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Lonestar
06-13-2009, 08:15 PM
Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:46 am EDT

It appears Brandon Marshall might be done in DenverDenver Broncos wide receiver Brandon Marshall(notes) arrived at the team's headquarters Friday, met with owner Pat Bowlen and left carrying packed boxes leading to speculation he has played his last game in Denver, according to the Denver Post.

While rehabilitating from hip surgery, Marshall doesn't want to be treated by the Broncos' medical staff if the team won't give him a new contract. Marshall sent that message both through his absence from the start of the Broncos' mandatory minicamp Friday morning and presumably during his audience with Bowlen on Friday afternoon.
Bowlen could not be reached for comment. Marshall likely will be fined for each day he does not report to the three-day camp that ends Sunday, the Post reported.

"We'll do what the league rules allow us to do for a player that has missed a mandatory activity," McDaniels said. "The rest of that is really internal. I've spoken to him and his agent, and that's a decision that he's made."


http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/rumors/post/It-appears-Brandon-Marshall-might-be-done-in-Den?urn=nfl,169986

Hoshdude7
06-13-2009, 08:21 PM
Worst offseason ever. We are ******

Lonestar
06-13-2009, 08:30 PM
Worst offseason ever. We are ******


not at all we will do fine to great depending on how many folks get the scheme and work it.. LIKE a team..

this is a team sport and when you have a couple of folks inflating their numbers for more money and fame over what is best for the team then you get folks that say the defenses was treated like a second class citizens..

they want to win as a team sure they need leader and that was what John and Jake were their teammates liked them and would do anything they could for them..

Frankly I did not see that in jay or mar$$$hall.. maybe not so much brandon but jay was always like Griese was a loner on the sidelines..

now when mar$$$ got the ball he was a load no doubt about it.. but he was very immature and IMO a ticking time bomb..

like great warriors should be kept in a frozen state until they are needed and you thaw them out and let them fight your wars..

mar$$$ should be kept at Dove Valley in a cage and feed raw meat and given hookers to sate those apptietites and then allowed out on game day only..

NameUsedBefore
06-13-2009, 08:39 PM
^wtf?

Anyway, I agree that this is probably the worst offseason ever.

Superchop 7
06-13-2009, 08:45 PM
Good buzz......leave him alone.

As for Brandon, I love it, wish him the best, the sooner McDaniels is out of Denver.....the better.......and this helps.

Rick
06-13-2009, 08:46 PM
I think if there is a problem with BMarsh it will be far greater than a Cutler issue.

BMarsh is the type of reciever you can throw a short pass too and have him turn it into a huge gain, can throw it to him in traffic, etc. he is a beast.

Royal is great at getting open and will be a star but I want both of them, they complement each other.

jrelway
06-13-2009, 08:49 PM
ill hold off the anger until he officially gets traded..but WTF?!

jrelway
06-13-2009, 08:57 PM
btw, dont take yahoos word for anything when it comes to sports. they like to hype shit up

UnderArmour
06-13-2009, 09:04 PM
This situation is more like Devin Hester's last offseason. We'll cave in and sign him to an extension eventually, just not quite the one Marshall wants. He'll give up after all the fines start piling up.

Hoshdude7
06-13-2009, 09:06 PM
This situation is more like Devin Hester's last offseason. We'll cave in and sign him to an extension eventually, just not quite the one Marshall wants. He'll give up after all the fines start piling up.

I'm expecting the worst from now on

BroncoAV06
06-13-2009, 09:08 PM
Team concept is great, no doubt you want to have all the cancers out of the locker room, but the world is not perfect. A team full of "team players" is great but will only go so far. You do have to have talent to win. Stoke is not an every down player, then all you have is Royal and Gaff, with a rookie, and Sceff. Now the running game looks to play a bigger part but this is still an offense that will run mainly from shotgun and count on YAC, and what does Brandon do?

I know we all hope that they can work things out. But at some point the team has to realize that they can not just get rid of everyone that is not happy go lucky.

SoCalImport
06-13-2009, 09:10 PM
This is not new news. B-Marsh is holding out. Not surprising.
It's gonna be interesting to see what Pat ultimately does. He met with Marshal, and made a decision. If he put the ball in Marshals court and B.Marsh wants to sit out. So be it.

Broncospsycho77
06-13-2009, 09:13 PM
Yeah, uh, we could be awful without BMarsh on one side of the field.

He's a weapon and attracts other players to him. Just his presence changes the defenses' looks.

Shazam!
06-13-2009, 09:34 PM
I will not overreact until there is something concrete.

broncohead
06-13-2009, 09:47 PM
not at all we will do fine to great depending on how many folks get the scheme and work it.. LIKE a team..

this is a team sport and when you have a couple of folks inflating their numbers for more money and fame over what is best for the team then you get folks that say the defenses was treated like a second class citizens..

they want to win as a team sure they need leader and that was what John and Jake were their teammates liked them and would do anything they could for them..

Frankly I did not see that in jay or mar$$$hall.. maybe not so much brandon but jay was always like Griese was a loner on the sidelines..

now when mar$$$ got the ball he was a load no doubt about it.. but he was very immature and IMO a ticking time bomb..

like great warriors should be kept in a frozen state until they are needed and you thaw them out and let them fight your wars..

mar$$$ should be kept at Dove Valley in a cage and feed raw meat and given hookers to sate those apptietites and then allowed out on game day only..

He is getting paid like a 4th round draft pick with top 10 production. I completaly see where he's coming from. Now if he's asking for a big contract I can see why the FO would hesitate.

underrated29
06-13-2009, 09:57 PM
I dont know about all that...

Its been reported that he is holding out until he gets a new contract. Thats why he packed up the boxes. Not because he was being cut or traded.

He does not want to show up to our trainers without a new contract. Plus the already aformentioned he is a top 15 WR inthe NFL and is getting paid less than 70 wr.

I cant even name 70 WR....... THats how little he is making. 32 teams, i can name probably the top wr or top 2 on each team and thats 64, then i can name our and a few other teams 3/4th wr......Thats pathetic.



I hate this. And i am starting to hate Mcd, weather its his fault or not. I need a scape goat and unfortunately i cant blame the ex wife.

honz
06-13-2009, 10:20 PM
WTF? I'm gone for a couple days and now Marshall is acting like a crybaby too?

Lonestar
06-13-2009, 10:40 PM
This situation is more like Devin Hester's last off season. We'll cave in and sign him to an extension eventually, just not quite the one Marshall wants. He'll give up after all the fines start piling up.

I think your right here BUT hr id hurting his cause by not being in camp participating in the meetings and coaching sessions.. for that matter being on the sideline watching what is going on.. he is now some 14-15 session behind his fellow WR and will take time to get him up to speed in just learning the routes..


He is getting paid like a 4th round draft pick with top 10 production. I completely see where he's coming from. Now if he's asking for a big contract I can see why the FO would hesitate.

He is a 4th round draft choice that became the favorite receives to a QB that is no LONGER HERE the system has changed and he will no longer have to catch in heavy traffic because the D will be hard pressed to give him double coverage when we are NOW LOOKING for the open ma instead of forcing the ball to him.. He is talented but will he have the same value in the new scheme as the old one?..


I dont know about all that...

Its been reported that he is holding out until he gets a new contract. Thats why he packed up the boxes. Not because he was being cut or traded.

He does not want to show up to our trainers without a new contract. Plus the already aforementioned he is a top 15 WR Ianthe NFL and is getting paid less than 70 WR.

I cant even name 70 WR....... Thats how little he is making. 32 teams, i can name probably the top WR or top 2 on each team and thats 64, then i can name our and a few other teams 3/4th wr......Thats pathetic.



I hate this. And i am starting to hate Mcd, weather its his fault or not. I need a scape goat and unfortunately i cant blame the ex wife.

I find it hard to believe that are 70 WR that are making more than 2.2 a year also.. sometimes numbers are not all they are made out to be..


WTF? I'm gone for a couple days and now Marshall is acting like a crybaby too?

yep got pro bowl fever.. like poorti$$$, a$$$hley, jay, javon did.. they were suffering from egotism, money depe$$$ion..

Requiem / The Dagda
06-13-2009, 10:48 PM
Why wouldn't Brandon have the same value in this scheme? He'll be consistently split out and put in various receiving positions, giving versatility to his game and the ability to go against different defenses from several slots. The only reason Marshall won't get the same production on the field this year is the fact that he won't be getting thrown the ball over 180 times; he still has a lot to offer in the offense.

broncohead
06-13-2009, 11:00 PM
[QUOTE]He is a 4th round draft choice that became the favorite receives to a QB that is no LONGER HERE the system has changed and he will no longer have to catch in heavy traffic because the D will be hard pressed to give him double coverage when we are NOW LOOKING for the open ma instead of forcing the ball to him.. He is talented but will he have the same value in the new scheme as the old one?..

He became the favorite target for a reason. When he has the ball in his hands he is a nightmare. Thats why team double cover him. The system will help Marshall as much as the QB. Why? Because it will allow other recievers to get open making it harder to focus on one guy.


yep got pro bowl fever.. like poorti$$$, a$$$hley, jay, javon did.. they were suffering from egotism, money depe$$$ion..

Ya it's easy to find young pro bowl talent. They are everywhere.

Lonestar
06-13-2009, 11:03 PM
Why wouldn't Brandon have the same value in this scheme? He'll be consistently split out and put in various receiving positions, giving versatility to his game and the ability to go against different defenses from several slots. The only reason Marshall won't get the same production on the field this year is the fact that he won't be getting thrown the ball over 180 times; he still has a lot to offer in the offense.



yes he does have the same value as any of the other WR has.. he was used more last year because of the pro bowl fever that they got, as well as the O was wide open for the passing game.. IMO mike saw it as his only salvation.. I suspect that jay rarely if ever was talked to about going deep when there was a guy wide open short..


it will be a controlled game this year with the QB getting his ass chewed off if he overlooks the open guy to go deep like what happened last year..

this year is is all about moving the chains and TOP and scoring in the red zone for the offenses.. NO TURNOVERS.. who were the biggest TO machines last year.. one is gone a nd the other is about to step out the door..

Lonestar
06-13-2009, 11:10 PM
He became the favorite target for a reason. When he has the ball in his hands he is a nightmare. Thats why team double cover him. The system will help Marshall as much as the QB. Why? Because it will allow other recievers to get open making it harder to focus on one guy.



Ya it's easy to find young pro bowl talent. They are everywhere.

no it is not easy to find pro bowl talent, but sometimes you do not need it either..

in this upcoming scheme they will find open receivers because frankly in most cases they will be playing their 3-4-5th best DB on one of our WR and the confusion created by the patterns will cause someone to be open.. you do not have to have pro bowlers to cause that..

not to mention we have at least two really good receiving TE's and all of our running backs are good to great at catching the ball..


IIRC NE won a lot of games, play off games and a couple super bowls with out a mar$$$hall type WR.. In fact when they got a stud WR they lost the next SUPERBOWL almost getting a perfect season.. now that is not to say he was the cause they lost, but he did not bail the team out in that game either..

horsepig
06-13-2009, 11:14 PM
lots of good points. Bottom line-is he worth the suspense every off-season, will he be available for the first game, 2'nd, 8'th?

I love the guy, who fights harder for yac?

Can he play in Mcd's controlled game? Can he run precise routes and read the defense and make the correct check-off? I have my doubts. Cutler and BM played a lot of sandlot football the last two years.

gobroncsnv
06-13-2009, 11:18 PM
I want Marshall to be here, but I'm a Broncos fan more than I am a fan of his. If he's gonna get rid of the Baby TO label, and just become TO, then he's making me lose interest.

I don't profess to know what the story is, and will wait to see what the final outcome is. Doesn't look really good, but McDaniels is being more like Herb Brooks... doesn't want the BEST players, he wants the RIGHT players. He's seen the Pats' way work for a number of years, and knows that system, which is to have a team that wins, instead of a team that can collect stats. And it's kind of interesting how the Pats didn't win it all once they finally got a superstar wideout, but they did win with decent team players previous to Moss getting there. (and I hope they NEVER get rings while Moss is there.)

Like it or not folks, he's building towards what he has seen work. I'm not saying I'm sold on his every move, but he's making it pretty clear what his plan is, and how he rolls.

broncohead
06-13-2009, 11:18 PM
yes he does have the same value as any of the other WR has.. he was used more last year because of the pro bowl fever that they got, as well as the O was wide open for the passing game.. IMO mike saw it as his only salvation.. I suspect that jay rarely if ever was talked to about going deep when there was a guy wide open short..


it will be a controlled game this year with the QB getting his ass chewed off if he overlooks the open guy to go deep like what happened last year..

this year is is all about moving the chains and TOP and scoring in the red zone for the offenses.. NO TURNOVERS.. who were the biggest TO machines last year.. one is gone a nd the other is about to step out the door..

We could talk to death about the Jay trade but the fact is Marshall is still a Bronco. If he doesn't play this year the offense will struggle with only 1 maybe 2 difference makers where Marshall is a playmaker.

Lonestar
06-13-2009, 11:20 PM
lots of good points. Bottom line-is he worth the suspense every off-season, will he be available for the first game, 2'nd, 8'th?

I love the guy, who fights harder for yac?

Can he play in Mcd's controlled game? Can he run precise routes and read the defense and make the correct check-off? I have my doubts. Cutler and BM played a lot of sandlot football the last two years.

I believe this to be a very true statement.. and if the maestro is gone who is gonna get him the ball if he is not controlled and I think because of all of his personal FUBARs since coming to DEN, there has to be a HUGE doubt in the HC and WR coaches mind.. on whether he can be our kind of controlled TEAM WR.. or if he can DOES he want to be..

broncohead
06-13-2009, 11:25 PM
[QUOTE]no it is not easy to find pro bowl talent, but sometimes you do not need it either..

in this upcoming scheme they will find open receivers because frankly in most cases they will be playing their 3-4-5th best DB on one of our WR and the confusion created by the patterns will cause someone to be open.. you do not have to have pro bowlers to cause that..

Brady is an all pro QB. I guess I don't get your point because Orton is no Brady.


not to mention we have at least two really good receiving TE's and all of our running backs are good to great at catching the ball..

We have 1. Graham hasn't shown the ability to catch passes consistantly.


IIRC NE won a lot of games, play off games and a couple super bowls with out a mar$$$hall type WR.. In fact when they got a stud WR they lost the next SUPERBOWL almost getting a perfect season.. now that is not to say he was the cause they lost, but he did not bail the team out in that game either..

Actually Marshall and Moss are 2 different types of WR and we don't even have a defense to compare.

Lonestar
06-13-2009, 11:25 PM
We could talk to death about the Jay trade but the fact is Marshall is still a Bronco. If he doesn't play this year the offense will struggle with only 1 maybe 2 difference makers where Marshall is a playmaker.


we have 4-5 difference makers on this team, Hillis, Moreno, Stokely, Royal, Scheffler, Graham, Jabbey with several others waiting in the wings to move up.. to play team ball.. every RB we have can catch and run with the ball..

would I like to have this moron back sure but not if he is not ready to play mentally as well as physically..

broncohead
06-13-2009, 11:33 PM
we have 4-5 difference makers on this team, Hillis, Moreno, Stokely, Royal, Scheffler, Graham, Jabbey with several others waiting in the wings to move up.. to play team ball.. every RB we have can catch and run with the ball..

would I like to have this moron back sure but not if he is not ready to play mentally as well as physically..

If we had that many difference makers wouldn't we have scored more?

Lonestar
06-13-2009, 11:44 PM
I dont know about all that...

Its been reported that he is holding out until he gets a new contract. Thats why he packed up the boxes. Not because he was being cut or traded.

He does not want to show up to our trainers without a new contract. Plus the already aformentioned he is a top 15 WR inthe NFL and is getting paid less than 70 wr.

I cant even name 70 WR....... THats how little he is making. 32 teams, i can name probably the top wr or top 2 on each team and thats 64, then i can name our and a few other teams 3/4th wr......Thats pathetic.



I hate this. And i am starting to hate Mcd, weather its his fault or not. I need a scape goat and unfortunately i cant blame the ex wife.


I just looked up the 2008 Salaries for WR and here are all the guys that made more that mar$$$hall will this coming year.. $2.2 MILLION now not everyone is still on this list but I suspect those like Harrison that are gone will be replaced by someone else and 2009 Salaries are not out yet.. he also made about 2.1 after all bonuses like the pro bowl and such last year..

this is sorted by actaul salery and not cap value..




Position
2008 WR

Player Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value
Fitzgerald, Larry Cardinals $ 2,100,000 $ 15,000,000 $ 3,480 $ 17,103,480 $ 6,996,814
Moss, Randy Patriots $ 1,900,000 $ 12,000,000 $ 106,720 $ 14,006,720 $ 6,006,720
Owens, Terrell Cowboys $ 830,000 $ 12,900,000 $ 1,560 $ 13,731,560 $ 5,723,228
Berrian, Bernard Vikings $ 605,000 $ 5,000,000 $ 8,100,000 $ 13,705,000 $ 9,538,333
Walker, Javon Raiders $ 1,000,000 $ 11,000,000 $ 960 $ 12,000,960 $ 2,834,293
Evans, Lee Bills $ 11,730,770 $ 0 $ 88,042 $ 11,818,812 $ 10,462,627
Johnson, Andre Texans $ 2,825,000 $ 6,500,000 $ 1,850,000 $ 11,175,000 $ 8,704,848
Burress, Plaxico Giants $ 2,000,000 $ 4,250,000 $ 1,600,000 $ 7,850,000 $ 5,892,353
Smith, Steve L. (Stevonne, WR) Panthers $ 1,750,000 $ 6,000,000 $ 1,320 $ 7,751,320 $ 5,874,210
Harrison, Marvin Colts $ 7,600,000 $ 0 $ 0 $ 7,600,000 $ 12,000,000
Porter, Jerry Jaguars $ 900,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 3,600,000 $ 7,500,000 $ 5,000,000
Colston, Marques Saints $ 500,000 $ 5,000,000 $ 1,953,360 $ 7,453,360 $ 3,142,810
Wilford, Ernest Dolphins $ 1,000,000 $ 6,000,000 $ 5,640 $ 7,005,640 $ 2,505,640
Holt, Torry Rams $ 5,650,000 $ 0 $ 1,350,000 $ 7,000,000 $ 9,204,714
Gage, Justin Titans $ 1,000,000 $ 4,500,000 $ 1,103,480 $ 6,603,480 $ 3,128,480
Davis, Andre' Texans $ 3,100,000 $ 3,400,000 $ 6,720 $ 6,506,720 $ 3,956,720
Johnson, Calvin Lions $ 1,883,438 $ 0 $ 4,379,487 $ 6,262,925 $ 3,488,238
Stokley, Brandon Broncos $ 830,000 $ 5,000,000 $ 230,000 $ 6,060,000 $ 2,645,416
Chambers, Chris Chargers $ 5,100,000 $ 2,250,000 $ 603,840 $ 5,703,840 $ 5,853,840
Hester, Devin Bears $ 445,000 $ 5,000,000 $ 47,500 $ 5,492,500 $ 1,628,333
Ward, Hines Steelers $ 4,700,000 $ 5,000,000 $ 753,840 $ 5,453,840 $ 6,703,840
Edwards, Braylon Browns $ 4,350,000 $ 6,500,000 $ 1,100,000 $ 5,450,000 $ 7,993,750
Driver, Donald Packers $ 2,900,000 $ 0 $ 2,331,720 $ 5,231,720 $ 5,681,720
Stallworth, Donte' Browns $ 605,000 $ 4,500,000 $ 50,000 $ 5,155,000 $ 1,405,000
Williams, Roy E. Lions $ 3,724,500 $ 4,500,000 $ 1,310,000 $ 5,034,500 $ 6,292,834
Coles, Laveranues Jets $ 5,000,000 $ 0 $ 0 $ 5,000,000 $ 6,000,000
Curry, Ronald Raiders $ 2,000,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 2,502,520 $ 4,502,520 $ 5,102,520
Branch, Deion Seahawks $ 3,500,000 $ 7,000,000 $ 664,680 $ 4,164,680 $ 6,764,680
Wayne, Reggie Colts $ 3,500,000 $ 12,500,000 $ 660,000 $ 4,160,000 $ 6,660,000
Bruce, Isaac 49ers $ 1,975,000 $ 1,000,000 $ 1,025,000 $ 4,000,000 $ 3,500,000
Parrish, Roscoe Bills $ 520,000 $ 1,100,000 $ 3,451,080 $ 3,971,080 $ 4,256,080
Toomer, Amani Giants $ 3,100,000 $ 0 $ 700,120 $ 3,800,120 $ 5,200,120
Curtis, Kevin Eagles $ 1,900,000 $ 2,000,000 $ 1,800,000 $ 3,700,000 $ 3,833,333
Johnson, Chad Bengals $ 3,000,000 $ 5,000,000 $ 550,000 $ 3,550,000 $ 6,415,370
Bennett, Drew Rams $ 2,500,000 $ 7,500,000 $ 1,005,160 $ 3,505,160 $ 4,755,160
Ginn, Ted Dolphins $ 370,000 $ 1,970,000 $ 3,054,680 $ 3,424,680 $ 2,341,086
Burleson, Nate Seahawks $ 3,250,000 $ 0 $ 3,720 $ 3,253,720 $ 4,053,720
Moss, Santana Redskins $ 730,000 $ 2,520,000 $ 0 $ 3,250,000 $ 3,783,000
Colbert, Keary Seahawks $ 605,000 $ 2,500,000 $ 6,480 $ 3,111,480 $ 533,824
Hall, Dante' Rams $ 1,927,500 $ 0 $ 1,150,000 $ 3,077,500 $ 1,977,500
Avery, Donnie Rams $ 295,000 $ 1,824,000 $ 951,000 $ 3,070,000 $ 821,000
Galloway, Joey Buccaneers $ 1,767,000 $ 1,800,000 $ 1,251,440 $ 3,018,440 $ 3,503,440
Mason, Derrick Ravens $ 3,000,000 $ 7,000,000 $ 1,800 $ 3,001,800 $ 4,401,800
Patten, David Saints $ 1,000,000 $ 1,500,000 $ 500,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 2,250,000
Nelson, Jordy Packers $ 295,000 $ 1,700,000 $ 1,005,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 1,725,000
Houshmandzadeh, T.J. Bengals $ 2,650,000 $ 3,750,000 $ 200,000 $ 2,850,000 $ 3,687,500
Simpson, Jerome Bengals $ 295,000 $ 1,487,000 $ 900,000 $ 2,682,000 $ 1,091,750
Hardy, James Bills $ 295,000 $ 1,404,000 $ 887,000 $ 2,586,000 $ 711,000
Royal, Eddie Broncos $ 295,000 $ 1,533,000 $ 711,830 $ 2,539,830 $ 1,390,080
Boldin, Anquan Cardinals $ 2,500,000 $ 5,000,000 $ 960 $ 2,500,960 $ 4,500,960
Jurevicius, Joe Browns $ 1,993,750 $ 0 $ 506,250 $ 2,500,000 $ 3,062,500
Reed, Josh Bills $ 1,825,000 $ 2,000,000 $ 675,000 $ 2,500,000 $ 2,925,000
Williamson, Troy Jaguars $ 910,000 $ 0 $ 1,504,800 $ 2,414,800 $ 914,800
El, Antwaan Redskins $ 605,000 $ 1,715,000 $ 960 $ 2,320,960 $ 2,725,126
Battle, Arnaz 49ers $ 1,340,000 $ 0 $ 950,840 $ 2,290,840 $ 2,070,840
Jackson, Dexter (WR) Buccaneers $ 295,000 $ 928,000 $ 1,030,000 $ 2,253,000 $ 984,500
Wade, Bobby Vikings $ 1,950,000 $ 2,000,000 $ 300,000 $ 2,250,000 $ 2,400,000
Walker, Delanie 49ers $ 445,000 $ 1,800,000 $ 4,560 $ 2,249,560 $ 835,060



now I did not count it 3 times but that is 57 WR .. and perhaps the 70 is correct but in todays economy I doubt there was a 20% jump in the numbers of folks this year..

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=133&order=Salary+desc

Northman
06-13-2009, 11:48 PM
Meh, win or lose im a Bronco fan. If Bmarsh gets traded than so be it. Im just a fan, if Bowlen and McD think that guys like Marsh and Cutler dont fit into their big picture thats on their heads not mine. Ive been done quite a while from getting all worked up over things i cant control. Until i see this team perform on the field i cant say this has been the worse offseason yet or not. Did i like Cutler and Marsh as players? Yep. But both have a LOT of growing up to do in different ways. Right now i dont care what happens just so as long as we win. If we tank this year than that falls on McD's shoulders. And at this point he seems like he considers himself accountable and thats all i can ask as a fan.

Lonestar
06-13-2009, 11:49 PM
If we had that many difference makers wouldn't we have scored more?

how may of those were on last years squad and being looked at each play to make one.. how many times a game did you see jay force it to BM when one of the others were open underneath for big yards.. how many RB last year did we go through and how many Turn overs did we have.. stalling drives..

we could have run the ball much more that we did not, but we trying were going deep and we had a lot of 3 and outs because of it..

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 12:06 AM
[QUOTE=Jrwiz;675699]

Brady is an all pro QB. I guess I don't get your point because Orton is no Brady.



We have 1. Graham hasn't shown the ability to catch passes consistantly.



Actually Marshall and Moss are 2 different types of WR and we don't even have a defense to compare.



we do not know if Orton is a Brady or not he has not played a game yet..

Actually we also have Nate 65% and Graham 64% is indeed a damned fine receiver he was not thrown to because it was not fit BIG glory yards last year..



BTW royal was at 70.5%, Scheffler actually had 5.1 YAC and marshall 4.2, Hillis (74.3%) 10.2 YAC and most of his passes were received across the LOS..

you have to remember that both jay and marshall both had 1 million dollar escalators in there contract should the make the pro bowl..

do you not think that was part of the motivation for jay to throw to him 181 times.. almost 30% of his throws.. he caught 57% of his passes yet jay threw for an overall average of 62.3%..

sorry but I truly believe after the bye these two saw the handwriting on the wall and wanted to make as much money this past year as they could..

Tned
06-14-2009, 12:07 AM
He is a 4th round draft choice that became the favorite receives to a QB that is no LONGER HERE the system has changed and he will no longer have to catch in heavy traffic because the D will be hard pressed to give him double coverage when we are NOW LOOKING for the open ma instead of forcing the ball to him.. He is talented but will he have the same value in the new scheme as the old one?..


I know you don't 'really' believe that his value is due to him being Jay's favorite target. I know that you subscribe to the ABM philosiphy and have for some time (anything but Mikey -- which includes any players you associate with him, Jay, Brandon, etc.). However, Marshall has clearly shown he is one of the best WR's in the game both in terms of getting open and being nearly uncoverable, and in terms of production after the catch.

Yes, he was a 4th round steal, as his first three years have shown, but you do everything you can to lock up mid round steals, not drive them out.

As to his value, it should be much higher in McDaniels pass first, spread scheme, not reduced.

broncohead
06-14-2009, 12:13 AM
[QUOTE=broncohead;675706]



we do not know if Orton is a Brady or not he has not played a game yet..

Actually we also have Nate 65% and Graham 64% is indeed a damned fine receiver he was not thrown to because it was not fit BIG glory yards last year..



BTW royal was at 70.5%, Scheffler actually had 5.1 YAC and marshall 4.2, Hillis (74.3%) 10.2 YAC and most of his passes were received across the LOS..

you have to remember that both jay and marshall both had 1 million dollar escalators in there contract should the make the pro bowl..

do you not think that was part of the motivation for jay to throw to him 181 times.. almost 30% of his throws.. he caught 57% of his passes yet jay threw for an overall average of 62.3%..

sorry but I truly believe after the bye these two saw the handwriting on the wall and wanted to make as much money this past year as they could..

Orton has played in several games in the NFL. And to everything else it must be a conspiracy(sp?)

broncohead
06-14-2009, 12:14 AM
how may of those were on last years squad and being looked at each play to make one.. how many times a game did you see jay force it to BM when one of the others were open underneath for big yards.. how many RB last year did we go through and how many Turn overs did we have.. stalling drives..

we could have run the ball much more that we did not, but we trying were going deep and we had a lot of 3 and outs because of it..

I really don't see whre you are going with this. We lost a lot of RBs due to injury and usually we needed to score fast to stay in the game. Marshall, Royal, and Schef where the only 3 I saw consistancy out of.

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 12:16 AM
I know you don't 'really' believe that his value is due to him being Jay's favorite target. I know that you subscribe to the ABM philosiphy and have for some time (anything but Mikey -- which includes any players you associate with him, Jay, Brandon, etc.). However, Marshall has clearly shown he is one of the best WR's in the game both in terms of getting open and being nearly uncoverable, and in terms of production after the catch.

Yes, he was a 4th round steal, as his first three years have shown, but you do everything you can to lock up mid round steals, not drive them out.

As to his value, it should be much higher in McDaniels pass first, spread scheme, not reduced.

see the actually productivity numbers int eh thread above..

him and jay might have just been under productive together compared to some of his other teammates..

and hey try all you want to pin the ABM term on me but that facts are plain to see, both of them were not as great as some seemed to think when you look at real numbers..

Would I rather have him here absolutely, but not at 7+ mill a year..he is not worth that much money in this scheme..

do I want him here YEP right now learning the scheme.. not out signing rebook deals.. even If he can't be on the field he can at least act like teammate, he can learn from eh coaches study film, and attend meetings.. but no rebook was more important.. I wonder how much rehabbing he did those two day while at the rebook place?..

Yes I'd like him in DEN tomorow AM, but without all his baggage as those a team killers..

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 12:26 AM
I really don't see whre you are going with this. We lost a lot of RBs due to injury and usually we needed to score fast to stay in the game. Marshall, Royal, and Schef where the only 3 I saw consistancy out of.

actually no we do not have to score fast we have to control the TOP clock at least trying to run.. the only reason we flinched and passed like no tomorrow was because we did not move the sticks consistently.. and how many times did jay not throw short when they were open.. I saw 4-5 times a game in the games I got to see last year.. 65% of those 64-80 passes last year.. are 42-52 more completions we could have had.. but jay wanted to go deep even IF marshall was double or triple covered..

3-5 times a game moving the stick, along with at least trying to run the ball may have won us a few more games..

when everyone else is catching higher that jays completion 62% why do you try to throw it to the guys that is 5% under your average.. it is because someone panicked .. mike, jay, the coaches in the booth?

Tned
06-14-2009, 12:30 AM
see the actually productivity numbers int eh thread above..

him and jay might have just been under productive together compared to some of his other teammates..

and hey try all you want to pin the ABM term on me but that facts are plain to see, both of them were not as great as some seemed to think when you look at real numbers..

Would I rather have him here absolutely, but not at 7+ mill a year..he is not worth that much money in this scheme..

do I want him here YEP right now learning the scheme.. not out signing rebook deals.. even If he can't be on the field he can at least act like teammate, he can learn from eh coaches study film, and attend meetings.. but no rebook was more important.. I wonder how much rehabbing he did those two day while at the rebook place?..

Yes I'd like him in DEN tomorow AM, but without all his baggage as those a team killers..

You're not picking 'real' numbers, but cherry picking numbers to tear down players/coaches you don't like.

Of course Scheff's YPC were higher, he was the stretch the field guy, alah whitten, or Sharpe back in the day.

Did Marshall have some drops, sure. He was also a third year player coming off a serious hand injury.

He went up against a few of the best corners in the league and made them look like chumps in terms of their being able to cover him.

When you put your Mikey/Jay hate aside, can you 'honestly' say the Broncos will be a better team with Royal as the Number one WR and Stokely/Gaffney as the number two next year than they would be with Marshall at one and Royal at two?

broncohead
06-14-2009, 12:38 AM
actually no we do not have to score fast we have to control the TOP clock at least trying to run.. the only reason we flinched and passed like no tomorrow was because we did not move the sticks consistently.. and how many times did jay not throw short when they were open.. I saw 4-5 times a game in the games I got to see last year.. 65% of those 64-80 passes last year.. are 42-52 more completions we could have had.. but jay wanted to go deep even IF marshall was double or triple covered..

3-5 times a game moving the stick, along with at least trying to run the ball may have won us a few more games..

when everyone else is catching higher that jays completion 62% why do you try to throw it to the guys that is 5% under your average.. it is because someone panicked .. mike, jay, the coaches in the booth?

Jay isn't a Bornco. This is about Marshall and what he brings as a WR. I would give him top 15 contract easy from his production the last 2 years. He has been a team player for the last 3 years and when he wants to extend as a BRONCO people say he's not a team player. He asked for a new contract before practices started so it gave the FO plenty of time to get one together.

ikillz0mbies
06-14-2009, 12:41 AM
Well...this has been a tumultuous off-season. But in the end, I'm a Bronco fan. If Marshall wants to hold out. Fine. I honestly don't think he is worth a shit load of money knowing the risk he has with him. But if he gets traded, I hope it is for the right deal. This is about team ball, not me-me-me. Marshall needs to realize that if he wants the money, he needs to show he can keep out of trouble and stay healthy. Will I miss him if he goes? Sure, but I won't flip out over it. If the Broncos can produce this season without Marshall and Cutler, everyone will forget who they are. I just want the season to start already....

OaklandRaider
06-14-2009, 12:41 AM
This could get real interesting.

Both Marshall and McDaniels have huge egos, so there's no telling how far this could go.

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 12:42 AM
You're not picking 'real' numbers, but cherry picking numbers to tear down players/coaches you don't like.

Of course Scheff's YPC were higher, he was the stretch the field guy, alah whitten, or Sharpe back in the day.

Did Marshall have some drops, sure. He was also a third year player coming off a serious hand injury.

He went up against a few of the best corners in the league and made them look like chumps in terms of their being able to cover him.

When you put your Mikey/Jay hate aside, can you 'honestly' say the Broncos will be a better team with Royal as the Number one WR and Stokely/Gaffney as the number two next year than they would be with Marshall at one and Royal at two?

no those were all YAC and percentage of catches made.. go ahead and pick your own players I just grabbed a few of them.. I did not cheery pick them..

as far as do I think marshall is better than Royal I do not know in this system and not sure what royals numbers would have been last year.. but is is clear to me that last year he was a much more efficient WR than BM was..


get off the mike jay hate thingy am I glad they are gone yes only because we should be a better TEAM with out them..

I think they were superb at what they did best OC and passer .. but as a Gm and decision maker respectively I will not miss them at all..

night I have early church in the morning..

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 12:44 AM
This could get real interesting.

Both Marshall and McDaniels have huge egos, so there's no telling how far this could go.

its gone already.. he packed his bags and is hoping someone will call about a trade at this point..

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 12:51 AM
Jay isn't a Bornco. This is about Marshall and what he brings as a WR. I would give him top 15 contract easy from his production the last 2 years. He has been a team player for the last 3 years and when he wants to extend as a BRONCO people say he's not a team player. He asked for a new contract before practices started so it gave the FO plenty of time to get one together.3

Glad you like him so much you would potentially waste all that money.. not knowing if his hand was alright, his hip was healed, IF he can play in a controlled offense, if he will not be in jail or suspended .. next week because he can't control himself on or off the field..

I'll wait to find out these things before giving him $10-20 million in guaranteed money..

and it really seems that this is indeed not really about rehabbing in FL but actually about money afterall..

add lying to the list of issues to be concerned about..

WARHORSE
06-14-2009, 12:54 AM
Marshall is a stud.

Anyone who doesnt see that is pretty blind to football talent.

I dont care how he does it...........he does it.


In this league, thats what matters.

We are a better team with him. He provides us with a WR who is so dominantly huge and strong. Not only that, but he can make nimble CBs miss a tackel in a phone booth when healthy.

Hes worth more money, but hes also a risk due to his off the field issues.

No one is effective sitting at home suspended for eight games.

So theres alot to be considered on both sides.


In the end, I HOPE BRANDON MARSHALL IS A DENVER BRONCO FOR THE NEXT FIVE YEARS minimum, as long as he keeps his nose clean.

I am not interested in DRAFT PICKS, even if we hit on Moreno, Ayers, Smith and Quinn.

Marshall has many GOOD off the field traits that dont get mentioned a whole lot around here either.

Hes young, immature, and needs some help.


A risk? Yes, some. Worth it? Only if it pays off.

WARHORSE
06-14-2009, 12:55 AM
3

Glad you like him so much you would potentially waste all that money.. not knowing if his hand was alright, his hip was healed, IF he can play in a controlled offense, if he will not be in jail or suspended .. next week because he can't control himself on or off the field..

I'll wait to find out these things before giving him $10-20 million in guaranteed money..

and it really seems that this is indeed not really about rehabbing in FL but actually about money afterall..

add lying to the list of issues to be concerned about..


Lets hope it works out for the best.

Nature Boy
06-14-2009, 12:56 AM
Can we fire Pat Bowlen?

.

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 12:58 AM
Marshall is a stud.

Anyone who doesnt see that is pretty blind to football talent.

I dont care how he does it...........he does it.


In this league, thats what matters.

We are a better team with him. He provides us with a WR who is so dominantly huge and strong. Not only that, but he can make nimble CBs miss a tackel in a phone booth when healthy.

Hes worth more money, but hes also a risk due to his off the field issues.

No one is effective sitting at home suspended for eight games.

So theres alot to be considered on both sides.


In the end, I HOPE BRANDON MARSHALL IS A DENVER BRONCO FOR THE NEXT FIVE YEARS minimum, as long as he keeps his nose clean.

I am not interested in DRAFT PICKS, even if we hit on Moreno, Ayers, Smith and Quinn.

Marshall has many GOOD off the field traits that dont get mentioned a whole lot around here either.

Hes young, immature, and needs some help.


A risk? Yes, some. Worth it? Only if it pays off.


I agree with this almost 100%.. good middle ground.. I too hope he will remove his head from his ass and get to work.. and that he does indeed get a contract after we have answered all the questions on his trouble slate..

Nature Boy
06-14-2009, 12:59 AM
I can't wait til Josh McDaniels is run out of town. I give him 2.5 seasons. I'm gonna go ahead and blame Josh McDummass too if Brandon Marshall does not wear orange and blue this season.

.

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 01:51 AM
yes he does have the same value as any of the other WR has.. he was used more last year because of the pro bowl fever that they got, as well as the O was wide open for the passing game.. IMO mike saw it as his only salvation.. I suspect that jay rarely if ever was talked to about going deep when there was a guy wide open short.

I'm not sure what you are saying. The Broncos tossed up the ball a lot last year because they didn't have a solid running game to go off of. I imagine Brandon Marshall will not have 180+ targets this year if he remains on the team given the fact we will run the ball more and much better (hopefully) and have other options to throw to. His value as a receiver is still incredible, regardless. I expect him to easily get 100+ targets though, as he should being a premier receiver. If you are trying to say that Brandon Marshall's value here in Denver is the same as Chad Jackson's or Matthew Wills' be my guess -- but that certainly isn't the case.

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 02:07 AM
As far as efficiency goes, Brandon Marshall was targeted 181 times. He had 12 drops and 104 catches. Total, he had a 57% catch rate. You take away the drops from the targets, and there are about 65 balls that were either deflected or incomplete passes not having to do with Brandon. He's catching darn near 60% of the balls that go his way, which is quite impressive to say the least. Like T said earlier, he is going to be in a spread offense which will help maximize his value as well. He'll be able to get creative in different match-ups and have the ability to put up big numbers.

I couldn't find all Royal's numbers, but I can guarantee you Eddie will be a lot better of a receiver with Marshall on the field than without him. For obvious reasons that don't need explaining. (Double teams, mismatches, etc.)

Timmy!
06-14-2009, 03:23 AM
Marshall wants to get paid. I can understand that. The Broncos don't want to get burned. I can understand that as well. Marshall has off field issues, and serious injury concerns. There's a reason he didn't have a single TD in the last 3 games of the season. Is his hand ever going to be ok? What about the hip? That's a major surgery for a WR. If you look at the games (god I love my DVR) he was never the same after he hurt it. It's hard to throw a bunch of $$$ at a guy until he proves he is healthy and can stay out of trouble. I love Marshall, he's amazing (when healthy) and, in IMO, our #1 offensive weapon. BUT, I'm not in favor of giving him some huge contract. If he would settle for a 2 or 3 year deal, with huge incentive payouts, I'd be all for it. This rewards Marshall for hard work and production, and still protects the Broncos. If Marshall is looking for some 5 or 6 year deal with a huge signing bonus it's just not worth it. He needs to realize he's on thin ice, in several categories.

Also, blaming McKid for this is friggin retarded. The HC doesn't handle contracts. Say what you want about the Cutler debacle, but this is a totally different animal.

If I'm the Broncos FO, I'm on the phone to the best available free agent WR (Jerry Porter anyone?!) and talking about a 1 year incentive laden deal. Insurance is good.

Denver27og
06-14-2009, 03:26 AM
some dumb SOBS.. so the same fans that are happy cutler is gone are the same ones that say good riddance to marshall... are you guys really fans of the broncos or fans of mcdaniels the qb coach from NE that thinks hes billicheck?? marshall... the kid caught over 100 balls the past 2 years.. pay the kid dammmm... wtf is going on... i kind of hope we get killed early and fast this coming up season because the faster we get rid of mcdaniels the better...

Denver27og
06-14-2009, 03:28 AM
Marshall wants to get paid. I can understand that. The Broncos don't want to get burned. I can understand that as well. Marshall has off field issues, and serious injury concerns. There's a reason he didn't have a single TD in the last 3 games of the season. Is his hand ever going to be ok? What about the hip? That's a major surgery for a WR. If you look at the games (god I love my DVR) he was never the same after he hurt it. It's hard to throw a bunch of $$$ at a guy until he proves he is healthy and can stay out of trouble. I love Marshall, he's amazing (when healthy) and, in IMO, our #1 offensive weapon. BUT, I'm not in favor of giving him some huge contract. If he would settle for a 2 or 3 year deal, with huge incentive payouts, I'd be all for it. This rewards Marshall for hard work and production, and still protects the Broncos. If Marshall is looking for some 5 or 6 year deal with a huge signing bonus it's just not worth it. He needs to realize he's on thin ice, in several categories.

Also, blaming McKid for this is friggin retarded. The HC doesn't handle contracts. Say what you want about the Cutler debacle, but this is a totally different animal.

If I'm the Broncos FO, I'm on the phone to the best available free agent WR (Jerry Porter anyone?!) and talking about a 1 year incentive laden deal. Insurance is good.


haha jerry porter.. and we wil pay him how much???? yup makes great sense

Timmy!
06-14-2009, 03:29 AM
are you guys really fans of the broncos.

FYI: You know you have a Chicago Bears jersey for an avatar, right? Just saying.....


Pot. Kettle. Black?

Timmy!
06-14-2009, 03:34 AM
haha jerry porter.. and we wil pay him how much???? yup makes great sense

If you think I want Porter over Marshall you're an idiot. Try reading the post again. IMO, he's the best available FA WR out there. He's really a poor mans Marshall. I want this Marshall thing fixed, try reading my posts in JR's Marshall might hold out thread that was posted days ago. BUT, as a die hard Bronco fan, I'd like it if my team had a backup plan. As I said, I'd offer Porter a 1 year deal. Something around 1 mil, with a low signing bonus, but several nice performance based incentives. If he doesn't take it, no loss. If he does, and Marshall walks (traded, etc etc) we look pretty smart. If the Marshall thing gets fixed (I hope!) worst case Porter doesn't make the team and we're out a tiny signing bonus. It's win-win.

Reidman
06-14-2009, 03:59 AM
You would have had to have had blinders on not to see this coming. Marshall and Cutler was like peas and carrots..figured he would head for the door behind Cutler...

Of course this is all speculation still...

Shine those shoes Royal...you're up...

sneakers
06-14-2009, 04:06 AM
We go from not reporting to minicamp to Not ever playing with the broncos again?

I know some strange stuff has gone on this offseason, but again I am too much of an optomist to think that he wont play for denver again.

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 04:36 AM
As far as efficiency goes, Brandon Marshall was targeted 181 times. He had 12 drops and 104 catches. Total, he had a 57% catch rate. You take away the drops from the targets, and there are about 65 balls that were either deflected or incomplete passes not having to do with Brandon. He's catching darn near 60% of the balls that go his way, which is quite impressive to say the least. Like T said earlier, he is going to be in a spread offense which will help maximize his value as well. He'll be able to get creative in different match-ups and have the ability to put up big numbers.

I couldn't find all Royal's numbers, but I can guarantee you Eddie will be a lot better of a receiver with Marshall on the field than without him. For obvious reasons that don't need explaining. (Double teams, mismatches, etc.)


yet jays completion rate 62.3 /63.3* for everyone but was much higher to almost every other receiver than mashall:

marshall 57.4% 4.22 YAC 60%*
royal 70.5% 3.9 YAC
scheffler 65.5 5.15 YAC
stokely 57.8% 3.41 YAC
graham 64% 6.34 YAC
jackson D 57.1% 4.58 YAC
hillis 73.7% , 10.2 YAC
jackson N 64.7% 3.45 YAC
pittman 77% 10.3 YAC
tater 71.4% 7.6 YAC

those are all of the guys that caught 10 or more passes last year..
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/broncos/

just for jollies in game one royal caught 9 for 146 yards and 2 TDs (one called back on a penalty) or 16.2 yards per catch..
and 81.2% while cutler was 64% for that day..


so not real sure if marshall helped him or hindered him in 2008.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/boxscore?game_id=29543&displayPage=tab_box_score&season=2008&week=REG1&override=true

* 2007 numbers

sneakers
06-14-2009, 05:14 AM
Hey, Chris Kuper got married yesterday!

SoCalImport
06-14-2009, 06:00 AM
yet jays completion rate 62.3 /63.3* for everyone but was much higher to almost every other receiver than mashall:

marshall 57.4% 4.22 YAC 60%*
royal 70.5% 3.9 YAC
scheffler 65.5 5.15 YAC
stokely 57.8% 3.41 YAC
graham 64% 6.34 YAC
jackson D 57.1% 4.58 YAC
hillis 73.7% , 10.2 YAC
jackson N 64.7% 3.45 YAC
pittman 77% 10.3 YAC
tater 71.4% 7.6 YAC

those are all of the guys that caught 10 or more passes last year..
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/broncos/

just for jollies in game one royal caught 9 for 146 yards and 2 TDs (one called back on a penalty) or 16.2 yards per catch..
and 81.2% while cutler was 64% for that day..


so not real sure if marshall helped him or hindered him in 2008.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/boxscore?game_id=29543&displayPage=tab_box_score&season=2008&week=REG1&override=true

* 2007 numbers

What stood out to me (when being critical) is that Marshall must have been suffering that numbness He'd mentioned in his hand, cuz he look a bit Watts-ish at times. Serious stone hands.
He and Jay got their wires crossed quite a bit too. Wrong route/ miscommunication, causing incompletion's and at least once that i remember, causing an ugly int.
Now. Some of the droppped balls could be Jay.C's rocket arm (dude didn't know what touch was) but anyone could see that B.Marsh had the opposite of soft hands last year.
YAC. and going up top for the catch. Those are marshals strong points, but He doesn't run crisp routs, he does not have great hands, and he's not the sharpest tool in the shed.

All that being said. I'd love to have Him back. This team is better with him than without, but right now there's no way He's worth top 5 wr $. To many question marks.

LRtagger
06-14-2009, 06:09 AM
He is getting paid like a 4th round draft pick with top 10 production. I completaly see where he's coming from. Now if he's asking for a big contract I can see why the FO would hesitate.

That's because he was a 4th round draft pick.

His production isn't in question. The question is, is it worth the risk considering his hip, forearm, and women problems.

Brandon should be smart enough to realize that he has brought this on himself. You take away the arrests and suspensions and I would be willing to bet he would be making top 10 money already. Until he goes a full season without his folder being placed in the suspension tray on Goodell's desk, I would be leary about giving him big money over an extended period of time as well.

Nomad
06-14-2009, 08:16 AM
Meh, win or lose im a Bronco fan. If Bmarsh gets traded than so be it. Im just a fan, if Bowlen and McD think that guys like Marsh and Cutler dont fit into their big picture thats on their heads not mine. Ive been done quite a while from getting all worked up over things i cant control. Until i see this team perform on the field i cant say this has been the worse offseason yet or not. Did i like Cutler and Marsh as players? Yep. But both have a LOT of growing up to do in different ways. Right now i dont care what happens just so as long as we win. If we tank this year than that falls on McD's shoulders. And at this point he seems like he considers himself accountable and thats all i can ask as a fan.


I agree! Same ol' story with the NFL players, it just happened to hit the BRONCOS this year. I don't believe Shanahan would have given Marshall a raise until all his problems were resolved and he could evaluate him on the field. :ohwell: it's entertaining and that's what it's all about!!

Timmy....spot on with your posts!!!

gobroncsnv
06-14-2009, 09:22 AM
[QUOTE=Jrwiz;675699]

Brady is an all pro QB. I guess I don't get your point because Orton is no Brady.

Is Cassell?




We have 1. Graham hasn't shown the ability to catch passes consistantly.

I don't think Graham has a bigger case of the dropsies than any others. Only big-time miss I saw was against Jax, 4th qtr, and was his first thrown-to of the game... Was a mistake not to involve him earlier in the game, then expect him to make a big play.


Actually Marshall and Moss are 2 different types of WR and we don't even have a defense to compare.

I'm HOPING Marshall turns out to be different than Moss... In a LOT of ways. But the Pats didn't have Moss when they won it all.

Granted, we don't have a defense to compare. Can't begin to argue with you there.

GEM
06-14-2009, 09:46 AM
This is not new news. B-Marsh is holding out. Not surprising.
It's gonna be interesting to see what Pat ultimately does. He met with Marshal, and made a decision. If he put the ball in Marshals court and B.Marsh wants to sit out. So be it.

Sit him on the bench, don't entertain offers, let BMarsh be BMarsh and wait for the next suspension.

broncfn90
06-14-2009, 10:00 AM
I cant believe this is how far we fallen..... 4 months ago the only thing we needed to do is fix the defense... now we need to fix a shit load of holes and some holes are bigger then others... Mcdumbass, XFails and Pat never ran the team it was all shanny... you suck and i want you out of this franchise and stop destroying the team i loved now i cant even look at them... and if your not out... and i know this sounds bad.... enjoy the ride without me I will just become a fan of the game

GEM
06-14-2009, 10:01 AM
some dumb SOBS.. so the same fans that are happy cutler is gone are the same ones that say good riddance to marshall... are you guys really fans of the broncos or fans of mcdaniels the qb coach from NE that thinks hes billicheck?? marshall... the kid caught over 100 balls the past 2 years.. pay the kid dammmm... wtf is going on... i kind of hope we get killed early and fast this coming up season because the faster we get rid of mcdaniels the better...

We were here last year weren't we? We weren't fans of New England. So take the questioning of my fanhood and shove it.

Yea pay the damn kid. Then watch all hell break lose when we find out he still has no feeling in his hand. And when he beats up the fiance again and gets knocked out for 8 games that we're still forced to pay him for. Just give him whatever he wants no matter what it does to the Broncos in the long run...which leads to the question....Are you a real Broncos fan or just a player fan?

underrated29
06-14-2009, 10:01 AM
I find it hard to believe that are 70 WR that are making more than 2.2 a year also.. sometimes numbers are not all they are made out to be..



yep got pro bowl fever.. like poorti$$$, a$$$hley, jay, javon did.. they were suffering from egotism, money depe$$$ion..




JR- you posted the article inwhich it stated that 70 WR will make more money than him next year....You posted it--sometime last week i believe. I cant remember which- i think it was Denver Post. Or maybe it was DNC?

One of you posted that article and thats what it said.

BroncoJoe
06-14-2009, 10:02 AM
... Mcdumbass, XFails and Pat never ran the team it was all shanny...

9-7, 7-9, 8-8.

I'm ready for a change.

GEM
06-14-2009, 10:06 AM
I cant believe this is how far we fallen..... 4 months ago the only thing we needed to do is fix the defense... now we need to fix a shit load of holes and some holes are bigger then others... Mcdumbass, XFails and Pat never ran the team it was all shanny... you suck and i want you out of this franchise and stop destroying the team i loved now i cant even look at them... and if your not out... and i know this sounds bad.... enjoy the ride without me I will just become a fan of the game

So if they poorly this season, will you be back on as a Broncos fan when they get better or just when those guys are gone? :confused:

broncfn90
06-14-2009, 10:06 AM
9-7, 7-9, 8-8.

I'm ready for a change.

not saying i want shanny back just saying pat never ran the team thats all.... just clearing the air

broncfn90
06-14-2009, 10:10 AM
So if they poorly this season, will you be back on as a Broncos fan when they get better or just when those guys are gone? :confused:

well i hate jumping on and off banwagons so i made my choice if brandon is gone i just cant look at my team with a grin no more so i will take a step back.... however if we do good (doubtful i mean look at this team hahaha) I will post a thread saying im sorry im a dip shit i will eat my crow... but i cant get back on the wagon cuz i made my bed... get it

GEM
06-14-2009, 10:16 AM
I guess I just see it differently. There's no wagon, I'm on this journey no matter where it leads or the holes in the road. I'm a Broncos fan period. There's no jumping off. Not watching the Broncos on a Sunday would devastate me. If we lose, if effing sucks and usually it makes the rest of my week suck. But there's no feeling comparison to the Sundays we win. Give me a Broncos win and I'll give you the happiest girl in the world.

Just give it a chance buddy....we may not like the makeup right now, but we haven't seen the product on the field. Let's see how that goes before jumping off anything. ;)

broncfn90
06-14-2009, 10:19 AM
I guess I just see it differently. There's no wagon, I'm on this journey no matter where it leads or the holes in the road. I'm a Broncos fan period. There's no jumping off. Not watching the Broncos on a Sunday would devastate me. If we lose, if effing sucks and usually it makes the rest of my week suck. But there's no feeling comparison to the Sundays we win. Give me a Broncos win and I'll give you the happiest girl in the world.

Just give it a chance buddy....we may not like the makeup right now, but we haven't seen the product on the field. Let's see how that goes before jumping off anything. ;)

same here i cant image me not watching the broncos on a Sunday when they are playing... hell when i had to work on Sundays i would run to the computer to see what the score was.... but as you can see i am a very un happy fan right now.... ya i will watch i mean seriously who else am i going to watch.... but sadly i wont be expecting much

Northman
06-14-2009, 10:22 AM
We were here last year weren't we? We weren't fans of New England. So take the questioning of my fanhood and shove it.

Yea pay the damn kid. Then watch all hell break lose when we find out he still has no feeling in his hand. And when he beats up the fiance again and gets knocked out for 8 games that we're still forced to pay him for. Just give him whatever he wants no matter what it does to the Broncos in the long run...which leads to the question....Are you a real Broncos fan or just a player fan?

Yea. I have no problem with Denver paying Marshall. But you have to be smart about it. At this point he has done a lot to get more than he is getting at this moment. However, because of the issues he still has it would have to be a incentive laden deal. You just cant pay this guy a crapload of money and then all of a sudden have another Brian Griese on your hands. You just cant do it at this point in time. Yes, give him more money but dont give up the farm without some escape clauses in there.

broncogirl7
06-14-2009, 10:34 AM
I don't like how Marshall conducts his private life, but come on....can we stop getting rid of all of our "good" players for crying out loud!!!????!!!!

BroncoJoe
06-14-2009, 10:45 AM
not saying i want shanny back just saying pat never ran the team thats all.... just clearing the air

Gotcha. I'm just saying that with Cutler, we haven't had a winning record. BMarsh is potentially a great player, but is also one slip-up away from being suspended. Take that along with his hand and hip, I'm not so sure I'd be rushing to my checkbook to pay him.

This team needed some drastic changes to move in another direction - mainly forward. I'm anxious to see them on the field. For better or worse.

Northman
06-14-2009, 10:46 AM
I don't like how Marshall conducts his private life, but come on....can we stop getting rid of all of our "good" players for crying out loud!!!????!!!!

Well, lets be fair. In the past when good players were here they wanted to stay and wanted to work things out even if it meant re-structuring their contracts. Now, im not saying that Marshall isnt trying to do that but it became very clear that Jay wanted no part of working anything out when all was said and done. So its a two way street when trying to keep players here.

GEM
06-14-2009, 10:49 AM
same here i cant image me not watching the broncos on a Sunday when they are playing... hell when i had to work on Sundays i would run to the computer to see what the score was.... but as you can see i am a very un happy fan right now.... ya i will watch i mean seriously who else am i going to watch.... but sadly i wont be expecting much

Then there won't be a let down. You'll either be pleasantly surprised or you won't be like Holy crap, what is going on.

Working on Sunday is sac-relig and any boss who forces that should be forced to the whipping post!! My boss knows not to even call me on Broncos Sundays. He tried it once. :lol:

GEM
06-14-2009, 10:52 AM
Well, lets be fair. In the past when good players were here they wanted to stay and wanted to work things out even if it meant re-structuring their contracts. Now, im not saying that Marshall isnt trying to do that but it became very clear that Jay wanted no part of working anything out when all was said and done. So its a two way street when trying to keep players here.

Because of FA and other things, players have no loyalty to a team. They really shouldn't either. It's the monster this industry has created. In most cases, it doesn't matter how long you have played for a team...if the team no longer needs your service, you go elsewhere. Look at Weigmann. If you are winning with a team, and another offers more money, you go there. It's not the old NFL where guys played on Sunday and went to work their 9-5 the rest of the week. Careers are short and if they don't have advertising or the shoe deals, you have to get the most amount of money in the 12-20 years that is your career expectancy.

Northman
06-14-2009, 11:15 AM
Because of FA and other things, players have no loyalty to a team. They really shouldn't either. It's the monster this industry has created. In most cases, it doesn't matter how long you have played for a team...if the team no longer needs your service, you go elsewhere. Look at Weigmann. If you are winning with a team, and another offers more money, you go there. It's not the old NFL where guys played on Sunday and went to work their 9-5 the rest of the week. Careers are short and if they don't have advertising or the shoe deals, you have to get the most amount of money in the 12-20 years that is your career expectancy.


Yea and no, depending on the person. The Mannings and Bradys could of moved on as im sure they would of gotten better offers elsewhere but they like the stability of being in one spot. But then you have the mercenaries like Owens and Moss who follow the money. Its a pretty widespread mixture of both depending on the players themselves.

broncohead
06-14-2009, 11:15 AM
[QUOTE=broncohead;675706]

Is Cassell?


I guess time will tell. It also helps having guys like Welker and Moss who are both better then Royal and Marshall at this time.


I don't think Graham has a bigger case of the dropsies than any others. Only big-time miss I saw was against Jax, 4th qtr, and was his first thrown-to of the game... Was a mistake not to involve him earlier in the game, then expect him to make a big play.

I think his problem is he is to slow. He can't get open man to man.


I'm HOPING Marshall turns out to be different than Moss... In a LOT of ways. But the Pats didn't have Moss when they won it all.

No they didn't but they had a defense that didn't allow 30+ points a game.

broncfn90
06-14-2009, 11:34 AM
Then there won't be a let down. You'll either be pleasantly surprised or you won't be like Holy crap, what is going on.

Working on Sunday is sac-relig and any boss who forces that should be forced to the whipping post!! My boss knows not to even call me on Broncos Sundays. He tried it once. :lol:

they did good not putting me on sundays till the week we played the jets i work at home depot by the way and i am 19 going to college so don't worry im not planning to make it my career.... goot thing is i am good at my job so when i ask for sundays off this upcoming season i hope the give it to me.... in fact i even asked for some of the games off or what time i can come in that day hahaha

Bad Intentions
06-14-2009, 11:41 AM
they did good not putting me on sundays till the week we played the jets i work at home depot by the way and i am 19 going to college so don't worry im not planning to make it my career.... goot thing is i am good at my job so when i ask for sundays off this upcoming season i hope the give it to me.... in fact i even asked for some of the games off or what time i can come in that day hahaha

What does one do to be good at his job... at home depot? Just curious. What department do you work in? Here in Castle Rock at another hardware/homeware store, I have a guy that I look for no matter what. He is "Good" at his job, but it's more b/c he knows about everything in this area. What plants/trees will grow well. What the soil needs for a particular species to thrive. What time of year to look for the good deals, etc.

Tned
06-14-2009, 12:02 PM
no those were all YAC and percentage of catches made.. go ahead and pick your own players I just grabbed a few of them.. I did not cheery pick them..

as far as do I think marshall is better than Royal I do not know in this system and not sure what royals numbers would have been last year.. but is is clear to me that last year he was a much more efficient WR than BM was..


get off the mike jay hate thingy am I glad they are gone yes only because we should be a better TEAM with out them..

I think they were superb at what they did best OC and passer .. but as a Gm and decision maker respectively I will not miss them at all..

night I have early church in the morning..

Jr, you brought up Jay, as a means to tear down BM, which ties into your ABM mindset. I'll stop bringing up the Mike/Jay hate when I stop reading it.

NameUsedBefore
06-14-2009, 12:04 PM
Day 2.

dogfish
06-14-2009, 12:43 PM
Team concept is great, no doubt you want to have all the cancers out of the locker room, but the world is not perfect. A team full of "team players" is great but will only go so far. You do have to have talent to win. Stoke is not an every down player, then all you have is Royal and Gaff, with a rookie, and Sceff. Now the running game looks to play a bigger part but this is still an offense that will run mainly from shotgun and count on YAC, and what does Brandon do?

I know we all hope that they can work things out. But at some point the team has to realize that they can not just get rid of everyone that is not happy go lucky.

fielding a team of 22 rudy ruttigers is a great story-- it's also a great way to win about three games a year. . . .



Why wouldn't Brandon have the same value in this scheme? He'll be consistently split out and put in various receiving positions, giving versatility to his game and the ability to go against different defenses from several slots. The only reason Marshall won't get the same production on the field this year is the fact that he won't be getting thrown the ball over 180 times; he still has a lot to offer in the offense.

get it right-- only TEAM PLAYERS can successfully run five yard drags and digs. . . .don't worry, though-- i hear a trade of marshall for reche caldwell is already in the works. . . .

Tned
06-14-2009, 12:45 PM
yet jays completion rate 62.3 /63.3* for everyone but was much higher to almost every other receiver than mashall:

marshall 57.4% 4.22 YAC 60%*
royal 70.5% 3.9 YAC
scheffler 65.5 5.15 YAC
stokely 57.8% 3.41 YAC
graham 64% 6.34 YAC
jackson D 57.1% 4.58 YAC
hillis 73.7% , 10.2 YAC
jackson N 64.7% 3.45 YAC
pittman 77% 10.3 YAC
tater 71.4% 7.6 YAC

those are all of the guys that caught 10 or more passes last year..
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2008/broncos/

just for jollies in game one royal caught 9 for 146 yards and 2 TDs (one called back on a penalty) or 16.2 yards per catch..
and 81.2% while cutler was 64% for that day..


so not real sure if marshall helped him or hindered him in 2008.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/boxscore?game_id=29543&displayPage=tab_box_score&season=2008&week=REG1&override=true

* 2007 numbers

I know you didn't get to watch all the games last year, and at times just read recaps and followed the games via the threads, so it is understandable that you draw inaccurate conclusions.

Brandon Marshall went up against the best DB on each team he faced, and was typically double teamed. When Cutler threw to a single teamed Royal on a comeback, there was a much greater chance of a completion than when throwing a jump ball to a double or triple covered Marshall.

There are some things that stats just don't tell you. Anybody watching the Broncos games the last two years knows that Marshall is hands down the best receiver on the team and one of the best in the league.

broncogirl7
06-14-2009, 12:54 PM
Amen Tned Amen. We need to pay him more money, what...is he getting like 4th round wages? It's time to pay him what he's worth and stop causing all this freaking off-season drama. I am really tired of it.

D1g1tal j1m
06-14-2009, 01:05 PM
He deserves an extension for playing in pain and still putting up the numbers. He is a big target that will help Orton and this offense. We need playmakers to put around Orton or this offense will sputter.

broncophan
06-14-2009, 01:18 PM
Wow..............remember the days when there were no "problems".....and bronco players just kept their mouths shut and played football??.....we never heard of players whining about this or that......beating up their wives or girl friends.......drunk driving.......etc.....those days seem to be long gone...

broncohead
06-14-2009, 01:50 PM
Wow..............remember the days when there were no "problems".....and bronco players just kept their mouths shut and played football??.....we never heard of players whining about this or that......beating up their wives or girl friends.......drunk driving.......etc.....those days seem to be long gone...

That's media for you

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 02:10 PM
I know you didn't get to watch all the games last year, and at times just read recaps and followed the games via the threads, so it is understandable that you draw innacurate conclusions.

Brandon Marshall went up against the best DB on each team he faced, and was typically double teamed. When Cutler through to a single teamed Royal on a comeback, there is a much greater chance of a completion than when throwing a jump ball to a double or triple covered Marshall.

There are some things that stats just don't tell you. Anybody watching the Broncos games the last two years knows that Marshall is hands down the best receiver on the team and one of the best in the league.


your correct about not seeing all the games on live time TV or having it n DVR to analyze.. but just because BM drew the best DB or couple of DB's is just the reason to throw it to the OPEN man.. instead of chancing it being defensed. Take the almost sure reception instead of throwing it to the guy that has IIRC the second most drops in the league and not forcing into double and in some cases triple coverage..

while I did not see all of the games I do remember seeing in the ones I did and hearing about jay ignoring the open guy that would have moved the sticks instead of forcing the ball to a covered marshall..

yes marshall was the best WR on the team.. But perhaps had jay either been coached to get better or not ignored the coaches perhaps his completion percentage would have been a few points better, the open man would have forced the defense to pay attention to them an maybe even open BM open more..

It is a game of strategy and if the D knows BM is going to see 30% of the passes to him who are you going to double.. while leaving someone else WIDE open..

I'm sorry it seems simple to me to not lock the radar on to one man only and force the D to play everyone going out for the pass.. I also have to wonder had we not started to throw the bubble screens almost exclusively in the later few games how much lower BM % would have been..

I also remember seeing and hearing about how many time jay forced the ball and the DB had it in his hands and dropped it..


I guess once the thrill of the game day wears off and you analyze the film and look at stats I have to wonder IF mike noticed these things that almost every objective fan saw.. I also wonder if something was said to jay or if so did he ignore them because he was on his way to the pro bowl..

it all boils down to 2007 when jay was not playing well while having diabetes and no one paying attention losing all the weight and we were clueless, now ask yourself in 2008 did we know BM was another watts or was he hiding that GEM until after the season hoping it would get better in the off season..

lots of thing seem to have been swept under the rug the past couple of years with the promise of play offs made with trying to get to them because " once in the play offs anything can happen"..

now is Josh any better we do not know, but perhaps him and his staff has figured some of this out and is not going to take it any more.. perhaps he is not going to jump through the players hoops like we seem to have been doing the past few years..


time will tell how we do.. I'm thinking we will be a much better TEAM but perhaps not have a winning season this year.. I think alot of stupid mistakes will NOT be done this coming year but mistakes will happen none the less. they just will not be stupid.. and they will be corrected on the spot..

If we get beat by a Superior team I can live with that getting beat up or losing BIG at home is not allowed..

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 02:13 PM
Wow..............remember the days when there were no "problems".....and bronco players just kept their mouths shut and played football??.....we never heard of players whining about this or that......beating up their wives or girl friends.......drunk driving.......etc.....those days seem to be long gone...


That's media for you

and What does the media have to do with drunk driving, spouse abuse are they forcing that bad behavior now or just reporting it..

Nature Boy
06-14-2009, 02:17 PM
9-7, 7-9, 8-8.

I'm ready for a change.

Wait til McDummass and his 4-12 or lesser 2009 season. Then again another dismal season in 2010 and see how fast McDummass is run out of town and see how fast fans will turn on Pat for his questionable moves started with firing Mike Shanahan.

Mikey is probably sipping a mai-tai as we speak laughing at Pat.

.

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 02:18 PM
He deserves an extension for playing in pain and still putting up the numbers. He is a big target that will help Orton and this offense. We need playmakers to put around Orton or this offense will sputter.


I do not think anyone has said he does not deserve a raise no one has said he is not worth more money.. I believe everyone thinks he is a huge risk, with hand, hip, fiancé, girlfriend, Goodell, mental attitude, partying, immaturity and the court system all heading the list of questions we need to have answered before giving into him.

broncohead
06-14-2009, 02:26 PM
and What does the media have to do with drunk driving, spouse abuse are they forcing that bad behavior now or just reporting it..

The media is more into the personal lives of the star players. Thats what makes them the money. Rod and Irvan where 2 players that had some issues. The contracts have become a bigger issue now though. Players are looking at it like a business just like the teams.

broncohead
06-14-2009, 02:33 PM
your correct about not seeing all the games on live time TV or having it n DVR to analyze.. but just because BM drew the best DB or couple of DB's is just the reason to throw it to the OPEN man.. instead of chancing it being defensed. Take the almost sure reception instead of throwing it to the guy that has IIRC the second most drops in the league and not forcing into double and in some cases triple coverage..

while I did not see all of the games I do remember seeing in the ones I did and hearing about jay ignoring the open guy that would have moved the sticks instead of forcing the ball to a covered marshall..

yes marshall was the best WR on the team.. But perhaps had jay either been coached to get better or not ignored the coaches perhaps his completion percentage would have been a few points better, the open man would have forced the defense to pay attention to them an maybe even open BM open more..

It is a game of strategy and if the D knows BM is going to see 30% of the passes to him who are you going to double.. while leaving someone else WIDE open..

I'm sorry it seems simple to me to not lock the radar on to one man only and force the D to play everyone going out for the pass.. I also have to wonder had we not started to throw the bubble screens almost exclusively in the later few games how much lower BM % would have been..

I also remember seeing and hearing about how many time jay forced the ball and the DB had it in his hands and dropped it..


I guess once the thrill of the game day wears off and you analyze the film and look at stats I have to wonder IF mike noticed these things that almost every objective fan saw.. I also wonder if something was said to jay or if so did he ignore them because he was on his way to the pro bowl..

it all boils down to 2007 when jay was not playing well while having diabetes and no one paying attention losing all the weight and we were clueless, now ask yourself in 2008 did we know BM was another watts or was he hiding that GEM until after the season hoping it would get better in the off season..

lots of thing seem to have been swept under the rug the past couple of years with the promise of play offs made with trying to get to them because " once in the play offs anything can happen"..

now is Josh any better we do not know, but perhaps him and his staff has figured some of this out and is not going to take it any more.. perhaps he is not going to jump through the players hoops like we seem to have been doing the past few years..


time will tell how we do.. I'm thinking we will be a much better TEAM but perhaps not have a winning season this year.. I think alot of stupid mistakes will NOT be done this coming year but mistakes will happen none the less. they just will not be stupid.. and they will be corrected on the spot..

If we get beat by a Superior team I can live with that getting beat up or losing BIG at home is not allowed..

This seemed like a Jay post. What about Brandon?

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 02:50 PM
This seemed like a Jay post. What about Brandon?

he was the one that jay was making the passes to..

For what reason I do not know and was trying to get folks to think about that..

why numbers of 104 passes caught are not the only thing to look at.. when evaluating whether to resign him or not..


perhaps I did not make that clear

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 03:05 PM
: "I think he should try and talk to me. I think there’s some information that he needs that I have.

http://twitter.com/denverbroncos/statuses/2168027160

broncohead
06-14-2009, 03:32 PM
: "I think he should try and talk to me. I think there’s some information that he needs that I have.

http://twitter.com/denverbroncos/statuses/2168027160

I think that would be a good idea. Even though every player has their list of priorities maybe Smith can help Marshall see how much this system can help him.

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 03:41 PM
I think that would be a good idea. Even though every player has their list of priorities maybe Smith can help Marshall see how much this system can help him.

while he was active on the team and mentoring BM he was staying out of trouble.. but since the pro bowl and talking with the other mega stars out there then wondering why is was getting paid what he was his agent had an in.

as I said in another post we need to keep him in a cage where he can't get into trouble and only allow him out to attend meetings and on game day..

Maybe some of the broncos should be forced to join up with morns anonymous.. until they grow up..

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 03:47 PM
another rehash of the debacle



by Mike Klis The Denver Post , The Denver Post

Wearing a dark T-shirt and dark athletic shorts, Broncos receiver Brandon Marshall walked into Dove Valley headquarters Friday afternoon for a private meeting with team owner Pat Bowlen.

Marshall walked out a little more than an hour later carrying packed boxes to his car before driving away from the players' parking lot without comment, leaving behind this dark possibility: Has he caught his last pass for the Broncos ?
Anything must be considered possible in an offseason in which the Broncos have already said goodbye to star quarterback Jay Cutler. Only this time, don't blame new Broncos coach Josh McDaniels if Cutler's former favorite receiver follows him through the exit doors.

While rehabilitating from hip surgery, Marshall doesn't want to be treated by the Broncos' medical staff if the team won't give him a new contract. Marshall sent that message both through his absence from the start of the Broncos' mandatory minicamp Friday morning and presumably during his audience with Bowlen on Friday afternoon.

Bowlen could not be reached for comment. Marshall likely will be fined for each day he does not report to the three-day camp that ends Sunday.

"We'll do what the league rules allow us to do for a player that has missed a mandatory activity," McDaniels said. "The rest of that is really internal. I've spoken to him and his agent, and that's a decision that he's made."

The Broncos went through a similar ordeal earlier this offseason with Cutler. Cutler's dispute was not about money but with McDaniels. Soon after replacing Mike Shanahan as the Broncos' head coach, McDaniels considered a trade that would have made former New England quarterback Matt Cassel the new offensive leader in Denver.

Cutler was eventually traded, along with a fifth-round pick, to the Chicago Bears in exchange for quarterback Kyle Orton, two first-round picks and a third-round pick.

Marshall's beef is primarily about his contract. Because he wasn't selected until the fourth round in the 2006 draft, Marshall was essentially slotted into a contract that paid him a relatively modest $1.5 million in combined salary and signing bonus through his first three seasons.

Thanks to a Pro Bowl incentive in that contract, Marshall's fourth-year salary for 2009 did escalate to $2.198 million. However, Marshall believes he is getting paid fourth-round money for a player who has delivered the production of a top-10 overall draft pick. He has averaged 103 catches, 1,295 yards and 6 1/2 touchdowns the past two seasons.

Based on an NFL salary database compiled by USA Today last season, 58 receivers made more than $2.2 million last season. (I see klis is reading this forum as I brought this number forward yesterday) perhaps he has just started to do his own homework instead of just rehashing other reporters..


Marshall also has cited a lack of trust in the team's medical care as a reason for not wanting to rehab at team headquarters. Before failing to report for the mandatory offseason practice session Friday, Marshall had skipped the previous three weeks of "voluntary" workouts because he wanted to rehab under the care of his personal physicians in Orlando, Fla.

"Of course, we'd love to have him here," said Chris Simms, who is competing with Orton for the Broncos' starting quarterback job. "He's very talented, and he's going to make our team better and he's a good guy. We love having him around. But at the same time, it's the NFL, it's a business. There's a lot of things that go into decisions like this, so you've got to respect his decision and we'll continue to work here."

The Broncos have not yet indicated a willingness to make a long-term investment in Marshall. The team might want to first see how he recovers from his hip surgery. Marshall also has been involved in numerous off-field legal issues - enough to where one more infraction could leave him vulnerable to a long-term suspension under the league's personal conduct policy.

Marshall is not expected to report today or Sunday, which would make training camp in late July the next step in his protest. A Broncos player has not held out from training camp since receiver Ashley Lelie in 2006. Lelie eventually was traded to San Francisco, a move that helped clear playing time for a rookie named Brandon Marshall.

"It's something we're going to handle and take care of it in-house," McDaniels said. "I've been through a number of these situations. Whether it does or doesn't get fixed, that's something that's going to play out in the future. But we're going to coach the guys that are here the best we can. When he's ready to go and we get him out here, we'll get him out here."


http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9680986/WR's-future-murky-Marshall-misses-workout,-leaves-complex-after-talk-with-owner-

broncohead
06-14-2009, 03:52 PM
58 isn't much better imo.

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 04:00 PM
58 isn't much better imo.


so all he has to do is show he is worth the risk/chance he is asking the team to take.. if he was squeaky clean like say Eddie Mac was then it would have happened already.. but he is not..

or to sign a contract where he has to earn those numbers,, with systematic pay outs of bonuses and lots of incentives built in if he is as good as YOU think he is then it should not be an issue.. If he is worried about being injured while he is earning his money then by all means let his agent purchase a insurance policy on him out his own money..

I would think that is acceptable to Xman and Pat.. and or Josh he gets a potentially great WR to play with..


all he has done till now is:

caught 57% of the passes thrown to him.. (lower avg than the rest of the team)
almost lead the league in dropped passes..
been in jail more than the rest of the team in total.
been to league headquarters more than everyone but Travis henry and PAC man
..

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 04:06 PM
why numbers of 104 passes caught are not the only thing to look at.. when evaluating whether to resign him or not..

perhaps I did not make that clear

You didn't. Marshall catching 102 and 104 passes respectively over the past two years is an amazing feat. If you are going to talk about Jay forcing balls, throwing into double coverage and not the open man, that can't be held against Marshall statistically for any reason. If Jay didn't have a penchant for luke-warm decision making, the caught passes to target ratio would have been much better for Marshall. As stated earlier, Marshall is a guy commanding double teams, and almost always a safety or linebacker rolled in coverage towards his general direction.

With that stated, it is obvious that other players are going to have a higher catch percentage and success ratio than Brandon. Either way, catching 90% of the balls that hit him in the hands, especially after his injury is pretty remarkable and a near 60% success average per target is even moreso considering the defensive rolls and emphasis put on him while he is on the field.

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 04:14 PM
And for your information, Brandon's catch percentage in the 58-60% range seems to be on par with most of the top receivers (or #1's) in the NFL. The receivers who have the highest catch percentages are usually the teams second or slot option receivers. Actually, the highest catch percentages for any player usually come from the running backs. That stuff, along with many other things can be found in detail here (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=&type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=055). Compare Brandon's catch percentages and other categories to the top receivers in the league. He is doing an incredible job -- all of which with a bum hip and coming off the arm injury. Very impressive.

Tned
06-14-2009, 04:43 PM
your correct about not seeing all the games on live time TV or having it n DVR to analyze.. but just because BM drew the best DB or couple of DB's is just the reason to throw it to the OPEN man.. instead of chancing it being defensed. Take the almost sure reception instead of throwing it to the guy that has IIRC the second most drops in the league and not forcing into double and in some cases triple coverage..

while I did not see all of the games I do remember seeing in the ones I did and hearing about jay ignoring the open guy that would have moved the sticks instead of forcing the ball to a covered marshall..

yes marshall was the best WR on the team.. But perhaps had jay either been coached to get better or not ignored the coaches perhaps his completion percentage would have been a few points better, the open man would have forced the defense to pay attention to them an maybe even open BM open more..

It is a game of strategy and if the D knows BM is going to see 30% of the passes to him who are you going to double.. while leaving someone else WIDE open..

I'm sorry it seems simple to me to not lock the radar on to one man only and force the D to play everyone going out for the pass.. I also have to wonder had we not started to throw the bubble screens almost exclusively in the later few games how much lower BM % would have been..

I also remember seeing and hearing about how many time jay forced the ball and the DB had it in his hands and dropped it..


I guess once the thrill of the game day wears off and you analyze the film and look at stats I have to wonder IF mike noticed these things that almost every objective fan saw.. I also wonder if something was said to jay or if so did he ignore them because he was on his way to the pro bowl..

it all boils down to 2007 when jay was not playing well while having diabetes and no one paying attention losing all the weight and we were clueless, now ask yourself in 2008 did we know BM was another watts or was he hiding that GEM until after the season hoping it would get better in the off season..

lots of thing seem to have been swept under the rug the past couple of years with the promise of play offs made with trying to get to them because " once in the play offs anything can happen"..

now is Josh any better we do not know, but perhaps him and his staff has figured some of this out and is not going to take it any more.. perhaps he is not going to jump through the players hoops like we seem to have been doing the past few years..


time will tell how we do.. I'm thinking we will be a much better TEAM but perhaps not have a winning season this year.. I think alot of stupid mistakes will NOT be done this coming year but mistakes will happen none the less. they just will not be stupid.. and they will be corrected on the spot..

If we get beat by a Superior team I can live with that getting beat up or losing BIG at home is not allowed..

And once again you managed to bring it back around to slamming Mikey and Jay. Didn't you just tell me your issues with Marshall weren't about your ABM position? :confused:

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 04:58 PM
And once again you managed to bring it back around to slamming Mikey and Jay. Didn't you just tell me your issues with Marshall weren't about your ABM position? :confused:


and if your not able to understand they are intertwined then I can't help you..

If Jay is not coached to make better decisions that IT hurts the team and perhaps BM would have been that much better IF jay were to throw the ball to open receivers when BM was double covered..

IF he had doing that more often BM would not be double and triple covered all the time..

sorry I can't make that clearer..

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 05:07 PM
Jay's decision making and ball forcing has no bearing on whether or not Marshall will have coveraged rolled in his direction.

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 05:11 PM
And for your information, Brandon's catch percentage in the 58-60% range seems to be on par with most of the top receivers (or #1's) in the NFL. The receivers who have the highest catch percentages are usually the teams second or slot option receivers. Actually, the highest catch percentages for any player usually come from the running backs. That stuff, along with many other things can be found in detail here (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=&type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=055). Compare Brandon's catch percentages and other categories to the top receivers in the league. He is doing an incredible job -- all of which with a bum hip and coming off the arm injury. Very impressive.



sorry but I do not see BM on the chart at all because it stops at 72% and BM is at 57.4% not 58-60% and BTW Stokely is one of the best slot receivers in the league..

I did note that NE had TWO receivers on that list.. at 78% and 74.5% respectively..

I did however note when you just looked at AFC players Eddie 70.5 is on that one and it does not show BM 57% either because stops at 67.2 for the top 20 WR in the AFC..

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=AFC&type=Receiving&rank=055&year=

would not have been on the NFC side either as it ends at 66.9% almost 10 points about BM's..


but, but, wait, here he is:

#2 on the passes not caught list.. 77 with 77 only Braylon worse

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=107&year=

Tned
06-14-2009, 05:16 PM
and if your not able to understand they are intertwined then I can't help you..

If Jay is not coached to make better decisions that IT hurts the team and perhaps BM would have been that much better IF jay were to throw the ball to open receivers when BM was double covered..

IF he had doing that more often BM would not be double and triple covered all the time..

sorry I can't make that clearer..

Your bias is very clear, it doesn't need to be any clearer, I just don't like to be told not to point it out, when time after time your posts comes back to slamming Jay and Shanahan (neither of who are even Broncos anymore).

Anyway, back to the topic of the thread (ironically, not Jay or Mike), the QB's decision making last year has nothing to do with Marshall's value as a receiver.

Brandon Marshall is one of the handful of receivers in the league that 'cannot' be covered one-on-one by a DB. You don't piss those away, when you have one. Are there off field issues? Certainly. Should that come into play with a negotiation. Certainly. However, Marshall is the kind of receiver you want locked up for the next 4 to 5 years, rather than forcing him to stay on the team until he is a FA and then lose him in the open market.

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 05:31 PM
sorry but I do not see BM on the chart at all because it stops at 72% and BM is at 57.4% not 58-60% and BTW Stokely is one of the best slot receivers in the league.

Right, because that list was mostly of running backs and very few receivers were on it. (Only 8 for AFC.) There is a reason why running backs have high catch rates. Your job was to compare #1 receivers in the league (by clicking on their names) and seeing their catch percentages and comparing it to his. I have, and he actually does quite well.


I did however note when you just looked at AFC players Eddie 70.5 is on that one and it does not show BM 57% either because stops at 67.2 for the top 20 WR in the AFC..

The list includes RB, FB, TE, etc. Duh.


would not have been on the NFC side either as it ends at 66.9% almost 10 points about BM's..

I'm sure you understand why Marshall's catch rate is lower given your ranting about Jay. Put 2 and 2 together.



but, but, wait, here he is:

#2 on the passes not caught list.. 77 with 77 only Braylon worse

Great job on cherry-picking statistics again. What is your point? Marshall caught 104 balls. Dropped 12. 104/116out of balls that hit him in the hands. 65 misses based on interceptions, pass deflections, overthrows, etc. Everything else not related to Marshall, besides the probable miscommunication in route running. Still don't see why you continue to hold his catch rate against him when it is indeed very good for someone who is a #1 receiver and is more indicative of the Broncos forcing and throwing the ball more than usual.

Want to know where else Brandon is on that list?


#7 in Total Receiving Yards
#3 in Total Catches
#12T in Yards After Catch
#18T in Catches Over 25 Yards
#4 in Receptions for First Downs
#7T in Catches Inside Opp. 20


Looks absolutely fabulous to me all things considered -- and that was what, with him missing a game or two? Can't remember.

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 05:38 PM
Your bias is very clear, it doesn't need to be any clearer, I just don't like to be told not to point it out, when time after time your posts comes back to slamming Jay and Shanahan (neither of who are even Broncos anymore).

Anyway, back to the topic of the thread (ironically, not Jay or Mike), the QB's decision making last year has nothing to do with Marshall's value as a receiver.

Brandon Marshall is one of the handful of receivers in the league that 'cannot' be covered one-on-one by a DB. You don't piss those away, when you have one. Are there off field issues? Certainly. Should that come into play with a negotiation. Certainly. However, Marshall is the kind of receiver you want locked up for the next 4 to 5 years, rather than forcing him to stay on the team until he is a FA and then lose him in the open market.


I disagree with you on the decision making aspect.. if he were not forced the balls to him perhaps he would have had a better percentage and other first downs may have been made.. is that BM fault we will never know if anything was said by him to jay or to jay by mike..

If it was BM pleading for the ball then do we need someone like that on the team.. OR do we need team players that sacrifice for the rest of the team that even though they know they re not going to get the ball will run the route like they were to open up other players..

Eddie caught only 11 balls less than marshall did his YAC was 3.94 vs 4.34 and he had one less TD for 32% less passes thrown his way..70.5% caught vs 57.4 caught..

sorry, BUT I do not see the huge need to pander to someone that has no maturity is constantly in trouble, is one step away from going to jail if not being suspended, has two serious health issues still not resolved and drops only less passes than other ONE guy in the NFL..

BTW one more stat I find interesting

AFC Leaders: %First Downs/Passing Target (Thru Dec. 28, 2008)
Scheffler 45.9% 28/61
Stokely 41.2% 35/85
Graham 40.0 20/50

BM is not on that list..
http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=AFC&type=Receiving&rank=060&year=


was looking for fumbles but could not find a chart to see where he would have ranked as a WR....

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 05:39 PM
How many balls do you think each receiver in the league would drop if they were tossed it 181 times?

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 05:42 PM
Right, because that list was mostly of running backs and very few receivers were on it. (Only 8 for AFC.) There is a reason why running backs have high catch rates. Your job was to compare #1 receivers in the league (by clicking on their names) and seeing their catch percentages and comparing it to his. I have, and he actually does quite well.



The list includes RB, FB, TE, etc. Duh.



I'm sure you understand why Marshall's catch rate is lower given your ranting about Jay. Put 2 and 2 together.




Great job on cherry-picking statistics again. What is your point? Marshall caught 104 balls. Dropped 12. 104/116out of balls that hit him in the hands. 65 misses based on interceptions, pass deflections, overthrows, etc. Everything else not related to Marshall, besides the probable miscommunication in route running. Still don't see why you continue to hold his catch rate against him when it is indeed very good for someone who is a #1 receiver and is more indicative of the Broncos forcing and throwing the ball more than usual.

Want to know where else Brandon is on that list?


#7 in Total Receiving Yards
#3 in Total Catches
#12T in Yards After Catch
#18T in Catches Over 25 Yards
#4 in Receptions for First Downs
#7T in Catches Inside Opp. 20


Looks absolutely fabulous to me all things considered -- and that was what, with him missing a game or two? Can't remember.



you said receivers that is what I looked at and for what it worth he will not be that good in 2009 when the QB is throwing to open receivers.. so most of that is moot..


look I'm glad you love BM but until he comes back that is moot also..

and even then he may be so far behind the rest of the pack it might be detrimental put him on the field..

I suspect that is what Josh is thinking right now and I also bet the phones are ringing asking what they want for him..

so IMO he is no longer a Bronco and I hope they get alot of value for him..

Tned
06-14-2009, 05:44 PM
I disagree with you on the decision making aspect.. if he were not forced the balls to him perhaps he would have had a better percentage and other first downs may have been made.. is that BM fault we will never know if anything was said by him to jay or to jay by mike..

If it was BM pleading for the ball then do we need someone like that on the team.. OR do we need team players that sacrifice for the rest of the team that even though they know they re not going to get the ball will run the route like they were to open up other players..

Eddie caught only 11 balls less than marshall did his YAC was 3.94 vs 4.34 and he had one less TD for 32% less passes thrown his way..70.5% caught vs 57.4 caught..

sorry, BUT I do not see the huge need to pander to someone that has no maturity is constantly in trouble, is one step away from going to jail if not being suspended, has two serious health issues still not resolved and drops only less passes than other ONE guy in the NFL..

BTW one more stat I find interesting

AFC Leaders: %First Downs/Passing Target (Thru Dec. 28, 2008)
Scheffler 45.9% 28/61
Stokely 41.2% 35/85
Graham 40.0 20/50

BM is not on that list..
http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=AFC&type=Receiving&rank=060&year=


was looking for fumbles but could not find a chart to see where he would have ranked as a WR....

Sorry, I got lost in the Jay/Mike tangent again.

Straight question. No garbage stats that mean anything for your answer.

Do you honestly believe that the team is better with Royal as the number one receiver, going up against the number one DB (plus double and triple teams) of every team we play, then the team is when Marshall is going up against the number one DB and getting the double and triple teams?

Your position is that Royal is the better receiver to play against the opposing team's best defenders. Correct?

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 05:48 PM
Sorry, I got lost in the Jay/Mike tangent again.

Straight question. No garbage stats that mean anything for your answer.

Do you honestly believe that the team is better with Royal as the number one receiver, going up against the number one DB (plus double and triple teams) of every team we play, then the team is when Marshall is going up against the number one DB and getting the double and triple teams?

Your position is that Royal is the better receiver to play against the opposing team's best defenders. Correct?


as it stands it does not matter what I think.

What matters is him dissing his coaches and teammates by not attending everything they are.. I'm also sure they told him this during their meeting after which he packed boxes and went home..

I'm sure this point has not been lost on Josh, Xman nor Pat..

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 05:48 PM
you said receivers that is what I looked at and for what it worth he will not be that good in 2009 when the QB is throwing to open receivers.. so most of that is moot..

Don't even know what you are saying here. The list I linked to includes anyone who had over a certain amount of targets as a receiver. Well, as you know tight ends, fullbacks and running backs can also be considered receivers. The Top 20 in the AFC/NFC are a list of all players who had a certain amount of targets a game to qualify. It wasn't just receivers.

And, what the ****? Marshall won't put up the stats this year because our QB will be throwing to open receivers? What kind of argument is that? Marshall won't put up the same numbers this year as last because he won't be thrown the ball 181 times.


look I'm glad you love BM but until he comes back that is moot also..

No, not really moot.


and even then he may be so far behind the rest of the pack it might be detrimental put him on the field..

No, probably not. But whatever helps the Strawman.


I suspect that is what Josh is thinking right now and I also bet the phones are ringing asking what they want for him..

Don't really care what you suspect Josh is thinking or if there are teams calling Denver to see if Marshall is available.


so IMO he is no longer a Bronco and I hope they get alot of value for him..

Well, he still is a Bronco -- and I hope they get a lot of value out of him too. On the field.

Oh, and you keep bringing up Marshall's drops. How many drops do you think other receivers would have if they were tossed 181 balls? You haven't answered yet.

Tned
06-14-2009, 05:56 PM
as it stands it does not matter what I think.



You say it doesn't matter, but you are attempting to paint a picture with your warped stats that show that Marshall is a below average, at best, receiver. Hence my question.

Do you honestly believe the team is better with Royal as the number one WR than Marshall at number one?

You can't have it both ways. You can't tear the player, along with Jay and Mike, down, but then at the same time refuse to state that you feel the team is better off with Royal as the number one receiver than Marshall at number one.

BroncoTech
06-14-2009, 06:11 PM
I do like Eddy at #1 and have since early last year. I like his work ethic and his ability to produce highly while keeping drama very low.

http://broncotalk.net/2008/10/brandon-marshall-wants-to-be-a-career-bronco/
Brandon Marshall from October 08

“This is where I want to end my career. I want to play for Coach (Mike) Shanahan and the Denver Broncos throughout my career. I’m happy where I’m at.”

Marshall's all over the board, but he's bound by a contract and there's no reason for the FO to cave in on it. Play out the deal you signed and there's a lot of good things can happen to you. Hold out and there's some things that aren't good for you so negoiate your contract before signing, not after.

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 06:29 PM
You say it doesn't matter, but you are attempting to paint a picture with your warped stats that show that Marshall is a below average, at best, receiver. Hence my question.

Do you honestly believe the team is better with Royal as the number one WR than Marshall at number one?

You can't have it both ways. You can't tear the player, along with Jay and Mike, down, but then at the same time refuse to state that you feel the team is better off with Royal as the number one receiver than Marshall at number one.

In the up coming scheme I do not know that we need marshall as much as last years scheme did..

if he is unable to get open he is not going to get the ball if someone else is OPEN. right now the other WR are working hard to make sure they know what they are supposed to know and getting their timing down NOW with Orton..

By the time, IF, he shows back up to camp not having a clue on what the scheme is it may be a detriment to give him playing time..

Yes it would be nice to see him in it, but I think the die is cast..

my stats are just that stats how they can be warped I do not know, they point out that perhaps he is not the best person for the job that others are more effecient and do not have the baggage he does..

and yes, what I think does not matter, because I am not the decision maker here nor is dream..

roomemp
06-14-2009, 06:30 PM
The dude is making $ million plus this year. He has already gotten a HUGE raise. Especially for someone who still has legal issues outstanding. I love Marshall as a Bronco. But saying that. I guess when Shanny left, both Marshall and Cutler lost the guy who must of held there hands since they became pros. I say don't cave in to the Marshall camp.

Tned
06-14-2009, 06:42 PM
In the up coming scheme I do not know that we need marshall as much as last years scheme did..

if he is unable to get open he is not going to get the ball if someone else is OPEN. right now the other WR are working hard to make sure they know what they are supposed to know and getting their timing down NOW with Orton..

By the time, IF, he shows back up to camp not having a clue on what the scheme is it may be a detriment to give him playing time..

Yes it would be nice to see him in it, but I think the die is cast..

my stats are just that stats how they can be warped I do not know, they point out that perhaps he is not the best person for the job that others are more effecient and do not have the baggage he does..

and yes, what I think does not matter, because I am not the decision maker here nor is dream..

Ok, I opened a gash over my right eye slamming my head against the wall in this act of utter futility.

While I try and see what I can do with super glue and steri strips for my eye, I'll just agree to disagree on what your stats 'show'.

Denver Native (Carol)
06-14-2009, 06:47 PM
Ok, I opened a gash over my right eye slamming my head against the wall in this act of utter futility.

While I try and see what I can do with super glue and steri strips for my eye, I'll just agree to disagree on what your stats 'show'.

You mean like this :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: :D

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 08:28 PM
my stats are just that stats how they can be warped I do not know, they point out that perhaps he is not the best person for the job that others are more effecient and do not have the baggage he does.

You cherry-pick the statistics to try and prove the point that Marshall is some worthless piece of shit not worthy of wearing an NFL jersey. You bring up his 77 balls he didn't miss, but openly neglect the fact that he had a 90% catch rate of the balls hitting him between the numbers. 104/116.

Marshall cannot be held responsible for Jay throwing the ball into double coverage, forcing it into tight spirals and the other instances that cause incompletions such as batted down passes at the L.O.S. and pass deflections. Any receiver who has 181 balls thrown at him is not going to have a stunning overall catch percentage. Especially one who demands as much attention as Marshall does. The fact that Marshall's over the past two years is near 60% is absolutely astonishing given his targets.

Overall, Marshall's catch rate (balls catchable) is 90%; which is extremely effective. Compare that to Tony, who over 119 less balls thrown his way than Marshall and he had five drops; which is good enough for a 91% catch rate. Keep in mind, Brandon was playing with numbness in his hands too; so that'd probably impact his ability to catch the ball.

The more targets you get, the lower your overall catch rate is going to be as a #1 wide receiver. The statistics across the board show that the #1's in the NFL getting over the century mark in targets are averaging in that 55-60% range overall for catchables. Marshall is right on in there.

Marshall has some negatives, we all know this -- but come on. To say all Marshall has done are negative things (which is what was presented above in a post) is beyond naive. Not only did Marshall rank highly in the categories I posted, but here is some other stuff to chew on.


He's the only player in NFL history to catch 10 balls in four out of five games.

Has the most catches over a five game span in the history of the NFL with 55.

Second most catches ever in an NFL game with 18.

One of only 9 players in the history of the NFL to have back-to-back 100 reception seasons.

One of only three second year players to have 100 receptions.


Doing the things he has done on the field, it is understandable he wants a new contract. I do not blame him one bit for going away from Dove Valley and seeking help elsewhere when several MRI's did not reveal the damage to his hip that one trip to a specialist in his area did. The Broncos trouble over the past decade when it comes to recognizing injuries and treating them has been outlined in detail.

On the other hand, his troubles off the field make it very understandable why the Broncos Brass may be hesitant to give him one. However, being short-sighted and purposely erroneous in arguments is dishonest. There are far more to the statistics you are using against Marshall than meets the eye.

Receivers who demand double if not triple coverage with a rolled 'backer are obviously going to help open things up for others. I have a feeling if you asked Brandon, Eddie or Tony if Marshall being on the field helps open things up for them by getting one-on-one match-ups -- they would tell you yes. In short, Marshall's prowess on the field allows for others around him to be better. That's not a bad thing either, it has happened for a long time.

Cris Carter made Jake Reed better. Irving Fryar helped open up things all over the field for the multiple teams he played for. Michael Irvin for Alvin Harper. The list goes on, but those are just some of the greats I remember in my short time watching football.

I'm not necessarily happy with how Marshall is conducting himself, but the Broncos are a better team with him on the field. Easily. Lets all hope he might take some of Smith's advice, perhaps his long-time mentor Carter and a few others and get ready to be there for camp in July. We need him.

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 08:39 PM
You cherry-pick the statistics to try and prove the point that Marshall is some worthless piece of shit not worthy of wearing an NFL jersey. You bring up his 77 balls he didn't miss, but openly neglect the fact that he had a 90% catch rate of the balls hitting him between the numbers. 104/116.

Marshall cannot be held responsible for Jay throwing the ball into double coverage, forcing it into tight spirals and the other instances that cause incompletions such as batted down passes at the L.O.S. and pass deflections. Any receiver who has 181 balls thrown at him is not going to have a stunning overall catch percentage. Especially one who demands as much attention as Marshall does. The fact that Marshall's over the past two years is near 60% is absolutely astonishing given his targets.

Overall, Marshall's catch rate (balls catchable) is 90%; which is extremely effective. Compare that to Tony, who over 119 less balls thrown his way than Marshall and he had five drops; which is good enough for a 91% catch rate. Keep in mind, Brandon was playing with numbness in his hands too; so that'd probably impact his ability to catch the ball.

The more targets you get, the lower your overall catch rate is going to be as a #1 wide receiver. The statistics across the board show that the #1's in the NFL getting over the century mark in targets are averaging in that 55-60% range overall for catchables. Marshall is right on in there.

Marshall has some negatives, we all know this -- but come on. To say all Marshall has done are negative things (which is what was presented above in a post) is beyond naive. Not only did Marshall rank highly in the categories I posted, but here is some other stuff to chew on.


He's the only player in NFL history to catch 10 balls in four out of five games.

Has the most catches over a five game span in the history of the NFL with 55.

Second most catches ever in an NFL game with 18.

One of only 9 players in the history of the NFL to have back-to-back 100 reception seasons.

One of only three second year players to have 100 receptions.


Doing the things he has done on the field, it is understandable he wants a new contract. I do not blame him one bit for going away from Dove Valley and seeking help elsewhere when several MRI's did not reveal the damage to his hip that one trip to a specialist in his area did. The Broncos trouble over the past decade when it comes to recognizing injuries and treating them has been outlined in detail.

On the other hand, his troubles off the field make it very understandable why the Broncos Brass may be hesitant to give him one. However, being short-sighted and purposely erroneous in arguments is dishonest. There are far more to the statistics you are using against Marshall than meets the eye.

Receivers who demand double if not triple coverage with a rolled 'backer are obviously going to help open things up for others. I have a feeling if you asked Brandon, Eddie or Tony if Marshall being on the field helps open things up for them by getting one-on-one match-ups -- they would tell you yes. In short, Marshall's prowess on the field allows for others around him to be better. That's not a bad thing either, it has happened for a long time.

Cris Carter made Jake Reed better. Irving Fryar helped open up things all over the field for the multiple teams he played for. Michael Irvin for Alvin Harper. The list goes on, but those are just some of the greats I remember in my short time watching football.

I'm not necessarily happy with how Marshall is conducting himself, but the Broncos are a better team with him on the field. Easily. Lets all hope he might take some of Smith's advice, perhaps his long-time mentor Carter and a few others and get ready to be there for camp in July. We need him.



Other than this "I'm not necessarily happy with how Marshall is conducting himself",:salute: the rest is a waste of my time..

blah, blah, blah, blah, more ranting and raving about how wonderful the guy was.. I hear he is not married yet, you should give him a call.. or maybe even tweet him:laugh::laugh::laugh:

atwater27
06-14-2009, 08:49 PM
You cherry-pick the statistics to try and prove the point that Marshall is some worthless piece of shit not worthy of wearing an NFL jersey. You bring up his 77 balls he didn't miss, but openly neglect the fact that he had a 90% catch rate of the balls hitting him between the numbers. 104/116.

Marshall cannot be held responsible for Jay throwing the ball into double coverage, forcing it into tight spirals and the other instances that cause incompletions such as batted down passes at the L.O.S. and pass deflections. Any receiver who has 181 balls thrown at him is not going to have a stunning overall catch percentage. Especially one who demands as much attention as Marshall does. The fact that Marshall's over the past two years is near 60% is absolutely astonishing given his targets.

Overall, Marshall's catch rate (balls catchable) is 90%; which is extremely effective. Compare that to Tony, who over 119 less balls thrown his way than Marshall and he had five drops; which is good enough for a 91% catch rate. Keep in mind, Brandon was playing with numbness in his hands too; so that'd probably impact his ability to catch the ball.

The more targets you get, the lower your overall catch rate is going to be as a #1 wide receiver. The statistics across the board show that the #1's in the NFL getting over the century mark in targets are averaging in that 55-60% range overall for catchables. Marshall is right on in there.

Marshall has some negatives, we all know this -- but come on. To say all Marshall has done are negative things (which is what was presented above in a post) is beyond naive. Not only did Marshall rank highly in the categories I posted, but here is some other stuff to chew on.


He's the only player in NFL history to catch 10 balls in four out of five games.

Has the most catches over a five game span in the history of the NFL with 55.

Second most catches ever in an NFL game with 18.

One of only 9 players in the history of the NFL to have back-to-back 100 reception seasons.

One of only three second year players to have 100 receptions.


Doing the things he has done on the field, it is understandable he wants a new contract. I do not blame him one bit for going away from Dove Valley and seeking help elsewhere when several MRI's did not reveal the damage to his hip that one trip to a specialist in his area did. The Broncos trouble over the past decade when it comes to recognizing injuries and treating them has been outlined in detail.

On the other hand, his troubles off the field make it very understandable why the Broncos Brass may be hesitant to give him one. However, being short-sighted and purposely erroneous in arguments is dishonest. There are far more to the statistics you are using against Marshall than meets the eye.

Receivers who demand double if not triple coverage with a rolled 'backer are obviously going to help open things up for others. I have a feeling if you asked Brandon, Eddie or Tony if Marshall being on the field helps open things up for them by getting one-on-one match-ups -- they would tell you yes. In short, Marshall's prowess on the field allows for others around him to be better. That's not a bad thing either, it has happened for a long time.

Cris Carter made Jake Reed better. Irving Fryar helped open up things all over the field for the multiple teams he played for. Michael Irvin for Alvin Harper. The list goes on, but those are just some of the greats I remember in my short time watching football.

I'm not necessarily happy with how Marshall is conducting himself, but the Broncos are a better team with him on the field. Easily. Lets all hope he might take some of Smith's advice, perhaps his long-time mentor Carter and a few others and get ready to be there for camp in July. We need him.

Trade the bitch.

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 08:49 PM
Of course it is a waste of your time. You'd have a hard time refuting anything I said -- but I'm really dying to hear more ass backwards logic on Marshall. Oh, and I should call Brandon. It has been a while since I've talked to him. Maybe I'll e-mail him some of your posts over Facebook that call him a moron and all that jazz. It might get him amped up again. I hear he has a short-temper and a nasty left hook. You can have a McDonald's bag prepared at your house so it is an even match. Fair is fair.

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 08:50 PM
Trade the bitch.

Good idea, while we are at it -- we can call up Triandos Luke and see how he is doing these days. I think he and Orton could be a tenacious duo.

BroncoWave
06-14-2009, 08:51 PM
Good idea, while we are at it -- we can call up Triandos Luke and see how he is doing these days. I think he and Orton could be a tenacious duo.

I think it's time to bring Darius Watts back. Dude was a beast!

atwater27
06-14-2009, 08:54 PM
Good idea, while we are at it -- we can call up Triandos Luke and see how he is doing these days. I think he and Orton could be a tenacious duo.

Better idea. Let's replace Marshall with another great character wide receiver... Rae Caruth.

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 08:55 PM
I think it's time to bring Darius Watts back. Dude was a beast!

Oh man, a class of 2004 reunion! Lets get back Brandon Miree too and cut Knowshon while we are at it. Come to think of it, Herb Haygood and Adrian Madise might make good insurance policies as well. How about Travis McGriff? Former third round pick who sucked balls in the NFL; but tore up the arena league circuit. Can you say redemption?

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 08:57 PM
Better idea. Let's replace Marshall with another great character wide receiver... Rae Caruth.

We will have to wait until 2018 to get Rae. I've been waiting a while for him. Hopefully Ray Lewis will be playing then too. I'm starting to think that a recipe for success nine years from now will be two killers on the field. Good thinking.

atwater27
06-14-2009, 08:59 PM
We will have to wait until 2018 to get Rae. I've been waiting a while for him. Hopefully Ray Lewis will be playing then too. I'm starting to think that a recipe for success nine years from now will be two killers on the field. Good thinking.

Marshall could only wish he was Rae Caruth. But he's on the right track.

Lonestar
06-14-2009, 09:00 PM
I think it's time to bring Darius Watts back. Dude was a beast!


actually he was a great route runner and made some decent catches but after everyone found out he had limited use of his hand they simple stripped the ball or knocked it away rendering him useless.. I remember here all the cries that he should replace ashley after a great preseason. then the article on his hand came out and his career was done..


Hmmmmm I wonder if BM has read those and now has doubts about his feeling ever being the same in his injured arm.. might be the big push on getting a new contract NOW.. before everyone figures it out..:confused:

NameUsedBefore
06-14-2009, 09:01 PM
Triandos Luke anyone?

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 09:01 PM
Marshall could only wish he was Rae Caruth. But he's on the right track.

He is just going to have to beat those hos a little harder to ascend to Rae's pinnacle.

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 09:02 PM
Triandos Luke anyone?

Late to the party as usual. I covered almost every Broncos receiver besides Kevin Kasper. I left him out because he was white.

BroncoWave
06-14-2009, 09:04 PM
Late to the party as usual. I covered almost every Broncos receiver besides Kevin Kasper. I left him out because he was white.
Don't forget Chris Cole.

atwater27
06-14-2009, 09:04 PM
Late to the party as usual. I covered almost every Broncos receiver besides Kevin Kasper. I left him out because he was white.

Is he whiter than you? That would be a feat.

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 09:06 PM
Don't forget Chris Cole.

He actually did pretty well as a returner for us in 2001. Last time I heard about him he was playing up north in Canada. Oh, Chris Cole. Why did you fail us?

Requiem / The Dagda
06-14-2009, 09:07 PM
Is he whiter than you? That would be a feat.

Yes, Casper is whiter than me. He is the friendly ghost.

NameUsedBefore
06-14-2009, 09:16 PM
Luke had like 96 speed in ESPN 2k5. I won a game on a last-play 75 yard hail mary with him online w00t. He holds a special place in my heart.

dogfish
06-14-2009, 09:23 PM
Good idea, while we are at it -- we can call up Triandos Luke and see how he is doing these days. I think he and Orton could be a tenacious duo.


i hear nate swift and lucas taylor are both tremendous character guys. . . gotta love those UDFAs-- they may not be very good at football in most cases, but them bitches know their place! when you aren't very good, there's little chance you're gonna get uppity about dollars. . . . i bet they study the playbook real hard, too. . . .

Tned
06-14-2009, 10:37 PM
Other than this "I'm not necessarily happy with how Marshall is conducting himself",:salute: the rest is a waste of my time..

blah, blah, blah, blah, more ranting and raving about how wonderful the guy was.. I hear he is not married yet, you should give him a call.. or maybe even tweet him:laugh::laugh::laugh:

You might want go back and review your own Clintonesque spin in this thread, before criticizing someone else's posts that point out the 'reality' of the Marshall situation.

MOtorboat
06-14-2009, 10:59 PM
I just shot myself in the head. No kidding. It's like I never existed. :rolleyes:

Elevation inc
06-15-2009, 12:59 AM
actually he was a great route runner and made some decent catches but after everyone found out he had limited use of his hand they simple stripped the ball or knocked it away rendering him useless.. I remember here all the cries that he should replace ashley after a great preseason. then the article on his hand came out and his career was done..


Hmmmmm I wonder if BM has read those and now has doubts about his feeling ever being the same in his injured arm.. might be the big push on getting a new contract NOW.. before everyone figures it out..:confused:


come on bro you know better than that, marshall with that injured hand caught 104 passes last year, feeling or no feeling he can still catch pretty damn good. he earned a new contract

but his current unorthodox contract push is more likely because he is pissed at the medical staff, and he wants insurance for his hip more than his arm injury

Lonestar
06-15-2009, 01:39 AM
come on bro you know better than that, marshall with that injured hand caught 104 passes last year, feeling or no feeling he can still catch pretty damn good. he earned a new contract

but his current unorthodox contract push is more likely because he is pissed at the medical staff, and he wants insurance for his hip more than his arm injury


hey he did not have great year when it counted down the stretch and perhaps that is because the book on him is he does indeed have an issue with his hand.. maybe it was his hip and his hand..

but now is not the time for taking a stand on a new contract.. I do not think anyone will disagree with that comment..if they do is is because they are homer blind.. or wish to be secretly engaged to brandon..:laugh:

Elevation inc
06-15-2009, 01:59 AM
hey he did not have great year when it counted down the stretch and perhaps that is because the book on him is he does indeed have an issue with his hand.. maybe it was his hip and his hand..

but now is not the time for taking a stand on a new contract.. I do not think anyone will disagree with that comment..if they do is is because they are homer blind.. or wish to be secretly engaged to brandon..:laugh:


your right he is going about his contract in the wrong way now, but his performance last year down the stretch was becasue defenses were double and triple teaming him, Jay was locked in on him constantly, and his hip was quite a bother to him. he caught 104 passes and still avg over 7 passes per game down the stretch. there are lots of factors why he wasnt the same last year, none of which in my opinion were directly related to his hand outside of the potential for causing some a couple of his drops.

just my take....

Lonestar
06-15-2009, 02:07 AM
your right he is going about his contract in the wrong way now, but his performance last year down the stretch was becasue defenses were double and triple teaming him, Jay was locked in on him constantly, and his hip was quite a bother to him. he caught 104 passes and still avg over 7 passes per game down the stretch. there are lots of factors why he wasnt the same last year, none of which in my opinion were directly related to his hand outside of the potential for causing some a couple of his drops.

just my take....


something is wrong unless he is just a head case for him to take this stance.. I can not believe his agent would advise him to do this in this manner.. even though they are money grubbing lawyers..

Unless there is either a plan to make him so unloved in the FO like Jay did he has zero ammo to fire.. all of the cards are on DEN side..

I said up front this was all about money now while I still believe it sis money there has to be something else driving it.. and I think now it is injury and he wants a new contract before they find out..

or he is a head case.. Y'all chose..

Elevation inc
06-15-2009, 03:15 AM
something is wrong unless he is just a head case for him to take this stance.. I can not believe his agent would advise him to do this in this manner.. even though they are money grubbing lawyers..

Unless there is either a plan to make him so unloved in the FO like Jay did he has zero ammo to fire.. all of the cards are on DEN side..

I said up front this was all about money now while I still believe it sis money there has to be something else driving it.. and I think now it is injury and he wants a new contract before they find out..

or he is a head case.. Y'all chose..


i think its like this he feels if he has to deal with a incompetent medical staff he should be comepensated since they got him where he is having rehab in the first place. I dont think he is seeking a long term extension just yet, but more like a modest pay raise, and honestly if its not outrageous, he deserves it.

His agent and marshall are probally getting side stuff from doctors like 1 more hit can end your career, and on and on, kinda like rod smiths hip issue. probally another reason rod said marshall should talk to him....

i think marshall realizes how painful it was last year, and is worried about his long term stability of playing football on it after seeing first hand that rod had to quit. its normal playing for denver next year could end his career, its a real life situation, and one he knows could be bad for his future since football is it for him.

He is smart thinking about his future right now problem is holding out just makes him look worse...

perhaps the best thing Denver could do is negotiate a 2 year extension with good salary but high stipulations and very incentive laden, the benfit to marshall would be if they give a decent signing bonus or upfront money. and let him know they will renogotiate the last year into a long term extension if he proves his injuries are good and his off-field stuff is gone

then marshall has his salary this year, plus a nice bonus to create a good nest egg in case his career gets injury derailed by no fault of his own, so he feels more confortable, and denver shows they are commited to him, but doesnt handicap themsleves for the long term future in case his injury does go bad or his off-field stuff takes a turn for the worse.

i think marshall knows he can play next year and will be healthy, but teh fear of the unknown if he gets hurt again, and 16 game grind on it, and the prospect of getting fed misinformation by the staff is whats kicking this.

his claims have merit and value but there are otehr ways to go about this....im hopeful things go the right way, MCD seems very open about this right now compared to the cutler thing and the communication seems good....


if im the denver FO i sign him to a 2 year extension with a signing bonus, make the contract very incentive laden and stiuplation induced, and i add in the wordage that we will renogiate that last year into a long term deal if he proves he has come full circle.

something like that should be reasonable for both sides. if he doesnt agree to that then he is being stupid, and if the FO doesnt feel they should do something like that, then they are also incompetent when it comes to talent in this league.

it works both ways, and both parties need to keep a level head to get this resolved so everyone in denver stays happy to include the fans

drewloc
06-15-2009, 05:00 AM
One thing that we really don't know about is how in depth the contract talks have been. It could be that it hasn't got very far in BMarsh's request, but what if they presented him with a pay raise that was incentive based that gave him the raise he was seeking? It could be that he has turned them down. Thing is, no one really knows where they are with these. Are the Broncos simply refusing to talk, or has it begun and Marshall isn't happy with what was presented? We don't really know, so until some concrete evidence comes out showing us one thing or another, I will hold off judgement.

That said, I would like to have BMarsh back, he helps the offense. It's one more guy the defense has to game plan for, and that is underrated in my opinion. Regardless of how many drops he has had, hopefully he can stay in a Broncos uni for a long time.

Denver Native (Carol)
06-15-2009, 10:16 AM
Although this article contains many things, the Marshall situation is also mentioned.

http://www.timescall.com/sports_story.asp?id=16608

Broncos evaluate progress
Marshall misses whole mini-camp


ENGLEWOOD — There’s still a lot of work to be done, but the Denver Broncos feel they’re in a good spot after finishing a three-day mini-camp Sunday at their headquarters.

“I think we’re where we should be in June,” second-year receiver Eddie Royal said. “We’re still getting used to everybody, learning the playbook. We’re getting better. I’m happy where we’re at; we still need to get better, though.”

Sunday’s practice was the last time the team will be together on the field until training camp opens in late July.

While the three-day mandatory mini-camp did not include standout receiver Brandon Marshall, who was once again a no-show on Sunday, the Broncos got a lot done, head coach Josh McDaniels said.

“I think our players understand now what our system is all about, how we’re going to work, what we’re going to expect of them on a daily basis,” McDaniels said. “I think they’ve really meshed as a team.”

Since taking over as head coach in January, McDaniels and his staff have put in countless hours re-making the roster and installing new offensive and defensive systems.

“I think the players and the coaches have worked extremely hard to try to get to where we’re at,” McDaniels said. “We still have a long way to go, but we know a heck of a lot more about the players we’re working with, they know a lot about the system and the way we’re going to try to use them. We’ve put in a lot of work.”

There is still a lot of work to be done during training camp, however. While the Broncos have had several practices together, they aren’t even close to setting a starting lineup at many positions.

“It’ll be an interesting training camp for us,” McDaniels said. “We’ve got a lot of good football players at the same positions and those guys understand their roles in terms of battling for those spots and the playing time they’re going to try to earn. We’re looking forward of the Denver Broncos football team photographed May 1, 2009to that.

“There’s a lot of battles that we couldn’t really figure out in the spring because we don’t have pads on. There’s a lot of things to be figured out, but we’re looking forward to it.”

MARSHALL UPDATE: Marshall is entering the final year of the four-year contract he signed as a rookie and reportedly wants a new deal. McDaniels remains hopeful the situation will be resolved soon so that Marshall can be on the field in training camp.

“The lines are definitely open and well see what transpires in the next couple weeks,” McDaniels said.

LEGENDARY ADVICE: Rod Smith has his name splashed all over the Broncos’ record book. Sunday, the retired receiver showed up to watch the last part of practice.

After practice, he spoke with Royal for a while.

“Any time you can learn from a legend like him, you want to take every opportunity,” Royal said. “My ears are wide open.”

Brian Howell can be reached at
bhowell@times-call.com.

weazel
06-15-2009, 10:46 AM
at least we arent paying bucket loads of money to guys like Javon Walker and Jerry Porter, how do you think Oakland and Jacksonville feel!

CoachChaz
06-15-2009, 11:01 AM
at least we arent paying bucket loads of money to guys like Javon Walker and Jerry Porter, how do you think Oakland and Jacksonville feel!

I guess I just dont want Denver to end up like that. paying tons of money to a guy with a bad hip and a potential prison sentence.

Maybe i just dont give a damn anymore...who knows

horsepig
06-15-2009, 01:27 PM
Give him some $$. He has earned a raise.

You all are absolutely correct about the incentive laden deal.

Superchop 7
06-15-2009, 08:15 PM
Wasn't BM a "company" man right after Cutler left ?

My how times have changed......

BroncoAV06
06-15-2009, 08:32 PM
JR I just don't see how you throw out your side of the debate expecting it to be the end all be all but when someone counters all you can do is "Why don't you marry him". That might have been funny as hell in 5th grade. I guess you don't like when people actually come back with legit stats against you?