PDA

View Full Version : Holmgren and Shanahan



Dean
07-15-2009, 11:41 AM
IMO Mike Shanahan has been the best coach that the Broncos have ever had and talk has been very quiet in regard to what he is going to do. Lombardi addresses what two of the best coaches of the last decade might re-emerge.


..NFP»Columns»Notes from Lombardi»Diner Morning News
RSS

Diner morning news: A look at two coachesShanahan and Holmgren are good fits for the 'Skins, and anyone else. Michael Lombardi
Print This Send This July 14, 2009 .17 Comments .QUOTE: “One must change one's tactics every ten years if one wishes to maintain one's superiority.” – Napoleon Bonaparte

On Monday, we introduced the concept of pretending to be Washington Redskins owner Daniel Snyder as he surveys the landscape of head coaches who won Super Bowls and are out of work. Today and Wednesday, we’ll break down those five coaches and shed light on what “The Daniel” can expect if he were to hire any of them. All bring unique qualities to their profession, all have unique styles and all take different approaches to winning in the NFL. Remember, becoming a head coach in the NFL is a tougher professional achievement than becoming a U.S. senator. It’s a very small group of leaders that should be the best and the brightest. Often, however, the hiring process does not bring the best and the brightest to the forefront -- but that’s a story for another column. Today, we need to help Mr. Snyder pick the right coach.

(Side note: I have always been a Redskins fan, starting with the day Edward Bennett Williams hired Vince Lombardi from the Packers. Even though Lombardi died in 1970, I remained a ‘Skins fan until my hiring by the San Francisco 49ers in May 1984. So I have a soft spot in my heart for them and want them to do well.)


AP
Tony Dungy
I have not included former Indy Colts coach Tony Dungy or former Giants, Patriots, Jets and Cowboys coach Bill Parcells in this breakdown since they’ve indicated they are officially retired from coaching – and I’m taking them at their word. Dungy is a man who values significance over success, so I don’t expect him to jump right back into the fire of NFL coaching. Do I think he’ll never come back? I’ve learned after 23 years in the NFL to never say never. As for Parcells, I really believe he enjoys his current role with the Dolphins and honestly believe his coaching days are over. But again, never say (or write) never.

Each of these head coaches will bring a “band of brothers.” Much like Joe Gibbs brought back his posse, expect each one to have a select group of coaches or administrators attached to his infrastructure. If for some reason we don’t like any of the “band of brothers,” it might seriously damage our chances of securing the head coach’s services. So we must evaluate the head coach along with the organizational infrastructure attached to him.


AP
Bill Cowher
On to the evaluations. For the record, I’ve worked with all of these men except Brian Billick. Today, we’ll examine the two Mikes -- Shanahan and Holmgren -- then look at Bill Cowher, Jon “Love You Bro” Gruden and Billick on Wednesday. On Thursday, we’ll make a recommendation to “The Daniel” if, in fact, he needs a coach next January.

Another factor to consider in each evaluation is what I call the “Art Modell Hiring/Firing Procedure.” Modell was a great owner -- funny, honest and caring, but most of all, he wanted desperately to win a championship. He was a joy to work for; he might have fired a few coaches and executives, but he always cared about people. The firings were business, not personal. What I learned from working for Mr. Modell was that he would often fire someone for doing three things poorly but ignore the 25 things the person did very well. Then he would hire someone who did those three things very well but only did 10 other things well. So at the end of the day, he never improved the situation. As Bill Walsh once said, “The search for the perfect player never ends.” And the theory goes when searching for a coach as well.


AP
Michael Shanahan
Mike Shanahan: 56 years old, 146-95 overall record, two Super Bowls

The above quote by Napoleon applies to Mike. Leaving Denver might be the best thing that has happened to Shanahan because it’s given him a chance to recharge his batteries, review the things he did well in Denver as well as the things he did poorly.

Shanahan is the type of leader who learns from his mistakes. He has a great sense of pride, craves information, wants to excel and is not afraid to change. This firing was not expected; it caught Shanahan by surprise, so it will serve as a rallying cry for him to get back to basics and come back better than ever. Self-evaluation probably has been a big part of Mike’s life the past six months.

Mike is also the type of leader who has to be in full control of the roster, the personnel movement and the organization’s philosophy. When hiring Mike, you get a comprehensive program, one that can win Super Bowls. Now that he’s had time to reflect on the later years in Denver, it’s my belief that when Mike returns to the sidelines, it will be with an improved plan that accounts for his mistakes.

Someone I respect greatly in the NFL once told me, “If Mike Shanahan ever had the right personnel man to help him, he would win Super Bowls every year.” That line was one of the main reasons I went to Denver to see if I could assist him. Personnel issues on defense became his downfall as the players they counted on to be effective didn’t pan out. Mistakes were made, huge money was lost and the residual effect of each bad signing eventually cost Mike his job.

Shanahan is one of the best strategic coaches in the NFL. He brings instant credibility to a franchise along with a huge boost to the offense. He understands the essential elements of what it takes to win an NFL championship. He also has two years left on his contract, averaging around $7 million per season.

There’s an old Army adage that goes, ”The hungry solder is the best soldier.” That theory may apply to Mike, whose hunger to prove he’s still a top-flight coach yearns inside.


AP
Mike Holmgren
Mike Holmgren: 61 years old, 170-111 overall record, one Super Bowl

Mike is one of my all-time favorite people in the NFL, in large part because I can still remember the day I clipped his picture out of the BYU media guide and glued it to a white piece of paper for Coach Walsh to review. It was 1986, and Paul Hackett had just left to go the Cowboys. Hackett coached quarterbacks and wide receivers for the 49ers, and Coach Walsh wanted to split the positions, hiring someone for quarterbacks and someone else for wide receivers. Eventually, Holmgren became the quarterbacks coach and his career took off, becoming head coach in Green Bay in 1992.

Mike brings a demanding presence to any organization. He has strong beliefs in how he runs his version of the west coast offense. He may not change much of the basic concepts of the offense, but he still is able to achieve success. No matter who hires Holmgren next season, the offense will look the same, but will run effectively. Much like Shanahan, his quarterback will perform at a very high level.

Holmgren will bring the 49ers’ infrastructure to any organization that hires him. He will want control over the personnel, but what matters most is for the personnel man to know exactly what Holmgren wants in each player. This whole control concept has gotten out of control. Holmgren should have control over each player, but he needs a personnel man who can read his mind, knowing exactly what it takes to play for Mike.

And like Shanahan, Holmgren is hungry to coach again. He has a bad taste in his mouth from his last year with the injury-riddles Seahawks and doesn’t want to end his career on a sour note. I was very excited to learn that Holmgren made it clear he wants to be back in the game. He’s rested, revived and determine. Another hungry solder.

It's just something to discuss during these last few weeks before camp begins.

Superchop 7
07-15-2009, 12:52 PM
Can't wait till Mike gets a crack at the Broncos.

SoCalImport
07-15-2009, 01:09 PM
Can't wait till Mike gets a crack at the Broncos.

Because you want him to beat the Broncos? Weird for a Broncos fan.

I'd love to see Shanny get another shot at coaching an NFL team. I'd root for him too, as long as it wasn't against the broncos (or effecting them).
At this point I'm not convinced He's interested in coming back....we'll see.

dogfish
07-15-2009, 01:16 PM
Can't wait till Mike gets a crack at the Broncos.

yea, it'll be nice going against the worst defense in the league for a change. . . .

BroncoWave
07-15-2009, 01:21 PM
Can't wait till Mike gets a crack at the Broncos.

Me either, especially if his new team also makes him GM and he hires Slowick as his DC! If that's the case I hope Shanny gets a crack at us every single year!

Dirk
07-15-2009, 01:32 PM
I would love to see how Shanny would coach another team. I still think he will end up in Washington and not Dallas.

underrated29
07-15-2009, 01:32 PM
Not me man...

As much as i dislike Oakland. And as much as they are a disgrace to the NFL.

Slowick is even worse. I do not want to see him in the NFL anywhere, ever again. Even if it means we can slice through his defense and put up 50 pts with our eyes closed.

The NFL itself means more to me than the broncos crushing him. Its one of those things that you would not even want your worst enemies to have.


Slowick is that bad.

rationalfan
07-15-2009, 01:52 PM
This quote is why, as much as it needed to be done, I still have a sick feeling about the Shanahan firing:

"Someone I respect greatly in the NFL once told me, 'If Mike Shanahan ever had the right personnel man to help him, he would win Super Bowls every year.' "

When motivated (mostly, in the later years, when he faced coaches he respected - Bellicheck, Fischer, Cowher) he drew up game plans that seemed unbeatable. It's just that there were so many times he seemed to look past an opponent (uh, Oakland in Denver last year) with a recycled game plan that was easy to see through.

Most people reference Shanahan's poor defenses, but I still maintain his inconsistent killer instinct in the last four-five years was just as responsible for mediocre seasons.

BroncoWave
07-15-2009, 01:52 PM
Not me man...

As much as i dislike Oakland. And as much as they are a disgrace to the NFL.

Slowick is even worse. I do not want to see him in the NFL anywhere, ever again. Even if it means we can slice through his defense and put up 50 pts with our eyes closed.

The NFL itself means more to me than the broncos crushing him. Its one of those things that you would not even want your worst enemies to have.


Slowick is that bad.

I just can't buy into that school of though. I'm a win at all costs kind of guy. If it means Slowick being in the NFL and getting to face his D once or twice a year, then I would be more than happy! Hell I'd be happy with Denver playing all 16 games against him if it were possible.

OrangeHoof
07-15-2009, 03:11 PM
Shanahan is a fantastic offensive coach (except when protecting late leads) and a below-average defensive coach. Even in the Super Bowl years, the defense wasn't all that special.

What would be scary is if one owner could pair Shanahan with a defensive wiz like Cowher or Belichick, somehow feed both enough to keep their egos in check and tell them to stick to their own side of the ball. Perhaps it could never work, but if you could get both to accept their limitations and simply coach to their strengths, you could have a true dynasty.

dogfish
07-15-2009, 03:28 PM
actually, some of the league's very best recent defensive minds have been mostly content to work as coordinators. . . monte kiffin and jim johnson, and even dick lebeau was only a head coach for a short time. . .

Dean
07-15-2009, 04:31 PM
I could definitely be wrong, Dog, but I don't see Mike Shanahan as a coordinator. I can see him possibly having less control as a GM but with Mike what you see is what you get.

He will attempt to fix what he sees as being broke the last three years. Other than that IMO, he is a head coach and has at least an equal say in personnel or he will stay retired. In fact I also think that he will take more control in game planning than he has recently had.

gnomeflinger
07-15-2009, 04:38 PM
Mike Holmgren has been the best thing to happen to the Seahawks in the past (at least) 10 years.

dogfish
07-15-2009, 05:09 PM
I could definitely be wrong, Dog, but I don't see Mike Shanahan as a coordinator. I can see him possibly having less control as a GM but with Mike what you see is what you get.

He will attempt to fix what he sees as being broke the last three years. Other than that IMO, he is a head coach and has at least an equal say in personnel or he will stay retired. In fact I also think that he will take more control in game planning than he has recently had.

you're absolutely right, and i didn't mean to suggest that shanahan would ever work as a coordinator again. . .

i was referring to orange hoof's post:


What would be scary is if one owner could pair Shanahan with a defensive wiz like Cowher or Belichick, somehow feed both enough to keep their egos in check and tell them to stick to their own side of the ball.

what i meant was that you wouldn't necessarily need to get one of the other top head coaches to take a demotion and co-exist with a guy like shanahan (or demote shanahan to OC), because some of the best defensive minds in recent years have been career DCs, not head coaches. . .

Fan in Exile
07-15-2009, 05:24 PM
That line was one of the main reasons I went to Denver to see if I could assist him.

I really couldn't get past this line. I mean seriously he didn't even get paid to be with the Bronco's if anyone was getting helped out it wasn't Shanny.

Simple Jaded
07-15-2009, 07:38 PM
Too bad Lombardi can't come assist McDaniels.......

Lonestar
07-15-2009, 08:03 PM
Too bad Lombardi can't come assist McDaniels.......


vince? Pssssst he is dead..


BTW we got Nolan.. instead..

Shazam!
07-15-2009, 08:20 PM
He brought the then 'NFC style' team into Denver, when the NFC dominated the Super Bowls against AFC teams. He saw firsthand what made teams win in the NFC, going against Dallas in SF and winning there.

Shanahan is a glorifed offensive coordinator who built Championship teams with one of, or the, greatest QBs of all time.

Lonestar
07-15-2009, 08:27 PM
He brought the then 'NFC style' team into Denver. He saw firsthand what made teams win in the NFC, going against Dallas in SF and winning there.

Shanahan is a glorifed offensive coordinator who built Championship teams with one of, or the, greatest QBs of all time.

he fell into deep DO DO and came out smell of roses

He had 4 HOF players on the team when he came to town.. John, ZIM, Rod, Sharpe and then DAFTED TD in the 6th.. (all on Offense) got lucky in Free agency as tit was just getting into gear brought in several over the hill players to fill out the holes and called in macaroni..

when the talent retired he held on to win some games but they were never convincing wins.. Like before..

find him a team with 4-5 HOF palyers on Offense and he will win alot of games till they retire..

Shazam!
07-15-2009, 08:38 PM
he fell into deep DO DO and came out smell of roses

He had 4 HOF players on the team when he came to town.. John, ZIM, Rod, Sharpe and then DAFTED TD in the 6th.. (all on Offense) got lucky in Free agency as tit was just getting into gear brought in several over the hill players to fill out the holes and called in macaroni..

when the talent retired he held on to win some games but they were never convincing wins.. Like before..

find him a team with 4-5 HOF palyers on Offense and he will win alot of games till they retire..

Atwater, a young Nalen... Anthony Miller at the time was at least a #2 WR on any team.

Pieces were in place, and similarly the last Coach was fired for making the defense into a bottom feeder. I never thought I'd see a worse Denver defense in my lifetime. Boy, was I wrong.

Lonestar
07-15-2009, 08:44 PM
Atwater, a young Nalen... Anthony Miller at the time was at least a #2 WR on any team.

Pieces were in place, and similarly the last Coach was fired for making the defense into a bottom feeder. I never thought I'd see a worse Denver defense in my lifetime. Boy, was I wrong.



Yes I forgot Atwater and was thinking about adding nails to the lists I think we had Dennis Smith at the time he came on board but IIRC he retired just before the super bowls.. Miller was a FA IIRC but I was in the midst of moving from LA when all of this was going on so did not follow every move as close as I would have liked to..

Shazam!
07-15-2009, 09:15 PM
Yes I forgot Atwater and was thinking about adding nails to the lists I think we had Dennis Smith at the time he came on board but IIRC he retired just before the super bowls.. Miller was a FA IIRC but I was in the midst of moving from LA when all of this was going on so did not follow every move as close as I would have liked to..

I believe Smith retired in 95' and Tyrone Braxton was one of the few players to be on the roster following the XXIV loss. Miller came from SD, I think...

SoCalImport
07-15-2009, 09:18 PM
I believe Smith retired in 95' and Tyrone Braxton was one of the few players to be on the roster following the XXIV loss. Miller came from SD, I think...

Rey Crockett was a pretty nice corner.

Shazam!
07-15-2009, 09:30 PM
Forgot about him... A Wade Phillips acquisition.

NameUsedBefore
07-15-2009, 10:03 PM
Eh, I wouldn't downplay Shanahan's capabilities. Yeah, he had some HoF talent and won Superbowls. That's what it takes.

But Shanahan is easily one of the best coaches in the league. I've seen too many games where we had an average offense and still managed to smoke the shit out of the league's best. I, for one, have never really felt the Broncos were really that good of a team after 2005 -- largely due to Shanahan's own personnel decisions -- but they still played some solid ball anyway.

Once Shanahan got Cutler I knew he finally found his man and I would have easily bet serious money on the Broncos getting a Lombardi within a few years. Clady? Oh boy. Marshall and Royal? It was looking pretty certain to me. Cobble together some kind of defense and let the offense get another year or two under their belts and things would be balling.

Instead Shanahan got fired and Cutler got shipped. It's like someone hit the damn reset button just as some light appeared at the end of the tunnel.

I, for one, hope Shanahan coaches in the NFC. I get the "don't let the door hit you" mindset, but for clear minds it's fairly obvious that the two men this organization cut loose are high-end talents and I would prefer them loose far away.

dogfish
07-15-2009, 10:59 PM
Eh, I wouldn't downplay Shanahan's capabilities.


you wouldn't, but JR might. . . . :laugh:


shoulda known it wouldn't take him long to find this thread, dean. . . .

Dean
07-16-2009, 12:14 AM
IMO if you want a true perspective you have to look farther than just the last two years which were injury riddled by the way. In Mike's tour of duty with the Broncos his teams compiled 138 won against 86 lost. That is a winning percentage of 61.5%. I believe that is the second highest of any active coach. That ain't chopped liver.

Lonestar
07-16-2009, 12:54 AM
IMO if you want a true perspective you have to look farther than just the last two years which were injury riddled by the way. In Mike's tour of duty with the Broncos his teams compiled 138 won against 86 lost. That is a winning percentage of 61.5%. I believe that is the second highest of any active coach. That ain't chopped liver.


he is a great OC one of the best I have seen.. but beyond that he IMHO failed miserably.. he made and almost unstoppable O even with not great talent.. he won a lot of games with smoke and mirrors and on the toe of Jason Elam..

But when the opponent was not a great one we oft em lost or won by the skin of our teeth..

Not many blown them away games or we know we can coast until we need to open it up times after the HOF talent left..

and that is not saying it was all HOFers just that we rarely blew them away after that and most games we hung on to win..


also remember that many of those years we were in the AFCW where SAN drafted in the top 5 2-3 years and OAK other than a couple of years when Gruden was there has stunk it up and then there is KC which was an auto split on the schedule.. that was 3-5 wins a year that had we been in the same division as NE/INDY/JAX we would not have had..


Sorry but mike was great offensive mind I will attest to that but not a GM, and had zero interest in D other than to field a top ten either run or pass D but never expended the draft choice for both.. was OK with retreads on D.. bend but do not break..


Great HCs tend consistently to do it on D and have an OK to good O.. and special teams well I think we can all say FAIL on that one..

Chica_Ang
07-16-2009, 01:12 AM
This quote is why, as much as it needed to be done, I still have a sick feeling about the Shanahan firing:

"Someone I respect greatly in the NFL once told me, 'If Mike Shanahan ever had the right personnel man to help him, he would win Super Bowls every year.' "

Well, I agree to a point, but he had the ultimate power to decide and honestly, he might have been getting input and advice he chose not to use.


When motivated (mostly, in the later years, when he faced coaches he respected - Bellicheck, Fischer, Cowher) he drew up game plans that seemed unbeatable. It's just that there were so many times he seemed to look past an opponent (uh, Oakland in Denver last year) with a recycled game plan that was easy to see through.

Most people reference Shanahan's poor defenses, but I still maintain his inconsistent killer instinct in the last four-five years was just as responsible for mediocre seasons.

I think team personality issues and tension added to this. Too many players had their own interests ahead of the team, and no matter how good a coach is, if the players aren't together, they aren't going to play to win. There were many factors last year. Honestly, I'm glad Bowlen cleaned house, even though I hugely respect Mike and all he did for the franchise.

Shazam!
07-16-2009, 01:22 AM
He just should've resigned after Elway left.

"My job is done here. We accomplished what we set out to do. This team is better off now than when I first came here."

Enter Kubes.

Lonestar
07-16-2009, 01:36 AM
Well, I agree to a point, but he had the ultimate power to decide and honestly, he might have been getting input and advice he chose not to use.



I think team personality issues and tension added to this. Too many players had their own interests ahead of the team, and no matter how good a coach is, if the players aren't together, they aren't going to play to win. There were many factors last year. Honestly, I'm glad Bowlen cleaned house, even though I hugely respect Mike and all he did for the franchise.

I strongly believe that this was the case this past year building up stats to justify bonuses and a new contract this coming year.. and I really also believe that mike did not see a need to slow it down.. as In his own heart he knew that he had to produce this year or changes were going to be made..

I'll bet that Pat let him know if they did not win, they would be making changes IE a new DC that Pat and a new GM would pick..

but that is all history now..

Dirk
07-16-2009, 05:57 AM
He just should've resigned after Elway left.

"My job is done here. We accomplished what we set out to do. This team is better off now than when I first came here."

Enter Kubes.

I still think Shanny is one of the best HCs the league has ever seen. His problem was the front office piece of his job. If he had not had control over that piece and Denver had a legit GM...Shanny would still be in Denver.

As far as step aside for Kubes?...Yeah baby, I would have been happy with that.

sneakers
07-16-2009, 06:45 AM
Mike Holmgren:

http://gcwatercooler.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/walrus2.jpg

Dean
07-16-2009, 08:08 AM
He just should've resigned after Elway left.

"My job is done here. We accomplished what we set out to do. This team is better off now than when I first came here."

Enter Kubes.

Is this what you honestly believe? Does this pertain to all people or just to Shanahan?

Your concept raises so many questions in my mind. When the team won the first Super Bowl, should he have resigned? Should he have waited until TD was hurt? Does this concept of quitting when you are at the pinnacle of your career carry over to everyone else? If so most people would retire or change jobs when they excel- much before retirement age.

Surely, when you do as well as you can on a task, you quit doing it. . . or maybe that is unrealistic.

Shazam!
07-16-2009, 10:38 AM
Is this what you honestly believe? Does this pertain to all people or just to Shanahan?

Your concept raises so many questions in my mind. When the team won the first Super Bowl, should he have resigned? Should he have waited until TD was hurt? Does this concept of quitting when you are at the pinnacle of your career carry over to everyone else? If so most people would retire or change jobs when they excel- much before retirement age.

Surely, when you do as well as you can on a task, you quit doing it. . . or maybe that is unrealistic.

No. He wouldn't have 'quit', he completed what he was hired to do. Win two Super Bowls. An NFL Coach isn't a regular job.

Top coaches don't have a lifetime gig. Nowadays they're like architects or sculptures. They start the project, turn it into a glorious piece, then move onto the next project.

When Elway retired, he thought he could win without him here, by plugging up holes and trying to keep the Elway-less team as intact as he could. It failed.

Unless he blew it up from the beginning and started from scratch, that'd be a different story. But Shanahan, in his whole career, has never had to do that. That's the real measure. I'd love to see him take over a 2 or 3 win club that needs a complete facelift. Then we'd see what kind of Coach the mastermind really is.

Ravage!!!
07-16-2009, 10:49 AM
He brought the then 'NFC style' team into Denver, when the NFC dominated the Super Bowls against AFC teams. He saw firsthand what made teams win in the NFC, going against Dallas in SF and winning there.

Shanahan is a glorifed offensive coordinator who built Championship teams with one of, or the, greatest QBs of all time.

yeah.. so did Noll, Walsh, Shula, Belicheck, Landry, and 100% Dungy

GEM
07-16-2009, 11:16 AM
Can't wait till Mike gets a crack at the Broncos.


Just a question here.....are you a Broncos fan or a Shanny fan? :confused:

Shazam!
07-16-2009, 11:25 AM
Noll, Walsh, and Landry built their teams from the ground up and drafted the many stars, something Shanahan has never had to do.

Shula was considered a failure in Baltimore.

Bellicheck promised a playoff team in Cleveland in 4 years and delivered in 3, and he got a raw deal by Modell. He drafted Brady and responsible for building the best teams of the decade.

Dungy never won a championship but he rebranded a laughing stock Bucs team into yearly contenders.

Nice try though, you get an A for Effort... or an A for Average.

OrangeHoof
07-16-2009, 12:04 PM
No. He wouldn't have 'quit', he completed what he was hired to do. Win two Super Bowls.

By that logic, he should have quit after the first Super Bowl. He did what he was hired to do so he should have walked then. By that thinking, Belichick should have quit after he won his first Super Bowl and Randy Tomlin should be quitting now.

No enjoying your championship, no trying to get even better than last year's championship, no becoming a "local legend". Nah. Time to move on, kemosabe. My work here is done.

I guess you'd quit your job as soon as you made CEO...

Dean
07-16-2009, 12:09 PM
No. He wouldn't have 'quit', he completed what he was hired to do. Win two Super Bowls. An NFL Coach isn't a regular job.

If you don't finish your present contract you are either fired or you quit. He was hired to win two Super Bowls but not more? An NFL coach is not a regular job? This is ridiculous.


Top coaches don't have a lifetime gig. Nowadays they're like architects or sculptures. They start the project, turn it into a glorious piece, then move onto the next project.

Why hasn't Bellicheck moved on to a new gig? Was he hired to win 4 Super Bowls so his job isn't done until then? The job is not a commision job. When a coach wins a championship the owner, the team, and the fans want him to stay not to quit.


When Elway retired, he thought he could win without him here, by plugging up holes and trying to keep the Elway-less team as intact as he could. It failed.

Yes, it didn't work out as we as fans and I would imagine the he would have hoped for better. However, to not make an attempt because you might fail is not how I would choose to live my life nor do I have respect for those who do.


Unless he blew it up from the beginning and started from scratch, that'd be a different story. But Shanahan, in his whole career, has never had to do that. That's the real measure. I'd love to see him take over a 2 or 3 win club that needs a complete facelift. Then we'd see what kind of Coach the mastermind really is.

I wonder what you would have been saying if he had actually "blew it up" and done what you propose? Maybe you actually feel that way but I have my doubts.

dogfish
07-16-2009, 12:33 PM
Dungy never won a championship


:confused:




http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1797/sf20090114a1a.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/i/sf20090114a1a.jpg/)

Chica_Ang
07-16-2009, 06:00 PM
I strongly believe that this was the case this past year building up stats to justify bonuses and a new contract this coming year.. and I really also believe that mike did not see a need to slow it down.. as In his own heart he knew that he had to produce this year or changes were going to be made..

I'll bet that Pat let him know if they did not win, they would be making changes IE a new DC that Pat and a new GM would pick..

Good point.

Let's carry on, shall we? :beer:

Dean
07-16-2009, 08:37 PM
I strongly believe that this was the case this past year building up stats to justify bonuses and a new contract this coming year.. and I really also believe that mike did not see a need to slow it down.. as In his own heart he knew that he had to produce this year or changes were going to be made..

I'll bet that Pat let him know if they did not win, they would be making changes IE a new DC that Pat and a new GM would pick..

but that is all history now..

I know that you said you believed that is what happened. Do you have any reason for that belief?

I am not trying to put you on the defensive but I have had no indication of any of that occuring. If there is any justification for the bolded part I for one would be interested in seeing it.

Shazam!
07-16-2009, 09:29 PM
:confused:

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1797/sf20090114a1a.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/i/sf20090114a1a.jpg/)

I meant going into Indy from Tampa. I thought that was obvious, so my mistake for not being clearer. Dungy was a hot commodity that knew how to build a contender and did so without a top QB. That's the point. Shanahan never had to build a team from scratch and take over a trainwreck.

Shazam!
07-16-2009, 09:33 PM
If you don't finish your present contract you are either fired or you quit. He was hired to win two Super Bowls but not more? An NFL coach is not a regular job? This is ridiculous.

The Elway factor, and if Shanahan thought the Broncos would've been A-OK without him and he was indeed behind all the Broncos greatness, he was smoking serious crack.

And no, an NFL Head Coach is not a regular job.


Why hasn't Bellicheck moved on to a new gig? Was he hired to win 4 Super Bowls so his job isn't done until then? The job is not a commision job. When a coach wins a championship the owner, the team, and the fans want him to stay not to quit.

Bellichick will go down as one of the greatest Coaches of all time. He keeps winning. Shanahan and his contemporaries haven't had the streak he has. He is the exception.


Yes, it didn't work out as we as fans and I would imagine the he would have hoped for better. However, to not make an attempt because you might fail is not how I would choose to live my life nor do I have respect for those who do.

His stock would've been through the roof if he was available in 99 and could've went anywhere he wanted. Teams with secure Coaches would've been fired to get him. Again, NFL Coaches are not regular jobs.


I wonder what you would have been saying if he had actually "blew it up" and done what you propose? Maybe you actually feel that way but I have my doubts.

After winning two Championships, and one of the best QBs of all time retiring, it wouldn't have bothered me one bit. Rebuilding is the realistic thing to do.

Broncos fans waited years and suffered humiliating defeats to see what we saw in 96-99 (yes, 96 too) and I could deal with it.

If they traded everyone and made a few Walker/Cowboys deals for picks, after the magic we experienced most fans wouldn't have been in a position to complain.

We may never see a Broncos team that good again.

Overtime
07-17-2009, 02:31 PM
I would love to see how Shanny would coach another team. I still think he will end up in Washington and not Dallas.

what does Washington have that even remotely resembles that would make Shanahan want to coach in Washington?

no draft picks, no QB, no defense, they have made the playoffs like once in the last 9 years. they are a disorganized, underachieving bunch.

sorry but I don't see Shanahan coaching in Washington, especially with Daniel Snyder there. The fit is not right.

Dallas? Most definitely. San Diego? yep. Bengals? Possibly, Palmer has a decent arm and with the "proper" guidance, may be able to turn the corner. Green Bay? yes (especially if McCarthy has a bad season). Minnesota? (with Childress on the hot seat?) yes. Carolina? definitely. Buffalo? eh maybe...but TO and Trent Edwards would be gone in a heartbeat.

Dean
07-17-2009, 02:40 PM
The Elway factor, and if Shanahan thought the Broncos would've been A-OK without him and he was indeed behind all the Broncos greatness, he was smoking serious crack.

If Elway was the only reason that we won Super Bowls, why didn't he win them the previous times he was there?



And no, an NFL Head Coach is not a regular job.

You keep saying that but you don't explain how it is not a regular job. Please illuminate how it is not a job.



Bellichick will go down as one of the greatest Coaches of all time. He keeps winning. Shanahan and his contemporaries haven't had the streak he has. He is the exception.


P.S.- Since this thread seems to have become a Mike Shanahan thread, I wonder if I can get any help from the Denverites. I read on another board that on 103.5 "The Fox" there was a Shanahan interview. However, the poster did not tell what was said. I would appreciate it if anyone could clue me in.

He has won alot of games but so have other coaches. Should they have quit when they won Super Bowls?



His stock would've been through the roof if he was available in 99 and could've went anywhere he wanted. Teams with secure Coaches would've been fired to get him. Again, NFL Coaches are not regular jobs.

If he was good enough that everyone else wanted him as you say, why should he not stay to fulfill his contract?



After winning two Championships, and one of the best QBs of all time retiring, it wouldn't have bothered me one bit. Rebuilding is the realistic thing to do.

You obviously believe that Elway was the one and only reason for the two Super Bowl wins. I disagree and previous Super Bowl losses indicate there was more at play than just Elway.



Broncos fans waited years and suffered humiliating defeats to see what we saw in 96-99 (yes, 96 too) and I could deal with it.

If they traded everyone and made a few Walker/Cowboys deals for picks, after the magic we experienced most fans wouldn't have been in a position to complain.

Do you now or did you then consider that as even a possibility? I don't. That was a once in a lifetime mistake but you hope(d) for multiple repeats of that occurring.



We may never see a Broncos team that good again.

Maybe or maybe not but the whole process is an attempt to do exactly that.



P.S.- I heard that Mike Shanahan gave an interview on 103.5 "The Fox" this morning. However, no mention was made of what was said. I would appreciate if any Denverites out there that heard the broadcast would tell me what was said.

Shazam!
07-17-2009, 06:13 PM
If Elway was the only reason that we won Super Bowls, why didn't he win them the previous times he was there?

I went through this already. Shanahan had installed a then NFC style team, tough OL, power running game, and aggressive defense.

If Elway wasn't a factor, then the defending Champions in 99' wouldn't have finished 6-10.


You keep saying that but you don't explain how it is not a regular job. Please illuminate how it is not a job.

You think being an NFL Coach is the same as your job? Yeah, ok. It's one of the toughest jobs in sports, as QB is one of the most important positions in sports. It's 24/7, almost 18 hours a day of micromanagement. These guys control every aspect of the team, especially the guys who control everyting, like Shanahan did.


He has won alot of games but so have other coaches. Should they have quit when they won Super Bowls?

John Elway's retirement was the first time a QB retired after winning the Super Bowl.


If he was good enough that everyone else wanted him as you say, why should he not stay to fulfill his contract?

The circumstance changed. John Elway. He was brought in to win a Championship. Job done.


You obviously believe that Elway was the one and only reason for the two Super Bowl wins. I disagree and previous Super Bowl losses indicate there was more at play than just Elway.

I guess Elway had nothing to do with Denver winning then because they got their ass kicked 3 times. He sucked then by your theory.


Do you now or did you then consider that as even a possibility? I don't. That was a once in a lifetime mistake but you hope(d) for multiple repeats of that occurring.

I don't know what mistake you speak of.


Maybe or maybe not but the whole process is an attempt to do exactly that.

It took Denver over 30 years to be a legendary team. It could take another 30 to see them that good. Being a Super Bowl winner is one thing, but the 98 Broncos are one of the best teams of all time. Even if they win a Championship again, seeing a team as dominant, balanced, and explosive may never happen again.

EMB6903
07-17-2009, 06:50 PM
what does Washington have that even remotely resembles that would make Shanahan want to coach in Washington?

no draft picks, no QB, no defense, they have made the playoffs like once in the last 9 years. they are a disorganized, underachieving bunch.

sorry but I don't see Shanahan coaching in Washington, especially with Daniel Snyder there. The fit is not right.

Dallas? Most definitely. San Diego? yep. Bengals? Possibly, Palmer has a decent arm and with the "proper" guidance, may be able to turn the corner. Green Bay? yes (especially if McCarthy has a bad season). Minnesota? (with Childress on the hot seat?) yes. Carolina? definitely. Buffalo? eh maybe...but TO and Trent Edwards would be gone in a heartbeat.

Easy... Shanahan knows if he goes to Washington he has an owner that will dish out what ever money it takes to compete while letting Shanahan run the entire organization... that along with the history and success the teams had in this league... Redskins head coaching job is as big as any gig in this league.

LordTrychon
07-17-2009, 07:13 PM
I went through this already. Shanahan had installed a then NFC style team, tough OL, power running game, and aggressive defense.

If Elway wasn't a factor, then the defending Champions in 99' wouldn't have finished 6-10.




Not saying Elway wasn't a factor... but to be fair... we lost three team captains, were starting new QB who'd never played, and our star RB went down to a major injury, never to recover again.

Shazam!
07-17-2009, 09:09 PM
Not saying Elway wasn't a factor... but to be fair... we lost three team captains, were starting new QB who'd never played, and our star RB went down to a major injury, never to recover again.

Would they have gone 6-10 if Elway was playing, even if he wasn't 100%? Absoultely not.

NameUsedBefore
07-17-2009, 09:51 PM
Does Denver, with those players, win the two Superbowls without Shanahan?

And after the slew of injuries, retirements etc., does Denver even get to 6-10 in 1999 without Shanahan?

Lonestar
07-17-2009, 10:11 PM
Does Denver, with those players, win the two Superbowls without Shanahan?

And after the slew of injuries, retirements etc., does Denver even get to 6-10 in 1999 without Shanahan?

probably not win without him, this team needed a kick start then.

just like it did this time..

Shazam!
07-17-2009, 10:29 PM
probably not win without him, this team needed a kick start then.

just like it did this time..

The similarities between now and '94 are actually amazing.

Lonestar
07-17-2009, 10:44 PM
The similarities between now and '94 are actually amazing.



good coaches both time just not good enough.. to get them there with mere mortals.


BTW I heard an interview today saying last year holmgren mailed it in on his farewell tour..

They said the Hawks are going to be a team to be reckoned with as as many as 10 players will be coming back from injury, have a soft schedule and with new coaching in there they are going surprise alot of teams..

Makes sense to me.. not going to the super bowl but should be much better..

Dean
07-20-2009, 07:06 AM
If anyone is interested, here is the most recent interview of Shanahan.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_12868958?source=rss

lex
07-20-2009, 10:23 AM
I can see Shanahan going to Carolina or even Jacksonville. Also, Buffalo might have an opening if it doesnt go well this year.

I could also see him going to the university of florida if Meyer moves on...but that doesnt seem so likely at the moment. Shanahan is good friends with Foley, UFs AD, and has coached there in the past.

If the Bears dont do well, youll here that thrown around but Chicago is too top heavy. Chicago would mean going from having almost no bosses in Denver to 3 in Chicago...and stingy owners at that.

Lonestar
07-20-2009, 07:30 PM
Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:59 pm EDT


By Chris Chase


Mike Shanahan is about to find out that silence is golden. The former Denver Broncos coach will earn $7 million next season provided he keeps his mouth shut about the team that fired him in December.

When owner Pat Bowlen fired his long-time coach after the end of last season, Shanahan still had two years and $14 million left on his contract. As long as he doesn't badmouth the Broncos (and doesn't take another coaching gig), Shanahan will continue to be the highest paid coach in the NFL.

Woody Paige describes the interesting clause in a piece on Shanahan that appeared in Sunday's Denver Post:

Mike talked publicly Saturday for the first time with anyone in the media since his tearful goodbye on New Year's Eve.

Did he talk about his replacement, Josh McDaniels? Did he talk about the trade of Jay Cutler(notes)? Did he talk about Brandon Marshall(notes)? Did he talk about owner Pat Bowlen?

No.

Shanahan has a clause in his contract that prevents him from saying practically anything about the Broncos. He will receive $7 million this season for not coaching and not ripping the Broncos.

As the article points out, Shanahan isn't exactly the bridge burning type, so keeping his mouth shut about the Broncos shouldn't be too hard, particularly with $7 million on the line. But it'd be interesting to know what type of statement would constitute a breach of contract.

Would it prevent him from working in television, where he might have to objectively give an opinion on the team? Could he give an interview where he sarcastically says, "yeah, I think Josh McDaniels is AWESOME" and then wink with a wry smile? Can he anonymously comment here at Shutdown Corner about how Kyle Orton(notes) makes Jake Plummer(notes) look like John Elway?

It's probably best for Shanahan to say nothing at all, lest something get misconstrued. But, then again, Shanahan is nothing if not stubborn.

Later in the Woody Paige-penned piece (don't let the writer scare you away, it's quite good), it's mentioned that Shanahan "privately" told a friend that he thinks the Jay Cutler trade was a mistake. Since that was a second-hand conversation getting recounted, I can't imagine it will be a problem. But if Shanahan continues to make statements like that, he might soon find out that you can't, indeed, get money for nothing.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/If-Mike-Shanahan-stays-quiet-he-ll-get-7-milli?urn=nfl,177594