McDaniels says Broncos will continue talking with Marshall

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12601175

With the agent representing receiver Brandon Marshall coming out to speak on behalf of Broncos owner Pat Bowlen, the Broncos have responded with the message they can speak for themselves.

"We met after Pat's meeting with Brandon and are going to continue our dialogue with Brandon and his representative," said Broncos coach Josh McDaniels. "We look forward to having Brandon at training camp."

Marshall and his agent, Kennard McGuire, have taken the offensive. McGuire told Fox 31 News that "there was a request for a trade. Mr. Bowlen has said that ownership will do everything in its power to accommodate his wishes."

However, there is no indication the Broncos will seek to deal Marshall, who is unhappy with his contract that will pay him $2.198 million this season, the final year of his deal.

Marshall has demonstrated his dissatisfaction with his contract by skipping the three-week, voluntary passing camp, then a three-day mandatory minicamp last weekend.

If he doesn't show up by August 12, Marshall could risk forfeiting his fourth year of service time, which would put him another year away from unrestricted free agency.

[Benetto]

BS...Just like they did with Jay-C.

This is just a way for him not to be crucified by the fans...I call BS on this.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

BS...Just like they did with Jay-C.

This is just a way for him not to be crucified by the fans...I call BS on this.

Or is this NOT just like they did with Jay-C, or moreso, what JC did not do. Many reports that JC would not even return Bowlen's calls - if true - hard to continue talking

[BroncoWave]

BS...Just like they did with Jay-C.

This is just a way for him not to be crucified by the fans...I call BS on this.

They DID try to talk to the quarterback and he refused to return their calls. Give me a freaking break.

Conversations are a two way street, buddy.

[GEM]

At least Brandon has been a bit more mature in this process. At least he SHOWED UP for the meeting instead of losing his phone and sending his daddy into headquarters with the playbook.

I'll give him that.

[Thnikkaman]

The thing that I love is how we get a disgruntled player, and immediately McDaniels and Bowlen are to blame. WTH.

[Dortoh]

http://www.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/mcdaniels-models-cutler-jersey.jpg

[Dortoh]

Ok Ok I'll stop now :)

[NameUsedBefore]

This all sounds very familiar.

[Tned]

The thing that I love is how we get a disgruntled player, and immediately McDaniels and Bowlen are to blame. WTH.

Not necessarily to blame, but the fact is that head coaches and owners all around the league (and in other sports) have to deal with high strung, temperamental players. It is a prerequisite for being a head coach.

On the one hand we can say it is all Cutler, Mashall, Wiegman, etc. A bunch of disgruntled players, but there was a time that Denver was seen as a great destination for players to come to, and those that were in the organization raved about it. Now, players are disgruntled. A year from now, things may change, and after the transition to this really being McDaniel's team, maybe all the drama goes away. However, until that time, we can only judge things by what we have seen in the past, and we have never seen players lining up to leave before.

[Tempus Fugit]

Not necessarily to blame, but the fact is that head coaches and owners all around the league (and in other sports) have to deal with high strung, temperamental players. It is a prerequisite for being a head coach.

On the one hand we can say it is all Cutler, Mashall, Wiegman, etc. A bunch of disgruntled players, but there was a time that Denver was seen as a great destination for players to come to, and those that were in the organization raved about it. Now, players are disgruntled. A year from now, things may change, and after the transition to this really being McDaniel's team, maybe all the drama goes away. However, until that time, we can only judge things by what we have seen in the past, and we have never seen players lining up to leave before.

Cutler was crying about the former coach long before the new guy was on the scene, and Marshall's issues center around his belief that he's outplayed his contract, his unhappiness with the training staff, and his love of assaulting people, none of which has to do with the current head coach.

People blaming McDaniels for this stuff is just mental laziness.

[Tned]

Cutler was crying about the former coach long before the new guy was on the scene, and Marshall's issues center around his belief that he's outplayed his contract, his unhappiness with the training staff, and his love of assaulting people, none of which has to do with the current head coach.

People blaming McDaniels for this stuff is just mental laziness.

Ok, that explains it, I'm just menatally lazy. Thanks for helping set me straight. :confused:

[Dortoh]

Hold the damn phone. This and the Cutler thing have nothing at all to do with McDoogie and Bowlin. I mean we knew Cutler and Marshall were on their way out before Shanny go fired.........um wait.........

I really cant understand how anyone can give McDoogie a free pass at this point.

At best his ability to relate to his players is weak and at worst he is little Hitler.

[NightTrainLayne]

Hold the damn phone. This and the Cutler thing have nothing at all to do with McDoogie and Bowlin. I mean we knew Cutler and Marshall were on their way out before Shanny go fired.........um wait.........

I really cant understand how anyone can give McDoogie a free pass at this point.

At best his ability to relate to his players is weak and at worst he is little Hitler.

Or. . .Shanny made a lot of promises to his all-stars, and the new regime isn't interested in keeping Shanny's promises (especially for an injured, off-the-field troublemaker).

In a way that's their (McD's) fault, but at the same time, if Bowlen wanted to just hire someone to carry out Shanny's plans, then I'm guessing he would have just kept Shanny on as the HC. . .heck, he's paying him anyway. . . Shanny's plans weren't getting it done.

[Tned]

Hold the damn phone. This and the Cutler thing have nothing at all to do with McDoogie and Bowlin. I mean we knew Cutler and Marshall were on their way out before Shanny go fired.........um wait.........


Ok, at least I am not the only one that missed how Cutler, Marshall, Wiegman and maybe others that we don't know of yet were lined up at the door ready to leave the team under the former administration. Then again, you might just be mentally lazy as well... ;)

[Tned]

Or. . .Shanny made a lot of promises to his all-stars, and the new regime isn't interested in keeping Shanny's promises (especially for an injured, off-the-field troublemaker).

In a way that's their (McD's) fault, but at the same time, if Bowlen wanted to just hire someone to carry out Shanny's plans, then I'm guessing he would have just kept Shanny on as the HC. . .heck, he's paying him anyway. . . Shanny's plans weren't getting it done.

You have to admit that it seems VERY unlikely that Bowlens plan was to hire McDaniels with the intention of getting rid of Cutler. Bowlen stated that Jay WAS the franchise and how important he was to the team going forward. He also went on to say after the Cutler fiasco that McDaniels made "rookie" mistakes, but didn't elaborate on what they were (the situation with Cutler, the draft, ???).

Now, on the flip side, Bowlen has freely admitted to losing his memory and later 'forgot' that he talked to Cutler right after firing Shanny, which is what Bowlen said in the press conference following the firing.

So, in the end, I don't know that any of us have any clue what has really gone down, or what the 'plans' really were. We are all guessing and trying to put the pieces together.

[Dortoh]

Or. . .Shanny made a lot of promises to his all-stars, and the new regime isn't interested in keeping Shanny's promises (especially for an injured, off-the-field troublemaker).

In a way that's their (McD's) fault, but at the same time, if Bowlen wanted to just hire someone to carry out Shanny's plans, then I'm guessing he would have just kept Shanny on as the HC. . .heck, he's paying him anyway. . . Shanny's plans weren't getting it done.

Do you really think that Bowlin would not undo this hiring knowing then what he knows now?

[underrated29]

Mike leach was lined up at the door waiting to get out of here. I dont know what the hell you guys are thinking.


I mean i knew right away when we lost that last game to the chargers that mike was gone, and so was jay, leach, wiegman would be close and that brandon would not resign without jay.

Those were instantaneous thoughts i had as the clock ticked 0:00.



Didnt.....you guys?

[underrated29]

You have to admit that it seems VERY unlikely that Bowlens plan was to hire McDaniels with the intention of getting rid of Cutler. Bowlen stated that Jay WAS the franchise and how important he was to the team going forward. He also went on to say after the Cutler fiasco that McDaniels made "rookie" mistakes, but didn't elaborate on what they were (the situation with Cutler, the draft, ???).

Now, on the flip side, Bowlen has freely admitted to losing his memory and later 'forgot' that he talked to Cutler right after firing Shanny, which is what Bowlen said in the press conference following the firing.

So, in the end, I don't know that any of us have any clue what has really gone down, or what the 'plans' really were. We are all guessing and trying to put the pieces together.




Moral of the story is had that blue run guy been right and we hire spagnoluo we would have had nolan as our D coordinator or was it capers?, we still would have jay, and brandon and possibly weigman. As spags wanted a clock controlling offense. But more importantly all he really wanted to do was shore up the defense. The offense was intact. It didnt need anything more than refinement. The defense was going to get the attention.

That was spags plan.

[Tned]

Do you really think that Bowlin would not undo this hiring knowing then what he knows now?

As bad as I think McDaniels has botched some things, I am not 100% convinced that Bowlen would change his mind on the hiring. I think he might be more hands on, possibly try and prevent the Cutler fiasco, if he had that 'hindsite', but I think it is early to tell on the hiring decision.

[Tempus Fugit]

Ok, that explains it, I'm just menatally lazy. Thanks for helping set me straight. :confused:

I came to this board to watch how everything went with McDaniels coming over here, and much of what I see has been people bashing McDaniels for things that:

a.) are from before his time

b.) should better be blamed upon others

c.) are good developments being spun as disasters


I realize that people felt loyalty to the previous coach, but he hadn't done anything particularly impressive since Elway moved on a decade ago. Bagging on the next guy following a Super Bowl coach moving on is a time honored tradition, but bagging on his this much before he's even coached a game? It's been ridiculous.

[Tned]

Moral of the story is had that blue run guy been right and we hire spagnoluo we would have had nolan as our D coordinator or was it capers?, we still would have jay, and brandon and possibly weigman. As spags wanted a clock controlling offense. But more importantly all he really wanted to do was shore up the defense. The offense was intact. It didnt need anything more than refinement. The defense was going to get the attention.

That was spags plan.

Yep, I definately have thought about that fact many times over the last few months. On the one hand I think "man, I wish we had gone the defensive coach route, fixed the defense and tweaked the offense to have the scoring match the 'yardage' production" and then other times I get excited thinking about what some of these players (Marshall, Royal, Stokely, Hillis, the TE's, Moreno, etc.) in the spread offense, but can't help but have reservations about Orton under center vs. Cutler."

[Tned]

I came to this board to watch how everything went with McDaniels coming over here, and much of what I see has been people bashing McDaniels for things that:

a.) are from before his time

b.) should better be blamed upon others

c.) are good developments being spun as disasters


I realize that people felt loyalty to the previous coach, but he hadn't done anything particularly impressive since Elway moved on a decade ago. Bagging on the next guy following a Super Bowl coach moving on is a time honored tradition, but bagging on his this much before he's even coached a game? It's been ridiculous.

As to Shanahan doing nothing special since Elway, I don't agree with that. That's a different discussion, however.

As to the current coach, even the owner admitted he has made rookie mistakes. How can you blame the Cutler situation on the previous coach? Is all the blame on McDaniels? Of course not. Cutler and Marshall certainly have their blame in what has/is going down, but the head coach is paid to deal with players, even temperamental ones, not getting into pissing contests with his players, like he did with Cutler.

[nevcraw]

I came to this board to watch how everything went with McDaniels coming over here, and much of what I see has been people bashing McDaniels for things that:

a.) are from before his time

b.) should better be blamed upon others

c.) are good developments being spun as disasters


I realize that people felt loyalty to the previous coach, but he hadn't done anything particularly impressive since Elway moved on a decade ago. Bagging on the next guy following a Super Bowl coach moving on is a time honored tradition, but bagging on his this much before he's even coached a game? It's been ridiculous.

It's all speculation by all of us of course but you tell me on paper how this team is better today? Sure the new regime can pull a rabit out of their collective asses but I say it's unlikely.
They seem to to be dismantling the one area that was gaining traction.. so w/ Jabar Gaffney and Kyle Orton they will need begin the proccess again.

They are ridding the team of it's best players under the guise of addition by subtraction - from where I am sitting it's still subtraction by subtraction.
and BTW - This has nothing to do with Shanny - the new regime is being judged by their own actions.

[underrated29]

Yep, I definately have thought about that fact many times over the last few months. On the one hand I think "man, I wish we had gone the defensive coach route, fixed the defense and tweaked the offense to have the scoring match the 'yardage' production" and then other times I get excited thinking about what some of these players (Marshall, Royal, Stokely, Hillis, the TE's, Moreno, etc.) in the spread offense, but can't help but have reservations about Orton under center vs. Cutler."



Honestly- If we can keep/resign brandon i am really excited about our team. Even after losing Jay. I think the additions of Knowshon and ayers will outweigh the loss of Jay......But i will really miss him.

With us keeping jay and such, i was predicting a 9-7 record. However, now that we have know and ayers. I think a 10-6 division title is on the menu.

I know the cool aid. But i cant stop thinking that knowshon is going to electricute the league. And if we had spags i dont think we would have drafted him...

[nevcraw]

according to CBS4 - Marshall is saying "change is probably best" on a posted blog.

Note to all current and future Broncos - if you aren't happy today - the FO will let you bitch your way out of town tommorow..

[Tned]

Honestly- If we can keep/resign brandon i am really excited about our team. Even after losing Jay. I think the additions of Knowshon and ayers will outweigh the loss of Jay......But i will really miss him.

With us keeping jay and such, i was predicting a 9-7 record. However, now that we have know and ayers. I think a 10-6 division title is on the menu.

I know the cool aid. But i cant stop thinking that knowshon is going to electricute the league. And if we had spags i dont think we would have drafted him...

While it is way early, I am also excited about what I have heard. I think the offense (if, and it is a BIG if, Orton can execute it) has the chance to be one of the better in the league, but will take a hit if Marshall is gone/holds out.

On the defense, I expect us to be better than last year. While it is only mini-camp and we have all hear glowing camp reports before, it sounds like Ayers and Crowder are making nice transitions to OLB, and if Bean, Fields and Peterson can eat up space and let the LB's make plays, I think the secondary will be/is improved.

So, I was starting to get excited again, but I think losing Marshall will be a big blow.

[Tempus Fugit]

As to Shanahan doing nothing special since Elway, I don't agree with that. That's a different discussion, however.

As to the current coach, even the owner admitted he has made rookie mistakes. How can you blame the Cutler situation on the previous coach? Is all the blame on McDaniels? Of course not. Cutler and Marshall certainly have their blame in what has/is going down, but the head coach is paid to deal with players, even temperamental ones, not getting into pissing contests with his players, like he did with Cutler.

Getting into pissing contests is how you describe it. I don't see it that way at all. Furthermore, as I noted, both problems stem from pre-McDaniels situations. For Cutler, his situation began with his previous coach getting fired, not with McDaniels taking a phone call about Matt Cassel. As for the latest dust up, how is McDaniels to blame for Marshall's gripes about his rookie contract or his complaint about the training staff?

As for the owner saying that McDaniels made rookie mistakes, who cares? First off, everyone makes mistakes. Second, since those mistakes weren't listed, we don't know what supposed mistakes he made in the first place. For all we know, the rookie mistakes could have been at the level of firing the towel boy.

[Buff]

At least Brandon has been a bit more mature in this process. At least he SHOWED UP for the meeting instead of losing his phone and sending his daddy into headquarters with the playbook.

I'll give him that.

Mature? Brandon Marshall?

I guess relative to Jay Cutler your school-aged daughters are pretty mature too, but that's not exactly saying much.

[Dortoh]

I honestly dont see how McD is not lying here. Marshall is saying in public now that he and Bowlin have agreed its best to part ways.

Either Bowlin is not telling McD that little nugget of info or McD is um well you decide I guess.

[BroncoWave]

Either Bowlin is not telling McD that little nugget of info or McD is um well you decide I guess.

If they really are shopping him, McD coming out and saying it publicly could only hurt his trade value. No point in announcing to the world that he's trying to trade him if that really is the case.

[Dortoh]

If they really are shopping him, McD coming out and saying it publicly could only hurt his trade value. No point in announcing to the world that he's trying to trade him if that really is the case.

Maybe but there is no reason to come out in public and say were still talking to him and we look forward to seeing him in camp.

[Tempus Fugit]

It's all speculation by all of us of course but you tell me on paper how this team is better today? Sure the new regime can pull a rabit out of their collective asses but I say it's unlikely.
They seem to to be dismantling the one area that was gaining traction.. so w/ Jabar Gaffney and Kyle Orton they will need begin the proccess again.

They are ridding the team of it's best players under the guise of addition by subtraction - from where I am sitting it's still subtraction by subtraction.
and BTW - This has nothing to do with Shanny - the new regime is being judged by their own actions.

Well, first of all, I disagree with your assessment, so we're immediately at an impasse. This defense is pretty clearly improved over last year, on paper. That's just on paper, but we don't have anything else to go on since, you know, the team hasn't played a single game with McDaniels as the head coach.

As for the "best players" argument, could you please list the positions, other than quarterback, where there's been a definite downgrade? Marshall's still with the team, so kindly count him as such.

[Dortoh]

Well, first of all, I disagree with your assessment, so we're immediately at an impasse. This defense is pretty clearly improved over last year, on paper. That's just on paper, but we don't have anything else to go on since, you know, the team hasn't played a single game with McDaniels as the head coach.

As for the "best players" argument, could you please list the positions, other than quarterback, where there's been a definite downgrade? Marshall's still with the team, so kindly count him as such.

Not according to Marshall he's not

[Tempus Fugit]

Not according to Marshall he's not

Unless there's been a trade that I don't know about, Marshall is a member of the Broncos.

[Tned]

Getting into pissing contests is how you describe it. I don't see it that way at all. Furthermore, as I noted, both problems stem from pre-McDaniels situations. For Cutler, his situation began with his previous coach getting fired, not with McDaniels taking a phone call about Matt Cassel. As for the latest dust up, how is McDaniels to blame for Marshall's gripes about his rookie contract or his complaint about the training staff?

As for the owner saying that McDaniels made rookie mistakes, who cares? First off, everyone makes mistakes. Second, since those mistakes weren't listed, we don't know what supposed mistakes he made in the first place. For all we know, the rookie mistakes could have been at the level of firing the towel boy.

None of us know exactly what happened, but based on the reports that circulated, McDaniels did a LOT more than just take a phone call about Cassell. Come on, do you really believe that's all that happened?

[nevcraw]

Well, first of all, I disagree with your assessment, so we're immediately at an impasse. This defense is pretty clearly improved over last year, on paper. That's just on paper, but we don't have anything else to go on since, you know, the team hasn't played a single game with McDaniels as the head coach.

As for the "best players" argument, could you please list the positions, other than quarterback, where there's been a definite downgrade? Marshall's still with the team, so kindly count him as such.

I'd agree we are clearly at an impasse.

On paper the Broncos are not improved on Defense. They are shifting the front seven completely around with no proof of improvement only a hope of one.
The secondary is better, yes on paper.
The offense is not better on paper and how can you not include the most important player on that squad? "other than QB" lol...
Marshall is as good as gone - you can play the semantics game all you want.. won't change the that the writing is on the wall..
Wigmann is the next one. You think Litkenmeister can fill those shoes, with zero snaps in his career.. again not likely..

so no not better.... worse until proven otherwise..

[Benetto]

How are they continuing talks with Brandon when his latest post on his site says "The hardest thing was hearing Mr. B wish me luck in the future, but we both came to the conclusion that this is probably the best thing for me to grow on and off the field."

BS Josh...Your attempt to keep Broncos fans off your back is blowing up in your face...Just like it did with Cutler after you held up his Jersey at the O-meetings...You have NO credibility until you prove that we are a force on the field. Until then, you are just another chump Bilicheck disciple who is crashing and burning without Tom Brady.

[Tned]

As for the "best players" argument, could you please list the positions, other than quarterback, where there's been a definite downgrade? Marshall's still with the team, so kindly count him as such.

Assuming Marshall and Wiegman don't leave, then at every position other than QB, the team is the same or better 'on paper'.

However, saying "other than QB" in the NFL is sort of like jumping up and down for joy and saying, "I'm rich, I'm rich, I matched all the powerball numbers except the last two...."

[G_Money]

Getting into pissing contests is how you describe it. I don't see it that way at all. Furthermore, as I noted, both problems stem from pre-McDaniels situations. For Cutler, his situation began with his previous coach getting fired, not with McDaniels taking a phone call about Matt Cassel. As for the latest dust up, how is McDaniels to blame for Marshall's gripes about his rookie contract or his complaint about the training staff?

As for the owner saying that McDaniels made rookie mistakes, who cares? First off, everyone makes mistakes. Second, since those mistakes weren't listed, we don't know what supposed mistakes he made in the first place. For all we know, the rookie mistakes could have been at the level of firing the towel boy.

The situation started with the firing of Shanahan. It was exacerbated by McDaniels.

The Marshall situation was started by Brandon being a dumbass, but the training staff didn't help his injury situation at all, and McDaniels exacerbated the Marshall situation by his handling of the Cutler situation, as well as by keeping the training staff. He got the GM fired so he could horn in on that, so he sure could have fixed our medical staff issues. I'm sure there wasn't a mandate from above to keep em.

McDaniels is not responsible for Cutler being a primadonna and Marshall wanting to get paid and not wanting to trust the medical staff. But he is responsible for how he handled the pair of them, and how he is less-than-reassuring to anyone having an issue.

Even if you believe he didn't start the fires this offseason, he hasn't put them out either. And he's the boss now. He can't say "not my fault" - he wanted all the responsibility, so he has all the responsibility.

He could have dealt with Jay, and didn't. He can deal with Marshall, and now we'll see if he chooses to.

Charlie Weis works like this, but life hasn't been rosy for him even in college.

Bill Belichick works like this, and he has multiple rings.

The mentor, Parcells, also works like this and has multiple rings and oodles of success.

Mangini works like this and pisses off everyone around him to mediocre results.

The Parcells/Belichick way works for them, but not for Bill's disciples so far.

Hopefully McDaniels is more like the successes and not like the failures. But it is his fault that the fires were not put out, at least not yet. Win with Orton and that doesn't matter, regardless of whether Marshall gets on board or not. Winning cures all ills.

Lose with Orton...and without Marshall...and there's no cover to be had, no place to hide. The fires Josh refused to put out will have turned it all to ash.

~G

[Tempus Fugit]

I'd agree we are clearly at an impasse.

On paper the Broncos are not improved on Defense. They are shifting the front seven completely around with no proof of improvement only a hope of one.
The secondary is better, yes on paper.
The offense is not better on paper and how can you not include the most important player on that squad? "other than QB" lol...
Marshall is as good as gone - you can play the semantics game all you want.. won't change the that the writing is on the wall..
Wigmann is the next one. You think Litkenmeister can fill those shoes, with zero snaps in his career.. again not likely..

so no not better.... worse until proven otherwise..

So, you don't give me one position where the team is worse outside of the QB argument, but you're saying that McDaniels is trying to get rid of all the best players. You say that the secondary is better on paper but the defense isn't better on paper because a terrible front seven is being changed from a 4-3 to a 3-4 and has brought in new players. That's not better because you haven't seen it, but everything else is worse even though you haven't seen it.

"worse until proven otherwise"

Furthermore, you're pointing to Marshall and saying he's gone when he's not as of right now, and also acting as if his being gone would somehow be on McDaniels with no evidence of that being the case.

Your argument is the sort of argument I meant when I talked about lazy thinking earlier in this thread.

[Tempus Fugit]

Assuming Marshall and Wiegman don't leave, then at every position other than QB, the team is the same or better 'on paper'.

However, saying "other than QB" in the NFL is sort of like jumping up and down for joy and saying, "I'm rich, I'm rich, I matched all the powerball numbers except the last two...."

It makes perfect sense to opine that the loss of Cutler outweighs every gain made. I might, or might not, agree, but it's at least a sensible argument.

It's not the claim that poster was making though.

[Tempus Fugit]

None of us know exactly what happened, but based on the reports that circulated, McDaniels did a LOT more than just take a phone call about Cassell. Come on, do you really believe that's all that happened?

I don't want to re-hash this again, so I'll just point out that the only person actually known to have lied is Cutler, and I'm just talking about the phone call situation and not his "I didn't want" fabrication. Of course, that's assuming that both the Broncos and Cutler's agent were telling the truth about Cutler receiving phone calls and not answering/returning them. If you think both of those parties is lying about it and that Cutler was the only honest broker about that, that would make our differences on this issue even more pronounced.

[nevcraw]

So, you don't give me one position where the team is worse outside of the QB argument, but you're saying that McDaniels is trying to get rid of all the best players. You say that the secondary is better on paper but the defense isn't better on paper because a terrible front seven is being changed from a 4-3 to a 3-4 and has brought in new players. That's not better because you haven't seen it, but everything else is worse even though you haven't seen it.

"worse until proven otherwise"

Furthermore, you're pointing to Marshall and saying he's gone when he's not as of right now, and also acting as if his being gone would somehow be on McDaniels with no evidence of that being the case.

Your argument is the sort of argument I meant when I talked about lazy thinking earlier in this thread.

My thinking is lazy because I do not share your blind optimism? Because I do not stick my head in the sand with "he's still on the roster" so you can't count the fact he is trying to get out of denver?
Because I think changing to a new defense and replacing back up journeymen with new ones along with all others in the front seven switching postions does not automatically spell improvement??
Because Wiegman cannot get a deal done while grossly underpaid based on his roster position?

My thinking is lazy because I refuse to not "nevermind the the silly little QB postion" in my lazy thinking..

and Yes, I think McDaniels and the rest of the FO are involved and share blame with ongoing adiosing of 3 probowl players from last year. Probowl players are usually the best players on the team but not always* (*do not want to think lazilily about the popularity contest known as the pro bowl)

[nevcraw]

I don't want to re-hash this again, so I'll just point out that the only person actually known to have lied is Cutler, and I'm just talking about the phone call situation and not his "I didn't want" fabrication. Of course, that's assuming that both the Broncos and Cutler's agent were telling the truth about Cutler receiving phone calls and not answering/returning them. If you think both of those parties is lying about it and that Cutler was the only honest broker about that, that would make our differences on this issue even more pronounced.

MCD lied when he said he answered only calls. Only later did he admit to engaging in trade talks. Don't be lazy.. do your homework..

[Tempus Fugit]

My thinking is lazy because I do not share your blind optimism? Because I do not stick my head in the sand with "he's still on the roster" so you can't count the fact he is trying to get out of denver? Because I think changing to a new defense and replacing back up journeymen with new ones along with all others in the front seven switching postions does not automatically spell improvement?? Because Wiegman cannot get a deal done while grossly underpaid based on his roster position? My thinking is lazy because I refuse to not "nevermind the the silly little QB postion" in my lazy thinking.. and Yes, I think McDaniels and the rest of the FO are involved and share blame with ongoing adiosing of 3 probowl players from last year. Probowl players are usually the best players on the team but not always* (*do not want to think lazilily about the popularity contest known as the pro bowl)

I have no blind optimism about the Broncos. I've stated that I think they'll struggle this season because of the schedule. However, you made multiple assertions without backing them up, used the "until proven" against the defense while not conceding it for the offense, and you blamed someone for things when you have no evidence that he's responsible for them (whether or not they might be 'bad'). That's lazy thinking.

[Tempus Fugit]

MCD lied when he said he answered only calls. Only later did he admit to engaging in trade talks. Don't be lazy.. do your homework..

I'm not being lazy. He said that he received the calls. In fact, according to Belichick, the Patriots called the Broncos and were rebuffed prior to the start of free agency. It's one of the reasons Belichick gave for acting so quickly to make the deal with the Chiefs.

McDaniels might have been lying. He also might have been telling the truth. We don't know. Of course, the humorous part of that is that it shouldn't matter one way or the other, because trade talks about players happen all the time, and Cutler's getting all huffy about it was either a ploy to get traded or the sign of an extremely immature person.

[Tned]

It makes perfect sense to opine that the loss of Cutler outweighs every gain made. I might, or might not, agree, but it's at least a sensible argument.

It's not the claim that poster was making though.

Which is why until this most recent fiasco (Marshall), I was cautiously optimistic. Orton is a BIG if, but if you buy into the 'system' and Orton being capable of being a 'system QB', there was reason to believe that Cutler's loss could be overcome.

Losing Marshall will deal a heavy blow, because it is a knock on effect. Royal isn't as good a number one WR as Marshall, so we become downgraded at WR1. Stokely/Gaffney isn't as good a number 2 as Royal, so we are downgraded at WR2, etc. The QB position becomes weaker, because his receiving options have taken a big blow.


I don't want to re-hash this again, so I'll just point out that the only person actually known to have lied is Cutler, and I'm just talking about the phone call situation and not his "I didn't want" fabrication. Of course, that's assuming that both the Broncos and Cutler's agent were telling the truth about Cutler receiving phone calls and not answering/returning them. If you think both of those parties is lying about it and that Cutler was the only honest broker about that, that would make our differences on this issue even more pronounced.

As I have said before, I am not God like enough to 'assume' that I know what happened behind closed doors. I don't know if Cutler lied, I don't know if McDaniels lied.

What I do know is that it's the head coach's job to deal with players and player problems. It's the coach's job to keep the team together.

If you want to believe that all McDaniels did was take a single phone call about Cutler, and everything else that happened was Cutler's fault, and that when Bowlen referred to McDaniel's rookie mistakes, it was just simply some drunken rambling, or mental laziness on Bowlen's part, that is certainly your right.

I'll choose to base my opinions in something closer to this thing we call reality.

[Tempus Fugit]

Which is why until this most recent fiasco (Marshall), I was cautiously optimistic. Orton is a BIG if, but if you buy into the 'system' and Orton being capable of being a 'system QB', there was reason to believe that Cutler's loss could be overcome.

Losing Marshall will deal a heavy blow, because it is a knock on effect. Royal isn't as good a number one WR as Marshall, so we become downgraded at WR1. Stokely/Gaffney isn't as good a number 2 as Royal, so we are downgraded at WR2, etc. The QB position becomes weaker, because his receiving options have taken a big blow.

I understand your point here, and I don't disagree with the gist of what you're saying. Clearly, the Broncos offense is likely to be better with a healthy and unsuspended Marshall as its #1 receiver this season than without him. My position on Marshall has been that blaming his wanting to be traded on McDaniels was a product of lazy thinking because there's no evidence that it's about him, and there is evidence that it's about Marshall's contract and his handling by the training staff. In effect, it's just looking to hang everything possible on the new coach, regardless of the known facts.



As I have said before, I am not God like enough to 'assume' that I know what happened behind closed doors. I don't know if Cutler lied, I don't know if McDaniels lied.

Again, unless you think Cutler's own agent lied about calling Cutler, you can be pretty darned sure that Cutler lied about the phone call(s). You can also look to Cutler's statement about not wanting the trade to happen when he'd put in a trade request and see another lie, for that matter.


What I do know is that it's the head coach's job to deal with players and player problems. It's the coach's job to keep the team together.

Sometimes coaches can't "keep the team together". From Clinton Portis to Deion Branch to T.O., sometimes top players have to be moved in order to resolve problems. It happens with bad coaches and it happens with great coaches. It happens with rookie coaches and it happens with veteran coaches. What's different here is that people were already pissed off about how things had gone, both with the season and with the coach getting the axe. McDaniels was never given a fair shake by a very large contingent of the Broncos fans.


If you want to believe that all McDaniels did was take a single phone call about Cutler, and everything else that happened was Cutler's fault, and that when Bowlen referred to McDaniel's rookie mistakes, it was just simply some drunken rambling, or mental laziness on Bowlen's part, that is certainly your right.

I'll choose to base my opinions in something closer to this thing we call reality.

You don't know what the "rookie mistakes" were, yet you point to them. I look to the items that we have had verified, especially those that have been verfied by both of the two 'opposing' sides and not just asserted by one party or the media. Yet, somehow, you're claiming that I'm the one who's not "closer to this thing we call reality". I'm sorry, but that makes no sense.

[Tned]

You had me at "mentally lazy"...

[Tempus Fugit]

You had me at "mentally lazy"...

Everyone is sometimes, but you misunderstood on your first post and thought I meant you at the time. You'd actually differentiated yourself in that post:


Not necessarily to blame

I just wasn't going to go for a repeat of what happened the last time you took something I said as a personal attack and I tried to explain myself.

[topscribe]

Again, unless you think Cutler's own agent lied about calling Cutler, you can be pretty darned sure that Cutler lied about the phone call(s). You can also look to Cutler's statement about not wanting the trade to happen when he'd put in a trade request and see another lie, for that matter.

That is where Cutler lost me: where it became obvious he was lying. I had
previously described him as "painfully honest," based on his comments to the
press on different matters. Further, I was a big fan of Cutler's and initially
defended him vigorously on these boards.

But there was one person whose word I would take over Cutler's: Pat Bowlen's.
And when it came down to he said-he said, I deduced that Cutler was lying.

The Broncos lost in physical talent when Cutler left and Orton arrived. They
will lose further, physically, if Marshall takes a final exit.

But will they really lose?

At this point, I don't think so. They might be losing in a couple instances in
physical talent, but they are gaining as a team. That is becoming very
apparent to me. I was not a McDaniels fan at first, by any stretch. But I think
I see it now . . .

-----

[topscribe]

Rod Smith on Marshall situation:

http://www.cbs4denver.com/video/?id=58446@kcnc.dayport.com

-----

[lex]

That is where Cutler lost me: . . .

-----

Good luck on your journey.

[nevcraw]

I have no blind optimism about the Broncos. I've stated that I think they'll struggle this season because of the schedule. However, you made multiple assertions without backing them up, used the "until proven" against the defense while not conceding it for the offense, and you blamed someone for things when you have no evidence that he's responsible for them (whether or not they might be 'bad'). That's lazy thinking.

should have left this at impasse.
I asked for on paper examples of improvement and you furnished nothing.
I backed up each speculation with reasons and examples for the concern. you do not agree, fine. and yes - the head coach and defacto leader of the team is responsible.
The team is clearly in rebuild mode on all 3 phases even if some of us do not agree that this much was needed. Hopefully the the new regime will build us a winner we can all be proud of by turning unproven players into a team of champions.

[Tempus Fugit]

should have left this at impasse.
I asked for on paper examples of improvement and you furnished nothing.

You never answered my request, so don't even go there. You talked about them getting rid of all the best players. There's been ONE, and only one, position where a "best player" was moved and not replaced by a player considered to be on his level or higher.

However, since you ask, here you go: as you noted, the secondary has improved. The Broncos should be better at the safety spot, the linebacker spot, and the running back position, as well as at cornerback. They might be better on the D-line, although I don't like the absence of a NT, and any improvement might be marginal as a result of that missing piece. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to fix an entire unit in one draft and one free agency period. Special teams should also be improved, but that's best left for when it actually happens.


I backed up each speculation with reasons and examples for the concern. you do not agree, fine. and yes - the head coach and defacto leader of the team is responsible.

No, you didn't. Try re-reading your "reasons" for why the defense won't be better and I think you'll get what I'm trying to say. It's neither here nor there, though, and there's still more than 2 months before the games start to count, so more moves will likely be coming.

[LoyalSoldier]

Um yea why do I get the impression that McD is only going to piss off Marshall more?

[Lonestar]

Mike leach was lined up at the door waiting to get out of here. I dont know what the hell you guys are thinking.


I mean i knew right away when we lost that last game to the chargers that mike was gone, and so was jay, leach, wiegman would be close and that brandon would not resign without jay.

Those were instantaneous thoughts i had as the clock ticked 0:00.



Didnt.....you guys?

I think with the exception of leach you may be correct.. I believed as did everyone that the new guy coming in would be a D guy that would in turn let the O go and In my case thought it would fall off big time..

that the new guy would spend all 10 picks on nothing but D..

I believe that Pat thought jay and marshall would be part of the team next year.. But I'll also bet after Josh had really studied the tapes that IF he could turn them not the system he was bringing in they could have some damned fine years ahead.. But after talking with both I think he changed his tune and I'll bet talked to Xman and most likely Pat about "hey I'm not sure these guys will get it".. Now that is just my opinion but I have seen nothing that say it is not out of hand..

I also believe the jay and BM looked at the tapes of NE games read the playbook and saw their roles diminished and now want out.. jay first and now I'm sure that he has been whispering in Marshall's ears about how bad it is going to be there and how he'd love to have him in CHI to be like old times..

Hey bro I need you here because they want me to hand off to this running back not make any deep throws and let the defense win the games BECAUSE I do not have anyone to throw deep to.. if you can get out of DEN I'll bet I can talk lovie into getting you"

[Lonestar]

If they really are shopping him, McD coming out and saying it publicly could only hurt his trade value. No point in announcing to the world that he's trying to trade him if that really is the case.


not at all.. it just lets the world know he is out there highest bid takes all..

If no one raises their hand we keep him and allow him to play..

It may take some humble pie for him to realize he is not loved by everyone.. that his agent whispering in his ear he will make billions is not true..

[Lonestar]

Um yea why do I get the impression that McD is only going to piss off Marshall more?


if straight talk pisses him off then so be it..


drama queens we do not need as part of a TEAM..

[NightTrainLayne]

Do you really think that Bowlin would not undo this hiring knowing then what he knows now?

I don't know. The fact that Bowlen fired Shanny with so much money left on his contract means that he really wanted Shanny out of there and was not happy at all with the direction Shanny was going.

Bowlen knows (hopefully hasn't forgotten) a lot more of the internal goings-on at Dove valley than we could ever hope to know. It's quite possible that the firing of Shanny is the catalyst for these players being disgruntled rather than the hiring of McD. IE no matter who Bowlen hired this might have happened.

Unless someone like Bowlen writes a book we'll never probably know.

[Nomad]

I don't know. The fact that Bowlen fired Shanny with so much money left on his contract means that he really wanted Shanny out of there and was not happy at all with the direction Shanny was going.

Bowlen knows (hopefully hasn't forgotten) a lot more of the internal goings-on at Dove valley than we could ever hope to know. It's quite possible that the firing of Shanny is the catalyst for these players being disgruntled rather than the hiring of McD. IE no matter who Bowlen hired this might have happened.
Unless someone like Bowlen writes a book we'll never probably know.

That's my belief as well.

[nevcraw]

I'm not being lazy. He said that he received the calls. In fact, according to Belichick, the Patriots called the Broncos and were rebuffed prior to the start of free agency. It's one of the reasons Belichick gave for acting so quickly to make the deal with the Chiefs.

McDaniels might have been lying. He also might have been telling the truth. We don't know. Of course, the humorous part of that is that it shouldn't matter one way or the other, because trade talks about players happen all the time, and Cutler's getting all huffy about it was either a ploy to get traded or the sign of an extremely immature person.

I repeat - He lied..
http://m.si.com/news/archive/archive/detail/1466971;jsessionid=DBE23E93206730DD46364C0E3EFF2CF B.cnnsilive10i
How we got to this point, in chronological order:

McDaniels said he was not considering trading Cutler until he was contacted "by two teams'' at the Scouting Combine -- presumably Detroit and Tampa. They were pie-in-the-sky inquiries, though, and he didn't consider anything seriously, he said, until the day before the Feb. 27 beginning of free-agency, when he got a serious proposal for Cutler.
"This was a non-issue until Thursday [Feb. 26],'' McDaniels said. "There was obviously a scenario where teams figured we'd be interested in Matt Cassel, because I'd coached him in New England. When someone calls, I'm going to consider it, because that's my job.''

Cutler believes the Broncos were much more interested in trading him and signing Cassel than they've said. I asked McDaniels if he'd been interested in Cassel before the contact by the two teams at the combine, going back to when he knew Cassel might be on the market and available in trade from the Patriots. "No, that's totally untrue,'' he said.

McDaniels did pursue a deal with New England on the first day of free agency, but not intensely, he said, because he and Broncos general manager Brian Xanders were in the middle of doing six free-agent negotiations in the opening two days of free-agency. "I think we were too late to the dance,'' he said, meaning the Chiefs had already made the deal with New England -- a second-round pick for Cassel and linebacker Mike Vrabel. Denver would have given more, likely a first-round pick, but Patriots coach Bill Belichick had his deal done with the Chiefs.

"Do I understand about Jay being hurt that we'd consider this?'' McDaniels said. "Sure. But I can tell you that it wasn't like there was any grand plan by us to trade Jay Cutler. That wasn't the case. But when we've told them [Cutler and Cook], I think it's fallen on deaf ears.''

[Tempus Fugit]

I repeat - He lied..
http://m.si.com/news/archive/archive/detail/1466971;jsessionid=DBE23E93206730DD46364C0E3EFF2CF B.cnnsilive10i
How we got to this point, in chronological order:

McDaniels said he was not considering trading Cutler until he was contacted "by two teams'' at the Scouting Combine -- presumably Detroit and Tampa. They were pie-in-the-sky inquiries, though, and he didn't consider anything seriously, he said, until the day before the Feb. 27 beginning of free-agency, when he got a serious proposal for Cutler.
"This was a non-issue until Thursday [Feb. 26],'' McDaniels said. "There was obviously a scenario where teams figured we'd be interested in Matt Cassel, because I'd coached him in New England. When someone calls, I'm going to consider it, because that's my job.''

Cutler believes the Broncos were much more interested in trading him and signing Cassel than they've said. I asked McDaniels if he'd been interested in Cassel before the contact by the two teams at the combine, going back to when he knew Cassel might be on the market and available in trade from the Patriots. "No, that's totally untrue,'' he said.

McDaniels did pursue a deal with New England on the first day of free agency, but not intensely, he said, because he and Broncos general manager Brian Xanders were in the middle of doing six free-agent negotiations in the opening two days of free-agency. "I think we were too late to the dance,'' he said, meaning the Chiefs had already made the deal with New England -- a second-round pick for Cassel and linebacker Mike Vrabel. Denver would have given more, likely a first-round pick, but Patriots coach Bill Belichick had his deal done with the Chiefs.

"Do I understand about Jay being hurt that we'd consider this?'' McDaniels said. "Sure. But I can tell you that it wasn't like there was any grand plan by us to trade Jay Cutler. That wasn't the case. But when we've told them [Cutler and Cook], I think it's fallen on deaf ears.''

Ummmm..... There's no lie there.

[SoCalImport]

yeah. I don't see n outright lie either. Semantics? yes.

eg, what is meant by "seriously consider" and "grand plan"

[nevcraw]

yeah. I don't see n outright lie either. Semantics? yes.

eg, what is meant by "seriously consider" and "grand plan"
semantics yes - but we just took phone calls with no plans to trade Cutler to we did engage in trade talks is clearly different. this is a perversion of the truth - in another words lied.. a white lie is still a lie is it not?

[nevcraw]

Ummmm..... There's no lie there.

sure you are not just being lazy in your thinking??

[LoyalSoldier]

I am starting to wonder how many good players we will have left by the time this is all over.

[Lonestar]

I am starting to wonder how many good players we will have left by the time this is all over.

53:salute:

[LoyalSoldier]

53:salute:
I said good players not scrubs. :D

[BroncoAV06]

I think with the exception of leach you may be correct.. I believed as did everyone that the new guy coming in would be a D guy that would in turn let the O go and In my case thought it would fall off big time..

that the new guy would spend all 10 picks on nothing but D..

I believe that Pat thought jay and marshall would be part of the team next year.. But I'll also bet after Josh had really studied the tapes that IF he could turn them not the system he was bringing in they could have some damned fine years ahead.. But after talking with both I think he changed his tune and I'll bet talked to Xman and most likely Pat about "hey I'm not sure these guys will get it".. Now that is just my opinion but I have seen nothing that say it is not out of hand..

I also believe the jay and BM looked at the tapes of NE games read the playbook and saw their roles diminished and now want out.. jay first and now I'm sure that he has been whispering in Marshall's ears about how bad it is going to be there and how he'd love to have him in CHI to be like old times..

Hey bro I need you here because they want me to hand off to this running back not make any deep throws and let the defense win the games BECAUSE I do not have anyone to throw deep to.. if you can get out of DEN I'll bet I can talk lovie into getting you"

I really don't see how the "roles diminished" argument works. Did the Patriots not score more points then any team in history? Did Randy Moss not catch 23 TD passes?( 07-98rec, 1,493yds, 15.2avg, 65long, 23TD's). To me it would seem like BM would be stoked but I guess Jay's departure was big for him. I really would of liked to see what would of happend with Jay in this offense. Jay's ego is big no doubt but could you not get him to buy in with the possability of throwing 50 TD's or for 4,806 yds, as Brady did in 07? HE would have alot to learn going from a must score fast/force teh ball game plan to this but it sure would have been nice. To me the players that would seem to have a case with a diminished role would be the RB's.

Yes they were one win short of the perfect season and a ring in 07 with Moss but hell I will be all over a perfect season and a trip to the Super Bowl. You can talk about the system all you want but if there is not talent in the system how is it going to win?

[LRtagger]

I said good players not scrubs. :D

We will have fewer scrubs than we did last year even if we lose Marshall too.

[Lonestar]

I really don't see how the "roles diminished" argument works. Did the Patriots not score more points then any team in history? Did Randy Moss not catch 23 TD passes?( 07-98rec, 1,493yds, 15.2avg, 65long, 23TD's). To me it would seem like BM would be stoked but I guess Jay's departure was big for him. I really would of liked to see what would of happend with Jay in this offense. Jay's ego is big no doubt but could you not get him to buy in with the possability of throwing 50 TD's or for 4,806 yds, as Brady did in 07? HE would have alot to learn going from a must score fast/force teh ball game plan to this but it sure would have been nice. To me the players that would seem to have a case with a diminished role would be the RB's.

Yes they were one win short of the perfect season and a ring in 07 with Moss but hell I will be all over a perfect season and a trip to the Super Bowl. You can talk about the system all you want but if there is not talent in the system how is it going to win?


yes they throw alot but MOss gets open BM does not always get open.. therein lies the rub.. plus Orton may turn out to be a heck of a QB but right now he is not Brady either..

BM has one shot at a huge NEXT contract that is either to get out of here NOW or play balls out his year..

If he plays here he will as it stands right now have ZERO timing with Orton,, for that matter does not even know the play book..

Eddie has his timing and under sands stuff that may take BM 4-5 Weeks into the season to get down..

This scheme is not really designed for outside WR as much as it is for those crossing over the middle.. causing confusion on the D almost all of them are gonna be open more than one guy outside.. now if BM had Moss skills at getting open and was not just a big dumb jock.. he might have that triple breakout year..

how many times did jay force the ball into BM when others were WIDE open,

that is not gonna happen this coming year..I think that is the big reason for him wanting out of town now, that or his hip and hand are not as good as most folks think.. he can probably fool other doctors thats have not been there all the way and know what is realy wrong....

[Lonestar]

We will have fewer scrubs than we did last year even if we lose Marshall too.


we will have players that want to be here and in a player friendly scheme will most likely give us a better TEAM..

[LoyalSoldier]

Wanting to be here is great and all, but you still need talent. Unfortunately sometimes the best hearted guys aren't always the greatest on the field.

One thing McDaniels has already failed at compared to his former head coach is that Moss was a problem child and fell in line. Both of our problem childs want to get as far away from this place as possible.

[BroncoWave]

Wanting to be here is great and all, but you still need talent. Unfortunately sometimes the best hearted guys aren't always the greatest on the field.

One thing McDaniels has already failed at compared to his former head coach is that Moss was a problem child and fell in line. Both of our problem childs want to get as far away from this place as possible.

You can't compare Moss to this situation. I would say that anyone stuck in Oakland would start acting like a choir boy to be able to play for the Patriots.

[LoyalSoldier]

You can't compare Moss to this situation. I would say that anyone stuck in Oakland would start acting like a choir boy to be able to play for the Patriots.

It will never be a perfect comparison, but none the less Moss still had issues at both of his previous stops. On and off the field. Once he joined the Pats there were no problems.

[BroncoWave]

It will never be a perfect comparison, but none the less Moss still had issues at both of his previous stops. On and off the field. Once he joined the Pats there were no problems.

True, but winning cures a lot of ailments and the Pats have done a lot of winning with Moss.

[Shazam!]

Wouldn't you be on your best behavior coming out of the rat's ass in Oakland to a winning program, arguably the best team in the NFL?

NE oozes leadership and experience all over their roster. It shouldn't be a surprise that Moss turned out ok.

[LawDog]

As TNED noted way, way upthread, Belicheat and Parcells do their thing and are very successful at it. The offspring not-so-much. The thing is, the former built their reputation and success - they didn't have it from their first day in the league. The latter seem to think that they can just implement the system of the formers from day one, act like they are the man and expect everyone to just fall in line like good little players.

The jump from DC or OC or whatever to HC is huge. Understanding the patriot way, having great football knowledge and a creative plan on how to win is great. However, to come in to a new town, with almost entirely new players and expect them to treat you with the same reverence as they would a Belichek or Parcells is asinine. When you start slinging around with the attitude that it is my way or the highway is way too arrogant for the reality that is the prima donna players and fragile egos that go along with multi-million dollar talent in todays NFL.

Thinking you can do it the way McDaniels has been trying is like trying to go 0 to 60 in a Ferrari by starting in 3rd gear. 3rd gear will take you scary fast but you've got to use 1st and 2nd first. The Broncos will probably be "fine" eventually, and will even be moving in the right direction this year. Unfortunately, the way McDaniels is going about it will delay true success.

At least that's the way I see it.