Tomlin and the piss yellow steelturds.


We got our own ship to sail.


Pull the anchor, curse the bay and straight into the storm mates.



Screw em all...........shock the world.:salute:

Shazam!
07-23-2009, 09:36 AM
What did Tomlin have to change? The pieces were all in place in Pittsburgh already. This comparison is not even in the same stratosphere. Pittsburgh cannot be compared to the Broncos in any facet in recent years.

Dean
07-23-2009, 09:38 AM
This is an enlightened well written and researched article. Translation- It agrees with what I believe.;)

Ravage!!!
07-23-2009, 10:14 AM
The comparison to Tomlin simply had to do that a defensive 'minded' coach went to a team and didn't simply "rebuild" everything. He kept what was working. Can't say the same thing in Denver when an offensive minded coach came to a team where the offense was looking DAMN good for being so young, inexperienced, and having very little time together. Thats where the Tomlin comparison comes in and makes sense.

But Jr is right. The mere fact that we are having all the coaching changes alone would cause concern for success this season. Throw in the change to a 3-4 defense without the proper talent, the number of new players, and the schedule that we have... and 6 wins (to me) is expecting a lot.

I think the guy in the interview was pretty much spot on. Great find!

lex
07-23-2009, 10:24 AM
What did Tomlin have to change? The pieces were all in place in Pittsburgh already. This comparison is not even in the same stratosphere. Pittsburgh cannot be compared to the Broncos in any facet in recent years.

They had the 2nd best offense.

broncofanatic1987
07-23-2009, 10:49 AM
I thought the comparison to Tomlin was spot on. Despite coming from a different defensive phylisophy in Tampa (cover 2) Tomlin didn't change a thing with Labeau's defense. The same can't be said of McD and our offense.

The difference between Tomlin and McDaniels is that Tomlin had the option of keeping Labeau to run the defense while McDaniels didn't have the option of keeping Shanahan to run the offense.

Regardless of what the naysayers say, the offense was not perfect and it needed improvement. Did that improvement have to include trading Jay Cutler?...probably not. That wasn't McDaniels' call though. It was Pat Bowlen that made that decision. That improvement does have to include better efficiency and I'm sure that's what McDaniels is aiming for.

lex
07-23-2009, 10:51 AM
The difference between Tomlin and McDaniels is that Tomlin had the option of keeping Labeau to run the defense while McDaniels didn't have the option of keeping Shanahan to run the offense.

Regardless of what the naysayers say, the offense was not perfect and it needed improvement. Did that improvement have to include trading Jay Cutler?...probably not. That wasn't McDaniels' call though. It was Pat Bowlen that made that decision. That improvement does have to include better efficiency and I'm sure that's what McDaniels is aiming for.

Awesome. So we can expect the offense to be perfect this year. Good to know.

Northman
07-23-2009, 10:52 AM
Awesome. So we can expect the offense to be perfect this year. Good to know.

Come on Lex, you know what he was talking about. We were 16th in scoring despite the yardage gained. His point is we need to be better in the red zone.

lex
07-23-2009, 10:57 AM
Come on Lex, you know what he was talking about. We were 16th in scoring despite the yardage gained. His point is we need to be better in the red zone.

What was our red zone scoring like when Pittman and Hillis were playing?

Its nice to know we can expect perfection now.

Northman
07-23-2009, 10:59 AM
What was our red zone scoring like when Pittman and Hillis were playing?

Its nice to know we can expect perfection now.

I dont know if its about perfection as maybe more consistency. Time will tell i guess.

lex
07-23-2009, 11:01 AM
I dont know if its about perfection as maybe more consistency. Time will tell i guess.

Well, McDaniels was brought in to deliver perfection. So thats what Im expecting.

Northman
07-23-2009, 11:03 AM
Well, McDaniels was brought in to deliver perfection. So thats what Im expecting.


Who said he was going to deliver perfection?

lex
07-23-2009, 11:05 AM
Who said he was going to deliver perfection?


The offense wasnt perfect and McDaniels was brought in to fix that.

Northman
07-23-2009, 11:08 AM
The offense wasnt perfect and McDaniels was brought in to fix that.


Ok, i can see where your coming from. But i dont think its perfection i see it as more balance which is what they need. Especially in the running game.

lex
07-23-2009, 11:12 AM
Ok, i can see where your coming from. But i dont think its perfection i see it as more balance which is what they need. Especially in the running game.

I agree that the offense needed more balance. But at the same time, Id rather have Shanahans version of the running game with the talent we currently have instead of watching half of our running plays come out of the SG because be throw the WR screen 30 times a game out of that formation.

But now I have learnedn that I have perfection to look forward to.

broncofaninfla
07-23-2009, 11:12 AM
The difference between Tomlin and McDaniels is that Tomlin had the option of keeping Labeau to run the defense while McDaniels didn't have the option of keeping Shanahan to run the offense.

Regardless of what the naysayers say, the offense was not perfect and it needed improvement. Did that improvement have to include trading Jay Cutler?...probably not. That wasn't McDaniels' call though. It was Pat Bowlen that made that decision. That improvement does have to include better efficiency and I'm sure that's what McDaniels is aiming for.

It needed an improvment, true but an overhaul and complete scheme change? Don't get me wrong, I'm optimistic things will eventually work out BUT I do feel we would have better off with less changes on offense. just my opinion....

lex
07-23-2009, 11:16 AM
It needed an improvment, true but an overhaul and complete scheme change? Don't get me wrong, I'm optimistic things will eventually work out BUT I do feel we would have better off with less changes on offense. just my opinion....

I agree. I dont even think we needed to keep Bates either. We still had Dennison and Turner.

Lonestar
07-23-2009, 11:26 AM
They had the 2nd best offense.
Same tired response.

And here is a logical rebuttal.

Yep between the 20's.

And IIRC 19th where it counts scoring.

Sent via Blackberry.

lex
07-23-2009, 11:27 AM
Same tired response.

And here is a logical rebuttal.

Yep between the 20's.

And IIRC 19th where it counts scoring.

Sent via Blackberry.

Youre another guy who should take his own advice. Oh, the irony.

xzn
07-23-2009, 11:35 AM
The next guy in this thread who says, "SPOT ON", is going to be fined by The Department of Redundancy Department....

Shazam!
07-23-2009, 11:38 AM
The next guy in this thread who says, "SPOT ON", is going to be fined by The Department of Redundancy Department....

What is sickening is that people act like this team was a Super Bowl contender and the 1992 Cowboys were dismantled. Denver was barely a .500 squad with a dizzying array of glaring problems.

lex
07-23-2009, 11:48 AM
What is sickening is that people act like this team was a Super Bowl contender and the 1992 Cowboys were dismantled. Denver was barely a .500 squad with a dizzying array of glaring problems.

Your embellishment for dramatic effect is cute.

broncofanatic1987
07-23-2009, 11:52 AM
It needed an improvment, true but an overhaul and complete scheme change? Don't get me wrong, I'm optimistic things will eventually work out BUT I do feel we would have better off with less changes on offense. just my opinion....

The Broncos were already trying to imitate the Patsies' offense. The problem is they didn't imitate the most important part of that offense.

Who better to complete the imitation than the guy that ran the offense that the Broncos were trying to imitate?

broncofaninfla
07-23-2009, 11:56 AM
The Broncos were already trying to imitate the Patsies' offense. The problem is they didn't imitate the most important part of that offense.

Who better to complete the imitation than the guy that ran the offense that the Broncos were trying to imitate?

How so?

broncofanatic1987
07-23-2009, 12:03 PM
How so?

Jeremy Bates made it clear before last season that he had studied the Patsies' offense and incorporated much of it into what the Broncos were going to do on offense.

Lonestar
07-23-2009, 01:07 PM
The next guy in this thread who says, "SPOT ON", is going to be fined by The Department of Redundancy Department....



your spot on....:salute:

WARHORSE
07-23-2009, 03:41 PM
Jeremy Bates made it clear before last season that he had studied the Patsies' offense and incorporated much of it into what the Broncos were going to do on offense.


Um maybe. But it was formations, and playcalling only.

Unlike the Patriots, we could not disguise our plays nearly as well because we do not make all the WRs and subpositions learn every spot.

That makes a big difference.

They also run routes no one else runs.

underrated29
07-23-2009, 03:45 PM
I agree. I dont even think we needed to keep Bates either. We still had Dennison and Turner.


Yes, i was very very critical of bates all last year, and i think he is extremely overrated as a playcaller. Maybe not as a Qb coach, as obviously i would have no idea since i wasnt there everyday.

but what i can see is his style of play and calls. Those IMO were very suspect. I am not knocking the guy and saying he sucks, but he is not what a lot crack him up to be. IMO

T.K.O.
07-23-2009, 04:15 PM
would it be ok to say this thread has a spot on it ?

oh and by the way the broncos are going to be an unstoppable scoring machine this year,breaking many bronco records including points and rushing td's
but with our brutal schedule i still think 10-6
yes.......go go gadget orange glasses !

Simple Jaded
07-23-2009, 07:47 PM
I don't think the Broncos were 19th (16th, actually, but whatever, right? Why let specifics get in the way of a perfectly useless argument?) in "Offensive Scoring", they were 11th in "Offensive Scoring" from what I'm told, they started the first half of the season 1st to Top5, IIRC, so clearly the 11th finish was a function of their brat of a QB and a complete overhaul was in order.......if for no other reason than Josh McDaniels "Putting his stamp on this team".......

dogfish
07-23-2009, 08:06 PM
Ok, i can see where your coming from. But i dont think its perfection i see it as more balance which is what they need. Especially in the running game.


enh. . . if a more run-heavy offense was all they wanted, why fire shanahan? he ran plenty when he wasn't down to street free agents at tailback. . .

of course, i think we all know he was fired because of the defense. . . which is why i'm baffled to this day that we didn't go after a defensive coach. . . spagnuolo hasn't made any secret that he wants a grinding running game-- we could have brought in a defensive whiz, kept cutler, and still had a more balanced offense than '08. . .

ah well, **** it-- spilled milk. . .

speaking of which. . .



FS: Football Outsiders’ projections give Denver a 78 percent chance of finishing with six or fewer wins. Six wins last year would have given them a top 10 pick in this year’s draft. They have traded their 2010 first-round pick away, which you argue was against “The Patriot Way” of doing things. How much do you think will they regret trading that pick?

AS: It depends on how much Big 12 football they watch during the season. Denver fans should feel pain every time Colt McCoy or Sam Bradford throws a touchdown pass.

lol. . .


:frusty: :frusty: :frusty:

slim
07-23-2009, 08:16 PM
enh. . . if a more run-heavy offense was all they wanted, why fire shanahan? he ran plenty when he wasn't down to street free agents at tailback. . .

of course, i think we all know he was fired because of the defense. . . which is why i'm baffled to this day that we didn't go after a defensive coach. . . spagnuolo hasn't made any secret that he wants a grinding running game-- we could have brought in a defensive whiz, kept cutler, and still had a more balanced offense than '08. . .

ah well, **** it-- spilled milk. . .

speaking of which. . .




lol. . .


:frusty: :frusty: :frusty:

Yeah, and if I wasn't fat I would be thin.

lex
07-23-2009, 08:53 PM
Yeah, and if I wasn't fat I would be thin.

Spot on.

horsepig
07-23-2009, 09:00 PM
Hell with Tomlin and the piss yellow steelturds.


We got our own ship to sail.


Pull the anchor, curse the bay and straight into the storm mates.



Screw em all...........shock the world.:salute:

Damn the torpedos matey's, full speed ahead and get the whiners below decks, aargghh!

horsepig
07-23-2009, 09:08 PM
The next guy in this thread who says, "SPOT ON", is going to be fined by The Department of Redundancy Department....

what if I want to create my own Department of Redundacy Department Department?

dogfish
07-23-2009, 09:29 PM
Yeah, and if I wasn't fat I would be thin.

you'd still be a fat man at heart. . . . :coffee: