Broncos Head To Training Camp With Eleven CBs On Roster: Who Will Make the Cut?

[Cugel]

Right now, with 11 CBs currently on the roster, the Broncos are certainly stocked with CBs, indeed far more CBs than they can possibly take into the 53 man roster.

Obviously the starters are Champ and Tracy Porter, but beyond that there are a lot of question marks. Starters highlighted in Yellow. Probable backups in Orange.

Post your thoughts as to who might make the roster and what impact you see them making this season.

Here's a breakdown from today's Post:

"I don't think you can ever have too many corners with a lot of the multiple-receiver sets that you get (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_20617333/denver-broncos-rookie-omar-bolden-prepared-gain-from) — and we will get with the types of quarterbacks that we have on our schedule this year," Broncos coach John Fox said.

RETURNING BRONCOS

• Champ Bailey: 14th year, starter.

• Tony Carter: Backup and special teams in 2011.

• Chris Harris: Nickel cornerback and special teams in 2011.

• Syd'Quan Thompson: Missed 2011 season with torn Achilles tendon.

• Cassius Vaughn: Backup and special teams the first half of 2011. Spent second half of the season on injured reserve.

FREE-AGENT ACQUISITIONS

• Drayton Florence: Longtime starter signed with Broncos last week after being cut by Buffalo.

• Tracy Porter: Starting right cornerback from New Orleans, only 25 years old.

• Joshua Moore: Played three games for Chicago in 2010.

• Ramzee Robinson: Played for Detroit, Philadelphia and Cleveland from 2007-09.

ROOKIES

• Omar Bolden: Fourth-round draft pick from Arizona State.

• Coryell Judie: Undrafted out of Texas A&M.

First, there were FIVE CBs on the 53 man roster at the start of last season. Of these Champ, Cassius Vaughn and Chris Harris are returning.

The Broncos might keep 6 CBs this year given Fox's attitude, but this is uncertain. In favor of the idea that the Broncos will keep 6 is they need a roster spot for Omar Bolden, who is likely to be the replacement for Eddie Royal as KR/PR.

Bolden is an interesting case. Normally 4th-7th round picks are for special teams and if he can return kicks, he fills a valuable space and despite being very raw from missing his entire senior season, he probably makes the 53 man roster as a Special Teams player. If he doesn't impress as a KR then they will probably try and slip him onto the developmental squad and it's likely they would succeed since nobody would claim him.

If I'm right and the Broncos keep 6 the first obvious thing is that the roster is stocked with veteran CBs. In addition to starters Champ, and FA acquisition Tracy Porter the Broncos also added Drayton Florence, a 32 year old 10 year veteran mostly spent with the Chargers. He would make an adequate Nickel Back unless some younger player is impressive enough to take that spot in the pre-season.

New veterans include Ramzee Robinson has been in the league for 4 seasons now as a backup in Detroit without impressing and Joshua Moore who was out of football in 2011 and is back for a look.

Neither are locks to make the roster though.

That would leave 2 more roster spots for CBs and 8 guys fighting for those spots.

Tony Carter and Chris Harris: I'm not down on Harris, but clearly the Broncos are trying to upgrade from him, hence all the CBs added. I'd not be surprised to see both cut in training camp.

Among Broncos backups, undrafted 2010 FA Cassius Vaughn might be the most interesting. He played decently until he was injured in the 2nd half of last season. He will have an uphill struggle to maintain his roster spot, but there's no reason to think he can't do it.

YOUR thoughts: :welcome:

[BroncoWave]

Here is how I see it.

Locks: Bailey, Porter, Florence

Bubble: Harris, Thompson, Vaughn, Bolden

Slim chance/out: Carter, Moore, Robinson, Judie

Possible Practice Squad: Bolden, Judie

My guess: They keep 6, one of those 4 from the bubble is squeezed out, and Judie goes on the PS.

[tomjonesrocks]

Here is how I see it.

Locks: Bailey, Porter, Florence

Bubble: Harris, Thompson, Vaughn, Bolden

Slim chance/out: Carter, Moore, Robinson, Judie

Possible Practice Squad: Bolden, Judie

My guess: They keep 6, one of those 4 from the bubble is squeezed out, and Judie goes on the PS.

Wow. I'd be disappointed if Bolden didn't make the team outright. I am not as optimistic about Syd coming off an Achilles...

[BroncoWave]

Wow. I'd be disappointed if Bolden didn't make the team outright. I am not as optimistic about Syd coming off an Achilles...

I agree on Bolden, but it's really too early to tell right now. If he's fully healthy and still has that 1st/2nd round talent, I see no reason he won't make the roster outright. I just don't think you can call him a lock right now. I'll have a better idea during camp/preseason.

I certainly don't think he will be cut though. I think worst case they either PS or IR him.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I think Harris has earned a spot on the roster based on last year's play and his versatility (I think he could play FS in a pinch).

For me it's:

Locks: Champ, Porter, Florence, Harris

Inside track: Bolden and either Vaughn or Squid

Cut or PS: everyone else. Supposedly, Judie is a really good return man and if he breaks out in camp he might be able to bump Vaughn/Squid for the 6th spot.

[Cugel]

Cassius Vaughn looked more likely to make the team than Thompson, due to his injury. But, we really don't know who will emerge in training camp.

That will be an interesting battle for 2 roster spots (at most) among 6 guys.

Bolden's not going to make the team as a backup CB. He's too raw since he missed his entire senior season due to injury and the Broncos have lots of veterans with at least several years time in the NFL ahead of him.

So, his chances probably depend on his making the roster as a KR/PR. If he can be a decent one in replacement of Eddie Royal he would make the team.

The Broncos would simply carry one less WR or TE, since that spot last year went to Royal.

[BroncoWave]

I think Harris has earned a spot on the roster based on last year's play and his versatility (I think he could play FS in a pinch).

For me it's:

Locks: Champ, Porter, Florence, Harris

Inside track: Bolden and either Vaughn or Squid

Cut or PS: everyone else. Supposedly, Judie is a really good return man and if he breaks out in camp he might be able to bump Vaughn/Squid for the 6th spot.

I don't see Harris as a lock. Yeah he was ok last year but he at BEST would be the #4 guy and I think a healthy Bolden, Squid, Cassius would push him for that. Seeing as Harris doesn't return kicks, that hurts his chances of latching on. He certainly has a chance to make the roster, but I wouldn't call him an absolute lock.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I don't see Harris as a lock. Yeah he was ok last year but he at BEST would be the #4 guy and I think a healthy Bolden, Squid, Cassius would push him for that. Seeing as Harris doesn't return kicks, that hurts his chances of latching on. He certainly has a chance to make the roster, but I wouldn't call him an absolute lock.

I understand your logic, but the one thing Harris does better than any other CB on the roster not named Champ is TACKLE. Most of the big plays against us last year were short dump off passes to WRs who broke tackles (usually from Goodman) and then it was off to the races. Harris rarely, if ever, missed tackles. Yeah, you could complete some balls against him but rarely was he not right there to bring the receiver down. I saw him make several 1st down saving tackles on 3rd down last year. That's just as important as coverage sometimes. Harris reminds me a lot of D-Will (RIP) in that for a little guy, he was never shy about throwing his head in there and getting dirty tackling guys.

[Cugel]

If Judie can return kicks that means he's probably battling directly against Bolden for a roster spot. It could come down to special teams play. If Judie gets the nod, then I would expect the Broncos to try and put Bolden on the practice squad and give him another try next year.

People who automatically assume that Bolden will make the squad because he was a 4th round pick forget what Shannon Sharpe was told when he came into the league: "You aren't on a scholarship now! Teams cut late round draft picks [4th through 7th] all the time."

So Bolden is certainly NOT guaranteed a roster spot. He's going to have to earn it by becoming the starting KR/PR.

Of course, if he doesn't make it it's rare for players to emerge off the practice squad and become starters the next season but it isn't unknown.

As for Harris versus Thompson, that is going to be one of the key battles in training camp/pre-season.

[NightTerror218]

Champ/Porter/Florence are def on.
Harris/Bolden are def back ups.
Squid is a ST player and I think Jodie will be too for now both returners.
Vaugn will practice squad and so will safties.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

If Judie can return kicks that means he's probably battling directly against Bolden for a roster spot. It could come down to special teams play. If Judie gets the nod, then I would expect the Broncos to try and put Bolden on the practice squad and give him another try next year.

People who automatically assume that Bolden will make the squad because he was a 4th round pick forget what Shannon Sharpe was told when he came into the league: "You aren't on a scholarship now! Teams cut late round draft picks [4th through 7th] all the time."

So Bolden is certainly NOT guaranteed a roster spot. He's going to have to earn it by becoming the starting KR/PR.

Of course, if he doesn't make it it's rare for players to emerge off the practice squad and become starters the next season but it isn't unknown.

As for Harris versus Thompson, that is going to be one of the key battles in training camp/pre-season.

It looked to me from the rookie mini-camp photos that both Judie and Bolden are recovered from their injuries enough to practice (both were out running drills) so I don't know if there's an injury concern with either anymore. Hopefully, these guys come to play and work their asses off for a spot. After seeing Alphonso Smith and Rahim Moore fold like a house of cards under the pressure of competition the last couple seasons, we need guys who are hungry and will do what it takes to earn a spot. That's why I have a soft spot for Harris. He earned his spot last year as an UDFA.

Not to mention, but the war of attrition has already begun. Odds are, one of our "starting" CBs will get nicked before the end of the preaseon which will open a spot for someone else.

[underrated29]

bailey
porter
florence
harris
syd
bolden

judie is practice squad

[I Eat Staples]

Please don't bring Vaughn back, please...

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Please don't bring Vaughn back, please...

Why? Don't you like the fact that he returns every kick no matter what? You're not fond of the offense starting inside the 10 yard line 9/10 times with the 10th being a big return out to midfield? C'mon where's your sense of adventure? ;)

[underrated29]

I don't see Harris as a lock. Yeah he was ok last year but he at BEST would be the #4 guy and I think a healthy Bolden, Squid, Cassius would push him for that. Seeing as Harris doesn't return kicks, that hurts his chances of latching on. He certainly has a chance to make the roster, but I wouldn't call him an absolute lock.



Harris can play saftey though. its what he was coming out of college. I do think he is a lock. Also we carried a bunch of safties last year, this year i see 4...with harris being the emergency pinch guy. If bolden is as good or potentially as good as everyone says he is. he will also make the squad

[NightTerror218]

Cassius Vaughn looked more likely to make the team than Thompson, due to his injury. But, we really don't know who will emerge in training camp.

That will be an interesting battle for 2 roster spots (at most) among 6 guys.

Bolden's not going to make the team as a backup CB. He's too raw since he missed his entire senior season due to injury and the Broncos have lots of veterans with at least several years time in the NFL ahead of him.

So, his chances probably depend on his making the roster as a KR/PR. If he can be a decent one in replacement of Eddie Royal he would make the team.

The Broncos would simply carry one less WR or TE, since that spot last year went to Royal.

He was considered a 1st/2nd round talent last season before deciding to return for senior year instead of draft. He could be a great steal in the draft. I like him better then Vaugh/Squid. Do not underestimate him. Go read todays article on the post about him.

[NightTerror218]

Bolden is going to have a roster spot unless he completely falls on face. he is a 4th rounder and was considered to have high round talent but dropped due to injury. How often do teams not place a 4th rounder on the roster? Seriously not very often, he will be on the roster along with Champ/Porter/Florence. I think Harris earned a spot last season.

[BroncoStud]

Screw it, let's run a 4-2-5.

[MOtorboat]

Bailey, Porter, Florence, Harris, Bolden, Squid.

I think six make it on the roster, and I think Bolden and Squid make it for return purposes.

[topscribe]

I understand your logic, but the one thing Harris does better than any other CB on the roster not named Champ is TACKLE. Most of the big plays against us last year were short dump off passes to WRs who broke tackles (usually from Goodman) and then it was off to the races. Harris rarely, if ever, missed tackles. Yeah, you could complete some balls against him but rarely was he not right there to bring the receiver down. I saw him make several 1st down saving tackles on 3rd down last year. That's just as important as coverage sometimes. Harris reminds me a lot of D-Will (RIP) in that for a little guy, he was never shy about throwing his head in there and getting dirty tackling guys.
Plus the fact he was a rookie with no offseason to prepare for the pros.

To me, that's impressive . . .
.

[TheReverend]

Bailey, Florence, Porter, Bolden, Harris, Thompson

if Bolden can't bang the injury rust off, he'll go PS and be replaced with Vaughn

[Jsteve01]

I find it hilarious that by the end of the season Harris was getting starts and looking studly and people are now talking about him as being on the bubble. He's a lock barring some freakish regression. I also find all the Vaughn hate odd. He can be solid depth in the defensive backfield. He should never have been starting at the point in his career. Play him as your nickle or dime and I'm ok with it. Here's my list

Champ
Porter
Florence
Harris
Bolden
Vaugh.

At safety

Adams
Carter
Moore

(Harris can double at safety)

and don't write off the Duke Ihenacho. he was a very good small school player.

[Ravage!!!]

Plus, if you are on the practice squad, can't another team simply pick you up? So if Bolden has 1st round talent, and we got a steal with him in the 4th... then another team would love to simply pluck him off our PS without having to give anything for him. Boldin makes the team purely on talent and potential, unless he just shows he can't run.

[ShaneFalco]

wow 11... thats wild. looks they really trying to find the right fit for the secondary

[NightTerror218]

Plus, if you are on the practice squad, can't another team simply pick you up? So if Bolden has 1st round talent, and we got a steal with him in the 4th... then another team would love to simply pluck him off our PS without having to give anything for him. Boldin makes the team purely on talent and potential, unless he just shows he can't run.

exactly!!!!!!!!!

[NightTerror218]

wow 11... thats wild. looks they really trying to find the right fit for the secondary

I think we loaded up to make playoff push. Lots of starters and depth. Signed 2 vets and already had 1 on roster.

[ShaneFalco]

I think we loaded up to make playoff push. Lots of starters and depth. Signed 2 vets and already had 1 on roster.

we need 11 corners for brady. :)

[CoachChaz]

Versatility is key today. Bolden, Harris and Judie have safety experience and ability. Bolden and Judie also have ST value.

IMO...for what it's worth, Squid and Vaughn showed me nothing in coverage skills, so their ONLY value is ST. But are they that much better at KR/PR than Bolden and Judie? Probably not. So if 2 were to get cut, I go with Squid and Vaughn. The other thing I try to keep in mind is Champ is old, Florence has been on the decline and Porter is on a 1 year deal.

[NightTerror218]

Versatility is key today. Bolden, Harris and Judie have safety experience and ability. Bolden and Judie also have ST value.

IMO...for what it's worth, Squid and Vaughn showed me nothing in coverage skills, so their ONLY value is ST. But are they that much better at KR/PR than Bolden and Judie? Probably not. So if 2 were to get cut, I go with Squid and Vaughn. The other thing I try to keep in mind is Champ is old, Florence has been on the decline and Porter is on a 1 year deal.

hence part of the reason Bolden was drafted. They may try to extend porter. But our starting CBs are older. Harris could get better with time. But no way we let all the youngsters go.

[CoachChaz]

hence part of the reason Bolden was drafted. They may try to extend porter. But our starting CBs are older. Harris could get better with time. But no way we let all the youngsters go.

Hopefully just the useless ones.

[NightTerror218]

Hopefully just the useless ones.

I think Jodie/Squid/Vaughn are all going to fight for 1 position. The best will also be the best ST player. I think the other 2 will be PS. They will keep 6 CBs just because its a huge passing league and the vets wont be around forever and so giving younger players exposure will help. I think this will be Squids/Vaugns last year to prove what they have. If they step up they could knock out Harris and Jodie. If they do extremely well they could pass us Bolden on depth chart and see time behind the vets. I doubt we will have Porter/Florence back next season. I am still wondering how long Bailey will go for. Porter will last longer if we sign him to extension. Florence has a year or two prob. This is Squids and vaughns 3rd season time to step it up.

[Jsteve01]

Porter is an injury waiting to happen and Florence is on the decline. We really need guys like Judie, Harris and Bolden to step up this year in camp

[ShaneFalco]

i dont remember porters injury history. did he tear his ACL or something?

[Simple Jaded]

Bailey, Porter, Florence, Bolden, Harris and Judie. That's who l hope steps up and makes it.......

[Jsteve01]

i dont remember porters injury history. did he tear his ACL or something?

no he's just always dinged up. I don't think he's ever played a whole season. Hence the short deal

[TXBRONC]

I don't see Harris as a lock. Yeah he was ok last year but he at BEST would be the #4 guy and I think a healthy Bolden, Squid, Cassius would push him for that. Seeing as Harris doesn't return kicks, that hurts his chances of latching on. He certainly has a chance to make the roster, but I wouldn't call him an absolute lock.

Thompson who had a year of experience couldn't beat out Harris last year for playing time and Harris was rookie free agent to boot. Also Thompson isn't even year removed from a torn acl so imo at best he's on the bubble.

Beyond the top three Harris, Bolden, and possibly Judie who can play special teams.

[Jsteve01]

Thompson who had a year of experience couldn't beat out Harris last year for playing time and Harris was rookie free agent to boot. Also Thompson isn't even year removed from a torn acl so imo at best he's on the bubble.

Beyond the top three Harris, Bolden, and possibly Judie can play special teams.

lol not possibly. Judie is a stud returner

[TXBRONC]

lol not possibly. Judie is a stud returner

I don't think he's absolute lock but he think he has a much better chance Thompson or Vaughn.

[Jsteve01]

I don't think he's absolute lock but he think he has a much better chance Thompson or Vaughn.

Oh I may have misread your post. You said Bolden, Harris and possibly Judie could play special teams. I'm not saying he's a lock but if we're talking ST, Judie is a standout.

[bcbronc]

I disagree with cugel that we might keep an extra CB at the expense of a wr. Its mannings first season here, can't see fox giving him less targets than he gave orton or tebow. if we drop a wr it will be to add an extra Te or running back. Any extra CB we keep would likely come at the expense of a safety imo.

Also don't see much chance of bolden making it to the practice squad. Roster or ir is my thinking.

[Chef Zambini]

at least one of the 11 is going to move to SAFETY, HARRIS is the most Likely.
the guy that covers TEs and offers the best run support is my choice, i just have no clue who that is.
CAMP wil sort it out.
defensive scheme will also help to determine selection.
I still think BAILY can be more effective as a SAFETY, rather than just being ignored as his corner assignment just runs him away from every play.

[topscribe]

I'm getting a kick out of the comments having Bolden on the PS and the bubble.
I don't think some of us realize just how good he is. I know it's kind of daring
for me to say it at this point, but I look for Bolden to be one of the top three
before the season is out. IMO.

[Ravage!!!]

at least one of the 11 is going to move to SAFETY, HARRIS is the most Likely.
the guy that covers TEs and offers the best run support is my choice, i just have no clue who that is.
CAMP wil sort it out.
defensive scheme will also help to determine selection.
I still think BAILY can be more effective as a SAFETY, rather than just being ignored as his corner assignment just runs him away from every play.
They had a coach and GM on the radio the other day discussing this, although about another team. They both agreed that if you have a top corner, and he's still a top corner, moving him to safety is not a good idea because its harder to find top corners. They both agreed that you dont' take a top guy at a position as important as corner, and move him in HOPES that he can have the same kind of impact.... UNTIL...he's proved that he can't play the corner position well, anymore.

So that being said... keeping Champ at corner is still the best thing for the Broncos at this time.

[Jsteve01]

They had a coach and GM on the radio the other day discussing this, although about another team. They both agreed that if you have a top corner, and he's still a top corner, moving him to safety is not a good idea because its harder to find top corners. They both agreed that you dont' take a top guy at a position as important as corner, and move him in HOPES that he can have the same kind of impact.... UNTIL...he's proved that he can't play the corner position well, anymore.

So that being said... keeping Champ at corner is still the best thing for the Broncos at this time.

I understand that rationale but in all honesty. Ed Reed has the potential to impact every passing play

[topscribe]

I understand that rationale but in all honesty. Ed Reed has the potential to impact every passing play
Good point. However, I'm not sure Champ could be another Ed Reed at safety,
any more than Reed could be another Champ at CB . . .

[MOtorboat]

They had a coach and GM on the radio the other day discussing this, although about another team. They both agreed that if you have a top corner, and he's still a top corner, moving him to safety is not a good idea because its harder to find top corners. They both agreed that you dont' take a top guy at a position as important as corner, and move him in HOPES that he can have the same kind of impact.... UNTIL...he's proved that he can't play the corner position well, anymore.

So that being said... keeping Champ at corner is still the best thing for the Broncos at this time.

Zam has never met a cornerback that he liked

He's been talking about moving the best corner in the game to a different position since we traded for him.

[Ravage!!!]

I understand that rationale but in all honesty. Ed Reed has the potential to impact every passing play

yes, but Reed could never play corner as well as Champ does. Ed couldn't keep a WR locked up like Champ can, and that alone can impact EVERYTHING the defense does. This is a passing league, and corners are getting more and more valuable, much more so than safeties are.

[sneakers]

http://hotimg23.fotki.com/a/66_168/20_62/20496956.jpg

[Chef Zambini]

They had a coach and GM on the radio the other day discussing this, although about another team. They both agreed that if you have a top corner, and he's still a top corner, moving him to safety is not a good idea because its harder to find top corners. They both agreed that you dont' take a top guy at a position as important as corner, and move him in HOPES that he can have the same kind of impact.... UNTIL...he's proved that he can't play the corner position well, anymore.

So that being said... keeping Champ at corner is still the best thing for the Broncos at this time.so he can matcxh up with one guy, often not even the top receiver and follow him to the bathroom while the action takes place on the other side of the field.

with champ at CORNER we play ten on ten football and he does nothing to help our defense.
as a safety he can get involved, make an impact..
excactly like Ed reed and other NFL safeties who make a difference on defense.

[Chef Zambini]

yes, but Reed could never play corner as well as Champ does. Ed couldn't keep a WR locked up like Champ can, and that alone can impact EVERYTHING the defense does. This is a passing league, and corners are getting more and more valuable, much more so than safeties are.if champ matched up with the opponents best receiver and followed him on EVERY play it would be justified. HOWEVER, champ just stays on his side of the field and the OFFENSE dictates who he covers!
so champ runs around all game long with a decoy, thats just brilliant.

[Ravage!!!]

so he can matcxh up with one guy, often not even the top receiver and follow him to the bathroom while the action takes place on the other side of the field.

with champ at CORNER we play ten on ten football and he does nothing to help our defense.
as a safety he can get involved, make an impact..
excactly like Ed reed and other NFL safeties who make a difference on defense.

You are wrong. Champ covering and taking out one receiver ABSOLUTELY is making an impact. Coaches and GMs are saying that you KEEP the corner as a corner. Good corners are harder to find than safeties, and this is a passing league. To say he does "nothing" and doesn't make a difference, nor an impact, is proving the point of why you are not anywhere involved in the NFL.

Sorry Zam, I just don't see your football knowledge to be superior to those that actually know the game.

[Chef Zambini]

Zam has never met a cornerback that he liked

He's been talking about moving the best corner in the game to a different position since we traded for him.aneus williams.
I have had a problem with champ ever since I met him, his arrogance has impacted his game on several occasions.
I value his ball hawk skills and know they would be better utilized at safety, where he can read the play and go after the ball insted of being handcuffed to a decoy all game long.

[Chef Zambini]

how many INTs did champ have last year?
he would get 8-10 as a safety.
how many sacks?
passes defended?
those numbers would all go up with champ at SAFETY !
what the F do you want from champ, reputation or production?
10 on 10 football, or a guy the QB has to worry about on every play?

[TXBRONC]

You are wrong. Champ covering and taking out one receiver ABSOLUTELY is making an impact. Coaches and GMs are saying that you KEEP the corner as a corner. Good corners are harder to find than safeties, and this is a passing league. To say he does "nothing" and doesn't make a difference, nor an impact, is proving the point of why you are not anywhere involved in the NFL.

Sorry Zam, I just don't see your football knowledge to be superior to those that actually know the game.

I guess being able to take half the field way from a offense has no impact on an offense.

[Ravage!!!]

how many INTs did champ have last year?
he would get 8-10 as a safety.
how many sacks?
passes defended?
those numbers would all go up with champ at SAFETY !
what the F do you want from champ, reputation or production?
10 on 10 football, or a guy the QB has to worry about on every play?

YOu are making speculation based on nothing more than... speculation.

Reputation is not keeping champ locked onto his WR... which is why his pass defended and INTs are low. I don't expect my corners to get sacks. This is a passing league, defending the pass is HUGE. WHEN he's taking out his 3rd of the field, he's making an impact. Safeties can be manipulated to be put where the offense wants them. Just watch the Broncos againt the Packers in the Super Bowl if you don't think this is true.

But hey.... I wouldn't expect anything less from you than to continue embarrassing yourself.

(How is it 10 on 10? What happened to our 11th defender? Maybe thats the problem with our defense, we only have 10 out there.)

[Chef Zambini]

last year, every oipposing QB was faced with the option, goodman or champ.
wow thats a real head scratcher.
put champ in center field or down in the box and suddenly you have the QB trying to audible out of his plat call.
EVERY top NFL defense has one common denominator, a SAFETY who makes a difference!
who is that guy for our broncos?
Take a look at the JETS, they have the best corner in revis! how did that help them?
they stayed away, just like they do with champ.
Teams beat the jets by running the ball and throwing to tight ends, revis was neutralized.
the same is happening with champ !
hios skills are WASTED.

[Chef Zambini]

I guess being able to take half the field way from a offense has no impact on an offense.half the field is horseshit! its just one guy. if champ plays a zone its a quarter of the field at MOST, actually one 6th !
as a safety the opposition does not know his assignment, and he can, just like ed reed free lance to the ball ! who is the better athlete, reed or champ?
ist brutally obvious that champ would make a greater impact at safety.
now...
if champ matches up every game on every play with the oponents top receiver, then I am ok with him being hand-0cuffed and the match-up is justified, HOWEVER...
CHAMP DOES NOT DO THAT !

[Chef Zambini]

YOu are making speculation based on nothing more than... speculation.

Reputation is not keeping champ locked onto his WR... which is why his pass defended and INTs are low. I don't expect my corners to get sacks. This is a passing league, defending the pass is HUGE. WHEN he's taking out his 3rd of the field, he's making an impact. Safeties can be manipulated to be put where the offense wants them. Just watch the Broncos againt the Packers in the Super Bowl if you don't think this is true.

But hey.... I wouldn't expect anything less from you than to continue embarrassing yourself.

(How is it 10 on 10? What happened to our 11th defender? Maybe thats the problem with our defense, we only have 10 out there.)oh and sacks are not huge?
yes I am speculating because champ wont move to safety.
he likes living easy off his reputation.

[Ravage!!!]

oh and sacks are not huge?
yes I am speculating because champ wont move to safety.
he likes living easy off his reputation.

Horse Shit

[Ravage!!!]

half the field is horseshit! its just one guy. if champ plays a zone its a quarter of the field at MOST, actually one 6th !
as a safety the opposition does not know his assignment, and he can, just like ed reed free lance to the ball ! who is the better athlete, reed or champ?
ist brutally obvious that champ would make a greater impact at safety.
now...
if champ matches up every game on every play with the oponents top receiver, then I am ok with him being hand-0cuffed and the match-up is justified, HOWEVER...
CHAMP DOES NOT DO THAT !

Again, this is ignorant crap. I'm sorry Zam, but you are showing you lack of knowledge with these posts, and you are just digging yourself deeper and deeper into the pile of shit. You are wrong on this..... period.

[TXBRONC]

Again, this is ignorant crap. I'm sorry Zam, but you are showing you lack of knowledge with these posts, and you are just digging yourself deeper and deeper into the pile of shit. You are wrong on this..... period.

Rav just give him a shovel and let him dig.

[Chef Zambini]

wake me up when champ stays with the opponents top receiver, regardless of where he lines up !
send me a postcard when he makes a play on a ball thrown in his direction.

[bcbronc]

I dunno, I think Zam has a point (not the living off reputation point, but the importance of a great S). Of recent Superbowl champs, NYG is the only one I can think of that didn't have a great S. the Pack had Collins, NE had Harrison, INDY Saunders, PIT Polamalu, NO had both Sharper and Harper go to the Probowl the year they won, the Bucs had Lynch and Baltimore had Rod Woodson.

How many of those teams also had great CBs? GB, TB, Balt.....and?

If I have the choice between Reed/Polamalu or Champ/Revis, I take the safety. It's easier to help an average CB with a great S than vice versa imo.

[Chef Zambini]

I dunno, I think Zam has a point (not the living off reputation point, but the importance of a great S). Of recent Superbowl champs, NYG is the only one I can think of that didn't have a great S. the Pack had Collins, NE had Harrison, INDY Saunders, PIT Polamalu, NO had both Sharper and Harper go to the Probowl the year they won, the Bucs had Lynch and Baltimore had Rod Woodson.

How many of those teams also had great CBs? GB, TB, Balt.....and?

If I have the choice between Reed/Polamalu or Champ/Revis, I take the safety. It's easier to help an average CB with a great S than vice versa imo.thanks for recognizing the rational football staement instead of just disparaging the messenger.
revis or poalomalo, which one has a greater impact for his teams defense?
revis covers one guy, palomalo makes plays all over the field, at the line of scrimmage, against the pass against the run. he sacks and he breaks up the deep pass.
he covers tight ends and half backs and receivers. he plays zone and man. he drives offenses nuts !
all you champ lovers think he is so magnificent, why are you so afraid to him put those skills to the test at safety?
more importantly, why is HE afraid?
sorry, I cant get too excited about champ following the third string receiver down the sidelines whil 98% of all the plays take place away from Mr. baily.

[Cugel]

how many INTs did champ have last year?
he would get 8-10 as a safety.
how many sacks?
passes defended?
those numbers would all go up with champ at SAFETY !
what the F do you want from champ, reputation or production?
10 on 10 football, or a guy the QB has to worry about on every play?

Do we really even have to discuss this absurdity?

Elite cover CBs rare. Every team wants two but they rarely have even one because there aren't enough to go around.

. They are NEVER, EVER, EVER converted to safety. Period! UNLESS they are older and cannot play CB at a top level anymore, which means they are no longer elite cover CBs.

To suggest otherwise is just flat nonsense. :coffee:

Here's Champ's contract just to give you an idea. They sure as hell wouldn't be giving him that kind of money if he were a FS:


2/22/2011: Signed a four-year, $43 million contract. The deal contains $15 million guaranteed, including a $5 million first-year bonus, all of Bailey's first-year salary, and $4 million of his second-year salary. An additional $7 million is guaranteed for injury only. Bailey is eligible for annual $500,000 workout bonuses. Another $4 million is available through Pro Bowl incentives. 2012: $8 million (+ $1 million roster bonus due 3/15), 2013-2014: $9 million, 2015: Free Agent

Since Champ makes the pro-bowl every year, that's a four year, $19 million guaranteed contract, including his $5 million guaranteed signing bonus. He's really costing the Broncos in excess of $7 million per season.

[Ravage!!!]

But let me ask you guys this. How many good, to great, corners have moved to safety? I can think of one, and he did it only after injury, and after losing a lot of his coverage skills as a corner.

So that tells you two things. One, its MUCH harder to find a corner that can cover, since even an injured corner ( a corner that can no longer cover), can play safety...... and do it well (as Rod Woodson did). Two, DC's see the value of a top corner as being MUCH higher priority and need than having a safety. The athleticism that is needed to play corner is MUCH more than that of a safety.

I remember when we made the trade for Champ, and the NFL radio was interviewing 4 coaches. One was Dungy, one was Parcells, one was Belicheck, and I don't remember the fourth.... but they asked if THEY would have made the trade: Portis for Bailey. Each and every one of them said "yes in aheartbeat"...because top corner talent is so hard to find.

This entire "champ lives on his reputation" is so totally absurd. How is that? Because QBs don't throw at him? No crap. Why is that? because he's blanketing his man. QBs can manipulate safeties, formations can manipulate safeties and dictate where they line-up...but not so with corners.

Keep Champ where he is until he can't play corner any more, and then move him when his athleticism isn't as important.

[Ravage!!!]

wake me up when champ stays with the opponents top receiver, regardless of where he lines up !
send me a postcard when he makes a play on a ball thrown in his direction.

Why wake you up? You obviously don't know what you are talking about, and certainly wouldn't see what was on the field.

Since when do we run man-to-man on every play? If we don't, moving the corner around gives the obvious coverage. When we need to, or want to, we move Bailey to that WR, and have. But moving him back and forth across the field does more damage to a defensive scheme purely by creating holes and telegraphing the defensive coverage.

[NightTerror218]

I would laugh if 4 yrs down the road our two starting CBs are Harris and Jodie. Two undrafted rookie CBs who excel.

[Ravage!!!]

I would laugh if 4 yrs down the road our two starting CBs are Harris and Jodie. Two undrafted rookie CBs who excel.

why would you laugh? :confused:

[NightTerror218]

why would you laugh? :confused:

Because it would be awesome. And because the fact we find 2 gems in UDFA.

[topscribe]

why would you laugh? :confused:
Maybe he suffers from gelastic seizures. :D

[ShaneFalco]

Champ is still one of the best corners playing the game, anyone who says otherwise...... i dont know what to say. :)

[Chef Zambini]

did I say he was not a great corner, NO ! I said his talents are being wasted following around a decoy all game long !
I said as a SAFETY he can make a greater impact. I said NOTHING about his skills or abilities, quitew the contrary, I suggest those skills would be better utilized at a position where he can cover more of the field, dictate his OWN assignment, and utilize his ball hawk skills and sense of awareness to stifle the opponents offense.
instead he locks on to ONE SINGULAR OPONNENT and we play ten on ten football.

[Chef Zambini]

Why wake you up? You obviously don't know what you are talking about, and certainly wouldn't see what was on the field.

Since when do we run man-to-man on every play? If we don't, moving the corner around gives the obvious coverage. When we need to, or want to, we move Bailey to that WR, and have. But moving him back and forth across the field does more damage to a defensive scheme purely by creating holes and telegraphing the defensive coverage.
telegragh ing coverage is exactly the problem. you are pathetic your resentment of anything I post is obvious. you wont even allow yourself to see the rational side of whar I am suggesting, when champ does eventually move to safety and DISGUISE HIS ASSIGNMENT, everyone will say, 'why didnt we do this sooner"

[Chef Zambini]

But let me ask you guys this. How many good, to great, corners have moved to safety? I can think of one, and he did it only after injury, and after losing a lot of his coverage skills as a corner.

So that tells you two things. One, its MUCH harder to find a corner that can cover, since even an injured corner ( a corner that can no longer cover), can play safety...... and do it well (as Rod Woodson did). Two, DC's see the value of a top corner as being MUCH higher priority and need than having a safety. The athleticism that is needed to play corner is MUCH more than that of a safety.

I remember when we made the trade for Champ, and the NFL radio was interviewing 4 coaches. One was Dungy, one was Parcells, one was Belicheck, and I don't remember the fourth.... but they asked if THEY would have made the trade: Portis for Bailey. Each and every one of them said "yes in aheartbeat"...because top corner talent is so hard to find.

This entire "champ lives on his reputation" is so totally absurd. How is that? Because QBs don't throw at him? No crap. Why is that? because he's blanketing his man. QBs can manipulate safeties, formations can manipulate safeties and dictate where they line-up...but not so with corners.

Keep Champ where he is until he can't play corner any more, and then move him when his athleticism isn't as important.path of least resistance.
lets see...
throw atr champ or throw at goodman, wow, thats a toughy.

[MOtorboat]

Yeah, guys instead of a quarterback dropping back and picking whether to throw on Andre Goodman or Champ Bailey. We should have him choose between Andre Goodman and Chris Harris!

Moving the best corner in the game away from his position is just ludicrous. I know you hate Champ because of a five second interaction with him in a restaurant in Phoenix, but that's just ridiculous Zam. Seriously ridiculous. It has been since you started trumpeting that crap six or seven years ago.

[bcbronc]

But let me ask you guys this. How many good, to great, corners have moved to safety? I can think of one, and he did it only after injury, and after losing a lot of his coverage skills as a corner.

So that tells you two things. One, its MUCH harder to find a corner that can cover, since even an injured corner ( a corner that can no longer cover), can play safety...... and do it well (as Rod Woodson did). Two, DC's see the value of a top corner as being MUCH higher priority and need than having a safety. The athleticism that is needed to play corner is MUCH more than that of a safety.

I remember when we made the trade for Champ, and the NFL radio was interviewing 4 coaches. One was Dungy, one was Parcells, one was Belicheck, and I don't remember the fourth.... but they asked if THEY would have made the trade: Portis for Bailey. Each and every one of them said "yes in aheartbeat"...because top corner talent is so hard to find.

This entire "champ lives on his reputation" is so totally absurd. How is that? Because QBs don't throw at him? No crap. Why is that? because he's blanketing his man. QBs can manipulate safeties, formations can manipulate safeties and dictate where they line-up...but not so with corners.

Keep Champ where he is until he can't play corner any more, and then move him when his athleticism isn't as important.

I dunno rav, arguably two GOATs at safety, Lott and Woodson both started at corner. And the best teams of the past decade, the NEs, Indy, Pitt, nyg, look at corner as an afterthought. Then teams like philly or Miami (a few years ago) that prioritize corner get no where.

I do agree that the athleticism of an elite corner is only found in a handful of humans on the planet. And I also agree that not every great crner can become a great safety, like Primetime for example. But I feel champ could mid the transition and even if right now isn't the right time, its only a year or two away. He's not what he once was even if he is still in the top 10 or whatever.

[FanInAZ]

I dunno, I think Zam has a point (not the living off reputation point, but the importance of a great S). Of recent Superbowl champs, NYG is the only one I can think of that didn't have a great S. the Pack had Collins, NE had Harrison, INDY Saunders, PIT Polamalu, NO had both Sharper and Harper go to the Probowl the year they won, the Bucs had Lynch and Baltimore had Rod Woodson.

How many of those teams also had great CBs? GB, TB, Balt.....and?

If I have the choice between Reed/Polamalu or Champ/Revis, I take the safety. It's easier to help an average CB with a great S than vice versa imo.

Furthermore, we had Atwater when Elway got his rings. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be that our best DB(s) played safety in all 5 of our Elway era SB teams.

[Jsteve01]

I don't know that there is a right answer to either of these questions. Riddle me this. How many of Baltimore's great corners have gone on to greatness on other teams after they've moved in free agency? The answer none. The consistent factor is Reed and to a lesser degree Landry. Great corner play is an island unto itself (please excuse the pun, I couldn't help myself). Also please remind me which of the teams with all world corners went on to win championships in say the last 10 years? I'm not completely sold on the idea of moving him, but I will say some of you are completely undervaluing the impact of a great free safety. Denver was 18th in the league in pass defense last year. That with two elite pass rushers and one of the best in corners in the game. That type of production or lack there of can't be blamed soley on Goodman/Vaughn

[Chef Zambini]

Yeah, guys instead of a quarterback dropping back and picking whether to throw on Andre Goodman or Champ Bailey. We should have him choose between Andre Goodman and Chris Harris!

Moving the best corner in the game away from his position is just ludicrous. I know you hate Champ because of a five second interaction with him in a restaurant in Phoenix, but that's just ridiculous Zam. Seriously ridiculous. It has been since you started trumpeting that crap six or seven years ago.its got nothing to do with that. champ one on one simply allows the QB to avoid champ all game long. our defensive secondary is then only as good as our second corner match-up, hello, is this too complicated for you?
if champ is a safety, the QB is never quite saure where champ wil be , and he is therefore far more effective, as long as he can read the play and get to the ball !
I think thats champs forte, especially when the ball is in the air.
putting champ one on one does not take away half the field, it just takes away champ.
dont allow your resentment of me to cloud your rational thinking.
moving champ to sdafety, to make him more PRODUCTIVE makes perfect sense.
waiting for him to get slow and old is like not wanting lynch or dawkins when they were in their prime.

[Cugel]

But let me ask you guys this. How many good, to great, corners have moved to safety? I can think of one, and he did it only after injury, and after losing a lot of his coverage skills as a corner.

So that tells you two things. One, its MUCH harder to find a corner that can cover, since even an injured corner ( a corner that can no longer cover), can play safety...... and do it well (as Rod Woodson did). Two, DC's see the value of a top corner as being MUCH higher priority and need than having a safety. The athleticism that is needed to play corner is MUCH more than that of a safety.

I remember when we made the trade for Champ, and the NFL radio was interviewing 4 coaches. One was Dungy, one was Parcells, one was Belicheck, and I don't remember the fourth.... but they asked if THEY would have made the trade: Portis for Bailey. Each and every one of them said "yes in aheartbeat"...because top corner talent is so hard to find.

This entire "champ lives on his reputation" is so totally absurd. How is that? Because QBs don't throw at him? No crap. Why is that? because he's blanketing his man. QBs can manipulate safeties, formations can manipulate safeties and dictate where they line-up...but not so with corners.

Keep Champ where he is until he can't play corner any more, and then move him when his athleticism isn't as important.

Here's a shorter version Rav: NO Defensive Coordinator in the NFL would move Champ from #1 CB to FS.

NONE.

Period.

The idea is an suggestion from a fan message board that would leave NFL coaches scratching their heads. It just would never occur to them as a realistic possibility. And you will never see it until Champ is old enough to have lost a step. :rolleyes:

When he's lost a step and his coverage skills have declined due to age or injury he can switch to FS where he can get a better angle on WRs by playing off them more and won't have to rely so much on speed and athleticism.

But, you won't see it until then.

As for QBs throwing at Champ. I remember a game where a rookie QB threw at him (Champ had 2 Ints in that game) and Phil Simms said "When I was a QB I would never throw their best defender. Why throw at him when I could go after their weakest link?"

[Ravage!!!]

The discussion started when someone asked Woodson ( in GB ) if he would move to safety. His response was "If the coaches felt it would help the team, I would be open to moving to safety."

Hence why the coaches and GMs had been asked if they would move a guy like Woodson, to safety. They alllllll... QUICKLY.... said "NO!" There wasn't even a question. It was simply "you do not move a talent like Woodson to saftey, UNTIL you have to." The question was then asked to them, "when is 'have' too?" They said that you do NOT move a top talent from corner until he's shown that he can NOT play corner effectively anymore. Until that point happens, the corner is MUCH more important, and has grown even MORE now with the way the NFL has moved to such a passing league.

Rod Woodson (Pittsburgh) was a GREAT corner, but only moved to safety AFTER injury, and after he wasn't able to play corner effectively anymore. He was/is a HoF corner, but was never a HoF safety.

Ronnie Lott had a very good rookie season as a corner, but after that, continued to drop in his effectivness. He moved to safety to keep an NFL job. Ronnie is a HoF safety, but NOT a HoF corner. He would be out of the NFL if he had to stay at corner (was only a corner for 3. something years).

All that being said, it means that you don't move a corner from the corner spot UNTIL you have to, or until you can find someone to cover better. ITs MUCH easier to find safeties than it is corners.

Now, I've always said that I would like to see Champ move to safety. I've been ok with that for a while, but after listening to several coaches, GMs, and a DC (and it was on serius radio NFL, channel 88, while traveling to Mississippi...so I can't recall the names of everyone) I realize that right now, at this point in CHamp's career, it is the WRONG move defensively. It seems to be a pretty definite "fact" in the football coaching world that you do not waste a talent like Champ at safety.

[TXBRONC]

The discussion started when someone asked Woodson ( in GB ) if he would move to safety. His response was "If the coaches felt it would help the team, I would be open to moving to safety."

Hence why the coaches and GMs had been asked if they would move a guy like Woodson, to safety. They alllllll... QUICKLY.... said "NO!" There wasn't even a question. It was simply "you do not move a talent like Woodson to saftey, UNTIL you have to." The question was then asked to them, "when is 'have' too?" They said that you do NOT move a top talent from corner until he's shown that he can NOT play corner effectively anymore. Until that point happens, the corner is MUCH more important, and has grown even MORE now with the way the NFL has moved to such a passing league.

Rod Woodson (Pittsburgh) was a GREAT corner, but only moved to safety AFTER injury, and after he wasn't able to play corner effectively anymore. He was/is a HoF corner, but was never a HoF safety.

Ronnie Lott had a very good rookie season as a corner, but after that, continued to drop in his effectivness. He moved to safety to keep an NFL job. Ronnie is a HoF safety, but NOT a HoF corner. He would be out of the NFL if he had to stay at corner (was only a corner for 3. something years).

All that being said, it means that you don't move a corner from the corner spot UNTIL you have to, or until you can find someone to cover better. ITs MUCH easier to find safeties than it is corners.

Now, I've always said that I would like to see Champ move to safety. I've been ok with that for a while, but after listening to several coaches, GMs, and a DC (and it was on serius radio NFL, channel 88, while traveling to Mississippi...so I can't recall the names of everyone) I realize that right now, at this point in CHamp's career, it is the WRONG move defensively. It seems to be a pretty definite "fact" in the football coaching world that you do not waste a talent like Champ at safety.

From what I've have heard from Champ I'm no so sure he'll wants to play that position.

Some people have this notion that it's easy to switch from corner back to safety. According Woodson who has played both position it not some simple transition.

[Chef Zambini]

champ doesnt want to.
he's happy being ignored.
(living off his reputation)

[bcbronc]

All that being said, it means that you don't move a corner from the corner spot UNTIL you have to, or until you can find someone to cover better. ITs MUCH easier to find safeties than it is corners.


And here's the crux, just when will we have to? It's obviously not going to happen this year, but how many more years does Champ have as a top corner? I personally feel his play has already began to slip. He's still a top corner and I agree it's too soon to make the move, but I also think he's in his last one or two seasons as a top level CB. I'd rather be a bit ahead of the curve and make a good CB a great FS rather than wait until that great CB has become average.

Other than that, I've more been talking in general terms. I personally see having a great S is more conducive to putting together a great defense than having a great CB is. And imo that position is supported simply by looking at how the teams with the best defenses over the past decade or two have constructed their teams. I mean we've had Champ through his prime, one of the greatest CBs ever to play, and we've had some of the most pathetic defenses ever during that time (Lynch was no longer a "great" S when he was here, still good, but wasn't a dominate all-round player any more). The Eagles had three great corners this year, couldn't stop jack. On the other hand, who have Pitt, Balt and NE used at CB during their best recent defensive years?

[Chef Zambini]

The discussion started when someone asked Woodson ( in GB ) if he would move to safety. His response was "If the coaches felt it would help the team, I would be open to moving to safety."

Hence why the coaches and GMs had been asked if they would move a guy like Woodson, to safety. They alllllll... QUICKLY.... said "NO!" There wasn't even a question. It was simply "you do not move a talent like Woodson to saftey, UNTIL you have to." The question was then asked to them, "when is 'have' too?" They said that you do NOT move a top talent from corner until he's shown that he can NOT play corner effectively anymore. Until that point happens, the corner is MUCH more important, and has grown even MORE now with the way the NFL has moved to such a passing league.

Rod Woodson (Pittsburgh) was a GREAT corner, but only moved to safety AFTER injury, and after he wasn't able to play corner effectively anymore. He was/is a HoF corner, but was never a HoF safety.

Ronnie Lott had a very good rookie season as a corner, but after that, continued to drop in his effectivness. He moved to safety to keep an NFL job. Ronnie is a HoF safety, but NOT a HoF corner. He would be out of the NFL if he had to stay at corner (was only a corner for 3. something years).

All that being said, it means that you don't move a corner from the corner spot UNTIL you have to, or until you can find someone to cover better. ITs MUCH easier to find safeties than it is corners.

Now, I've always said that I would like to see Champ move to safety. I've been ok with that for a while, but after listening to several coaches, GMs, and a DC (and it was on serius radio NFL, channel 88, while traveling to Mississippi...so I can't recall the names of everyone) I realize that right now, at this point in CHamp's career, it is the WRONG move defensively. It seems to be a pretty definite "fact" in the football coaching world that you do not waste a talent like Champ at safety.I appreciate this post and the inherent perspective.
palomalo?
you think his talents are being wasted at safety/
ed reed?
disguising your defense is the secret to success !
How difficult is it for teams to avoid a top corner like revis or champ?
piece of cake!
how easy is it for teams to avoid ed reed or troy P?offenses are now 3 WR deep !
and if they employ TEs they are more for pass catching than blocking!
this is the new NFL, not the old NFL with 2 wide outs !
a SAfety who can rome all parts of the field is far more valuable than a corner who locks on 2 one receiver !
now if that corner takes away your top receiver, one on one and moves with him wherever he lines up, then I see the value, HOWEVER...
CHAMP does NOT do that!
revis does, champ does not.

[Cugel]

You have to notice that despite all the fan arguments, NFL coaches simply DO NOT move their #1 CB to safety.

It's not a question of whether Del Rio will or won't do this. NOBODY would do it.

Hence it's not a realistic suggestion, which means it's based on a fan LACK OF UNDERSTANDING of fundamental football and won't be considered until Champ loses a step.

So, why all the endless argument that the Broncos "ought" to do something that no coach would consider?

[TheReverend]

a SAfety who can rome all parts of the field is far more valuable than a corner who locks on 2 one receiver !

False.

...and that's not "opinion", it's actually false.

We can use economics and just look at the average $ for starting CBs vs starting Ss and see that CB is dramatically (and using YOUR words here) more valuable.

[Ravage!!!]

Other than that, I've more been talking in general terms. I personally see having a great S is more conducive to putting together a great defense than having a great CB is. And imo that position is supported simply by looking at how the teams with the best defenses over the past decade or two have constructed their teams. I mean we've had Champ through his prime, one of the greatest CBs ever to play, and we've had some of the most pathetic defenses ever during that time (Lynch was no longer a "great" S when he was here, still good, but wasn't a dominate all-round player any more). The Eagles had three great corners this year, couldn't stop jack. On the other hand, who have Pitt, Balt and NE used at CB during their best recent defensive years?

I see what you are saying, but then, whats the most benefit...having Champ be a stud corner now, or a weak safety now while having weak players take his spot?

I think the examples you gave fit your point, however I can point out that you are ignoring the rest of the players on those particular defenses. Did the safety make those defenses great? Did the defense that stopped the 18-0 Pats have a great safety?

Not to mention, Ed Reed wasn't on the Baltimore Raven GREAT defense that won the Super Bowl...who was their safety?

I'm not saying that a great corner is all that is needed, I'm saying that when coaches, DCs, and GMs choose between having a great corner, or a safety..... they pay a LOT MORE MONEY to have a great corner.

The "he can be ignored" argument that Zam is making, is weak and completely (and totally) false. Thats like saying when a team doesn't run right the entire game to avoid a DE, that the DE can be "ignored" because he's not racking up tackles on his side of the field. Its a pretty silly to say that Champ (or the DE) isn't having an major impact on the game.

[TXBRONC]

False.

...and that's not "opinion", it's actually false.

We can use economics and just look at the average $ for starting CBs vs starting Ss and see that CB is dramatically (and using YOUR words here) more valuable.

He already has his mind made up don't confuse him with facts. That's just cruel. :tsk:

[Cugel]

Time to UN-Hijack this thread! :focus:


"I don't think you can ever have too many corners with a lot of the multiple-receiver sets that you get — and we will get with the types of quarterbacks that we have on our schedule this year," Broncos coach John Fox said.

RETURNING BRONCOS

• Champ Bailey: 14th year, starter.

• Tony Carter: Backup and special teams in 2011.

• Chris Harris: Nickel cornerback and special teams in 2011.

• Syd'Quan Thompson: Missed 2011 season with torn Achilles tendon.

• Cassius Vaughn: Backup and special teams the first half of 2011. Spent second half of the season on injured reserve.

FREE-AGENT ACQUISITIONS

• Drayton Florence: Longtime starter signed with Broncos last week after being cut by Buffalo.

• Tracy Porter: Starting right cornerback from New Orleans, only 25 years old.

• Joshua Moore: Played three games for Chicago in 2010.

• Ramzee Robinson: Played for Detroit, Philadelphia and Cleveland from 2007-09.

ROOKIES

• Omar Bolden: Fourth-round draft pick from Arizona State.

• Coryell Judie: Undrafted out of Texas A&M.

The question that occurred to me is whether Drayton Florence might not pressure Tracy Porter for the #2 CB spot. I don't imagine that's the idea in the coaches' head right now, but it could happen.

[Jsteve01]

False.

...and that's not "opinion", it's actually false.

We can use economics and just look at the average $ for starting CBs vs starting Ss and see that CB is dramatically (and using YOUR words here) more valuable.

I don't think the dollar argument is necessarily a valid defense one way or the other. I also in all honesty am not overly swayed by the fact that 5 football guys stated that corner is far more valuable than saftey. This league is a copy cat league and conventional wisdom reigns supreme. the rosters of of the last 10 super bowl winners don't bear it out. The Packers and the Bucs both had great corners but you know what they had over the top? Good safeties. Conversely all of the teams that have won super bowls in the past 10 years placed a premium on the safety position or had otherworldly pass rushes like the Giants to cover up deficiencies in their backfields.

I still say I'm torn on the issue. I see the best years that Champ ever had statistically were those where he was playing in a soft zone for Slo and getting to read the qb. I also believe in the value of having a shut down corner on the outside. I don't think this issue is as cut and dry as any of us would like to believe it is.

[Jsteve01]

Time to UN-Hijack this thread! :focus:


The question that occurred to me is whether Drayton Florence might not pressure Tracy Porter for the #2 CB spot. I don't imagine that's the idea in the coaches' head right now, but it could happen.


It's a very valid question and based on history, whether he wins the job or not Florence will start some games for Porter this year. Tracy's fragile

[Chef Zambini]

sorry, cugel, whose opinion I respect,
you cant use contract or coin as proof of a players value or worth.
CANT.

Just ask the washington redskins for details.
But I do agree, its time to get back on topic. apparently its blasphemy to move champ to safety, WTF was I thinking.
Is there any other current corner that you folks think might make a difference at safety?

[TheReverend]

I don't think the dollar argument is necessarily a valid defense one way or the other. I also in all honesty am not overly swayed by the fact that 5 football guys stated that corner is far more valuable than saftey. This league is a copy cat league and conventional wisdom reigns supreme. the rosters of of the last 10 super bowl winners don't bear it out. The Packers and the Bucs both had great corners but you know what they had over the top? Good safeties. Conversely all of the teams that have won super bowls in the past 10 years placed a premium on the safety position or had otherworldly pass rushes like the Giants to cover up deficiencies in their backfields.

I still say I'm torn on the issue. I see the best years that Champ ever had statistically were those where he was playing in a soft zone for Slo and getting to read the qb. I also believe in the value of having a shut down corner on the outside. I don't think this issue is as cut and dry as any of us would like to believe it is.

This is what your post looks like in summary form though, man:

"I'm going to ignore facts and the input of professionals and support my opinion with nothing."

Also, the Packers had dreadful safety play over the top man... Charlie Peprah and Nick Collins lol. In fact, I'd venture to say only the Steelers, Saints (lol cheating), Bucs and 2011 Giants had a great safety situation. And ftr, the Bucs team played a very strict cover 2... in that situation safety definitely becomes more valuable than corner since they're playing deep halves while corner is simplified sitting in flats and jumping routes.

...but Denver is NOT a cover 2 shell team. Our version of cover 2 is safeties on the back end WITH corner support all the way.

[Ravage!!!]

Rev brings up a point that most of the time is ignored when it comes to talking about most players and/or positions.....scheme.

Its why some players are looked at to be drafted or not. Its why FA's are looked at, and not. Its why players are used in certain ways compared to others, and it absolutely, 100% has to do with why you would move a player from where he is VERY GOOD at, to a position he's never played.... scheme.

There is a reason teams spend more money on corners and not safety. If Safeties were premium, they would be getting the premium money....and as a result of that, you would see DC's move guys like Champ and Revis to safety. But you don't. Its not because safety is considered the high priority over a top corner, and they are ignoring it.

[Chef Zambini]

champ chases decoys all game long.
our best defender, as many of you perceive him, is reduced to baby-sitting someone not involved in the play. ten on ten football
its pretty cut and dry for me.
if champ stayed with the opponents top receiver all game long, then you have a justifiable stalemate. but having your queen mark a pawn is NOT smart chess.

[Ravage!!!]

champ chases decoys all game long.
our best defender, as many of you perceive him, is reduced to baby-sitting someone not involved in the play. ten on ten football
its pretty cut and dry for me.
if champ stayed with the opponents top receiver all game long, then you have a justifiable stalemate. but having your queen mark a pawn is NOT smart chess.

Chef.... lets just make it very clear, here. You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about. I mean, lets be serious. Your understanding of the game is very minimal, and your understanding of defensive scheme, is nil. I know thats going to come across as me purely insulting you, and I'm sorry for that, but it's the truth.

[Chef Zambini]

Rev brings up a point that most of the time is ignored when it comes to talking about most players and/or positions.....scheme.

Its why some players are looked at to be drafted or not. Its why FA's are looked at, and not. Its why players are used in certain ways compared to others, and it absolutely, 100% has to do with why you would move a player from where he is VERY GOOD at, to a position he's never played.... scheme.

There is a reason teams spend more money on corners and not safety. If Safeties were premium, they would be getting the premium money....and as a result of that, you would see DC's move guys like Champ and Revis to safety. But you don't. Its not because safety is considered the high priority over a top corner, and they are ignoring it.
because our scheme has been so stable over the last decade.
I hope that changes with fox.
regardless, offenses are evolving and defenses have to evolve with them.
I cant buy into your payment plan as a justifiable arguement, sorry.
what are the steelers paying TROY?
do they have a corner making more money than palomalo?
but then again, WTF do the steelers know about defense?
its not like palo is an impact player, huh?
I think champ could be our palomalo, I guess thats blasphemy. better to let champ just be our champ at corner.
how has that worked out for us over the last 8 years?
worlds best decoy chaser, and as long as we have guys like goodman on the other side, QBs will continue to avoid champ.

[Jsteve01]

This is what your post looks like in summary form though, man:

"I'm going to ignore facts and the input of professionals and support my opinion with nothing."

Also, the Packers had dreadful safety play over the top man... Charlie Peprah and Nick Collins lol. In fact, I'd venture to say only the Steelers, Saints (lol cheating), Bucs and 2011 Giants had a great safety situation. And ftr, the Bucs team played a very strict cover 2... in that situation safety definitely becomes more valuable than corner since they're playing deep halves while corner is simplified sitting in flats and jumping routes.

...but Denver is NOT a cover 2 shell team. Our version of cover 2 is safeties on the back end WITH corner support all the way.

lol come on Rev. At the end of the day this is going to be a subjective argument. We found 5 personnel guys ( i have no idea who they are btw) who said no way you move a dominant corner to safety and then we have a conversation about the average salary of a top corner vs the avg of a top safety. Again as we've discussed over and over the market establishes value. The buyer establishes value. Value is fluid. The current trend in the league states that corner is more important than safety. I get it. But let's not act like you supported your case with a boatload of stats. Your case was based on dollars and anecdotal evidence from some personnel guys.

Hey I'm kind of a meat an potatoes guy. I go back and just look at stuff that makes sense. ie the Broncos' super bowl victories with good pass rush, average corners and a great player on the back end. That kind of stuff makes sense.

Lastly I find it odd that a supporter of the unconventional in Tebow and the success of the read option would be so quick to submit conventional wisdom as the basis for your argument. I don't have my mind made up on this issue as I've stated again and again I just find it funny that people are so quick to poopoo the idea.

[topscribe]

champ chases decoys all game long.
our best defender, as many of you perceive him, is reduced to baby-sitting someone not involved in the play. ten on ten football
its pretty cut and dry for me.
if champ stayed with the opponents top receiver all game long, then you have a justifiable stalemate. but having your queen mark a pawn is NOT smart chess.
The problem with that, Zam, is if you remove Champ from his spot,
then the decoy becomes a target. In other words, the opponent's
best receiver becomes a target . . .

[TheReverend]

lol come on Rev. At the end of the day this is going to be a subjective argument. We found 5 personnel guys ( i have no idea who they are btw) who said no way you move a dominant corner to safety and then we have a conversation about the average salary of a top corner vs the avg of a top safety. Again as we've discussed over and over the market establishes value. The buyer establishes value. Value is fluid. The current trend in the league states that corner is more important than safety. I get it. But let's not act like you supported your case with a boatload of stats. Your case was based on dollars and anecdotal evidence from some personnel guys.

Hey I'm kind of a meat an potatoes guy. I go back and just look at stuff that makes sense. ie the Broncos' super bowl victories with good pass rush, average corners and a great player on the back end. That kind of stuff makes sense.

Lastly I find it odd that a supporter of the unconventional in Tebow and the success of the read option would be so quick to submit conventional wisdom as the basis for your argument. I don't have my mind made up on this issue as I've stated again and again I just find it funny that people are so quick to poopoo the idea.

Will you just give me a hug already?

[Cugel]

The problem with that, Zam, is if you remove Champ from his spot,
then the decoy becomes a target. In other words, the opponent's
best receiver becomes a target . . .

My attempt to Un-Hijack this thread from a pointless discussion of why NFL teams never move an elite cover CB to FS seems to have utterly failed.

Everybody just insists on discussing this ridiculous point.

Topscribe is of course exactly right. This ought really to end the debate, but of course it won't. The fact that there's ZERO chance of anything like that happening is tossed aside by the ignorant with the comment "conventional thinking."

Yes, the "conventional thinking" of NFL coaches who spend 20 years learning how to build a defense versus the "inventive thinking" of a fan who eats potato chips on the couch.

I have nothing against fans questioning management's decisions. It's healthy. And teams often DO make mistakes. Coaches sometimes suck, and get fired. And then there's the occasional Josh McDaniels whose impact is exactly like the giant meteorite that wiped out the dinosaurs.

But, when NOBODY in the NFL is doing something and the entire salary structure goes completely against it, that ought to tell you "maybe I should re-think this."

What it ought to tell you is that the idea is without merit. It's a stupid idea based on a misconception.

But, alas the forecast is for endless fog and confusion and little likelihood of enlightenment. :coffee:

Oh, and yes you CAN tell the relative importance of a position by how much players at that position make. You' don't see any CBs or S's getting $18 million a year like Peyton Manning do you? There's a reason for that.

[Ravage!!!]

I've also found, that even the worst DC in the NFL....STILL knows what he's talking about.

[bcbronc]

This is what your post looks like in summary form though, man:

"I'm going to ignore facts and the input of professionals and support my opinion with nothing."

Also, the Packers had dreadful safety play over the top man... Charlie Peprah and Nick Collins lol. In fact, I'd venture to say only the Steelers, Saints (lol cheating), Bucs and 2011 Giants had a great safety situation. And ftr, the Bucs team played a very strict cover 2... in that situation safety definitely becomes more valuable than corner since they're playing deep halves while corner is simplified sitting in flats and jumping routes.

...but Denver is NOT a cover 2 shell team. Our version of cover 2 is safeties on the back end WITH corner support all the way.

Shit dude, do you even watch this game? Collins is a dreadful safety? Yeah dreadful safeties are named all-pro all the time. Note that's not pro-bowl but all-pro.

Rav, Rod Woodson was safety for Baltimore when they won. I considered him a great safety.

Conventional wisdom means sfa. It used to be conventional wisdom that you have one stud back to carry the ball 30x a game. And you don't OL in RD1. And you certainly never draft a SAM at #2. Etc etc etc.

Its undeniable that the great recent defenses have usually had great safeties moreso than great corners. The fact the S tends to get paid less than the CBs do is just another reason to stack up over the top and use secondary talent at CB (obviously not relevant in the Champ discussion). IMO we've already begun to see a shift in the importance of safeties, and I predict we're on the verge of conventional wisdom becoming you need a great safety to have a great defense.

[Ravage!!!]

Its undeniable that the great recent defenses have usually had great safeties moreso than great corners. The fact the S tends to get paid less than the CBs do is just another reason to stack up over the top and use secondary talent at CB (obviously not relevant in the Champ discussion). IMO we've already begun to see a shift in the importance of safeties, and I predict we're on the verge of conventional wisdom becoming you need a great safety to have a great defense.

Rod was a good safety, but not a great safety. He absolutely was a GREAT corner. Hell, lets be honest, he was a GREAT player!

Top corners get paid more money, because the talent to cover WRs with the new rules makes them that much harder to find... which is why those in the NFL are saying that if you DO have one, you don't move them.

But as to what you are saying about the "shift".... not according to HCs, DC's and GMs. They are expressing that because its becoming more and more a passing league, that corners are becoming even that much more important. Not the other way around.

[NightTerror218]

Bailey does not chase decoys all game. He takes the best WR out of the game. That leaves the QB to going to his 2nd WR. If the play for the QB is to go that WR on the first read then it adds a couple more seconds for our pass rush to get to QB. Our problems in the past were that our other CBs and safties were not able to cover the 2nd and 3rd options and our secondary was getting toasted at times. But the fact that it was not their best player owning us be rather secondary WR/TEs.

I take Champ at corner removing, Megatron, Bowe, Holmes, Marshall, or any top WR out of the game over his being at safety and the players owning other good CBs.

[Northman]

Rod was a good safety, but not a great safety. He absolutely was a GREAT corner. Hell, lets be honest, he was a GREAT player!



Most of what you wrote i agree except that he was not a great safety which i totally disagree with. In 7 years he had 24 Int's, 5 TD's, 10 FR. For a guy who was playing not in his natural position that is superb especially late in his career.

[Ravage!!!]

Most of what you wrote i agree except that he was not a great safety which i totally disagree with. In 7 years he had 24 Int's, 5 TD's, 10 FR. For a guy who was playing not in his natural position that is superb especially late in his career.

Fair enough. I guess I look at his safety play compared to his corner play. At corner, he was elected to the 75th anniversary team while still in his prime. He was THAT good. I believe he had only been in the league 6 years at the time. He, Jerry Rice, and Reggie White were the only players selected that hadn't already retired when the team was selected.

So thats what I'm saying..he was one HELL of a football player.. for sure. I'm not taking anything away from his safety play. However, that defense was great with our without Woodson.

[Jsteve01]

Will you just give me a hug already?

sorry if I do I'll be ostracized by the rest of the board for being nice to you :shrugs:

[Northman]

Ill give Rev a hug. He's good peeps.

[Jsteve01]

Rev and I lived in the same town in PA. I agree North, and that's why I like you. You don't get caught up in the lame azz circle the wagon routine that tends to happen on forums such as this one.

[Northman]

Rev and I lived in the same town in PA. I agree North, and that's why I like you. You don't get caught up in the lame azz circle the wagon routine that tends to happen on forums such as this one.

Meh, all forums have their pro's and con's. This one has less in my opinion but at the same time i think just about anyone here will tell you that ive had disagreements or riffs with them at some point on here ranging from guys like Bullgator to Tned. At the end of the day though its just opinions and i dont let it drag me down or dwell it once im off the board. I even think in the past ive had disagreements with Rev on the Mane about things but it all means nothing in the big picture. Its just a love/hate relationship with us all. lmao

[Cugel]

What I like about this forum is that there are not quite as many idiots on it as the official forum.

Second, the mods aren't all totally into censoring everybody and banning them for "posting an offensive picture" of Tebow's reported girlfriend. :rolleyes:

"How Tim Tebow got such strong hands!"
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/272/891/drewes_original.jpg?1323726108

[Ravage!!!]

Good God. No wonder he can't see WRs, he probably has his eyes bruised all the time from all that motorboating.

[Jsteve01]

Meh, all forums have their pro's and con's. This one has less in my opinion but at the same time i think just about anyone here will tell you that ive had disagreements or riffs with them at some point on here ranging from guys like Bullgator to Tned. At the end of the day though its just opinions and i dont let it drag me down or dwell it once im off the board. I even think in the past ive had disagreements with Rev on the Mane about things but it all means nothing in the big picture. Its just a love/hate relationship with us all. lmao

yeah my post painted it as if this one is bad, which it isn't at all. I've been made to feel at home here since moving over from the freak and Mane. I like this place and the mods do a great job of not overdoing it.

[MOtorboat]

For the record, he never dated that chick.

:randompartyphoto:

:sitllnotsmarttomovebaileytosafety:

[Day1BroncoFan]

I see Champ retiring as a Corner no matter how many fans want him to be a Saftey.

[Cugel]

For the record, he never dated that chick.

:randompartyphoto:

:sitllnotsmarttomovebaileytosafety:

Yes we know. She has disclaimed being Tebow's girlfriend.

Nobody knows whether Tebow has a girl-friend or not. Reports that he was dating Lindsey Vonn, the 4 time World Cup Overall Ski Champion and Olympic Downhill Champion were also false:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/272/892/135209872_crop_340x234.jpg?1323726186

[Simple Jaded]

If Teebs didn't hit that shit rawdog he's a fag.......

[Chef Zambini]

The problem with that, Zam, is if you remove Champ from his spot,
then the decoy becomes a target. In other words, the opponent's
best receiver becomes a target . . .....and champ smells it out and manuevers under the ball.
ot he surprizes on a blitz and takes out the QB, or he jumps back from his spot inside the box and drops into a zone to break up the pass, or he lends run support and stops the RB from getting the first down,
' or, he follows the decoy to the bathroom.

[Chef Zambini]

My attempt to Un-Hijack this thread from a pointless discussion of why NFL teams never move an elite cover CB to FS seems to have utterly failed.

Everybody just insists on discussing this ridiculous point.

Topscribe is of course exactly right. This ought really to end the debate, but of course it won't. The fact that there's ZERO chance of anything like that happening is tossed aside by the ignorant with the comment "conventional thinking."

Yes, the "conventional thinking" of NFL coaches who spend 20 years learning how to build a defense versus the "inventive thinking" of a fan who eats potato chips on the couch.

I have nothing against fans questioning management's decisions. It's healthy. And teams often DO make mistakes. Coaches sometimes suck, and get fired. And then there's the occasional Josh McDaniels whose impact is exactly like the giant meteorite that wiped out the dinosaurs.

But, when NOBODY in the NFL is doing something and the entire salary structure goes completely against it, that ought to tell you "maybe I should re-think this."

What it ought to tell you is that the idea is without merit. It's a stupid idea based on a misconception.

But, alas the forecast is for endless fog and confusion and little likelihood of enlightenment. :coffee:

Oh, and yes you CAN tell the relative importance of a position by how much players at that position make. You' don't see any CBs or S's getting $18 million a year like Peyton Manning do you? There's a reason for that.aqgain I ask what are nthe steelers paying palomalo, and how does that compare with their corners.
before you shut down the concept based on pay per position, you need to post the steeler payroll to shut up a pest like zambini.
love your weather forecast, BTW !

[Chef Zambini]

The problem with that, Zam, is if you remove Champ from his spot,
then the decoy becomes a target. In other words, the opponent's
best receiver becomes a target . . .
is champo ALWAYS taking the oppennts best receiver one on one, every play?
the answer is a difinitive NO!
and who is the opponents best receiver when you are talking about a team like the patriots?
is it welker or one of their two tight ends?
you just dont know.
So who would champ the SAFETY end up covering?
you just dont know, and more importantly, BRADY wont know eiter !
under the current "scheme" brady and every other QB will know exactly where champ is and will thertefore find it easy to ignore him !
what is the value of a cornert who is covering somebody the QB will never throw to?
champ may as well be covering the GUARD, because he aint goona see the ball either !
please continue to ignore the reality.

[MOtorboat]

aqgain I ask what are nthe steelers paying palomalo, and how does that compare with their corners.
before you shut down the concept based on pay per position, you need to post the steeler payroll to shut up a pest like zambini.
love your weather forecast, BTW !

Taylor makes about 5.5 and Polamalu makes about 6.5 per season.

Using the best safety in football isn't a very good example, but I'm guessing you probably already knew that...

[bcbronc]

Top corners get paid more money, because the talent to cover WRs with the new rules makes them that much harder to find... which is why those in the NFL are saying that if you DO have one, you don't move them.

But that's because the athleticism required to be an elite CB is so rare. Because so few people have the innate ability to play the position at the highest level, it's going to cost more to sign the ones that do. It also means you're going to keep the guy there when you do get one. It's easier to find the athleticism needed for a safety.

But what about when Champ loses enough steps that he's no longer an elite corner? What do those in the NFL say about moving a #2 CB to FS, where he could potentially be top 10 in the league? Not saying that's now, but it might be. Champ isn't a dominant corner anymore...still a good one, one of the best in the game, but not DPOTY dominant anymore. Because, as mentioned, being an elite CB requires such elite athleticism, Champ's play could fall off a cliff (relatively speaking, not saying he'll be out of the league in a year or anything) if he's lost a step over the offseason. We've all seen it happen to dozen's of great NFLers. No one is saying we should move Champ in his prime to S.



But as to what you are saying about the "shift".... not according to HCs, DC's and GMs. They are expressing that because its becoming more and more a passing league, that corners are becoming even that much more important. Not the other way around.

Quantity more so than quality though imo. You can't have four CBs on your roster anymore because there are so many multiple WR packages. I don't think anyone is saying they feel they need to have a whole stable of shut down corners, especially not after Philly's debacle.

I also don't know who it is you are citing as saying how much more important CB is than S. I doubt it was Bill Belichick. Or the brain trust in Pittsburgh. Or Baltimore. Safeties cost less to acquire, take up less cap space, have longer primes (generally), and can be used in a lot more ways than a CB (again, generally...Charles Woodson says hi). Say what you want, but the results speak loudest of all and more Superbowl champions have great safety(s) and average corners than vice versa ANIEC.

[topscribe]

is champo ALWAYS taking the oppennts best receiver one on one, every play?
the answer is a difinitive NO!
and who is the opponents best receiver when you are talking about a team like the patriots?
is it welker or one of their two tight ends?
you just dont know.
So who would champ the SAFETY end up covering?
you just dont know, and more importantly, BRADY wont know eiter !
under the current "scheme" brady and every other QB will know exactly where champ is and will thertefore find it easy to ignore him !
what is the value of a cornert who is covering somebody the QB will never throw to?
champ may as well be covering the GUARD, because he aint goona see the ball either !
please continue to ignore the reality.
Well Zam, not every team is like the Patriots. Most teams have a receiver who
can be easily defined as the #1. And Champ is usually put on that receiver.

I agree that Champ could make a very good FS. But he is still one of the very
best CBs in the league. That is why you are not going to see him at safety . . .

[LTC Pain]

Back on topic:

Here's my take on CBs.

On Roster: Bailey, Porter, Florence, Harris, Bolden, Thompson

Cut or Practice Squad: Two of Vaughn, Carter, Moore, Robinson, Judie

[Chef Zambini]

Well Zam, not every team is like the Patriots. Most teams have a receiver who
can be easily defined as the #1. And Champ is usually put on that receiver.

I agree that Champ could make a very good FS. But he is still one of the very
best CBs in the league. That is why you are not going to see him at safety . . .thats incorrect!
champ plays on ONE side of the field and he takes the outside receiver, whomever that may be.
opponents recognize this and thewrefore RARELY stick their top rcieve out there.
last year for the first time in YEARS, champ actually did as you discribe, but in only a few games, 2 or 3 is my best recolection.
he does NOT match up the the opponents best receiver every week. he usually just plays his prefered left side.
and if that top receiver lines up in the slot, he is NOT champs assignment.
this is reality.
shit like "champ takes away half the field, is not reality it is hyperboly and boastful exxageration .
its a phrase, not reality.

[Chef Zambini]

Back on topic:

Here's my take on CBs.

On Roster: Bailey, Porter, Florence, Harris, Bolden, Thompson

Cut or Practice Squad: Two of Vaughn, Carter, Moore, Robinson, Judiedo you thinjk any of these guys will move to safety?

[MOtorboat]

do you thinjk any of these guys will move to safety?

No.

Because Denver has SAFETIES TO PLAY SAFETY AND CORNERBACKS TO PLAY CORNERBACK.

Jeesh.

[Chef Zambini]

Taylor makes about 5.5 and Polamalu makes about 6.5 per season.

Using the best safety in football isn't a very good example, but I'm guessing you probably already knew that...why isnt it a good example?
we are discussing one of the best corners in football arent we?
best, safety, best defense, best scheme, best defensive coordinator.
you dont think there is a correlation?
THERY value the role of SAFETY!
they reccognoze the impact of his abilities and the inherent deception in the position that comes from the versatility !
3 great corners on a team?
we will just throw to our tight ends and run the ball
if we take champ out of the discussion, and therfeore your emotions, its easy to undwerstand that a top SAFETY is far more valuable than a top corner, and PALOMALO is my #1 example !

[Chef Zambini]

No.

Because Denver has SAFETIES TO PLAY SAFETY AND CORNERBACKS TO PLAY CORNERBACK.

Jeesh.who are our 3 top safties?
hows their health, experience and ability?

[MOtorboat]

why isnt it a good example?
if we take champ out of the discussion, and therfeore your emotions, its easy to undwerstand that a top SAFETY is far more valuable than a top corner, and PALOMALO is my #1 example !

Sentence one: It's one of only two examples in the NFL where it could even remotely be considered.

Sentence two: No. It's not. You have two examples that are possible. Polamalu and Ed Reed. After that it's pretty obvious that cornerbacks are much more coveted than safeties. It's not "easy to understand" to because it simply isn't true. And we're not talking about opinions here; safety is not, nor will it become, a more coveted position.

[Chef Zambini]

from the FREAK, I ask and TRENCHES responds:

who are our starting safeties? Adams and Carter. Moore should be the back up and Harris the nickle vs run teams because he is a solid tackler.

are they run stoppers? Both can Tackle and should be fine in run support. Carter goes into his second year and should improve from what I thought was a good rookie year(2 int in the playoffs).

can they cover a tight-end? Carter should improve in this area. We play 7 games this year vs good TE's. 2 of those teams have aging TE's in Atl and San Diego leaving 4 good young TE matchups. Houstons is coming back from injury, New England can't be stopped by most any D in the league so move on, New Orleans is in Havoc this year so far and we get them coming off our bye and Cincy has a good emerging TE that could be the number 2 or 3 option.


so do you agree with his responses or do you have your own thoughts on the safety position?
this thread is about 11 corners in camp.
obviously 4 or 5 of them wont make the roster at corner, so I suggest one or two might move to safety ( and gave my annual pitch about improving our team the most if CHAMP were to make that move)
But as long as you guys are running the team, thats not gonna happen so lets move on, shaLL WE?
do you see anyone else moving to safety amongst these 11?
I think safety is the weakest part of our defense and thertefore the element our opponents are most likely to exploit !

[Chef Zambini]

Sentence one: It's one of only two examples in the NFL where it could even remotely be considered.

Sentence two: No. It's not. You have two examples that are possible. Polamalu and Ed Reed. After that it's pretty obvious that cornerbacks are much more coveted than safeties. It's not "easy to understand" to because it simply isn't true. And we're not talking about opinions here; safety is not, nor will it become, a more coveted position.so its just coincidence that the two best defenses in the NFL also happen to value the safety position above the role of corner?
I got you, silly me.
why would anyone want to emmulate those two defenses/
its not like they are the tree of life for defensive co-ordinators and HCs all across the league or anything! just two remote isolated examples that we should just continue to ignore.
I guess we should also ignore that when NOLAN came to denver, one of his first questions to CHAMP was his willingness to play SAFETY and he got a flat NO !
but NOLAN is a moron, where did he come from?

[MOtorboat]

Do you move Larry Fitzgerald to running back because Maurice Jones-Drew is good?

No. It's a non-sequitur type of argument.

[Ravage!!!]

But that's because the athleticism required to be an elite CB is so rare. Because so few people have the innate ability to play the position at the highest level, it's going to cost more to sign the ones that do. It also means you're going to keep the guy there when you do get one. It's easier to find the athleticism needed for a safety.

But what about when Champ loses enough steps that he's no longer an elite corner? What do those in the NFL say about moving a #2 CB to FS, where he could potentially be top 10 in the league? Not saying that's now, but it might be. Champ isn't a dominant corner anymore...still a good one, one of the best in the game, but not DPOTY dominant anymore. Because, as mentioned, being an elite CB requires such elite athleticism, Champ's play could fall off a cliff (relatively speaking, not saying he'll be out of the league in a year or anything) if he's lost a step over the offseason. We've all seen it happen to dozen's of great NFLers. No one is saying we should move Champ in his prime to S.

actually, ZAM is. What you are saying is exactly what I've been saying, as well as what the DC's were saying. As long as Woodson (or Champ in this example) are still at the tops at corner, you keep them at corner. Once they lose that step, and aren't effective at corner, then you can attempt to make the transition to safety.

UNTIL that point, you are hurting your defense MORE by making the move.

I don't think more SUper Bowl Champions have great safeties. The last few Super Bowl winners haven't had great runner, or GREAT WRs...either. I don't think thats a trend. People have tried to use Denver as an example of winning Super Bowls with Atwater. Lets be honest, I LOVE Atwater, but he was NOT NOT NOT at the top of his game (and certainly not a top S) when we won those Super Bowls. We won purely because of our offense.

Lets also not forget that NE won THREE Super Bowls with Ty Law, and haven't won since. Now is that why they lost those Super Bowls, and is it the only reason they won? Absolutely not. I simply am pointing out that your use of "teams winning with top safeties" (although Ed Reed hasn't won a single one yet) is no different than me saying that NE needs a top corner.

The very simply point is that you don't move a top talent at corner to safety because Corner talent is harder to find (as you pointed out) ... THUS... get more pay. If they didn't think that a top corner was mover valuable than a top safety, then they wouldn't be willing to pay for top corners.

[MOtorboat]

Four positions: QB, LT, DE/OLB, CB.

You DO NOT move any player who is an elite talent at any one of those four positions to another position. Ever.

Why are people so obsessed with moving a top CB to FS and a top DE/OLB to MLB?

[Chef Zambini]

the pittsburg steelers and the baltimore ravens disagree.
they must be defensive idiots.
the rest of the NFL must be right.
I am retarded for wanting our best defensive athlete,
text book tackler and exceptional ball hawk to play safety.
I am an idiot, just like that ass-clown running the defense in pittsburg

[MOtorboat]

No, they don't disagree. They just made a smart move in drafting good safeties that turned out to be elite.

They both covet cornerbacks too.

Jeesh.

[Chef Zambini]

Do you move Larry Fitzgerald to running back because Maurice Jones-Drew is good?

No. It's a non-sequitur type of argument.seriosly?
your comparison is the non-sequitor here.
so I guess your response, as I continue to attempt to move forward is,
No you dont move any of the current 11 corners to safety.

[Chef Zambini]

Four positions: QB, LT, DE/OLB, CB.

You DO NOT move any player who is an elite talent at any one of those four positions to another position. Ever.

Why are people so obsessed with moving a top CB to FS and a top DE/OLB to MLB?to improve their defense.

[MOtorboat]

seriosly?
your comparison is the non-sequitor here.
so I guess your response, as I continue to attempt to move forward is,
No you dont move any of the current 11 corners to safety.

This is your argument: Troy Polamalu and Ed Reed are the best safeties in football. Let's move Champ Bailey to safety.

That is a non-sequitor. A.) Because Polamalu and Reed aren't corners, and weren't to begin with, and B.) Champ Bailey is a top player at a cornerstone position.

[Slick]

I wouldn't mind seeing Del Rio use Champ like Dom Capers does Charles Woodson. One of our DC's used to blitz Champ every once in a while. I forget who it was.

[Cugel]

Four positions: QB, LT, DE/OLB, CB.

You DO NOT move any player who is an elite talent at any one of those four positions to another position. Ever.

Why are people so obsessed with moving a top CB to FS and a top DE/OLB to MLB?

Can we end this debate now? Exactly correct!

[Ravage!!!]

the pittsburg steelers and the baltimore ravens disagree.
they must be defensive idiots.
the rest of the NFL must be right.
I am retarded for wanting our best defensive athlete,
text book tackler and exceptional ball hawk to play safety.
I am an idiot, just like that ass-clown running the defense in pittsburg

This doesn't make sense, Zam. Did the Steelers or Ravens move a top corner to be safety? Was Ed Reed or Polo a corner to begin with? Or did they just draft a player at Safety that has turned to be great? Lets not forget, the Steelers and Ravens defense were great before having Ed Reed and Polo. The Ravens haven't won a Super Bowl since having Reed, and the Steelers didn't win one before Roth.

Whats making you look like an idiot, is that your insistance that the rest of the NFL DCs aren't "smart enough" to see what you THINK you see. WHats making you look like an idiot is the insistance that ALLLLl Champ does is "live on his reputation, and follow decoys." What's making you look like an idiot is not that you can see the Raven and Steelers have a top defense, its just everything else that has come from your posts.

[MOtorboat]

I wouldn't mind seeing Del Rio use Champ like Dom Capers does Charles Woodson. One of our DC's used to blitz Champ every once in a while. I forget who it was.

Yes. A much more reasonable "change" at cornerback.

[Chef Zambini]

CHAMP is great at the corner blitz !
but he resents being used in that role.

[MOtorboat]

CHAMP is great at the corner blitz !
but he resents being used in that role.

How in the hell could you possibly know that?

FFS

[Ravage!!!]

CHAMP is great at the corner blitz !
but he resents being used in that role.

I call HORSE SHIT.

[Cugel]

This doesn't make sense, Zam. Did the Steelers or Ravens move a top corner to be safety? Was Ed Reed or Polo a corner to begin with? Or did they just draft a player at Safety that has turned to be great? Lets not forget, the Steelers and Ravens defense were great before having Ed Reed and Polo. The Ravens haven't won a Super Bowl since having Reed, and the Steelers didn't win one before Roth.

Whats making you look like an idiot, is that your insistance that the rest of the NFL DCs aren't "smart enough" to see what you THINK you see. WHats making you look like an idiot is the insistance that ALLLLl Champ does is "live on his reputation, and follow decoys." What's making you look like an idiot is not that you can see the Raven and Steelers have a top defense, its just everything else that has come from your posts.

There's always the possibility that what's making him "look like an idiot" is BEING an idiot!

"Do these jeans make me look fat?"
"No, your fat ass makes you look fat!"