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NightTrainLayne
07-08-2009, 10:33 AM
It's slow. ..it's the off-season, so why not fire up an argument outside of Football.

GMoney made a tremendous post (as usual) here:

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=687550&postcount=7

Go read it and give him a high five. I have agreed with his logic since questions about Armstrong first came out.

Along those same lines, I think that Barry Bonds should be recognized as the best of the best whether or not he used steroids (it's quite obvious he has).

However, Lance is beloved, maybe simply because we still question the validity of the claims, and Barry is reviled. . .maybe simply becuase we KNOW that he told us some bald-faced lies.

But the logic to me is incredibly similar. Barry Bonds knew he was the best. He KNEW that no-one on the face of the earth had more talent for hitting a baseball than he did. But these two yokels, Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa were using, and getting away with it, and making history.

Barry Bonds no doubt looked at the situation and said to himself, "I'm better than those guys! If I was doing that I would SMASH the records their setting." And it didn't take him long to succumb to that temptation. Not surprisingly, it worked. Barry proved himself as having the most talent when he was taking the same drugs as the other guys.

If it were to come out that Lance cheated too, I would feel the same way. If everyone is doing it, then the playing field is level. I hope that somehow Lance is vindicated. But proving a negative is nearly impossible, and as such many will always have doubts.

Is it just because Lance seems like such a nice guy in his interviews, vs. Barry coming off as a jerk? If Barry were more approachable and friendly, would we be more forgiving?

Is it because Lance embodies America overseas? Do we support him more because we identify with him in an us vs. the world showdown?

So often, I hear G's sentiments expressed in support of Lance and possible steroid use, but very rarely in support of Barry and his known situation.

G_Money
07-08-2009, 11:20 AM
I just hate Barry as a person. His cheating at the game is a far lesser crime than being one of the biggest jackasses to ever walk the earth.

A-Rod and Barry have always had the incredible talent. When they added the drugs on top of the talent they became world-beaters. And they were just following the trend, doing what they felt they had to in order to maintain their rightful place at the top of the heap that their sheer talent should have granted them in a world with no PEDs.

Which is why I have so much respect for Ken Griffey Jr, because Junior had his chance to take the drugs that would enable him to recover from his injuries and regain his form as the best player of his generation and destroy the record books himself...and as far as I can tell he didn't do it. He let the steroid boys like Barry and A-Rod pass him, and stayed true.

"I have passed the test. I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."

I don't blame Boromir for trying to seize the ring. But I respect those who didn't.

I do feel sorry for those who are passed in the record books and overlooked because they didn't cheat. If Lance was cheating too, then somebody out there should have won one of his seven. Maybe it wouldn't have been a fellow cheater, but that guy is not recognized as a champion now. Glory was lost, there, if that were the case.

In baseball terms, were great hitters like Edgar Martinez clean? If he was clean, AND put up the numbers he did that matched the steroid-skewed numbers of his era...you wonder what he would have looked like against the late 70s/early 80s...or now.

Because in the 90s his number blend in with the upper echelon (he, Bagwell and Thomas were the best RH hitters of their time, especially if Big Mac was a cheater), but in another era he would have been far and away the most astoundingly complete batter around. He makes Jim Rice look like a second rate player.

But because he was a DH, and there's that bias among NL writers, and because he was "just" in the dialogue for the best RH hitter of his era instead of CLEARLY being it...if he's clean, is he being robbed of his HOF spot?

Drugs in the sport brought more money to the players. Fans came back, superhuman things were done, revenue went up, and players made money. Drugs HELPED the little guy make more for being the little guy. And if some of the little guys had to take drugs to hang on in the league and make money, so be it.

I like sports. I get invested in sports. But records are for history. Players play for money, and hopefully for a love of the game. But mostly for money. It's a job.

So our perspective is different than theirs. I can't really feel too sorry for the great athlete who makes millions, but could have made more millions without some drug-cheat in their way.

The more guys cheat, the more the numbers should just be looked at as the numbers. The only guys that hurts are the clean guys, and the further we get into this, the less clean mega-stars we see.

Which means the guys who were probably clean get more respect from me, but sadly as the playing field levels over time, and more and more guys get shown to be coloring outside the lines, the harder it gets to see who the clean guys were and whether they were indeed robbed of the recognition they were due.

Though even with his late-career steadiness that would speak to enhancement, I still cling to my belief that Gar was a clean player. If he wasn't, he still helped save baseball in Seattle, so I have no complaints either way. *laughs*

And in the end, that's what it comes down to for me. Steroids or not, PEDs or not, we ARE watching the best do what they do. You try to keep the field level for everyone, and punish the guys who cheat, but I don't harp on the cheating. It's not natural to run a 4.2 40 but I see guys do it in the combine. It's not natural to bench 225 pounds 40 times, but I see guys do that too.

And I WANT to see it.

I WANT to see superhuman efforts. I see mere mortality when I play sports. I watch to see the best. At billiards, at golf, at football and baseball and cycling.

I want to see greatness, not failure.

And for what they charge me to see it in person now, I think I should get to shoot up my favorite players with the PEDs of their choosing before games, so they can win the Tour de France while pedaling with their hands or hit one-handed HRs out of the stadium.

We want the Greatest Show On Earth, and since the dawn of time we've been trying to see it. Sports are no different, and maybe it's time to realize that and accept it, and just enjoy them for what they are. As Barkley said, they are not role models. They're entertainers. It's all a circus, not that different than seeing the strongman and the bearded lady and the acrobats.

And thanks to his taking Clomid for his feminine health problems, we now know Manny is the bearded lady.

Life really has come full circle.

~G