Broncos fan temperature reading: 1995

[rationalfan]

After reading through another thread rendered irrelevant by recycled ideas that mcdaniels is a poor coach because he's driven by ego (what coach isn't?) and people questioning his system implementation (again, what coach won't install his schemes and players?) I'm wondering one thing:

Was there this much vitriol, angst and despair when Shanahan took over in 95? (I was too busy in college studying for freshman exams to have noticed).

I can imagine people complaining that Shanahan was a "loser" who'd been fired by Bowlen twice and Al Davis after a few weeks. Or people were lamenting the loss of Wade Phillips because a young offensive mind was taking over the team. And it's easy to imagine fans ripping into Shanahan for signing a journeyman wide receiver (McCaffrey) and bringing the San Francisco philosophy to Denver.

Obviously, the internet was in its infancy at that time so we don't have archives of mindless message board chatter to remind us change breeds contempt (and fear).

But, seriously, anybody remember the mood when Shanny took over?

[nevcraw]

Reeves fired shanny not Bowlen once & the other time he left on his own accord.
Bowlen tried to get him before the wade phillips era but he said no.
The fact shannihan was Elway's guy and had won the SB in san francisco there was a ton of positive excitement.

[lex]

It wasnt anything like this. The Niners had just pounded the Chargers in the SB putting on an offensive display. Plus Shanahan had been in Denver before and had a good rapport with Elway. The circumstances werent the same at all.

[BroncoTech]

Shanny replaced Wade Phillips who reportedly fell asleep a lot during film study. Also he was Elway's guy, unlike Reeves and Phillips. I remember high fiving my brother when we heard the news.

[lex]

When we hired Shanahan, Bowlen put on a disguise and infiltrated the Niners post SB party to court Shanahan. When Bowlen hired McDaniels, he had Joe Ellis, a marketing guy, telling him what to do.

[Lonestar]

Frankly I do not get all the love for mike as HC, he was a great OC but past that point..

Did he win? sure..

was he a control freak? Yep..

Did he come from a winning organization? absolutely..

did he take over a team that had alot of the pieces in place? yep 4 maybe 5 future HOF players-

did he need a couple of pieces to round the team out.. Yep

did he change the O? yep..

was there a complete change in coaching staff? I suspect so but could be wrong..

was there a lot of players unhappy? I do not recall..

did he replace an ineffective coach?.. Yep nice guy and knew defense but not to bright on Offense..

was he and experienced HC.. no

was he an offensive coordinator. yes on a winning team..

Did he change the offense YEP..


I would guess that many of the same things apply today.. there was a reason mike got fired and Pay brought in a dynamic new HC..

[Dean]

Frankly I do not get all the love for mike as HC, he was a great OC but past that point..

Did he win? sure..


I would guess that many of the same things apply today.. there was a reason mike got fired and Pay brought in a dynamic new HC..

I think your first line answers why many are sad that Mike was fired. I will have to wait to see if Pat brought in a dynamic new HC or just McKid.

[Shazam!]

The similarities between now and '95 are so familiar.

As JR said pieces were in place. There was a load of talent on this team back then.

Shanahan was the savior at the time to John Elway, so that is enough I guess.

I wonder where Charlie Waters is now?

[Lonestar]

I think your first line answers why many are sad that Mike was fired. I will have to wait to see if Pat brought in a dynamic new HC or just McKid.



yes he did indeed win alot of games in 1996-98 and then again in 2003-05..
when he had a good QB he was pretty good.. when he did not he was pretty above average.. Hmmmmm

1995 8-8 .500
1996 13-3 .813
1997 12-4 .750
1998 14-2 .875
1999 6-10 .375
2000 11-5 .688
2001 8-8 .500
2002 9-7 .563
2003 10-6 .625
2004 10-6 .625
2005 13-3 .813
2006 9-7 .563
2007 7-9 .438
2008 8-8 .500

[Dean]

yes he did indeed win alot of games in 1996-98 and then again in 2003-05..
when he had a good QB he was pretty good.. when he did not he was pretty above average.. Hmmmmm

1995 8-8 .500
1996 13-3 .813
1997 12-4 .750
1998 14-2 .875
1999 6-10 .375
2000 11-5 .688
2001 8-8 .500
2002 9-7 .563
2003 10-6 .625
2004 10-6 .625
2005 13-3 .813
2006 9-7 .563
2007 7-9 .438
2008 8-8 .500



I am not surprised that a good QB is necessary to do well. Mike revived and supplimented (running game) the first QB (Elway) by putting him in a West Coast offense. In Jake's case he did not a having winning record until he joined Shanahan and cut down on his turnovers. He was 58-54 with the QBs you designated as poor.

[Lonestar]

The similarities between now and '95 are so familiar.

As JR said pieces were in place. There was a load of talent on this team back then.
Shanahan was the savior at the time to John Elway, so that is enough I guess.

I wonder where Charlie Waters is now?


John, Sharpe, , Atwater, Elam, Zimmerman, Nalen.. Rod Signed as a UDFA in 1995

HOF talent on the team already with the following that were pretty much starters or backup those glory years..

aldridge, burns, croel, braxton, fletcher, Dan Williams..

[Lonestar]

I am not surprised that a good QB is necessary to do well. Mike revived and supplimented 9running game) the first QB (Elway) by putting him in a West Coast offense. In Jake's case he did not a having winning record until he joined Shanahan and cut down on his turnovers. He was 58-54 with the QBs you designated as poor.


So Jake was poor before he came to DEN perhaps it might have been some surrounding talent and God only knows how many coaches he had..


I just know he was a winner here..as was John..

[Ravage!!!]

Perhaps it really is how a coach makes a difference in a players talent. Imagine that.

[Chidoze]

I cant remember that far back, but I'm pretty sure that as long as #7 was there, most people knew the Broncos had a good chance.

[Shazam!]

Perhaps it really is how a coach makes a difference in a players talent. Imagine that.

Actually, in 1994, Denver had a Top 10 Offense, Top 10 in passing and Top 10 in scoring.

But the defense was abysmal.

Hmmmm. Sounds familiar. Almost like last year.

Perhaps it really is how a coach makes a difference in a players talent. Imagine that.

[lex]

A) Thats not a surprise; B) no one is asking you to.



Frankly I do not get all the love for mike as HC, he was a great OC but past that point..

Did he win? sure..

was he a control freak? Yep..

Did he come from a winning organization? absolutely..

did he take over a team that had alot of the pieces in place? yep 4 maybe 5 future HOF players-

did he need a couple of pieces to round the team out.. Yep

did he change the O? yep..

was there a complete change in coaching staff? I suspect so but could be wrong..

was there a lot of players unhappy? I do not recall..

did he replace an ineffective coach?.. Yep nice guy and knew defense but not to bright on Offense..

was he and experienced HC.. no

was he an offensive coordinator. yes on a winning team..

Did he change the offense YEP..


I would guess that many of the same things apply today.. there was a reason mike got fired and Pay brought in a dynamic new HC..

[horsepig]

A) Thats not a surprise; B) no one is asking you to.

Huh?

[sneakers]

But, seriously, anybody remember the mood when Shanny took over?

I think it was a pretty similar situation to the one we are in now....Good offense, terrible Defense. The game that really sticks out to me is the home game against the raiders in '94 where Jeff Hostetler threw 4 touchdown passes (and the raiders scored at will all game long) and we lost like 49-17 at Home.

I think that season's defense was worse than this passed season's.

[Shazam!]

I think that season's defense was worse than this passed season's.

Sadly, it doesn't seem that way... Pro Football Reference:

1994 Broncos Defense

Overall- 25
Points- 25
1st Downs- 15
Overall Yards- 28
Pass yards- 28
Pass TDs- 27
Rushing Yards- 17
Rush TDs- 17
Rush Avg- 25
Turnovers- 20

2008 Broncos Defense-

Overall- 30
Points- 30
1st Downs- 29
Overall yards- 29
Passing Yards- 26
Pass TDs- 14
Rush Yards- 27
Rush TDs- 30
Rush Avg- 30
Turnovers- 30

[horsepig]

Get out your true stat page and look at what last year's defense on 3'rd and 7. 2'nd and 12, 3'rd and 1. They lost almost all those battles. Define a ratio of 1'st downs gained by the opposing offense against scenarios where the defense had the advantage.

Last year's defense was the worst I've ever seen. If you give up a 1'st down on a 3'rd and 22 you lose 15 points. If you stop a run on 2'nd and 3 you get 1 point. If you give up 4 yards on 2'nd or 3'rd and 3 you lose like 5 points. If you stuff a 3'rd and 2 you plus 2 or 3 points. Factor in field position into t5hose stats asnd last year's Denver defense was the worst in NFL history.

[Lonestar]

Get out your true stat page and look at what last year's defense on 3'rd and 7. 2'nd and 12, 3'rd and 1. They lost almost all those battles. Define a ratio of 1'st downs gained by the opposing offense against scenarios where the defense had the advantage.

Last year's defense was the worst I've ever seen. If you give up a 1'st down on a 3'rd and 22 you lose 15 points. If you stop a run on 2'nd and 3 you get 1 point. If you give up 4 yards on 2'nd or 3'rd and 3 you lose like 5 points. If you stuff a 3'rd and 2 you plus 2 or 3 points. Factor in field position into t5hose stats asnd last year's Denver defense was the worst in NFL history.


hey hey hey your acting logical again:salute: that is not allowed here..:laugh:

[Dean]

Sadly, it doesn't seem that way... Pro Football Reference:

1994 Broncos Defense

Overall- 25
Points- 25
1st Downs- 15
Overall Yards- 28
Pass yards- 28
Pass TDs- 27
Rushing Yards- 17
Rush TDs- 17
Rush Avg- 25
Turnovers- 20

2008 Broncos Defense-

Overall- 30
Points- 30
1st Downs- 29
Overall yards- 29
Passing Yards- 26
Pass TDs- 14
Rush Yards- 27
Rush TDs- 30
Rush Avg- 30
Turnovers- 30

For 1994 the stats at NFL.com are as follows.http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&season=1994&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

[Shazam!]

Sadly, it doesn't seem that way... Pro Football Reference:

1994 Broncos Defense

Overall- 25
Points- 25
1st Downs- 15
Overall Yards- 28
Pass yards- 28
Pass TDs- 27
Rushing Yards- 17
Rush TDs- 17
Rush Avg- 25
Turnovers- 20

2008 Broncos Defense-

Overall- 30
Points- 30
1st Downs- 29
Overall yards- 29
Passing Yards- 26
Pass TDs- 14
Rush Yards- 27
Rush TDs- 30
Rush Avg- 30
Turnovers- 30


For 1994 the stats at NFL.com are as follows.http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&season=1994&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

They're exactly as I posted them.

[Dean]

My URL was not that you had any of the stats incorrect but that the reader has to remember that there were only 28 teams back then not 32. So scoring 28th actually means that you were in last place not that there were 4 teams worse than yours.

I guess that I should have clarified my point in the original post.

[Northman]

Yea, because of Shanahan's history with Elway there was far more excitement than grief or uncertainty. For me, i was just happy to have Phillips out of the fold as i was severely disappointed when he replaced Reeves. Thank God it did not take long for Bowlen to remove him. But i dont remember hearing too much animosity towards Shanahan when he came on board.

[Northman]

I cant remember that far back, but I'm pretty sure that as long as #7 was there, most people knew the Broncos had a good chance.

What? Didnt you have faith in #16? :lol:

[CoachChaz]

Yea, because of Shanahan's history with Elway there was far more excitement than grief or uncertainty. For me, i was just happy to have Phillips out of the fold as i was severely disappointed when he replaced Reeves. Thank God it did not take long for Bowlen to remove him. But i dont remember hearing too much animosity towards Shanahan when he came on board.

Alot of that had to do with Shanny having previously worked with the organization and having a good idea of the talent he had and how to utilize it. The difference with McD is, yes...he had a very skilled QB, but it was also a QB that made it pretty obvious that he wasnt happy with the change. Elway openly welcomed Shanny. Cutler wasnt the same towards McD.

[Lonestar]

Alot of that had to do with Shanny having previously worked with the organization and having a good idea of the talent he had and how to utilize it. The difference with McD is, yes...he had a very skilled QB, but it was also a QB that made it pretty obvious that he wasnt happy with the change. Elway openly welcomed Shanny. Cutler wasnt the same towards McD.

you noticed that also:laugh:

I think it was more that mike was fired and what he may have promised jay and BM for new contracts this season after their HNL trip..

trying to keep them in the fold and a raise without the CBA in place..

I also believe that after seeing even more game film of his "star" QB and his antics he may have not minded losing him afterall.. I know that the other teams have a book on him and I'm sure that the PATS knew his strong points and weak ones and Josh knew he had something special IF he could break those bad habits.. and after talking with him probably figured out it was going to be harder to do than he thought it was.. After all mike did little but feed his ego that last year.. I can't remember one time chewing his ass out like he did with Jake, after jay had made a mistake..

Maybe I did not see it but then I did not get to see all of the games either..

[Northman]

I can't remember one time chewing his ass out like he did with Jake, after jay had made a mistake..




To be fair i think a lot of that had to do with Cutler still being wet behind the ears. Jake was a veteran doing the same kind of things and thus took some heat for it. But i dont think Shanahan should of given Jay the pass that he did overall. There should of been some kind of discipline even if it meant benching him for a quarter or whatever.

[CoachChaz]

you noticed that also:laugh:

I think it was more that mike was fired and what he may have promised jay and BM for new contracts this season after their HNL trip..

trying to keep them in the fold and a raise without the CBA in place..

I also believe that after seeing even more game film of his "star" QB and his antics he may have not minded losing him afterall.. I know that the other teams have a book on him and I'm sure that the PATS knew his strong points and weak ones and Josh knew he had something special IF he could break those bad habits.. and after talking with him probably figured out it was going to be harder to do than he thought it was.. After all mike did little but feed his ego that last year.. I can't remember one time chewing his ass out like he did with Jake, after jay had made a mistake..

Maybe I did not see it but then I did not get to see all of the games either..

I think the thing that intrigues me the most AFTER the debacle is how so many "experts" figure that Jay is going to be the saving grace of Chicago and lead them to the division title immediately.

I was a fan of Jay as much as anyone, but what I liked the most about him was his potential. That being said, no one can ignore his shortcomings and we ALL hoped he'd grow out of them. Some how I just dont see that happening in one off-season. When you add to the fact that he played in a QB friendly offense with alot of weapons and a great OL...it makes sense that he could have the moderate success that he had. Now, does that translate to the same thing in Chicago? Where they have a lesser OL and lesser skill around the QB? It just doesnt add up.

The point I'm getting at is Jay has been nothing but admired and martyred this off-season and I dont know how much that is going to do for his skill and desire to improve. It would be easy for a young kid to take all this and feed his ego with it. Will it happen? Remains to be seen, but I'll still put my money on Orton having a better season this year than Cutler. The highlight reels wont be the same, but the productivity will be.

[Lonestar]

I think the thing that intrigues me the most AFTER the debacle is how so many "experts" figure that Jay is going to be the saving grace of Chicago and lead them to the division title immediately.

I was a fan of Jay as much as anyone, but what I liked the most about him was his potential. That being said, no one can ignore his shortcomings and we ALL hoped he'd grow out of them. Some how I just dont see that happening in one off-season. When you add to the fact that he played in a QB friendly offense with alot of weapons and a great OL...it makes sense that he could have the moderate success that he had. Now, does that translate to the same thing in Chicago? Where they have a lesser OL and lesser skill around the QB? It just doesnt add up.

The point I'm getting at is Jay has been nothing but admired and martyred this off-season and I dont know how much that is going to do for his skill and desire to improve. It would be easy for a young kid to take all this and feed his ego with it. Will it happen? Remains to be seen, but I'll still put my money on Orton having a better season this year than Cutler. The highlight reels wont be the same, but the productivity will be.


Had not thought about the ego feeding that is going on in CHI that could cripple this kid between the ears....

If he does not live up to those lofty goals that have been set for him in the minds of the fans and coaches. the fans are going to eat him alive.. way to many of them are dreaming of a Lombardi is in their pocket.. and are designing and being measured for SB rings..


I believe your correct about Orton having a better year..

[CoachChaz]

Had not thought about the ego feeding that is going on in CHI that could cripple this kid between the ears....

If he does not live up to those lofty goals that have been set for him in the minds of the fans and coaches. the fans are going to eat him alive.. way to many of them are dreaming of a Lombardi is in their pocket.. and are designing and being measured for SB rings..


I believe your correct about Orton having a better year..

I cant speak for what the coaches are saying to him, but the media has firmly lodged their manhood between the buttocks of one Jay Cutler

[Lonestar]

I cant speak for what the coaches are saying to him, but the media has firmly lodged their manhood between the buttocks of one Jay Cutler



Yep and they will be the first to turn on him especially costing them 2 #1's if he does not become a superstar..

Like in Philly but not as bad, their fans in Chicago are brutal ..

[Shazam!]

My URL was not that you had any of the stats incorrect but that the reader has to remember that there were only 28 teams back then not 32. So scoring 28th actually means that you were in last place not that there were 4 teams worse than yours.

I guess that I should have clarified my point in the original post.

This is kind of like do we want bleach poured in your eyes or ammonia?

94- 396 total points, 24.8 AVG ppg, 369 ypg

08- 448 Total points, 28 AVG ppg, 374 ypg

It says nothing, but I think 94's Broncos defense wasn't as bad as 2008's, even though the League was smaller and that unit was still pathetic. They gave up more points, yards, AVG PP in 2008 than 1994, even with more teams. It just shows how low the Broncos have gone under Shanahan's stagnant leadership.

I wonder where Charlie Waters is these days?