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View Full Version : Orton Vs Cutler-Pocket Presence



Tebow4Ever
06-18-2009, 09:06 PM
I was sitting here watching some youtube videos on Kyle Orton's time in Chicago and even Purdue. I noticed there is no doubt he lacks some or the arm strength that Cutler has.However,he does not seem to flinch from taking hits.He often has to step up in the pocket to get downfield but I noticed that his accuracy really does not suffer all that much when doing so.My question is, Do you think he posesses better vision in the pocket? Does he look a bit forward taking those hits sometimes? To me, He surely doesnt shy from the contact where I think Cutler knew he had some speed so he would always look to take off.. Thoughts

Shazam!
06-18-2009, 09:12 PM
It sounds like you think he looks forward to getting his ass knocked to the dirt.

Simple Jaded
06-18-2009, 09:15 PM
Denver had, what? 12 sacks in 08? I think that says something about Jay Cutler's pocket presence. And if you ask me, Cutler didn't tuck it and run enough.

Kyle Orton, on the other hand, is a complete stiff, he's not quick enough to flinch.

Just how I see it, people.......

Benetto
06-18-2009, 09:16 PM
It's hard to compare the two when Orton had no protection in the pocket, and basically had 2-3 seconds to get rid of the ball...As where Cutler had a brick wall proctecting him, and 5-6 seconds to make a decision...

JMHO...

Shazam!
06-18-2009, 09:26 PM
Denver had, what? 12 sacks in 08? I think that says something about Jay Cutler's pocket presence.

That says something about Denver's offensive line. Not Cutler.

topscribe
06-18-2009, 09:28 PM
Denver had, what? 12 sacks in 08? I think that says something about Jay Cutler's pocket presence. And if you ask me, Cutler didn't tuck it and run enough.

Kyle Orton, on the other hand, is a complete stiff, he's not quick enough to flinch.

Just how I see it, people.......

You really need to see some more Orton, my friend . . .

-----

Simple Jaded
06-18-2009, 09:29 PM
That says something about Denver's offensive line. Not Cutler.

You think Cutler's pocket presence, quick release and mobility had nothing to do with last years sack totals?.......

Simple Jaded
06-18-2009, 09:30 PM
You really need to see some more Orton, my friend . . .

-----

I have seen Kyle Orton, Top, that's the problem.......

nevcraw
06-18-2009, 09:31 PM
That says something about Denver's offensive line. Not Cutler.

please.. Cutler was very adept at feeling the rush and getting out of the way. the line rocked last year but Cutler certainly helped create the low sack total.
don't let hate stand in the way of truth..

Simple Jaded
06-18-2009, 09:32 PM
You think Cutler's pocket presence, quick release and mobility had nothing to do with last years sack totals?

I think we're done here.......gimme a break.......

Hell, play-calling had a hand in last years sack total.......

topscribe
06-18-2009, 09:34 PM
I was sitting here watching some youtube videos on Kyle Orton's time in Chicago and even Purdue. I noticed there is no doubt he lacks some or the arm strength that Cutler has.However,he does not seem to flinch from taking hits.He often has to step up in the pocket to get downfield but I noticed that his accuracy really does not suffer all that much when doing so.My question is, Do you think he posesses better vision in the pocket? Does he look a bit forward taking those hits sometimes? To me, He surely doesnt shy from the contact where I think Cutler knew he had some speed so he would always look to take off.. Thoughts

I believe they both have pretty good pocket presence. I don't know how you
would compare the two.

But I'm wearying of hearing how Orton doesn't have Cutler's arm strength. Of
course he doesn't. That's a no-brainer . . . who does, except Favre and
Russell? Hell, Brady and Manning don't have Cutler's arm strength, either. Arm
strength does not necessarily constitute "good quarterback" (see Jeff George,
Bobby Douglas, Ryan Leaf).

-----

topscribe
06-18-2009, 09:37 PM
I have seen Kyle Orton, Top, that's the problem.......

You have seen a different Kyle Orton than I have. Because in the several games
and some 64 clips I saw of him, he was very good at dodging the rush and even
running out of the pocket when he had to. In fact, one of the things that
McDaniels said impressed him was Orton's footwork in the pocket.

-----

Shazam!
06-18-2009, 09:43 PM
The O-Line had nothing to do with Cutler's low sack totals. Riiiiigggght.

topscribe
06-18-2009, 09:46 PM
The O-Line had nothing to do with Cutler's low sack totals. Riiiiigggght.

Of course, the O-line had a lot to do with Cutler's low sack total. And so did
Cutler's pocket presence and mobility at times. The two worked together.

That's where I don't believe we will suffer too much this year. Orton has a
whole lot of experience in dodging the rush because he got a lot more of it
where he played.

-----

nevcraw
06-18-2009, 10:06 PM
The O-Line had nothing to do with Cutler's low sack totals. Riiiiigggght.

who said that? haven't seen that posted once..:welcome:

Timmy!
06-18-2009, 10:15 PM
I think Orton is going to surprise a lot of people this year when he gets some protection. He was a stud at Purdue. Give him some protection, some weapons, and a running game, and he's going to be fine. Obviously, he doesn't have the raw talent like Cutler had, but Cutler would also stare down his 1st option (Marshall) and force passes because he had a rocket launcher on his shoulder. I can't count the amount of times Sheff was wide friggin open (and weren't these guys roomies?) and Cutler decided to try and force something to a double/triple covered receiver. Of course, the Cutler lovers don't ever think this happened. I can count on one hand the # of times Cutler actually threw the ball away. There is a reason he was #2 in the league in INT's people, and don't give me the blame the defense garbage. It's not like all those picks came on 4th down in the 4th quarter. Live by the rocket launcher, die by the rocket launcher. Ask Brett Favre.

Shazam!
06-18-2009, 11:42 PM
I never said Cutler had 'nothing' to do with it.

The fact remains Denver had one of the best pass protection Olines in the League last year.

OLine and QB success go hand in hand. It's a fundamental on any good offense.

Whatever we've seen of Orton on the Bears you'll see a big difference in Denver barring injuries. His coaching will be improved as long as he picks up the system.

Lonestar
06-18-2009, 11:56 PM
It's hard to compare the two when Orton had no protection in the pocket, and basically had 2-3 seconds to get rid of the ball...As where Cutler had a brick wall proctecting him, and 5-6 seconds to make a decision...
JMHO...



with many of those bad ones..

Lonestar
06-19-2009, 12:01 AM
I never said Cutler had 'nothing' to do with it.

The fact remains Denver had one of the best pass protection Olines in the League last year.

OLine and QB success go hand in hand. It's a fundamental on any good offense.

Whatever we've seen of Orton on the Bears you'll see a big difference in Denver barring injuries. His coaching will be improved as long as he picks up the system.


way to logical for some to get.. time will tell..


IIRC Orton's OC last year is now jays OC the guy that would not offer jay a ticket to ILL unless he played Safety..

dogfish
06-19-2009, 12:32 AM
i'd say it's abundantly clear that orton is superior to cutler in not just pocket presence, but pretty much any aspect for which you can measure quarterback play. . .




[/thread]

WARHORSE
06-19-2009, 12:36 AM
I never said Cutler had 'nothing' to do with it.

The fact remains Denver had one of the best pass protection Olines in the League last year.

OLine and QB success go hand in hand. It's a fundamental on any good offense.

Whatever we've seen of Orton on the Bears you'll see a big difference in Denver barring injuries. His coaching will be improved as long as he picks up the system.


Yeah, the line is stellar. But the QB has everything to do with sack totals also. See Dan Marino. Marino never got sacked cuz he got rid of the ball on top of having a great line, and he was about as mobile as a rock with polio.

All one has to do is look at the sack totals of Cassell last year vs Brady, and you'll understand. Brady is not mobile. Cassell is. Same line, different QBs, but sack totals skewed towards Cassell cause he held the ball.

He didnt understand early on what he was seeing downfield, which leads to holding the ball too long.

Errr.....................which has big impact on sack totals.

frenchfan
06-19-2009, 12:42 AM
You have seen a different Kyle Orton than I have. Because in the several games
and some 64 clips I saw of him, he was very good at dodging the rush and even
running out of the pocket when he had to. In fact, one of the things that
McDaniels said impressed him was Orton's footwork in the pocket.

-----If McD is impressed by Orton's footwork in the pocket then this is a good thing... Just look how Tom Brady is good at that... Always buying extra time by his footwork in the pocket... I was always impressed by that about Brady... He's not the kind of QB that go out of the pocket, but really one of the best I've ever seen inside the pocket...
JMHO...

NameUsedBefore
06-19-2009, 01:53 AM
Cutler has very good pocket presence. It's not something I noticed until I watched a good lot of replays on NFLN, but he does. As someone else said, it's part of the reason sacks were low, plus Cutler's inherently hard to take down.

Orton might be "tough" and can take a shot or whatever, but if he's taking shots then I don't really care how tough he is. From what I've seen he has about below-average to average pocket presence for the NFL.

WARHORSE
06-19-2009, 02:52 AM
I think Orton has pretty good pocket presence. He also can move somewhat.

He is not a Tom Brady who cant run. Orton can run.

Not super slippery in the pocket either, but he'll do for what we're asking him to do.

Orton is like a kid in the candy shop with all the weapons he has here.


Hes gonna score points.

Elevation inc
06-19-2009, 03:19 AM
I have seen Kyle Orton, Top, that's the problem.......

yeah but you aint see kyle orton under the tutelage of QB god like MCD:cool:









:lol:

Scarface
06-19-2009, 08:35 AM
You really need to see some more Orton, my friend . . .

-----

Yeah, Fire up Youtube and scout him.

MasterShake
06-19-2009, 08:42 AM
Every pocket is different. By the end of the season we can see how Cutler and Orton do with their respective lines. Any pro-QB should have at least decent pocket presence. What I saw of Cutler was that he was strong and could shrug off some sacks, and the video I've seen of Orton is that he will stand in the pocket and take a hit as he delivers. Both are strengths, but (and this is JUST A GUESS :D) I think Orton may do a bit better in our line with more time and Cutler may struggle a bit unless his o-line is shored up a bit. Cutler just didn't have the decision making ability to act quickly, but then again having too much time seemed to hurt him, too (ie not looking off his receivers for 4 seconds). Should be interesting to see. I honestly don't know enough about Orton, but I am dying to find out good or bad.

NameUsedBefore
06-19-2009, 09:05 AM
It should be noted that, if you want to talk about pocket presence, both in awareness and adversity inspite of incoming defenders, that Cutler did come from Vanderbilt and was routinely passing from a shaky pocket. I don't think Chicago can give Cutler worse than Vandy, relatively speaking.

MasterShake
06-19-2009, 09:09 AM
It should be noted that, if you want to talk about pocket presence, both in awareness and adversity inspite of incoming defenders, that Cutler did come from Vanderbilt and was routinely passing from a shaky pocket. I don't think Chicago can give Cutler worse than Vandy, relatively speaking.

Yeah, he did come from a high pressure environment. But at the NFL level I think you can up that pressure x 3 and you won't have much success. Who knows, maybe he will do better if he has to pass to his outlet on a blitz more often? No matter how good your arm is, its a waste if your line can't defend you long enough to let your receivers get downfield or any other route get open.

nevcraw
06-19-2009, 10:22 AM
That says something about Denver's offensive line. Not Cutler.

I never said Cutler had 'nothing' to do with it.



More arguments for argument sake??

This forum has become a training ground for political side speak.. as link said this is done here...

CoachChaz
06-19-2009, 11:34 AM
Marriman gets by Clady, Cutler rolls right and fires a rocket-armed laser beam into triple coverage and it's interecepted by Jammer...

...but hey...at least his presence, speed and release prevented a sack from happening.

topscribe
06-19-2009, 11:49 AM
If McD is impressed by Orton's footwork in the pocket then this is a good thing... Just look how Tom Brady is good at that... Always buying extra time by his footwork in the pocket... I was always impressed by that about Brady... He's not the kind of QB that go out of the pocket, but really one of the best I've ever seen inside the pocket...
JMHO...

In addition to that, scouting reports on Orton include that he has "above average pocket presence."

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CoachChaz
06-19-2009, 12:01 PM
I guess I just dont see how we can negatively judge a kid that has played behind the Chicago line and had a 5'9" cornerback as his primary receiver.

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06-19-2009, 12:11 PM
I guess I just dont see how we can negatively judge a kid that has played behind the Chicago line and had a 5'9" cornerback as his primary receiver.

Not to mention only two years actually on the field.

I know . . . I keep repeating that. But people seem to keep forgetting that . . .

-----

nevcraw
06-19-2009, 03:11 PM
I guess I just dont see how we can negatively judge a kid that has played behind the Chicago line and had a 5'9" cornerback as his primary receiver.

Coachaz - this may or may not be aimed at you..

But am i the only one that think's this is funny...

Give Orton a break but not Cutler. Cutler had some adversity too, don't see any off you Orton bleeding hearts backing him up..

topscribe
06-19-2009, 03:16 PM
Coachaz - this may or may not be aimed at you..

But am i the only one that think's this is funny...

Give Orton a break but not Cutler. Cutler had some adversity too, don't see any off you Orton bleeding hearts backing him up..

Please. Let's not let this deteriorate into Cutler vs. Orton. There's plenty of that
over on Mania . . . but then that's to be expected there . . .

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Tned
06-19-2009, 03:29 PM
Please. Let's not let this deteriorate into Cutler vs. Orton. There's plenty of that
over on Mania . . . but then that's to be expected there . . .

-----

Isn't this a Cutler v. Orton thread?

topscribe
06-19-2009, 03:40 PM
Isn't this a Cutler v. Orton thread?

Oops. Guess you're right. :redface:

Guess I've just gotten a bit oversensitive about that. Perhaps I might find a bit
less time on the other board kind of therapeutic? :nod:

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T.K.O.
06-19-2009, 03:58 PM
Coachaz - this may or may not be aimed at you..

But am i the only one that think's this is funny...

Give Orton a break but not Cutler. Cutler had some adversity too, don't see any off you Orton bleeding hearts backing him up..

why give cutler a break?...do we owe him some sort of allegiance ?
i dont think so...he pissed and moaned and asked to be traded.
he is not the broncos qb so no i dont think its "funny" that we dont "give him a break"
kyle orton is our qb and has done nothing but work hard and act like a classy guy,since arriving in denver.i for one would rather talk about his potential in our new offense,than speculate on how much worse off we are now that cutler skipped town!

elsid13
06-19-2009, 06:06 PM
That says something about Denver's offensive line. Not Cutler.

Actually it say something about both. Cutler was aided by a nice offense line, but it also helped he had very quick release and ability to move. People don't understand how important the way the QB drop back effect the line.

EMB6903
06-19-2009, 07:56 PM
Denver had, what? 12 sacks in 08? I think that says something about Jay Cutler's pocket presence. And if you ask me, Cutler didn't tuck it and run enough.

Kyle Orton, on the other hand, is a complete stiff, he's not quick enough to flinch.

Just how I see it, people.......

hate it or like it people... this dude hit it on the nail..

Cutler's pocket presense is amazing, always has been.

also there is nothing that Kyle Orton does better than Jay Cutler on the football field, I hope you guys expectations arent that high of this guy or you will all be very disapointed.... but hey look at it this way... with all the check downs this guy makes Moreno will rack up around 50+ receptions.

topscribe
06-19-2009, 08:00 PM
hate it or like it people... this dude hit it on the nail..

Cutler's pocket presense is amazing, always has been.

also there is nothing that Kyle Orton does better than Jay Cutler on the football field, I hope you guys expectations arent that high of this guy or you will all be very disapointed.... but hey look at it this way... with all the check downs this guy makes Moreno will rack up around 50+ receptions.

Nice dig . . . but the check down is something Orton does do better than
Cutler. When Orton's WRs weren't open (and they usually weren't), he could
check down to the TE or RB. Amazingly, Orton was criticized, and even ridiculed
for it, while Cutler was criticized for his insistence on forcing the ball into
coverage instead of checking down.

For my money, I would rather the QB check down . . .

-----

elsid13
06-19-2009, 08:15 PM
Nice dig . . . but the check down is something Orton does do better than
Cutler. When Orton's WRs weren't open (and they usually weren't), he could
check down to the TE or RB. Amazingly, Orton was criticized, and even ridiculed
for it, while Cutler was criticized for his insistence on forcing the ball into
coverage instead of checking down.

For my money, I would rather the QB check down . . .

-----

Even when he needs to make that 3rd and long and check down to the back for 4 yards?

topscribe
06-19-2009, 08:30 PM
Even when he needs to make that 3rd and long and check down to the back for 4 yards?

If it is not open 13 yards down the field, it's not open. What can I say? :noidea:

Which is preferable: check down to the back or throw an INC or INT downfield?


But your question carries an unsupported implication: How often did Orton do
that, and can you document it?

Anybody who has not lived in a sealed bomb shelter the past year knows
Orton was criticized for checking down while Cutler was criticized for his
failure to check down. Both perhaps have to improve in their respective areas,
but I reckon it may be easier for Orton to do so because of the quality of his
receivers, as opposed to Cutler's.

-----

elsid13
06-19-2009, 08:41 PM
If it is not open 13 yards down the field, it's not open. What can I say? :noidea:

Which is preferable: check down to the back or throw an INC or INT downfield?


But your question carries an unsupported implication: How often did Orton do
that, and can you document it?

Anybody who has not lived in a sealed bomb shelter the past year knows
Orton was criticized for checking down while Cutler was criticized for his
failure to check down. Both perhaps have to improve in their respective areas,
but I reckon it may be easier for Orton to do so because of the quality of his
receivers, as opposed to Cutler's.

-----

At the end of the day I would prefer a QB to fail because he believes he can make the throw to win the game vs. a QB that rather not fail because he doesn't believe in himself.

Shazam!
06-19-2009, 09:24 PM
I guess John Elway suddenly learned 'pocket presence' in the twilight of his career.

He obviously had none being the most sacked QB of all time to being one of the most untouched QBs the last 3 years of his career.

Therefore, Elway obviously had no pocket presence whatsoever according to this logic.

He somehow learned escapability in his mid 30's.

So much for this theory.

topscribe
06-19-2009, 09:38 PM
At the end of the day I would prefer a QB to fail because he believes he can make the throw to win the game vs. a QB that rather not fail because he doesn't believe in himself.

That's true. So to what QB are you referring, who doesn't believe in himself?

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dogfish
06-19-2009, 10:49 PM
If it is not open 13 yards down the field, it's not open. What can I say? :noidea:

Which is preferable: check down to the back or throw an INC or INT downfield?


But your question carries an unsupported implication: How often did Orton do
that, and can you document it?

Anybody who has not lived in a sealed bomb shelter the past year knows
Orton was criticized for checking down while Cutler was criticized for his
failure to check down. Both perhaps have to improve in their respective areas,
but I reckon it may be easier for Orton to do so because of the quality of his
receivers, as opposed to Cutler's.

-----


spin the ball through a tight window for the first. . . . :woot:


which cutler did on many occasions-- maybe that's why we were second in the league with a 48% conversion rate on third down. . . and while there's no specific stat for it, chicago's ranking of 25th with a 36% third down conversion rate would certainly seem to suggest that sid's point is valid. . .

and for all the crying about jay's interceptions, and all the suggestions that orton is more careful with the ball, it's interesting to note that that's actually completely false. . . for their respective careers, both cutler and orton have averaged one interception per every 33 pass attempts-- wow, exactly the same. . . cutler has had to throw the ball more, it's the only reason his INT numbers are higher. . . orton is no less prone to INTs than jay, not one bit! on the flip side, orton has also thrown one TD per every 33 attempts-- jay is significantly better at one TD per every 22 pass attempts. . .

jay's career completion percentage is 62.5% compared to orton's 55.3%. . . jay's 7.4 yards per play average dwarfs orton's 5.8. . . so, broncos fans can tell themselves that orton is "just as good," and that's he makes better decisions and is more careful with the ball, etc etc, but the raw stats say that cutler is far and away the better playmaker while not being a whit more prone to interceptions. . .

them's the facts. . . people can speculate all they want that cutler was simply surrounded by better talent, but let's not forget how much more jay did with the exact same talent jake plummer failed to produce with in 2006, even as a green rookie. . . do people around here really want to argue that the skill position talent makes the quarterback, not vice versa? in elway's town? as far as i'm concerned, there's a damn good reason that the QB is widely considered the most important position in pro sports. . . and how ironic is it that the same people who want to argue that cutler excelled because of that talent around him and not vice versa, are generally also the people that want to lay wins and losses at the quarterback's feet? can't have it both ways. . .

hey, i'm not trying to say that orton is a bum and there's no way he can succeed here. . . i actually liked the guy a lot coming out of college, and thought he had a chance to be a damn solid NFL QB. . . however, i think some of the attempts i've seen on this board to suggest that he's as good a QB as cutler at this point are just silly, orange glasses homer nonsense. . . JMO! i guess we'll see next year. . .

Tned
06-19-2009, 11:01 PM
jay's career completion percentage is 62.5% compared to orton's 55.3%. . . jay's 7.4 yards per play average dwarfs orton's 5.8. . . so, broncos fans can tell themselves that orton is "just as good," and that's he makes better decisions and is more careful with the ball, etc etc, but the raw stats say that cutler is far and away the better playmaker while not being a whit more prone to interceptions. . .


Not to mention if they were 'just as good', but both teams just wanted a change, then there would have been something close to a heads-up trade. Us fans seem to forget that Chicago gave Orton PLUS two first round picks for Cutler, and that other teams reportedly were willing to give just as much.

It would appear there is a discrepancy between how highly paid football executives and some Broncos' fans are valuing Cutler.

dogfish
06-19-2009, 11:06 PM
clearly, those execs forgot to take into account the fact that jay's immaturity actually makes him worthless. . . .

Lonestar
06-19-2009, 11:33 PM
clearly, those execs forgot to take into account the fact that jay's immaturity actually makes him worthless. . . .

it actually may,


Afterall Jeff george was highly thought of a couple of times before they figured it out..

topscribe
06-19-2009, 11:36 PM
spin the ball through a tight window for the first. . . . :woot:


which cutler did on many occasions-- maybe that's why we were second in the league with a 48% conversion rate on third down. . . and while there's no specific stat for it, chicago's ranking of 25th with a 36% third down conversion rate would certainly seem to suggest that sid's point is valid. . .

and for all the crying about jay's interceptions, and all the suggestions that orton is more careful with the ball, it's interesting to note that that's actually completely false. . . for their respective careers, both cutler and orton have averaged one interception per every 33 pass attempts-- wow, exactly the same. . . cutler has had to throw the ball more, it's the only reason his INT numbers are higher. . . orton is no less prone to INTs than jay, not one bit! on the flip side, orton has also thrown one TD per every 33 attempts-- jay is significantly better at one TD per every 22 pass attempts. . .

jay's career completion percentage is 62.5% compared to orton's 55.3%. . . jay's 7.4 yards per play average dwarfs orton's 5.8. . . so, broncos fans can tell themselves that orton is "just as good," and that's he makes better decisions and is more careful with the ball, etc etc, but the raw stats say that cutler is far and away the better playmaker while not being a whit more prone to interceptions. . .

them's the facts. . . people can speculate all they want that cutler was simply surrounded by better talent, but let's not forget how much more jay did with the exact same talent jake plummer failed to produce with in 2006, even as a green rookie. . . do people around here really want to argue that the skill position talent makes the quarterback, not vice versa? in elway's town? as far as i'm concerned, there's a damn good reason that the QB is widely considered the most important position in pro sports. . . and how ironic is it that the same people who want to argue that cutler excelled because of that talent around him and not vice versa, are generally also the people that want to lay wins and losses at the quarterback's feet? can't have it both ways. . .

hey, i'm not trying to say that orton is a bum and there's no way he can succeed here. . . i actually liked the guy a lot coming out of college, and thought he had a chance to be a damn solid NFL QB. . . however, i think some of the attempts i've seen on this board to suggest that he's as good a QB as cutler at this point are just silly, orange glasses homer nonsense. . . JMO! i guess we'll see next year. . .

If your objective is to respond to those who suggest Orton is just as good as
Cutler . . . or can be . . . you are responding to the wrong poster. More than
once, I have expressed in unmistakable terms that Cutler is the better QB,
from the standpoint of talent.

However, I find questionable the way you introduced Plummer into the
conversation, saying that Cutler did what Plummer could not in 2006. When
Cutler took over, the Plummer-led Broncos were 7-4, then Cutler led them to a
2-3 record the last five games. I also wondered whether you slept through
2003-2005, during which Plummer led the Broncos to three straight playoff
years. During his remaining time here, Cutler never took them to one straight
playoff year.

I think Plummer is a bad example here.

The way you presented the stats shows how they can be misleading. I saw
Cutler's games . . . as did you, I'm sure . . . and more than once did I see him
blow a sure TD with an INT. He just simply got overconfident in his arm (which
was noted in some of his scouting reports, BTW), when he should have
checked down. He also locked onto his receiver--especially Marshall--so hard
at times that he might as well yelled out loud that he was going to pass to him.

Cutler's Red Zone performance is most interesting, as opposed to Orton's.
Cutler had a 59.4 QB rating there, IIRC, whereas Orton's was 96.0

And yes, the talent differential between supporting casts indeed is a
significant factor in the differences in their respective performances. That is
the reason a team wants better WRs, TEs, O-lineman, running games. The QB
can play a better game, and so the team can log more victories. In that
interest, Cutler's O-line, WRs, running game, and coaching were better than
Orton's . . . the only argument can be at TE.

As I mentioned, Cutler is potentially the better QB. He has more talent all
around. But I don't know how he can do as well as he did this last year, going
to a team that has nowhere near Denver's talent offensively. And I don't know
how Orton can keep from doing better then he did, going to the significantly
superior offense . . . and better coaching.

So who will do better this year? Well, we'll have to wait and see, won't we?
But I would be only mildly surprised, if that, if it were Orton. :coffee:

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06-19-2009, 11:46 PM
Not to mention if they were 'just as good', but both teams just wanted a change, then there would have been something close to a heads-up trade. Us fans seem to forget that Chicago gave Orton PLUS two first round picks for Cutler, and that other teams reportedly were willing to give just as much.

It would appear there is a discrepancy between how highly paid football executives and some Broncos' fans are valuing Cutler.

A whole lot of those execs were very high on Ryan Leaf . . .

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Tned
06-19-2009, 11:53 PM
A whole lot of those execs were very high on Ryan Leaf . . .

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Remind me again what team traded two first round picks and their starting QB for Leaf? It's on the tip of my tongue, but I just can't seem to remember.

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06-19-2009, 11:57 PM
Remind me again what team traded two first round picks and their starting QB for Leaf? It's on the tip of my tongue, but I just can't seem to remember.

I'm only saying that execs can be, and have been wrong. In fact, the whole
football world has been wrong.

There have been a few, in fact, who have questioned the trade, even that it
happened, let alone the terms, such as Mike Ditka and Tony Dungy.

It's all guesswork at this point, but it isn't as if I'm on an island out here . . .

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hotcarl
06-20-2009, 12:02 AM
FYI: jay cutler is good
we should be sad

Kyle orton
Chris simms

read those names again

Tned
06-20-2009, 12:04 AM
I'm only saying that execs can be, and have been wrong. In fact, the whole
football world has been wrong.

There have been a few, in fact, who have questioned the trade, even that it
happened, let alone the terms, such as Mike Ditka and Tony Dungy.

It's all guesswork at this point, but it isn't as if I'm on an island out here . . .

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Using an example of execs being high on Leaf before he was drafted to Cutler after three years in the league is simply not a valid argument. Have execs been wrong, clearly. Many would argue Chicago was wrong on Grossman and Orton.

Since you can't tell me which team traded two firsts and a starting QB for Leaf (to make your comparison valid), maybe you can just tell us the other players that were traded for two first round picks and a starting QB?

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06-20-2009, 12:06 AM
Using an example of execs being high on Leaf before he was drafted to Cutler after three years in the league is simply not a valid argument. Have execs been wrong, clearly. Many would argue Chicago was wrong on Grossman and Orton.

Since you can't tell me which team traded two firsts and a starting QB for Leaf (to make your comparison valid), maybe you can just tell us the other players that were traded for two first round picks and a starting QB?

I only provided an example to show that the execs can be wrong. End of issue.

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Tned
06-20-2009, 12:14 AM
I only provided an example to show that the execs can be wrong. End of issue.

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All one has to do is look at the Broncos drafts to know that, or look at the success rate (or lack there of) of QBs taken in the first round of the draft over the last 15 years. However, draft mistakes are far different than evaluating a player after three years.

In addition, based on the only information we have, which is what was reported, Chicago was not the only team willing to give two first round picks for Cutler, and that it was McDaniels liking Orton which made Chicago the winner in the Cutler sweepstakes.

I'm sure there are others out there, but I don't think there are many players that have been traded for two first round picks and a starting QB.

What I know with 100% certainty is that no team gave Chicago two firsts and a starting QB for Orton. So, it doesn't make much sense to try and make a case that these two QBs are equivalent in talent or perceived potential, and it borders on insanity to try and make a case that Orton is the better QB.

I have read a lot of articles, listened to the guys on Sirius, ect., and nobody but Broncos fans rationalizing the trade are making the case that Orton is the better QB. Instead, the common theme is that 'maybe' Orton can be a good system QB in the McDaniels system and make this not look like a colossal blunder for Denver.

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06-20-2009, 12:23 AM
All one has to do is look at the Broncos drafts to know that, or look at the success rate (or lack there of) of QBs taken in the first round of the draft over the last 15 years. However, draft mistakes are far different than evaluating a player after three years.

In addition, based on the only information we have, which is what was reported, Chicago was not the only team willing to give two first round picks for Cutler, and that it was McDaniels liking Orton which made Chicago the winner in the Cutler sweepstakes.

I'm sure there are others out there, but I don't think there are many players that have been traded for two first round picks and a starting QB.

What I know with 100% certainty is that no team gave Chicago two firsts and a starting QB for Orton. So, it doesn't make much sense to try and make a case that these two QBs are equivalent in talent or perceived potential, and it borders on insanity to try and make a case that Orton is the better QB.

I have read a lot of articles, listened to the guys on Sirius, ect., and nobody but Broncos fans rationalizing the trade are making the case that Orton is the better QB. Instead, the common theme is that 'maybe' Orton can be a good system QB in the McDaniels system and make this not look like a colossal blunder for Denver.

I never once, not even by implication, did I ever, ever, ever suggest Orton
had better talent or was potentially the better QB. I have always, always,
always stated unmistakenly that Cutler is absolutely the more talented QB
with far more potential.

Now, I'm not going to get bogged down on what point I was trying to make.
If you are really interested, I have left some loooong posts on this board,
explaining that very clearly.

This post is simply to clarify to the others who may be reading this that I
never claimed what you apparently believe I did.

Goodnight.

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red98
06-20-2009, 12:31 AM
Well done Dog, very well done.

Though I would say that Elway could and did win with any scrub at the skill positions.

But he's the GOAT and no one will ever measure up to that.

Orton may work out for us, and I have faith in McKid's coaching skills, but I wish he was coaching Cutler none the less.

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06-20-2009, 12:33 AM
Well done Dog, very well done.

Though I would say that Elway could and did win with any scrub at the skill positions.

But he's the GOAT and no one will ever measure up to that.

Orton may work out for us, and I have faith in McKid's coaching skills, but I wish he was coaching Cutler none the less.

So do I, Red. So do I. *sigh*

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Tempus Fugit
06-20-2009, 12:36 AM
However, draft mistakes are far different than evaluating a player after three years.

I don't want to relive the whole "Cutler/Orton" thing again just now, but free agent busts show that talent evaluators screw up more than just occasionally, even with players who've been in the league more than three years.

red98
06-20-2009, 12:39 AM
So do I, Red. So do I. *sigh*

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I'm also starting to blame Bowlen for McDude's apperant GM mistakes. I remember he tried to call Jay even after Pat's call to trade him.


It's a damn shame, but on the bright side, I really liked the Moreno pick in the wake of the trade, maybe Mckid's no idiot after all.

topscribe
06-20-2009, 12:46 AM
I'm also starting to blame Bowlen for McDude's apperant GM mistakes. I remember he tried to call Jay even after Pat's call to trade him.


It's a damn shame, but on the bright side, I really liked the Moreno pick in the wake of the trade, maybe Mckid's no idiot after all.

You know what? I'm so damned burned by the whole fiasco that I cannot at
this time clearly think through just what happened and why. I'm angry with
everyone at this point: Mr. Bowlen, McD, and Cutler . . . and certainly Bus Cook.

I believe we have a good QB in Orton. I really do. But he isn't Cutler. I realize
that. I believe Orton can do a great job, especially with what he has to work in
Denver, and that he is indeed capable of QBing the Broncos to the Super Bowl.
(If Dilfer could do it, who can't?)

But I am going to miss those cross-field rifle shots and 30-yard passes that
traject no higher than 10 feet off the ground. I surely am.

But the Broncos are going to win. I truly believe that . . .

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red98
06-20-2009, 12:59 AM
You know what? I'm so damned burned by the whole fiasco that I cannot at
this time clearly think through just what happened and why. I'm angry with
everyone at this point: Mr. Bowlen, McD, and Cutler . . . and certainly Bus Cook.

I believe we have a good QB in Orton. I really do. But he isn't Cutler. I realize
that. I believe Orton can do a great job, especially with what he has to work in
Denver, and that he is indeed capable of QBing the Broncos to the Super Bowl.
(If Dilfer could do it, who can't?)

But I am going to miss those cross-field rifle shots and 30-yard passes that
traject no higher than 10 feet off the ground. I surely am.

But the Broncos are going to win. I truly believe that . . .

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Agreed, and if Orton can't then MckD will get someone who can. I'm just sayin when I look at his other moves in the GM sense, they're pretty good.

The draft is 50/50 good at this point. But he extended Stokely and later Casey and seems to want Marshall.

I just wish Bowlen had given Xanders final say on personnel if only to keep Bowlen out of it.

Regardless, I love defense and I especially love running the ball. I mean I get up and scream when we get a good run and pound it.

I think we have the tools to do that and McKid knows it.

Here's to 2009!

Tned
06-20-2009, 03:04 AM
I don't want to relive the whole "Cutler/Orton" thing again just now, but free agent busts show that talent evaluators screw up more than just occasionally, even with players who've been in the league more than three years.

True enough, let's look at how most of the Browncos worked out. My point about the difference between pre-draft and three year player is that while someone like Leaf was considered a hot prospect coming out of college, those guys (especially QBs) are VERY hard to predict how they will translate/transition to the NFL.

In the case of Cutler, you had a QB that most thought was a "franchise" QB with tons of upside, and had a bidding war going on for him, and if I am not mistaken, becomes one of a select few players in the NFL to be traded for such a heavy compensation package (two firsts + starting QB).

So, while he is still not in that 'elite' QB category and at this state of his career is being measured by both what he has accomplished and what his 'upside' is estimated to be, it would seem that more 'experts' than not consider him a prized possession or rare talent.

Now, circling back to where this started, my point was that one major flaw in the "Orton is as good, if not better, than Cutler" arguments is that:

First, Denver didn't give Chicago Cutler and two firsts in order to get Orton.

Second, there were reportedly several teams willing to pay the asking price of two first rounders, including Detroit with the first pick and several other teams, while there was no talk of any teams offering Chicago two first round picks and a QB for Orton.

Third, the NFL talking heads, beat reporters, etc. have all pointed out that Orton has a 'chance' to succeed in Denver due to the fact that McDaniels system doesn't require a extreme talent at QB, but instead simply a smart QB that can learn and manage the system. On the other hand, they talk about Cutler immediately making Chicago a better team, based on 'his' talent, not based on a 'system'.

Fourth, and finally, it is only Denver fans (not all, but some) that are trying to make the argument, in various ways, that Orton is as good, and possibly better, than Cutler.

NameUsedBefore
06-20-2009, 02:46 PM
In the case of Cutler, you had a QB that most thought was a "franchise" QB with tons of upside, and had a bidding war going on for him, and if I am not mistaken, becomes one of a select few players in the NFL to be traded for such a heavy compensation package (two firsts + starting QB).

It is actually history making, IIRC. I don't believe there are any other cases of a franchise trading away a young QB like Cutler.

There is a very good reason for that, of course.

Personally I think this will completely blow up in Bowlen's face. McDaniels wont be here in three years and I don't think Simms or Orton will be either for those who actually think they can be the real deal for us. My only hope is that Cutler doesn't win a bunch of Superbowls or something. I'm seriously not ready for the bullshit I'll have to eat if this turns out to be the stupidest trade ever made in NFL history.

Poet
06-20-2009, 03:04 PM
You think Cutler's pocket presence, quick release and mobility had nothing to do with last years sack totals?.......

you think Orton's lack of quality offensive lineman, WRs, TEs, and offensive firepower had nothing to do with his?

Ok guys, no one thinks Orton is better. You would be insane to think that. But, if you think Orton is a worthless slouch of a QB you would also be insane.

Orton is an average QB who plays smart and has more ability than many people think. He isn't bad.

Pocket presence is also a very interesting thing. People used to think that Marc Bulger had great pocket presence. Then his offensive line went to hell and he got smacked around. You think that he suddenly forgot how to stand in the pocket, avoid pressure, (as much as humanly possible) and throw an accurate pass?

No, you just can't have much of a presence when you hike the ball and a defensive end goes "Yay! Because of your offensive line I just meet the sack incentive clause in my contract! Here, let me help you to the ground!!!1!"

For the first time in their respectable careers, Cutler is going to get beat up and Orton is going to be adequately protected.

jrelway
06-20-2009, 03:54 PM
solomon wilcots broke it down the best on nfl network last night. orton aint no cutler. orton makes bad decisions and is gonna need marshall, moreno, royal, and all the help he can get. IMO, orton sucks. For a guy that cant crack the starting lineup over grossman and griese should tell you something right there. But i'll support him since hes all we got. If orton beasts out and takes us to the playoffs, ill be the first to admit i was wrong. but for now, orton to me is nothing more than a backup.

jrelway
06-20-2009, 03:57 PM
you think Orton's lack of quality offensive lineman, WRs, TEs, and offensive firepower had nothing to do with his?

Ok guys, no one thinks Orton is better. You would be insane to think that. But, if you think Orton is a worthless slouch of a QB you would also be insane.

Orton is an average QB who plays smart and has more ability than many people think. He isn't bad.

Pocket presence is also a very interesting thing. People used to think that Marc Bulger had great pocket presence. Then his offensive line went to hell and he got smacked around. You think that he suddenly forgot how to stand in the pocket, avoid pressure, (as much as humanly possible) and throw an accurate pass?

No, you just can't have much of a presence when you hike the ball and a defensive end goes "Yay! Because of your offensive line I just meet the sack incentive clause in my contract! Here, let me help you to the ground!!!1!"

For the first time in their respectable careers, Cutler is going to get beat up and Orton is going to be adequately protected.

even with a O line thats not good as ours, cutler does buy time with his feet. he can also back peddle to buy time and fire a pass on his back foot with more heat on the ball than orton stepping into a pass. i think cutler will do just fine in chicago.

Poet
06-20-2009, 04:06 PM
even with a O line thats not good as ours, cutler does buy time with his feet. he can also back peddle to buy time and fire a pass on his back foot with more heat on the ball than orton stepping into a pass. i think cutler will do just fine in chicago.
The funny thing about buying time with your feet is that eventually you run out of time. His amount of time to throw the ball in Chicago will pale in comparison to what he has had in Denver.

Will he be fine? Sure. Will he be as productive, nope.

SoCalImport
06-20-2009, 04:43 PM
Well done Dog, very well done.

Though I would say that Elway could and did win with any scrub at the skill positions.

But he's the GOAT and no one will ever measure up to that.

Orton may work out for us, and I have faith in McKid's coaching skills, but I wish he was coaching Cutler none the less.

Coachability may be the issue when it comes to the spark that started the fire.

Tned
06-20-2009, 04:45 PM
Coachability may be the issue when it comes to the spark that started the fire.

If what was reported is true, that was one of the reasons McD wanted Cutler out. "Reportedly" he said that he was concerned about Cutler being smart enough to pick up the offense, and being worried about his drinking.

elsid13
06-20-2009, 05:28 PM
Coachability may be the issue when it comes to the spark that started the fire.

Yet Shanahan know has having a very demanding personality and perfectionist had no problem coaching him. And Bates isn't some slack either.

elsid13
06-20-2009, 05:32 PM
If what was reported is true, that was one of the reasons McD wanted Cutler out. "Reportedly" he said that he was concerned about Cutler being smart enough to pick up the offense, and being worried about his drinking.

I am calling BS on the smart enough part. I have strange feeling it had more to do with personality clash then anything else. Cutler being head strong and little bit of ***** most likely told the High School head coach that he was that his offense would work better if they did something else. Or told McDaniels that Mike and Bates would have done it that way. McDaniels most likely felt that Cutler was undermining his "system"

Shazam!
06-20-2009, 09:11 PM
It is actually history making, IIRC. I don't believe there are any other cases of a franchise trading away a young QB like Cutler.

Steve Young- Tampa
Brett Farve- Atlanta

..and until proven in the postseason, both were better than Cutler.


I am calling BS on the smart enough part. I have strange feeling it had more to do with personality clash then anything else. Cutler being head strong and little bit of ***** most likely told the High School head coach that he was that his offense would work better if they did something else. Or told McDaniels that Mike and Bates would have done it that way. McDaniels most likely felt that Cutler was undermining his "system"

His bread and butter is QBs. Let's see him prove it now.

Tned
06-20-2009, 09:43 PM
Steve Young- Tampa
Brett Farve- Atlanta

..and until proven in the postseason, both were better than Cutler.



His bread and butter is QBs. Let's see him prove it now.

Nice try, but those aren't valid comparisons. Favre was a second round pick that never started in Atlanta. Young was like 3-16 in Tampa with a 60 passer rating over two seasons, and then was a backup in SF for four years or so.

They may have turned into hall of fame QBs, but that doesn't make their trades comparible.

Shazam!
06-20-2009, 10:16 PM
Nice try, but those aren't valid comparisons. Favre was a second round pick that never started in Atlanta. Young was like 3-16 in Tampa with a 60 passer rating over two seasons, and then was a backup in SF for four years or so.

They may have turned into hall of fame QBs, but that doesn't make their trades comparible.

Sure it does. It's even WORSE. You had QB pedigree right under your noses and let it go away, two teams desperate for stars and seemingly destined for mediocrity? It's 10x worse.

Tned
06-20-2009, 10:19 PM
Sure it does. It's even WORSE. You had QB pedigree right under your noses and let it go away, two teams desperate for stars and seemingly destined for mediocrity? It's 10x worse.

I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you saying the Cutler trade was worse or the Young/Favre trades?

Also, out of curiosity what did GB and SF give for those QB's?

nevcraw
06-20-2009, 10:38 PM
Steve Young- Tampa
Brett Farve- Atlanta

..and until proven in the postseason, both were better than Cutler.



His bread and butter is QBs. Let's see him prove it now.

This was a bigger deal given the what Cutler showed on field. And Favre did not play in ATL, so to say he was better is a farce. Young had a terrible cast in Tampa, so I give Cutler the edge because so did he and he put up better numbers.

as far as MCd's qb acumen - hope he can do it, but who's running the team while he's the QB coach? Most coaches learn that you can't be everywhere at once..

will be interesting to see who wins in this trade. as bronco fans our next 3 years count on Denver coming out on top..

Shazam!
06-20-2009, 10:42 PM
I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you saying the Cutler trade was worse or the Young/Favre trades?

Also, out of curiosity what did GB and SF give for those QB's?

2nd and 5th for Young, 1st for Farve

The point is you had that pedigree under your noses and let it get away. Bill Walsh saw it in Young. I think he knows QBs. You can't debate his time in Tampa running for his life as defining him athleticly.

Same for Farve. Never got a fair shake.

But they had the makings of elite Qbs there and let them slip through their fingers.

The point is that to say it 'never happened before' a team trading away a QB that became a star. So, it wasn't the worst deal ever. That's the point. Cutler has a zero in the postseason and other question marks too. Despite all the stats still questionable. It's also a safe bet to say he'll never hold Young's socks.

Shazam!
06-20-2009, 10:44 PM
Young had a terrible cast in Tampa, so I give Cutler the edge because so did he and he put up better numbers...

Did you just say Jay Cutler was better than Steve Young? I wanted to make sure that's what I thought I read before I responded.

Tned
06-20-2009, 10:49 PM
The point is that to say it 'never happened before' a team trading away a QB that became a star. So, it wasn't the worst deal ever. That's the point. Cutler has a zero in the postseason and other question marks too. Despite all the stats still questionable. It's also a safe bet to say he'll never hold Young's socks.

i might be wrong, but I don't think that anyone has said that no team as ever traded a QB that 'became' a star. That is irrelevant, because what the Broncos have been criticized for is trading a young, talented QB that most think will become a star based on what he has done on the field.

As to Young, are you trying to claim that Young had a better playoff record than Cutler before Tampa traded him? :confused:

You are using what Favre and Young did AFTER the trades to try and make them comparisons to the Cutler trade.

Tned
06-20-2009, 10:50 PM
Did you just say Jay Cutler was better than Steve Young? I wanted to make sure that's what I thought I read before I responded.

Based on what they had done in their careers prior to their respective trades. You are using what Young did YEARS after the trade.

nevcraw
06-20-2009, 10:52 PM
Did you just say Jay Cutler was better than Steve Young? I wanted to make sure that's what I thought I read before I responded.

Yes, he is if you are only comparing Young's days in Tampa (as I was and sure seemed like you were).. Two young QB's both with with subpar teams, Cutler had better stats, not sure what else to go by.

Shazam!
06-20-2009, 10:53 PM
To say 'it never happened before' did happen before at even worse circumstances.

Cutler is a pro bowl QB, but his playoff experience is zero and we all know that douchebag Rivers should've made the Pro Bowl instead.

Young played with a bunch of scrubs in TB. The point is they had lightning in their hand and didnt know it.

HORSEPOWER 56
06-20-2009, 10:56 PM
Wow, we just can't seem to get away from the old Cutler/Orton debate can we? Comparing Orton and Cutler is like comparing Champ Bailey and Deltha O'neal. One is a probowl talent. The other is not. I don't care what the circumstances are, Orton is no where near Cutler's level. Does Orton make some plays every now and again? Sure. Does O'neal? Sure. Are either reliable and someone that you really in the deepest, darkest places of you heart want out there when the game is on the line?

We keep trying to convince ourselves by watching old Orton "highlights" from college and the few good games he had as a Bear that things will be alright. Folks, we just traded our '09 ZR1 Corvette for a '04 Mustang GT. Is the $25K Mustang a nice enough car, yes. Is the $115K Vette better? You betcha. There's a reason that the Bears were willing to give up so much for Cutler (including Orton). We'll see what this season holds if Orton ends up the starter, but stop trying to piss on my back and tell me it's raining. :doh:

nevcraw
06-20-2009, 10:57 PM
2nd and 5th for Young, 1st for Farve

The point is you had that pedigree under your noses and let it get away. Bill Walsh saw it in Young. I think he knows QBs. You can't debate his time in Tampa running for his life as defining him athleticly.

Same for Farve. Never got a fair shake.

But they had the makings of elite Qbs there and let them slip through their fingers.

The point is that to say it 'never happened before' a team trading away a QB that became a star. So, it wasn't the worst deal ever. That's the point. Cutler has a zero in the postseason and other question marks too. Despite all the stats still questionable. It's also a safe bet to say he'll never hold Young's socks.

Farve was not serious about football in the ATL. He was out at the bars.

Those situations do not compare to this at all.

I love how your whole argument is based ont hindsight.. Silly..

NameUsedBefore
06-20-2009, 11:10 PM
Steve Young- Tampa
Brett Farve- Atlanta

Steve Young was a 'bust' when he was traded and if I remember right Brett Favre wasn't even a starter when he was traded.

Try again.

Simple Jaded
06-21-2009, 12:07 AM
Not to mention only two years actually on the field.

I know . . . I keep repeating that. But people seem to keep forgetting that . . .

-----

Only two years on the field? Out of 4? For a team that has been begging for a QB for decades?

There is a reason that he's only seen the field for 2 seasons worth of play, but somehow that is supposed to be a good thing: As if not being good enough to earn a starting job is a good thing because there is less to negatively judge him by? I just can't get there.

It took Jay Cutler all of 11 regular season games to steal the job from and thoroughly out-play a far better QB than Denver currently has.

Kyle Orton has spent the majority of his career playing Hot Potato with Rex Grossman.

No offense, but that's nothing to write home to Mom about.

Btw, I can't help but notice that people are down-playing Cutler's performance and pocket presence in the 2008 season when he had one of the best Olines/WR's in the league, and conveniently omit the 06 and 07 seasons when the Oline sucked and the skill positions weren't nearly as good.......and then insist that people take the circumstances and setting of every single second that Orton spent on the field into consideration.......

Simple Jaded
06-21-2009, 12:38 AM
If what was reported is true, that was one of the reasons McD wanted Cutler out. "Reportedly" he said that he was concerned about Cutler being smart enough to pick up the offense, and being worried about his drinking.

It's amusing to think that Doogie came to that conclusion in 2 weeks, I think that would say more about Doogie's lack of intelligence than anything else, especially considering that he traded for a QB that took 4 years to establish himself in Chicago (A possible clue that Orton is not the sharpest peanut in the turd) and has a far worse reputation as a fall down drunk than Cutler (A possible clue that Orton is the drunkest peanut in the turd).......

Shazam!
06-21-2009, 12:52 AM
Steve Young was a 'bust' when he was traded and if I remember right Brett Favre wasn't even a starter when he was traded.

Try again.

Totally irrelevant. The point is they had lightning in their pants and let it go. Both Atlanta and Tampa received IMMENSE SCRUTINY not too long after that to let two great starters go, and two of the best QBs of the decade. Hindsight is 20/20 but still.


It took Jay Cutler all of 11 regular season games to steal the job...

You are referring to Jake Plummer? Not necessarily me, but some would argue that pulling Jake cost the Broncos the playoffs and was a big mistake.

NameUsedBefore
06-21-2009, 01:04 AM
It's not really irrelevant. The Bears knew they were getting a franchise QB which is why they paid two firsts for him.

The 49ers and Packers were getting what looked like a talented bust and backup.

Shazam!
06-21-2009, 01:18 AM
The 49ers and Packers were getting what looked like a talented bust and backup.

I think Bill Walsh knew just a little something about QBs? Move along.

Lonestar
06-21-2009, 01:59 AM
If what was reported is true, that was one of the reasons McD wanted Cutler out. "Reportedly" he said that he was concerned about Cutler being smart enough to pick up the offense, and being worried about his drinking.

by smart enough he may have been ALSO talking about looking off his receivers and hitting the open man instead of forcing the ball..

If he did hear about him drinking alot with diabetes, then that in itself is a real cause for alarm..

there are degrees of smart..


It's amusing to think that Doogie came to that conclusion in 2 weeks, I think that would say more about Doogie's lack of intelligence than anything else, especially considering that he traded for a QB that took 4 years to establish himself in Chicago (A possible clue that Orton is not the sharpest peanut in the turd) and has a far worse reputation as a fall down drunk than Cutler (A possible clue that Orton is the drunkest peanut in the turd).......

in what two weeks are you talking about.. the two years he was an OC in NE or the couple of months he was here before the crap hit the fan.. just before trading or FA period started.. IIRC he watched alot of film and I suspect talked alot with the old coaches left over from mike regime..


Look we all know your dislike for anything Josh.. Just like I did not like mike the GM..


QUOTE=Shazam!;680538]I think Bill Walsh knew just a little something about QB's? Move along.[/QUOTE]

yep he did..

topscribe
06-21-2009, 02:14 AM
Only two years on the field? Out of 4? For a team that has been begging for a QB for decades?

There is a reason that he's only seen the field for 2 seasons worth of play, but somehow that is supposed to be a good thing: As if not being good enough to earn a starting job is a good thing because there is less to negatively judge him by? I just can't get there.

It took Jay Cutler all of 11 regular season games to steal the job from and thoroughly out-play a far better QB than Denver currently has.

Kyle Orton has spent the majority of his career playing Hot Potato with Rex Grossman.

No offense, but that's nothing to write home to Mom about.

Btw, I can't help but notice that people are down-playing Cutler's performance and pocket presence in the 2008 season when he had one of the best Olines/WR's in the league, and conveniently omit the 06 and 07 seasons when the Oline sucked and the skill positions weren't nearly as good.......and then insist that people take the circumstances and setting of every single second that Orton spent on the field into consideration.......

I'm not downplaying Cutler, and I never have, except for some realistic
analysis toward him. Same with Orton: I have analyzed him ad nauseam, good
and bad. That I like Orton and am impressed with him is not something I just
grabbed out of the blue. It comes from watching hours of clips and games in
which he played. It changed me from actually being negative toward the guy
to being positive. I'm not projecting him for the HOF. I know where he needs
work and improvement. But I'm also aware of his talent, which is much greater
than some on these boards assume of him.

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Simple Jaded
06-21-2009, 02:25 AM
You are referring to Jake Plummer? Not necessarily me, but some would argue that pulling Jake cost the Broncos the playoffs and was a big mistake.

Pointless, I said he took the starting job and out-played Jake Plummer, both are completely true.......




in what two weeks are you talking about.. the two years he was an OC in NE or the couple of months he was here before the crap hit the fan.. just before trading or FA period started.. IIRC he watched alot of film and I suspect talked alot with the old coaches left over from mike regime..


Look we all know your dislike for anything Josh.. Just like I did not like mike the GM..




I'm talking about the 2 weeks that Josh actually spent with Cutler before he came to the conclusion that Cutler is a stupid drunk, if Josh came to the conclusion that Denver is better off with a career backup that quickly, than he is an even bigger F'ing idiot than I think he is.

Doogie F'ed up! Let's not pretend it has anything to do with Cutler's intelligence or private life.......

Simple Jaded
06-21-2009, 02:38 AM
I'm not downplaying Cutler, and I never have, except for some realisticanalysis toward him. Same with Orton: I have analyzed him ad nauseam, good
and bad. That I like Orton and am impressed with him is not something I just
grabbed out of the blue. It comes from watching hours of clips and games in
which he played. It changed me from actually being negative toward the guy
to being positive. I'm not projecting him for the HOF. I know where he needs
work and improvement. But I'm also aware of his talent, which is much greater
than some on these boards assume of him.

-----

I was refering to his critics, Top, not you.

As for Orton, you and I will have to agree to disagree, he's changed your opinion of him but I've seen more than just his highlight reels and I think he's Brian Griese with a slightly better arm, and there is exactly nothing impressive about Brian Griese.

He is a Journeyman in every sense of the term, imo, so hopefully Denver's new system can do for QB's what their old system has done for RB's in the past, because when it comes to QB's, Jay Cutler is a Clinton Poorti$ and Kyle Orton is Reuben Droughns.......

topscribe
06-21-2009, 02:56 AM
I was refering to his critics, Top, not you.

As for Orton, you and I will have to agree to disagree, he's changed your opinion of him but I've seen more than just his highlight reels and I think he's Brian Griese with a slightly better arm, and there is exactly nothing impressive about Brian Griese.

He is a Journeyman in every sense of the term, imo, so hopefully Denver's new system can do for QB's what their old system has done for RB's in the past, because when it comes to QB's, Jay Cutler is a Clinton Poorti$ and Kyle Orton is Reuben Droughns.......

Really? Griese didn't impress you even in his Pro Bowl season of 2000? If Orton
can look like that, then I will be happy. But many considered Orton a Pro Bowl
candidate during the first half of last year. He didn't play as well during the
second half, and a high ankle sprain had something to do with that since he
could not plant and drive off his back foot when passing and could not move
around as he did before.

But my observations were analytical. I took into consideration his experience
on the field, the pass rush, the running game, his WRs and TEs, his coaching
(or the lack thereof), his injury. I came away with nothing but admiration for
the way he performed with what he had, which was not ideal by any stretch.

Regarding Cutler, I consider him as having the potential of becoming one of
the game's greatest. But that does not diminish Orton's own potential. No, it
is not on a par with Cutler's (in keeping with the topic of the thread), but I am
not about comparing the two. Cutler's gone. Orton is here. The comparison,
therefore, is ridiculous, IMO.

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LoyalSoldier
06-21-2009, 03:06 AM
I think Bill Walsh knew just a little something about QBs? Move along.

Yep kind of like when he said Rick Mirer was going to be the next Montana. :rolleyes:

Simple Jaded
06-21-2009, 03:18 AM
Brian Griese's 2000 performance wasn't all that impressive, I'm just not a big fan of the Dink-N-Dunk, but maybe the Brian Griese comparison was a bit too ambitious on my part, Brian Griese did it a little longer than 7 games.

I'm just not buying the notion that Orton's poor performance was due solely to a bum ankle, not to that extent. I think reality had as much to do with the huge drop off in performance, in that Kyle Orton was never really as good as he looked for that Magical, Mythical 7 game stretch.......

topscribe
06-21-2009, 03:40 AM
Brian Griese's 2000 performance wasn't all that impressive, I'm just not a big fan of the Dink-N-Dunk, but maybe the Brian Griese comparison was a bit too ambitious on my part, Brian Griese did it a little longer than 7 games.

I'm just not buying the notion that Orton's poor performance was due solely to a bum ankle, not to that extent. I think reality had as much to do with the huge drop off in performance, in that Kyle Orton was never really as good as he looked for that Magical, Mythical 7 game stretch.......

That's fine, but maybe you didn't understand his high ankle sprain. When analyzing
his second half last year, he altered his mechanics considerably over the first
half. He was passing in more awkward positions, often off his front foot, which
was not normal for him in his career. He also was not nearly as mobile as he was
in the first half of the season. I do attribute his decline to that injury, and I am
nowhere near alone in that assessment.


Was the difference in competition between the two half seasons a factor? In part, maybe. But the Bears played against Tennessee, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Indianapolis, Carolina and Tampa Bay, as well as division rivals Minnesota and Detroit in that first span and that's not a weak sister lineup. After watching a lot of film, I have no doubt that the right ankle injury made it impossible to plant and throw off the back foot properly.

http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/4/19/840423/tales-who-is-kyle-orton

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Simple Jaded
06-21-2009, 03:56 AM
Yeah, I've read the Mile High Propaganda Report, I'm still not buying it.......

Tned
06-21-2009, 11:39 AM
by smart enough he may have been ALSO talking about looking off his receivers and hitting the open man instead of forcing the ball..

If he did hear about him drinking alot with diabetes, then that in itself is a real cause for alarm..

there are degrees of smart..


Agreed, and both of those concerns (if really voiced by McDaniels) might have been very valid. I know that a couple guys on the Mane maintain that Cutler was a HEAVY drinker, including being seen shit faced late night/early morning before a game the next day.

On the flip side, again if McDaniels really said it, it shows an extreme lack of maturity on his part as a head coach, because that wouldn't exactly increase his trade value. On the flip, flip side, if his intention was to force a confrontation with Jay that would result in saying "we have not choice but trade him" then it was very successful, and only time will tell if it blows up in his face.

Shazam!
06-21-2009, 01:22 PM
Yep kind of like when he said Rick Mirer was going to be the next Montana. :rolleyes:

He said that about Jake Plummer too.

He was out of coaching both times.

So, Bill Walsh knew nothing about QBs. Neither does McDaniels. OK.

nevcraw
06-21-2009, 01:43 PM
[QUOTE=Shazam!;680668]He said that about Jake Plummer too.

He was out of coaching both times.

So, Bill Walsh knew nothing about QBs. Neither does McDaniels. OK.[QUOTE]

well I guess we will see. He certainly has his work cut out for him.

LoyalSoldier
06-21-2009, 04:13 PM
He said that about Jake Plummer too.

He was out of coaching both times.

So, Bill Walsh knew nothing about QBs. Neither does McDaniels. OK.

You took what I said and took it to the extreme.

My point was that even a coach as good as Walsh was capable of misjudging a QB. Sure when he was coach of the 49ers he hit gold with Montana and Young, but he also got it wrong. So in general I don't trust anyone's opinion about QBs because it is like a poker game. No matter how well you play a hand occasionally you are going to lose on sheer luck.

elsid13
06-21-2009, 04:28 PM
He said that about Jake Plummer too.

He was out of coaching both times.

So, Bill Walsh knew nothing about QBs. Neither does McDaniels. OK.

When did McDaniel become equal to Walsh??? The guy has 3 years of experience between being a QB coach and offense coordinator. And at NO time did he have finally selection of any player for NE.

Shazam!
06-21-2009, 09:28 PM
I never compared the two. Nice try.

T.K.O.
06-22-2009, 07:02 PM
At the end of the day I would prefer a QB to fail because he believes he can make the throw to win the game vs. a QB that rather not fail because he doesn't believe in himself.

at the end of the day i would prefer the qb who plays just well enough to win,than a qb who looks amazing losing !

broncohead
06-23-2009, 01:17 AM
at the end of the day i would prefer the qb who plays just well enough to win,than a qb who looks amazing losing !

Usually the QB who does just enough wasn't because of him to why they won. The opposite is true for the QB looking good losing. You need a team with both an offense and defense to win you games.

MasterShake
06-23-2009, 09:32 AM
Usually the QB who does just enough wasn't because of him to why they won. The opposite is true for the QB looking good losing. You need a team with both an offense and defense to win you games.

I don't know, I think the reason the QB gets so much scrutiny is that the play starts and stops with him usually. You either throw it to the right guy, throw it to the wrong guy, or throw it away. You can hand it off smoothly to your Running Back, and mistime it and let it fumble to the turf. In that case, I'll take a dink and dunk type QB who sustains drives for 5+ minutes for either TDs or FGs over a guy who can cover 70 yds in one play with his arm, then force the ball into triple coverage and get intercepted.

Not saying Orton can do that, but after seeing Culter's canon last year, I'm starting to think the best way to hit a target is with a handgun. Perhaps even a 22 caliber is better than a rocket. Its like when an NBA player tries to dunk on a fast break and misses when he could have just layed it up. Sorry, too many analogies! Its early and I miss football... :laugh:

T.K.O.
06-23-2009, 01:59 PM
Usually the QB who does just enough wasn't because of him to why they won. The opposite is true for the QB looking good losing. You need a team with both an offense and defense to win you games.

uhhhh....just enough means he did help the team win....
you know as opposed to throwing multiple picks when the chips are down and the seasons on the line.
im by no means saying that we are better off with orton at qb than cutler,but it is possible that orton is a better fit in the new system and we might just win a few that we otherwise would have lost.
again i say possible !
the simple truth is we dont have a choice as cutler wanted out ,so as with every other season i look for the bright side and hope for the best.
its alot more fun being a fan when you look at it that way ! GO BRONCOS!!!!:salute: