Marshall could be docked $35,000

[Lonestar]

The Broncos still are bargaining with their unhappy receiver after his minicamp absence.
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Posted: 06/15/2009 01:00:00 AM MDT


There is a steep price confronting Brandon Marshall for protesting his contract by not attending the Broncos' mandatory minicamp over the weekend.

The cost: $35,329 in fines and a signing bonus deduction.

Marshall, the Broncos' top receiver, is coming off back-to-back 100-catch seasons and hip surgery. In the final year of a four-year contract that would pay him $2.198 million this season, Marshall is seeking an extension that suits his level of production.

To emphasize his point, Marshall skipped all three sessions of the Broncos' mandatory minicamp this weekend, although roughly an hour after the first practice Friday, the receiver met personally with owner Pat Bowlen at the team's headquarters. Broncos coach Josh McDaniels

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12591026?source=rss


Sounds to me it is less about the hip thingy and more and more about the money thingy..

[threefolddead]

Losing this much money will give him a reason to hit his girlfriends some more.

[CoachChaz]

I know I should know better by now, but I still just dont get it. Cutler and Marshall. All they've done is show promise, while at the same time show mistakes and immaturity and yet they feel they can demand anything they want. Marshall will most likely not get the same amount of catches in this offense and maybe he knows that and is looking for the extension now before that happens. What the hell is wrong with our youth that money becomes the priority?

I remember playing baseball in college and always saying that I would take a lesser contract from the orioles if they wanted me. For me it was about playing the game and just being an added bonus if I could play for my favorite team.

These guys say they play for the team and the team goals, but the second they over-value themselves...and they seem to always do...it's all about the money. "I want to take care of my family". Screw that. I have 4 kids and I take care of my family just fine and I make nowhere near what they make. It just gets old and personally, I could care less if he gets shipped out too.

[lex]

I know I should know better by now, but I still just dont get it. Cutler and Marshall. All they've done is show promise, while at the same time show mistakes and immaturity and yet they feel they can demand anything they want. Marshall will most likely not get the same amount of catches in this offense and maybe he knows that and is looking for the extension now before that happens. What the hell is wrong with our youth that money becomes the priority?

I remember playing baseball in college and always saying that I would take a lesser contract from the orioles if they wanted me. For me it was about playing the game and just being an added bonus if I could play for my favorite team.

These guys say they play for the team and the team goals, but the second they over-value themselves...and they seem to always do...it's all about the money. "I want to take care of my family". Screw that. I have 4 kids and I take care of my family just fine and I make nowhere near what they make. It just gets old and personally, I could care less if he gets shipped out too.


First of all, Marshall has shown more than promise. He has demonstrated he can play through injuries and distractions and still deliver on the field. Secondly, he's not over valuing himself at all. The guy has been producing the past 2 years like a top 5 NFL WR and is getting paid as a 4th round pick on his rookie contract.

[CoachChaz]

First of all, Marshall has shown more than promise. He has demonstrated he can play through injuries and distractions and still deliver on the field. Secondly, he's not over valuing himself at all. The guy has been producing the past 2 years like a top 5 NFL WR and is getting paid as a 4th round pick on his rookie contract.

Again...he's using inflated numbers to take advantage of an extension because he knows he wont catch 100 balls in this new offense.

[lex]

Again...he's using inflated numbers to take advantage of an extension because he knows he wont catch 100 balls in this new offense.

Inflated numbers? Its not like he only makes catches when he's open. The guy is probably the best in the league at making a catch in the endzone along the sidelines. He's also one of the best running after the catch. Inflated numbers? I think its probably more accurate to say that he is using numbers to prove that he can play, which is true.

[CoachChaz]

Inflated numbers? Its not like he only makes catches when he's open. The guy is probably the best in the league at making a catch in the endzone along the sidelines. He's also one of the best running after the catch. Inflated numbers? I think its probably more accurate to say that he is using numbers to prove that he can play, which is true.

Well, I wont deny his skills, but I cant say he's be putting up 100 catches if he wasnt thrown to 150+ times. Will the new offense focus on him as much as Cutler did? Most likely not.

Just my opinion, but the numbers he's had the past 2 seasons will likely not be seen again. If not for the offense, then due to suspendions, injuries, etc.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Well. . . obviously? Most wide receivers don't put up big seasons unless they are thrown the ball that much. It was one of the reason's why Lelie had a 1,000 yard season in Denver -- he had over 100 targets. The more opportunities you get, the more you can capitalize on them. And no, I don't expect Marshall to have as much production as last year. I'm not sure if there has ever been a receiver who had 3 one-hundred catch seasons in a row. A #1 receiver is still going to get over 100 targets on the team he plays for. Even if Marshall's catch total went into the 70s; it'd be a hell of a year.

[NightTrainLayne]

I've said it before in another thread, but I wonder what kind of promises Shanny had made to Marshall, and whether or not the change in coaching regime is behind his demands.

IE, maybe he sees the writing on the wall that McD might not fulfill the promises that Shanny made. And some of the same could have played at least a partial role in Cutler's reaction to the HC change.

[CoachChaz]

Well. . . obviously? Most wide receivers don't put up big seasons unless they are thrown the ball that much. It was one of the reason's why Lelie had a 1,000 yard season in Denver -- he had over 100 targets. The more opportunities you get, the more you can capitalize on them. And no, I don't expect Marshall to have as much production as last year. I'm not sure if there has ever been a receiver who had 3 one-hundred catch seasons in a row. A #1 receiver is still going to get over 100 targets on the team he plays for. Even if Marshall's catch total went into the 70s; it'd be a hell of a year.

I dont doubt any of this, but the fact that he is using that to his advantage when anyone can see his production will drop is just lame.

Bad hip, bad hand, violent history and production will undoubtedly go down. Why does he warrant being paid like a top 5 receiver?

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Why does he warrant being paid like a top 5 receiver?

Because on the field he has played like one, I'm guessing. You'd have to ask Brandon. He might surprise us like Owens and say, "I'm just trying to feed my family."

[CoachChaz]

Because on the field he has played like one, I'm guessing. You'd have to ask Brandon. He might surprise us like Owens and say, "I'm just trying to feed my family."

Again, I'll say his numbers are inflated because Cutler focused on him and threw passes to him that would have been better off going elsewhere. In this new offense he wont see 100 receptions. Royal would be more likely to hit that number now than Marshall would.

2 years of 100 reception in a pass happy offense where the QB focused on you 95% of the time warrants a top 5 payday? I'm glad Bowlen owns the team.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Again, I'll say his numbers are inflated because Cutler focused on him and threw passes to him that would have been better off going elsewhere. In this new offense he wont see 100 receptions. Royal would be more likely to hit that number now than Marshall would.

Yep, they were most definitely inflated. Any time you get 180+ balls thrown your way, you are going to have great numbers. He is still going to produce though, not as much. We agree on that. And yes, I think Eddie in a Welker like role will be able to do a lot in this offense; but I think Brandon being out there will help and he can do quite well. As I mentioned elsewhere, I think 70-75 catches for Marshall would be realistic; and that isn't anything to frown upon at all.


2 years of 100 reception in a pass happy offense where the QB focused on you 95% of the time warrants a top 5 payday? I'm glad Bowlen owns the team.

Well, not focusing on him 95% of the time -- but I get your picture. Then again, when did we start holding the fact that he was a targeted receiver against him? Coaches and players had the confidence in getting him the ball. Are we going to say the same things for Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin who had a lot of targets as well and try and knock them for it? No.

The NFL is airing the ball out more than ever. 180+ is an extremely high number, and I'd expect him to get in the 120 range (per average) with Orton at the helm. I'd have to see the targets Welker and Moss got in New England while McDaniels was calling the plays to see more of a #1/#2 ratio in target distribution to come up with a more sound number; but anyways -- Marshall would have the chance to produce like a quality receiver regardless.

But no, he won't get the opportunities like he had here with Cutler and Mike. Agreed. I've been saying that for a few days now.

[Poet]

I know I should know better by now, but I still just dont get it. Cutler and Marshall. All they've done is show promise, while at the same time show mistakes and immaturity and yet they feel they can demand anything they want. Marshall will most likely not get the same amount of catches in this offense and maybe he knows that and is looking for the extension now before that happens. What the hell is wrong with our youth that money becomes the priority?

I remember playing baseball in college and always saying that I would take a lesser contract from the orioles if they wanted me. For me it was about playing the game and just being an added bonus if I could play for my favorite team.

These guys say they play for the team and the team goals, but the second they over-value themselves...and they seem to always do...it's all about the money. "I want to take care of my family". Screw that. I have 4 kids and I take care of my family just fine and I make nowhere near what they make. It just gets old and personally, I could care less if he gets shipped out too.
Of course it's about the money. It is always about the money. It will never be about anything else other than the money.

Jim Rome put it best when he said "Whenever a guy says it's not about the money, it's about the money."

The problem isn't all on Marshall's end. I really don't like the guy, but he has a point.

The NFL will cut you if they deem you to not be serviceable to the team. Now, it is their team. But, if teams want to moan and complain about guys not fulfilling their contracts, they lose, and they lose hard. A contract is a TWO way agreement. That is a little fact that NFL owners and general managers often forget.

Has his play outperformed his contract? Well, yeah, by far and away. You could make a credible list of top ten wideouts and not have Marshall's name on it.

The issue is that most lists SHOULD include his name.

The problem on his end is that he would have a new contract if he was not such a liability. It's hard to convince teams to give you millions of dollars when you are a terrible human being with a track record of domestic abuse. Where there is smoke there is fire, and as much as it pains some of the fans on this forum to admit, Marshall is not a good guy. He isn't even a decent guy. He's a terrible human being with an amazing ability to provide convincing lip service.

The other fun reality is that if you guys don't pay him someone else will.

Luckily for you, it appears that McDaniels may be implementing a run first offense that could allow "lesser" receivers to produce at a pretty high level.

Oh Dream, Marvin Harrison has the record with 4 straight years of 100 catch seasons.

Brandon Marshall is one helluva wideout.

He is also pretty volatile.

Have fun.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Thanks for the Harrison tidbit, I was thinking it'd of been him or Rice -- but wasn't sure. Four though? Wow. If you catch 500 balls in a career that is actually damn impressive, he did 4/5 of that in four years. Insane.

[Poet]

Thanks for the Harrison tidbit, I was thinking it'd of been him or Rice -- but wasn't sure. Four though? Wow. If you catch 500 balls in a career that is actually damn impressive, he did 4/5 of that in four years. Insane.

If he wasn't an awful postseason player he would go down as a top three WR.

[broncofanatic1987]

Inflated numbers? Its not like he only makes catches when he's open. The guy is probably the best in the league at making a catch in the endzone along the sidelines. He's also one of the best running after the catch. Inflated numbers? I think its probably more accurate to say that he is using numbers to prove that he can play, which is true.

Cutler had 25 touchdown passes last year and only 6 of them went to Marshall, none of them in the last 3 games. He caught 7 of Cutler's 20 touchdown passes in 2007. Please don't talk about him being one of the best at catching the ball in the end zone, even if you limit it to along the sidelines. It just isn't true.

[lex]

Cutler had 25 touchdown passes last year and only 6 of them went to Marshall, none of them in the last 3 games. He caught 7 of Cutler's 20 touchdown passes in 2007. Please don't talk about him being one of the best at catching the ball in the end zone, even if you limit it to along the sidelines. It just isn't true.

It most certainly is true. The guy is great in those situations. But one of the reasons our offense was bogged down inside the 20 (more specifically the 10), is that with so many RBs going down, the run was less of a threat and that only made throwing that much more congested. When we had Pittman as a short yardage specialist, we were able to score TDs whether by running or passing. Same was true when we had Hillis. But after he went down, there was really no one for that kind of situation, which, like I said, made it toughter to throw because of congestion. If you can roll coverage to one receiver the way defenses could against Marshall last year (again the lack of a running game), then any WR is going to have a challenge scoring.

Not only that, but Marshall played with a bad hip last year and also that lingering arm injury...and still produced.

[lex]

Yep, they were most definitely inflated. Any time you get 180+ balls thrown your way, you are going to have great numbers. He is still going to produce though, not as much. We agree on that. And yes, I think Eddie in a Welker like role will be able to do a lot in this offense; but I think Brandon being out there will help and he can do quite well. As I mentioned elsewhere, I think 70-75 catches for Marshall would be realistic; and that isn't anything to frown upon at all.



Well, not focusing on him 95% of the time -- but I get your picture. Then again, when did we start holding the fact that he was a targeted receiver against him? Coaches and players had the confidence in getting him the ball. Are we going to say the same things for Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin who had a lot of targets as well and try and knock them for it? No.

The NFL is airing the ball out more than ever. 180+ is an extremely high number, and I'd expect him to get in the 120 range (per average) with Orton at the helm. I'd have to see the targets Welker and Moss got in New England while McDaniels was calling the plays to see more of a #1/#2 ratio in target distribution to come up with a more sound number; but anyways -- Marshall would have the chance to produce like a quality receiver regardless.

But no, he won't get the opportunities like he had here with Cutler and Mike. Agreed. I've been saying that for a few days now.

What people are failing to comprehend is that what Marshall might be losing in catches, he could be making up for in yardage. NEs offense is built on that WR screen. It sets up the running game and it sets up the long pass. Sometimes they even throw it to Moss. But by using Royal as the main WR in this play, it could easily open things up for Marshall. IF teams that dont match up get tired of being nickled and dimed to death, that then creates opportunities for Marshall to get more big plays. In the end, Marshall would be just as productive if he had as many yards even on fewer catches.

Its amazing what people will ignore to trash Marshall, in spite of what he has done.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Exactly, but why bother stating that to people who could give a shit less and just think it is fun to piss on players by attempts at being witty with nicknames like "Morons Anonymous" and "Mar$$$$hall!" -- It is just easier to do that!

[lex]

Well, I wont deny his skills, but I cant say he's be putting up 100 catches if he wasnt thrown to 150+ times. Will the new offense focus on him as much as Cutler did? Most likely not.

Just my opinion, but the numbers he's had the past 2 seasons will likely not be seen again. If not for the offense, then due to suspendions, injuries, etc.

Its good to have two WRs to make this offense work. So much of the offense flows through the WR screen that it makes it optimum to have two guys who can play off of each other in determining how defenses roll their coverage. Like I said, they can use one to nickel and dime the defense and one to make them pay deep. If you only have one legit WR, then it makes it easier for defenses to roll coverage to one side.

[CoachChaz]

Its good to have two WRs to make this offense work. So much of the offense flows through the WR screen that it makes it optimum to have two guys who can play off of each other in determining how defenses roll their coverage. Like I said, they can use one to nickel and dime the defense and one to make them pay deep. If you only have one legit WR, then it makes it easier for defenses to roll coverage to one side.

I agree. I guess my point is more along the lines of the fact that we can pay Marshall all we want...but whether he's traded, injured, suspended or imprisoned, the result of only having one legit receiver is still the same.

Show me you will be healthy and stay out of trouble and I'll pay you. Until then, you have no chips to bargain with. Yes...you have skills and are a top talent...but you also have ALOT of baggage.

[lex]

I agree. I guess my point is more along the lines of the fact that we can pay Marshall all we want...but whether he's traded, injured, suspended or imprisoned, the result of only having one legit receiver is still the same.

Show me you will be healthy and stay out of trouble and I'll pay you. Until then, you have no chips to bargain with. Yes...you have skills and are a top talent...but you also have ALOT of baggage.

As many have said, putting incentives in the contract and paying him makes as much sense as trading him at this point since we would likely not getting comparable talent in return.

[CoachChaz]

As many have said, putting incentives in the contract and paying him makes as much sense as trading him at this point since we would likely not getting comparable talent in return.

But that's all assuming he agrees to the incentive clauses. All he has to do is say No to them and we're back at square one.

[WARHORSE]

While Brandon may or may not catch as many passes this year as last, it doesnt underscore his value one bit. The reason Brandon is where hes at is because he makes plays.

It all started in that Seattle game where he broke about four tackles to go 70+ yards for a score.

The guy gets open, gets the ball, makes people miss, and can knock em to the ground.

He also blocks.

He was injured last year and it affected his YAC bigtime imo.

Just because he may not be thrown to as much doesnt devalue him one bit.

Moss and Welker seem to be thrown to just fine.

Welker was their number one receiver with 111 receptions. Moss had 69.

But Brandon Marshall is not Randy Moss. If Brandon were in New England he would catch more than 69 passes.

Moss is a wimp. He knows one route......the 9er. He will not catch in traffic, and hes scared to get hit.

Brandon is not afraid to go over the middle.


Brandon is a number one reciever skillwise period.

He has proven himself a risk off the field.


One thing good about this time that McDaniels pointed out is that Brandon wouldnt be here anyway. Hes still rehabbing.

I hope he gets a contract extentsion, but I also hope it has provisions built to protect the Broncos fully in case theres a problem.

[lex]

But that's all assuming he agrees to the incentive clauses. All he has to do is say No to them and we're back at square one.

Why would he not agree to the incentive clauses if he is getting paid what is commensurate with his production/talent?

A better question is what reason do you have to assume he wont.

[NightTrainLayne]

Why would he not agree to the incentive clauses if he is getting paid what is commensurate with his production/talent?

A better question is what reason do you have to assume he wont.

Why do you have to assume that Bowlen low-balled him? All any of us are doing is assuming, and probably ALL of us are wrong in some manner.

[lex]

Why do you have to assume that Bowlen low-balled him? All any of us are doing is assuming, and probably ALL of us are wrong in some manner.

Youre responding to a post in a different thread.

[NightTrainLayne]

Youre responding to a post in a different thread.

So? Do your assumptions change when you change threads? Mine don't.

[lex]

So? Do your assumptions change when you change threads? Mine don't.


No, they dont change.

[Poet]

As far as only having one legitimate WR goes, I don't think that it matters much.

If you double up a guy, he can still do things on the field. Guys like Steve Smith, Randy Moss, TO, Chad Johnson, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, etc etc etc etc, have done great things while eating a lot of double coverage.

Eddie Royal is a legitimate WR. He reminds me of Wes Welker in the sense that his skill set may "limit" him to a select type of offenses. That being said, when he is in that type of offense you better watch out.

WR is an overrated position. Yeah, the truly elite guys make a huge impact. But, to me they are a position that grows on trees. It's amazing how often the "top spots" for wideouts fluctuate.

No one ever had Fitzgerald as the best WR in the NFL until the playoffs. Hell, most people didn't have Fitzgerald in the top five. Hell, Chad Johnson had a single bad year and people say that he's done. A few years ago it looked like Randy Moss was done. People thought he lost a step. Brandon Marshall appeared out of nowhere. Braylon Edwards sucked, had a great year, and now he sucks again.

My point (or ramble) is that WRs are insane, they come and go, and while they can do some damn great things they are replaced easily. Look at Pittsburgh for instance. Plaxico Burress looked like he was going to be a great player in Pittsburgh, then they didn't resign him.

Hines Ward kept it going, and then servicable but pretty average guys like Anwan Randle El, Cedric Wilson, Nate Washington did their part. Then they went out and found a guy who looks like he is going to kill it this year in Santonio Holmes.

Offensive lineman are hard to replace. Cornerbacks and quarterbacks and defensive lineman are hard to replace. Wide Recievers? Meh.

Signing him long term would not be a bad thing.

But breaking the bank for any WR is always risky. Especially for a guy with his history.

That is why I loathe players like Marshall so much. I mean their play dictates that they may be the exception to the rule, but then they basically can hold a team halfway hostage.

[rcsodak]

I know I should know better by now, but I still just dont get it. Cutler and Marshall. All they've done is show promise, while at the same time show mistakes and immaturity and yet they feel they can demand anything they want. Marshall will most likely not get the same amount of catches in this offense and maybe he knows that and is looking for the extension now before that happens. What the hell is wrong with our youth that money becomes the priority?

I remember playing baseball in college and always saying that I would take a lesser contract from the orioles if they wanted me. For me it was about playing the game and just being an added bonus if I could play for my favorite team.

These guys say they play for the team and the team goals, but the second they over-value themselves...and they seem to always do...it's all about the money. "I want to take care of my family". Screw that. I have 4 kids and I take care of my family just fine and I make nowhere near what they make. It just gets old and personally, I could care less if he gets shipped out too.

Of course you'd say you'd take less.....

AT FIRST!

But that 2nd/3rd contract is when EVERY player wants to hit it big.

[rcsodak]

It most certainly is true. The guy is great in those situations. But one of the reasons our offense was bogged down inside the 20 (more specifically the 10), is that with so many RBs going down, the run was less of a threat and that only made throwing that much more congested. When we had Pittman as a short yardage specialist, we were able to score TDs whether by running or passing. Same was true when we had Hillis. But after he went down, there was really no one for that kind of situation, which, like I said, made it toughter to throw because of congestion. If you can roll coverage to one receiver the way defenses could against Marshall last year (again the lack of a running game), then any WR is going to have a challenge scoring.

Not only that, but Marshall played with a bad hip last year and also that lingering arm injury...and still produced.

Surely you can find some more excuses.... :rolleyes:

Marsh is great between the 20's, just like cut-n-run'er was. But when it came to getting into the endzone, they both lacked that 'finishing touch'. Not to mention both of their tendencies for the TO.

[rcsodak]

Exactly, but why bother stating that to people who could give a shit less and just think it is fun to piss on players by attempts at being witty with nicknames like "Morons Anonymous" and "Mar$$$$hall!" -- It is just easier to do that!

Yeah, because you'd NEVER do that, now would you...... :coffee:

[rcsodak]

As far as only having one legitimate WR goes, I don't think that it matters much.

No one ever had Fitzgerald as the best WR in the NFL until the playoffs. Hell, most people didn't have Fitzgerald in the top five. .

Huh?

Fitz has been considered a top WR since he arrived!

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Yeah, because you'd NEVER do that, now would you...... :coffee:

Except when I'm doing it, I'm only kidding. (Diabetes Boy) Almost as good as Cut'n'Runner, I mean -- that's epic. You managed to take a recent political nametag and place it on our old quarterback. Quality stuff.

[BroncoWave]

As far as only having one legitimate WR goes, I don't think that it matters much.

If you double up a guy, he can still do things on the field. Guys like Steve Smith, Randy Moss, TO, Chad Johnson, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, etc etc etc etc, have done great things while eating a lot of double coverage.

Eddie Royal is a legitimate WR. He reminds me of Wes Welker in the sense that his skill set may "limit" him to a select type of offenses. That being said, when he is in that type of offense you better watch out.

WR is an overrated position. Yeah, the truly elite guys make a huge impact. But, to me they are a position that grows on trees. It's amazing how often the "top spots" for wideouts fluctuate.

No one ever had Fitzgerald as the best WR in the NFL until the playoffs. Hell, most people didn't have Fitzgerald in the top five. Hell, Chad Johnson had a single bad year and people say that he's done. A few years ago it looked like Randy Moss was done. People thought he lost a step. Brandon Marshall appeared out of nowhere. Braylon Edwards sucked, had a great year, and now he sucks again.

My point (or ramble) is that WRs are insane, they come and go, and while they can do some damn great things they are replaced easily. Look at Pittsburgh for instance. Plaxico Burress looked like he was going to be a great player in Pittsburgh, then they didn't resign him.

Hines Ward kept it going, and then servicable but pretty average guys like Anwan Randle El, Cedric Wilson, Nate Washington did their part. Then they went out and found a guy who looks like he is going to kill it this year in Santonio Holmes.

Offensive lineman are hard to replace. Cornerbacks and quarterbacks and defensive lineman are hard to replace. Wide Recievers? Meh.

Signing him long term would not be a bad thing.

But breaking the bank for any WR is always risky. Especially for a guy with his history.

That is why I loathe players like Marshall so much. I mean their play dictates that they may be the exception to the rule, but then they basically can hold a team halfway hostage.

Sorry man I gotta call you out on that. Almost everyone has had Fitzgerald in the top 5 for years. Anyone who pays close attention to football at least. And there were definitely a handful of people who thought he was the best in the league, including me.

[Poet]

Sorry man I gotta call you out on that. Almost everyone has had Fitzgerald in the top 5 for years. Anyone who pays close attention to football at least. And there were definitely a handful of people who thought he was the best in the league, including me.

For a very long time most people's top five was TO, Harrison, Chad Johnson, Steve Smith, and then a whole long slew of other players in that mix slot ranging from Hines Ward, Andre Johnson, Torry Holt, and yeah even Fitz.

The thing is, most of those guys in my top five were almost auto includes. Fitzgerald has had some consistency issues in his career. This was the first time in his career that he has had back to back 1k plus yard seasons. http://www.nfl.com/players/larryfitzgerald/profile?id=FIT437493

You could also change the statement to "if people had him there then they were wrong."

[lex]

Surely you can find some more excuses.... :rolleyes:

Marsh is great between the 20's, just like cut-n-run'er was. But when it came to getting into the endzone, they both lacked that 'finishing touch'. Not to mention both of their tendencies for the TO.

My "excuses" are less hollow than your cliche name calling.