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WARHORSE
05-29-2009, 04:48 AM
Brandon Marshall is an unofficial holdout.

The Broncos' star receiver is hoping to force the team to restructure his contract by moving his rehabilitation away from its Dove Valley headquarters this week while the rest of team is practicing at passing camp.

Marshall delivered his request for a raise last week to Broncos coach Josh McDaniels. Given the uncertain future created by Marshall's off-field legal and injury issues, the Broncos are not willing to redo his deal.

"Brandon is not a holdout," Marshall's attorney Harvey Steinberg said. "He went back to Orlando so he could continue rehabbing from his surgery."

Although Marshall is unable to participate as he recovers from hip surgery, the team's other injured players show up at the facility each day to rehab. Technically, the passing camp is voluntary. Only the June 12-14 minicamp is considered mandatory.

A protest by another name, however, is a protest and Marshall has made it clear he believes he's underpaid. In the final season of the four-year contract he received as a fourth-round draft choice rookie, Marshall already hit substantial incentives that raised his 2009 salary from $535,000 to $2.2 million.

In Marshall's defense, his salary request is affordable for a receiver who averaged 103 catches and 1,295 receiving yards the past two years.

Larry Fitzgerald averages $10 million a year, Randy Moss $9 million, Andre Johnson has an eight-year deal at $7.5 million per and Anquan Boldin is holding out in Arizona trying to get a deal worth at least $9 million per.

Even if Marshall is another big season away from gaining inclusion in the elite receiver group, he believes he is considered close enough to the neighborhood to seek greater compensation.

The timing of Marshall's contract request, however, is peculiar given so many other issues that could negatively affect his immediate future. Begin with the arthroscopic hip surgery March 31.

Although Marshall started running last week and is expected to be fully healthy by training camp, an injured hip can be a delicate injury for a receiver.

There also is the matter of Marshall's ongoing legal trouble that could draw a second NFL suspension in two years. ESPN's "Outside The Lines" will air a story Sunday that rehashes Marshall's past troubles with former girlfriend Rasheeda Watley.

The Broncos and Marshall did not cooperate with ESPN, saying it was a year-old story. What's new about the "OTL" report is Watley grants her first interview since the incidents.

"This comes on the heels of his engagement to another woman," Steinberg said. "We advised ESPN that we had considerable documentation as proof that refutes the allegations. We were told we would have the opportunity to present those live, on camera, and they reneged on their offer."

Marshall has been involved in 13 police-related transgressions since Oct. 31, 2004, when he was arrested on a variety of charges during his junior year at Central Florida, until March 1, when he was arrested on disorderly conduct after an argument with his fiancee Michi Nogami, who also was charged. Charges against both Marshall and Nogami were dismissed the next day.

"OTL" focuses on the domestic violence incidents involving Marshall and Watley. In the story, Watley said she is going forward with charges against Marshall on misdemeanor battery from a March 6, 2008, arrest in Atlanta because, "I feel like somebody has to stand up and stop him from doing this because the Broncos haven't done it, the NFL hasn't done it, the Atlanta police department hasn't done it."
The repeated incidents with Watley led NFL commissioner Roger Goodell to suspend Marshall for one game and fine him for two games last season. As for Marshall's most recent incident involving Nogami, NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said by text the matter is "still pending."

Dirk
05-29-2009, 05:50 AM
All I can do is shake my head.... :tsk:

Nomad
05-29-2009, 07:09 AM
All I can do is shake my head.... :tsk:

I agree! I believe it was Jrwiz or CoachChaz who called this many months ago and they were right. The kid is a beast when he can be but he hasn't earned his right for a pay raise with his play on the field and off the field. I'm not going to go through the list of the reasons why not. I guess since he's not going to get disciplined by the league, he's decided to flex his muscles. :tsk: When we thought the drama was done, just another headache for BRONCO fans.

MasterShake
05-29-2009, 07:15 AM
I have a hard time believing this so I won't. He's not THAT dumb, is he?

sneakers
05-29-2009, 07:18 AM
Isn't he facing a supension coming up?

Den21vsBal19
05-29-2009, 07:22 AM
What the hell kind of advice do these eejut agents give these kids?

Marshall's got a rap sheet with the league, with another incident to be considered, plus he's currently coming off an injury...................nobody's going to offer 'serious money' until Goodell's decided what he's going to do................

Steinberg's advice should be 'keep your nose clean, play lights out & you will get that big deal next year'.......I'm sure he can take out an insurane policy against future earnings...................

roomemp
05-29-2009, 07:40 AM
I am not going to speculate. But if does hold out.......I say hit the road jack.

Fan in Exile
05-29-2009, 07:57 AM
Come on guys let's not over react to this, I get that we're tired of all the crap that's been going on but this is all little thing. He's not going to get suspended we shouldn't worry about what some bitter ex has to say and it's pretty sad that OTL is even doing a report on it. Sure he's had 13 run ins, but the last one was what three months ago, and the one before that was a year ago.

His on the field play will get him more money he's done a lot for us and he is vastly underpaid right now. The hip won't stop him from getting a new contract but it should change the language.

WARHORSE
05-29-2009, 08:04 AM
If it werent for the off the field incidents, we would be wise to lock him up.

Since he has them, but has played admirably, Id say sign him with behavior clauses.

Marshall was not the same player this year as he was last year except in game two against San Diego prior to hurting his hip.

Honestly, his movement and quickness was hampered significantly.

Year before last, I can only remember ONE instance where the first tackler that got to him put him on the ground, and it was because of his quickness.

In his first game back this past year, he caught a gazillion balls against Cromartie. You could see that quick movement.


After the injury, you didnt see it any more the entire year.

Im talking about his ability to make people miss that are three feet away.

He is a considerable talent, and I think we get him at a discounted price if we sign him now.

Or, we let him have a killer year, which he will have, and then owe him the bank.

Just look at his moves in this vid from last year and watch how many times he makes the first guy miss:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16qhwX26vOA&feature=related

This is a guy you want on your team. Use the behavior clauses and sign him up, make him happy. Hes worked hard.

broncofaninfla
05-29-2009, 08:24 AM
The only way he is going to get the money he wants is to stay out of trouble this season and kick*ss on the field. If we do give him a raise hopefully it includes a dropped pass clause that reduces his pay drop by drop.

atwater27
05-29-2009, 08:24 AM
shoulda traded his dumb ass a while ago.

Dreadnought
05-29-2009, 08:27 AM
As great a natural talent as he is, I no longer think he's worth the aggravation he seems to bring. So be it. I hope they don't offer a restructured contract personally.

CoachChaz
05-29-2009, 08:34 AM
I'll say it again. If he holds out, let him sit or trade him. I know arthroscopic surgery doesnt sound like alot, but in the long haul, it does have it's affects. Regardless of the rehab...the hip will never be 100% again.

elsid13
05-29-2009, 09:05 AM
I agree! I believe it was Jrwiz or CoachChaz who called this many months ago and they were right. The kid is a beast when he can be but he hasn't earned his right for a pay raise with his play on the field and off the field. I'm not going to go through the list of the reasons why not. I guess since he's not going to get disciplined by the league, he's decided to flex his muscles. :tsk: When we thought the drama was done, just another headache for BRONCO fans.

I don't understand how he hasn't earned the right to ask for money? He played is ass off on the field and last two season has over 100 catches (which include last season playing on bum hip that screwed up his timing and breaks). Every DC that plays for Denver needs to account for him and he force double coverage on his side of the field that let Royal and the other WR have room to make plays. The guy is legitimate difference maker in both passing and running game and you don't think he earned it?

CoachChaz
05-29-2009, 09:08 AM
I don't understand how he hasn't earned the right to ask for money? He played is ass off on the field and last two season has over 100 catches (which include last season playing on bum hip that screwed up his timing and breaks). Every DC that plays for Denver needs to account for him and he force double coverage on his side of the field that let Royal and the other WR have room to make plays. The guy is legitimate difference maker in both passing and running game and you don't think he earned it?

The whole argument we posted a while back was that we werent interested in paying top 5 money to a guy that has shown NO ability to stay out of trouble. Not too many of us want to pay 9 mil a year to a guy that may or may not play an entire season due to his behavior.

Yes, he has skills and maybe one day he'll cut down the dropped passes. but top 5 money right now? No way.

broncohead
05-29-2009, 09:17 AM
The whole argument we posted a while back was that we werent interested in paying top 5 money to a guy that has shown NO ability to stay out of trouble. Not too many of us want to pay 9 mil a year to a guy that may or may not play an entire season due to his behavior.

Yes, he has skills and maybe one day he'll cut down the dropped passes. but top 5 money right now? No way.

from what the article said is that what he is asking is resonable. So it won't be top 5 money. It's hard to make an agument when I don't know what he's asking though. Does he need a raise? Yes imo. Top 5? No.

roomemp
05-29-2009, 09:21 AM
I don't understand how he hasn't earned the right to ask for money? He played is ass off on the field and last two season has over 100 catches (which include last season playing on bum hip that screwed up his timing and breaks). Every DC that plays for Denver needs to account for him and he force double coverage on his side of the field that let Royal and the other WR have room to make plays. The guy is legitimate difference maker in both passing and running game and you don't think he earned it?

He has also played his ass off "off the field" as well. And not in a good way. Dude is one more inccedent away from an 8 games suspension. You think that deserves an increase in pay ?

Elevation inc
05-29-2009, 09:21 AM
the guy has earned a fair contract even with his off field troubles, problem is this is just the DP spinning crap. Marshall was present for most of off-season work and even stated how excited he was about the upcoming season, he goes back to orlando to rehab his hip and as a result he misses out on a VOLUNTARY PASSING CAMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KEY WORD VOLUNTARY!!!!! and the world attacks again.....he holdouts in june for the madatory camp and we may have a issue then. but he stated himself he has studied and dived into the playbook and cant wait to get starterd. my guess is he will be around when its required....


Seriously leave the guy alone, there is no wrong decision staying in orlando to rehab a hip injury if your not missing any mandatory bronco stuf.....even the DP writers said he was asking for a reportedly fair amount.


good off-season is spin city.....

roomemp
05-29-2009, 09:36 AM
the guy has earned a fair contract even with his off field troubles, problem is this is just the DP spinning crap. Marshall was present for most of off-season work and even stated how excited he was about the upcoming season, he goes back to orlando to rehab his hip and as a result he misses out on a VOLUNTARY PASSING CAMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KEY WORD VOLUNTARY!!!!! and the world attacks again.....he holdouts in june for the madatory camp and we may have a issue then. but he stated himself he has studied and dived into the playbook and cant wait to get starterd. my guess is he will be around when its required....


Seriously leave the guy alone, there is no wrong decision staying in orlando to rehab a hip injury if your not missing any mandatory bronco stuf.....even the DP writers said he was asking for a reportedly fair amount.


good off-season is spin city.....

Wow........I wish I was rewarded for getting in trouble.

Fan in Exile
05-29-2009, 09:52 AM
Wow........I wish I was rewarded for getting in trouble.

What a stupid statement. He isn't being rewarded for getting in trouble. He's being paid because for 206 receptions and 2500 yards in two seasons.

Northman
05-29-2009, 09:53 AM
Brandon is a good player but he still has a way to go before he should get his due money.

Dortoh
05-29-2009, 09:54 AM
I dont like the man but **** it pay him. It very well could be a long enough season coming up as it is.

roomemp
05-29-2009, 09:58 AM
What a stupid statement. He isn't being rewarded for getting in trouble. He's being paid because for 206 receptions and 2500 yards in two seasons.

The dude is still possibly facing an 8 GAME SUSPENSION this year. He probably won't get it but there is still a chance. So you want to sign him this year before we know if he is going to be suspended????

Talk about Dead money against the cap

All of this is BS anyways. Marshall isn't getting ready to hold out I am sure

shank
05-29-2009, 10:00 AM
play time incentives.

Dortoh
05-29-2009, 10:17 AM
play time incentives.

Meh off field incentives would be my direction. We know the man will produce on the field. I'd be willing to give him top 5-10 $ if he would be willing to allow some pretty serious team protections built into the contract regarding his personal off field actions.

underrated29
05-29-2009, 10:17 AM
look the guy deserves a raise. He totally does. But i dont see anywhere in there that he is asking for top 5 money.


I think it would be wise, especially considering that Mcd system will make him an allstar, that we lock him up long term NOW! Throw in a few offield clauses and let him make around 4-5 mil a year w/ escalators that he can increase that to close to top 6-8 wr money.

shank
05-29-2009, 10:23 AM
Meh off field incentives would be my direction. We know the man will produce on the field. I'd be willing to give him top 5-10 $ if he would be willing to allow some pretty serious team protections built into the contract regarding his personal off field actions.

i don't know if you CAN do off-field contingencies; like i'm pretty sure you can't do anything in a contract to plan for substance policy infractions. i'm probably wrong.

he deserves a raise, and i think we'd be wise to do it now, because we have the leverage of the off-field stuff and the injury to protect ourselves. if he keeps his nose clean this year and has a great season, his price skyrockets.

Dortoh
05-29-2009, 10:26 AM
i don't know if you CAN do off-field contingencies; like i'm pretty sure you can't do anything in a contract to plan for substance policy infractions. i'm probably wrong.

he deserves a raise, and i think we'd be wise to do it now, because we have the leverage of the off-field stuff and the injury to protect ourselves. if he keeps his nose clean this year and has a great season, his price skyrockets.

Interesting does anyone know more about this?

elsid13
05-29-2009, 10:47 AM
i don't know if you CAN do off-field contingencies; like i'm pretty sure you can't do anything in a contract to plan for substance policy infractions. i'm probably wrong.

he deserves a raise, and i think we'd be wise to do it now, because we have the leverage of the off-field stuff and the injury to protect ourselves. if he keeps his nose clean this year and has a great season, his price skyrockets.

That not true. Each contract has personal conduct clause now and teams and player can put them in any deal they want.

broncofaninfla
05-29-2009, 10:48 AM
Brandon Marshall Pushing For a New Deal (http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/05/29/brandon-marshall-pushing-for-a-new-deal/)

Posted by Aaron Wilson on May 29, 2009, 11:39 a.m.
Although Denver Broncos star wide receiver Brandon Marshall doesn’t appear to be holding any real leverage, he’s lobbying behind the scenes (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_12474188) for the team to restructure his contract, according to Mike Klis of the Denver Post.
Marshall is recovering from hip surgery and is still facing thorny legal issues involving his former girlfriend. Per the report, the Broncos are not inclined to grant Marshall’s request.
Marshall is reportedly attempting a power play by rehabilitating his surgically-repaired hip away from the Broncos’ training facility. Marshall’s lawyer denied that was the case.
“Brandon is not a holdout,” Harvey Steinberg told the Post. “He went back to Orlando so he could continue rehabbing from his surgery.”
Marshall is due a $2.2 million base salary this year after catching 104 passes for 1,265 yards and six touchdowns last season. He registered 102 receptions for 1,325 yards and seven touchdowns in 2007.
Besides the medical issue, the Broncos’ hesitation to give Marshall a new deal could be because of potential pending NFL discipline.
Marshall’s former girlfriend, Rasheeda Watley, is speaking out to ESPN’s Outside The Lines program for a segment that’s scheduled to run Sunday. She’s continuing to press ahead with a domestic violence charge filed against Marshall last year.
“I feel like somebody has to stand up and stop him from doing this because the Broncos haven’t done it, the NFL hasn’t done it, the Atlanta police department hasn’t done it,” Watley told ESPN.
Marshall was suspended by the league office for one game last season and was also fined.
According to Steinberg, Watley’s allegations aren’t true.
“This comes on the heels of his engagement to another woman,” Steinberg said. “We advised ESPN that we had considerable documentation as proof that refutes the allegations. We were told we would have the opportunity to present those live, on camera, and they reneged on their offer.”

BroncoWave
05-29-2009, 10:52 AM
Misleading title. I missed where is said Marshall is planning to hold out.

honz
05-29-2009, 11:26 AM
Sounds like he is rehabbing at home and then a lot of speculation coming off of that. I believe that he wants a new deal (who wouldn't when they have 4th round rookie contract, but play like a pro bowler on the field?), but I don't see anywhere where it says he plans on holding out.

BigAL56
05-29-2009, 11:52 AM
Interesting point to think about:

If a player isn't playing up to his contract, the team doesn't honor the contract and they cut him.

If a player is playing better than his contract, he wants a new deal.

Why is the first one the only option people think is fair? I understand it. It's a business, and you want to get paid for you value and performance. Marshall isn't worth top 5 money for the position at this point, but no one said he is asking for that. But he is clearly playing above what he is getting paid.

Northman
05-29-2009, 11:55 AM
Interesting point to think about:

If a player isn't playing up to his contract, the team doesn't honor the contract and they cut him.

If a player is playing better than his contract, he wants a new deal.

Why is the first one the only option people think is fair? I understand it. It's a business, and you want to get paid for you value and performance. Marshall isn't worth top 5 money for the position at this point, but no one said he is asking for that. But he is clearly playing above what he is getting paid.


All very true except we really dont know what he is asking for. And secondly, maybe McD is concentrating on everything else right now more than contracts. Either way, if Brandon is just rehabbing and there isnt any grumblings coming from Dove Valley about it than its probably much ado about nothing at this point.

Fan in Exile
05-29-2009, 12:06 PM
All very true except we really dont know what he is asking for. And secondly, maybe McD is concentrating on everything else right now more than contracts. Either way, if Brandon is just rehabbing and there isnt any grumblings coming from Dove Valley about it than its probably much ado about nothing at this point.

McD shouldn't be doing the contract. Although the personnel department should be working on signing the draft picks I would hope that they could handle Marshall. Especially because they've already started renegotiating once already.

Northman
05-29-2009, 12:11 PM
McD shouldn't be doing the contract. Although the personnel department should be working on signing the draft picks I would hope that they could handle Marshall. Especially because they've already started renegotiating once already.

My general point was i dont think thats the main focus right now for management in general. Sure, they are going to do all those things but i seriously doubt there is a massive rush and as long as Brandon isnt making a huge ordeal about it should work out fine.

Dreadnought
05-29-2009, 12:20 PM
Interesting point to think about:

If a player isn't playing up to his contract, the team doesn't honor the contract and they cut him.

If a player is playing better than his contract, he wants a new deal.

Why is the first one the only option people think is fair? I understand it. It's a business, and you want to get paid for you value and performance. Marshall isn't worth top 5 money for the position at this point, but no one said he is asking for that. But he is clearly playing above what he is getting paid.

A valid point, but in Marshall's case throw in his off field antics into the mix and it becomes a lot more dodgy of a deal for management. If Marshall was a model citizen then I think the Broncos would have already locked him up IMO.

BroncoTech
05-29-2009, 01:26 PM
I cant empathize with a guy making 2 mil a year needing a raise. These guys with character issues have hurt the club's finances and it's a major reason why Shanny is gone.

Didn't he start the altercation that lead to Darrent Williams death?


`Real Sports'' said another Broncos receiver, Brandon Marshall, and his cousin were partying with Williams' group that night and began spraying champagne around, ``some of which hit a club patron and his friend, who confronted Williams and his entourage.''

If he hooks up with another team I'd say adios Brandon.

Requiem / The Dagda
05-29-2009, 01:31 PM
Klis has managed to ignite about 12 wars between Broncos fans this off-season with misleading article titles and erroneous information. Good work, Klis!

Italianmobstr7
05-29-2009, 01:36 PM
I cant empathize with a guy making 2 mil a year needing a raise. These guys with character issues have hurt the club's finances and it's a major reason why Shanny is gone.

Didn't he start the altercation that lead to Darrent Williams death?



If he hooks up with another team I'd say adios Brandon.

Unless you were there, you don't know who started the altercation that lead to Williams death. It's all just pure speculation. Even so, you can't hold Marshall accountable for something like that! Shooting someone is completely wrong no matter if you got champagne sprayed on you or not.

If Marshall wants a raise, then he should get one. He's in the last year of his contract and he's been great for us. He's a top 10 NFL WR and deserves to be paid like one.

Fan in Exile
05-29-2009, 01:40 PM
My general point was i dont think thats the main focus right now for management in general. Sure, they are going to do all those things but i seriously doubt there is a massive rush and as long as Brandon isnt making a huge ordeal about it should work out fine.

My general point was that there are people who specifically work on contracts and cap management and for them this is the main focus.

Dortoh
05-29-2009, 01:43 PM
Klis has managed to ignite about 12 wars between Broncos fans this off-season with misleading article titles and erroneous information. Good work, Klis!

Sadly stupid sells

NightTrainLayne
05-29-2009, 01:49 PM
I cant empathize with a guy making 2 mil a year needing a raise. These guys with character issues have hurt the club's finances and it's a major reason why Shanny is gone.

Didn't he start the altercation that lead to Darrent Williams death?



If he hooks up with another team I'd say adios Brandon.

It could be, but I think it's more likely that if Champagne being sprayed around was the cause, that Javon Walker is the one to blame. After he got his huge contract with Oakland he went to Vegas and sprayed champagne all over a club there, and then not too long after got his face kicked in.

Maybe it's just a coincidence that Javon partying led to one players death, and his face getting rearranged, but maybe it's not so coincidental either.

Besides, it seems Marshall likes to start stuff with women. .. out of his 13 altercations I don't remember reading any involving fights with other men.

BroncoTech
05-29-2009, 02:10 PM
Unless you were there, you don't know who started the altercation that lead to Williams death. It's all just pure speculation. Even so, you can't hold Marshall accountable for something like that! Shooting someone is completely wrong no matter if you got champagne sprayed on you or not.

If Marshall wants a raise, then he should get one. He's in the last year of his contract and he's been great for us. He's a top 10 NFL WR and deserves to be paid like one.

So happy to hear in your neighborhood someone with enough money to make it rain champagne needs a raise. In my ghetto he's cost the team more than he can ever add to the team. I'll put my crack ho' money on Eddy Royal, yes sir. Now there's a baller. No drama just production.

It's funny we're mentioning Javon, but what about Travis? He needs a raise too?

Dortoh
05-29-2009, 02:14 PM
Wait the Bears need a wr and we need a qb..............trade BMarsh for Cutler

honz
05-29-2009, 02:14 PM
If spraying champagne on someone warrants getting shot at, I would have been killed long ago. Stupid people do stupid things...no need to play the blame game on this again...shit happens.

topscribe
05-29-2009, 02:18 PM
Give BMarsh a new contract in appreciation for his on-field excellence.

Include strict off-field incentives, qualifications, and requirements.

Require regular counseling and/or anger management classes for the entire year.

Keep eye out for what is available for trade around the league--just in case.

-----

weazel
05-29-2009, 02:22 PM
Brandon Marshall is an unofficial holdout.

The Broncos' star receiver is hoping to force the team to restructure his contract by moving his rehabilitation away from its Dove Valley headquarters this week while the rest of team is practicing at passing camp.

Marshall delivered his request for a raise last week to Broncos coach Josh McDaniels. Given the uncertain future created by Marshall's off-field legal and injury issues, the Broncos are not willing to redo his deal.

"Brandon is not a holdout," Marshall's attorney Harvey Steinberg said. "He went back to Orlando so he could continue rehabbing from his surgery."

Although Marshall is unable to participate as he recovers from hip surgery, the team's other injured players show up at the facility each day to rehab. Technically, the passing camp is voluntary. Only the June 12-14 minicamp is considered mandatory.

A protest by another name, however, is a protest and Marshall has made it clear he believes he's underpaid. In the final season of the four-year contract he received as a fourth-round draft choice rookie, Marshall already hit substantial incentives that raised his 2009 salary from $535,000 to $2.2 million.

In Marshall's defense, his salary request is affordable for a receiver who averaged 103 catches and 1,295 receiving yards the past two years.

Larry Fitzgerald averages $10 million a year, Randy Moss $9 million, Andre Johnson has an eight-year deal at $7.5 million per and Anquan Boldin is holding out in Arizona trying to get a deal worth at least $9 million per.

Even if Marshall is another big season away from gaining inclusion in the elite receiver group, he believes he is considered close enough to the neighborhood to seek greater compensation.

The timing of Marshall's contract request, however, is peculiar given so many other issues that could negatively affect his immediate future. Begin with the arthroscopic hip surgery March 31.

Although Marshall started running last week and is expected to be fully healthy by training camp, an injured hip can be a delicate injury for a receiver.

There also is the matter of Marshall's ongoing legal trouble that could draw a second NFL suspension in two years. ESPN's "Outside The Lines" will air a story Sunday that rehashes Marshall's past troubles with former girlfriend Rasheeda Watley.

The Broncos and Marshall did not cooperate with ESPN, saying it was a year-old story. What's new about the "OTL" report is Watley grants her first interview since the incidents.

"This comes on the heels of his engagement to another woman," Steinberg said. "We advised ESPN that we had considerable documentation as proof that refutes the allegations. We were told we would have the opportunity to present those live, on camera, and they reneged on their offer."

Marshall has been involved in 13 police-related transgressions since Oct. 31, 2004, when he was arrested on a variety of charges during his junior year at Central Florida, until March 1, when he was arrested on disorderly conduct after an argument with his fiancee Michi Nogami, who also was charged. Charges against both Marshall and Nogami were dismissed the next day.

"OTL" focuses on the domestic violence incidents involving Marshall and Watley. In the story, Watley said she is going forward with charges against Marshall on misdemeanor battery from a March 6, 2008, arrest in Atlanta because, "I feel like somebody has to stand up and stop him from doing this because the Broncos haven't done it, the NFL hasn't done it, the Atlanta police department hasn't done it."
The repeated incidents with Watley led NFL commissioner Roger Goodell to suspend Marshall for one game and fine him for two games last season. As for Marshall's most recent incident involving Nogami, NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said by text the matter is "still pending."


I hope he holds out. They wont have to pay his ass while it sits on a couch for 5 or so games while suspended. Maybe they can trade him and we wont have to worry about him beating his girlfriend anymore.

Lonestar
05-29-2009, 02:43 PM
Lets see have not read all of the posts here been busy this am.. so if some of this has been stated sorry about that..

Marshall is a load and has been underpaid no doubt but then he was also a 4th round pick for a reason at the time he was overjoyed at getting the money/contract he did and BTW made 2.2 off of a base 400K contract .. Probably could have made more had he not dropped so many balls. No one to blame but himself on that one..

I t seems that every time our players go to HNL shortly thereafter contract talk starts .. I guess I for one will never vote for a Bronco for Pro bowl status.. Maybe it will help us to maintain good players without them getting thoughts of sugar drops in their heads..

Now for leaving a Voluntary Passing camp.. because he can't be on the field.. playing.. this IMO is beyond stupid..

does this moron think he can get it all out of the play book and that watching form the sideline and setting through meetings he will not learn something?

Sounds like some of our college student that believe once they see something in a BOOK there is not real life out there that will totally contradict what is REALLY going on..

he need to have his ass in DEN setting in on meeting, bonding with the other players, working out with OUR trainers and showing the FO and head coach that he is a TEAM player..

If there has been nothing that I have understood about Josh from his pressers or comment I have read it is TEAM first.

On top of all the potential legal or league issues this MORON is not playing with a full deck nor a position of strength.. He should fire his agent and get his ass back to DEN and stop texting and talking to jay..

BroncoTech
05-29-2009, 05:33 PM
If only Chicago was so stupid...

Shit happens.... and shit happens to a guy 15 times are 2 different things. This guy looks more like Travis Henry every day. Instead of making contracts with clauses and anger management how about we just start over? Personally I didn't feel spraying champagne after the last game loss to SF at home. In my mind that game was the beginning of the end of watching good Denver Broncos football.

broncohead
05-29-2009, 05:44 PM
Marshall deserves a new contract for what he has done on the field. I'm not saying he deserves a top 5 or even top 10 contract but what he is getting paid right now is like a slap in the face. He is not above the team but if the team doesn't think he is worth more then what he is getting paid then they should look into getting a trade deal done because he'll end up getting big money on the FA market after this coming season. McD get a deal done. It will help the TEAM.

Benetto
05-29-2009, 07:51 PM
Marshall is too good a player to have unhappy.....he is young and stupid yes, but he will grow up and mature...Along with having more experience he will have more and more beastly performances...Marshall is a game breaker, and play maker...He needs to be a Bronco for us to succeed. No doubt.

Marshall needs to clean up his act, grow up/shut-up, play lights out this year...And then, coach will lock him up for sure.

Too much talent to just let go...I was pissed about Cutler, but got over it pretty quick...If marshall go's too, I will blow up...Just like his teammates will.

Simple Jaded
05-29-2009, 09:11 PM
Unless there is a new CBA, Brandon Marshall will be a restricted free agent following the 09 season and Marshall is also unreliable so the Broncos should extend his contract on their terms.

If the Broncos lose Brandon Marshall, oh well, it's the same shit different day for this organization.......

Benetto
05-29-2009, 09:15 PM
If we lose brandon Marshall, I will be a VERY un-happy camper...Unless we bring in another franchise WR...

It seems like any Bronco who made it to the Pro-bowl is going to be traded or released. What a joke this is turning out to be.

rcsodak
05-29-2009, 11:03 PM
I agree! I believe it was Jrwiz or CoachChaz who called this many months ago and they were right. The kid is a beast when he can be but he hasn't earned his right for a pay raise with his play on the field and off the field. I'm not going to go through the list of the reasons why not. I guess since he's not going to get disciplined by the league, he's decided to flex his muscles. :tsk: When we thought the drama was done, just another headache for BRONCO fans.

If I remember correctly, weren't the two parties involved in renegotiating his contract when his last run-in with the law occurred?

I imagine it might have happened had it not been for his poor timing.

Now with the upcoming CBA befuddery, he could end up playing at the same contract for the next 4yrs.

rcsodak
05-29-2009, 11:07 PM
If it werent for the off the field incidents, we would be wise to lock him up.

Since he has them, but has played admirably, Id say sign him with behavior clauses.

Marshall was not the same player this year as he was last year except in game two against San Diego prior to hurting his hip.

Honestly, his movement and quickness was hampered significantly.

Year before last, I can only remember ONE instance where the first tackler that got to him put him on the ground, and it was because of his quickness.

In his first game back this past year, he caught a gazillion balls against Cromartie. You could see that quick movement.


After the injury, you didnt see it any more the entire year.

Im talking about his ability to make people miss that are three feet away.

He is a considerable talent, and I think we get him at a discounted price if we sign him now.

Or, we let him have a killer year, which he will have, and then owe him the bank.

Just look at his moves in this vid from last year and watch how many times he makes the first guy miss:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16qhwX26vOA&feature=related

This is a guy you want on your team. Use the behavior clauses and sign him up, make him happy. Hes worked hard.

If he has a "killer year", the team just tags him next year. If the CBA doesn't get redone, they'll have more tags to hand out.

Lonestar
05-29-2009, 11:58 PM
If we lose brandon Marshall, I will be a VERY un-happy camper...Unless we bring in another franchise WR...

It seems like any Bronco who made it to the Pro-bowl is going to be traded or released. What a joke this is turning out to be.

once they get out and play with the real talent in the NFL they do not want to come back to a cow town.. poorti$$$$, ashely, walker, jay, marshall...

every one that goes there has an agent whisper in their ear they could/should be making more money..

Simple Jaded
05-30-2009, 11:49 AM
Maybe they could trade Marshall for one of NE's backups.......no wait, Gafney is already here.

Well one thing is certain, if they get rid of Marshall, don't expect much in return, even if they get a Top10 pick they won't keep it.

And if Marshall earns a huge contract with his play in 09, he's gone.......

Lonestar
05-30-2009, 12:26 PM
Maybe they could trade Marshall for one of NE's backups.......no wait, Gafney is already here.

Well one thing is certain, if they get rid of Marshall, don't expect much in return, even if they get a Top10 pick they won't keep it.

And if Marshall earns a huge contract with his play in 09, he's gone.......

OMG the sky is falling the sky is falling.

Get a grip while he is a pretty decent WR will he ever grow out of being a wife beater or will his hip be 100% again.

He is a real maroon for missing passing camp, where he can learn the plays and rehb said hip.

Sent via Blackberry

rcsodak
05-31-2009, 12:39 AM
Maybe they could trade Marshall for one of NE's backups.......no wait, Gafney is already here.

Well one thing is certain, if they get rid of Marshall, don't expect much in return, even if they get a Top10 pick they won't keep it.

And if Marshall earns a huge contract with his play in 09, he's gone.......

Oh, for craps sakes.....




......waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa



:coffee:

Requiem / The Dagda
05-31-2009, 11:39 AM
OMG the sky is falling the sky is falling.

Pretty interesting given your track history of "the Broncos/Mikey/etc." suck posts.


Get a grip while he is a pretty decent WR will he ever grow out of being a wife beater or will his hip be 100% again.

Pretty decent? In the past two years he's have 206 receptions for almost 2,700 yards and 13 touchdowns. There is nothing "pretty decent" about that -- it is pretty ******* awesome. As for the last two comments, I'm more concerned about his behavior rather than his hip. Players have surgeries all the time, most of them go unnoticed by the public; but with the proliferation of the WWW and the media, that stuff is more easily known. Remember when Dan Neil was kicking ass at guard for us? Dude had over a dozen surgeries in his time as a Bronco, and most nobody ever knew he had them. I wouldn't even begin to use his "hip" as a reason not to resign him. If Brandon is another 1,000 yard receiver on this team -- you keep him. You don't let a weapon like that walk. Pay the man.

You've discussed for a long time, and I've agreed with you -- that Denver doesn't retain the good players they have. . . and when it comes to Marshall -- we are supposed to just let him Waltz because of concern?


He is a real maroon for missing passing camp, where he can learn the plays and rehb said hip.

Brandon is back home in Florida to continue his rehab there, with my understanding that he will see a professionalist during his hiatus. I'm sure he has his playbook with him and will be studying aptly. I think that is a safe bet, but leave it up to the chicken little's of the past on the message boards to try and indict him for something really inconsequential.

"The sky is falling!"

Lonestar
05-31-2009, 02:01 PM
Pretty interesting given your track history of "the Broncos/Mikey/etc." suck posts.

Pretty decent? In the past two years he's have 206 receptions for almost 2,700 yards and 13 touchdowns. There is nothing "pretty decent" about that -- it is pretty ******* awesome. As for the last two comments, I'm more concerned about his behavior rather than his hip. Players have surgeries all the time, most of them go unnoticed by the public; but with the proliferation of the WWW and the media, that stuff is more easily known. Remember when Dan Neil was kicking ass at guard for us? Dude had over a dozen surgeries in his time as a Bronco, and most nobody ever knew he had them. I wouldn't even begin to use his "hip" as a reason not to resign him. If Brandon is another 1,000 yard receiver on this team -- you keep him. You don't let a weapon like that walk. Pay the man.

You've discussed for a long time, and I've agreed with you -- that Denver doesn't retain the good players they have. . . and when it comes to Marshall -- we are supposed to just let him Waltz because of concern?



Brandon is back home in Florida to continue his rehab there, with my understanding that he will see a professionalist during his hiatus. I'm sure he has his playbook with him and will be studying aptly. I think that is a safe bet, but leave it up to the chicken little's of the past on the message boards to try and indict him for something really inconsequential.

"The sky is falling!"

in case you missed it Pat finally heard from me the sky was falling.. and in case you missed the news flash mikey is gone..

is Marshall a talent sure he is when he is on the field once he gets off the field is when he has MAJOR issues..

If we could only allow him out of his cage at Dove valley and on Game day I would re-sign him in a heart beat..

as for brandon "studying" on his own in FL great .. but that is nothing like seeing it on the sideline and setting in on film/coaching sessions they are holding..

not even to mention he has 45+ new team (mostly rookies) members he should be setting an examples for positively not being a pseudo holdout..

as for rehabbing his hip yep it is "minor" surgery for most humans some one that is a major athlete that having great hips in performng his job perhaps he should be working with professionals on his team..

marshall should be AT the voluntary camp just as jay should have been.. and we all saw how that played out, a moron that was listening to his agent and not his NEW coaches..


in this case the sky might be starting to fall..

Requiem / The Dagda
05-31-2009, 02:53 PM
No, it isn't -- but whatever makes you feel better in fantasy land is your prerogative.

Simple Jaded
05-31-2009, 04:04 PM
OMG the sky is falling the sky is falling.

Get a grip while he is a pretty decent WR will he ever grow out of being a wife beater or will his hip be 100% again.

He is a real maroon for missing passing camp, where he can learn the plays and rehb said hip.

Sent via Blackberry


Oh, for craps sakes.....




......waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa



:coffee:

I couldn't care less if Denver loses Brandon Marshall, this regime thinks The System is the Real Talent, I realize that and I'm thoroughly prepared to watch Denver lose it's talented core of offensive players and few defensive players, because if there is a single wrong way to handle a delicate and pivotal situation with the aplomb and ease of a 4 Month Veteran, fear not True Believers, Doogie will find it. Just another day at the office for my man Joshua McDaniels!

Brandon Marshall is not "Decent" (Gimme a break), he is nearing Elite level in the NFL, he's proven that he has Elite talent all he lacks is consistency, the problem is off field issues, that is why Denver must handle this situation with the patience that the former regime showed with Marshall.......the only problem with that is, the new regime would sooner wipe their ass with existing players than they would give an inch of leverage.

Personally, I think Denver can justify not bending over backwards to keep Marshall, but if they lose him they aren't giving fans any indication that they care about anything but doing it The Patriot Way.......that's pathetic, they're not the Patriots, Doogie is not Bill Belicheat and Jabar Gaffney is not Brandon Marshall.

Speaking of getting a grip, Broncos fans need to come to grips with the fact that with this regime, even the Clady's and Marshall's could be moved for one of "McDaniels Guys".

That is not "The Sky is Falling", that is Reality.

RC, I'll suggest the same thing I suggested to Jr, you may want to find the ignore button, I will probably be getting under your skin for the forseeable future.......

silkamilkamonico
05-31-2009, 08:21 PM
I was actually on the belief that the players were the talent, and not the system, until I saw Jay "the franchise" Cutler, arguably the best oline in football, Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, Brandon Stokley, and one of the best TE core's in football finish a measly average in points scored for the season.

NameUsedBefore
05-31-2009, 08:23 PM
I was actually on the belief that the players were the talent, and not the system, until I saw Jay "the franchise" Cutler, arguably the best oline in football, Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, Brandon Stokley, and one of the best TE core's in football finish a measly average in points scored for the season.

7 RBs on IR and arguably the worst defense in the entire NFL last year might have had a hand in that.

silkamilkamonico
05-31-2009, 08:26 PM
7 RBs on IR and arguably the worst defense in the entire NFL last year might have had a hand in that.

Our Rb's were third in the NFL in yards per carry last year.

I love the defense argument. Cutler and the offense did plenty enough to contribute to the worst defense in the NFL, especially when Cutler was single handily scoring half of Miami's points which would result in the a loss, and a season of missed playoffs.

When you're a "franchise QB", you're job is to score points regardless of the defense. If Cutler and the offense was actually good at that we wouldn't be having this conversation.

NameUsedBefore
05-31-2009, 09:24 PM
Our Rb's were third in the NFL in yards per carry last year.

I love the defense argument. Cutler and the offense did plenty enough to contribute to the worst defense in the NFL, especially when Cutler was single handily scoring half of Miami's points which would result in the a loss, and a season of missed playoffs.

When you're a "franchise QB", you're job is to score points regardless of the defense. If Cutler and the offense was actually good at that we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Cutler is only in his third year and is only improving. To think he'll play like a seasoned pro at this stage is ridiculous.

As for the run-game, people always bring it up as if statistics tell the whole story. We all know Denver's run game was habitually hamstrung by injuries and having to dump it at half-time. A great YPC is irrelevant if the other team is steamrolling you, which they were. My staple example is the San Diego game. Tatum Bell ran for 80 yards on 8 carries, how come we didn't win? Oh that's right, because the defense was giving up plays like it was touch-only practice.

And our defense was bad all the way around. We had the worst starting position and number of turnovers in the league and I don't think the offense has much to do with that. With the run-game being taken out of the frame in many of the games, we had to gun it with Cutler. It was an incomplete team and only in hindsight do people have the gall to say that offense should have been smashing. Cutler slinging it 40, 50 times a game is no bueno. It reflects the fact that we were an incomplete team. Some people have then said Shanahan purposely dropped the run-game which, given Shanahan's history, is seriously one of the more ridiculous things I've heard.

Was the offense perfect? No. It was a young offense and it had blemishes like the Oakland and Kansas City games. What it did show was that at certain times it could hang with the league's best (Falcons, Steelers, Saints etc.). It was a young offense with a very high potential ceiling with a legitimate QB at the helm; all that was needed was a healthy running-back and a better defense (at the very least, one that produces turnovers). Regardless of any of these facets, Cutler's play last season doesn't justify dumping him. Peyton Manning was hardly spectacular for his first five seasons, but I think he's doing fairly well these days.


As it is, it blows my goddam mind that for ten years Denver can look for a franchise QB, get one, and then the fans shrug it off when he is traded away as he's heading into his prime. I seriously cannot get over this apathy towards what was done with Cutler. Hey, I guess going through Beuerlein, Griese, Kanell, Plummer et al wasn't bad enough. Here's Chris Simms and Kyle Orton. Who is going to be the starter? Oh, you don't know? Would it surprise you if I said neither of them will be in two years?

shank
05-31-2009, 09:43 PM
NUB, i don't think i've seen too many people who don't care what happened to cutler. we've just moved on because there is no other option. it's a weight off the shoulders, i suggest you look into it. :salute:

MOtorboat
05-31-2009, 09:45 PM
Cutler is only in his third year and is only improving. To think he'll play like a seasoned pro at this stage is ridiculous.

As for the run-game, people always bring it up as if statistics tell the whole story. We all know Denver's run game was habitually hamstrung by injuries and having to dump it at half-time. A great YPC is irrelevant if the other team is steamrolling you, which they were. My staple example is the San Diego game. Tatum Bell ran for 80 yards on 8 carries, how come we didn't win? Oh that's right, because the defense was giving up plays like it was touch-only practice.

And our defense was bad all the way around. We had the worst starting position and number of turnovers in the league and I don't think the offense has much to do with that. With the run-game being taken out of the frame in many of the games, we had to gun it with Cutler. It was an incomplete team and only in hindsight do people have the gall to say that offense should have been smashing. Cutler slinging it 40, 50 times a game is no bueno. It reflects the fact that we were an incomplete team. Some people have then said Shanahan purposely dropped the run-game which, given Shanahan's history, is seriously one of the more ridiculous things I've heard.

Was the offense perfect? No. It was a young offense and it had blemishes like the Oakland and Kansas City games. What it did show was that at certain times it could hang with the league's best (Falcons, Steelers, Saints etc.). It was a young offense with a very high potential ceiling with a legitimate QB at the helm; all that was needed was a healthy running-back and a better defense (at the very least, one that produces turnovers). Regardless of any of these facets, Cutler's play last season doesn't justify dumping him. Peyton Manning was hardly spectacular for his first five seasons, but I think he's doing fairly well these days.


As it is, it blows my goddam mind that for ten years Denver can look for a franchise QB, get one, and then the fans shrug it off when he is traded away as he's heading into his prime. I seriously cannot get over this apathy towards what was done with Cutler. Hey, I guess going through Beuerlein, Griese, Kanell, Plummer et al wasn't bad enough. Here's Chris Simms and Kyle Orton. Who is going to be the starter? Oh, you don't know? Would it surprise you if I said neither of them will be in two years?

Go root for the Bears.

Lonestar
05-31-2009, 09:53 PM
I was actually on the belief that the players were the talent, and not the system, until I saw Jay "the franchise" Cutler, arguably the best oline in football, Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, Brandon Stokley, and one of the best TE core's in football finish a measly average in points scored for the season.


7 RBs on IR and arguably the worst defense in the entire NFL last year might have had a hand in that.

while defense MAY have contributed to loses they have ALMOST nothing to do with being a prolific offense (Second best) being the 20's but lousy in the red zone and scoring 16th....

those numbers do not equate and do not blame in on the number of RB's blame it on not using them inside the red zone..

Simple Jaded
05-31-2009, 09:56 PM
More of the "Go be a Bears fan" bullshit? Personally, I don't agree with every move they've made either, so I guess I'm a fan without a team.

Oh well.......

NameUsedBefore
05-31-2009, 09:58 PM
NUB, i don't think i've seen too many people who don't care what happened to cutler. we've just moved on because there is no other option. it's a weight off the shoulders, i suggest you look into it. :salute:

No. I've moved on as well, the issue is the hindsight that Cutler was crap and it wasn't actually that big of a loss. If it isn't stated outright it is done through fairly obvious innuendo. I get losing Cutler because he went all bitchy, but his loss certainly cannot be justified with arguments from his or the offense's play.

MOtorboat
05-31-2009, 09:59 PM
More of the "Go be a Bears fan" bullshit? Personally, I don't agree with every move they've made either, so I guess I'm a fan without a team.

Oh well.......

Cutler isn't John Elway.

Lonestar
05-31-2009, 10:03 PM
Cutler isn't John Elway.


but his arm was stronger.. that counts doesn't....:laugh:

is that not what makes a franchise QB?

not in my book making plays when the chips are down does up with 3 to go an EPIC fail..

WWJD he would have not lost those three games..

Lonestar
05-31-2009, 10:32 PM
More of the "Go be a Bears fan" bullshit? Personally, I don't agree with every move they've made either, so I guess I'm a fan without a team.

Oh well.......

I think you need to lower your expectations a sckoosh every team is going to have warts of some type.. And I know you for a fact did not agree with what mike did all the time.. maybe it is time to chill out and accept the fact that shit happens and move on..

Requiem / The Dagda
05-31-2009, 10:34 PM
Link, hustle harder and don't give up fighting for what you believe in!

rcsodak
05-31-2009, 11:32 PM
RC, I'll suggest the same thing I suggested to Jr, you may want to find the ignore button, I will probably be getting under your skin for the forseeable future.......

And miss out on all the fun?

:confused:


Not on your life! :lol:

rcsodak
05-31-2009, 11:35 PM
Our Rb's were third in the NFL in yards per carry last year.

I love the defense argument. Cutler and the offense did plenty enough to contribute to the worst defense in the NFL, especially when Cutler was single handily scoring half of Miami's points which would result in the a loss, and a season of missed playoffs.

When you're a "franchise QB", you're job is to score points regardless of the defense. If Cutler and the offense was actually good at that we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Don't forget the number of times cut-n-run'er couldn't score 20+ pts in a game!

It's pathetic to see how he couldn't against the likes of the chefs/faiduhs, etc.

I guess maybe the defense should have scored a TD or 2..... :coffee:

rcsodak
05-31-2009, 11:41 PM
More of the "Go be a Bears fan" bullshit? Personally, I don't agree with every move they've made either, so I guess I'm a fan without a team.

Oh well.......

.....so that's what being a "fan" is.......? :tsk:

rcsodak
05-31-2009, 11:47 PM
Brandon is back home in Florida to continue his rehab there, with my understanding that he will see a professionalist


Link, hustle harder and don't give up fighting for what you believe in!

Waittttttttttt!!!!!!!!


I'm still looking up "professionalist"! :confused:

Requiem / The Dagda
05-31-2009, 11:51 PM
I'm still looking up "professionalist"! :confused:

I apologize that you SDSU graduates are a little slower (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Professionalist) than us bosses up north.

Time to look into the eyes of a man you though you were better than. T-R-I-Double L -- that's with capital letters "mang."

Simple Jaded
06-01-2009, 12:45 AM
I think you need to lower your expectations a sckoosh every team is going to have warts of some type.. And I know you for a fact did not agree with what mike did all the time.. maybe it is time to chill out and accept the fact that shit happens and move on..

That's my point, every team makes mistakes, that includes the Bears, so if being a fan means I have to endorse every single move they make then I am man without a Country.

Anybody that is familiar with me knows that I have never been a huge fan of the former GM, but that GM has never traded a Franchise QB, he's never traded potential Top10 pick for a 2nd round talent, he never traded 2 No3's for a TE that, in his own words, wasn't even sure he'd be drafted. Shanahan never made the incredibly stupid mistakes that V2.0 makes effortlessly. I long for the days when I was complaining about Maurice Clarrett and Lennie Friedman.

I have no intention of lowering my expectations and moving on until Doogie gives me a reason to, and my expectation for a Head Coach have never been higher. I'll chill out only when Doogie delivers.......

silkamilkamonico
06-01-2009, 11:17 AM
We should have kept Jay "the franchise" Cutler. He could have been a poor man's version of Carson Palmer without the playoff appearances or winning season.

Lonestar
06-01-2009, 03:45 PM
That's my point, every team makes mistakes, that includes the Bears, so if being a fan means I have to endorse every single move they make then I am man without a Country.

Anybody that is familiar with me knows that I have never been a huge fan of the former GM, but that GM has never traded a Franchise QB, he's never traded potential Top10 pick for a 2nd round talent, he never traded 2 No3's for a TE that, in his own words, wasn't even sure he'd be drafted. Shanahan never made the incredibly stupid mistakes that V2.0 makes effortlessly. I long for the days when I was complaining about Maurice Clarrett and Lennie Friedman.

I have no intention of lowering my expectations and moving on until Doogie gives me a reason to, and my expectation for a Head Coach have never been higher. I'll chill out only when Doogie delivers.......


I will not list the following #1 DAFT busts for mikey then..

1 17 Jarvis Moss DE Florida
1 20 George Foster
1 19 Ashley Lelie WR
1 24 Willie Middlebrooks CB
1 15 Deltha O'Neal CB
1 30 Marcus Nash

or for that matter day one mistakes either all top one hunderd picks

2 56 Tim Crowder DE

3 76 Karl Paymah DB Washington State
3 97 Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland
3 101 Maurice Clarett

2 41 Tatum Bell RB Oklahoma State
2 54 Darius Watts WR Marshall
3 85 Jeremy LeSueur CB

2 51 Terry Pierce

3 96 Dorsett Davis DT

2 51 Paul Toviessi DE Marshall
3 87 Reggie Hayward DE

2 45 Kenoy Kennedy SAF Arkansas
3 70 Chris Cole WR

2 58 Montae Reagor DE Texas Tech
2 61 Lennie Friedman C Duke
3 67 Chris Watson CB Eastern Illinois
3 93 Travis McGriff WR

2 61 Eric Brown SS Mississippi State
3 91 Brian Griese QB

2 44 Tory James DB Louisiana State
3 65 Detron Smith RB Texas A&M
3 78 Mark Campbell DT

Yep boy wonder did not ever make any mistake on DAFT day.. And we will not even mention how many one year rentals we got that ultimate cost us a ton of money in dead cap space of the years..

my don't we have double standards ahahahahahahahahahahaha ..

Requiem / The Dagda
06-01-2009, 04:21 PM
Paymah, Foxworth, Hayward are still playing in the league. Tory James enjoyed a ten year career in the NFL, and Kenoy Kennedy enjoyed eight years in the NFL as well. Brian Griese is still a quarterback, and Tim Crowder had a successful rookie season, but disappeared for whatever reason last year -- but has an opportunity to make the team again this year.

All teams make poor drafting decisions, and I've yet to see you JR -- after being asked by numerous posters (over the past few years) to compare the drafting of other franchises over the past decade and how their respective Day One decisions panned out in comparison to the Broncos. I think you'd come to find that a good team would maybe average two solid picks a year, if that. Most players who are drafted end up being out of the league in a few years anyways. It wasn't like Mike's tenure was an exception to a rule; he just seemingly fit in.

Then again, you use the easy way out on blaming all the poor draft decisions on Mike and never take into account NATIONAL, as well as our own scouting staff who is responsible for coming up with the reports that Mike ultimately ends up reading. (As he admitted several times in his tenure in Denver, he never had the opportunity due to his roles to have an overactive part in draft research.)

Under Shanahan, the Broncos subscribed to the philosophy, much like the Redskins have that veteran players (as you alluded to) might pay off in bigger dividends than rookie players because they have NFL experience and can more than likely pay now. It's extremely unfortunate that we took the gambles we did, but these gambles aren't exclusive to Mike Shanahan. Other teams hit and miss as well. This isn't an excuse for poor free agent and relative drafting under Mike as head coach, but more or less pointing out that is something mutually shared league wide.

Now, I disagree with Link and his assessment that the former coach and GM never made poor decisions; because it is quite obvious he did -- but the over simplification of such decisions isn't a fair way of portraying the situation.

Lonestar
06-01-2009, 04:32 PM
Paymah, Foxworth, Hayward are still playing in the league. Tory James enjoyed a ten year career in the NFL, and Kenoy Kennedy enjoyed eight years in the NFL as well. Brian Griese is still a quarterback as well, and Tim Crowder had a successful rookie season, but disappeared for whatever reason last year -- but has an opportunity to make the team again this year.

All teams make poor drafting decisions, and I've yet to see you JR -- after being asked by numerous posters (over the past few years) to compare the drafting of other franchises over the past decade and how their respective Day One decisions panned out in comparison to the Broncos. I think you'd come to find that a good team would maybe average two solid picks a year, if that. Most players who are drafted end up being out of the league in a few years anyways. It wasn't like Mike's tenure was an exception to a rule; he just seemingly fit in.

Then again, you use the easy way out on blaming all the poor draft decisions on Mike and never take into account NATIONAL, as well as our own scouting staff who is responsible for coming up with the reports that Mike ultimately ends up reading. (As he admitted several times in his tenure in Denver, he never had the opportunity due to his roles to have an overactive part in draft research.)

Under Shanahan, the Broncos subscribed to the philosophy, much like the Redskins have that veteran players (as you alluded to) might pay off in bigger dividends than rookie players because they have NFL experience and can more than likely pay now. It's extremely unfortunate that we took the gambles we did, but these gambles aren't exclusive to Mike Shanahan. Other teams hit and miss as well. This isn't an excuse for poor free agent and relative drafting under Mike as head coach, but more or less pointing out that is something mutually shared league wide.

Now, I disagree with Link and his assessment that the former coach and GM never made poor decisions; because it is quite obvious he did -- but the over simplification of such decisions isn't a fair way of portraying the situation.



as I have told you and other many times I could care less about what other teams do as a comparsion.. I'm not their fan.. so let put that to bed once and for all.. If you want to take your time have a ball..

If the player do not sign a second contract for us it does not matter to me IF they went on to another team to play, IT only means that they were a wasted pick for US..

If they were not good enough to play here then we should have not signed them and IF the left as a FA like Hayward did we failed at re-signing them.. another epic failure..

as for were they mikes fault because our scouting staff suck YES.. cause he hired them.. was the scouting staff good and mike fell in love with a player like al Davis does based on speed or what ever who knows but the buck stopped on HIS deck.. he was an epic failure as a GM..

The reason I brought these players up was to show that mike was held to a different standard than Josh and Xman seem to be..

You build your team via the draft but mike did not other thatn OLINE that no one else wanted or at LB the rest of the DAFT choices for the most parts were total busts.. that were wasted.. Mayock could have done a better job..

Lonestar
06-01-2009, 04:38 PM
Lions ship out veteran tackle Foster, set to add Jansen
June 1, 2009
ALLEN PARK, Mich. -- The Detroit Lions have cut offensive tackle George Foster, paving the way to add Jon Jansen.

Detroit let Foster go on Monday, the same day Jansen was scheduled to take a physical with the team.

Foster was acquired before the 2007 season as part of a trade with Denver for Dre' Bly. Foster was a three-year starter for the Broncos.


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11809415


Another one bites the dust, one more of mikeys mopes that even start or BACKUP a 0-16 team.. ahahahahahahahhaahhaahahaha

MOtorboat
06-01-2009, 04:39 PM
as I have told you and other many times I could care less about what other teams do as a comparsion.. I'm not their fan.. so let put that to bed once and for all.. If you want to take your time have a ball.

That's fine, but you can't call him a bad drafter if you don't somehow make a comparison to other teams. It's just not possible to do.

I could feasibly show you that the Pittsburgh Steelers were terrible drafters, if I didn't have to compare them to anyone.

Lonestar
06-01-2009, 04:50 PM
That's fine, but you can't call him a bad drafter if you don't somehow make a comparison to other teams. It's just not possible to do.

I could feasibly show you that the Pittsburgh Steelers were terrible drafters, if I didn't have to compare them to anyone.



man open your eyes.. how many of his DAFTEES were with the team not as starters even after the 2nd TC..

one does not have to compare to anyone.. just look at how bad this team was the past few years and it was all because of the talent level and when you do that look to see how many starters were really drafted vs being FA or trades..


outside of the OLINE and LB and a few low round RB almost NONE..

I'd probably attribute the OLINE and RB to having great coaches or scheme more than being uber talented..

as far as LB only because it is hard to screw up at LB since they were almost all first rounders and ALL day one picks..

sorry but you can compare to your ass wears out I'm not going to waste more time on mikey OTHER than to use him as a comparison to the feeble attempt to discredit Josh because he made some decisions that God knows mikey may have also.. or on IMHO worse ones like drafting a one handed WR..


and nothing is worse than that one.. with a #2 it is almost criminal..

Davii
06-01-2009, 05:01 PM
He wants to go play for the Bears. McDaniels already made it clear, the players get what the really want. Away from this debacle.

Requiem / The Dagda
06-01-2009, 06:29 PM
as I have told you and other many times I could care less about what other teams do as a comparsion.. I'm not their fan.. so let put that to bed once and for all.. If you want to take your time have a ball..

Actually, you don't care because if you actually did the research, you'd come to find out that it is pretty much the same league wide; which would defeat any argument you've had against Mike about him being the worst drafter in the world; and would consequently make your cute little "daft" statements have less meaning. More or less, you not caring is your way of being able to justify the bullshit you speak with really no leg to stand on.


If the player do not sign a second contract for us it does not matter to me IF they went on to another team to play, IT only means that they were a wasted pick for US..

There is a lot to be concerned with regarding the statement. Just because they don't resign with us doesn't mean they were a bad pick. With the players I mentioned, they've been in the league longer than the average and have contributed in a myriad of ways. If you want to use the sort of logic; any team who had a player who contributed for them solidly for four years (average rookie contract length) and then left would end up being a wasted pick. All right and guess what -- that is what happens with most free agents; they end up going to another team. Only the best of the best get locked up long-term.


If they were not good enough to play here then we should have not signed them and IF the left as a FA like Hayward did we failed at re-signing them.. another epic failure..

I really don't understand this because of how poor the grammar is. Honestly, what are you trying to convey here? Yep, letting Hayward go in hindsight was a mistake; but at the time Denver was able to get five defensive line players who played decently for Denver for several years as opposed to what it would have cost to re-sign Hayward. Quantity over Quality doesn't always work; but it was a stop-gap measure for the Broncos for a few seasons before they opted to finally draft defensive ends early in 2007; which didn't seem to solve the problem. (Unfortunately.)


as for were they mikes fault because our scouting staff suck YES.. cause he hired them.. was the scouting staff good and mike fell in love with a player like al Davis does based on speed or what ever who knows but the buck stopped on HIS deck.. he was an epic failure as a GM..

For starters, Mike didn't hire scouts and let me be the first to let you know that over Shanahan's tenure here as a head coach; he was going off of the reports from scouts who had been here for quite some time; in fact -- DeStifano has been with the Broncos scouting for almost three decades. Scouts have come and gone; it's a fluid operation in the NFL -- but for you to state these are guys Mike hired coupled with your other delusions are blatant lies -- so really, you should just stop.

My grandfather had a good saying for this, "You are talking out your ass because your mouth knows better." -- Well, maybe it doesn't -- but this is a pile of horseshit, and I suspect the others here on the forum will realize that as well. You are only as good as the people below you, and if Mike was getting bad scouting reports from player personnel, that isn't his fault.


The reason I brought these players up was to show that mike was held to a different standard than Josh and Xman seem to be..

I'm not seeing the different standard. Fans expect whoever is in charge to draft good players. Period.


You build your team via the draft but mike did not other thatn OLINE that no one else wanted or at LB the rest of the DAFT choices for the most parts were total busts.. that were wasted.. Mayock could have done a better job..

I can't really decipher this language; but Denver drafted offensive lineman that fit the blocking scheme that was ran here. That doesn't mean other people didn't want them -- they went for the players they felt best worked in the ZBS; which were typically smaller, more athletic lineman. More teams these days are employing such a system -- which actually speaks volumes for Mike and the things he was able to do here. We seemed to have some pretty decent linebackers (and even you discredit him there saying they weren't hits because "they were first day talents"), and were able to pick up some other talented offensive weapons along the way.

Mike wasn't a perfect drafter, nobody is. You talk about people needing to lower their expectations around here; yet you held the highest in regards to Mike out of anyone that has ever posted on the forums -- and even when he is not with the team, you have an incessant need to continue pissing on him.

Get over it, grow up and let it go.

Lonestar
06-01-2009, 07:41 PM
Actually, you don't care because if you actually did the research, you'd come to find out that it is pretty much the same league wide; which would defeat any argument you've had against Mike about him being the worst drafter in the world; and would consequently make your cute little "daft" statements have less meaning. More or less, you not caring is your way of being able to justify the bullshit you speak with really no leg to stand on.

I believe there was indeed a study done by a reputable source that did indeed show the Broncos if not the worst drafting team one of the worst for a time frame through 2000- through 2005 it was widely reported on this forum not his past NOV-DEC but 2007 IIRC.. It did indeed restate what I have been saying for ever..

So therefore IF you want to look it up do so if not time to realize some of us are not idiots like you like to try to make us out to be..


There is a lot to be concerned with regarding the statement. Just because they don't resign with us doesn't mean they were a bad pick. With the players I mentioned, they've been in the league longer than the average and have contributed in a myriad of ways. If you want to use the sort of logic; any team who had a player who contributed for them solidly for four years (average rookie contract length) and then left would end up being a wasted pick. All right and guess what -- that is what happens with most free agents; they end up going to another team. Only the best of the best get locked up long-term.

If you are drafting consistently your day one picks should be starters bar none perhaps not year one but by year three unless YOU (mikey) have epically failed in the daft this should be happening.. If you can;t find two starters talent within the top three picks which for the most cases should be the top 100 players in college ball your doing something really wrong.. that is 2 out of 3 picks.. not 3 of 3.. for the most part mickey is most of those years got NONE.. sure he played ashley, foster and few of the others. but they were not resigned plain and simple.. had they not had a day one contract on them I'm guessing in most cases they would not have even started.. Wasted draft choices for BUILDING your base players..

In most of those case IF the player moved on they were soon dumped...

I really don't understand this because of how poor the grammar is. Honestly, what are you trying to convey here? Yep, letting Hayward go in hindsight was a mistake; but at the time Denver was able to get five defensive line players who played decently for Denver for several years as opposed to what it would have cost to re-sign Hayward. Quantity over Quality doesn't always work; but it was a stop-gap measure for the Broncos for a few seasons before they opted to finally draft defensive ends early in 2007; which didn't seem to solve the problem. (Unfortunately.)

as for heyward had mikey got off the dime before his break out season most thought he could have been had for a third of what he got.. most of those folks I talk about were at mania..


Sure by the time mike found time as GM/VP/HC/coffe maker he was to late to talk to his agent, the season was done and we could not longer afford him..


For starters, Mike didn't hire scouts and let me be the first to let you know that over Shanahan's tenure here as a head coach; he was going off of the reports from scouts who had been here for quite some time; in fact -- DeStifano has been with the Broncos scouting for almost three decades. Scouts have come and gone; it's a fluid operation in the NFL -- but for you to state these are guys Mike hired coupled with your other delusions are blatant lies -- so really, you should just stop.

perhaps many of those scouts were indeed there before mike I can;t speak for hat.. I do know they reported to HIM the buck stopped on mike desk not at the scouts desk therefore he failed..

My grandfather had a good saying for this, "You are talking out your ass because your mouth knows better." -- Well, maybe it doesn't -- but this is a pile of horseshit, and I suspect the others here on the forum will realize that as well. You are only as good as the people below you, and if Mike was getting bad scouting reports from player personnel, that isn't his fault.


apologize for a failed HC all you want. I will not.. he dug his own grave and perhaps Josh is also.. But I gave mike 3-4 years after his SB days before I jumped into his lap and started making sounds that he needed a professional GM for all of the reasons stated above.. Now I'll give Josh the same consideration..

I'm not seeing the different standard. Fans expect whoever is in charge to draft good players. Period.


but they did not while mikey was here? the double standard is epic..


I can't really decipher this language; but Denver drafted offensive lineman that fit the blocking scheme that was ran here. That doesn't mean other people didn't want them -- they went for the players they felt best worked in the ZBS; which were typically smaller, more athletic lineman. More teams these days are employing such a system -- which actually speaks volumes for Mike and the things he was able to do here. We seemed to have some pretty decent linebackers (and even you discredit him there saying they weren't hits because "they were first day talents"), and were able to pick up some other talented offensive weapons along the way.

Mike wasn't a perfect drafter, nobody is. You talk about people needing to lower their expectations around here; yet you held the highest in regards to Mike out of anyone that has ever posted on the forums -- and even when he is not with the team, you have an incessant need to continue pissing on him.

Get over it, grow up and let it go.


I for one have got over failed denver seasons for the better part of 45 years..

and I grew up 50 some odd years ago.. thanks for your concern..

I will let it go when Y'all stop acting like mikey was the greatest thing since slice bread and start realizing in a dual role how bad he was for this franchise... yes he won some games as a COACH but he would have won alot more if he would have had a prime time GM in here.. like the guys in INDY or BAL


sorry if my grammar is not to your standard I'll talk to my second grade teacher Mrs King about that..:laugh:

MOtorboat
06-01-2009, 07:45 PM
I for one have got over failed denver seasons for the better part of 45 years..

and I grew up 50 some odd years ago.. thanks for your concern..

I will let it go when Y'all stop acting like mikey was the greatest thing since slice bread and start realizing in a dual role how bad he was for this franchise... yes he won some games as a COACH but he would have won alot more if he would have had a prime time GM in here.. like the guys in INDY or BAL


sorry if my grammar is not to your standard I'll talk to my second grade teacher Mrs King about that..:laugh:

Dude...he's gone...no one is acting like he's God. I've been one of the biggest proponents of the move since it has been made, so spare me the "When y'all let it go" crap. Draft analysis has to come with a comparison. So, if you are going to repeatedly post that same list without any sort of comparison, it means nothing. If you "read somewhere," then please, cite the source.


If you are drafting consistently your day one picks should be starters bar none

When you make these statements, you need to back them up by comparing success rates for every NFL team. If you can't, your argument holds little water.

Sorry, but that's the truth.

Lonestar
06-01-2009, 08:00 PM
Dude...he's gone...no one is acting like he's God. I've been one of the biggest proponents of the move since it has been made, so spare me the "When y'all let it go" crap. Draft analysis has to come with a comparison. So, if you are going to repeatedly post that same list without any sort of comparison, it means nothing. If you "read somewhere," then please, cite the source.



When you make these statements, you need to back them up by comparing success rates for every NFL team. If you can't, your argument holds little water.

Sorry, but that's the truth.


well it was debated on this forum Nov-DEC 2007 or so.. and then quoted by another poster when this same argument came up 6-7 months ago.. it is out there for y'all to see if you wish to research it.. I'm pure in MY heart about it so Know I am correct..

I will comment whenever I so desire about how bad mikeys tarck record was whether someone else was worse I could care less.

YOU JUST need to look at that short day one list to see how many wasted picks we had.. you MO can't not say that THE VAST majority of them were stellar picks not turthfully or with a straight face....

Perhaps a Hayward maybe kennedy but past that is was scrub ville..


And BTW unless I quoted you unless you have a guilty conscience the "Y'all" comments were not directed at YOU..

MOtorboat
06-01-2009, 08:07 PM
well it was debated on this forum Nov-DEC 2007 or so.. and then quoted by another poster when this same argument came up 6-7 months ago.. it is out there for y'all to see if you wish to research it.. I'm pure in MY heart about it so Know I am correct..

I will comment whenever I so desire about how bad mikeys tarck record was whether someone else was worse I could care less.

YOU JUST need to look at that short day one list to see how many wasted picks we had.. you MO can't not say that THE VAST majority of them were stellar picks not turthfully or with a straight face....

Perhaps a Hayward maybe kennedy but past that is was scrub ville..


And BTW unless I quoted you unless you have a guilty conscience the "Y'all" comments were not directed at YOU..

I can't believe you actually remember the date. That's kind of sad, actually. No offense.

Don't bullshit me, as I've been one to point this out to you numerous times. And I'm still looking for some sort of justification or verification that the "busts" are either worse than, or about the same as, other NFL teams. Until you prove this, you're going to receive the same response from me, and others, when you post said list.

Again...it may be bad. I don't really know, because you can't provide a comprehensive comparison between other teams and Denver. I have told you in the past that I suspect it to be subpar, but there's no way to tell. One article doesn't prove your point, btw.

Lonestar
06-01-2009, 08:15 PM
I can't believe you actually remember the date. That's kind of sad, actually. No offense.

Don't bullshit me, as I've been one to point this out to you numerous times. And I'm still looking for some sort of justification or verification that the "busts" are either worse than, or about the same as, other NFL teams. Until you prove this, you're going to receive the same response from me, and others, when you post said list.

Again...it may be bad. I don't really know, because you can't provide a comprehensive comparison between other teams and Denver. I have told you in the past that I suspect it to be subpar, but there's no way to tell. One article doesn't prove your point, btw.


well since your unwilling to look it up here is one of the reports I saw.. enjoy reading...



posted by Boss 04-14-2008, 11:31 AM

Pro Football Weekly has done an analysis of the last five draft classes, and here's the tail end of the article.

"Six teams have not drafted a Pro Bowler in the past five seasons — the Packers, Buccaneers, Panthers, Broncos, Raiders and Dolphins. Every one of those clubs but Oakland had head coaches during that five-year period with significant, if not complete, control over personnel. That approach would appear to be a really bad idea and suggests that the Dolphins and Falcons, in first seeking strong front-office guys before hiring head coaches, were moving in the right direction.

While I take no satisfaction in anointing the worst personnel department in the NFL over the past five seasons — at least as it relates to college scouting and talent evaluation — the Broncos are the winners/losers in a rout. Despite being tied for the seventh-most total draft choices (26) from 2003-05, the Broncos are last in players drafted over that span who were still on the roster (four), 31st in players drafted the past five years who were still on the roster (13), and last in starters drafted between 2003-05 (one) and over the past five seasons (five).

The Broncos are tied for 25th in undrafted rookie free agents to make a roster, but only the Saints, Bucs and 49ers have fewer. Mike Shanahan has earned his reputation as one of the best coaches in the NFL, but it would appear to have been well past the time for him to find someone else to oversee Denver’s personnel department. The Broncos fired longtime GM Ted Sundquist in March, but most observers believe Shanahan has had a much greater role in the team’s personnel decisions than Sundquist ever did."

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW...ntro.htm#teams

OUCH!


http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12785&highlight=draft


took me all of 45 seconds to find it doing a search for draft a year or more ago..



read it and weep

silkamilkamonico
06-01-2009, 08:16 PM
Not real sure what you guys are debating, but at one point 2 years ago Denver was among the lowest teams in the NFL that consisted of players they drafted on the roster. It was low, something like 17% or low to that extent. The highest? New England, with something like 65% of the players on their roster they drafted. Indianapolis and Pittsburgh were both among the top 5 at that time, and I'm sure still are.

That statistic alone was enough to convince me what a horrible run Shanahan had with drafts. Every team hits and every team misses, but when you can't even field a roster with a quarter of the players you drafted over the last 5-10 years, something's wrong.

Shanahan had to overpay in free agency just to field teams, some that didn't work, and then probably wondered why Denver had $20 million in dead cap space, which was also among the tops in the NFL.

MOtorboat
06-01-2009, 08:19 PM
well since your unwilling to look it up here is one of the reports I saw.. enjoy reading...



http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12785&highlight=draft


took me all of 45 seconds to find it doing a search for draft a year or more ago..



read it and weep

So PFW and Pro Bowl appearance are your sources?

That's pretty funny.

BTW, it's over. Get over it.

Lonestar
06-01-2009, 08:21 PM
Not real sure what you guys are debating, but at one point 2 years ago Denver was among the lowest teams in the NFL that consisted of players they drafted on the roster. It was low, something like 17% or low to that extent. The highest? New England, with something like 65% of the players on their roster they drafted. Indianapolis and Pittsburgh were both among the top 5 at that time, and I'm sure still are.

That statistic alone was enough to convince me what a horrible run Shanahan had with drafts. Every team hits and every team misses, but when you can't even field a roster with a quarter of the players you drafted over the last 5-10 years, something's wrong.

Shanahan had to overpay in free agency just to field teams, some that didn't work, and then probably wondered why Denver had $20 million in dead cap space, which was also among the tops in the NFL.


great post :salute:
but, but, but you better be able to quote a source or the mikey lovers will jump on you.. for not having a link..

silkamilkamonico
06-01-2009, 08:24 PM
great post :salute:
but, but, but you better be able to quote a source or the mikey lovers will jump on you.. for not having a link..

I know people want sources and I can't find one for that. But I know what I saw, and it was a glaring enough statistic for me to spend about 3 minutes listening to the statistic intriguingly. It was during a game and they were discussing the correlation about teams that are consistently in the playoffs and teams that weren't, and it all had to do with drafting players that contribute and make the team. Denver just happened to be among the bottom 5.

Lonestar
06-01-2009, 08:24 PM
So PFW and Pro Bowl appearance are your sources?

That's pretty funny.

BTW, it's over. Get over it.


no there was another source that was out there during the NOV maybe OCT 2007 time frame.. but this one works also..


Yes it has been over now for almost 6 months praise the Lord and pass the Ammo.

BUT IF someone is going to jump on Josh for doing something that mikey did guess what this stuff gets drug out of the closet as a reminder that mikey was not Mr wonderful either..

MOtorboat
06-01-2009, 08:25 PM
no there was another source that was out there during the NOV maybe OCT 2007 time frame.. but this one works also..


Yes it has been over now for almost 6 months praise the Lord and pass the Ammo.

BUT IF someone is going to jump on Josh for doing something that mikey did guess what this stuff gets drug out of the closet as a reminder that mikey was not Mr wonderful either..

Can we let him coach a game before comparing the two. Thanks. :rolleyes:

Lonestar
06-01-2009, 08:26 PM
I know people want sources and I can't find one for that. But I know what I saw, and it was a glaring enough statistic for me to spend about 3 minutes listening to the statistic intriguingly. It was during a game and they were discussing the correlation about teams that are consistently in the playoffs and teams that weren't, and it all had to do with drafting players that contribute and make the team. Denver just happened to be among the bottom 5.


Hey I believe you it is the mike/jay lovers that will not.. they have real selective memories..:salute:

MOtorboat
06-01-2009, 08:30 PM
Hey I believe you it is the mike/jay lovers that will not.. they have real selective memories..:salute:

I know the intent of this post, and while you'll hide behind the fact that it wasn't "directed" specifcally at me, I know that it was...and you should remember that I'm neither of those things.

Mmmkay.

Lonestar
06-01-2009, 11:07 PM
I know the intent of this post, and while you'll hide behind the fact that it wasn't "directed" specifcally at me, I know that it was...and you should remember that I'm neither of those things.

Mmmkay.

It was not directed at you, unless you have a guilty conscience you should be able to sleep well tonight..

as for asking for links by now you should know better I'll have them some where .. I rarely state something I can not back up with cold hard facts..


I got caught once making what I thought was a factual statement on mania and since then I have always had the data to support my facts or I will not state it..

Sleep well..

rcsodak
06-02-2009, 12:43 AM
That's fine, but you can't call him a bad drafter if you don't somehow make a comparison to other teams. It's just not possible to do.

I could feasibly show you that the Pittsburgh Steelers were terrible drafters, if I didn't have to compare them to anyone.

I for one would like to see that, Mo.

Especially Pitt...since they don't really prescribe to the same drafting psychology as most other teams. They tend to purposely draft players to sit on the bench for 1-2yrs, so when older players want too much money or are long in the tooth, the younger, hungrier guys can jump in with both feet.

Pm me when you're done, so I don't miss it.

TIA

Requiem / The Dagda
06-02-2009, 12:48 AM
I rarely state something I can not back up with cold hard facts.

You mean, like Mike getting to hire scouts regardless of the fact that guys like DiStefano were here oh. . . about 13 years before Mike even had a coaching job with us and that he does not get to hire scouts?

Lonestar
06-02-2009, 02:52 AM
You mean, like Mike getting to hire scouts regardless of the fact that guys like DiStefano were here oh. . . about 13 years before Mike even had a coaching job with us and that he does not get to hire scouts?


Was mike in charge as VP of football operations?

If so he was responsible of his employees.. Do not know how you'd miss that unless you have never been anything but the bottom of a personnel chart..

You see the guy at the top has either hired everyone below or read their job descriptions and did or read Evals on them.. If he signed off on them he said they were good and therefore is responsible for them.. He could have fired them any any time but did not..

give up while you are really behind..

broncfn90
06-02-2009, 11:26 AM
awesome now we are pissing off now the only bright spot on our offense Marshall.... god i love being a bronco fan right now

NightTrainLayne
06-02-2009, 11:32 AM
awesome now we are pissing off now the only bright spot on our offense Marshall.... god i love being a bronco fan right now

We are pissing HIM off?

Wow, that's certainly an interesting way to look at it.

BigDaddyBronco
06-02-2009, 11:39 AM
We are pissing HIM off?

Wow, that's certainly an interesting way to look at it.
C'mon NTL, anytime one of your good players asks for anything you give it to them. Isn't that the best way to run a franchise?

roomemp
06-02-2009, 12:02 PM
awesome now we are pissing off now the only bright spot on our offense Marshall.... god i love being a bronco fan right now

I agree.....Our whole offense sucks, Especially that offense line of ours :tsk:

Requiem / The Dagda
06-02-2009, 02:19 PM
Was mike in charge as VP of football operations?

That does not mean that he gets to hire scouts; that'd be the man in charge. Furthermore, you continue to blatantly ignore that a lot of the scouts that were with the Broncos through Mike's time as coach were here before he was -- therefore he couldn't have hired them.

Lonestar
06-02-2009, 03:06 PM
That does not mean that he gets to hire scouts; that'd be the man in charge. Furthermore, you continue to blatantly ignore that a lot of the scouts that were with the Broncos through Mike's time as coach were here before he was -- therefore he couldn't have hired them.



what do you not get he was in charge he could have fired ANYONE in the Broncos football organization but PAT..

the scouts ultimately reported to HIM.. they were under his umbrella..

and please do not tell me that mike did not approve of everything that fell under the football portion of that franchise..

you got your ass handed to you on the bad drafting stuff, stop nit picking over the rest of this stuff and let it go..

mike was in charge ..

Requiem / The Dagda
06-02-2009, 03:12 PM
you got your ass handed to you on the bad drafting stuff, stop nit picking over the rest of this stuff and let it go.

Please explain (in clear and coherent English); because I am on record being a strong opponent and critic of Mike's drafting. I already told you which parts I disagreed with you on (the responsibility aspect and bust rate league-wide) and I stated long before that article ever came out from PFT that Sundquist was likely on his way out. Hence the introduction sentence to the opening of that thread.

topscribe
06-02-2009, 04:39 PM
Grammar police sighting!! :eek:

-----

rcsodak
06-04-2009, 10:57 PM
That does not mean that he gets to hire scouts; that'd be the man in charge. Furthermore, you continue to blatantly ignore that a lot of the scouts that were with the Broncos through Mike's time as coach were here before he was -- therefore he couldn't have hired them.

Jr's right....

...quit already! :lol:


So he can't fire them, since he didn't hire them??? :laugh:

rcsodak
06-07-2009, 11:17 PM
I can't believe you actually remember the date. That's kind of sad, actually. No offense.

Don't bullshit me, as I've been one to point this out to you numerous times. And I'm still looking for some sort of justification or verification that the "busts" are either worse than, or about the same as, other NFL teams. Until you prove this, you're going to receive the same response from me, and others, when you post said list.

Again...it may be bad. I don't really know, because you can't provide a comprehensive comparison between other teams and Denver. I have told you in the past that I suspect it to be subpar, but there's no way to tell. One article doesn't prove your point, btw.

LMAO!

So now we have to have a plethora of quotes/links/articles?

You're as bad as the government! :lol: