Facts/Stats do NOT lie: Brandon Marshall is not that GOOD against the GOOD teams

[Peerless]

We all know that Brandon Marshall has put up some EXCELLENT statistics the past two seasons... He's been the #1 receiver for the Broncos, and Jay Cutler's favorite target....

Here are his stats from his career:

http://i43.tinypic.com/5khlvk.jpg

Back to back years with 100+ receptions, and 1000+ yard seasons.

Brandon was the MOST targeted player in the league last season...

http://i44.tinypic.com/348nfvc.jpg

He was thrown to 174 times, and yet had the second to last % of catches among the most targeted receivers in the NFL.


The most INTERESTING statistic is this:

http://i40.tinypic.com/1zx60de.jpg

Marshall is most VALUABLE and AFFECTIVE against the WEAKER teams in the league. Look at his TD numbers against teams with +.500 winning %... ZERO, 0


Don't get too caught up with Brandon's stats. They look nice, but in reality... He's pretty useless against the better teams. 4.5 receptions and 53.5 yards against winning teams is very AVERAGE.

Like my father always told me when I played baseball. I could DOMINATE the game against cheap competition and look like a hero... But if I play the real deal and look average, I'm nothing special.... And he was right.

Don't get caught up with Brandon Marshall and his diva like ways. He's one 911 call away from being suspended, and he CLEARLY doesn't want to be a part of the new Denver Broncos. I like him, but he doesn't want to commit to this team, and I've had enough of his crap.

:logo:

[Italianmobstr7]

Keep Marshall in Denver.

[dogfish]

okay, thanks for playing. . . .



:rolleyes:

[Lonestar]

We all know that Brandon Marshall has put up some EXCELLENT statistics the past two seasons... He's been the #1 receiver for the Broncos, and Jay Cutler's favorite target....

Here are his stats from his career:

http://i43.tinypic.com/5khlvk.jpg

Back to back years with 100+ receptions, and 1000+ yard seasons.

Brandon was the MOST targeted player in the league last season...

http://i44.tinypic.com/348nfvc.jpg

He was thrown to 174 times, and yet had the second to last % of catches among the most targeted receivers in the NFL.


The most INTERESTING statistic is this:

http://i40.tinypic.com/1zx60de.jpg

Marshall is most VALUABLE and AFFECTIVE against the WEAKER teams in the league. Look at his TD numbers against teams with +.500 winning %... ZERO, 0


Don't get too caught up with Brandon's stats. They look nice, but in reality... He's pretty useless against the better teams. 4.5 receptions and 53.5 yards against winning teams is very AVERAGE.

Like my father always told me when I played baseball. I could DOMINATE the game against cheap competition and look like a hero... But if I play the real deal and look average, I'm nothing special.... And he was right.

Don't get caught up with Brandon Marshall and his diva like ways. He's one 911 call away from being suspended, and he CLEARLY doesn't want to be a part of the new Denver Broncos. I like him, but he doesn't want to commit to this team, and I've had enough of his crap.

:logo:



that is an outstanding find thanks for digging it up.. Next time can you provide a link? there will be a lot of folks that like him alot that will not believe those Numbers without seeing it themselves..

although they make sense..

One number I saw that seems to be wrong was he was targeted 181 times in 2008 not the 174 in the one graph..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/broncos/

[Peerless]

okay, thanks for playing. . . .



:rolleyes:

I'm sorry, are you butt hurt?

[Italianmobstr7]

that is an outstanding find thanks for digging it up.. Next time can you provide a link? there will be a lot of folks that like him alot that will not believe those Numbers without seeing it themselves..

although they make sense..

One number I saw that seems to be wrong was he was targeted 181 times in 2008 not the 174 in the one graph..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/broncos/

I believe it. I don't care. Keep Marshall in Denver. He's only played 3 years. He's already a top 10 receiver. We would be absolutely stupid to get rid of him.

[Peerless]

that is an outstanding find thanks for digging it up.. Next time can you provide a link? there will be a lot of folks that like him alot that will not believe those Numbers without seeing it themselves..

although they make sense..

One number I saw that seems to be wrong was he was targeted 181 times in 2008 not the 174 in the one graph..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/broncos/

Sure, most of the work came from ESPN:

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcwest/0-3-2345/Denver-has-relied-on-Marshall.html

[Lonestar]

Sure, most of the work came from ESPN:

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcwest/0-3-2345/Denver-has-relied-on-Marshall.html



Well overall good work you may want to check your % of Passes received based in the correct data it is more like 57%.

nice display,

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Most great players are going to beat up on poor defenses.

[topscribe]

It makes sense, B4B, but in fairness to Marshall, a player generally is going to
have a harder time against better teams. That is why they are better teams.

-----

[Lonestar]

Most great players are going to beat up on poor defenses.

Please note the hi-lighted portion of the original post and you will note that is what he was saying..


We all know that Brandon Marshall has put up some EXCELLENT statistics the past two seasons... He's been the #1 receiver for the Broncos, and Jay Cutler's favorite target....

Here are his stats from his career:

http://i43.tinypic.com/5khlvk.jpg

Back to back years with 100+ receptions, and 1000+ yard seasons.

Brandon was the MOST targeted player in the league last season...

http://i44.tinypic.com/348nfvc.jpg

He was thrown to 174 times, and yet had the second to last % of catches among the most targeted receivers in the NFL.


The most INTERESTING statistic is this:

http://i40.tinypic.com/1zx60de.jpg

Marshall is most VALUABLE and AFFECTIVE against the WEAKER teams in the league. Look at his TD numbers against teams with +.500 winning %... ZERO, 0


Don't get too caught up with Brandon's stats. They look nice, but in reality... He's pretty useless against the better teams. 4.5 receptions and 53.5 yards against winning teams is very AVERAGE.

Like my father always told me when I played baseball. I could DOMINATE the game against cheap competition and look like a hero... But if I play the real deal and look average, I'm nothing special.... And he was right.

Don't get caught up with Brandon Marshall and his diva like ways. He's one 911 call away from being suspended, and he CLEARLY doesn't want to be a part of the new Denver Broncos. I like him, but he doesn't want to commit to this team, and I've had enough of his crap.

:logo:

[Shazam!]

One of the most telling stats is 0 TDs in 3 must win games that were all losses at the end of the season.

[LoyalSoldier]

No sorry can't use those stats. Forbidden.

[Peerless]

It make sense, B4B, but in fairness to Marshall, a player generally is going to do
have a harder time against better teams. That is why they are better teams.

-----

True. All you guys saying this are correct. :beer:

But the GAP between the two... and the ZERO touchdowns just, simply really stood out to me.

[topscribe]

Please note the hi-lighted portion of the original post and you will note that is what he was saying..

That seems to be ego talking there. If he does as well against the "Real Deal,"
then whether the competition is indeed the Real Deal comes into question,
because aren't they supposed to be more adept at stopping people?

-----

[topscribe]

True. All you guys saying this are correct. :beer:

But the GAP between the two... and the ZERO touchdowns just, simply really stand out to me.

Marshall was NOT adept at scoring touchdowns, face it. He had 104 catches
and yardage that would wrap the world, but . . . what . . . five TDs?

And touchdowns are the name of the game. John Bena (MHR), in his radio
program this evening, was going over the TD factor of the top receivers, and
Marshall was nowhere near any of them in that category.

So that reverts to a question I asked elsewhere: do I want a superstar who
catches the ball all over the field between the 20s, or do I want one who gets
first downs and scores touchdowns?

Well, what I want are wins. And TDs translate to wins (assuming we have
picked ourselves up off the bottom defensively).

Orton is a Red Zone QB, and he achieved that, never having thrown a single
pass to Marshall. Graham, Scheffler, Hillis, Royal, and Stokley are Red Zone
personnel. And now we have a Red Zone coach.

Marshall has never been a Red Zone receiver. Maybe he could be yet, but he
hasn't so far.

-----

[LoyalSoldier]

True. All you guys saying this are correct. :beer:

But the GAP between the two... and the ZERO touchdowns just, simply really stood out to me.

However the question is how much was placed on Cutler? If we truly get on Cutler's case for hi splay against winning teams wouldn't that naturally reflect on Marshall's stats?

[Elevation inc]

Meh after this off-season i just dont care anymore. i will let the season determine my opinion now. if marshall is here cool if he aint whatever.

All i care about is the 53 players that will be here on the field next year to compete....no more soft BS....just play football hard and for the team....

[topscribe]

However the question is how much was placed on Cutler? If we truly get on Cutler's case for hi splay against winning teams wouldn't that naturally reflect on Marshall's stats?

Who was it who said it?--"You are what your record says you are."

-----

[BroncoWave]

Who was it who said it?--"You are what your record says you are."

-----

Bill Parcells

[topscribe]

Bill Parcells

Thanks. It was rhetorical. :D

-----

[BroncoWave]

Thanks. It was rhetorical. :D

-----

Ah ok, well for anyone who didn't know then! :D

[elsid13]

And so it begins, the justification that Marshall isn't a good player and has no talent.

[CoachChaz]

I think the bottom line here is that Marshall is NOT irreplaceable. Yes he has talent and skill. No one will deny that. But we simply have to compare facts to make a decision. Numbers are great, but there is often a reason why those numbers exist. In this new offense...when you look at the guy that will have 100 receptions in a season...you'll be looking at #19. Eddie in the slot is going to see ALOT of passes. Brandon's routes will be relegated to working the sideline alot and the sideline is basically another defender. The slot receiver is usually the closest to the QB and has the most space and QB's have more room for error with them. If everyone played, I'd be willing to bet Royal out-catches Marshall 100-70...with or without Cutler under center.

That being said...Royal is the guy that we are going to want to lock up long term. A possession guy on the outside can be found if Brandon leaves

[SoCalImport]

And so it begins, the justification that Marshall isn't a good player and has no talent.

Oversimplification and putting words into other peoples posts?

Hasn't been as good as his catches and yards would lead you to believe, and NO ONE, but NO ONE in here has said he "has no talent".

[Fan in Exile]

These stats are pretty worthless in determining Marshall's rank among other receivers. What we would need would be how he did compared to how other guys did against those same teams. Just because he did worse doesn't really mean anything. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr take a look here I think they do a fairly good job in ranking Marshall, and he comes out 42.

I'm just looking out for the right use of stats on this one. The football outsiders number adjusts for quality of the defense and compares it to how the other WR's did in those same types of situations.

The point about not getting enough TD's is pretty superficial as well, since the whole team had problems in the RZ.

[Tned]

We all know that Brandon Marshall has put up some EXCELLENT statistics the past two seasons... He's been the #1 receiver for the Broncos, and Jay Cutler's favorite target....

Here are his stats from his career:

http://i43.tinypic.com/5khlvk.jpg

Back to back years with 100+ receptions, and 1000+ yard seasons.

Brandon was the MOST targeted player in the league last season...

http://i44.tinypic.com/348nfvc.jpg

He was thrown to 174 times, and yet had the second to last % of catches among the most targeted receivers in the NFL.


The most INTERESTING statistic is this:

http://i40.tinypic.com/1zx60de.jpg

Marshall is most VALUABLE and AFFECTIVE against the WEAKER teams in the league. Look at his TD numbers against teams with +.500 winning %... ZERO, 0


Don't get too caught up with Brandon's stats. They look nice, but in reality... He's pretty useless against the better teams. 4.5 receptions and 53.5 yards against winning teams is very AVERAGE.

Like my father always told me when I played baseball. I could DOMINATE the game against cheap competition and look like a hero... But if I play the real deal and look average, I'm nothing special.... And he was right.

Don't get caught up with Brandon Marshall and his diva like ways. He's one 911 call away from being suspended, and he CLEARLY doesn't want to be a part of the new Denver Broncos. I like him, but he doesn't want to commit to this team, and I've had enough of his crap.

:logo:

Good job digging the stuff up, but unfortunately stats alone don't always show the full picture. There is a reason that NFL talking heads and media types fawn over Marshall, and that is because he is an elite talent (even if his off the field behavior might not be so elite).


that is an outstanding find thanks for digging it up.. Next time can you provide a link? there will be a lot of folks that like him alot that will not believe those Numbers without seeing it themselves..

although they make sense..

One number I saw that seems to be wrong was he was targeted 181 times in 2008 not the 174 in the one graph..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/broncos/

Hey, if it makes you guys feel better about the situation to build these "he's horrible" fanatasies, well... I guess, whatever helps you sleep at night.

[lex]

Marshall was NOT adept at scoring touchdowns, face it. He had 104 catches
and yardage that would wrap the world, but . . . what . . . five TDs?

And touchdowns are the name of the game. John Bena (MHR), in his radio
program this evening, was going over the TD factor of the top receivers, and
Marshall was nowhere near any of them in that category.

So that reverts to a question I asked elsewhere: do I want a superstar who
catches the ball all over the field between the 20s, or do I want one who gets
first downs and scores touchdowns?

Well, what I want are wins. And TDs translate to wins (assuming we have
picked ourselves up off the bottom defensively).

Orton is a Red Zone QB, and he achieved that, never having thrown a single
pass to Marshall. Graham, Scheffler, Hillis, Royal, and Stokley are Red Zone
personnel. And now we have a Red Zone coach.

Marshall has never been a Red Zone receiver. Maybe he could be yet, but he
hasn't so far.

-----

Thats not true at all. Marshall might be the best in the league at extending to catch while toe tapping the sidelines.

All this stat means is that, if youre a one dimensional team (or a ream that relies heavily on one player), good teams are good at taking that one thing away. Thats where balance comes into play.

Take the 2007 New England Patriots for example. They were extremely reliant on the pass. Teams that didnt match up against them were torched and NE loved pouring on the points. They averaged around 36 points a game in the regular season when they got to play 1-15 Miami twice and so on. But then came the playoffs where they played the better teams. Their scoring average went from 36 to 22 points a game.

Then take our 1998 team. We averaged around 31 one points a game as a team that heavily featured the run. I say heavily featured the run because we were great at it. But one of the reasons we were great at the run was because we had all elements of balance including a HOF QB who the defenses had to respect. The 1998 Broncos went from averaging 31 points a game in the regular season to around 33 points in the postseason where there were better teams (and it could have been more as we won every game going away). Why did that happen? Its because we had balance. We could use one strength to support another. Take the SB against Atlanta for example. We knew they would be focused on the run, which they were. So we torched them with the pass...and then TD got his anyways as he still had over 100 yards that game.

This all ties into why Marshall doesnt get big numbers against good team. Its not that Marshall cant perform against good teams. The catches he makes against the Chiefs and Raiders can also be made against New England and Indy. But the difference is the better teams are better at taking your strength away especially when you lack balance. When you have balance there is a, sort of, synergism that takes place that allows you to overcome the better defenses.

[MadMax]

Hey thanks for taking the time to put those stats together they are pretty telling. But...

Didn't we say it was Shanahan's fault that this team did so bad against good teams and scored so few touchdowns? Then it was Jay Cutler's fault that we had all yardage but no touchdowns? Now Marshall isn't good for the same reason? I think these stats are way to interrelated with how our whole team has performed the past few years. Our whole team has been expert at accruing garbage statistics and beating up on weak defenses.

None of the players we've routed for the past few years were "elite", but they all looked like they could be with just a little better performance or a few less turnovers. I was hoping to see that potential finally blossom under McD for JC and BM, oh well. Just give me someone to root for, is it football season yet?

[topscribe]

Thats not true at all. Marshall might be the best in the league at extending to catch while toe tapping the sidelines.

All this stat means is that, if youre a one dimensional team (or a ream that relies heavily on one player), good teams are good at taking that one thing away. Thats where balance comes into play.

Take the 2007 New England Patriots for example. They were extremely reliant on the pass. Teams that didnt match up against them were torched and NE loved pouring on the points. They averaged around 36 points a game in the regular season when they got to play 1-15 Miami twice and so on. But then came the playoffs where they played the better teams. Their scoring average went from 36 to 22 points a game.

Then take our 1998 team. We averaged around 31 one points a game as a team that heavily featured the run. I say heavily featured the run because we were great at it. But one of the reasons we were great at the run was because we had all elements of balance including a HOF QB who the defenses had to respect. The 1998 Broncos went from averaging 31 points a game in the regular season to around 33 points in the postseason where there were better teams (and it could have been more as we won every game going away). Why did that happen? Its because we had balance. We could use one strength to support another. Take the SB against Atlanta for example. We knew they would be focused on the run, which they were. So we torched them with the pass...and then TD got his anyways as he still had over 100 yards that game.

This all ties into why Marshall doesnt get big numbers against good team. Its not that Marshall cant perform against good teams. The catches he makes against the Chiefs and Raiders can also be made against New England and Indy. But the difference is the better teams are better at taking your strength away especially when you lack balance. When you have balance there is a, sort of, synergism that takes place that allows you to overcome the better defenses.

You're taking up this argument with me? First of all, this in no way corresponds
to the post to which you responded.

Second, go to this post (http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=677822&postcount=10), then try to figure out why you feel you need to argue
this point with me . . .

-----

[topscribe]

Hey, if it makes you guys feel better about the situation to build these "he's horrible" fanatasies, well... I guess, whatever helps you sleep at night.

When you say "you guys," I don't know whether you're including me since I
have been active in this thread.

But all I was pointing out was that this mighty #2 offense in yards was #18 in
touchdowns, and Marshall was a part of that offense, having logged an
astounding five (5) touchdowns all season.

That Marshall needs improvement in that area is not building a " 'he's horrible'
fantasy" but just pointing out he needs improvement in that area before he
can consider himself among that "elite" group. And he does.

That is not fantasy; that is fact, coming from one who has supported and
even defended him all along. I'm not taking offense or even inferring for sure
that you intended to include me. I'm just explaining my own position for
clarification.

-----

[lex]

You're taking up this argument with me? First of all, this in no way corresponds
to the post to which you responded.

Second, go to this post (http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=677822&postcount=10), then try to figure out why you feel you need to argue
this point with me . . .

-----

Did you not say this was a shortcoming of Marshall and that he needs improvement in this area?


Marshall was NOT adept at scoring touchdowns, face it. He had 104 catches
and yardage that would wrap the world, but . . . what . . . five TDs?

And touchdowns are the name of the game. John Bena (MHR), in his radio
program this evening, was going over the TD factor of the top receivers, and
Marshall was nowhere near any of them in that category.

So that reverts to a question I asked elsewhere: do I want a superstar who
catches the ball all over the field between the 20s, or do I want one who gets
first downs and scores touchdowns?

Well, what I want are wins. And TDs translate to wins (assuming we have
picked ourselves up off the bottom defensively).

Orton is a Red Zone QB, and he achieved that, never having thrown a single
pass to Marshall. Graham, Scheffler, Hillis, Royal, and Stokley are Red Zone
personnel. And now we have a Red Zone coach.

Marshall has never been a Red Zone receiver. Maybe he could be yet, but he
hasn't so far.

-----


When you say "you guys," I don't know whether you're including me since I
have been active in this thread.

But all I was pointing out was that this mighty #2 offense in yards was #18 in
touchdowns, and Marshall was a part of that offense, having logged an
astounding five (5) touchdowns all season.

That Marshall needs improvement in that area is not building a " 'he's horrible'
fantasy" but just pointing out he needs improvement in that area before he
can consider himself among that "elite" group. And he does.

That is not fantasy; that is fact, coming from one who has supported and
even defended him all along. I'm not taking offense or even inferring for sure
that you intended to include me. I'm just explaining my own position for
clarification.

-----

...yup, it looks like you did.

[topscribe]

Did you not say this was a shortcoming of Marshall and that he needs improvement in this area?





...yup, it looks like you did.

Okay, yup, you win. Marshall has five (count 'em, five) TDs to prove he is All-World at making TDs.

My bad. How silly of me . . .

-----

[lex]

Okay, yup, you win. Marshall has five (count 'em, five) TDs to prove he is All-World at making TDs.

My bad. How silly of me . . .

-----


Look at it this way. In spite of having a WR that good who demanded a lot of attention int he red zone, our running game still had problems punching it in. Like Ive said countless times, TDs werent much of a problem when we had Hillis and Pittman going. Theres a good reason for that. You need the running game and the passing game to help each other because theres less field to work with. Its not as simple as saying, "he had 6 TDs so he sucks." Its not like they get inside the 20 and suddenly Marshall cant catch.

[topscribe]

Look at it this way. In spite of having a WR that good who demanded a lot of attention int he red zone, our running game still had problems punching it in. Like Ive said countless times, TDs werent much of a problem when we had Hillis and Pittman going. Theres a good reason for that. You need the running game and the passing game to help each other because theres less field to work with. Its not as simple as saying, "he had 6 TDs so he sucks." Its not like they get inside the 20 and suddenly Marshall cant catch.

"You are what your record says you are."

That offense had trouble scoring. Marshall was part of that offense. Marshall's
stats reflect that he was part of that difficulty.

What more is there to say? :coffee:

-----

[powderaddict]

Good research and good post B4.

These stats definately do paint part of the picture. I believe Marshall is a very talented receiver, and does command respect from defenses opening up things for other receivers/players. He's also a beast after the catch.

There is no way I'm goint to believe the Broncos offense is better without Marshall than with Marshall.

That said -

How can he think the Broncos are going to commit top $$$ to him with the issues he has had? He's still not 100% out of the woods with the current issues he's had, he's had major surgery but has stayed away from Broncos HQ (have they even had a chance to assess his progress?), and has not shown that he can stay out of trouble.

He is a talent, he helps the offense, but I worry about his ability to stay on the field, and I worry he will turn into a TO/Ochocinco type that will cause more trouble and distractions than his production is worth.

[Thnikkaman]

When you say "you guys," I don't know whether you're including me since I
have been active in this thread.

But all I was pointing out was that this mighty #2 offense in yards was #18 in
touchdowns, and Marshall was a part of that offense, having logged an
astounding five (5) touchdowns all season.

That Marshall needs improvement in that area is not building a " 'he's horrible'
fantasy" but just pointing out he needs improvement in that area before he
can consider himself among that "elite" group. And he does.

That is not fantasy; that is fact, coming from one who has supported and
even defended him all along. I'm not taking offense or even inferring for sure
that you intended to include me. I'm just explaining my own position for
clarification.

-----

I totally agree with this and have this to add. Marshal's actions this offseason
are sending the message that its not about playing team ball. I think he is a
great athlete, but like Cutler, still has much to develop on the mental side of
the game. I want to see him develop that as a Denver Bronco since I think
he is capable of greatness. I don't think he is quite ready to make that step.

[Northman]

Im sorry, even though Marshall has his share of issues to try and make it look like the guy is a scrub is ridiculous. There are so many other variables that go into one's production on the field. The fact is, Denver has been terrible inside the 20 the last few years. Then throw in the fact about the type of play calling. Then throw in the fact who was facing him on the other side of the ball. I dont think ive ever seen anyone on this site say Brandon is the best WR in the game. He's a guy who holds a lot of potential for the future if he manages get to get his health and personal life straightened out. But considering what he has done with all that other crap going on is a major plus to him. Again, Brandon has his issues and if he isnt a Bronco anymore im cool with that as Coach put it, he can be replaced. However, to try and come in here and spit on the guy for what he does on the field is just flat out moronic. Of course, i have to wonder what the definition of a good team is? Last year, in the third game of the season Marshall had 3 TD's against the SD Chargers. You know, the team that actually made the playoffs and beat the Indianapolis Colts in round 1? The same team that gave everything they got against the reigning SB champs? I would consider that a good team. If your going to hate on a player, at least make it legitimate.

[lex]

"You are what your record says you are."

That offense had trouble scoring. Marshall was part of that offense. Marshall's
stats reflect that he was part of that difficulty.

What more is there to say? :coffee:

-----

Theres a lot to say but youre just trying to save face at this point and Im getting bored with it.

[Tned]

Im sorry, even though Marshall has his share of issues to try and make it look like the guy is a scrub is ridiculous.

...

If your going to hate on a player, at least make it legitimate.

Great post. I highlighted your first and last sentence, because they nail this situation so well.

I understand the need for fans to rationalize situations, because like with other 'bumps' in life, it is simply easier to 'create' a version of the truth that fits the situation, than deal with the reality of the situation. Last year Marshall is one of the elite WR's in the league, this year he's an overrated scrub that had inflated numbers, because the other overinflated scrub threw to him 180 times....

We also saw that during the Cutler fiasco, as people started to make the case for how Orton is a more talented and better QB than Cutler (if that was the case, the Bears would have gotten the two first round picks with Cutler, rather than giving them up).

[Tned]

Theres a lot to say but youre just trying to save face at this point and Im getting bored with it.

Lex, keep it on topic, not about other posters.

[topscribe]

Im sorry, even though Marshall has his share of issues to try and make it look like the guy is a scrub is ridiculous. There are so many other variables that go into one's production on the field. The fact is, Denver has been terrible inside the 20 the last few years. Then throw in the fact about the type of play calling. Then throw in the fact who was facing him on the other side of the ball. I dont think ive ever seen anyone on this site say Brandon is the best WR in the game. He's a guy who holds a lot of potential for the future if he manages get to get his health and personal life straightened out. But considering what he has done with all that other crap going on is a major plus to him. Again, Brandon has his issues and if he isnt a Bronco anymore im cool with that as Coach put it, he can be replaced. However, to try and come in here and spit on the guy for what he does on the field is just flat out moronic. Of course, i have to wonder what the definition of a good team is? Last year, in the third game of the season Marshall had 3 TD's against the SD Chargers. You know, the team that actually made the playoffs and beat the Indianapolis Colts in round 1? The same team that gave everything they got against the reigning SB champs? I would consider that a good team. If your going to hate on a player, at least make it legitimate.

I believe Marshall has the potential to be the best wide receiver in the game,
and I have believed that from the start. He did not amass more than 100
receptions and 1,000 yards two seasons in a row by being a "scrub."

My point is that he apparently wants to be paid at the "elite" level, but he
has to make a few improvements before he can be considered among the
"elites." One is his performance in the Red Zone. Another is realizing that the
important aspect of a team is . . . well, the team.

The name of the game is win. It takes a team to win, not one guy making 100
catches between the 20s.

As you mentioned, Marshall has had issues. One of those issues is a long
track record of trouble seemingly finding him, and it goes way back into his
college days. It has gotten so bad that we still do not know whether the NFL
or the law is going to allow us to see him play this year.

Marshall has improvements on and off the field to make before he can be
included among the elite . . . or paid as such.

-----

[CoachChaz]

Im sorry, even though Marshall has his share of issues to try and make it look like the guy is a scrub is ridiculous. There are so many other variables that go into one's production on the field. The fact is, Denver has been terrible inside the 20 the last few years. Then throw in the fact about the type of play calling. Then throw in the fact who was facing him on the other side of the ball. I dont think ive ever seen anyone on this site say Brandon is the best WR in the game. He's a guy who holds a lot of potential for the future if he manages get to get his health and personal life straightened out. But considering what he has done with all that other crap going on is a major plus to him. Again, Brandon has his issues and if he isnt a Bronco anymore im cool with that as Coach put it, he can be replaced. However, to try and come in here and spit on the guy for what he does on the field is just flat out moronic. Of course, i have to wonder what the definition of a good team is? Last year, in the third game of the season Marshall had 3 TD's against the SD Chargers. You know, the team that actually made the playoffs and beat the Indianapolis Colts in round 1? The same team that gave everything they got against the reigning SB champs? I would consider that a good team. If your going to hate on a player, at least make it legitimate.

Not to bust your bubble, but it was game 2 and he had 18 catches with only 1 TD. Second time around he had 6 catches and 0 TD's. His only multi-TD game came against KC, where he had 2

[Lonestar]

I do not think anyone has called him a lousy WR in fact everyone agrees he can be a beast.. but if the beast for whatever reason does not show up in BIG games, then what use is he.. certainly not worth a gazillion dollar up front bonus..

I think their is way more to this fiasco, someone mentioned he has not been around to allow the medical staff to evaluate him, maybe he knows that he is about used up and will never get better than he was at the EOY 2008.. maybe he knows the hand nerve healing issue has not progressed like they had hoped.

He might be able to fool some other team doctors but knows he can't get this one to slide through ours because they know him to well..

food for thought.. sounds to me he is trying to get one big payday before his playing days are over..

[Thnikkaman]

North and Tned. We aren't calling him a Scrub by any means and please don't put those
words in our mouths. Marshal is a gamer physically. But in his head, he doesn't get it.

Here is to hoping that he eventually will.

[lex]

Lex, keep it on topic, not about other posters.

Trotting out corny cliches that dont really apply, isnt really keeping it relevant either but whatever.

[Northman]

I believe Marshall has the potential to be the best wide receiver in the game,
and I have believed that from the start. He did not amass more than 100
yards and 1,000 yards two seasons in a row by being a "scrub."

My point is that he apparently wants to be paid at the "elite" level, but he
has to make a few improvements before he can be considered among the
"elites." One is his performance in the Red Zone. Another is realizing that the
important aspect of a team is . . . well, the team.

The name of the game is win. It takes a team to win, not one guy making 100
catches between the 20s.

As you mentioned, Marshall has had issues. One of those issues is a long
track record of trouble seemingly finding him, and it goes way back into his
college days. It has gotten so bad that we still do not know whether the NFL
or the law is going to allow us to see him play this year.

Marshall has improvements on and off the field to make before he can be
included among the elite . . . or paid as such.

-----

Absolutely. But those are character flaws, not performance flaws. From what ive seen Brandon leaves it all out on the field, he's a competitor. Do i think he deserves Elite money? No, but not because i dont think he's worth it professionally. He would definitely have to straighten up his off the field issues before i would even consider it. So while i think he is making the wrong move right now in regards to his wanting elite money i dont agree with the OP or the topic at hand. Hence why i pointed to the Charger game and why i think its kind of silly to try and skew stats to fit some sort of agenda. The issue with Marshall should be his issues outside the football field. Not his actual on the field performance which i believe is pretty good for a 3rd year receiver.

[Northman]

Not to bust your bubble, but it was game 2 and he had 18 catches with only 1 TD. Second time around he had 6 catches and 0 TD's. His only multi-TD game came against KC, where he had 2

Fair enough, i thought he had more. But my point still stands that he had a great game against a "good" team.

[Tned]

Trotting out corny cliches that dont really apply, isnt really keeping it relevant either but whatever.

If you think corny cliches should be against the forum rules, then by all means start a Town Hall discussion on it and see if others agree, but in the meantime, STOP making threads about other posters and focus on the topics.

[Tned]

Removed as off topic

Lex, end of discussion. Anything else along these lines, which is off topic, will be deleted.

If you want to discuss how the message board is run, then post in the Town Hall Forum.

[topscribe]

Absolutely. But those are character flaws, not performance flaws. From what ive seen Brandon leaves it all out on the field, he's a competitor. Do i think he deserves Elite money? No, but not because i dont think he's worth it professionally. He would definitely have to straighten up his off the field issues before i would even consider it. So while i think he is making the wrong move right now in regards to his wanting elite money i dont agree with the OP or the topic at hand. Hence why i pointed to the Charger game and why i think its kind of silly to try and skew stats to fit some sort of agenda. The issue with Marshall should be his issues outside the football field. Not his actual on the field performance which i believe is pretty good for a 3rd year receiver.

Well, my friend, I don't agree with a lot of it, either. And I don't mean to detract
from Marshall's accomplishments on the field: I was only pointing out an area
where he needs to improve, and five TDs over a season shows that he does.
That's all.

But I have already explained to the OP that nobody is going to have the same
success against the better teams that he can against the weaker ones. That
same argument was used against Cutler . . . and against Orton! A strong team
is a strong team because its opponents are not as successful against them as
they are against others.

But I'm just trying to be objective, is all. For some reason, however, that has
seemed to open me to attack. (Not from you--I'm not accusing you of that.)
When you do that, you often get it from both sides.

*sigh*

-----

[dogfish]

I'm sorry, are you butt hurt?

no, but i AM freakin' irritated. . . .




And so it begins, the justification that Marshall isn't a good player and has no talent.

absolutely-- this is what broncos fans do. . . .


I think the bottom line here is that Marshall is NOT irreplaceable. Yes he has talent and skill. No one will deny that. But we simply have to compare facts to make a decision. Numbers are great, but there is often a reason why those numbers exist. In this new offense...when you look at the guy that will have 100 receptions in a season...you'll be looking at #19. Eddie in the slot is going to see ALOT of passes. Brandon's routes will be relegated to working the sideline alot and the sideline is basically another defender. The slot receiver is usually the closest to the QB and has the most space and QB's have more room for error with them. If everyone played, I'd be willing to bet Royal out-catches Marshall 100-70...with or without Cutler under center.

That being said...Royal is the guy that we are going to want to lock up long term. A possession guy on the outside can be found if Brandon leaves

wes welker out-caught moss 110-70 last year. . . who'd you rather have on your team?

i know, marshall's no moss, but he IS the only big, physical receiver we have on the team. . . with his ability to wall off corners with his big frame, compete for jump balls and particularly his incredible run after the catch skills, he brings a lot to the table that none of our other receivers can do. . . does this mean that we can't win without him? of course not, but then again i don't really expect us to win with him this year, either. . . but i think it's highly probably that we won't be as good a football team without him, both now and going forward. . . and most importantly to me, marshall is a young talent-- while we may have enough other weapons to replace him this year, what happens when stokley retires and chef walks in FA or gets traded? all of a sudden all the firepower we had on offense coming into this year is reduced to eddie royal and a bunch of system receivers. . . i sure hope eddie can step up to the challenge of being a number one receiver-- there are a few guys his size that are pulling it off, but it's not common. . .

enh, what the hell does it matter? i don't know why i'm even discussing it. . . he's probably gone, i suppose i may as well just get used to the thought of orton to gaffney and lloyd. . . . :tsk:


Im sorry, even though Marshall has his share of issues to try and make it look like the guy is a scrub is ridiculous. There are so many other variables that go into one's production on the field. The fact is, Denver has been terrible inside the 20 the last few years. Then throw in the fact about the type of play calling. Then throw in the fact who was facing him on the other side of the ball. I dont think ive ever seen anyone on this site say Brandon is the best WR in the game. He's a guy who holds a lot of potential for the future if he manages get to get his health and personal life straightened out. But considering what he has done with all that other crap going on is a major plus to him. Again, Brandon has his issues and if he isnt a Bronco anymore im cool with that as Coach put it, he can be replaced. However, to try and come in here and spit on the guy for what he does on the field is just flat out moronic. Of course, i have to wonder what the definition of a good team is? Last year, in the third game of the season Marshall had 3 TD's against the SD Chargers. You know, the team that actually made the playoffs and beat the Indianapolis Colts in round 1? The same team that gave everything they got against the reigning SB champs? I would consider that a good team. If your going to hate on a player, at least make it legitimate.

you may have gotten the numbers wrong, but beating a corner coming off an all-pro year for EIGHTEEN catches and a score is a freakin' feat. . . and if we'd fed marshall on fades in the red zone the way other teams do with their big receivers, it's almost inevitable that he would have had more touchdowns over the past two years. . .

[broncohead]

dogfish was right on the money. The only way you can see if marshall wasn't good against .500+ teams is to compare other recievers against .500 teams.

[dogfish]

dogfish was right on the money. The only way you can see if marshall wasn't good against .500+ teams is to compare other recievers against .500 teams.

larry fitzgerald caught twelve TDs last year-- only four of them came against teams that were over .500. . . . i guess larry fitzgerald is actually pretty useless!

nurrr, nurrrr. . . .

[SM19]

Oh good. Another post where we try to uncover the real truth about a player through statistics, and we do it by shrinking the statistical sample.

[LRtagger]

larry fitzgerald caught twelve TDs last year-- only four of them came against teams that were over .500. . . . i guess larry fitzgerald is actually pretty useless!

nurrr, nurrrr. . . .


Right, but how many +.500 teams did the Cards actually play?

And how many TD catches did he have in the playoffs and SB?

No one is claiming that Marshall is useless, but he is not as irreplacable as some seem to think. It is a matter of risk vs. reward. Is it worth risking $50mil on a guy that is likely miss at least 8 games over the next 5 years?

I would say it is more likely than not that if he gets a new contract now, he will miss at least a percentage of those contractual games. In a 5 year contract I would put money he will miss a min of 8 games.

I don't see what the big deal is in playing out one more year, making $3mil, and accepting a huge deal next year. Hell, if he has another huge year as our #1 it will mean an even BIGGER contract than what he would get this year whether with us or with another team. Seems fishy that he would hold out coming off two major injuries and a court date coming up.

I mean how hard is it? Play 16 games at a level you are capable of playing, stay out of trouble, make $3mil, THEN sign a contract for $8mil per. Seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.

[broncofanatic1987]

If Marshall were as good as some people make him out to be, he would produce against good teams.

Moss produces against good teams. Owens, at least in his prime, produced against good teams. Rice, John Taylor, and other impact players at the receiver position produced against good teams. Apparently Marshall isn't so good at producing when he's up against some of the better competition.

He wasn't much of a factor in the last 3 games of the season when he didn't score any touchdowns. Three game lead in the division with three games to go and the star receiver was a non-factor on the scoreboard.

[LRtagger]

Also, after seeing what Moss did in NE, why WOULDN'T Marshall want to play a year with McDaniels before renegotiating? I mean, he catches 70 balls and 15 TDs hes going to get a lot more money next year than he will right now.

[dogfish]

No one is claiming that Marshall is useless

actually, the OP said:


He's pretty useless against the better teams.

so, pretty close-- not word for word, but the term "useless" was in fact used. . . which is silly, IMO-- for one thing, he did produce at least something in almost every game (not to mention opening things up for other guys by drawing most of the doubles, run blocking, etc), and even the biggest stars tend to have greater statistical output against weaker opponents. . . that's just logical. . . yes, some megastars like michael jordan and barry sanders just light it up no matter who they're playing, because their talent is that transcendant, but marshall is a two year starter from a small school-- he's dramtically outperformed expectations and should only continue to grow. . .



It is a matter of risk vs. reward. Is it worth risking $50mil on a guy that is likely miss at least 8 games over the next 5 years?

I would say it is more likely than not that if he gets a new contract now, he will miss at least a percentage of those contractual games. In a 5 year contract I would put money he will miss a min of 8 games.

I don't see what the big deal is in playing out one more year, making $3mil, and accepting a huge deal next year. Hell, if he has another huge year as our #1 it will mean an even BIGGER contract than what he would get this year whether with us or with another team. Seems fishy that he would hold out coming off two major injuries and a court date coming up.

I mean how hard is it? Play 16 games at a level you are capable of playing, stay out of trouble, make $3mil, THEN sign a contract for $8mil per. Seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.

FTR, i agree with pretty much all of this. . . i'm NOT exempting brandon from his share of the responsibility for the situation-- naturally i don't love it when a guy holds out, especially under these circumstances. . . i can understand that he knows how underpaid he is for his production, but i'm also an advocate for refusing to redo his contract until after the season OR trading him. . .

i posted what i did because this sour grapes, if he doesn't want to be here then he isn't that good anyways shit gets on my nerves. . . he's a damn good player, very competitive with an excellent work ethic, and he still has room to get much better. . . i hate to see a player like that leave. . .

hey, i know it's not "the end of the world" or some of that melodramatic BS that some people like to portray :rolleyes:, but i don't see how losing him make us a better team, and that's my only concern. . . players hold out and/or demand trades or new contracts all the time, it's part of sports-- i really don't understand why some fans get so pissy about it. . . i think a lot of it comes from underlying resentment against the salaries that athletes make, but the bottom line is that if they had the leverage, a LOT of the people that castigate these guys on message boards would do the exact same thing. . . i don't blame anyone for being irritated about the situation (i'm not happy about it myself), but i can't help but comment on some of the reactionary "he wasn't that good to begin with" type of responses. . .

i've watched every snap the guy has taken-- he's plenty good. . . .

[dogfish]

If Marshall were as good as some people make him out to be, he would produce against good teams.

Moss produces against good teams. Owens, at least in his prime, produced against good teams. Rice, John Taylor, and other impact players at the receiver position produced against good teams. Apparently Marshall isn't so good at producing when he's up against some of the better competition.

He wasn't much of a factor in the last 3 games of the season when he didn't score any touchdowns. Three game lead in the division with three games to go and the star receiver was a non-factor on the scoreboard.


so a guy with two years starting experience has to be as good as three of the best to ever play, when they were in their prime, to be reagrded as a very good player? okay. . .

eddie royal didn't score any TDs the last three weeks either, does that mean he's not that good? and does marshall's 10 catch, 120 yard performance against buffalo not count since he didn't score? let's be honest, both our problems in the red zone and our late season collapse were TEAM problems--no way the blame belongs on brandon marshall's doorstep any more than any other individual. . . if clady or kuper asks for a trade next, will somebody say "he didn't plow open holes for any TDs the last three weeks, he's not that good anyways". . .?

if anything, maybe some of the blame should go to our medical staff for not properly diagnosing and dealing with marshall's hip injury. . .

[LRtagger]

I agree, I don't like the idea of losing him either...but IMO I think Bowlen is in theright here and Marshall is in the wrong. We will miss him on the team if he is traded, but it's not something we cant move past.

[broncofanatic1987]

so a guy with two years starting experience has to be as good as three of the best to ever play, when they were in their prime, to be reagrded as a very good player? okay. . .

eddie royal didn't score any TDs the last three weeks either, does that mean he's not that good? and does marshall's 10 catch, 120 yard performance against buffalo not count since he didn't score? let's be honest, both our problems in the red zone and our late season collapse were TEAM problems--no way the blame belongs on brandon marshall's doorstep any more than any other individual. . . if clady or kuper asks for a trade next, will somebody say "he didn't plow open holes for any TDs the last three weeks, he's not that good anyways". . .?

if anything, maybe some of the blame should go to our medical staff for not properly diagnosing and dealing with marshall's hip injury. . .

The point of my post was that Marshall is not as good as some people make him out to be.

I think he is a very talented receiver and the Broncos should hold on to him. They should do it on their terms and not his.

[elsid13]

There are the questions you need to be asking yourself when post stats like this and attempt to take very simple sabermetric approach to multivariable equation.

Who was drawing the number #1 corner?
Where was zone coverage rolled to?
In the red zone which wide receiver was getting bracketed by corner and safety?

If you answer all those question with Marshall, then you understand why he important to this team. Something that measured outside of looking at numbers. The player that going to suffer most from Marshall leaving is Royal. Royal is the the man that opponent's DCs will take away from the QB.

[horsepig]

And so it begins, the justification that Marshall isn't a good player and has no talent.

BM has been a favorite of mine, however I'm a big believer in "real" stats. I.E. you get 1 point for a 5 yard catch on 2'nd and 8. You get 5 points for a 14 yard catch on 3'rd and 12, you get -3 points for an 8 yard catch on third and 9, etc...

For instance if you use those parameters on defense, last year's Bronco s were the worst defense ever.

He did not just disappear in some big games against quality opponents, he also pointed fingers and whined a lot! He also ran some "Randy Moss routes" in those games wwhere he was getting the "business" from the defense. That ticked me off. Shutup, go back to the huddle and beat those buttheads on the next play!

[horsepig]

I still want him here. He is a rare talent if healthy and into the game.

[horsepig]

I do not think anyone has called him a lousy WR in fact everyone agrees he can be a beast.. but if the beast for whatever reason does not show up in BIG games, then what use is he.. certainly not worth a gazillion dollar up front bonus..

I think their is way more to this fiasco, someone mentioned he has not been around to allow the medical staff to evaluate him, maybe he knows that he is about used up and will never get better than he was at the EOY 2008.. maybe he knows the hand nerve healing issue has not progressed like they had hoped.

He might be able to fool some other team doctors but knows he can't get this one to slide through ours because they know him to well..

food for thought.. sounds to me he is trying to get one big payday before his playing days are over..

Why can't these kids like BM negotiate a contract like Weigmann? Be professional about it and then get something that works for both sides.

Works for both sides is the key here.

[Lonestar]

Why can't these kids like BM negotiate a contract like Weigmann? Be professional about it and then get something that works for both sides.

Works for both sides is the key here.3

because weigman has had to work for his money over the last 12-13 years.. and BM has not figured it out yet..

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Reagardless of who we play, dude is a stud. He is an incredible talent and I have no real issue if he stays. HOWEVER, he does drop passes and he does fumble. If he is going to demand a mega-deal and doesn't wanna be in Denver, let him walk. He is a suspension just waiting to happen as it is.

[EMB6903]

We all know that Brandon Marshall has put up some EXCELLENT statistics the past two seasons... He's been the #1 receiver for the Broncos, and Jay Cutler's favorite target....

Here are his stats from his career:

http://i43.tinypic.com/5khlvk.jpg

Back to back years with 100+ receptions, and 1000+ yard seasons.

Brandon was the MOST targeted player in the league last season...

http://i44.tinypic.com/348nfvc.jpg

He was thrown to 174 times, and yet had the second to last % of catches among the most targeted receivers in the NFL.


The most INTERESTING statistic is this:

http://i40.tinypic.com/1zx60de.jpg

Marshall is most VALUABLE and AFFECTIVE against the WEAKER teams in the league. Look at his TD numbers against teams with +.500 winning %... ZERO, 0


Don't get too caught up with Brandon's stats. They look nice, but in reality... He's pretty useless against the better teams. 4.5 receptions and 53.5 yards against winning teams is very AVERAGE.

Like my father always told me when I played baseball. I could DOMINATE the game against cheap competition and look like a hero... But if I play the real deal and look average, I'm nothing special.... And he was right.

Don't get caught up with Brandon Marshall and his diva like ways. He's one 911 call away from being suspended, and he CLEARLY doesn't want to be a part of the new Denver Broncos. I like him, but he doesn't want to commit to this team, and I've had enough of his crap.

:logo:

Misleading garbage (no offense) this might have already been said sorry for not reading the entire thread but half of the balls Cutler threw to Marshall were HORRIBLE throws against double even triple teams..... not to mention how many times Marshall had a step on the defender and Jay under threw him.

that being said 4.5 receptions and over 50+ yards recieving isnt bad at all... Im sure thats above average as far as #1 WR's vs teams over .500

Lets take a look at how many times Marshall was "shut down" since hes been a starter.... how many times has that happened?

two three times only?

Marshall is one of the most consistent WR's in the league and deserves to get paid.... Either way hes staying in Denver whether he likes it or not.