On QB Brock Osweiler, Broncos' John Elway gives strong endorsement

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Broncos fan "David from Los Angeles" waited through an hour of questions before getting a chance Tuesday morning to talk directly to John Elway and John Fox as the Broncos' bosses held a conference call with season ticket holders.

But really, David had been waiting nearly 30 years for Elway.

"While we never personally met, Mr. Elway, in 1983 when I was nine years old, you were on your way into the locker room walking from the outside of the stadium. While I didn't get an autograph, I did reach out and touch your pant leg," David said, eliciting a hearty laugh from Elway on the other end of the line.


rest - including - Among the highlights from the call:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_20628978/qb-brock-osweiler-broncos-john-elway-gives-strong

[Superchop 7]

Im surprised he didnt gush over Hanie while he is at it.

[Cugel]

Elway clearly is stating that Osweiler is his choice as the Broncos QB of the future. I have no idea if that is going to work out or not.

He obviously sees something in Osweiler that other teams didn't. But, it only takes one team to take a guy and develop him. And if that works out, then you've got a starting QB for the next 5 years or so.

I've pointed out elsewhere that the odds of Osweiler ever becoming an elite NFL QB after being drafted late in the 2nd round are pretty poor. Elway is trying to beat the odds rather than wait and use a top 5 pick on a QB and THEN develop him.

In short, he's trying to cut corners. Occasionally that works out. Matt Schaub is an example. (You really can't count Aaron Rogers who was drafted at #24 of the first round).

I don't want to say it can't happen here because it could. :noidea:

[jhildebrand]

At one point Tim Tebow had the same positive outlook and optimisim surrounding him. At one point he was our QBOTF. As well as Cutler and Griese and Maddox.

It's all hot air until the kid hits the field.

[Ravage!!!]

At one point Tim Tebow had the same positive outlook and optimisim surrounding him. At one point he was our QBOTF. As well as Cutler and Griese and Maddox.

It's all hot air until the kid hits the field.

Tim wasn't looked upon as the QBOTF by most, just the most vocal. ( not sure anyone ever really believed in Maddox)

[chazoe60]

Elway clearly is stating that Osweiler is his choice as the Broncos QB of the future. I have no idea if that is going to work out or not.

He obviously sees something in Osweiler that other teams didn't. But, it only takes one team to take a guy and develop him. And if that works out, then you've got a starting QB for the next 5 years or so.

I've pointed out elsewhere that the odds of Osweiler ever becoming an elite NFL QB after being drafted late in the 2nd round are pretty poor. Elway is trying to beat the odds rather than wait and use a top 5 pick on a QB and THEN develop him.

In short, he's trying to cut corners. Occasionally that works out. Matt Schaub is an example. (You really can't count Aaron Rogers who was drafted at #24 of the first round).

I don't want to say it can't happen here because it could. :noidea:

And how the Hell should he go about getting that top 5 pick? I've been a fan my whole life and I can only remember one top 5 pick for the Broncos(Von).

And who are you to say other teams didn't see anything in Brock?

[Ravage!!!]

Elway clearly is stating that Osweiler is his choice as the Broncos QB of the future. I have no idea if that is going to work out or not.

He obviously sees something in Osweiler that other teams didn't. But, it only takes one team to take a guy and develop him. And if that works out, then you've got a starting QB for the next 5 years or so.

I've pointed out elsewhere that the odds of Osweiler ever becoming an elite NFL QB after being drafted late in the 2nd round are pretty poor. Elway is trying to beat the odds rather than wait and use a top 5 pick on a QB and THEN develop him.

In short, he's trying to cut corners. Occasionally that works out. Matt Schaub is an example. (You really can't count Aaron Rogers who was drafted at #24 of the first round).

I don't want to say it can't happen here because it could. :noidea:

The problem with this is, that even becoming a top QB when drafted early in the 1st, is "beating the odds" because there are so few. Hell, Brady, Rodgers and Brees alone ruin the bell curve on that.

But how often has the Broncos drafted in the top 5? Its not that Elway is trying "cut corners".. which I think is a silly comment. Its that we were able to get a QB talent that most likely would be rated a top 1st round pick (not THE top, but towards the top) next year. So is that cutting corners??? :confused: By cutting corners, are you meaning that Elway is somehow trying to do something that no one else has??? :confused:

This statement makes no sense, Cugel. EVERY team in the NFL is trying to get the most value for every pick, in EVERY draft (unless you are McDoosh). If you are trying to say that ANY player that is drafted in the second round has a higher chance of making it over any OTHER player that was drafted in the second round, then I'll call BS.

Of course the odds are against him being Elite, or even tops in the NFL. Look how many TOP drafted QBs haven't made it, either. Saying the odds are against him is like saying "the sky is blue when the sun shines."

[Northman]

He obviously sees something in Osweiler that other teams didn't.

This is incorrect. Do you have a link that states no other team was interested in Osweiler? I would like to see it if you do. Brock was slated as a 2nd round pick whether Denver took him or not. There is nothing to indicate that had Denver passed on him that another team wouldnt have taken him.

As to the article, this pretty much summed up my thoughts when people kept saying they should wait a year or two to find "their" guy.


"We are set for the future, and he's our guy for the future. Sometimes you have to sacrifice the short term for the long term to draft a guy that you believe can be that next guy for you, and that's Brock Osweiler."

[topscribe]

Im surprised he didnt gush over Hanie while he is at it.
Well, Elway didn't gush over Hanie. He didn't gush over Tebow. He didn't gush over Orton.

He did, however, gush over Peyton Manning.

It doesn't appear to me that Elway is just tossing out platitudes . . .

[bcbronc]

I think cug is on to something. Elway should have just waited until Manning retired and simply lost more games than every other team the next season. I know the franchise has never had the first overall pick, but it can't be that hard to get. Then use it to draft the next Elway/Manning/Luck. Boom, franchise QB.

If we end up getting the next George/Couch/Carr, well no big deal...just do it all again the next season.

This plan is so simple and guarantees a franchise QB...can't figure out why all teams don't institute this strategy!

[The Glue Factory]

I think cug is on to something. Elway should have just waited until Manning retired and simply lost more games than every other team the next season. I know the franchise has never had the first overall pick, but it can't be that hard to get. Then use it to draft the next Elway/Manning/Luck. Boom, franchise QB.

If we end up getting the next George/Couch/Carr, well no big deal...just do it all again the next season.

This plan is so simple and guarantees a franchise QB...can't figure out why all teams don't institute this strategy!


Because the fans would revolt after just 2 iterations. Unless your Cleveland, Tampa, Detroit and maybe Seattle.

[Jsteve01]

This is incorrect. Do you have a link that states no other team was interested in Osweiler? I would like to see it if you do. Brock was slated as a 2nd round pick whether Denver took him or not. There is nothing to indicate that had Denver passed on him that another team wouldnt have taken him.

As to the article, this pretty much summed up my thoughts when people kept saying they should wait a year or two to find "their" guy.

And again I saw multiple reports that said if Brock had been able to go at the combine he probably would have been a first rounder. Gil Brandt has been evaluating college talent for a long long time and he thought Brock was a late first rounder after his pro day.

[Cugel]

At one point Tim Tebow had the same positive outlook and optimisim surrounding him. At one point he was our QBOTF. As well as Cutler and Griese and Maddox.

It's all hot air until the kid hits the field.

Which won't be for the next 3 years hopefully!

[Cugel]

And again I saw multiple reports that said if Brock had been able to go at the combine he probably would have been a first rounder. Gil Brandt has been evaluating college talent for a long long time and he thought Brock was a late first rounder after his pro day.

That really depends a LOT on what other teams were drafting late in the first round and whether they needed a QB or not.

Really, some teams liked Brock Osweiler and a lot more didn't. It only takes ONE team to fall in love with a player to grab him.

But, most mocks had him going in the 2nd round or 3rd round. If he were a projected late 1st or early 2nd round pick the Broncos would have grabbed him at #36 rather than #57 because Elway clearly wanted him as the only QB in this year's draft that they both had a chance to draft AND were interested in drafting (i.e. excluding Luck & RGIII).

He went near the top of his expected range -- late 2nd to early 3rd round.

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by bcbronc View Post
I think cug is on to something. Elway should have just waited until Manning retired and simply lost more games than every other team the next season. I know the franchise has never had the first overall pick, but it can't be that hard to get. Then use it to draft the next Elway/Manning/Luck. Boom, franchise QB.

If we end up getting the next George/Couch/Carr, well no big deal...just do it all again the next season.

This plan is so simple and guarantees a franchise QB...can't figure out why all teams don't institute this strategy!

Your pointless sarcasm only reflects your reading deficiency. :coffee:

I already explained why teams don't ever do that in this very thread.

Their GM and coaches get FIRED just like Bill Polian and the entire Colts coaching staff!

So, are the Colts better off with Andrew Luck or would they have been better off going 7-9 and drafting Brock Osweiler in the 2nd round?

Well, try and tell me they'd be better off with Osweiler than Luck! :rolleyes:

But, is Colts management better off? Only if they like early retirement!

So, NO! No NFL team will ever deliberately tank a season.

And just because some teams draft JaWalrus Russell or Vince Young #1 overall doesn't mean that you can get an elite QB in the 2nd round! You need BOTH a top 10 (probably top 5 in some years) draft pick, PLUS some luck to get an elite QB.

Or else you need a one in 100 million winning Powerball Lotto ticket and get lucky enough to draft Tom Brady in the 6th round. Something like that hasn't happened in the last 12 years. At ALL.

But, the fact that most teams can't find an elite QB doesn't change the fact that you NEED an elite QB to win the SB! And your chances of drafting one in the 2nd round aren't red hot.

And YES your chances ARE a lot better if you take one of the top 2 QBs in the draft.

[bcbronc]

Well then considering the long odds no matter when a QB is drafted, surely you can appreciate taking a guy when you see "something" in him. And no doubt you also agree that the best way to improve your odds is to give the kid 2-3 years to learn under two HOFer QBs.

All things considered, I'd expect you to be fully behind this move. So what are you complaining about again? :coffee:

[Jsteve01]

Your pointless sarcasm only reflects your reading deficiency. :coffee:

I already explained why teams don't ever do that in this very thread.

Their GM and coaches get FIRED just like Bill Polian and the entire Colts coaching staff!

So, are the Colts better off with Andrew Luck or would they have been better off going 7-9 and drafting Brock Osweiler in the 2nd round?

Well, try and tell me they'd be better off with Osweiler than Luck! :rolleyes:

But, is Colts management better off? Only if they like early retirement!

So, NO! No NFL team will ever deliberately tank a season.

And just because some teams draft JaWalrus Russell or Vince Young #1 overall doesn't mean that you can get an elite QB in the 2nd round! You need BOTH a top 10 (probably top 5 in some years) draft pick, PLUS some luck to get an elite QB.

Or else you need a one in 100 million winning Powerball Lotto ticket and get lucky enough to draft Tom Brady in the 6th round. Something like that hasn't happened in the last 12 years. At ALL.

But, the fact that most teams can't find an elite QB doesn't change the fact that you NEED an elite QB to win the SB! And your chances of drafting one in the 2nd round aren't red hot.

And YES your chances ARE a lot better if you take one of the top 2 QBs in the draft.

or you need my perfect storm scenario in which you draft a raw kid with tons of upside and heart and allow him to watch the best and most prepared qb in the league for about three years while refining his game. The thing is that This type of situation doesn't happen very often. Typically 2nd and 3rd rounders have potential but they get forced into action too early and flame out. If this thing goes as planned that doesn't happen with Brock.

[Simple Jaded]

lt's just a 2nd round pick, it's not like they traded a 2, 3 and a 4 to get Osweiler. I didn't want Denver to use a high draft pick on a QB either, but now l am most excited about that pick. The way l look at it, considering the Broncos traded up to get Hillman chances are the Broncos would have taken him at 57, if not Osweiler, and drafted somebody else fans didn't want in the 3rd.......

[jhildebrand]

Tim wasn't looked upon as the QBOTF by most, just the most vocal. ( not sure anyone ever really believed in Maddox)

I'm just saying that Josh McDaniels initial interviews and comments on Tebow were almost identical in nature. He was the QB to be groomed and trained and was the great white hope. Osweiler is too. Like McDaniels before him, Elway may be made or made out the door for the Osweiler move.

It's all BS and hype until the kid actually hits the field and does something.

[Northman]

Tebow was a bigger project than Osweiler though. But, your correct. Brock will be tied to John just like Tebow was tied to McDaniels.

[bcbronc]

So if Manning wins us the next two Superbowls, retires and Brock sucks, Elway's legacy will be he drafted a bust at 57?

[Northman]

So if Manning wins us the next two Superbowls, retires and Brock sucks, Elway's legacy will be he drafted a bust at 57?

Of course not, but if Brock doesnt turn out the way that John predicts than it will be a blemish on his record. The amount of the blemish depends on what Manning does. If we dont win anything and Brock turns out sucks it will be a huge blemish on his legacy.

[claymore]

I'm just saying that Josh McDaniels initial interviews and comments on Tebow were almost identical in nature. He was the QB to be groomed and trained and was the great white hope. Osweiler is too. Like McDaniels before him, Elway may be made or made out the door for the Osweiler move.

It's all BS and hype until the kid actually hits the field and does something.

I understand the point, and Im not high on Osweiler, but McD didnt know his ass from a hole in the ground. Elway has much more clout, and leniancy IMO. I trust his smooth, patience and judgement.

[turftoad]

Tebow was a bigger project than Osweiler though. But, your correct. Brock will be tied to John just like Tebow was tied to McDaniels.

I don't believe so. McDoosh moved into first round to grab Tebow, Brock was a second rounder. No big deal. If Elway would have moved up into the first round for a QB it would be a different story.

[Cugel]

The problem with this is, that even becoming a top QB when drafted early in the 1st, is "beating the odds" because there are so few. Hell, Brady, Rodgers and Brees alone ruin the bell curve on that.

But how often has the Broncos drafted in the top 5? Its not that Elway is trying "cut corners".. which I think is a silly comment. Its that we were able to get a QB talent that most likely would be rated a top 1st round pick (not THE top, but towards the top) next year. So is that cutting corners??? :confused: By cutting corners, are you meaning that Elway is somehow trying to do something that no one else has??? :confused:

This statement makes no sense, Cugel. EVERY team in the NFL is trying to get the most value for every pick, in EVERY draft (unless you are McDoosh). If you are trying to say that ANY player that is drafted in the second round has a higher chance of making it over any OTHER player that was drafted in the second round, then I'll call BS.

Of course the odds are against him being Elite, or even tops in the NFL. Look how many TOP drafted QBs haven't made it, either. Saying the odds are against him is like saying "the sky is blue when the sun shines."

By "cutting corners" I only meant that Elway is trying to keep the Broncos from tanking after Manning retires. He's trying to keep his job by making sure that the Broncos have a backup QB ready to go.

There's nothing wrong with this, except I don't think it is ever likely to work out. I'm not happy with the Osweiler pick, but it WAS only a 2nd rounder. It's certainly NOT going to sink the Broncos!

As for "how do they get a top 5 pick?" That's not hard. How often did the Washington Redskins draft in the top 5? Yet this year they traded a couple of #1 and #2 picks and moved up to #2 with the Rams to grab RGIII.

It's perfectly possible. It's costly of course, but what cost for an elite QB?

The Giants gave up 2 #1's to move up 3 places and get Eli Manning #1 overall from the Chargers. The Chargers got Phillip Rivers & Shawne Merriman among others. The Giants got 2 SB championships.

Giants win that trade.

NO. It's not guaranteed that even the #1 overall pick is going to be any good (see Alex Smith, let alone JaWalrus Russell & Vince Young).

But, NO, you can't expect a late 1st or 2nd round QB to become great.

And NO the "curve" isn't "destroyed" by Brady, Rogers and Brees. Brady was 12 years ago and NO QB taken later than the third round has become even GOOD in the last 12 years. Matt Schaub is the ONLY 3rd round QB who is even a 2nd tier QB, let alone elite.

Rogers was the 2nd QB taken in the draft. He could have gone #1 if the 49ers had more sense. Other teams that could have drafted a QB already had one or didn't want Rogers. So he fell. . . . all the way to #24 of the first round.

#24 is NOT #57. :rolleyes:

As for Brees, he was the #32 pick. Again, not #57, 32. And he was considered "too short." Teams had visions of another Doug Flutie. I suppose that if Elway had been in charge and the Broncos were choosing between Brock Osweiler and Drew Brees, Elway would take Osweiler and babble about his "height advantage." That seems to be a thing with NFL teams.

It's not just that the chances of finding an elite QB in the 2nd round aren't great. Even finding a decent starter in the 2nd round aren't that great.

I can't fault Elway for trying. I can suggest that I don't think it's going to work.

And no, just because there are a lot of first round failures does NOT mean that a second rounder has a BETTER chance or an "even" chance as the "statistics and probability challenged" keep insisting (the fallacy that if you can't accurately determine the probability of a certain pick succeeding or failing that means that "it's all a crap shoot." Wrong!)

A lot of people on these boards seem to have flunked high school math.

[Ravage!!!]

I'm just saying that Josh McDaniels initial interviews and comments on Tebow were almost identical in nature. He was the QB to be groomed and trained and was the great white hope. Osweiler is too. Like McDaniels before him, Elway may be made or made out the door for the Osweiler move.

It's all BS and hype until the kid actually hits the field and does something.

Hardly. The draft pick for Osweiller is NOTHING like the moving BACK into the first for a kid that can't pass. I expect to see every GM and coach make positive comments about every single person they draft. Not only because they picked them, but because its just respectful of the kid being taken.

All that aside, the two picks are NOTHING alike, and Elway's not going to have his career hinge on this one.

[Cugel]

I understand the point, and Im not high on Osweiler, but McD didnt know his ass from a hole in the ground. Elway has much more clout, and leniancy [sic] IMO. I trust his smooth, patience and judgement.

There's certainly that much in support of the Osweiler pick. Elway is obviously a vastly better judge of talent than McMoron who actually preferred Matt Cassel to Jay Cutler, not to mention Kyle Orton and Tebow.

If the Broncos were going to draft a QB this year, which I opposed (I thought they should have waited until next season), then Osweiler was the ONLY possible pick after all.

Luck, RGIII and Tannehill all went top 10. Branden Weeden is 290 years old. Or something. Clearly he can't sit there 3 or 4 years behind Manning before he even STARTS his career.

That left Osweiler as the ONLY possible QB the Broncos could have taken, and they took him exactly where you'd expect him to be drafted. Late 2nd round.

[Ravage!!!]

A lot of people on these boards seem to have flunked high school math.

HOld on a second. YOu are saying that because Rodgers was the 2nd rated QB rated in his draft, but taken at 24, you can't count him. However, even though some rated Os as the 4th best QB in the draft, the fact that he was taken at 57 is a HUGE difference??? Brees was STILL taken in the second round, now matter how you try to twist it, and Brady was taken in the 6th (yes, he's the rarity). Quit changing the categories and numbers to fit your needs.

The point is, we don't know. The draft pick was used for developmental purposes, its been said so by the team. So what? Of course the odds are against him.

But your OWN numbers have shown that QBs taken at ANY place throughout the draft, have a rare chance of becoming a top, "elite", talent.....period. I don't care if he was taken 1st or last in the first round...or taken in the 2nd and third.

The proble with your "no QB that was drafted in the third".... scenario, is the fact that most teams that NEED a QB draft their "starter" For the following season in the first round. Those that draft QBs later, are letting them sit behind current starters. TA DA. We are letting Os sit behind a starter.

Some of the people on these boards don't do much deductive reasoning.

[Ravage!!!]

Tebow was a bigger project than Osweiler though. But, your correct. Brock will be tied to John just like Tebow was tied to McDaniels.

No way. Os was taken in the late second to be a develomental QB to learn behind the biggest FA acquistion ever. No way Elway is tied to Os the same way that McDoosh was for moving back into the first to take the controversial Tebow.

[Nomad]

I understand the point, and Im not high on Osweiler, but McD didnt know his ass from a hole in the ground. Elway has much more clout, and leniancy IMO. I trust his smooth, patience and judgement.

This is what I've told myself as well.

[Chef Zambini]

did that "endorsement" include a "ready to play this year" element/
No, it did NOT !

[MOtorboat]

did that "endorsement" include a "ready to play this year" element/
No, it did NOT !

Just out of curiosity, is there anything on the team you root for that you are happy about?

[Cugel]

The point is, we don't know.

Of course the future cannot be predicted with perfect accuracy. Thus, the probability that Brock Osweiler will ever become an elite or even Good starting QB cannot be known in advance.

That's what statistics is all about; assessing probability in the face of uncertainty. In a strict statistical sense your point is that the sample is small, so the uncertainty is high.

I would suggest that 12 years is a significant amount of time.

Going back to the 2000 draft when Brady was taken #199 overall, 151 QBs have been drafted. Drew Brees was #32. That was the 1st pick of the 2nd round that year. Normally, it is the 32nd pick of the first round. Basically that's a first round pick.

Out of all the 101 QBs taken outside the 1st round, only Matt Schaub is any good. Matt Cassel also became a starter, but he's about to lose his job out there in KC because he sucks.

So, statistics says your chances are about 1%. Deal with it.

[Chef Zambini]

elway is not JMCD
Os is not TT
but the relationship between JE and Os
is exactly like that of JMCD with TT.
both made a similar untimely SACRIFICE of the present in hopes of developing the QB of the future.
both were considered 2-3 year projects coming out of college.
ELWAY just has a far superior "meanwhile' at his disposal, but if PM does go down, JE will have his pants around his ankles.
thats reality.
...and unless brockO does pan out as the FFQB, people will have to wonder why the fixation and urgency when PM could have used more weapons and better defensive teammates in the present.

[Cugel]

Just out of curiosity, is there anything on the team you root for that you are happy about?

Quite a lot actually. Manning. The WRs corps. Miller and Champ and Dumervil (who is my favorite player). Getting two veteran TEs who will be good targets for Manning. Ryan Clady. Getting rid of Andre Goodman and bringing in Mike Adams and Tracy Porter and Drayton Florence to strengthen the secondary this off season.

I don't know about Hillman, but 3rd round was probably the perfect place to get a RB. Not too soon so that you're reaching for a position where you can find talent later in the draft, but not too late so that you totally miss out either.

Picking up a backup CB/KR in the 4th is a good move too. Don't know how it will work out, but that's exactly the way to draft. Some of the undrafted FAs might make the team as well.

This team has a lot of strengths but a few key weaknesses. The off season is the time to strengthen those weaknesses. Some have been addressed (the DBs). Some have been ignored (NT) and MLB.

That pretty much sums it up.

[Ravage!!!]

No its not exactly the same.

Josh moved three picks to move BACK into the first round to take a QB that was rated to be much later....to be rated as a guy that most probably would NOT be a NFL guy... to be rated as a guy that can't throw accurately, and to be a HUGE controversy to begin with.

Os was taken in the second round to sit behind Peyton Manning. There was no signficant "sacrifice" to be made. If he doesn't work out, then he's no different than the majority of QBs in the NFL.

Tebow was taken as a controversy to begin with.

[Cugel]

Of course not, but if Brock doesnt turn out the way that John predicts than it will be a blemish on his record. The amount of the blemish depends on what Manning does. If we dont win anything and Brock turns out sucks it will be a huge blemish on his legacy.

I would suggest that the QB AFTER Brock Osweiler will do more to determine John's legacy.

Even if Peyton Manning doesn't win a SB or come close, every other team in the NFL would have made the same move to sign him and take that chance. You simply can't criticize it (unless you are an unrepentant Teboner). So, if Manning succeeds, John looks like a genius for landing him. If not. . . . :noidea:

And it's not likely that Osweiler will be better than mediocre (statistical probability is for average to crappy).

So, when it's time to upgrade from Osweiler in a few years time, will Elway find another Jay Cutler in the draft or will we wind up with Brian Griese? (Or god forbid, Kyle Boller -- to name a QB who sank a SB franchise and got his SB winning coach fired).

That will probably determine John's fate.

[Ravage!!!]

I would suggest that the QB AFTER Brock Osweiler will do more to determine John's legacy.

Even if Peyton Manning doesn't win a SB or come close, every other team in the NFL would have made the same move to sign him and take that chance. You simply can't criticize it (unless you are an unrepentant Teboner). So, if Manning succeeds, John looks like a genius for landing him. If not. . . . :noidea:

And it's not likely that Osweiler will be better than mediocre (statistical probability is for average to crappy).

So, when it's time to upgrade from Osweiler in a few years time, will Elway find another Jay Cutler in the draft or will we wind up with Brian Griese? (Or god forbid, Kyle Boller).

That will probably determine John's fate.

I agree with this. If QBs are the only thing determining the 'legacy' of which you GM, then its not going to be Os that determines it, its the guy that takes over for the HoF'er. Which is scary, because finding a QB to be your 'man' the YEAR you need it.....is very very hard. Thats why I love that we took Os now. Desperate teams draft a QB purely because "its a need" and will take any player available. We didn't 'Need' a QB, but snagged a guy that could grow to the player, and have him on roster to transition when ready. Which is why I'm glad we didn't wait.

But I'm with Cugel on this one. Os wasn't taken in the first round like Tebow. Its a big difference.

Other than that, I think there was MUCH MUCH more to McDork getting canned than the Tebow pick.

[Rick]

Exactly what team in the legue usually has a backup that can step in and take over if a guy like manning goes down?

[topscribe]

elway is not JMCD
Os is not TT
but the relationship between JE and Os
is exactly like that of JMCD with TT.
both made a similar untimely SACRIFICE of the present in hopes of developing the QB of the future.
both were considered 2-3 year projects coming out of college.
ELWAY just has a far superior "meanwhile' at his disposal, but if PM does go down, JE will have his pants around his ankles.
thats reality.
...and unless brockO does pan out as the FFQB, people will have to wonder why the fixation and urgency when PM could have used more weapons and better defensive teammates in the present.
So, Zam, what QB was available who could pick up the ball and continue at
Peyton's level, were Peyton to go down? The fact of it is, if the Broncos are
to make any significant noise, Peyton will be the reason for it. With Peyton,
the Broncos are given an outside chance at the Super Bowl. Without him, I'm
sure most experts would not give them a chance even at the playoffs. If he
goes down, then the Broncos are sunk, no matter what available QB is behind
him.

Should Elway not have gone after Peyton, then? Should he not have drafted
Osweiler? If Peyton goes down, what other player available at #57 would
have facilitated the Broncos' run at the playoffs?

The problem is, we're playing "what-ifs" here. We're hoping against hope that
Peyton does not go down. We're counting on his being able to continue at a
high level for the next two to four years. But one thing is for sure: At the end
of that time, Peyton will be gone. What then? Should we have to endure
another decade of "rebuilding" while we agonize over who occupies that spot
behind center?

That just does not appeal to me. I remember my ecstasy when the Broncos
won their two Super Bowls. However, that did not ease my angst when
Griese tanked. I felt no appeasement as the Broncos went through the next
several years looking for "that" QB. Did you?

That's why I am behind the selection of Osweiler. The guy has talent. A lot
of it. He has time to groom behind Peyton. Then maybe we won't go through
what we have the last twelve years.

[Chef Zambini]

I never suggested that there was somebody out there "at PM's level" that premise was never part of my discussion.
I love when you guys make proclamations, attribute them to me then have a nice arguement about it !
i said, "win games", contribute to the winning.
I think mcnabb can be one of those guys if the need arises mid season.
I think we should have brought kellen moore on board for the v ery same reason.
I already declared MOORE to be a winner if he gets a start this season.
hope that answers your question.

[MOtorboat]

Wait, so you can claim a player will be a winner, but for us to support our argument, we have to have someone on the team, preferably John Elway say he's ready to win for our argument to hold water?

Fail.

In terms of McNabb, he's 6-12 the last two seasons as a starter. What makes you think he could instantly win in Denver if Manning goes down?

[Northman]

I agree with this. If QBs are the only thing determining the 'legacy' of which you GM, then its not going to be Os that determines it, its the guy that takes over for the HoF'er. Which is scary, because finding a QB to be your 'man' the YEAR you need it.....is very very hard. Thats why I love that we took Os now. Desperate teams draft a QB purely because "its a need" and will take any player available. We didn't 'Need' a QB, but snagged a guy that could grow to the player, and have him on roster to transition when ready. Which is why I'm glad we didn't wait.

But I'm with Cugel on this one. Os wasn't taken in the first round like Tebow. Its a big difference.

Other than that, I think there was MUCH MUCH more to McDork getting canned than the Tebow pick.

You overreacted to my comparison.

[Northman]

Wait, so you can claim a player will be a winner, but for us to support our argument, we have to have someone on the team, preferably John Elway say he's ready to win for our argument to hold water?

Fail.

In terms of McNabb, he's 6-12 the last two seasons as a starter. What makes you think he could instantly win in Denver if Manning goes down?

McNabb isnt going to do shit. Its a reason why he isnt on a squad right now.

[jhildebrand]

Josh moved three picks to move BACK into the first round to take a QB that was rated to be much later....to be rated as a guy that most probably would NOT be a NFL guy... to be rated as a guy that can't throw accurately, and to be a HUGE controversy to begin with.


I recall calling that move "giving up a king's ransom" (I hated the trade) and many people told me it wasn't that big of a deal. They further elaborate that it wouldn't even matter if Tebow went on to be successful. Some will argue winning the division and beating the #1 D at home is successful. :noiea:

The problem is what became of those picks traded to Baltimore and if those players became something i.e. Mike Wallace in Pitt.




Os was taken in the second round to sit behind Peyton Manning. There was no signficant "sacrifice" to be made. If he doesn't work out, then he's no different than the majority of QBs in the NFL.

I wouldn't argue with that too much other than to say it depends on who was selected just after Osweiler and if they become something bigger. I say that because it was clear that the entire draft after the Wolfe pick was geared/centered around Os. If Lavonte David, Vinny Curry, or a Dwayne Allen pan out and Os doesn't, it wouldn't be hindsight being 20/20 to say I told you so. Just like it wasn't hindsight when so many of us were upset with the Moreno/Ayers picks when it was clear to go any combo of Orakpo/Matthews/Hood/Maualuga etc...:D




Tebow was taken as a controversy to begin with.

No argument there. :D

[jhildebrand]

The draft pick for Osweiller is NOTHING like the moving BACK into the first for a kid that can't pass.


The picks themselves aren't identical. I was simply implying that the scenario of Elway an his Os comments at this point in time are no different than McD and his Tebow comments. Only time will tell.



All that aside, the two picks are NOTHING alike, and Elway's not going to have his career hinge on this one.


Chances are it wont. But the truth is Elway's fingerprints are all over this deal. He brought in Manning. Made TT go away and brought in Os. You have to look at the whole picture, Rav. If that whole picture is a 4 year old's finger painting and not a picasso, it very well could mean the end of Elway the GM. If Tebow goes on to have continued success in NY and Manning and Os don't have success, then I think very well that could spell the end of him as GM-as it should. Granted this would have to be akin to the ATL Falcons giving up Favre or Tampa giving up Young for that to happen but there are two cases where that happened.

[MOtorboat]

There's no way Elway's Job is hanging on Brock Osweiler, or any future Tebow success.

I'll buy that if the Manning thing bombs, that's on Elway, but if Manning is successful, even if it's just three playoff berths, than Elway's future will not hang on Brock Osweiler or Tebow. That's just bullshit fodder for Tebow lovers who WANT Elway to be tied to Tebow.

[broncobryce]

The picks themselves aren't identical. I was simply implying that the scenario of Elway an his Os comments at this point in time are no different than McD and his Tebow comments. Only time will tell.



Chances are it wont. But the truth is Elway's fingerprints are all over this deal. He brought in Manning. Made TT go away and brought in Os. You have to look at the whole picture, Rav. If that whole picture is a 4 year old's finger painting and not a picasso, it very well could mean the end of Elway the GM. If Tebow goes on to have continued success in NY and Manning and Os don't have success, then I think very well that could spell the end of him as GM-as it should. Granted this would have to be akin to the ATL Falcons giving up Favre or Tampa giving up Young for that to happen but there are two cases where that happened.

If we don't get to the super bowl getting Manning was a waste of time. Should be a fun season to watch regardless.

[Simple Jaded]

Elway's job isn't tied to Manning, Osweiler or Tebow, he's bigger than all three put together. He is the Denver Broncos and it's been that way nearly 3 decades. If it wasn't for Keiser and his lawsuit John Elway would part owner right now, and the Broncos didn't get him to take over the whirlpool of bullshit he took over by telling him his job would hinge on the leagues worst passer. He's got close to owner job security, people don't respect the dynamics involved in just taking the job, this isn't just any former player.

Tebow fans act like Elway replaced Peyton Manning with Tim Tebow instead of the other way around.......

[Simple Jaded]

If we don't get to the super bowl getting Manning was a waste of time. Should be a fun season to watch regardless.

They didn't get to a SB with Griese, Plummer, Cutler, Orton or Tebow, they were a waste of time too.......