WR Breakdown - McDaniels likes what Scheffler does

[Tned]

Maybe the reports of distress between Scheffler and McDaniels have been overstated:

http://den.scout.com/2/874112.html


If Marshall leaves, who's number one?

By Broncos Update

Posted Jun 22, 2009


This offseason, the Denver Broncos added to their receiving corps, but they still might not have the type of group that could withstand losing its most talented piece.

Denver is at a crossroads with receiver Brandon Marshall, a Pro Bowl starter last year who wants a trade. If the Broncos accommodate his wishes and send him to another team, there's no clear No. 1 receiver left on the roster.
There is some depth, however. In the wake of Marshall holding out of a mandatory minicamp, the team signed veteran Brandon Lloyd.

Without Marshall, the apparent top receiver would be Eddie Royal. A second-round pick last year, Royal quickly moved into the starting lineup and had a very good rookie season. He had 91 catches, 980 yards and five touchdowns, all records for a Broncos rookie receiver. He doesn't have prototypical size for a No. 1 outside receiver, but he can make plays.

Jabar Gaffney would also be a big contributor to the offense. He knows the system from his days with Josh McDaniels in New England, and has been working with the starting offense in the minicamps.

Denver also has holdover veterans like Brandon Stokley, a reliable slot receiver, and Chad Jackson, who has a lot of physical ability. Kenny McKinley, a rookie fifth-round pick, would also have the chance to quickly work into the rotation.

McDaniels has also shown a fondness for tight end Tony Scheffler. The Patriots didn't use their tight ends much with McDaniels calling plays, but Scheffler has lined up in many different spots and seems poised to be a big part of the passing game.

Denver also could use a run-heavy attack. The Broncos have three tailbacks -- LaMont Jordan, Correll Buckhalter and Knowshon Moreno -- all capable of being effective. Denver also has a stellar offensive line returning intact from last year.

The Broncos are still likely to spread the field with receivers, because that's what McDaniels did often in New England. Kyle Orton will be the quarterback throwing the ball to those receivers, whether the group includes Marshall or not. Orton was named the Broncos' starting quarterback.

[SoCalImport]

Great news.
Scheff and Hillis are both guys I'd love to see put in motion a lot. The've both got the ability to create major mismatches. McDaniels offense seems very geared toward taking what the defense give you and players like these two are perfect for that.
Hot route city!

[Superchop 7]

I like Scheff in motion, Hillis just needs to line up.

[Shazam!]

For all his great talent, I'd hate for Denver to have to count on a guy who's durability is such an issue.

[GEM]

For all his great talent, I'd hate for Denver to have to count on a guy who's durability is such an issue.

Up until now, we've already counted on a guy who could be suspended 8 games at the drop of a hat. We're used to this already.

[dogfish]

i'm glad to hear that doogie's coming around on chef. . . the guy is such a weapon, and he's been under-utilized in our offense to this point. . .

[Lonestar]

I'm glad to hear that doogie's coming around on chef. . . the guy is such a weapon, and he's been under-utilized in our offense to this point. . .



As the article stated TE did not get alot of attention in NE, I'd guess because they really never thought about the option of them they'd rater have the extra blocker..

If you have not seen one as good as Scheffler is why think about it..

[Dreadnought]

i'm glad to hear that doogie's coming around on chef. . . the guy is such a weapon, and he's been under-utilized in our offense to this point. . .

Exactly - its the only hopeful sign I can see going into 2009. IMO the durability question is mostly bogus, as Scheff hasn't actually missed all that many games, nor has he suffered any injuries with the long term implications of a lot of other guys, Brandoin Marshall included.

Scheffler in the huddle guarantees a mismatch on first or second down if you do it right. What to do as DC...adding a nickle back means you can line Scheffler up as a TE (or 2nd TE) and they get to stop the run with 5 DB's. Play it base defensive personnel? Then split Scheff out as a WR and watch some LB try to cover him. Thats a bad plan too. Can Orton deliver the deep ball well enough to take advantage? That's the million $ question.

[Tned]

As the article stated TE did not get alot of attention in NE, I'd guess because they really never thought about the option of them they'd rater have the extra blocker..

If you have not seen one as good as Scheffler is why think about it..

Scheffler is one of those stretch the field, tweener tight ends. In the mold of Sharpe, from what I have seen of Whitten, he seems similar. It's one of the reasons Scheffler's YPC is so high.

As Dread says, he is going to often create a mismatch, as good pass catching tight ends do. If they put a LB on him, then he will run away from him and if they put a safety on him, he will out physical him.

[CoachChaz]

Weren't the McDaniels haters bashing him at some point based on a RUMOR that he wanted to trade Sheff? Where are the "I was wrong...I made a mistake" apologies now?

[Tned]

Weren't the McDaniels haters bashing him at some point based on a RUMOR that he wanted to trade Sheff? Where are the "I was wrong...I made a mistake" apologies now?

Maybe he's wrong for keeping him and potentially making him a large part of the offense. Think about how this might stunt Quinn's development, because his playing time is limited. ;)

[Dreadnought]

Weren't the McDaniels haters bashing him at some point based on a RUMOR that he wanted to trade Sheff? Where are the "I was wrong...I made a mistake" apologies now?

Why? Its obvious now that McDaniels realizes he would have been an idiot to have traded him. I agree with that. Shopping him was beyond idiotic then and remains so now. As I also said its the first glimmer of hope I've seen yet out of the guy, in that it proves at least that McD is capable of revisiting a stupid concept when it becomes clear that it is stupid. Thats a good first step.

Now we'll see if Kyle Orton can play QB like an NFL professional. I remain skeptical.

[Tned]

Why? Its obvious now that McDaniels realizes he would have been an idiot to have traded him. I agree with that. Shopping him was beyond idiotic then and remains so now. As I also said its the first glimmer of hope I've seen yet out of the guy, in that it proves at least that McD is capable of revisiting a stupid concept when it becomes clear that it is stupid. Thats a good first step.

Now we'll see if Kyle Orton can play QB like an NFL professional. I remain skeptical.

I wonder if McD ever really tried to traid him, or if that was just media speculation because we moved up in the draft to grab a tight end?

[BroncoWave]

I wonder if McD ever really tried to traid him, or if that was just media speculation because we moved up in the draft to grab a tight end?

Agreed. I think that the talks of shopping him were almost completely created by the media and of course the McDaniels hating contingent just ate that right up. I haven't seen a single report with any substantial evidence that Scheffler was ever being shopped.

[nevcraw]

Weren't the McDaniels haters bashing him at some point based on a RUMOR that he wanted to trade Sheff? Where are the "I was wrong...I made a mistake" apologies now?

Why should they apolgize? This article does not say he did not not try to trade him.. Nothing's changed or proven with this article. Only some speculation that the new Coach will start using a TE in the passing game.. What a novel idea. whoopdy freakin doo.. like this compares to the invention of the forward pass or something.

[dogfish]

Weren't the McDaniels haters bashing him at some point based on a RUMOR that he wanted to trade Sheff? Where are the "I was wrong...I made a mistake" apologies now?


it's in the mail, coach-- keep an eye out for it. . . . :heh:



no, seriously-- where's doogie's admission that he was wrong to say that there isn't a place for a dynamic receiving TE in his system? when he issues a public apology to chef for misjudging him, i'll issue a similar one. . .


lol. . . .

[Dreadnought]

I wonder if McD ever really tried to traid him, or if that was just media speculation because we moved up in the draft to grab a tight end?

I suspect he planned on doing it. Drafting Quinn is pretty good circumstantial evidence that it was part of the concept. If it wasn't it was truly a dopey pick unless he plans on dumping Graham and his pretty hefty salary further down the line. Its not like we didn't have other gaping holes on our roster.

[CoachChaz]

Why should they apolgize? This article does say he did not not try to trade him.. Nothing's changed or proven with this article. Only some speculation that the new Coach will start using a TE in the passing game.. What a novel idea. whoopdy freakin doo.. like this compares to the invention of the forward pass or something.

The point is...McD was bashed by his contingent of haters for trying to trade Sheff. That was based on NOTHING other than media speculation. Now he "magically" goes from trying to trade him to loving him? I dont think so. Seems to me the rumors were nothing more than that and based on nothing McD said.

I dont truly expect an apology. Just my way of wondering what they'll think of to blame him for next.

[Lonestar]

Why? Its obvious now that McDaniels realizes he would have been an idiot to have traded him. I agree with that. Shopping him was beyond idiotic then and remains so now. As I also said its the first glimmer of hope I've seen yet out of the guy, in that it proves at least that McD is capable of revisiting a stupid concept when it becomes clear that it is stupid. Thats a good first step.

Now we'll see if Kyle Orton can play QB like an NFL professional. I remain skeptical.


why would it be idiotic if he originally had no use for him.. in his scheme it would like be putting a massive spolier on a hyundi

At the time his playbook did not use a pass catching TE for many plays.. their TE's were mainly for blocking and a few catches from time to time .. so Scheffler as a pass catching TE that could not block, was to the offense as worthless as teats on a boar..


now he has had him in camp and likes what he sees..

Sounds to me like he can adjust his Scheme to fit in a pass catching TE..

I also suspect that Quinn will be grahams replacement if he will not take cut in pay.. not this year but next..

[CoachChaz]

I suspect he planned on doing it. Drafting Quinn is pretty good circumstantial evidence that it was part of the concept. If it wasn't it was truly a dopey pick unless he plans on dumping Graham and his pretty hefty salary further down the line. Its not like we didn't have other gaping holes on our roster.

It makes sense. Graham has a ridiculous contract and McD likes blocking TE's. When Graham's contract is up...he's gone. Utilize him now and Quinn learns from one of the best.

Same deal with the draft run on DB's. It's not like Champ, Dawk and Hill are going to be key contributors a few years from now, so get the pieces in place and let them learn from the best.

Uh oh...don't say it too loud, but that sounds like smart personnel moves and organizational strategy. That cant possibly come from a nit wit like "Doogie", could it?

[Lonestar]

Agreed. I think that the talks of shopping him were almost completely created by the media and of course the McDaniels hating contingent just ate that right up. I haven't seen a single report with any substantial evidence that Scheffler was ever being shopped.


hey if he could have gotten a great draft choice out of the deal why not.. his old scheme did not use the TE for catching passes and since he was not a great blocker well why not..

[CoachChaz]

Why? Its obvious now that McDaniels realizes he would have been an idiot to have traded him. I agree with that. Shopping him was beyond idiotic then and remains so now. As I also said its the first glimmer of hope I've seen yet out of the guy, in that it proves at least that McD is capable of revisiting a stupid concept when it becomes clear that it is stupid. Thats a good first step.

Now we'll see if Kyle Orton can play QB like an NFL professional. I remain skeptical.

I hope you arent using the last QB when you use this word to compare Orton.

[CoachChaz]

it's in the mail, coach-- keep an eye out for it. . . . :heh:



no, seriously-- where's doogie's admission that he was wrong to say that there isn't a place for a dynamic receiving TE in his system? when he issues a public apology to chef for misjudging him, i'll issue a similar one. . .


lol. . . .

I must have missed this quote from him. My apologies in advance if I ever see it.

[powderaddict]

no, seriously-- where's doogie's admission that he was wrong to say that there isn't a place for a dynamic receiving TE in his system?

When did "Doogie" ever say this? :confused:

[Tempus Fugit]

The talk about the Patriots not using the tight end to catch passes isn't 100% accurate. In 2006, for example, Watson had 49 receptions. He was actually on pace for more early in the season, but he got dinged up and struggled a bit after that. In 2007, Moss and Welker arrived, and that took the receptions away from the tight ends.

To me, the bottom line about the TE is that whomever can break free short and over the middle will be catching a lot of passes. Someone in the Broncos offense is going to have to play the Welker role as the outlet. Orton, unlike Cassel, has a history of using the tight end, so I'd expect the Broncos to take some advantage of that.

As for Graham, I'm sure the Patriots wish they'd had him for the Super Bowl against the Giants.

[SoCalImport]

it's in the mail, coach-- keep an eye out for it. . . . :heh:



no, seriously-- where's doogie's admission that he was wrong to say that there isn't a place for a dynamic receiving TE in his system? when he issues a public apology to chef for misjudging him, i'll issue a similar one. . .


lol. . . .

See. Perfect example of forgetting to hit the "sarcasm" button.

mind you, the "lol" should've given it away.

[CoachChaz]

See. Perfect example of forgetting to hit the "sarcasm" button.

mind you, the "lol" should've given it away.

I'm not so sure the "lol" was intended to indicate sarcasm in this case.

[rcsodak]

I'm not so sure the "lol" was intended to indicate sarcasm in this case.

Did ya'll read dog's post wrong, or just me? :confused:

His point, as I'm taking it, is McD never said anything derogatory about Sheff, so why WOULD he apologize.

[dogfish]

The point is...McD was bashed by his contingent of haters for trying to trade Sheff. That was based on NOTHING other than media speculation. Now he "magically" goes from trying to trade him to loving him? I dont think so. Seems to me the rumors were nothing more than that and based on nothing McD said.

I dont truly expect an apology. Just my way of wondering what they'll think of to blame him for next.


I'm not so sure the "lol" was intended to indicate sarcasm in this case.

it was-- just messin' around, coach. . .

it's no big secret that i don't like mcdaniels, but i've never had a problem admitting when i'm wrong, and i'll give the guy credit in any case where he earns it-- although he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from me. . . .

if he can win games and make us into a contender, then the ends justify the means and i'll call him a good coach-- until then i'm going to keep calling him doogie. . . . :lol:

[dogfish]

Did ya'll read dog's post wrong, or just me? :confused:

His point, as I'm taking it, is McD never said anything derogatory about Sheff, so why WOULD he apologize.


actually, i thought he did have a quote about chef not fitting his system, but i can't find it ATM, and i don't have any more time right now to look for it. . . maybe he didn't say it specifically, i can't remember for sure. . .

in any case, whether he did or not, i don't think any apologies are going to be forthcoming. . .

:laugh:

[WARHORSE]

Theres a ton of speculation going around on this one.

For one thing, if during the Cutler saga Scheff illustrated any displeasure, that may have given McD a notion to see what he might garner on the open market.

Another factor is Scheffs blocking. McD wants great blocking cause hes gonna have Orton holding the ball longer on some plays vs others. Great blocking is paramount.

So, even Shanny wasnt overly impressed with Scheffs blocking his first year, but each year hes gotten better, and been dealing with injuries. BUT, hes shown himself to be a hard worker.

So, if McD didnt think he was the best blocker, yet looked at him during the offseason camps and seen that he has improved once again, then it would explain another possibility.

Blocking is something that gets better with REPS against live NFL players. Scheff is getting better.

As for his receiving ability, Josh seeing it first hand seems to be helping him to see the possibilities.

Scheff is a beast, yet fully realized due to a couple of injuries.

[CoachChaz]

it was-- just messin' around, coach. . .

it's no big secret that i don't like mcdaniels, but i've never had a problem admitting when i'm wrong, and i'll give the guy credit in any case where he earns it-- although he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from me. . . .

if he can win games and make us into a contender, then the ends justify the means and i'll call him a good coach-- until then i'm going to keep calling him doogie. . . . :lol:

I know where you stand and I respect it. I was just talking about the comment about Sheff. Didnt know if I read it the wrong way or not, but I did and I stand corrected.

[Northman]

Meh, according to some there is a mutiny on hand even though all the reports say that they are happy and looking forward to playing this year.

[Northman]

The talk about the Patriots not using the tight end to catch passes isn't 100% accurate. In 2006, for example, Watson had 49 receptions. He was actually on pace for more early in the season, but he got dinged up and struggled a bit after that. In 2007, Moss and Welker arrived, and that took the receptions away from the tight ends.

To me, the bottom line about the TE is that whomever can break free short and over the middle will be catching a lot of passes. Someone in the Broncos offense is going to have to play the Welker role as the outlet. Orton, unlike Cassel, has a history of using the tight end, so I'd expect the Broncos to take some advantage of that.

As for Graham, I'm sure the Patriots wish they'd had him for the Super Bowl against the Giants.


Good point, and if i recall during our playoff game against them in 05' it was Watson who was getting some good looks in that game, especially downfield.

[rcsodak]

Theres a ton of speculation going around on this one.

For one thing, if during the Cutler saga Scheff illustrated any displeasure, that may have given McD a notion to see what he might garner on the open market.

Another factor is Scheffs blocking. McD wants great blocking cause hes gonna have Orton holding the ball longer on some plays vs others. Great blocking is paramount.

So, even Shanny wasnt overly impressed with Scheffs blocking his first year, but each year hes gotten better, and been dealing with injuries. BUT, hes shown himself to be a hard worker.

So, if McD didnt think he was the best blocker, yet looked at him during the offseason camps and seen that he has improved once again, then it would explain another possibility.

Blocking is something that gets better with REPS against live NFL players. Scheff is getting better.

As for his receiving ability, Josh seeing it first hand seems to be helping him to see the possibilities.

Scheff is a beast, yet fully realized due to a couple of injuries.

One thing with McD, I don't see him painting himself into a corner on who's #1? #2? #3?

If he thinks Sheff will have a dominant advantage in the X position, that's where you're going to see him.

EddieMac wasn't exactly a speedster....and I'm not sure who's the faster between him/sheff....but I'd venture to say that sheff could play wr if McD wants to go big on the Oline with his other TE's blocking.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Meh, according to some there is a mutiny on hand even though all the reports say that they are happy and looking forward to playing this year.

Hey! I resemble that remark! ;) Anyway, it's good to hear that Scheff will have a role in this offense. He's too talented as someone who can stretch the seam and get open in the endzone to let him sit around and block all the time. If Marshall goes, he might just end up as our 2nd leading receiver this season.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

The talk about the Patriots not using the tight end to catch passes isn't 100% accurate. In 2006, for example, Watson had 49 receptions. He was actually on pace for more early in the season, but he got dinged up and struggled a bit after that. In 2007, Moss and Welker arrived, and that took the receptions away from the tight ends.

To me, the bottom line about the TE is that whomever can break free short and over the middle will be catching a lot of passes. Someone in the Broncos offense is going to have to play the Welker role as the outlet. Orton, unlike Cassel, has a history of using the tight end, so I'd expect the Broncos to take some advantage of that.

As for Graham, I'm sure the Patriots wish they'd had him for the Super Bowl against the Giants.

I've got a feeling that's going to become Eddie Royal's job. The quick slants and crossing routes underneath in space where he can use his quickness and moves. If marshall comes back, he'll be the big downfield threat like they use Randy Moss for. If not, the job will probably fall to Gaffney...:nervous:

[G_Money]

The point is...McD was bashed by his contingent of haters for trying to trade Sheff. That was based on NOTHING other than media speculation. Now he "magically" goes from trying to trade him to loving him? I dont think so. Seems to me the rumors were nothing more than that and based on nothing McD said.

I dont truly expect an apology. Just my way of wondering what they'll think of to blame him for next.

Um, the article never quotes Josh's love for him. It just says he shows a fondness. Now, I love this set of quotes from him from a different article:


"Tony's a very, very highly skilled player," McDaniels said. "He can do a lot of things. He can run, he can catch, he can block. We're going to take advantage of every skill that he has. He's made a good impression on our team here."

McDaniels admits he's never coached a tight end quite like Scheffler, one with the ability to stretch the field with a combination of speed and athleticism.

"Tony is probably the most skilled pass-receiving tight end that I've had an opportunity to be around," McDaniels said. "That's a weapon for us that we can move around on the field. We're going to try to feature him in that role."


But I also don't doubt that, before McDaniels saw Tony, Tony WAS on the block. There were too many articles about it with different orgs referenced as sources.

McDaniels has a vision in mind before he ever sees the guys on the team, and some of them do not or will not fit that mold. That's okay. Adjusting the mold to your skilled players once you see them is a good sign - I just wish he'd waited to see players like Jay before deciding about the mold.

Hopefully Orton can throw to Scheff, Royal, Stokley, Hillis and Moreno and our ground game can punish the nickel D. If we can keep Orton uninjured and field a usable defense, it might not be the abominable year some fear.

I don't believe we've fixed the D, but upgrading the RB situation might offset a decline in the bullet-pass situation.

And it'd be nice to see Scheff play a part in helping Orton not die.

However it turns out, it's gonna be a VERY interesting year.

~G

[pnbronco]

I was listening to the radio one day "The Fan" and they were talking about Graham and Marshall, they talked about some stat that I can't remember right now. So I looked on the Bronco's web site on each person stats for last year. I was surprised how many yards Tony got for his reps. Also I was surprised how few games he started. I know he has nicked up but I think he was in the dog house for his blocking, so I'm really happy he is working hard and I hope he comes into his own and stayed healthy this year....


Scheffler

G S REC YDS AVG LG TD
13 4 40 645 16.1 320 3

Marshall

15 15 104 1265 12.2 372 6

Graham

16 16 32 389 12.2 259 4

[SoCalImport]

Scheff was MIA more often than not (or that's how it seemed).
As to the yards. He's a WR at the TE position. Scheff on a fly route means most likely some safety gets to try and cover him deep one on one...good luck.

[Rick]

How much of Sfef being "MIA" was duer to Cutler not wanting to go that direction and simply wanting to hone in on WRers though?

Based on http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/broncos/index.html

Of Cutlers throws he threw at Marshall 181 times, Eddie 129 and Stokely 85 times.

Shef was thrown at 61 times for the 4rth most. So Cutler tossed at WRer 64% of the time.

Granted maybe this was in part due to Shef not getting open, running good routes, Shanny not wanting him on the field whatever but him appearing that he was MIA could be just because Cutler was not wanting to spread it around more.

[rcsodak]

How much of Sfef being "MIA" was duer to Cutler not wanting to go that direction and simply wanting to hone in on WRers though?

Based on http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/broncos/index.html

Of Cutlers throws he threw at Marshall 181 times, Eddie 129 and Stokely 85 times.

Shef was thrown at 61 times for the 4rth most. So Cutler tossed at WRer 64% of the time.

Granted maybe this was in part due to Shef not getting open, running good routes, Shanny not wanting him on the field whatever but him appearing that he was MIA could be just because Cutler was not wanting to spread it around more.

I'm sure you're wrong....


...cut-n-run'er/sheff were bff's, since their draft day.

It must have been sheff's fault. :coffee:

[jrelway]

injury prone. when the trade rumors were going on about sheff, i dont think anyone really cared too much. we know sheff has good hands and can run routes but can he stay healthy.

[Tned]

I was listening to the radio one day "The Fan" and they were talking about Graham and Marshall, they talked about some stat that I can't remember right now. So I looked on the Bronco's web site on each person stats for last year. I was surprised how many yards Tony got for his reps. Also I was surprised how few games he started. I know he has nicked up but I think he was in the dog house for his blocking, so I'm really happy he is working hard and I hope he comes into his own and stayed healthy this year....


Scheffler

G S REC YDS AVG LG TD
13 4 40 645 16.1 320 3

Marshall

15 15 104 1265 12.2 372 6

Graham

16 16 32 389 12.2 259 4

I don't think it was so much the doghouse as Graham was the 'starter' so he more times than not was the TE on the first play/series, even in games where Tony was in a lot of plays. Those 4 games we started with a two tight end set in the first series of the game, which seems to be what the base "games started".

On the YPC, Scheffler was used in a stretch the field mode, so many of his receptions was him kind of streaking past the LB's, as the WRs were in a crossing pattern or something, so that they could try and get Tony to get a mismatch on a LB trying to cover him downfield.

[horsepig]

Scheff was MIA more often than not (or that's how it seemed).
As to the yards. He's a WR at the TE position. Scheff on a fly route means most likely some safety gets to try and cover him deep one on one...good luck.

Are you talking about Sharpe?

[CoachChaz]

Scheff was MIA more often than not (or that's how it seemed).
As to the yards. He's a WR at the TE position. Scheff on a fly route means most likely some safety gets to try and cover him deep one on one...good luck.

Actually, in a spread, the corners will flank with the outside guys and if they are quality, the safeties will cheat outside the hashmarks to support them. The nickel will take the slot and the SAM gets to cover the TE. In a standard 4-3, it works the same except the MLB then covers the TE. Either way, I dont see too many LB's covering Sheff.

But it all boils down to making sure the outside passing game is effective and respected and the running game is grinding yards.