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Lonestar
07-20-2009, 07:37 PM
Rooting for the Raiders. "You are completely off base about Josh McDaniels, who ran off the future of the Broncos . Denver will be without a quarterback for years, maybe decades, because of the move. I don't blame wide receiver Brandon Marshall for his actions. The Broncos are looking at 4-12 this year. Personally, I hope 2-14. As a lifelong Broncos fan and season-ticket holder since 1985, I won't be supporting Denver this year. I will not go to any games. I will not give away or sell my tickets. My seats will be empty until McDaniels is fired. Bandwagon fan? Not at all. Tough love. I'm even doing the unheard of this year: I will proudly ROOT for the Raiders against Denver."

Fred, Laramie

Kiz: Not to suggest some Broncomaniacs have become a little hysterical in their criticism of Kid McD, but this is some of the funniest stuff I've seen since "Saturday Night Live" was at the top of its game. Hey, Fred: Are you really going to let your seats go empty instead of selling tickets for home dates against New England and Dallas for a little extra spending money? Yeah, right.


Deep thinker. "You are 100 percent correct that McDaniels has restored the team-first concept in Denver, and strengthened the defense by adding a real coaching staff and new players. I love the guy who wrote he won't ROOT for the Broncos , won't use his season tickets and will ROOT for the Raiders until McDaniels gets fired. With that deep intelligence, I wonder what he does for a living? I sure hope I don't ever need his help."

Dennis, Spotswood, N.J.

Kiz: I've heard of going over to the dark side. But I would like to see a man who has forsaken the Broncos for the Raiders to stand up in the middle of a game at Mile High, announce his intentions and then, you know, see what happens.



http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9831158/Watson's-performance-already-a-major-feat-Kickin'-it-with-Kiz

rcsodak
07-20-2009, 09:00 PM
Rooting for the Raiders. "You are completely off base about Josh McDaniels, who ran off the future of the Broncos . Denver will be without a quarterback for years, maybe decades, because of the move. I don't blame wide receiver Brandon Marshall for his actions. The Broncos are looking at 4-12 this year. Personally, I hope 2-14. As a lifelong Broncos fan and season-ticket holder since 1985, I won't be supporting Denver this year. I will not go to any games. I will not give away or sell my tickets. My seats will be empty until McDaniels is fired. Bandwagon fan? Not at all. Tough love. I'm even doing the unheard of this year: I will proudly ROOT for the Raiders against Denver."

Fred, Laramie

Kiz: Not to suggest some Broncomaniacs have become a little hysterical in their criticism of Kid McD, but this is some of the funniest stuff I've seen since "Saturday Night Live" was at the top of its game. Hey, Fred: Are you really going to let your seats go empty instead of selling tickets for home dates against New England and Dallas for a little extra spending money? Yeah, right.


Deep thinker. "You are 100 percent correct that McDaniels has restored the team-first concept in Denver, and strengthened the defense by adding a real coaching staff and new players. I love the guy who wrote he won't ROOT for the Broncos , won't use his season tickets and will ROOT for the Raiders until McDaniels gets fired. With that deep intelligence, I wonder what he does for a living? I sure hope I don't ever need his help."

Dennis, Spotswood, N.J.

Kiz: I've heard of going over to the dark side. But I would like to see a man who has forsaken the Broncos for the Raiders to stand up in the middle of a game at Mile High, announce his intentions and then, you know, see what happens.



http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9831158/Watson's-performance-already-a-major-feat-Kickin'-it-with-Kiz

Fred's a dumbass!
Does he really think that by not going, that NOBODY will slip into his seat?

Unless it's in the worst possible spot one can buy! lol

I have a feeling Fred isn't really a Denver fan....nor from Laramie. Just a pot-stirring Faiduh/Bolt/Chef fan.

lex
07-20-2009, 11:08 PM
Fred's a dumbass!
Does he really think that by not going, that NOBODY will slip into his seat?

Unless it's in the worst possible spot one can buy! lol

I have a feeling Fred isn't really a Denver fan....nor from Laramie. Just a pot-stirring Faiduh/Bolt/Chef fan.

Its probably more likely that he's capable of independent thought. What youre not comprehending is that, whether someone sits in his seats or someone else's, there will be at least that many empty seats in the stadium. And in case you werent aware, the demand for tickets isnt what it has been in the past.

GEM
07-20-2009, 11:17 PM
Later days Fred. If Doogie proves successful don't jump back on. ;) Give the guy a chance to show it on the field. Once we've gone 4-12 or whatever, by all means paint your face black and silver and throw on some spiked shoulder pads. If you can't at least give it a chance on the field then you have forfeited all right to jump on if we go 12-4.

lex
07-20-2009, 11:18 PM
Later days Fred. If Doogie proves successful don't jump back on. ;)

He said it was tough love. They have to win him back. Theres nothing wrong with that. The guy has been a season ticket holder for 24 years. He has that right. Theres nothing wrong with not giving Josh something he hasnt earned.

GEM
07-20-2009, 11:21 PM
He said it was tough love. They have to win him back. Theres nothing wrong with that. The guy has been a season ticket holder for 24 years. He has that right. Theres nothing wrong with not giving Josh something he hasnt earned.

The Broncos don't have to do ish. Plain and simple.

Why would you step away from your team because they made some changes that you haven't even seen the result of. My goodness... if you are that willing to walk away that easily, were you really that big of a fan in the first place?

lex
07-20-2009, 11:28 PM
The Broncos don't have to do ish. Plain and simple.

Why would you step away from your team because they made some changes that you haven't even seen the result of. My goodness... if you are that willing to walk away that easily, were you really that big of a fan in the first place?


Youre right. They dont have to do anything but in a lot of businesses its kind of important to keep your most loyal customers. 24 years is a long time. It takes something kind of drastic to cause this. Its kind of far fetched to suggest that he is coughing up the coin for season tickets for 24 years because he's not much of a fan. He's doing this because he cares about the team and is pissed.

GEM
07-20-2009, 11:34 PM
Youre right. They dont have to do anything but in a lot of businesses its kind of important to keep your most loyal customers. 24 years is a long time. It takes something kind of drastic to cause this. Its kind of far fetched to suggest that he is coughing up the coin for season tickets for 24 years because he's not much of a fan. He's doing this because he cares about the team and is pissed.

But the point is he doesn't have a clue how this will turn out. He paid for the last 3 years of mediocrity. He paid to see that joke of a D on the field. I'm just saying give it at least one game before taking such a drastic step. If we open up getting blown out 41-7 then I could see it, but it's just too early for anyone say what exactly is going to be on the field.

If he's been a season ticket holder for 24 years, he went through the tough years where we were getting blown out in the Super Bowl time after time. That to me was more gut wrenching than an offseason of being unsure. The last 3 years for me was gut wrenching. Watching a great offense while they completely ignored the defense and special teams. I guess I'm just more glass half full.

lex
07-20-2009, 11:43 PM
But the point is he doesn't have a clue how this will turn out. He paid for the last 3 years of mediocrity. He paid to see that joke of a D on the field. I'm just saying give it at least one game before taking such a drastic step. If we open up getting blown out 41-7 then I could see it, but it's just too early for anyone say what exactly is going to be on the field.

If he's been a season ticket holder for 24 years, he went through the tough years where we were getting blown out in the Super Bowl time after time. That to me was more gut wrenching than an offseason of being unsure. The last 3 years for me was gut wrenching. Watching a great offense while they completely ignored the defense and special teams. I guess I'm just more glass half full.

It goes beyond that. Its also about Pat foresaking Denvers past and selling everyone out who valued the past by bringing in someone from the Bradichicks, who we we were 5-1 against. To some, this hire is an act of betrayal by Bowlen. Also, to some its about the players and less about the coach. That doesnt work for many when McDaniels is trying to suppress individuals and elevate himself without having won a game. People say "its about the team". But you could just as easily say that its not about the team as much as its about McDaniels. A lot of people would rather watch the Broncos than the McDaniels Show or the Bowlens.

To people who are any or all of the above, there is also a principle.

GEM
07-20-2009, 11:52 PM
It goes beyond that. Its also about Pat foresaking Denvers past and selling everyone out who valued the past by bringing in someone from the Bradichicks, who we we were 5-1 against. To some, this hire is an act of betrayal by Bowlen. Also, to some its about the players and less about the coach. That doesnt work for many when McDaniels is trying to suppress individuals and elevate himself without having won a game. People say "its about the team". But you could just as easily say that its not about the team as much as its about McDaniels. A lot of people would rather watch the Broncos than the McDaniels Show or the Bowlens.

To people who are any or all of the above, there is also a principle.

I guess it just depends on where you sit on how you look at the situation. I can see being upset by some of the things that have happened. I also see that our beloved Broncos have deteriorated and it was time for a change. I don't care about what happens in the offseason, I care about the product on the field. I haven't seen that, so until that happens I'll hold out.

I can see both sides points completely.

Superchop 7
07-20-2009, 11:54 PM
Of course it was an act of betrayal.

I know of a number of season ticket holders selling their tickets this year.

I'm not going to a single game this year.

Any business that is losing consumer confidence is in trouble.

And thats where the Broncos are at.

GEM
07-20-2009, 11:56 PM
Of course it was an act of betrayal.

I know of a number of season ticket holders selling their tickets this year.

I'm not going to a single game this year.

Any business that is losing consumer confidence is in trouble

I'll take them, as long as I get the long term rights. :D

lex
07-21-2009, 12:04 AM
I guess it just depends on where you sit on how you look at the situation. I can see being upset by some of the things that have happened. I also see that our beloved Broncos have deteriorated and it was time for a change. I don't care about what happens in the offseason, I care about the product on the field. I haven't seen that, so until that happens I'll hold out.

I can see both sides points completely.


They only thing rotting was the defensive coordinator. The assertion to keep Slowik alone made the firing justifiable. But its also not really truthful to say that things were deteriorating when you look at the Goodmans past 3 drafts (most notably 06 and 08; Mayock thinks the 06 draft class was epic and the 08 wasnt far behind).

Shanahan was winning when the roster was getting old and he was missing on a lot of draft picks under the Sundquist era. Weve essentially been turning over our roster on the fly and still ended up around .500 with more roster turnover and/or young players--young and talented players. No team has drafted better over the past 3 years and thats not just me saying that.

I agree that Shanahan was guilty of putting yes men in place but its also a little ignorant to think he cant win with more talented players since he had been winning with less talented players most of this decade.

But ultimately, it wasnt a choice between Shanahan and McDaniels. It was two distinctly seperate choices with the first being whether to fire Shanahan and the second being who to then replace him with. Its important to point this out because you will often see the Josh Heads find flaw with Shanahan when someone criticizes McDaniels. Criticizing McDaniels doesnt automatically mean you were for not firing Shanahan, yet many see it that way when they get caught up in the silly rhetoric. But Ill defend Shanahan where its justified to do so. Theres a lot of distortion when it comes to Shanahan.

GEM
07-21-2009, 12:10 AM
I can't bash Shanny too badly. I love the guy. I just wish he would have let go of some of the reigns in certain places and tightened up other places that needed it. I wish it weren't so black and white for him. Taking the keep Slowik or else stance really led to his downfall. I just don't get why he was so flippin stuck to Slowik. He had to see how horrible the scheme as well as the talent we kept and kept trying to go after was. Ahh well...shoulda, coulda and woulda. Now it's behind us and while we may not like what we see so far....we all just might be surprised.

lex
07-21-2009, 12:11 AM
Of course it was an act of betrayal.

I know of a number of season ticket holders selling their tickets this year.

I'm not going to a single game this year.

Any business that is losing consumer confidence is in trouble.

And thats where the Broncos are at.


This post season Bowlen has been making a lot of promises that he hasnt delivered on, including to Cutler. But whenever he has failed on a promise, he has expected the other guy to be the better man and just look past it. But when Cutler didnt, he traded him. Im sure Bowlen would like to trade one of the best fanbases in the history of the league. Thats because Bowlen cant see past himself. He doenst care about the fans. He thinks the fans exist so that they can give him money. Its almost like he hates the fans and now a lot are hating him back.

lex
07-21-2009, 12:18 AM
I can't bash Shanny too badly. I love the guy. I just wish he would have let go of some of the reigns in certain places and tightened up other places that needed it. I wish it weren't so black and white for him. Taking the keep Slowik or else stance really led to his downfall. I just don't get why he was so flippin stuck to Slowik. He had to see how horrible the scheme as well as the talent we kept and kept trying to go after was. Ahh well...shoulda, coulda and woulda. Now it's behind us and while we may not like what we see so far....we all just might be surprised.

I hate McDaniels offense in comparison to what Shanahan is capable of putting together. But at least McDaniels is willing to put some talent in the backfield instead of trying to get by with mid/late round scrubs. But Shanahan had twice the acumen McDaniels did. Thats why the 98 Broncos averaged more pts per game in the playoffs (against the top defenses) than they did the regular season and the 07 Pats went from scoring 34 pts a game to 22 pts a game in the playoffs. Theres also a reason that Belichick has typically struggled against Shanahan.

But having said that, there are improvements that you can see, namely bringing in better coaches (besides the head coach). Also, Shanahan himself lost his way where the running game is concerned. We were too pass happy last year. I actually like NEs offense more last year than I did the 07 offense. They acknowledged the importance of the running game. To rely on the pass like they did in 07 is pure hubris.

GEM
07-21-2009, 12:33 AM
I had absolutely no issue with the offense under Shanny. I couldn't stand that he wouldn't solidify a defense. I love defense. Moreso than I do offense. I like hard hitting, knocking a rb on his ass 5 yards behind the LOS. So the last 3 years was especially difficult for me. I have major issues with a MLB whiffing an arm tackle. I can't stand a LB tackling a guy after a 15 yard gain and celebrating it. I'm interested to see how we do with the transformation to the 3-4. Getting to see Knowshon develop, Hillis continue. There are quite a bit of things I am looking forward to. To me, it's a strange time in being a Broncos fan, though I don't see all as being lost like some.

SR
07-21-2009, 12:34 AM
Youre right. They dont have to do anything but in a lot of businesses its kind of important to keep your most loyal customers. 24 years is a long time. It takes something kind of drastic to cause this. Its kind of far fetched to suggest that he is coughing up the coin for season tickets for 24 years because he's not much of a fan. He's doing this because he cares about the team and is pissed.

The dude already paid for his season tickets. He's an idiot. The Broncos already got his money, so if he doesn't show to the home games, his seat is already paid for and it still counts. Your logic is as backward as his.

I am a Broncos FAN. I'll support this organization through thick and thin, period. My blood literally runs through this franchise.

lex
07-21-2009, 02:03 AM
The dude already paid for his season tickets. He's an idiot. The Broncos already got his money, so if he doesn't show to the home games, his seat is already paid for and it still counts. Your logic is as backward as his.

I am a Broncos FAN. I'll support this organization through thick and thin, period. My blood literally runs through this franchise.

I think he's anticipating or hoping that McDaniels will be gone season. The guy has been a season ticket holder for 24 years. Im sure he thinks bigger picture than one season (ie the upcoming one) and I doubt he wants to go to the back of the line for the season ticket.

Actually, its questionable whether youre a better fan than Fred at all. Again, he is pissed at the organization because he is cares enough and isnt built in a way that allows him to share the optimism of some.

Lonestar
07-21-2009, 02:16 AM
Fred is a Moron and frankly if he is stupid enough to give up his season tickets or think that Josh will be fired after one season then I hope they do not allow him on the streets with a drivers license..

As SR said if he has paid fro them this year it does not cost the FO a dime.. if they are empty for 8 games unless they count the extra revenue of beer and hot dogs profit..

Unless I'm mistaken there is still a long waiting list for season tickets.. I suspect someone else will be very happy to get them finally..

When I moved out of state and gave mine up there were 17000+ folks waiting for them.. maybe Fred got mine I wonder if he would give them back?

lex
07-21-2009, 02:26 AM
Fred is a Moron and frankly if he is stupid enough to give up his season tickets or think that Josh will be fired after one season then I hope they do not allow him on the streets with a drivers license..

As SR said if he has paid fro them this year it does not cost the FO a dime.. if they are empty for 8 games unless they count the extra revenue of beer and hot dogs profit..

Unless I'm mistaken there is still a long waiting list for season tickets.. I suspect someone else will be very happy to get them finally..

When I moved out of state and gave mine up there were 17000+ folks waiting for them.. maybe Fred got mine I wonder if he would give them back?

He's not giving up his season tickets.

SR
07-21-2009, 03:20 AM
I think he's anticipating or hoping that McDaniels will be gone season. The guy has been a season ticket holder for 24 years. Im sure he thinks bigger picture than one season (ie the upcoming one) and I doubt he wants to go to the back of the line for the season ticket.

Actually, its questionable whether youre a better fan than Fred at all. Again, he is pissed at the organization because he is cares enough and isnt built in a way that allows him to share the optimism of some.

Tough shit for Fred.

SR
07-21-2009, 03:21 AM
Fred is a Moron and frankly if he is stupid enough to give up his season tickets or think that Josh will be fired after one season then I hope they do not allow him on the streets with a drivers license..

As SR said if he has paid fro them this year it does not cost the FO a dime.. if they are empty for 8 games unless they count the extra revenue of beer and hot dogs profit..

Unless I'm mistaken there is still a long waiting list for season tickets.. I suspect someone else will be very happy to get them finally..

When I moved out of state and gave mine up there were 17000+ folks waiting for them.. maybe Fred got mine I wonder if he would give them back?

Last I heard the waiting list for season tickets was like 9 years or something crazy like that. I remember when I was a kid the waiting list was something like 16 years.

Nomad
07-21-2009, 06:15 AM
I hope Fred's mother never pisses him off, I guess he'll disown her too!:tsk: Like many have said here, I'll gladly take his seats!!

CoachChaz
07-21-2009, 07:08 AM
So based on Fred's assessment...he was okay going to games when Wade Phillips was coaching, but when one of the brightest young coaching prospects in the game pisses off a hot head QB...he bolts. F him and F anyone that assumes this team is going to suck. Denver is one of the few teams in the NFL that hasnt seen any lean years in the last 20 or so and as a result they've been mired in mediocrity. A change had to be made to shake things up and that's exactly what happened. The organization NEEDED this. The unfortunate result is that like any other group of people, many fans are going to fear the change and react according to their fears. It happens.

LRtagger
07-21-2009, 08:40 AM
Funny, The Raiders make moves every season that probably make their fans pissed off...but I bet you don't see any of their fans crying and saying they are going to root for Denver.

Plain and simple, Denver fans are SPOILED.

I wonder if Fred had fun watching us get blown out at home to division rivals last year?

Whether Fred likes it or not, this team seriously needed to make some changes. That is not to say that every fan should agree with every change, but let's be realistic here. We have been a .500 team for the past 10 years. Someone needed to come in and kick the franchise in the ass. I think I'll give the new coach at least a season or two before I lose faith in the direction the organization is going.

Sorry we pissed off your favorite player, Fred...but I'm sure no one will miss you at the games...afterall, you were probably one of the tools that left the games early when we were getting blown out.

rcsodak
07-21-2009, 08:54 AM
Its probably more likely that he's capable of independent thought. What youre not comprehending is that, whether someone sits in his seats or someone else's, there will be at least that many empty seats in the stadium. And in case you werent aware, the demand for tickets isnt what it has been in the past.

And in case you werent away, Denver has a waiting list that reaches to the moon and back.

So your point is............ :confused:

lex
07-21-2009, 08:57 AM
Tough shit for Fred.

If there are enough freds out there, its tough for pat ellis too.

lex
07-21-2009, 08:58 AM
And in case you werent away, Denver has a waiting list that reaches to the moon and back.

So your point is............ :confused:

Ive already responded to this point earlier in the thread.

rcsodak
07-21-2009, 09:00 AM
The dude already paid for his season tickets. He's an idiot. The Broncos already got his money, so if he doesn't show to the home games, his seat is already paid for and it still counts. Your logic is as backward as his.

I am a Broncos FAN. I'll support this organization through thick and thin, period. My blood literally runs through this franchise.

Thank you, ingRed.....


...at least 1 person saw my point. :beer:

rcsodak
07-21-2009, 09:02 AM
He's not giving up his season tickets.

Fred=lex :listen:











:lol:

lex
07-21-2009, 09:06 AM
Funny, The Raiders make moves every season that probably make their fans pissed off...but I bet you don't see any of their fans crying and saying they are going to root for Denver.

Plain and simple, Denver fans are SPOILED.

I wonder if Fred had fun watching us get blown out at home to division rivals last year?

Whether Fred likes it or not, this team seriously needed to make some changes. That is not to say that every fan should agree with every change, but let's be realistic here. We have been a .500 team for the past 10 years. Someone needed to come in and kick the franchise in the ass. I think I'll give the new coach at least a season or two before I lose faith in the direction the organization is going.

Sorry we pissed off your favorite player, Fred...but I'm sure no one will miss you at the games...afterall, you were probably one of the tools that left the games early when we were getting blown out.

This is an example of exactly what Ive been talking about when it comes to people turning it into a Shanahan or McDaniels choice. Thats a false choice. None of us really know whether he was in favor of keeping Shanahan. Disliking McDaniels doesnt mean he wanted to keep Shanahan.

Maybe, initially, he was in favor of firing Shanahan but then when he saw Josh's handiwork, Shanahan started to look better again.

All the Josh Heads need to stop referring back to Shanahan whenever there is criticism of McDaniels.

lex
07-21-2009, 09:06 AM
Fred=lex :listen:











:lol:

I dont have season tickets.

CoachChaz
07-21-2009, 09:16 AM
I dont have season tickets.

Not for the Broncos, but surely for the Rams

lex
07-21-2009, 09:29 AM
So based on Fred's assessment...he was okay going to games when Wade Phillips was coaching, but when one of the brightest young coaching prospects in the game pisses off a hot head QB...he bolts. F him and F anyone that assumes this team is going to suck. Denver is one of the few teams in the NFL that hasnt seen any lean years in the last 20 or so and as a result they've been mired in mediocrity. A change had to be made to shake things up and that's exactly what happened. The organization NEEDED this. The unfortunate result is that like any other group of people, many fans are going to fear the change and react according to their fears. It happens.


Its quite possible, if not likely, that youre looking at this way too narrowly. Its also possible that he doesnt buy into the "brightest young coaching prospects" bit. Also, what if he doest care whether or not McDaniels is young? What if he thinks that has been a detriment more than an asset?

lex
07-21-2009, 09:46 AM
Funny. I dont recall saying all that. There is a difference between buying into things and holding on to hope that our team will be fine and trying to find positives. We ALL know the potential disaster that could loom, but as BRONCOS fans, we try to be more optimistic than a Rams fan

You speak for all Broncos fans? I dont remember such an election.

G_Money
07-21-2009, 09:53 AM
I'm with GEM - if you haven't seen the product on the field, it's all just opinion. My opinion is that McDaniels has very little margin for error left, small amounts of goodwill remaining with fans and players alike, and really, REALLY needs Orton to stay healthy and produce like a maniac ASAP. Finding a workable solution on the DL would be good too.

None of that means McDaniels can't be successful. He seems to have surrounded himself with a very good coaching staff, he's brought in a lot of players that increase his comfort level, and he cut his teeth under a HOF coach. One of that coach's main strengths is building a staff that can both teach and build cohesion, and uses strong veteran leadership to maintain its winning ways. We added the vets, and we seem to have that sort of staff - something I can't say about the other branches of the NE coaching tree when they've gone their own way.

But I still expect a rough year. And if Josh can't keep the locker room together he's gonna have a fight on his hands to keep his job a couple years from now. His interpersonal skills have been found lacking thus far, and Nolan was known in SF for throwing his players under the bus for his failures. Scapegoating players is a really fast way to lose them.

So we'll see how it goes. I think the odds are against McDaniels, but the odds are against any new head coach.

But all that is just supposition. Until they play the games, how would you know? Belichick quit on the Jets to take the NE job, after being ridiculously mediocre in Cleveland without a QB. That would raise some red flags for me, as Josh has done. But while Bill has proven to be a first-class jerk, he's also a first-rate coach when he has someone who can run the offense.

McDaniels has a big giant ego in a teeny tiny body. Most successful people do. I'll let the man do his work on the field and prove he deserves to have that ego.

I can say I believe he's on the wrong path, but I can't cuss Bowlen out as a giant douchenozzle of failure, because no failure has yet occured. That fan vowing to protest something that might very well work out in spades before any evidence AT ALL has been seen on the finished product? That's the act of a child. I know fans can be childish, but come on.

~G

CoachChaz
07-21-2009, 09:53 AM
You speak for all Broncos fans? I dont remember such an election.

I only claim those that love the team regardless as fellow fans. The ones buying Bears jerseys and rubbing it off to Spagnuolo are too fair-weathered for my liking.

lex
07-21-2009, 09:58 AM
I only claim those that love the team regardless as fellow fans. The ones buying Bears jerseys and rubbing it off to Spagnuolo are too fair-weathered for my liking.

Sheep like other sheep. Its true.

CoachChaz
07-21-2009, 10:08 AM
Sheep like other sheep. Its true.

Not once have "we" said we agree with everything that has been done. Are we sheep when it comes to our team? Hell yes.

but we do question management and coaching and the decisions. We;re just not ready to hang up a season or a regime that hasnt even played a game yet.

rcsodak
07-21-2009, 10:18 AM
Not once have "we" said we agree with everything that has been done. Are we sheep when it comes to our team? Hell yes.

but we do question management and coaching and the decisions. We;re just not ready to hang up a season or a regime that hasnt even played a game yet.

Please refer to me as a buck, though. TIA

;)

CoachChaz
07-21-2009, 10:26 AM
Please refer to me as a buck, though. TIA

;)

Duely noted. and I shall be Chuck

LRtagger
07-21-2009, 10:41 AM
This is an example of exactly what Ive been talking about when it comes to people turning it into a Shanahan or McDaniels choice. Thats a false choice. None of us really know whether he was in favor of keeping Shanahan. Disliking McDaniels doesnt mean he wanted to keep Shanahan.

Maybe, initially, he was in favor of firing Shanahan but then when he saw Josh's handiwork, Shanahan started to look better again.

All the Josh Heads need to stop referring back to Shanahan whenever there is criticism of McDaniels.

Sorry, but I didn't mention or refer to Shanahan.

There are only a couple of things that have happened since late December that would make one give up completely on a team they have rooted for over the past 24 years. It has only been 7 months and ZERO games have been played.

Four major events have occured since Dec: Shanny got fired, FA signings/cuts, Cutler trade, Draft. So, I assume one or more of those events is what has Fred so riled up. I mentioned two of them in my post because the Draft and FA pickups are subjective. Few people had problems with the FAs we brought in and I assume one wouldnt give up on their team because of one draft (especially considering some of our drafts over the past 25 years)...so that leaves the two events: Shanny and Cutler. I mentioned only Cutler in my post, yet someone all you saw was Shanny.

I also mentioned that Josh has done things that I do not agree with. He has definitely shown he lacks experience in dealing with situations. I see you failed to BOLD that part of my post, yet still referred to me as a "Josh Head". If not becoming a Raiders fan because of a couple of moves made makes me a "Josh Head", "Lemming", or "Sheep" then so be it. I would rather be labelled as all three of those than a Raider fan.

LRtagger
07-21-2009, 10:53 AM
Also let me add that I have no problem with the naysayers that hate McDaniels...however, any good fan will say "I think he's an idiot, BUT I HOPE HE PROVES ME WRONG"

Not "I hate everything, I'm never going to a Broncos game again. I'm going to cheer for the Raiders and I hope the Broncos go 0-16 next year"

Give me a ******* break.

lex
07-21-2009, 11:16 AM
You said changes needed to be made, no? Who else is that referring to but Shanahan?

Actually, its interesting that you neglected to mention hiring josh mcdaniels as a significant event. Its at that point where Pat sold out for a lot of people. For a lot of people Denver has had an identity that people latch on to. There are other reasons that people may have for not approving of what Pat has brought to the table.

Josh Heads and Sheep are all appropriate terms. The guy has been a season ticket holder for 24 years, yet people are calling out his fanhood. Sorry, but the guy has been coughing up coin for too long to be casually dismissed as a non fan. Also, precise reason he is pissed is because he cares about how things are going and isnt happy about it. He doesnt have to blindly accept anything. He is perfectly within his right to object this way. He was a Broncos fan long before Pat brought in McDaniels and could likely be a fan well after McDaniels is gone.


Sorry, but I didn't mention or refer to Shanahan.

There are only a couple of things that have happened since late December that would make one give up completely on a team they have rooted for over the past 24 years. It has only been 7 months and ZERO games have been played.

Four major events have occured since Dec: Shanny got fired, FA signings/cuts, Cutler trade, Draft. So, I assume one or more of those events is what has Fred so riled up. I mentioned two of them in my post because the Draft and FA pickups are subjective. Few people had problems with the FAs we brought in and I assume one wouldnt give up on their team because of one draft (especially considering some of our drafts over the past 25 years)...so that leaves the two events: Shanny and Cutler. I mentioned only Cutler in my post, yet someone all you saw was Shanny.

I also mentioned that Josh has done things that I do not agree with. He has definitely shown he lacks experience in dealing with situations. I see you failed to BOLD that part of my post, yet still referred to me as a "Josh Head". If not becoming a Raiders fan because of a couple of moves made makes me a "Josh Head", "Lemming", or "Sheep" then so be it. I would rather be labelled as all three of those than a Raider fan.

LRtagger
07-21-2009, 11:31 AM
You said changes needed to be made, no? Who else is that referring to but Shanahan?

Seriously?

Defensive Staff, Special Teams Staff, Defensive personel, Offensive red zone %, RB personel.



Actually, its interesting that you neglected to mention hiring josh mcdaniels as a significant event.

Wouldn't you say thats a given....seeing as how the entire thread is about McDaniels.



Its at that point where Pat sold out for a lot of people. For a lot of people Denver has had an identity that people latch on to. There are other reasons that people may have for not approving of what Pat has brought to the table.

I would hardly consider it "selling out". Who exactly is he selling out to? He interviewed all coaches available and he picked the one he felt provided the best chance of winning in the future. Bowlen admitted himself he was not happy with some of the moves Josh has made, but the old man is smart enough to give him some time to put his team together.


Josh Heads and Sheep are all appropriate terms. The guy has been a season ticket holder for 24 years, yet people are calling out his fanhood. Sorry, but the guy has been coughing up coin for too long to be casually dismissed as a non fan. Also, precise reason he is pissed is because he cares about how things are going and isnt happy about it. He doesnt have to blindly accept anything. He is perfectly within his right to object this way. He was a Broncos fan long before Pat brought in McDaniels and could likely be a fan well after McDaniels is gone.

Fine. I'm a Josh head and sheep because I would still give my left nut for season tickets this season. Yet this douche refuses to go to any games and will be rooting for the Raiders this year because he doesn't agree with some of the things Pat and the new FO have done in the past 7 months. If that is your bag of chips, then dive in. But don't be mad when you get your fingers greasy.

lex
07-21-2009, 11:37 AM
I would hardly consider it "selling out". Who exactly is he selling out to? He interviewed all coaches available and he picked the one he felt provided the best chance of winning in the future. Bowlen admitted himself he was not happy with some of the moves Josh has made, but the old man is smart enough to give him some time to put his team together.

Youre not required to consider it "selling out" if we're discussing Fred. Someone like Fred might and thats all that is required. Its amazing that people think every one either does or should have the same reaction to what has transpired this offseason.




Fine. I'm a Josh head and sheep because I would still give my left nut for season tickets this season. Yet this douche refuses to go to any games and will be rooting for the Raiders this year because he doesn't agree with some of the things Pat and the new FO have done in the past 7 months. If that is your bag of chips, then dive in. But don't be mad when you get your fingers greasy.

Interesting metaphor but how is Fred getting his fingers greasy?

LRtagger
07-21-2009, 12:53 PM
Youre not required to consider it "selling out" if we're discussing Fred. Someone like Fred might and thats all that is required. Its amazing that people think every one either does or should have the same reaction to what has transpired this offseason.

Yes we are discussing Fred's quote, but you are the one that said Bowlen sold out. Fred said nothing about selling out, so that is a drect response to your quote. I just asked exactly how and to whom he sold out to. You managed to deflect the question quite well, though.


Interesting metaphor but how is Fred getting his fingers greasy?

I personally would consider going from a Broncos fan to a Raiders fan as such. But then again maybe not...seems their fanbase is more loyal. You don't see them jumping ship to the Broncos everytime Al Davis makes a dumb move (often).

CoachChaz
07-21-2009, 12:55 PM
I canunderstand having an issue with this off-season, but jumping ship to another team? Childish

lex
07-21-2009, 01:01 PM
Yes we are discussing Fred's quote, but you are the one that said Bowlen sold out. Fred said nothing about selling out, so that is a drect response to your quote. I just asked exactly how and to whom he sold out to. You managed to deflect the question quite well, though.



I personally would consider going from a Broncos fan to a Raiders fan as such. But then again maybe not...seems their fanbase is more loyal. You don't see them jumping ship to the Broncos everytime Al Davis makes a dumb move (often).


There are a lot of reactions to what has happened, one of them being that Bowlen sold us out. So in speculating where Fred is coming from, acknowledging that many feel Bowlen sold us out is perfectly sensible.

LRtagger
07-21-2009, 01:07 PM
There are a lot of reactions to what has happened, one of them being that Bowlen sold us out. So in speculating where Fred is coming from, acknowledging that many feel Bowlen sold us out is perfectly sensible.

Thats fine, but I would still like to know exactly who he sold the fans out to. I mean, he fired a coach he knew he would still have to pay $7mil a year to because he was tired of mediocre seasons of finishing in second place and missing the playoffs.

He went through an extensive interviewing process and narrowed it down to the candidate he felt best suited the team. Yes, it is very debatable whether that person was the right candidate.

But in no way have I seen Pat do anything that resembles selling out. Selling out would have been him hiring the cheapest available head coach regardless of who it was...or trading all of our first round picks for second day picks because he didnt want to pay them....or not paying big bucks to get veteran locker room leadership....or not letting Josh turn half the roster over because he didnt want to lose the money. But wait, he didn't do any of those things.

He let Josh make some bad decisions, but that's about it.

dogfish
07-21-2009, 01:08 PM
Last I heard the waiting list for season tickets was like 9 years or something crazy like that. I remember when I was a kid the waiting list was something like 16 years.


they were calling it thirteen years when i signed up a month or so ago. . . .

lex
07-21-2009, 01:11 PM
Thats fine, but I would still like to know exactly who he sold the fans out to. I mean, he fired a coach he knew he would still have to pay $7mil a year to because he was tired of mediocre seasons of finishing in second place and missing the playoffs.

He went through an extensive interviewing process and narrowed it down to the candidate he felt best suited the team. Yes, it is very debatable whether that person was the right candidate.

But in no way have I seen Pat do anything that resembles selling out. Selling out would have been him hiring the cheapest available head coach regardless of who it was...or trading all of our first round picks for second day picks because he didnt want to pay them....or not paying big bucks to get veteran locker room leadership....or not letting Josh turn half the roster over because he didnt want to lose the money. But wait, he didn't do any of those things.

He let Josh make some bad decisions, but that's about it.


Theres more to it than that.

Lonestar
07-21-2009, 01:13 PM
Theres more to it than that.


then explain it like he did.. thats pretty simple..

lex
07-21-2009, 01:19 PM
then explain it like he did.. thats pretty simple..

I have.

Lonestar
07-21-2009, 01:28 PM
I have.



well try again, because he rebutted your comment quite well.. or stop spamming the thread..


Theres more to it than that.

and

with I have

Either explain it or let it drop , what you are doing in baiting to get a reaction and spamming to increase your post count....

lex
07-21-2009, 01:29 PM
well try again, because he rebutted your comment quite well.. or stop spamming the thread..


Theres more to it than that.

and

with I have

Either explain it or let it drop , what you are doing in baiting to get a reaction and spamming to increase your post count....

Like I said, I have responded to it. He's more than welcome to review the thread. I cant make him do that but its accessible to him.

Lonestar
07-21-2009, 01:37 PM
Like I said, I have responded to it. He's more than welcome to review the thread. I cant make him do that but its accessible to him.

then let it drop.. and that statement does not require a response from you other than VIA PM....

now lets get :focus: which is Fred..

lex
07-21-2009, 01:50 PM
then let it drop.. and that statement does not require a response from you other than VIA PM....

now lets get :focus: which is Fred..


I was asked a question and answered in a way that tells him that he can find it elsewhere. Its practical to tell him this rather than ignoring him. And I dont acknowledge your opinion about a successful rebuttal. Yeah, I could add more but I think that more recent time I spoke on this I also said there are any number of reasons why someone is entitled to feel this way. Ive identified some of them. None of them need your approval. Again, there is no such requirement. Being a fan doesnt mean blindly accepting. You can do that if you want but its not really the burden of every one (or anyone) to be like you.

LRtagger
07-21-2009, 01:57 PM
I dont have a problem with your POV. Honestly, I can see why some fans hate most of the changes...but this thread is about Fred, and Fred is a douche for giving up on the team and moving to the Raiders. Not sure how that makes me a sheep or follower because I'm not anti-establishment and will remain optimistic.

There are tons of Broncos fans across the country that would give up a lot for the opportunity to have season tickets. I would love to have season tickets even if we fielded a team equal to that of the 2008 Lions. I paid a lot of money and drove a very long way just to go to ONE game last season....and I would have paid that same money and drove that same distance if the team was winless up to that point.

To turn your back on a team you have followed for 20+ years just because of one offseason is, for lack of a better word (and no offense meant to anyone), retarded.

lex
07-21-2009, 02:09 PM
I dont have a problem with your POV. Honestly, I can see why some fans hate most of the changes...but this thread is about Fred, and Fred is a douche for giving up on the team and moving to the Raiders. Not sure how that makes me a sheep or follower because I'm not anti-establishment and will remain optimistic.

There are tons of Broncos fans across the country that would give up a lot for the opportunity to have season tickets. I would love to have season tickets even if we fielded a team equal to that of the 2008 Lions. I paid a lot of money and drove a very long way just to go to ONE game last season....and I would have paid that same money and drove that same distance if the team was winless up to that point.

To turn your back on a team you have followed for 20+ years just because of one offseason is, for lack of a better word (and no offense meant to anyone), retarded.

Because the criticism of Fred is for not accepting what has been happening recently...as if he is required to accept the current regime to be a fan. He's pissed and thats why he is lashing out (if you want to call it that) in this way. He's not pulling for the Raiders because he now loves them. The opposite of love is indifference, not hate. This is what youre seeing here. He most likely has been intensely dedicated and is now pissed.

LRtagger
07-21-2009, 02:15 PM
He is not required to accept anything. He can be pissed right along with the rest of the fans that are pissed. But he commented that he will be rooting for the Broncos to finish 2-14 and will be cheering for the Raiders to beat the Broncos.

I'm not saying he's not allowed react this way, but it doesn't make him any less of a douche for doing so.

lex
07-21-2009, 02:18 PM
He is not required to accept anything. He can be pissed right along with the rest of the fans that are pissed. But he commented that he will be rooting for the Broncos to finish 2-14 and will be cheering for the Raiders to beat the Broncos.

I'm not saying he's not allowed react this way, but it doesn't make him any less of a douche for doing so.


I just addressed that. He isnt doing this because he now loves Oakland. He hates what has been happening and wants it over with. Perhaps he feels that winning isnt worth all this as well.

Lonestar
07-21-2009, 02:20 PM
He is not required to accept anything. He can be pissed right along with the rest of the fans that are pissed. But he commented that he will be rooting for the Broncos to finish 2-14 and will be cheering for the Raiders to beat the Broncos.

I'm not saying he's not allowed react this way, but it doesn't make him any less of a douche for doing so.


he is a douche you called it right and whining about it will not fix it..

No one will miss him hope he enjoys the raiders games..

lex
07-21-2009, 02:22 PM
he is a douche you called it right and whining about it will not fix it..

No one will miss him hope he enjoys the raiders games..

Yeah, fan backlash has never resulted in a reaction from the team.

LRtagger
07-21-2009, 02:30 PM
I just addressed that. He isnt doing this because he now loves Oakland. He hates what has been happening and wants it over with. Perhaps he feels that winning isnt worth all this as well.

If he isn't concerned with winning, then why get so upset?

Personally, if I were that pissed about McDaniels, I would want him to prove me wrong by WINNING rather than hoping the team loses just so I get my way. Maybe that is just me following the hurd.

lex
07-21-2009, 02:36 PM
If he isn't concerned with winning, then why get so upset?

Personally, if I were that pissed about McDaniels, I would want him to prove me wrong by WINNING rather than hoping the team loses just so I get my way. Maybe that is just me following the hurd.

Perhaps its about how as much too.

CoachChaz
07-21-2009, 02:41 PM
So now winning isnt enough...we have to do it a certain way?

lex
07-21-2009, 02:46 PM
So now winning isnt enough...we have to do it a certain way?


Denver has had a history of success well before Belichick accomplished* anything in NE and even before Shanahan became head coach in Denver. So, yeah. There is that element that looking to NE is buying into the whole disgusting idea that some seem to have that NE invented football in 2001.

So, yeah, put another way, identity is a part of it.

CoachChaz
07-21-2009, 02:51 PM
Denver has had a history of success well before Belichick accomplished* anything in NE and even before Shanahan became head coach in Denver. So, yeah. There is that element that looking to NE is buying into the whole disgusting idea that some seem to have that NE invented football in 2001.

So, yeah, put another way, identity is a part of it.

But by that rationale, Shanahan did it the Walsh way. What the hell difference does it make as far as the system you use? If it works and wins us games...I'm all for it.

LRtagger
07-21-2009, 03:02 PM
Denver has had a history of success well before Belichick accomplished* anything in NE and even before Shanahan became head coach in Denver. So, yeah. There is that element that looking to NE is buying into the whole disgusting idea that some seem to have that NE invented football in 2001.

So, yeah, put another way, identity is a part of it.


Josh will bring his own coaching phylosophy to this team based on what he learned in NE. I think you area little out of line suggesting that Josh can't think for himself. Besides, since when is it a bad thing when success is the foundation for your coaching style? As CC mentioned, Shanny did the same through Walsh.

lex
07-21-2009, 03:09 PM
Josh will bring his own coaching phylosophy to this team based on what he learned in NE. I think you area little out of line suggesting that Josh can't think for himself. Besides, since when is it a bad thing when success is the foundation for your coaching style? As CC mentioned, Shanny did the same through Walsh.

Shanahan was in Denver before he went to SF. Shanahan had a rapport with Elway and you have to think that factored into Shanahan becoming the coach of Denver in 95. Plus, on top of that, Shanahan had a wealth of experience even before Denver. He was the OC at UF in the 80s and was also on Oklahoma's staff when during its wishbone days. There was a broader base other than "what we did in New England".

Lonestar
07-21-2009, 03:14 PM
Shanahan was in Denver before he went to SF. Shanahan had a rapport with Elway and you have to think that factored into Shanahan becoming the coach of Denver in 95. Plus, on top of that, Shanahan had a wealth of experience even before Denver. He was the OC at UF in the 80s and was also on Oklahoma's staff when during its wishbone days. There was a broader base other than "what we did in New England".



yes and we all saw what he was not able to do without 7-10 HOF and potential players also..

Josh is the new coach learn to deal with whatever system he brings to town..

Personally NE West works for me if that means consistent playoffs .. better than the mediocrity of the last 10 years or so..

lex
07-21-2009, 03:27 PM
yes and we all saw what he was not able to do without 7-10 HOF and potential players also..

Josh is the new coach learn to deal with whatever system he brings to town..

Personally NE West works for me if that means consistent playoffs .. better than the mediocrity of the last 10 years or so..

Yeah, with all the bad mouthing, youd think Denver was awful over the past decade but in reality they had one of the top winning %s during that time and thats without having an elite QB most of that time.

If you look at the winning % over the past decade, its not mediocre.

broncofanatic1987
07-21-2009, 04:40 PM
I think he's anticipating or hoping that McDaniels will be gone season. The guy has been a season ticket holder for 24 years. Im sure he thinks bigger picture than one season (ie the upcoming one) and I doubt he wants to go to the back of the line for the season ticket.

Actually, its questionable whether youre a better fan than Fred at all. Again, he is pissed at the organization because he is cares enough and isnt built in a way that allows him to share the optimism of some.

Fred, is that you?:laugh::laugh::laugh::D:elefant:

rcsodak
07-21-2009, 09:32 PM
Because the criticism of Fred is for not accepting what has been happening recently...as if he is required to accept the current regime to be a fan. He's pissed and thats why he is lashing out (if you want to call it that) in this way. He's not pulling for the Raiders because he now loves them. The opposite of love is indifference, not hate. This is what youre seeing here. He most likely has been intensely dedicated and is now pissed.

So you're saying it's ok to screw your gf's cousin if you don't like her new hairdresser?

Gotcha. :coffee:

And I've never heard the expression: 'its a love/indifference relationship'. :rolleyes:

Fred is prolly an overweight, 45yo maintenance guy, who lives in his mommy/daddy's basement; and has never even been to Invesco Field.

rcsodak
07-21-2009, 09:36 PM
Shanahan was in Denver before he went to SF. Shanahan had a rapport with Elway and you have to think that factored into Shanahan becoming the coach of Denver in 95. Plus, on top of that, Shanahan had a wealth of experience even before Denver. He was the OC at UF in the 80s and was also on Oklahoma's staff when during its wishbone days. There was a broader base other than "what we did in New England".

Other than getting away from "Fred" again.....


....I sure don't remember Shanny EVER using the wishbone from his OU days. :coffee:

McD was also on a college staff. Evidently that doesn't count?

lex
07-21-2009, 10:05 PM
So you're saying it's ok to screw your gf's cousin if you don't like her new hairdresser?

Gotcha. :coffee:



You dont need to quote me to have imaginary conversations with yourself.


Other than getting away from "Fred" again.....


....I sure don't remember Shanny EVER using the wishbone from his OU days. :coffee:

McD was also on a college staff. Evidently that doesn't count?

Awesome. This one is quite the gem. LOL.

Chica_Ang
07-21-2009, 10:14 PM
Deep thinker. "You are 100 percent correct that McDaniels has restored the team-first concept in Denver, and strengthened the defense by adding a real coaching staff and new players. I love the guy who wrote he won't ROOT for the Broncos , won't use his season tickets and will ROOT for the Raiders until McDaniels gets fired. With that deep intelligence, I wonder what he does for a living? I sure hope I don't ever need his help."

Dennis, Spotswood, N.J.

Kiz: I've heard of going over to the dark side. But I would like to see a man who has forsaken the Broncos for the Raiders to stand up in the middle of a game at Mile High, announce his intentions and then, you know, see what happens.

Oh my goodness...no imagination required here! :lol:

rcsodak
07-22-2009, 08:44 PM
You dont need to quote me to have imaginary conversations with yourself.



Awesome. This one is quite the gem. LOL.

Table for 1, please. :coffee: