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View Full Version : Spano article on Denver's Defensive Tackle situation



Jsteve01
06-01-2012, 06:51 PM
http://www.milehighsports.com/?p=10280

Brandon is obviously taking the glass half full stance.

BroncoWave
06-01-2012, 07:28 PM
Everyone who has whined about Denver not re-signing Bunkley needs to read this passage:

"The reality is that the Broncos, contrary to fan and media belief, didn’t really need Bunkley unless they were able to retain him at a good bargain. Bunkley is a traditional run stuffer that comes out often on third down. What happens on third down? Passing. What do the Broncos expect to see a lot from opposing teams this season? Passing."

NorCalBronco7
06-01-2012, 07:45 PM
Yeah I agree the writer is way too optimistic about the DT situation, but I do think the group will be solid and not as bad as a lot fans believe.

The group will probably be better suited for a 1 gap defense and the interior pass rush will better, but the run defense will still be a major question mark. Theres no way, in my mind, that the DT group dominates against the run, or is much better than last year, but thats okay because of how the Broncos want to win.

If Tebow was the Qb and putting tons of pressure on the defense, then I could see a huge issue.

Knowing thats theres going to be more push in the middle, hopefully, makes up for losing Bunkley. We'll see, but I can see what the Broncos were thinking.

Chef Zambini
06-02-2012, 02:11 AM
Most vteams are going to try to establish the RUN and keep PM on the sideline while they control the clock! isnt that what we tried to do when we faced manning?
Isnt our only time of success against a legitimate manning led colts , was when we beat them with grifith running for 170 + yards on 27 or so carries?
if our defense is too focused on stopping the PASS wont that make running the ball so much easier?

Davii
06-02-2012, 04:07 AM
Most vteams are going to try to establish the RUN and keep PM on the sideline while they control the clock! isnt that what we tried to do when we faced manning?
Isnt our only time of success against a legitimate manning led colts , was when we beat them with grifith running for 170 + yards on 27 or so carries?
if our defense is too focused on stopping the PASS wont that make running the ball so much easier?

Well, you yourself just said that we only had success against it once. Once our offense gets moving they won't have time to run anymore.

Chef Zambini
06-02-2012, 07:56 AM
Our broncos were NOT a good running team this millenium.
We therefore had a hard time beating the colts and sticking to the plan.

yes, I would hope that our offense is so phenomenal, that teams will be compelled to PASS just to keep up.
But is that realistic?
is that practical?
can we honestly tell ourselves,
"teams will have to pass to keep up'
and therefore design and condition our defense into being primarily and almost exclusively a defense designed to stop the pass and susceptable to the run?
How many SBs did the colts win in PMs 12 year career with that mentality?
dan fouts?

MOtorboat
06-02-2012, 08:00 AM
Most vteams are going to try to establish the RUN and keep PM on the sideline while they control the clock! isnt that what we tried to do when we faced manning?
Isnt our only time of success against a legitimate manning led colts , was when we beat them with grifith running for 170 + yards on 27 or so carries?
if our defense is too focused on stopping the PASS wont that make running the ball so much easier?

Zam, buddy, you're stuck in the mid-90s Shanahan offense.

Do you know how many teams that are on the Broncos schedule this year had more rushing attempts than passing attempts last year?

Chef Zambini
06-02-2012, 08:52 AM
no I do not. so teams will just try to gunsling their way to victory against us, put up more points with their own airial attack?
we should not concern ourselves with an opponents ability to run because Pm will render ANY run offense moot?
will the ravens try to run the ball?
how'bout them steelers?
cheifs/
raiders?
I guess those 6 games dont matter.

MOtorboat
06-02-2012, 08:59 AM
no I do not. so teams will just try to gunsling their way to victory against us, put up more points with their own airial attack?
we should not concern ourselves with an opponents ability to run because Pm will render ANY run offense moot?
will the ravens try to run the ball?
how'bout them steelers?
cheifs/
raiders?
I guess those 6 games dont matter.

All six of those teams pass the ball more than they run it.

The answer is one. Almost no teams run to grind clock anymore. The Texans are the only team on the schedule that did last year, and with Schaub back, I wouldn't expect them to do it either. It's a different NFL now. Denver is building their roster to defend that.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
06-02-2012, 10:13 AM
Don't worry about the depth at DT fellas. We haven't even got to the waiver wire yet, woo-hoo!

Chef Zambini
06-02-2012, 11:45 AM
All six of those teams pass the ball more than they run it.

The answer is one. Almost no teams run to grind clock anymore. The Texans are the only team on the schedule that did last year, and with Schaub back, I wouldn't expect them to do it either. It's a different NFL now. Denver is building their roster to defend that.the FOUR teams I mentioned (six games) are capapble of mounting a very competent running attack. I said nothing about their propensity to pass the ball, I just pointed out that if teams can be succesful running against us, that will be the m.O,. to keeping manning off the field.
we cant go about our buisness trying to convince ourselves that opponents wont try to run the ball.
it is an ostrich mentality for our coaches.
TEXANS, led by KUBIAK will definitly try to run the ball down our throats.

Chef Zambini
06-02-2012, 11:51 AM
after looking at our 2012 schedule, I see only the pats and possibly the bolts as teams that will try to beat us with a passing attack. all the rest have the capacity to execute a run first gameplan, especiakly if our defense demonstrates a difinitive weakness at stopping the run do to the atrophy from lack of attention and focus on the discipline.
If we are not built to stop the run, if we do not practice to stop the run, if we do not GAMEPLAN to stop the run, then teams are going to be delighted to pound the ball down our throats. and every one of our opponents has a run game capable of doing just that !
I remain concerned.

MOtorboat
06-02-2012, 12:17 PM
Personally, I'm glad our coaches and personnel guys aren't stuck in an old-school line of thinking.

Stop the pass. It's a pass first league.

Ravage!!!
06-02-2012, 12:59 PM
Most vteams are going to try to establish the RUN and keep PM on the sideline while they control the clock! isnt that what we tried to do when we faced manning?
Isnt our only time of success against a legitimate manning led colts , was when we beat them with grifith running for 170 + yards on 27 or so carries?
if our defense is too focused on stopping the PASS wont that make running the ball so much easier?


This is what they have been trying to do to Manning his entier 14 year career. Just becuase they 'try that'.. doesn't mean thats what happens. The difference between this year and last, is that our defense was not only on the field a LOT, bu tthe other team was NEVER having to feel as though it had to score to keep up. Manning actually provides offense. Teams can't continue to run the ball when a Manning is moving down the field via the pass.

We are building our defense to face the kind of offenses we will face. How do we know? Because we have 14 years of video on how teams have to play against Manning to go on. ITs not like this is something new for them. The colts built a defense that was meant to defend the pass and RUSH the passer. Were teams able to keep Manning on the sidelines with that approach when Peyton was in INdy?

bcbronc
06-02-2012, 02:15 PM
This is what they have been trying to do to Manning his entier 14 year career. Just becuase they 'try that'.. doesn't mean thats what happens. The difference between this year and last, is that our defense was not only on the field a LOT, bu tthe other team was NEVER having to feel as though it had to score to keep up. Manning actually provides offense. Teams can't continue to run the ball when a Manning is moving down the field via the pass.

We are building our defense to face the kind of offenses we will face. How do we know? Because we have 14 years of video on how teams have to play against Manning to go on. ITs not like this is something new for them. The colts built a defense that was meant to defend the pass and RUSH the passer. Were teams able to keep Manning on the sidelines with that approach when Peyton was in INdy?

Every year except 1 teams have found a way to beat Manning, so let's not pretend we don't need to have a balanced team to win games. Not perfectly balanced, okay. But if we can't keep RunDMC unde 200 yards rushing it will lower our chances of winning.

With that said, I don't agree at all that a one gap penetrating DL can't be effective vs the run. Penetration can disrupt a running game jus as well as the old immovable two-gap NT can...maybe even better. Speed can be effective vs the run against most teams, we don't need to rely solely on size and strength to stop the run.

HORSEPOWER 56
06-02-2012, 02:20 PM
Rotating players and having "specialists" vs the run and vs the pass on the DL is all well and good, but...

...wouldn't it be nice to have some guys who can actually do both? How often do players like Suh, Ngata, and Wilfork come off the field? Sure, they need snaps off occasionally, but they tend to play vs both pass and run pretty well. Our problem relying on "specialists" (guys who only play on "passing downs" or "rushing downs") is that nowadays, just about every situation is both. I distinctly remember our defense being gashed by Buffalo last year because they would spread us out and give us a pass look and then run a draw right up the gut. Then they'd line up in traditional 21 personnel (2 backs, 1 TE) and pass against our defense that was geared up to stop the run.

The bottom line is, constantly having to try to guess whether they are passing or rushing and trying to substitute the right personnel sub-package all the time is like chasing your tail. What happens when the opposing team goes no-huddle? they score 5 TDs in a half and start gashing you through the air and on the ground because you get stuck in a half-assed personnel package and they exploit it. Teams that have the talent to defend the run and pass simultaneously are the ones that are perennially successful. Until we can get to that point, other teams will find and exploit our weaknesses.

I have a lot of faith in Del Rio and Fox to make this defense better, but if the success relies on shifting Miller, Wolfe, Bannan, Vickerson, Mays, and possibly Warren and Siliga around all the time to create a pass rush or to stop the run, teams will start exploiting it. They'll figure out our packages quickly and adapt. Much like it was with Shanny and having Jeb Putzier or Tony Scheffler on the field, it was a dead giveaway we were going to pass because neither could block. Now, every time a certain player lines up at a certain spot the offense will potentially know to run or pass vs that defensive front. I hope Wolfe can develop into a solid 3 technique who can play vs both the run and pass inside. We need a pocket collapser vs the pass and a guy who can hold up and/or penetrate vs the run. If not, we'll look just like last year on defense.

MOtorboat
06-02-2012, 02:48 PM
It would be nice to have Suh or Ngata, but that player wasn't available.

NorCalBronco7
06-02-2012, 02:56 PM
Most vteams are going to try to establish the RUN and keep PM on the sideline while they control the clock! isnt that what we tried to do when we faced manning?
Isnt our only time of success against a legitimate manning led colts , was when we beat them with grifith running for 170 + yards on 27 or so carries?
if our defense is too focused on stopping the PASS wont that make running the ball so much easier?

I dont for one second believe the best strategy against high scoring NFL offenses is play keep away and control the clock. You do it by putting a lot of points on the board. Its really that simple.






Rotating players and having "specialists" vs the run and vs the pass on the DL is all well and good, but...

...wouldn't it be nice to have some guys who can actually do both? How often do players like Suh, Ngata, and Wilfork come off the field? Sure, they need snaps off occasionally, but they tend to play vs both pass and run pretty well. Our problem relying on "specialists" (guys who only play on "passing downs" or "rushing downs") is that nowadays, just about every situation is both. I distinctly remember our defense being gashed by Buffalo last year because they would spread us out and give us a pass look and then run a draw right up the gut. Then they'd line up in traditional 21 personnel (2 backs, 1 TE) and pass against our defense that was geared up to stop the run.

The bottom line is, constantly having to try to guess whether they are passing or rushing and trying to substitute the right personnel sub-package all the time is like chasing your tail. What happens when the opposing team goes no-huddle? they score 5 TDs in a half and start gashing you through the air and on the ground because you get stuck in a half-assed personnel package and they exploit it. Teams that have the talent to defend the run and pass simultaneously are the ones that are perennially successful. Until we can get to that point, other teams will find and exploit our weaknesses.

I have a lot of faith in Del Rio and Fox to make this defense better, but if the success relies on shifting Miller, Wolfe, Bannan, Vickerson, Mays, and possibly Warren and Siliga around all the time to create a pass rush or to stop the run, teams will start exploiting it. They'll figure out our packages quickly and adapt. Much like it was with Shanny and having Jeb Putzier or Tony Scheffler on the field, it was a dead giveaway we were going to pass because neither could block. Now, every time a certain player lines up at a certain spot the offense will potentially know to run or pass vs that defensive front. I hope Wolfe can develop into a solid 3 technique who can play vs both the run and pass inside. We need a pocket collapser vs the pass and a guy who can hold up and/or penetrate vs the run. If not, we'll look just like last year on defense.

Im with you on a lot of this.

My belief is that as long as the Broncos are playing in thin air, constant rotations are just going to be a part of the dline.

As far as defensive tendencies, subsituting role players in a common tactic nowadays. Its exploitalble, but its a natural reaction to how lopsided the passing game is.

Cugel
06-05-2012, 03:27 PM
I have a lot of faith in Del Rio and Fox to make this defense better, but if the success relies on shifting Miller, Wolfe, Bannan, Vickerson, Mays, and possibly Warren and Siliga around all the time to create a pass rush or to stop the run, teams will start exploiting it. They'll figure out our packages quickly and adapt. Much like it was with Shanny and having Jeb Putzier or Tony Scheffler on the field, it was a dead giveaway we were going to pass because neither could block. Now, every time a certain player lines up at a certain spot the offense will potentially know to run or pass vs that defensive front. I hope Wolfe can develop into a solid 3 technique who can play vs both the run and pass inside. We need a pocket collapser vs the pass and a guy who can hold up and/or penetrate vs the run. If not, we'll look just like last year on defense.

Their idea is to clog the middle with NTs Bannan or Vickerson and penetrate upfield with Warren & Wolfe. Whether that works is another matter, but that's the plan.

In his first season Wolfe is not going to be starting. He's going to come in as a DT on third down pass rush packages. Otherwise he's going to play outside at DE. At least to start the season.

Del Rio is confident they can get more out of Bannan, Warren or Thomas, and Vickerson than the rest of us. Personally, looking at that lineup makes me unhappy.

I think they're all semi-worthless scrubs. And all the talk from Del Rio about Wolfe being another Marcus Stroud is just talk right now.

But, Del Rio thinks "we'll be alright."

For one thing, teams are not going to be running all day against Peyton Manning. If they do they're going to lose a lot of games 28-17 or something. If Manning can score and get a lead that's going to force teams to pass more.

And the Broncos are a decent team against the pass. The strength of this defense now is rushing the passer with Doom & Miller and defending the pass with Bailey, Porter, Mike Adams and Drayton Florence. So, everything does work together.

Now seeing that on the field in October is another matter, but as of right now the defensive plan makes perfect sense.

DenBronx
06-05-2012, 05:38 PM
Yeah ok this article has changed my mind that we needed Bunkley.......................................NOT.

dogfish
06-05-2012, 06:45 PM
It would be nice to have Suh or Ngata, but that player wasn't available.

i'll remember that the next time you start bitching about the nuggets not having kevin durant. . .


:welcome:

MOtorboat
06-05-2012, 09:03 PM
i'll remember that the next time you start bitching about the nuggets not having kevin durant. . .


:welcome:

The difference is the Nuggets HAD Ngata...

slim
06-05-2012, 09:15 PM
It would be nice to have Suh or Ngata, but that player wasn't available.

Actually, Ngata was available in 2006 :listen:

dogfish
06-05-2012, 10:52 PM
The difference is the Nuggets HAD Ngata...

who, mr. always loses in the first round? you mean the guy that forced his way out of town?

bcbronc
06-05-2012, 10:58 PM
Basketball's kinda lame.

TXBRONC
06-06-2012, 10:01 AM
The difference is the Nuggets HAD Ngata...

The Nuggets had a 330 lbs small forward? :shocked:

MOtorboat
06-06-2012, 10:22 AM
The Nuggets had a 330 lbs small forward? :shocked:

Big Baby Davis?

TXBRONC
06-06-2012, 12:02 PM
Big Baby Davis?

So he's a 330 lbs small forward?

broncofaninfla
06-07-2012, 11:53 AM
With Warren back in the fold I'm feeling better about our DT's.....it's been YEARS since I've been able to say that. Time will tell how they perform but it's nice to have some hope about the postion when in years past I just shook my head in disgust.

Chef Zambini
06-07-2012, 12:18 PM
so you all admit that the broncos are building a defense focused on stopping the PASS.
I continue to harp on the notion that we will be in trouble if they instead focus on the RUN !
how many SBs has PM won in his career?
pass happy offesnse do NOT justify pass happy defenses.
see the EAGLES of just last year for details.

MOtorboat
06-07-2012, 12:47 PM
so you all admit that the broncos are building a defense focused on stopping the PASS.
I continue to harp on the notion that we will be in trouble if they instead focus on the RUN !
how many SBs has PM won in his career?
pass happy offesnse do NOT justify pass happy defenses.
see the EAGLES of just last year for details.

I don't really know who you are addressing directly, but yeah, they are developing a defense specifically designed to stop the pass. No one is denying it.

They, however, have not done anything like what the Eagles did last year.

TXBRONC
06-08-2012, 10:01 AM
With Warren back in the fold I'm feeling better about our DT's.....it's been YEARS since I've been able to say that. Time will tell how they perform but it's nice to have some hope about the postion when in years past I just shook my head in disgust.

I felt that way last year and then Warrn ended up missing the entire season. I think we're in better shape at defensive tackle if Warren can stay healthy that's a very big if. That's assuming he has something left in the tank if remain health. I down on our defensive tackle situation but more of "lets see what happens" kind of mode.

Chef Zambini
06-08-2012, 03:22 PM
I don't really know who you are addressing directly, but yeah, they are developing a defense specifically designed to stop the pass. No one is denying it.

They, however, have not done anything like what the Eagles did last year.the eagles turned their defense over to a guy who was ill equiped to lead it .

OL coach becomes DC,
see titanic for appropriate comparisons.
In that respect our broncos are NOTHING like last years eagles, however...
they did spend their entire off season and check book, bringing in guys to stop the pass! pass rushers and corners.
the NFL ran the ball down their throats and they looked like fools!
If we dont put more emphasis NOW on run defense, you all will be hearing more comparisons to last years eagles from people other than me.
especially the foolish part !

MOtorboat
06-08-2012, 04:55 PM
the eagles turned their defense over to a guy who was ill equiped to lead it .

OL coach becomes DC,
see titanic for appropriate comparisons.
In that respect our broncos are NOTHING like last years eagles, however...
they did spend their entire off season and check book, bringing in guys to stop the pass! pass rushers and corners.
the NFL ran the ball down their throats and they looked like fools!
If we dont put more emphasis NOW on run defense, you all will be hearing more comparisons to last years eagles from people other than me.
especially the foolish part !

They were 16th against the run. Not exactly what I would say "getting it shoved down their throats" bad.

Chef Zambini
06-08-2012, 05:17 PM
They were 16th against the run. Not exactly what I would say "getting it shoved down their throats" bad.I heard 22nd against the run?
are you sure that is not 16th overall?

Chef Zambini
06-08-2012, 05:24 PM
13

New York Jets

16

22.7

363

451

28.2

1,777

3.9

111.1

17

70T

83

18.4

11

1

10



14

Green Bay Packers

16

22.4

359

383

23.9

1,789

4.7

111.8

10

54T

96

25.1

9

2

6



15

Seattle Seahawks

16

19.7

315

473

29.6

1,797

3.8

112.3

10

39

96

20.3

8

0

4



16

Philadelphia Eagles

16

20.5

328

414

25.9

1,801

4.4

112.6

11

61

84

20.3

11

4

5



17

New England Patriots

16

21.4

342

405

25.3

1,874

4.6

117.1

13

41

101

24.9

10

1

10



18

Washington Redskins

16

22.9

367

438

27.4

1,884

4.3

117.8

15

67

95

21.7

14

3

5



19

New York Giants

16

25

400

435

27.2

1,940

4.5

121.2

15

80T

103

23.7

11

3

10



20

San Diego Chargers

16

23.6

377

448

28.0

1,955

4.4

122.2

8

46

102

22.8

15

2

3



21

Arizona Cardinals

16

21.8

348

475

29.7

1,986

4.2

124.1

15

48T

118

24.8

11

1

3



22

Denver Broncos

16

24.4

390

488

30.5

2,021

4.1

126.3

11

47

101

20.7

14

1

5



23

Detroit Lions

16

24.2

387

410

25.6

2,050

5.0

128.1

10

65T

91

22.2

16

6

5



24

Tennessee Titans

16

19.8

317

461

28.8

2,053

4.5

128.3

10

80T

111

24.1

15

3

9



25

Carolina Panthers

16

26.8

429

451

28.2

2,093

4.6

130.8

18

46

110

24.4

15

4

10



26

Kansas City Chiefs

16

21.1

338

508

31.8

2,112

4.2

132.0

14

35

96

18.9

10

0

8



27

Oakland Raiders

16

27.1

433

430

26.9

2,178

5.1

136.1

15

60T

105

24.4

24

5

3



28

Buffalo Bills

16

27.1

434

467

29.2

2,224

4.8

139.0

19

76T

120

25.7

18

3

9



29

Indianapolis Colts

16

26.9

430

540

33.8

2,303

4.3

143.9

19

56

136

25.2

11

1

5



30

Cleveland Browns

16

19.2

307

534

33.4

2,359

4.4

147.4

12

67

124

23.2

16

1

6



31

St. Louis Rams

16

25.4

407

510

31.9

2,433

4.8

152.1

17

91T

122

23.9

14

7

12



32

Tampa Bay Buccaneers

16

30.9

494

498

31.1

2,497

5.0

156.1

26

81T

135

27.1

28

3

10






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Chef Zambini
06-08-2012, 05:28 PM
aH STATS, based on rushing yards allowed, the eagles did rank #16, however they game up a higher yards per average than many of the other teams ranked below them, and far more rushing touchdowns than , lets say the #22 ranked team, the broncos.
stats / schmats, rankings / schmankings.
opponents found it EASY to run against the eagles, to get first downs and to put the ball in the end-zone! they spent all that time and money focusing and bragging about their pass defense and teams just ran on them to win.
The same will happen to our broncos if we also become miopic in our defensive strategy !
thats my point and i am sticking to it !

Superchop 7
06-09-2012, 01:21 PM
Look......we can make any team one dimensional with run blitz packages.

But I do think we will look back at this draft which was heavy on DTs and know we screwed up.

Cugel
06-12-2012, 01:31 PM
Look......we can make any team one dimensional with run blitz packages.

But I do think we will look back at this draft which was heavy on DTs and know we screwed up.

Only if Wolfe doesn't pan out.

The Broncos wanted to draft Brockers or Poe, but both were gone by #14. So, if either becomes a star then it's not Elway's fault they didn't draft him!

If Devon Still or Worthy becomes a star DT and Wolfe doesn't then you can criticize him.