Broncos Mailbag: Denver fans, was pain of McDaniels worth Manning?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Mike, with all the drama the Broncos have gone through since Mike Shanahan's firing, I think it's time to re-evaluate the Jay Cutler trade and the impact it's had on the makeup of this year's team. I feel we have a better chance to win a Super Bowl now (I'm optimistic about Peyton Manning's neck), than if we had held on to Cutler. But I'm not sure it was worth three years of pain and mediocrity. Was it?
--Nick, Richmond, Va.

You have mixed feelings and many thoughts, all in one mailbag-opening letter. To begin, the Broncos would not have gone through so much misery from the second half of 2009 through the early part of 2011 had Josh McDaniels not let his young male pride get in the way of his relationship with Jay Cutler.

This was a 26-year-old quarterback coming off a Pro Bowl season in his third season. McDaniels chose the Broncos ahead of other head coaching opportunities because of Cutler. Instead, it was two petulant children who couldn't get along. Only in Denver.

rest - http://www.denverpost.com/broncosmailbag/ci_21045661/broncos-mailbag-denver-fans-was-pain-mcdaniels-worth

[Ravage!!!]

we got Luckier than ANY team in the history of free-agency with Manning being available. The Cutler trade was STILL the dumbest move that could have been made for this franchise, and easily put this team back a long long time. Add in the stupidness of marshall.... its just doubles. To say that "this season" is a result of McDaniels douch-ery, is looking past the fact that we have to try and rebuild BECAUSE that moronic-dip-shit decided his ego was more important than talent. Absolutely, without a doubt, the biggest piece-o-crap to ever be associated with the Denver Broncos..... is Josh McDaniels.

[OrangeHoof]

I was watching the Chargers "Houchuli" game a few nights ago and it left me wishing we still had Cutler and Marshall. What fun it would have been watching those two light up scoreboards together before McDaniels came to town. Cutler still has 6-7 years on Manning so we could enjoy him a lot longer.

[Simple Jaded]

Peyton Manning is a far better QB than Jay Cutler, the Broncos made out like bandits. But McDaniels didn't make Manning possible, John Elway did. Having said that, I'd settle for Cutler if Doogie never happened.......

[OrangeFanatic]

It all depends on if Manning comes out, plays up to his old potential for a few years and takes us deep into the playoffs. Only time will tell.

[topscribe]

we got Luckier than ANY team in the history of free-agency with Manning being available. The Cutler trade was STILL the dumbest move that could have been made for this franchise, and easily put this team back a long long time. Add in the stupidness of marshall.... its just doubles. To say that "this season" is a result of McDaniels douch-ery, is looking past the fact that we have to try and rebuild BECAUSE that moronic-dip-shit decided his ego was more important than talent. Absolutely, without a doubt, the biggest piece-o-crap to ever be associated with the Denver Broncos..... is Josh McDaniels.
BTW, Rav, what do you think of Josh?
.

[Chef Zambini]

Absolutely, without a doubt, the biggest piece-o-crap to ever be associated with the Denver Broncos..... is Josh McDaniels.


on this we agree 100%

[Chef Zambini]

its bizarre rational to point to manning and say, gosh, if it wasnt for JMCD we never would have peyton.

ask someone in the springs who lost their home and have to rebuild t a similar question !
maybe they had a leaky roof or a kitchen they wanted to re-model, ask them if it was all worth it when they rebuild their home.
I give no glory to josh !
we have PM thanks to JE !
JMCD can live a miserable life and die a horrible death !

[Cugel]

"30 years of plague and darkness, and now, oh Lord, finally . . . a light!" -- Al Bundy

It's an interesting question. If Manning wins a SB, then was the fear and loathing, the angst and suffering that was Josh McDaniels worth while?

It's difficult to say yes to this, even though 2 years after the deluge here are certain inadvertent upsides to McMoron's utter incompetence.

For instance, the Jay Cutler trade meant that Manning could come here. The 4-12 record in 2010 meant that the Broncos were in position to draft Von Miller. On the other hand any sane GM would have drafted either Clay Matthews or Brian Orakpo instead of Knowshon Moreno in 2009. There would be a core of valuable 3rd and 4th year players in place here instead of a giant sucking wound from 2009 & 2010.

A sane GM wouldn't have thrown away all those draft picks, but a sane coach wouldn't have tried to trade Jay Cutler even up for Matt Cassel in the first place, so Denver wouldn't have had some of the picks McDaniels squandered on Moreno, Tebow, Alphonso Smith, etc., etc.

All in all it's hard to get over the daily suffering inflicted by McDaniels. I came closer to not giving a damn about the Broncos than ever before. If McDaniels had lasted another season, I would have stopped being a Broncos fan. I just couldn't take any more of his crap.

Even if Manning wins the SB I'm not going to forgive McMoron for anything. Ever. :coffee: (Bitter dead-ender who still hates McMoron with all the burning intensity of a million white hot suns).

[Ravage!!!]

Even if Manning wins the SB I'm not going to forgive McMoron for anything. Ever. (Bitter dead-ender who still hates McMoron with all the burning intensity of a million white hot suns).

absolutely not. If we could ever win the Super Bowl with Manning (or even go), there is NO WAY McDoosh had a single OUNCE of responsibility for that. We would have recouped, recharged, and rebuild DESPITE having to deal with the McDick fiasco.

Thats like "thanking the tornado" for the increase in jobs of rebuilding the homes that were destroyed by the tornado.

[NightTerror218]

Peyton Manning is a far better QB than Jay Cutler, the Broncos made out like bandits. But McDaniels didn't make Manning possible, John Elway did. Having said that, I'd settle for Cutler if Doogie never happened.......

The big different is that Culter is a pro bowl caliber QB, Manning is HOF. The difference is how long we could have had Culter for compared to Manning. We had a great offense before McDumbass came in. Our defense needed help. If we could have brought in a better DC minded coach we might have faired better in the long run. But right now we might be back to where we were but we have a QB with a couple years left in tank compared to Culter who stilll has many.

[Simple Jaded]

The big different is that Culter is a pro bowl caliber QB, Manning is HOF. The difference is how long we could have had Culter for compared to Manning. We had a great offense before McDumbass came in. Our defense needed help. If we could have brought in a better DC minded coach we might have faired better in the long run. But right now we might be back to where we were but we have a QB with a couple years left in tank compared to Culter who stilll has many.

Huge, huge fan of watching Jay Cutler here, l love watching him play QB, but he may never be as good as the QB "we might" get in Manning. You're assuming that Manning will just be a blip on the Broncos radar while I'm assuming that his injury history and durability still play a role in his longevity.

If I could go back and change it all l would but the Broncos made the best of a shitty situation, they stepped in a pile of shit and came out smelling like a rose.......

[NightTerror218]

Huge, huge fan of watching Jay Cutler here, l love watching him play QB, but he may never be as good as the QB "we might" get in Manning. You're assuming that Manning will just be a blip on the Broncos radar while I'm assuming that his injury history and durability still play a role in his longevity.

If I could go back and change it all l would but the Broncos made the best of a shitty situation, they stepped in a pile of shit and came out smelling like a rose.......

exatcly. I would rather have never traded cutler and gone through the humiliation of being one of the worst teams in the league and have to rebuild the defense and the offense. I could only imagine who we could have drafted on the defense side if we went straight for a defensive minded coach instead of McD. I think manning could bring us Super Bowl wins. But I also think if we had a better team with Cutler then the last 3 years.

[Mike]

Just the mention of his name makes me see red.

[NightTerror218]

I always think of the 2009 draft and who we should have drafted at #12

Brian Cushing
Clay Mathews
Brian Orakpo

[Dzone]

That son of a ***** should have been banned from the NFL.

[Simple Jaded]

I always think of the 2009 draft and who we should have drafted at #12

Brian Cushing
Clay Mathews
Brian OrakpoShoulda traded up for Raji.

And while I think the Broncos would have had better talent with all the 08 offense intact that does little to mask the epic incompetence and dysfunction of Josh McDaniels, not only as a GM but as a coach. Imo the Broncos finish with the same exact record under him regardless of the talent.

Which makes the thought of Raji/Orakpo, Iupati/Earl Thomas, Von Miller 3-year 1st round haul intriguing, had McDaniels never been given total control. The best thing you can say about the Josh McDaniels Error is that it was just short enough to make John Fox, John Elway and Von Miller possible.......

[Canmore]

Shoulda traded up for Raji.

And while I think the Broncos would have had better talent with all the 08 offense intact that does little to mask the obvious incompetence and dysfunction of Josh McDaniels, not only as a GM but as a coach. Imo the Broncos finish with the same exact record under him regardless of the talent.

Which makes the thought of Raji/Orakpo, Iupati/Earl Thomas, Von Miller 3-year 1st round haul intriguing. The best thing you can say about the Josh McDaniels Error is that it was just short enough to make John Fox, John Elway and Von Miller possible.......

I would say that is about the only positive thing you can say about Josh McDaniels, it was a short stay, but man it was painful. As exciting as Von Miller is, I could of done without him if we could have done without McDaniels. Someones sig who escapes me says McDaniels will go down as one of the most reviled personalities in Denver sports history. To me, he is number one. At least we did get Fox, Elway, Miller and Manning, but how painful was it?

[Simple Jaded]

Where would the Broncos D be if there were a GM with enough common sense to draft the likes of Raji, Orakpo, Matthews or Thomas?

Orakpo, Thomas and Miller is a killer core, a ProBowl caliber player at all 3 levels of Defense. And it's not as tho these are obscure sleepers, there were countless draftniks and common message board geeks singing these players' potential. The 08 offense, combined with Bailey, Doom, Orakpo, Dj, Miller and Earl Thomas on D with maybe some of the Tracy Porter's and McGahee's additions sprinkled in? This would be exactly what 99% of the NFL community/fans could have envisioned when Josh McDaniels was dealt the peach of a hand he got when he took over in 2009.

It's impossible to forgive stupidity of that magnitude. Joe Ellis can suck a F'n fart too.......

[Canmore]

Where would the Broncos D be if there were a GM with enough common sense to draft the likes of Raji, Orakpo, Matthews or Thomas?

Orakpo, Thomas and Miller is a killer core, a ProBowl caliber player at all 3 levels of Defense. And it's not as tho these are obscure sleepers, there were countless draftniks and common message board geeks singing these players' potential. The 08 offense, combined with Bailey, Doom, Orakpo, Dj, Miller and Earl Thomas on D with maybe some of the Tracy Porter's and McGahee's additions sprinkled in? This would be exactly what 99% of the NFL community/fans could have envisioned when Josh McDaniels was dealt the peach of a hand he got when he took over in 2009.

It's impossible to forgive stupidity of that magnitude. Joe Ellis can suck a F'n fart too.......

McDaniels took a peach and turned it into vinegar instead of wine. The Joe Ellis quote...lol.

[Cugel]

Of course McDaniels is the most reviled figure in Denver sports history. You could cite Dan O'Dowd and the Rockies owners, but nobody cares about the Rockies as much as the Broncos so it doesn't compare.

If the Nuggets were run into the ground most people would shrug. But, we take our Broncos seriously. Screw them up and we'll never forgive you McMoron you vicious plague rat! :mad:

[BroncoWave]

I wasn't really in that much pain in the first place. Broncos fans get way too whiny over a couple of bad seasons. Maybe I just have a different perspective because all of the college and other pro teams I cheer for are usually awful but Broncos fans in general are incredibly spoiled.

[Ravage!!!]

I wasn't really in that much pain in the first place. Broncos fans get way too whiny over a couple of bad seasons. Maybe I just have a different perspective because all of the college and other pro teams I cheer for are usually awful but Broncos fans in general are incredibly spoiled.

I don't think so. Have you seen the fans of nearly every other NFL team in the league? NO fans used to wear BAGS over their heads. Thats not "whining?" NY fans, Buffalo, San Fran, Oakland, PHILLY, Pittsburgh, Cleveland.... ever see Tennesee fans? Bronco fans aren't spoiled, we just don't like crappy coaches coming in and completely wiping out the few BRIGHT spots we finally got back onto this roster.

I don't want this to come across as an attack, but you were always in McD's corner from day one and liked how he got rid of our players. So I think that most of that time, and this time, you were content with what McDoosh did/was doing.

[BroncoWave]

I don't think so. Have you seen the fans of nearly every other NFL team in the league? NO fans used to wear BAGS over their heads. Thats not "whining?" NY fans, Buffalo, San Fran, Oakland, PHILLY, Pittsburgh, Cleveland.... ever see Tennesee fans? Bronco fans aren't spoiled, we just don't like crappy coaches coming in and completely wiping out the few BRIGHT spots we finally got back onto this roster.

I don't want this to come across as an attack, but you were always in McD's corner from day one and liked how he got rid of our players. So I think that most of that time, and this time, you were content with what McDoosh did/was doing.

And if you remember I also had no problem with his firing. I know you will choose to only accept the positive things I said about him as my entire opinion, but it's simply not the whole picture. I'm not going to let this thread devolve into a McD debate but when people say crap like "he set the team back 10 years" or "he is intentionally trying to destroy the broncos" I just had to call out stupidity like that. I would think that given that quite a few of the posters saying these things are quite a bit older than me they'd realize that things are never really as great or bad as they seem in the NFL, and a team can change their fortunes pretty quickly, but apparently not.

There is just so much parity in this league I don't see the point in overreacting to everything like many of our fans tend to do. We have been one of the luckiest fanbases in the NFL. Sometimes bad seasons happen. I'm not going to get my panties in a wad and devote my posting on here to hating on a head coach because of it.

[Simple Jaded]

McDaniels didn't set the franchise back 10 years.......thanks to John Elway.

Doogie literally did nothing right, calling him incompetent is an insult to Matt Millen and Rich Kotite.......

[Softskull]

It's still the darkest two years of my Bronco life. Josh feels a stab every night from the voodoo doll I keep next to my bed. Hope it hurts ******!

[MOtorboat]

Man, I love that man!

[BroncoWave]

Man, I love that man!

God forbid we ever have a stretch of 4-5 really bad years Mo. Our fans will commit a mass suicide.

[MOtorboat]

He set the team back generations.

[TXBRONC]

He set the team back generations.

McDaniels being fired when he was circumvented him setting the team back generations.

[MOtorboat]

McDaniels being fired when he was circumvented him setting the team back generations.

I'm not sure what this sentence means, but it's pretty obvious that McDaniels didn't set this team any further back than about a year and a half.

So, forgive me if I get a kick out of the "he set the team back a decade" bullshit.

[BroncoWave]

I'm not sure what this sentence means, but it's pretty obvious that McDaniels didn't set this team any further back than about a year and a half.

So, forgive me if I get a kick out of the "he set the team back a decade" bullshit.

It's really hilarious. Even had we not gotten Manning the team was already well on it's way back to respectability. People who honestly thought he set the team back a decade really must not know how the NFL works.

[Canmore]

It's really hilarious. Even had we not gotten Manning the team was already well on it's way back to respectability. People who honestly thought he set the team back a decade really must not know how the NFL works.

We had a franchise quarterback in Cutler. They don't grow on trees. Look at how many teams are looking for theirs. I think many of those who preached doom and gloom were thinking that we were not going to find ours for upwards of a decade or even more. How many teams are in that boat? Well, we got Manning. The problem is what shape is he really in and how long is he going to play. He really is a stop gap. Best hope, we get five really good seasons out of him. Worse case scenario, we are playing Hanie or Oz this year. Yes, we were on our way to respectability, but in Broncos land that isn't good enough.

[Chef Zambini]

It's an interesting question. If Manning wins a SB, then was the fear and loathing, the angst and suffering that was Josh McDaniels worth while?

It's difficult to say yes to this, even though 2 years after the deluge here are certain inadvertent upsides to McMoron's utter incompetence.

For instance, the Jay Cutler trade meant that Manning could come here. The 4-12 record in 2010 meant that the Broncos were in position to draft Von Miller. On the other hand any sane GM would have drafted either Clay Matthews or Brian Orakpo instead of Knowshon Moreno in 2009. There would be a core of valuable 3rd and 4th year players in place here instead of a giant sucking wound from 2009 & 2010.A sane GM wouldn't have thrown away all those draft picks, but a sane coach wouldn't have tried to trade Jay Cutler even up for Matt Cassel in the first place, so Denver wouldn't have had some of the picks McDaniels squandered on Moreno, Tebow, Alphonso Smith, etc., etc.

All in all it's hard to get over the daily suffering inflicted by McDaniels. I came closer to not giving a damn about the Broncos than ever before. If McDaniels had lasted another season, I would have stopped being a Broncos fan. I just couldn't take any more of his crap.

Even if Manning wins the SB I'm not going to forgive McMoron for anything. Ever. :coffee: (Bitter dead-ender who still hates McMoron with all the burning intensity of a million white hot suns).you get my salute just for quoting the great scholar and philosopher, AL BUNDEY

[Chef Zambini]

plain and simple, if we didnt have ELWAY, we would not have MANNING !
JMCD did not give LE to the broncos !
... and if it wasnt for LUCK, the colts would not have parted with PM in the first place!
ATLANTA has general sherman
Chicago has MRS, O'LEARY's COW,
denver has josh mcdaniels !

[Ravage!!!]

I'm not sure what this sentence means, but it's pretty obvious that McDaniels didn't set this team any further back than about a year and a half.

So, forgive me if I get a kick out of the "he set the team back a decade" bullshit.

Its not bullshit at ALl. You think the "plan" was to have a Manning available in FA?? What if Manning didn't come along, then we would STILL have Tim Tebow as our starting QB. How much longer would that have set us back?? How many QBs has San Fran gone through, Buffalo, Miami, San Diego (before Rivers), Pittsburgh (before Roth)....... how easy do you suppose it is to FIND and draft a quality QB?? IT'S BULLSHIT when someone doesn't see that the removal of talent that McDaniels did...ABSOLUTELY... put this team back ten years if it wasn't for an AMAZING amount of fortunate "Luck" on so many levels. How many WRs have we EVER drafted with Marshall's talent?

[Northman]

Was it worth it to have McDaniels?

Nope.

It took getting not only one of the greatest players in football history but Bronco history to get the ship back on course. McDaniels was a bum and is still a bum and its clearly evident in not only what he did here but his failure in St. Louis as well. Now, he is back home in NE where he has a HOF QB to make him look pretty again but he was a vast mistake of a choice. Luckily, it didnt cost us more than it initially did and thankfully Bowlen didnt give him a third year to drag it further down into oblivion.

Cutler had his issues, Marshall had his but i could deal with any of that any day of the week over Josh McDaniel's stupid ass. He is the epitome of epic failure.

[MOtorboat]

Are you guys as excited about the 2019 season as I am? Starts in two months...

[Ravage!!!]

It's really hilarious. Even had we not gotten Manning the team was already well on it's way back to respectability. People who honestly thought he set the team back a decade really must not know how the NFL works.

No we weren't. Winning that playoff game with Tebow wasn't "back to respectiblity"..thats a JOKE. We were the JOKE of the NFL, and STILL would have had Tebow trying to run an offense in this league if Luck wasn't available to draft, and if Indy didn't happen to have the worst record this year. Mix that with if Manning do exactly the right things, or if another team had done a better job. The UNBELIEVABLE set of circumstances that had do occur for us to sign the largest FA in franchise history, are off the charts.

You think its "so easy to get back" in today's NFL....REALLY??? How long did it take for the Giants to get back to the Super Bowl before Eli? What about Pitt since the 70s? San Fran? Dallas? These were GIANTS in the NFL with amazing runs of multible Super Bowls in short spans, yet have been reduced to basically after-thoughts once losing a top QB. Ask Buffalo, or Miami, what its been like to watch their team since losing their QB

It doesn't even matter if you believe Cutler to be "That" kind of QB or not....because the point is, once you get a guy that has the talent and the potential, is only 24 years old, and SHOWING to be a VERY good QB in the NFL..... you do NOT SIMPLY LET THEM GO. Its absolutely ******* STUPID, and by looking at the EVIDENCE OF TODAY'S NFL (which apparantly you believe you are better at observing than everyone) shows that when you do NOT keep top talent at the QB position, you spend DECADES looking for new ones.

You obviously DO NOT KNOW how the NFL works.

[Northman]

Are you guys as excited about the 2019 season as I am? Starts in two months...

Actually, i was excited the day Josh was fired. :)

[Ravage!!!]

We had to use first round picks to select a player to replace Cutler.
We had to use a first round pick to select a player to replace Marshall...... (and NEITHER are even close)

We then had to replace TEs, and RBs...and then again, had to spend money to replace the QB that was a replacement for the QB we already had.

Alllllll resources that COULD have been spent on other places. Instead, we've spent the last two years scrambling to try and replace the replacements of positions and players that were already in place. Yet, still, having to rely on good fortune and 'luck' to get closer.

I would have loved to see what our team woudl look like now if we could have used those first round picks on other positions rather than WR, QB, RB. What could we have gotten in this offseason had we not had the need to go after Manning?

Would I rather have a team that has been building with CUtler, Marshall, the first round picks we COULD have gotten, and the FAs that we could have signed instead. Most probably.

[BroncoJoe]

I don't care for McDaniels at all, but I didn't then and still don't mind Cutler being gone from the team.

[MOtorboat]

Bronco playoff wins since the 2006 draft: 1
Jay Cutler playoff wins since the 2006 draft: 1

[Ravage!!!]

Bronco playoff wins since the 2006 draft: 1
Jay Cutler playoff wins since the 2006 draft: 1

Brilliance :eyeroll:

[Ravage!!!]

Peyton's Super Bowls won since 2006: 1
Eli's Super Bowls won since 2006: 2

Eli must be better.

[BroncoWave]

No we weren't. Winning that playoff game with Tebow wasn't "back to respectiblity"..thats a JOKE. We were the JOKE of the NFL, and STILL would have had Tebow trying to run an offense in this league if Luck wasn't available to draft, and if Indy didn't happen to have the worst record this year. Mix that with if Manning do exactly the right things, or if another team had done a better job. The UNBELIEVABLE set of circumstances that had do occur for us to sign the largest FA in franchise history, are off the charts.

You think its "so easy to get back" in today's NFL....REALLY??? How long did it take for the Giants to get back to the Super Bowl before Eli? What about Pitt since the 70s? San Fran? Dallas? These were GIANTS in the NFL with amazing runs of multible Super Bowls in short spans, yet have been reduced to basically after-thoughts once losing a top QB. Ask Buffalo, or Miami, what its been like to watch their team since losing their QB

It doesn't even matter if you believe Cutler to be "That" kind of QB or not....because the point is, once you get a guy that has the talent and the potential, is only 24 years old, and SHOWING to be a VERY good QB in the NFL..... you do NOT SIMPLY LET THEM GO. Its absolutely ******* STUPID, and by looking at the EVIDENCE OF TODAY'S NFL (which apparantly you believe you are better at observing than everyone) shows that when you do NOT keep top talent at the QB position, you spend DECADES looking for new ones.

You obviously DO NOT KNOW how the NFL works.

So your definition of respectability is winning the Super Bowl? Wow, and you try to claim Broncos fans don't have unrealistically high expectations.

Even regardless of Tebow, our defense was much improved last season and we have some talented young players on offense. Sure getting Manning helped, but wouldn't you say the fact we made and won a playoff game despite our QB is a good sign that the rest of our talent was coming along quite nicely?

And you clearly have reading comprehension issues if you think I was trying to say it would be "easy" to get back. I am simply saying that in a league with such parity as the NFL, teams can get better much quickly compared to other sports. Sure you have your poorly managed teams like the Browns and Raiders who are always bad, but the Broncos clearly aren't on that level.

If you seriously thought it was going to take the Broncos 10 years to get good again, then you are saying that Pat Bowlen is as good a leader as the guys who run the Raiders and Browns. Either that or you don't know how the NFL works. It's one of the two.

[BroncoWave]

We had to use first round picks to select a player to replace Cutler.
We had to use a first round pick to select a player to replace Marshall...... (and NEITHER are even close)

We then had to replace TEs, and RBs...and then again, had to spend money to replace the QB that was a replacement for the QB we already had.

Alllllll resources that COULD have been spent on other places. Instead, we've spent the last two years scrambling to try and replace the replacements of positions and players that were already in place. Yet, still, having to rely on good fortune and 'luck' to get closer.

I would have loved to see what our team woudl look like now if we could have used those first round picks on other positions rather than WR, QB, RB. What could we have gotten in this offseason had we not had the need to go after Manning?

Would I rather have a team that has been building with CUtler, Marshall, the first round picks we COULD have gotten, and the FAs that we could have signed instead. Most probably.

Yes I know, we got rid of all of those players. I follow the Broncos too. But why respond to my point when you can just whine about McDaniels some more right?

[artie_dale]

Gut wrenching! Witnessing a really good, really young team, with a bright furture get dissasembled was truely gut wrenching. This team wasn't on the verge of anything until Elway was hired. Cutler, Marshall, Hillis, & Scheffler... The signing of Peyton Manning is the ONLY reason this team can possibly be a factor again. What McDaniels did is possibly the worst thing any NFL coach has done to a team in NFL history.

Is there worse?

[BroncoWave]

Any fans of teams like the Raiders, Bengals, and Browns must laugh their ass off if they read this board. Poor poor us having to go through a couple of bad seasons. How did we ever recover?

[Northman]

Any fans of teams like the Raiders, Bengals, and Browns must laugh their ass off if they read this board. Poor poor us having to go through a couple of bad seasons. How did we ever recover?

Well, its good to know that you enjoyed losing no matter how long it took BTB. Spoiled or not, losing sucks no matter if its one year or 20. Maybe the Browns and Lions fans laugh because their expectations arent all that great to begin with. As a Denver fan, i expect better and i for one am glad that Elway was able to right the ship as i wasnt happy with the years under McDaniels. Thats me as a fan, expressing myself on a team messageboard. Dont like it? Too bad. Dont come into the threads if it bothers you so much man.

[Nomad]

That son of a ***** should have been banned from the NFL.

Dzone, that chic in your sig is sizzlin!

[Ravage!!!]

Any fans of teams like the Raiders, Bengals, and Browns must laugh their ass off if they read this board. Poor poor us having to go through a couple of bad seasons. How did we ever recover?

You are completely blind as to the point. The POINT of the matter is, a coach that is willing to dis-MANTLE a young, up and coming team, and HOPE to rebuild what you already have....is STUPID. IT was the WORST dismantling of talent..YOUNG,PRO-BOWL, talent..I have EVER seen of ANY team in the NFL. EVER.

Thats the point. Winning a Super Bowl doesnt make us respectable...quit being so asinine. Our team was 8-8, we were a JOKE around the NFL with Tebow at QB. We got to the playoffs with a lousy 8-8 record, and you only get there with a crappy 8-8 record because the rest of our division sucked worse. We lost 4 of the last 5 games. We weren't respectable, and we certainly would NOT be more respected coming into this season if Tebow was our starting QB. We could continue to be the joke of the NFL. Thats NOT being "respectable." 8-8 is NOT respectable.


And you clearly have reading comprehension issues if you think I was trying to say it would be "easy" to get back. I am simply saying that in a league with such parity as the NFL, teams can get better much quickly compared to other sports.
Really? You think its "easier" in the NFL over other sports? Thats pretty ridiculous statement to make. If that were true, why has it been so long since the 49ers, Dallas, Miami, Buffalo franchises to get back to going to and winning Super Bowls??? If the parity is so diverse, what's taking them soooo long???? What took Pittsburgh so long to win a Super Bowl before Roth? WHy didn't the Patriots win one before Brady? I mean, what the hell is up with the NO Saints? It took them how long to go to and win a Super Bowl?

If its SOOOO easy to rebuild lost talent and be competitive...compared to say.... Basketball.... then why are all these teams that have a history of winning multible SUper Bowls.... NOT anymore???

You think an 8-8 season is recovering from the lost talent that we had on this team? You think that this team has "recovered" from having to replace what we already had purely because we got LUCKY and signed Manning? Not only is that completely blind, its absurd. ITs trying its best to defend McDaniels as a complete and total FAIL.

[Ravage!!!]

If you seriously thought it was going to take the Broncos 10 years to get good again, then you are saying that Pat Bowlen is as good a leader as the guys who run the Raiders and Browns. Either that or you don't know how the NFL works. It's one of the two.

:lol: You just made yourself look even dumber with this statement. Are you saying that the Steelers don't have a good owner? How long did it take them to win a Super Bowl and get back to being "respectable" again? 30 years? How about the 49ers? Miami? Buffalo? You DO realize that the Raiders have been to the Super Bowl more recently than the Broncos have, right???

Its getting sooooooo obvious that you ahve NO clue how the NFL "works." That, or you are just a natural born idiot. It's one of the two.

[BroncoWave]

Well, its good to know that you enjoyed losing no matter how long it took BTB. Spoiled or not, losing sucks no matter if its one year or 20. Maybe the Browns and Lions fans laugh because their expectations arent all that great to begin with. As a Denver fan, i expect better and i for one am glad that Elway was able to right the ship as i wasnt happy with the years under McDaniels. Thats me as a fan, expressing myself on a team messageboard. Dont like it? Too bad. Dont come into the threads if it bothers you so much man.

:lol: You are too funny. It's not called enjoying losing, it's called not acting like a huge baby about it.

I want and expect the best for the Broncos too. But I'm realistic enough not to expect us to be a playoff contender every single year. Even the best of franchises have down seasons. That's what's great about the NFL. It's not like baseball where the Yankees are always good and the Royals are always hopelessly bad.

The fact that Bowlen cut bait with McD when he did and brought in the people to turn it around as quickly as they have proves that we have the leadership not to be one of those teams that is bad for 10+ years. Sure it was more popular to whine about how McD ruined our franchise but I tend not to be so dramatic about things.

[BroncoWave]

:lol: You just made yourself look even dumber with this statement. Are you saying that the Steelers don't have a good owner? How long did it take them to win a Super Bowl and get back to being "respectable" again? 30 years? How about the 49ers? Miami? Buffalo? You DO realize that the Raiders have been to the Super Bowl more recently than the Broncos have, right???

Its getting sooooooo obvious that you ahve NO clue how the NFL "works." That, or you are just a natural born idiot. It's one of the two.

If your definition of respectability is winning the Super Bowl then your expectations are too unrealistic to even have this discussion with you.

[BroncoWave]

You are completely blind as to the point. The POINT of the matter is, a coach that is willing to dis-MANTLE a young, up and coming team, and HOPE to rebuild what you already have....is STUPID. IT was the WORST dismantling of talent..YOUNG,PRO-BOWL, talent..I have EVER seen of ANY team in the NFL. EVER.

Thats the point. Winning a Super Bowl doesnt make us respectable...quit being so asinine. Our team was 8-8, we were a JOKE around the NFL with Tebow at QB. We got to the playoffs with a lousy 8-8 record, and you only get there with a crappy 8-8 record because the rest of our division sucked worse. We lost 4 of the last 5 games. We weren't respectable, and we certainly would NOT be more respected coming into this season if Tebow was our starting QB. We could continue to be the joke of the NFL. Thats NOT being "respectable." 8-8 is NOT respectable.


Really? You think its "easier" in the NFL over other sports? Thats pretty ridiculous statement to make. If that were true, why has it been so long since the 49ers, Dallas, Miami, Buffalo franchises to get back to going to and winning Super Bowls??? If the parity is so diverse, what's taking them soooo long???? What took Pittsburgh so long to win a Super Bowl before Roth? WHy didn't the Patriots win one before Brady? I mean, what the hell is up with the NO Saints? It took them how long to go to and win a Super Bowl?

If its SOOOO easy to rebuild lost talent and be competitive...compared to say.... Basketball.... then why are all these teams that have a history of winning multible SUper Bowls.... NOT anymore???

You think an 8-8 season is recovering from the lost talent that we had on this team? You think that this team has "recovered" from having to replace what we already had purely because we got LUCKY and signed Manning? Not only is that completely blind, its absurd. ITs trying its best to defend McDaniels as a complete and total FAIL.

So the only argument you have is that since those franchises haven't won Super Bowls in a while they haven't gotten back to respectability. Gotcha. I guess making the playoffs isn't respectable to you. Only winning super bowls, huh?

[Ravage!!!]

If your definition of respectability is winning the Super Bowl then your expectations are too unrealistic to even have this discussion with you.

I never said that... YOU did. My point is very simple. Teams that have won multible Super Bowls...teams that were considered to be DYNASTIES... havent' been to, nor won, after losing a TOP talent QB. You don't just get rid of top talent QBs once you finally have a young, 24 yr old, pro-bowl, talent on your team. If they were good enough teams to win MULTIBLE Super Bowls.. then they obvisouly ahve good talent on the team. They had good coaching, and a good owner. Yet, despite having all the advantages and having the reputation and HISTORY of winning (that you claim we are spoiled to have)... couldn't win without the top talent at one position. Has NOTHING to do with winning a Super Bowl to be considered 'respectable.'

You obviously don't know what the definition is. Being an 8-8 team with a QB that was considered the worst passing QB in the NFL, losing 4 out of the last five.... is NOT respectable. We were the JOKE of the NFL. Thats not respectable.

[BroncoWave]

And you're also completely making my point for me. If we were able to make and win a playoff game with a QB as awful as you claim Tebow is, we must really have some good talent around him, which goes to show that a team with good leadership (which any non-dramatic Broncos fan can tell the team has) can turn a team around quickly.

[BroncoWave]

I never said that... YOU did. My point is very simple. Teams that have won multible Super Bowls...teams that were considered to be DYNASTIES... havent' been to, nor won, after losing a TOP talent QB. You don't just get rid of top talent QBs once you finally have a young, 24 yr old, pro-bowl, talent on your team. Has NOTHING to do with winning a Super Bowl to be considered 'repectable.'

You obviously don't know what the definition is. Being an 8-8 team with a QB that was considered the worst passing QB in the NFL, losing 4 out of the last five.... is NOT respectable. We were the JOKE of the NFL. Thats not respectable.

So you hate losing AND you hate winning. You are just impossible to please aren't you?

[Northman]

Sure it was more popular to whine about how McD ruined our franchise but I tend not to be so dramatic about things.

Uh yea. Keep telling yourself that. :lol:

[Ravage!!!]

So you hate losing AND you hate winning. You are just impossible to please aren't you?

Ok.. you answered the question of which one of the two. Natural born it is.

[BroncoWave]

Ok.. you answered the question of which one of the two. Natural born it is.

Seeing as it didn't take us 10 years to get good again I think it's pretty clear who the idiot between the two of us is.

[BroncoWave]

Uh yea. Keep telling yourself that. :lol:

I was saying the whole time during the end of the McDaniels era/the beginning of the Fox era that we would be fine and things weren't as bad as they seemed. I know you're furious that you were wrong that we would suck for 10 years but don't take it out on me.

[Northman]

I was saying the whole time during the end of the McDaniels era/the beginning of the Fox era that we would be fine and things weren't as bad as they seemed. I know you're furious that you were wrong that we would suck for 10 years but don't take it out on me.

Bzzz, wrong. I never said we would suck for years. Barking up the wrong tree there mate.

[BroncoWave]

Bzzz, wrong. I never said we would suck for years. Barking up the wrong tree there mate.

So you never claimed McD wrecked the franchise huh?

[Northman]

So you never claimed McD wrecked the franchise huh?

Nope. Just said he sucked ballz. I did say he traded away a lot of young talent but never said we would be screwed for 10 years. I dont even know where you came up with that shit.

[BroncoWave]

If you're not one of the fans I'm referring to I'm not sure why my comments have you so riled up. Are you acting offended just to act offended?

[Northman]

If you're not one of the fans I'm referring to I'm not sure why my comments have you so riled up. Are you acting offended just to act offended?

Not at all, are you insulting the fans who reacted worse than you thought they should just to be a jackass? Bottom line for me is instead of trying to instigate arguments about other people's opinions why not just post why YOU think he was a good HC.

[BroncoWave]

Not at all, are you insulting the fans who reacted worse than you thought they should just to be a jackass? Bottom line for me is instead of trying to instigate arguments about other people's opinions why not just post why YOU think he was a good HC.

Because this thread isn't about if he was a good head coach or not. But if you must know I do think he is a good football mind but I think he was set up for failure with all the responsibility he was given with the the lack of experience he had. If we'd brought in Elway to be the GM the same year we brought in McD to be the head coach I think he would have had a ton of success here.

[Northman]

Because this thread isn't about if he was a good head coach or not. But if you must know I do think he is a good football mind but I think he was set up for failure with all the responsibility he was given with the the lack of experience he had. If we'd brought in Elway to be the GM the same year we brought in McD to be the head coach I think he would have had a ton of success here.

See? That wasnt so bad now was it?

[Ravage!!!]

Seeing as it didn't take us 10 years to get good again I think it's pretty clear who the idiot between the two of us is.

This is the funny part of your perception and attempted points. You've MISSED every point given, and STILL aren't sharp enough to get it.

Being "set back" a decade (and you'll excuse me that I'll laugh at you for this)... doesn't mean we'll "suck for 10 years." Try to keep up a bit.

We HAD the guy as our franchise QB. The VERY tool that a teams needs to build upon and grow with. The VERY tool every team needs to succeed in the NFL on a consistent and regular basis. Trading away a VERY young and talented pool of players, only means that you ahve to try and REPLACE those players by using OTHER resources that you COULD have been using to build your team even better. Now this is the very tricky part, so try and read a couple time and get someone to help you if you need it.

We've had to use 1st round picks to REPLACE teh very talent we ALREADY had. How many drafts do teams have to go through, to FINALLY get an oportunity to draft a good QB, and then, when you FINALLY get good chances, how many QBs do you have to go through to actually FIND one that does well in the NFL??? Its not just picking a QB (although QBs coming out of college now are better than they were in the past). The REASON I use teams like Buffalo, the Niners, Dallas, Pittsburgh and the Patriots before Brady, is because DESPITE these teams having the players, the coaching, the GM, and the ownership to go to, win 3-4 Super Bowls....they still could NOT do it before the QB, nor been able to do it SINCE the QB.... HENCE the importance. THIS IS where the "set back for a decade" discussion came from. How long did it take Dallas to find their QB? San FRan after Young? Miami after Marino? How long has it taken Buffalo after Kelly? ITs taken everyone of those teams OVER a decade to find their replacement QB for the one they lost.

YOU are 'trying' to use the EXTRAORDINARY circumstances of Manning coming to Denver as your "I told you so." Thats absurd. Thats ridiculous, and thats what completely takes away from ANY validity you have ...whatsoever. If all the stars did NOT line up for us to acquire Manning, we would STILL have the worst passer in the NFL as our QB, coming off an 8-8 season (which is NOT winning btw)... and still be labled throughout the NFL as a Joke. Not only that, we would STILL be looking for, using draft picks on, and signing free agents to AGAIN replace the position/s that were shipped out by McDumbass.

We STILL are trying to recover from all the lost draft picks, wasted moves, picks for positions we already had, and trades that McDouch put us behind with. The funny part about this all, is you actually think that last year, and the signing of Manning proves your "guess" as being right.... in ANY way, shape, or form....correct. The fact that you can't even grasp the wasted resources that have gone into trying to rebuild after that idiotic, moron's dismantling...is funny to me.

It shows that you truly... TRULY.. have absolutely no grasp whatsoever on whats REALLY occurred, and are completely tied to defending McDork purely because you feel "its easier to rebuild in the NFL." Another brilliant statement on your part.

[Ravage!!!]

Because this thread isn't about if he was a good head coach or not. But if you must know I do think he is a good football mind but I think he was set up for failure with all the responsibility he was given with the the lack of experience he had. If we'd brought in Elway to be the GM the same year we brought in McD to be the head coach I think he would have had a ton of success here.

I do too... because Elway woudn't have traded away our QB or our WR. As Elway has stated "You don't trade away a Cutler."

[BroncoWave]

I do too... because Elway woudn't have traded away our QB or our WR.

I've never once defended McD as a GM. I think he was given way too much power. I don't let that cloud my view of him as a coach though.

[BroncoWave]

This is the funny part of your perception and attempted points. You've MISSED every point given, and STILL aren't sharp enough to get it.

Being "set back" a decade (and you'll excuse me that I'll laugh at you for this)... doesn't mean we'll "suck for 10 years." Try to keep up a bit.

We HAD the guy as our franchise QB. The VERY tool that a teams needs to build upon and grow with. The VERY tool every team needs to succeed in the NFL on a consistent and regular basis. Trading away a VERY young and talented pool of players, only means that you ahve to try and REPLACE those players by using OTHER resources that you COULD have been using to build your team even better. Now this is the very tricky part, so try and read a couple time and get someone to help you if you need it.

We've had to use 1st round picks to REPLACE teh very talent we ALREADY had. How many drafts do teams have to go through, to FINALLY get an oportunity to draft a good QB, and then, when you FINALLY get good chances, how many QBs do you have to go through to actually FIND one that does well in the NFL??? Its not just picking a QB (although QBs coming out of college now are better than they were in the past). The REASON I use teams like Buffalo, the Niners, Dallas, Pittsburgh and the Patriots before Brady, is because DESPITE these teams having the players, the coaching, the GM, and the ownership to go to, win 3-4 Super Bowls....they still could NOT do it before the QB, nor been able to do it SINCE the QB.... HENCE the importance. THIS IS where the "set back for a decade" discussion came from. How long did it take Dallas to find their QB? San FRan after Young? Miami after Marino? How long has it taken Buffalo after Kelly? ITs taken everyone of those teams OVER a decade to find their replacement QB for the one they lost.

YOU are 'trying' to use the EXTRAORDINARY circumstances of Manning coming to Denver as your "I told you so." Thats absurd. Thats ridiculous, and thats what completely takes away from ANY validity you have ...whatsoever. If all the stars did NOT line up for us to acquire Manning, we would STILL have the worst passer in the NFL as our QB, coming off an 8-8 season (which is NOT winning btw)... and still be labled throughout the NFL as a Joke. Not only that, we would STILL be looking for, using draft picks on, and signing free agents to AGAIN replace the position/s that were shipped out by McDumbass.

We STILL are trying to recover from all the lost draft picks, wasted moves, picks for positions we already had, and trades that McDouch put us behind with. The funny part about this all, is you actually think that last year, and the signing of Manning proves your "guess" as being right.... in ANY way, shape, or form....correct. The fact that you can't even grasp the wasted resources that have gone into trying to rebuild after that idiotic, moron's dismantling...is funny to me.

It shows that you truly... TRULY.. have absolutely no grasp whatsoever on whats REALLY occurred, and are completely tied to defending McDork purely because you feel "its easier to rebuild in the NFL." Another brilliant statement on your part.

When you stop misrepresenting everything I say I'll take something you say seriously.

[Nomad]

I do too... because Elway woudn't have traded away our QB or our WR. As Elway has stated "You don't trade away a Cutler."

I don't believe Marshall would have lasted as a BRONCO even if McDaniels didn't become the HC. He would have eventually moved on. JMO!

[BroncoWave]

I don't believe Marshall would have lasted as a BRONCO even if McDaniels didn't become the HC. He would have eventually moved on. JMO!

Given the reports of Cutler wanting out once Bates was let go, there is no way of knowing if he would have lasted despite McD either. But apparently I'm an idiot for suggesting that anything other than that awful McD could have been a reason for certain players leaving.

[Ravage!!!]

I don't believe Marshall would have lasted as a BRONCO even if McDaniels didn't become the HC. He would have eventually moved on. JMO!

Possibly. You could be right, but I don't think so. I think McDaniels didn't get along with anyone, and I think Elway and Fox (and any other coach) would have worked fine with Marshall. Obviously, we'll never know. But I just think the duo of Marshall and Cutler would have been too good to get rid of.

[BroncoWave]

Possibly. You could be right, but I don't think so. I think McDaniels didn't get along with anyone, and I think Elway and Fox (and any other coach) would have worked fine with Marshall. Obviously, we'll never know. But I just think the duo of Marshall and Cutler would have been too good to get rid of.

If "any other coach" would have worked fine with Marshall, why is he on his third team now?

[Ravage!!!]

If "any other coach" would have worked fine with Marshall, why is he on his third team now?

Marshall isn't out of Miami because he didn't get along with the coaches. They don't have a QB, and spent a lot of money on a WR. They traded him because they felt that the club incident may get him suspended. ITs not, but they rolled the dice and lost.

[BroncoWave]

Marshall isn't out of Miami because he didn't get along with the coaches. They don't have a QB, and spent a lot of money on a WR. They traded him because they felt that the club incident may get him suspended. ITs not, but they rolled the dice and lost.

You just better hope the Bears don't get rid of him in 2-3 years. Miami dumping him weakens your point that it was all McD's fault that he left, if the Bears dump him too it will slaughter that point.

[Ravage!!!]

You just better hope the Bears don't get rid of him in 2-3 years. Miami dumping him weakens your point that it was all McD's fault that he left, if the Bears dump him too it will slaughter that point.

Yeah..I BETTER hope or it will be SLAUGHTERED!!! :lol:

McD didn't get along with ANYONE. HE didn't even get along with his coaches. He didn't get along with St. Louis. Seems McD is the one traveling from one team to the next. Finally going back to the warm-embrace of Brady and Bill.

[BroncoWave]

Yeah..I BETTER hope or it will be SLAUGHTERED!!! :lol:

McD didn't get along with ANYONE. HE didn't even get along with his coaches. He didn't get along with St. Louis. Seems McD is the one traveling from one team to the next. Finally going back to the warm-embrace of Brady and Bill.

Like I said, he was to young and immature to get all of the responsibility he was given. Bowlen realized that and cut bait in year two (further proof that we have the kind of strong leadership that prevents us from being a perennial doormat like the Browns). I think if Bowlen had it to do over he's have put a strong GM in place (Elway, obviously) and only let McD be the coach. I think that combo could have produced massive success. I suppose we'll never know though.

[Simple Jaded]

Yeah..I BETTER hope or it will be SLAUGHTERED!!! :lol:

McD didn't get along with ANYONE. HE didn't even get along with his coaches. He didn't get along with St. Louis. Seems McD is the one traveling from one team to the next. Finally going back to the warm-embrace of Brady and Bill.
I'm not so sure Brady likes him either.......

[Simple Jaded]

Like I said, he was to young and immature to get all of the responsibility he was given. Bowlen realized that and cut bait in year two (further proof that we have the kind of strong leadership that prevents us from being a perennial doormat like the Browns). I think if Bowlen had it to do over he's have put a strong GM in place (Elway, obviously) and only let McD be the coach. I think that combo could have produced massive success. I suppose we'll never know though.Doubtful, McDaniels can't coach either, his offenses suck without Belicheck, Scarneccia and Ernie Adams.......

[Chef Zambini]

Given the reports of Cutler wanting out once Bates was let go, there is no way of knowing if he would have lasted despite McD either. But apparently I'm an idiot for suggesting that anything other than that awful McD could have been a reason for certain players leaving.maybe JMCD just brings out the worst in people!! marshal on his third team?
the 49ers were steve youngs third team, i guess he too was a bad seed?
JMCD, look at what his tenure left behind in denver and st. louis !
which of the 2 is more distructive?

[Chef Zambini]

Are you guys as excited about the 2019 season as I am? Starts in two months...check the settings on your time machine, its 2012.
and yes, I know you were being sarcastic, but only the king of comebacks, JE could bring us back from a 5 year crater in record time !
I felt JMCD set us back 5 years, I am amazed at the repairs that JE and staff have undertaken in just 3 years time.
... and lets not count any chickens, my friends, I still dont see any eggs, just a repaired hen house.

[BroncoWave]

maybe JMCD just brings out the worst in people!! marshal on his third team?
the 49ers were steve youngs third team, i guess he too was a bad seed?
JMCD, look at what his tenure left behind in denver and st. louis !
which of the 2 is more distructive?

What does Steve Young have to do with Brandon Marshall? Marshall is on his 3rd team because he can't stay out of trouble. The fact that the Dolphins pretty much gave him away does nothing to dispute that. There were reports that Shanny was considering outright cutting Marshall. But once again, I've made the mistake of letting facts get in the way of a good ol' McD bashfest. Please continue...

[MOtorboat]

check the settings on your time machine, its 2012.
and yes, I know you were being sarcastic, but only the king of comebacks, JE could bring us back from a 5 year crater in record time !
I felt JMCD set us back 5 years, I am amazed at the repairs that JE and staff have undertaken in just 3 years time.
... and lets not count any chickens, my friends, I still dont see any eggs, just a repaired hen house.

The reality is that he didn't. No matter how much irrational hate gets thrown his way, it's three years later and this team is just fine.

The team wasn't set back a decade, it wasn't harmed all that bad. It's just ridiculous to listen to the absolute hyperbole people spew about it.

And Cutler is an average quarterback, at best. The opining for his services is comical.

I mean, it's just terrible watching all those Bears playoff games :rolleyes:

[BroncoWave]

The reality is that he didn't. No matter how much irrational hate gets thrown his way, it's three years later and this team is just fine.

The team wasn't set back a decade, it wasn't harmed all that bad. It's just ridiculous to listen to the absolute hyperbole people spew about it.

And Cutler is an average quarterback, at best. The opining for his services is comical.

I mean, it's just terrible watching all those Bears playoff games :rolleyes:

I don't even know why I try to argue it anymore. Nothing will ever change anyone's irrational views on the matter.

[artie_dale]

Originally Posted by BaileyTheBest

Sure it was more popular to whine about how McD ruined our franchise but I tend not to be so dramatic about things.

Ha ha... you think theres a big difference between being dramatic and being involved in the drama. Sucker.

[artie_dale]

Like I said, he was to young and immature to get all of the responsibility he was given. Bowlen realized that and cut bait in year two (further proof that we have the kind of strong leadership that prevents us from being a perennial doormat like the Browns). I think if Bowlen had it to do over he's have put a strong GM in place (Elway, obviously) and only let McD be the coach. I think that combo could have produced massive success. I suppose we'll never know though.

If McDaniels could actually coach, there wouldn't have been the drama there was. One of the most important aspects of coaching other people is LEADERSHIP. It wouldn't have matter whether McDaniels had the same power, or only had the Headcoach power, he would have failed... because he as zero leadership skill. zero leadership inspiration. You have no clue do you? I would have given you more credit if you said that "McDaniels would have been more successful if he only had to draw plays. No leading or being over any players, just making can calling the plays." That is the ONLY thing that would make sense right now. But for you to believe that if he only had to worry about coaching, that he would have been much more successful??? In St. Louis, McDaniels had even less of a role, less of a responsibility, and he STILL failed big time. He's back where he belongs, shareing an offensive coordinator job with the other guy in NE.

[BroncoJoe]

...
We were the JOKE of the NFL.
...

Please. I respect your point of view but anyone that says we were the Joke of the NFL looses my interest in reading anything they post.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Back to the original question, is Manning worth the McDaniels fiasco? IMO, no. Maybe I'll change my mind if we win a Championship with Manning, but as of now it wasn't worth it. I have never been more embarassed to be a Broncos fan than I was under McDaniels and it had nothing to do with losing. McDaniels was an ass who nobody respected and the rest of the league knew it. Most of his decisions seemed to be the wrong ones and it always garnered negative attention to the team. Then, he never seemed to want to take responsibility for those actions, always blaming someone else (it was all Cutler's fault, it was all Marshall's fault, it was the team Captains' fault that we benched two of our best players right before the last game of the season when we were in playoff contention, it was Kyle Orton's fault, it was the O-line's fault, it was Mike Nolan's fault, McSpygate wasn't his fault, etc, etc, etc).

We were a disgrace both on and off the field. There was no discipline, no chemistry in the locker room and a lot of name calling and finger pointing. The franchise was disfunctional. I can deal with a losing season from time to time, shit happens, but when that season is of your own making due to your own ineptitude, it's inexcusable. McDaniels decided from day 1 that he was going to be te face of the franchise and it was his undoing. It was the most difficult time in my life to be and stay a Broncos fan.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Please. I respect your point of view but anyone that says we were the Joke of the NFL looses my interest in reading anything they post.


I think we were seen as a joke, not just because of our record, but we were constantly in the news for negative things off the field also.

[BroncoJoe]

I think we were seen as a joke, not just because of our record, but we were constantly in the news for negative things off the field also.

I guess I have a different perspective than most. I tend to look forward, not backwards. One can certainly learn from the past, but focusing on what happened two, three or four years ago is counter-productive. Hell - one year in the NFL is ancient history.

Say what you want about this team last year and the QB - fact is we won our division, and won a playoff game. With a questionable QB. Now we have one of the greats at QB. We're (IMO) going to win our division again this year and have a real shot to make noise in the playoffs.

I am in no way defending McDaniels, but let's be honest. We had the same record with all those players everyone is pining for without any playoff appearances. Frankly, this team needed to be blown up and started fresh. Again, my opinion.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I guess I have a different perspective than most. I tend to look forward, not backwards. One can certainly learn from the past, but focusing on what happened two, three or four years ago is counter-productive. Hell - one year in the NFL is ancient history.

Say what you want about this team last year and the QB - fact is we won our division, and won a playoff game. With a questionable QB. Now we have one of the greats at QB. We're (IMO) going to win our division again this year and have a real shot to make noise in the playoffs.

I am in no way defending McDaniels, but let's be honest. We had the same record with all those players everyone is pining for without any playoff appearances. Frankly, this team needed to be blown up and started fresh. Again, my opinion.

I won't argue the "blow it up and start fresh" approach, McDaniels was just the poster boy for the way to absolutely not do it. Forget not "liking" him, I didn't respect him and if I couldn't respect him, I have a feeling most of the players didn't, either.

[Nomad]

McDaniel's, in no way, gets a pass for his inexperience and "it's my way or the highway" approach to the players/coaches and his game plan. I've made my view of what I think of what happened in the Cutler debacle and I believe Marshall was 'one foot out the door' before McD, but it's all the other things McD did that had me shaking my head and I was one that kept saying "give McDaniels time" but as we can see time wouldn't have helped. I put a lot of this on the shoulders of Bowlen and Ellis because they gave the young coach too much power for the little experience he had. If we were all thrown in that situation, we'd have done it our way as well. Yeah, I know most will say " I would have never gotten rid of Cutler and he would have accepted me as coach and done it my way"......sure he would have.

As BroncoJoe said, it's a lesson for the BRONCOS FO and I don't ever see Elway going with an inexperienced coach again regardless of the potential.

[BroncoWave]

Please. I respect your point of view but anyone that says we were the Joke of the NFL looses my interest in reading anything they post.

Seriously. If we're the "joke" of the NFL in a year in which we win our division and a playoff game, I hope we're the "joke" of the NFL many more times.

Like I said, some broncos fans are just impossible to please. They whine when we lose, and they whine when we win in a way they don't like. I feel sorry for anyone who didn't enjoy last season.

[Ravage!!!]

We were the JOKE of the NFL from every aspect. When people talked about Denver, they talked about how DESPITE Tim Tebow being unable to throw the ball, and DESPITE the fact that we had to run more than throw...we were getting LUCKY with our wins.

The talk in Denver was how McDaniels threw away a ton of talent, then used a ton of picks to draft a QB that completed 1 of 10 passes. The fact that we were getting EXTREMELY lucky with fumbles to takke us into overtime, fumbles IN overtime, 59 yrd kicks, ONSIDE kick recoveries, RBs running out of bounds.... losing the last 4 games of the regular season yet STILL getting into the playoffs with just a lousy 8-8 record.

People around the NFL, fans of the game, sportswriters, commentators...were NOT bragging up the Denver Broncos. The discussion was "how the hell are they getting so lucky??" The discussion was laughing because no one could figure out how a team with such an INEPT offense, was getting away with such crap.

We were the JOKE of the media, yet some of you guys don't want to remember that the Sunday night highlights were filled with "How did they get so lucky again" while LAUGHING at the ridiculousness of how our victories came about. Sure we enjoyed that lucky 6 game winning streak (just as we enjoyed it with Orton the first year)...but it wasn't because we were "unstoppable." Teams simply stopped playing that prevent defense that allowed Tim to complete passes, and it came to an end.

Last season was fun to watch because we were doing it with LUCK, and we never knew which kind of luck was going to be on our side from week to week. Who was going to fumble for us, what kind of onside kick would we get? What defensive player would cause a fumble on their side of the field, in OT? But it was NOT NOT NOT the kind of offense that anyone thought would sustain, and CERTAINLY would not want to continue into this season. It was horrid.

[BroncoWave]

Who gives a shit what the media says? This is the same media that says Eli is better than Peyton because he has more rings. Are you that sensitive that you are going to let what the media says let you enjoy the Broncos less? People can call the Broncos a joke all they want, but as long as they are winning you can just say "scoreboard, bitches".

[Simple Jaded]

Enjoy, what exact was there to enjoy? 58 minutes of the worst football on the planet followed by 2 minutes of dump offs underneath prevent coverage followed by 7 days of hearing about how special the worst player on the field is. The only thing enjoyable was the defense/ST's.......

[BroncoWave]

Your username fits you perfectly. I hope I never become so jaded that I don't enjoy winning unless it looks pretty enough.

[Simple Jaded]

Your username fits you perfectly. I hope I never become so jaded that I don't enjoy winning unless it looks pretty enough.

Never said I didn't enjoy the winning, but I want more out professional sports, sorry. Shit, you don't even have to watch to enjoy the winning. By your standards Vin Diesel movies are enjoyable because the good guy rides off into the sunset with the hot chick. Who cares if he can act as long as the movie has a satisfactory conclusion?

Edit

Besides, who ever said anything about not "pretty enough"? The product wasn't "not pretty enough", Kyle Orton is "not pretty enough", it was worse than not pretty, it was F'n horrible by any professional measure.......

[Ravage!!!]

Who gives a shit what the media says? This is the same media that says Eli is better than Peyton because he has more rings. Are you that sensitive that you are going to let what the media says let you enjoy the Broncos less? People can call the Broncos a joke all they want, but as long as they are winning you can just say "scoreboard, bitches".

Brilliant. So because I could see that we were the joke of the NFL, you think that I "care" what the media says? Does that even make sense? I can SEE that our team SUCKED, our offense was HORRENDOUS, and our team was lucky. I also enjoyed the last minute wins, but could HEAR, and SEE that people thought of our team as a TOTAL JOKE in the process. BOTH can be true at the same time.

[MOtorboat]

Brilliant. So because I could see that we were the joke of the NFL, you think that I "care" what the media says? Does that even make sense? I can SEE that our team SUCKED, our offense was HORRENDOUS, and our team was lucky. I also enjoyed the last minute wins, but could HEAR, and SEE that people thought of our team as a TOTAL JOKE in the process. BOTH can be true at the same time.

Meanwhile 20 or so teams were worse than the Broncos. What's a joke is this crap.

I didn't want Tebow as much as you did, but we weren't the laughing stock of the league. That's in your own hyperbolic mind.

The Colts went 1-15. They were getting laughed at. Perspective time...

[Timmy!]

Last season shaved a couple years off my life. It was not pretty, but the almost unthinkable wins were fun. I eont think a team that wins the first playoff game in 6 years is a joke, but of course im much happier going into this year.

[Canmore]

Meanwhile 20 or so teams were worse than the Broncos. What's a joke is this crap.

I didn't want Tebow as much as you did, but we weren't the laughing stock of the league. That's in your own hyperbolic mind.

The Colts went 1-15. They were getting laughed at. Perspective time...

You are ripping those laughingstocks off. They won two games.

[Chef Zambini]

Seriously. If we're the "joke" of the NFL in a year in which we win our division and a playoff game, I hope we're the "joke" of the NFL many more times.

Like I said, some broncos fans are just impossible to please. They whine when we lose, and they whine when we win in a way they don't like. I feel sorry for anyone who didn't enjoy last season.any new mother will tell you she loves her newborn ! ask her if she enjoyed childbirth.

[CoachChaz]

Just out of curiosity...who should we have hired instead of McD that would have done better...and what are the odds they would have implemented a 3-4 defense that would have justified drafting Orakpo or matthews?

[Chef Zambini]

a VACANT GM/ HC office would have been better than JMCD !
status quo would have been better than the destruction!

[BroncoWave]

Never said I didn't enjoy the winning, but I want more out professional sports, sorry. Shit, you don't even have to watch to enjoy the winning. By your standards Vin Diesel movies are enjoyable because the good guy rides off into the sunset with the hot chick. Who cares if he can act as long as the movie has a satisfactory conclusion?

Edit

Besides, who ever said anything about not "pretty enough"? The product wasn't "not pretty enough", Kyle Orton is "not pretty enough", it was worse than not pretty, it was F'n horrible by any professional measure.......

What a piss poor example. In the movies you know the guy will ride off into the sunset with the hot chick in the end.

In sports there's no guarantee of ever being good. You could be a team like the Browns that's never even sniffed a Super Bowl since they started playing them. Winning is enough. I don't care if we win every game 3-0. If it winds up in a Super Bowl, we still had a better season than 31 other teams in my mind and in the minds of most.

Had we lucked out a few more games last year and won the Super Bowl, we could have quite possibly been the worst SB winning team of all time, but the ring would still have been just as shiny and I would have appreciated just as much as if we'd blown every team out by 40 along the way.

[TXBRONC]

The reality is that he didn't. No matter how much irrational hate gets thrown his way, it's three years later and this team is just fine.

The team wasn't set back a decade, it wasn't harmed all that bad. It's just ridiculous to listen to the absolute hyperbole people spew about it.

And Cutler is an average quarterback, at best. The opining for his services is comical.

I mean, it's just terrible watching all those Bears playoff games :rolleyes:

Ah no Cutler is a very good quarterback. The Bears made the playoffs in 2010 and were in position to make the playoffs last year until he got hurt.

If team wasn't being harmed all that bad then why was McDaniels fired before the end of the season? Coaches getting fired before the end of a season generally doesn't happen unless things are that bad.

Agreed we weren't set back a decade but yes it was that bad. Bowlen had fired three other head coaches prior to McDaniels all them were allowed to finish the season before they were dismissed as the head coach. Considering Bowlen's history it had pretty bad for him make fire before the season had even ended.

[Simple Jaded]

What a piss poor example. In the movies you know the guy will ride off into the sunset with the hot chick in the end.

In sports there's no guarantee of ever being good. You could be a team like the Browns that's never even sniffed a Super Bowl since they started playing them. Winning is enough. I don't care if we win every game 3-0. If it winds up in a Super Bowl, we still had a better season than 31 other teams in my mind and in the minds of most.

Had we lucked out a few more games last year and won the Super Bowl, we could have quite possibly been the worst SB winning team of all time, but the ring would still have been just as shiny and I would have appreciated just as much as if we'd blown every team out by 40 along the way.It's not an example, it's an analogy, it's supposed to show how pointless it is to defend a shitty product because a fraction of it didn't completely suck. When people discuss how F'n pathetic Vin Diesel is they'll use the 2011 Denver Broncos offense.

You enjoy shit football, good for you but I have higher standards and if all I cared about was who won I wouldn't bother watching. I don't know about you but I don't work for the team and I actually have to pay for this shit, if it wasn't the Denver Broncos I wouldn't watch that offense if they were playing in my back yard.......

[nyuk nyuk]

I never did figure out what Bowlen was thinking; hiring a guy with ZERO head coaching experience and giving him control of the farm...

[BroncoWave]

It's not an example, it's an analogy, it's supposed to show how pointless it is to defend a shitty product because a fraction of it didn't completely suck. When people discuss how F'n pathetic Vin Diesel is they'll use the 2011 Denver Broncos offense.

You enjoy shit football, good for you but I have higher standards and if all I cared about was who won I wouldn't bother watching. I don't know about you but I don't work for the team and I actually have to pay for this shit, if it wasn't the Denver Broncos I wouldn't watch that offense if they were playing in my back yard.......

So if we play beautiful great looking football but go 6-10 this year you're be happy? Ok.

[TXBRONC]

I never did figure out what Bowlen was thinking; hiring a guy with ZERO head coaching experience and giving him control of the farm...

Bowlen said what he saw in McDaniels was a young Mike Shanahan.

For the 25 plus years prior to McDaniels being hired that was the power structure. It's what he knew and what he was comfortable with.

[wayninja]

Haven't read the whole thread, but in response to the question posed to Woody; No. It wasn't worth it.

If we win a superbowl in the next few years I may take that back, but honestly, I don't see it happening. Even with Peyton, we aren't a superbowl team. If we don't get rings, the ride has been more pain than growth.

And yes, I'm back, bitches.

[MOtorboat]

With Peyton this team is light years closer to a Super Bowl contender.

[wayninja]

With Peyton this team is light years closer to a Super Bowl contender.

True, but that's also like saying it's light years closer to the center of the galaxy.

[MOtorboat]

True, but that's also like saying it's light years closer to the center of the galaxy.

The team is instantly a contender for a Super Bowl, no matter how you argue it...must be frustrating.

[wayninja]

The team is instantly a contender for a Super Bowl, no matter how you argue it...must be frustrating.

Meh, as a Bronco fan, frustration is part of the gig. But I'm not sure what else you are trying to say. Superbowl contenders? With all our other problems? I'm just not convinced.

We aren't any more a superbowl contender than Indy has been the last 5 years. How many trophies in that time?

Yes, I chose 5 years purposefully. So?

[MOtorboat]

Meh, as a Bronco fan, frustration is part of the gig. But I'm not sure what else you are trying to say. Superbowl contenders? With all our other problems? I'm just not convinced.

We aren't any more a superbowl contender than Indy has been the last 5 years. How many trophies in that time?

The Broncos won a playoff game with one of the worst quarterbacks in team history. Now with an all-time great, they are just fine.

[wayninja]

The Broncos won a playoff game with one of the worst quarterbacks in team history. Now with an all-time great, they are just fine.

Ah, that's cute. Seriously... that you think that.

Especially since 'better' QB's didn't get us that far.... cute.

[MOtorboat]

Ah, that's cute. Seriously... that you think that.

Especially since 'better' QB's didn't get us that far.... cute.

Who are these "better" quarterbacks? I hope you're not referring to Cutler or Griese...

[MOtorboat]

That said, Tebow was BAD, I mean atrocious at the position he is supposed to be playing.

[wayninja]

Who are these "better" quarterbacks? I hope you're not referring to Cutler or Griese...

Certainly not. Tebow was far superior to Cutler and Griese. Right?

[wayninja]

That said, Tebow was BAD, I mean atrocious at the position he is supposed to be playing.

It's only been a few minutes since my hiatus and already you have me talking about Tebow. I feel as though Tebow is to you as ink is to an Octopus. But yeah, Tebow was better than you constantly give him credit for.

Which must be true because you give him 0 credit. I think he's better than 0, so it's not a tough argument.

[Simple Jaded]

So if we play beautiful great looking football but go 6-10 this year you're be happy? Ok.

Clever. Where did I say that?.......

[Northman]

I think it was better when he was gone.

[BroncoWave]

Clever. Where did I say that?.......

When you said you care more about the team playing well than winning.

[TXBRONC]

When you said you care more about the team playing well than winning.

Ah no he didn't say that and just because you attempt interpret it that way doesn't make it so.


It's not an example, it's an analogy, it's supposed to show how pointless it is to defend a shitty product because a fraction of it didn't completely suck. When people discuss how F'n pathetic Vin Diesel is they'll use the 2011 Denver Broncos offense.

You enjoy shit football, good for you but I have higher standards and if all I cared about was who won I wouldn't bother watching. I don't know about you but I don't work for the team and I actually have to pay for this shit, if it wasn't the Denver Broncos I wouldn't watch that offense if they were playing in my back yard.......

[BroncoWave]

Ah no he didn't say that and just because you attempt interpret it that way doesn't make it so.

It's exactly what he said. He said he hated last season because the winning looked ugly on the field. There's nothing else to extrapolate other than he'd be happier if we went 6-10 but played good looking football.

[TXBRONC]

It's exactly what he said. He said he hated last season because the winning looked ugly on the field. There's nothing else to extrapolate other than he'd be happier if we went 6-10 but played good looking football.

No he didn't. I quoted his post that's not what he said. It's your interpretation and I can see how you could come to conclusion but that's not what he said.

[turftoad]

When you said you care more about the team playing well than winning.

Well, if the team is playing well I'm sure the wins will come.

[SR]

Nothing like arguing over interpretation and semantics.

[Simple Jaded]

When you said you care more about the team playing well than winning.

I've said a lot of things; that I didn't enjoy watching the 2011 offense, that I wouldn't watch if they played in my back yard, that the defense/ST's was enjoyable/exciting, that I expect more from/have higher standards for NFL football.......and that Vin Diesel movies suck.

I don't remember saying I care more about the team playing well than if they win, I kinda expect both. You're more hardcore than me, good for you.......

[Chef Zambini]

Nothing like arguing over interpretation and semantics.yes, lets not be anti semantic