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10-23-2007, 11:13 PM
It seemed all during the losing streak, we heard from players out of the locker
room how talented they were. My first thoughts were, of course they're going
to think they're talented. If not, they should join Kircus at the sandwich place.

Then I read this week's rankings out of the Live News feed here, and while
one writer has the Broncos at #13, the other has them at #23, saying they
just aren't that talented.

Then I start thinking of some of the individual players:

Champ
Lynch
Bly
Foxworth
D.J. Williams
Marcus Thomas
Adams
Moss
Dumervil
Crowder
Lepsis
Graham
Scheffler
Marshall
Stokley
Cutler
Henry
Young
Elam
Sauerbrun

And now even 2nd and 3rd stringers are picking up the game and playing as
if they belong in starting positions, such as Chris Meyers, Kuper, and
Martinez.

It's true that the Broncos have taken a while this year to get their stuff
together, and have even been embarrassed, as we all know. But now we
have seen them beat a very good Pittsburgh team at their own game. This,
while missing their best defensive and their best offensive player, as well as
their best offensive lineman (Nalen) and a solid starter at guard (Hamilton).

Personally, I think the Broncos are loaded. We may see that talent come
out in spades this year, and we may not, depending on how they jell. But
they are loaded, nonetheless.

What do you think?

-----

lex
10-23-2007, 11:35 PM
It seemed all during the losing streak, we heard from players out of the locker
room how talented they were. My first thoughts were, of course they're going
to think they're talented. If not, they should join Kircus at the sandwich place.

Then I read this week's rankings out of the Live News feed here, and while
one writer has the Broncos at #13, the other has them at #23, saying they
just aren't that talented.

Then I start thinking of some of the individual players:

Champ
Lynch
Bly
Foxworth
D.J. Williams
Marcus Thomas
Adams
Moss
Dumervil
Crowder
Lepsis
Graham
Scheffler
Marshall
Stokley
Cutler
Henry
Young
Elam
Sauerbrun

And now even 2nd and 3rd stringers are picking up the game and playing as
if they belong in starting positions, such as Chris Meyers, Kuper, and
Martinez.

It's true that the Broncos have taken a while this year to get their stuff
together, and have even been embarrassed, as we all know. But now we
have seen them beat a very good Pittsburgh team at their own game. This,
while missing their best defensive and their best offensive player, as well as
their best offensive lineman (Nalen) and a solid starter at guard (Hamilton).

Personally, I think the Broncos are loaded. We may see that talent come
out in spades this year, and we may not, depending on how they jell. But
they are loaded, nonetheless.

What do you think?

-----

I agree absolutely and completely. I just watched a 4th round rookie neutralize a perennial all pro guard Sunday night. I saw a team that is built front to back--and no team is built front to back like the Steelers-- have their strength neutralized by rookies and a second year guy. BTW, a lot of Pittsburghs bigger gains came when Marcus Thomas was not in the game. Im not sure if anyone else noticed this. When you see a team thats trying to find their way do that well against one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, thats cause for optimism. I dont care what anyone says. And the best part is that Moss hasnt even hit his stride yet. Sunday night was mostly Dumervil but also Thomas. Were fortunate to also have Crowder. Im carrying on about teh Dline because when you have that kind of talent on in the trenches it can go a long way.

The only thing I dont like is the offensive lines inability to function in short yardage. When watching the game live, I chalked it up to Myers and Kuper starting at their positions for the first time but when I watched it on DVR, I realized that it was Lepsis whiffing on a lot of blocks. I noticed that a few times where Lepsis completely whiffed and if he would have made any contact it would have provided the RB some kind of crease. Casey Hampton was submarining Myers but holy hell. Hampton might be the best NT in the NFL and the play wasnt going there anyway. The real breakdown came with Lepsis whiffing.

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10-23-2007, 11:57 PM
I agree absolutely and completely. I just watched a 4th round rookie neutralize a perennial all pro guard Sunday night. I saw a team that is built front to back--and no team is built front to back like the Steelers-- have their strength neutralized by rookies and a second year guy. BTW, a lot of Pittsburghs bigger gains came when Marcus Thomas was not in the game. Im not sure if anyone else noticed this. When you see a team thats trying to find their way do that well against one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, thats cause for optimism. I dont care what anyone says. And the best part is that Moss hasnt even hit his stride yet. Sunday night was mostly Dumervil but also Thomas. Were fortunate to also have Crowder. Im carrying on about teh Dline because when you have that kind of talent on in the trenches it can go a long way.

The only thing I dont like is the offensive lines inability to function in short yardage. When watching the game live, I chalked it up to Myers and Kuper starting at their positions for the first time but when I watched it on DVR, I realized that it was Lepsis whiffing on a lot of blocks. I noticed that a few times where Lepsis completely whiffed and if he would have made any contact it would have provided the RB some kind of crease. Casey Hampton was submarining Myers but holy hell. Hampton might be the best NT in the NFL and the play wasnt going there anyway. The real breakdown came with Lepsis whiffing.

Good input regarding Thomas and Lepsis. Maybe Lepsis is still recovering
from his injury. A lot of players have not even come back from that kind of
injury. However, there is really no one who can replace Lepsis. Pears was
adequate at best . . . and who would play RT, anyway? We have some fine
talent on the OL, but that is one area where the Broncos are no longer
deep, with the injuruies they've had.

-----

omac
10-24-2007, 12:08 AM
It seemed all during the losing streak, we heard from players out of the locker
room how talented they were. My first thoughts were, of course they're going
to think they're talented. If not, they should join Kircus at the sandwich place.

Then I read this week's rankings out of the Live News feed here, and while
one writer has the Broncos at #13, the other has them at #23, saying they
just aren't that talented.

Then I start thinking of some of the individual players:

Champ
Lynch
Bly
Foxworth
D.J. Williams
Marcus Thomas
Adams
Moss
Dumervil
Crowder
Lepsis
Graham
Scheffler
Marshall
Stokley
Cutler
Henry
Young
Elam
Sauerbrun

And now even 2nd and 3rd stringers are picking up the game and playing as
if they belong in starting positions, such as Chris Meyers, Kuper, and
Martinez.

It's true that the Broncos have taken a while this year to get their stuff
together, and have even been embarrassed, as we all know. But now we
have seen them beat a very good Pittsburgh team at their own game. This,
while missing their best defensive and their best offensive player, as well as
their best offensive lineman (Nalen) and a solid starter at guard (Hamilton).

Personally, I think the Broncos are loaded. We may see that talent come
out in spades this year, and we may not, depending on how they jell. But
they are loaded, nonetheless.

What do you think?

-----

Of the players you've listed, I consider most of them to be top-tier or have the potential to be top-tier. Not too sure of Foxworth, or just how good Adams still is, though.

topscribe
10-24-2007, 12:19 AM
Of the players you've listed, I consider most of them to be top-tier or have the potential to be top-tier. Not too sure of Foxworth, or just how good Adams still is, though.

I believe Foxy is extremely talented, not necessarily as a starter, but as a
nickel back and a backup. That was what I was thinking there. I don't believe
too many teams have a #3 as good as Foxy.

Adams is no longer the Pro Bowler he once was, but he holds his own. That
was exactly what was asked of him. And now that they have apparently
changed the scheme to be more fitting for Thomas, coupled with his ongoing
accumulation of experience, the Broncos have some pretty good talent
between the two. However as Lex implied, that does not go for the depth at
the position. They are awfully thin there. I do wish they would have kept
Warren until the end of the year. I was becoming somewhat disenchanted
with him, but he was better than anything we had behind Adams and Thomas.

-----

dogfish
10-24-2007, 12:28 AM
hah. . . you don't know what kircus is capable of!



:huh:


:lol:



IF we had everybody healthy i think we've got quality talent at the skill positions, at corner and everywhere on offense-- IMO depth is a bit of a problem at both RB and WR, but the top starters stack up well against what i'd consider the league average. . . one of the problems, though, is that a lot of our best talent is either really young or getting old-- we really only have a few talented vets who are in their true prime, and losing javon costs us one of our best. . . i think the future is bright with guys like dumervil, marshall, cutler and scheffler, but right now we're still seeing flashes more than consistent results. . .

i'm afraid the lines are another matter, though. . . the defensive end position is loaded with potential, but behind marcus thomas we've got nothing at tackle. . . and while i like some of our young OLs, it's not like we have a bunch of elite athletes there-- more like solid guys who will work hard to get the job done. . . we've gotten by with that in the past, but nalen and lepsis were remarkable guys-- you can't expect every late-round pick to develop into a franchise cornerstone, and our line at it's height also had a certain hall of fame finalist at left tackle that we acquired through free agency. . .

IMO this team needs to continue putting resources into the lines to build them up to the point where they match the talent of the skill positions and really let them show off their stuff. . . i also think that safety and linebacker are in desperate need of a talent infusion. . . i do think that we've gotten much better at drafting over the past few years. . . we're seeing guys like foxworth and myers hang around and make solid contributions to the club, and players like marshall and dumervil already look like long-term core players. . . hopefully that trend will continue and we can rebuild our depth with good players instead of some of the scrubs and retreads we've been working with for a lot of the past decade. . .

omac
10-24-2007, 12:36 AM
hah. . . you don't know what kircus is capable of!



:huh:


:lol:



IF we had everybody healthy i think we've got quality talent at the skill positions, at corner and everywhere on offense-- IMO depth is a bit of a problem at both RB and WR, but the top starters stack up well against what i'd consider the league average. . . one of the problems, though, is that a lot of our best talent is either really young or getting old-- we really only have a few talented vets who are in their true prime, and losing javon costs us one of our best. . . i think the future is bright with guys like dumervil, marshall, cutler and scheffler, but right now we're still seeing flashes more than consistent results. . .

i'm afraid the lines are another matter, though. . . the defensive end position is loaded with potential, but behind marcus thomas we've got nothing at tackle. . . and while i like some of our young OLs, it's not like we have a bunch of elite athletes there-- more like solid guys who will work hard to get the job done. . . we've gotten by with that in the past, but nalen and lepsis were remarkable guys-- you can't expect every late-round pick to develop into a franchise cornerstone, and our line at it's height also had a certain hall of fame finalist at left tackle that we acquired through free agency. . .

IMO this team needs to continue putting resources into the lines to build them up to the point where they match the talent of the skill positions and really let them show off their stuff. . . i also think that safety and linebacker are in desperate need of a talent infusion. . . i do think that we've gotten much better at drafting over the past few years. . . we're seeing guys like foxworth and myers hang around and make solid contributions to the club, and players like marshall and dumervil already look like long-term core players. . . hopefully that trend will continue and we can rebuild our depth with good players instead of some of the scrubs and retreads we've been working with for a lot of the past decade. . .

Real nice post! :salute:

I still think Kircus could be really good, though.

omac
10-24-2007, 12:41 AM
I believe Foxy is extremely talented, not necessarily as a starter, but as a
nickel back and a backup. That was what I was thinking there. I don't believe
too many teams have a #3 as good as Foxy.

Adams is no longer the Pro Bowler he once was, but he holds his own. That
was exactly what was asked of him. And now that they have apparently
changed the scheme to be more fitting for Thomas, coupled with his ongoing
accumulation of experience, the Broncos have some pretty good talent
between the two. However as Lex implied, that does not go for the depth at
the position. They are awfully thin there. I do wish they would have kept
Warren until the end of the year. I was becoming somewhat disenchanted
with him, but he was better than anything we had behind Adams and Thomas.

-----

I guess maybe some of the weak tackling Foxy's done earlier in the season is clouding my objectivity.

Well, for me, attitude is a big thing, so I'd rather let Warren go, than keep him here when he's not acting like a team player. I'd take lack of talent over lack of character. :cheers:

SBboundBRONCOS
10-24-2007, 12:42 AM
i think i depends on the team you follow, i try to ask the question about how much i know about the other team before judging them or their fans based on what they think of us. because honestly i dont know much about other teams avg players i guess you could say.

for example DJ Williams, we see him as a very good LB and potentially a great MLB but i looks at it form the outside and honestly if i was from another city i could probably say ive never heard of him same could go for a lot of players on this team

so while we think we have extreme talent so could the texans fans about their team. its a hard situation to jusge because even the non homers think more of there players than other teams players jus based on who they know and they know more bronco player than any other teams

with that said i think we are very talented and if we can fully break out of our shell and stretch our wings we could scare some team offensivly near the end of the season, because i can almost guarentee things will not go smoothly all season for such young team.

i do like this new O line more now though, O line is all about relationships and what the other guy is doing next to you and now we have a lot of the second teamers playing together and have good relationships. like Meyers to cutler last year while cutler was behind plummer and then moving kuper up. i think its a great thing, hopefully harris can significantly contribute soon

lex
10-24-2007, 12:48 AM
hah. . . you don't know what kircus is capable of!



:huh:


:lol:



IF we had everybody healthy i think we've got quality talent at the skill positions, at corner and everywhere on offense-- IMO depth is a bit of a problem at both RB and WR, but the top starters stack up well against what i'd consider the league average. . . one of the problems, though, is that a lot of our best talent is either really young or getting old-- we really only have a few talented vets who are in their true prime, and losing javon costs us one of our best. . . i think the future is bright with guys like dumervil, marshall, cutler and scheffler, but right now we're still seeing flashes more than consistent results. . .

i'm afraid the lines are another matter, though. . . the defensive end position is loaded with potential, but behind marcus thomas we've got nothing at tackle. . . and while i like some of our young OLs, it's not like we have a bunch of elite athletes there-- more like solid guys who will work hard to get the job done. . . we've gotten by with that in the past, but nalen and lepsis were remarkable guys-- you can't expect every late-round pick to develop into a franchise cornerstone, and our line at it's height also had a certain hall of fame finalist at left tackle that we acquired through free agency. . .

IMO this team needs to continue putting resources into the lines to build them up to the point where they match the talent of the skill positions and really let them show off their stuff. . . i also think that safety and linebacker are in desperate need of a talent infusion. . . i do think that we've gotten much better at drafting over the past few years. . . we're seeing guys like foxworth and myers hang around and make solid contributions to the club, and players like marshall and dumervil already look like long-term core players. . . hopefully that trend will continue and we can rebuild our depth with good players instead of some of the scrubs and retreads we've been working with for a lot of the past decade. . .


What does everyone think of Porkchop Womack and Sean Locklear? Both have been playing for Seattle. Locklear weighs around 310 and Womack weighs around 330. I wonder how much they would cost?

broncosfanscott
10-24-2007, 01:26 AM
I personally think we have a lot of talented players on both sides of the ball, yet it may not seem that way to others since we haven't put together a complete game until last Sunday. The Steeler game was our coming out party this year and if we can duplicate it for the next few weeks and get a winning streak going then more people will see what we are capable of doing.

Lex, nice comments on Lepsis. I totally agree with you and once I read your post I remember a few plays that he totally whiffed on, just didn't catch it right away because during a live game you can't really catch everything.

Despite the players that were inactive, we still played a solid offensive game against a good defensive team.

One more note on the Crowder fumble return........he has got some speed. :D

Grover
10-24-2007, 11:47 AM
Is this team loaded with talent?

I'd say the team is loaded with potential. But right now there are many young players and many others gimping around with injuries.

If we can string together more than one game where we play with fire and abandon like the Pittsburgh game, then you will see the talent take hold and us becoming a great team.

It's fun to root for our guys when we follow them from college, to draft hopefulls, to actually being drafted, then progress through training camp, then on to game time. It's fun seeing all the time and work pay off, and the development of the players.

But if I had to look realistically at our team right now, the only position I see as elite is our Cornerback tandem, with Foxworth a really good nickel option.

The offensive and defensive lines are both a work in progress. Our running backs are injured and/or inexperienced. Our Safeties are strong in run support and weak in coverage; and Linebackers are coming along, but are "lost in space" a lot of the time. We're down to one good healthy Tight End and our Quarterback is really exciting - in both good and bad ways.

It seems like the team is learning to play together finally and reacting better. I'm hopeful about the remainder of the season and I think next year will be the year we can say we're loaded with talent AND experience all across the team.

topscribe
10-24-2007, 12:09 PM
But if I had to look realistically at our team right now, the only position I see as elite is our Cornerback tandem, with Foxworth a really good nickel option.


I would say Javon is elite. Elam, also. An eight-time Pro Bowler, such as Lynch,
is elite . . . how could he not be? I would have to say Henry is in that status,
or close (if he's not suspended). Of course, Nalen was. And Stokley, as one
of the very best slot receivers (Shanny thinks he is the best, although I think
Welker would have an argument there), would have to fit into that category.
Graham would be close, as a blocking TE. So would our punter Sauerbrun.

Among the players on their way to becoming elite: Cutler, Marshall,
Scheffler, Thomas, Moss, and Dumervil. Myers and Kuper seem to have a
shot at that, too, eventually, as well as Williams.


But, in my mind, talent does not have to be synonymous with elite. If the
team has a good player in a given position, they have talent there.

-----

DenBronx
10-24-2007, 12:30 PM
i love the talent that we have on this team. for some reason its just taken way to long for them to all mesh. then add in injuries, new schemes, new coaches and off field issues then i can see why we struggled. im just glad that some guys are stepping up to the plate like dumervil and bly.

cutler is starting to really take leadership and i love the dudes composure. he does need to scramble when he can though like he did last week because he is pretty fast for his size. as time goes on im pretty sure he not make rookie mistakes.

if bailey can get back to pro bowl form and walker comes back soon with no issues then i think we can be a playoff team and maybe we'll give the chargers hell next time we meet.

cpr940
10-24-2007, 12:55 PM
Talent is not an issue for most teams.

The talent difference, by an large, between the vast majority of teams is razor thin. Sure, occaisonally, you'll see a team truly loaded ('07 Pats) or a complete talent wasteland (1992 Seattle Seahawks.....14 offensive touchdowns the entire season!), but those are aberrations

There is some luck involved with injuries.

But the teams that compete consistently draft well, and manage the cap well. This speaks to great scouting and a well run front office.

TXBRONC
10-24-2007, 01:34 PM
I would say that we have some very talented starting players.

While I agree with you Top that Adams is holding his own, he isn't being to do much to begin with. That's meant to be a slam, it's just he is obviously on the downside of his career. So we do need one more DT to team up with Thomas who is on the brink of being a beast.

I think it is evident now that we are needing younger players at the safety, while both Lynch and Ferguson are solid against the run they are both a liability in pass coverage.

Requiem / The Dagda
10-24-2007, 01:47 PM
This team has a lot of talent and a lot of potential, but they've yet to live up to it. Denver has one elite player on their roster and that's Champ Bailey. That's a given, the rest are debatable. We have a lot of young players for the future, but our rookies this year and even some from last year aren't "there" yet and likely won't be there for another year or so.

Loaded with talent, but few quality players. I hope that they'll assume to the level which they're capable of, but Denver's like a lot of other teams out there. A lot of young players, a lot of young talent, but not much of it has been realized yet, and truth be told - a lot of those young players will more than likely not end up panning out. It's just how things go.

Denver over the past three seasons have drafted quality prospects at many offensive and defensive positions, I hope they can keep it up because with the injuries and age of some veterans at several positions, they could use it.

Tned
10-24-2007, 01:50 PM
Is this team loaded with talent?

I'd say the team is loaded with potential. But right now there are many young players and many others gimping around with injuries.



I started to agree with the subject of this thread, but I read this before posting, and have to agree with the above instead. I think Grover is right in that the team is loaded with potential, and that we are seeing flashes of that potential every once in a while, like Marshal a couple weeks ago, Scheffler and Cutler on Sunday, etc.

A breakdown:

Corners: Immensly talented.
Linebackers: Middle of the pack at worst, possibly a better than average.
D-Line: Now, sub-par. Potential? Anyone's guess.
O-Line: Middle or lower in pass protection (although more games like Sunday and my opinion might change). Run blucking, good to great, we don't know exactly where this line stands. Overall, not among the elite lines.
TE's: Not elite, but next level.
RB's: Decent fullback, good RB, especially in Denver system.
QB: A 2nd year QB and playing like it. Some good game and good plays, and some bad. TONs of potential, but only time will tell how long, or ever if, he realizes that potential.

Punting/Kicking: The guys booting the ball are among the best, the guys covering and returning the kicks are among the league's worst.

So, the reality is that when you look at the Broncos 'right now' in the ESPN's Scouts, Inc. matchups where they matchup teams at each position, again 'right now' the Broncos units will often lose out in those matchups. However, given time. Maybe this year, maybe next. That could start changing.

Watchthemiddle
10-24-2007, 02:06 PM
Well after reading through the responses my mind has gone back and forth several times..:laugh:

I agree with Dream that we only have one elite player and thats Champ.

We have several great players..Elam, Nalen, Lynch, Walker ( when healthy ), but thats about it.

All others at this point have that "P" in front of them. Potential. Some have proven their potential over the years on other teams ... Stokley, Adams, Henry, but are now trying to fit in with all the new potential we have...Cutler, Marshall, Sheffler, DJ, Foxworth, Crowder, Moss, Thomas, Dumerville ( well on his way to greatness).

We don't NEED a team of elite players, We don't need a team of great players...we need a TEAM of good players that play well as a team. I believe we have that. I believe we are talented and this team right now is still trying to find its identity with all the talent that we do have. This could be the year where we all watch exciting football but don't always come out on top. I believe this talent we do have just needs ONE complete season together before they explode on the scene and become a very scary team around the NFL.

:salute:

Grover
10-24-2007, 05:47 PM
A lot of good points made by everyone.

I LIKE the fact that this team has gone through some adversity and hard times. But I'm not talking about the tragic deaths of teammates , I'm talking about the play this season. I think the problems have caused everyone to do a bit of self examination and coaches and players should come out better for it.

So we've been talking about talent and potential, which are great things to recognize in your team. What we aren't talking about, because it's absent, is hype and bravado.

I don't see players (with the exception of Simeon Rice) saying how great they are and then not being able to go out and prove it on the field. What I'm seeing out of the team is a desire to play well and to be competitive. Take that desire, combine it with the talent we do have, and we will be better than all right this year.

In fact, my Rose Colored Glasses are half full today, so I'll predict the Broncos will be atop the AFC West at season's end.

Can't have the Rockies getting all the glory.

Medford Bronco
10-24-2007, 05:52 PM
I started to agree with the subject of this thread, but I read this before posting, and have to agree with the above instead. I think Grover is right in that the team is loaded with potential, and that we are seeing flashes of that potential every once in a while, like Marshal a couple weeks ago, Scheffler and Cutler on Sunday, etc.

A breakdown:

Corners: Immensly talented.
Linebackers: Middle of the pack at worst, possibly a better than average.
D-Line: Now, sub-par. Potential? Anyone's guess.
O-Line: Middle or lower in pass protection (although more games like Sunday and my opinion might change). Run blucking, good to great, we don't know exactly where this line stands. Overall, not among the elite lines.
TE's: Not elite, but next level.
RB's: Decent fullback, good RB, especially in Denver system.
QB: A 2nd year QB and playing like it. Some good game and good plays, and some bad. TONs of potential, but only time will tell how long, or ever if, he realizes that potential.

Punting/Kicking: The guys booting the ball are among the best, the guys covering and returning the kicks are among the league's worst.

So, the reality is that when you look at the Broncos 'right now' in the ESPN's Scouts, Inc. matchups where they matchup teams at each position, again 'right now' the Broncos units will often lose out in those matchups. However, given time. Maybe this year, maybe next. That could start changing.

This is a great post Tned:salute:

I agree on most counts.
The only thing I see a bit diffrently is LBs, I say the have been way below average this year and need someone to step up besides DJ and fill the big shoes and loss of Al Wilson.

TXBRONC
10-24-2007, 05:55 PM
This is a great post Tned:salute:

I agree on most counts.
The only thing I see a bit diffrently is LBs, I say the have been way below average this year and need someone to step up besides DJ and fill the big shoes and loss of Al Wilson.


It was a given D.J. was going to step up, because he's my adoptee. :laugh:

topscribe
10-24-2007, 10:45 PM
I would say that we have some very talented starting players.

While I agree with you Top that Adams is holding his own, he isn't being to do much to begin with. That's meant to be a slam, it's just he is obviously on the downside of his career. So we do need one more DT to team up with Thomas who is on the brink of being a beast.

I think it is evident now that we are needing younger players at the safety, while both Lynch and Ferguson are solid against the run they are both a liability in pass coverage.

You know, I keep hearing that about the safeties. While I agree Ferguson is
not the greatest in pass coverage, I can't agree about Lynch. I know it looks
as if he's getting beaten sometimes, but most of the time, after further
review, he has been coming over from another part of the field, trying to
get to the receiver.

I think people assume a bit much because Lynch is not very fast. But the
guy's anticipation is uncanny. Personally, I think Lynch is pretty decent in
the passing game, as well as superlative in the running game. He's a
perenniel Pro Bowler for a reason.

Indeed, I watched both Lynch and Polamalu as best I could last Sunday,
and I really though Lynch outplayed Polamalu, at least for three quarters.
Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. Perhaps there's an orange cast to my view.
But I loved the way Lynch played that game.

-----

dogfish
10-24-2007, 11:16 PM
You know, I keep hearing that about the safeties. While I agree Ferguson is
not the greatest in pass coverage, I can't agree about Lynch. I know it looks
as if he's getting beaten sometimes, but most of the time, after further
review, he has been coming over from another part of the field, trying to
get to the receiver.

I think people assume a bit much because Lynch is not very fast. But the
guy's anticipation is uncanny. Personally, I think Lynch is pretty decent in
the passing game, as well as superlative in the running game. He's a
perenniel Pro Bowler for a reason.

Indeed, I watched both Lynch and Polamalu as best I could last Sunday,
and I really though Lynch outplayed Polamalu, at least for three quarters.
Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. Perhaps there's an orange cast to my view.
But I loved the way Lynch played that game.

-----



i've got to agree with TX that they tend to be a liability in pass coverage-- more specifically, i would say that we have to go out of our way to "hide" them with the scheme. . . while they both have decent instincts in zone coverage (lynch's, of course, are outstanding), they simply don't have the footspeed for man coverage any more-- and i'm almost certain that dictates our coverages more than any DC would really like. . . to wit: when's the last time you saw our safeties consistently covering a good TE man to man throughout a game? most likely the last time we had sam brandon on the field. . . looks to me like we almost always cover good TEs with our LBs (who have been getting their butts whipped at the assignment), or try to put a corner on them. . .

of course you could say that it's every coordinator's job to maximize the strengths and hide the weaknesses of his players, and that's very true-- but the best solution is to get guys who have fewer weaknesses when possible. . . i know you force more underneath and inside stuff when you have the corners we do, and the ball has to go somewhere, but tight ends have been absolutely KILLING us. . . to the tune of 66 yards (30th in the league) and exactly one TD (31st) per game on average. . . yes, we've certainly played against some very good TEs, but so have lots of other teams-- we're not the only ones to face gates and clark, and when we had brandon we did MUCH better against some of the same guys. . .


in any case, irregardless of whether you consider our current guys a liability in coverage, i would say that TX's ultimate point that "we need younger players at safety" certainly holds true. . . no matter how brilliant lynch's career has been, he can't play forever, and ferguson isn't getting any younger either. . .cox is a solid reserve who has a lot of value as a versatile depth player and special teamer-- but he hasn't impressed at all when he's had the chance to start, and it's probably asking too much of him. . . hamza is an unknown-- he has potential, but pinning all our hopes for the position on him probably isn't a good idea. . .

my belief is that we really don't need flashy, big name talents at safety to get by-- bates never had any big name all-pro types in miami, but his defenses were always good. . . we can get by with solid guys who know their assignments and tackle well, but some more range would really be a benefit. . . at the very least, it's time to start developing some young depth for the future. . .

topscribe
10-24-2007, 11:38 PM
i've got to agree with TX that they tend to be a liability in pass coverage-- more specifically, i would say that we have to go out of our way to "hide" them with the scheme. . . while they both have decent instincts in zone coverage (lynch's, of course, are outstanding), they simply don't have the footspeed for man coverage any more-- and i'm almost certain that dictates our coverages more than any DC would really like. . . to wit: when's the last time you saw our safeties consistently covering a good TE man to man throughout a game? most likely the last time we had sam brandon on the field. . . looks to me like we almost always cover good TEs with our LBs (who have been getting their butts whipped at the assignment), or try to put a corner on them. . .

of course you could say that it's every coordinator's job to maximize the strengths and hide the weaknesses of his players, and that's very true-- but the best solution is to get guys who have fewer weaknesses when possible. . . i know you force more underneath and inside stuff when you have the corners we do, and the ball has to go somewhere, but tight ends have been absolutely KILLING us. . . to the tune of 66 yards (30th in the league) and exactly one TD (31st) per game on average. . . yes, we've certainly played against some very good TEs, but so have lots of other teams-- we're not the only ones to face gates and clark, and when we had brandon we did MUCH better against some of the same guys. . .


in any case, irregardless of whether you consider our current guys a liability in coverage, i would say that TX's ultimate point that "we need younger players at safety" certainly holds true. . . no matter how brilliant lynch's career has been, he can't play forever, and ferguson isn't getting any younger either. . .cox is a solid reserve who has a lot of value as a versatile depth player and special teamer-- but he hasn't impressed at all when he's had the chance to start, and it's probably asking too much of him. . . hamza is an unknown-- he has potential, but pinning all our hopes for the position on him probably isn't a good idea. . .

my belief is that we really don't need flashy, big name talents at safety to get by-- bates never had any big name all-pro types in miami, but his defenses were always good. . . we can get by with solid guys who know their assignments and tackle well, but some more range would really be a benefit. . . at the very least, it's time to start developing some young depth for the future. . .

Thanks for some good points, both you and TX.

The type of safety you describe in your final paragraph: Abdullah, maybe?

-----

Stargazer
10-25-2007, 12:29 AM
This team has a good amount of talent, but there needs to be upgrades that will be accomplish after the season is over.

upgrades to the S position
upgrades to the LB position
upgrades to atleast one of the DT positions
upgrades to the offensive line. T have been playing poorly.
upgrade at RB if Henry is booted for a year.
upgrade to WR position

This team definately needs more talent to be an elite contender.

Requiem / The Dagda
10-25-2007, 12:56 AM
Denver's safeties play in a deep Cover 2 zone most of the time for coverage assignments, if you're getting beat playing that - you suck. In which case Nick Ferguson does. Let's replace him with Myron Rolle.

DenBronx
10-25-2007, 01:34 AM
im excited to see what myers can do now that nalen is gone. he did excellent last week and so did kuper. but myers kinda shocked me and they actually bought cutler more time....this means more points and cutler doesnt have to rush to make a pass. and it was against the #1 defense the steelers....so im pretty sure it wasnt a fluke.

TXBRONC
10-25-2007, 12:58 PM
i've got to agree with TX that they tend to be a liability in pass coverage-- more specifically, i would say that we have to go out of our way to "hide" them with the scheme. . . while they both have decent instincts in zone coverage (lynch's, of course, are outstanding), they simply don't have the footspeed for man coverage any more-- and i'm almost certain that dictates our coverages more than any DC would really like. . . to wit: when's the last time you saw our safeties consistently covering a good TE man to man throughout a game? most likely the last time we had sam brandon on the field. . . looks to me like we almost always cover good TEs with our LBs (who have been getting their butts whipped at the assignment), or try to put a corner on them. . .

of course you could say that it's every coordinator's job to maximize the strengths and hide the weaknesses of his players, and that's very true-- but the best solution is to get guys who have fewer weaknesses when possible. . . i know you force more underneath and inside stuff when you have the corners we do, and the ball has to go somewhere, but tight ends have been absolutely KILLING us. . . to the tune of 66 yards (30th in the league) and exactly one TD (31st) per game on average. . . yes, we've certainly played against some very good TEs, but so have lots of other teams-- we're not the only ones to face gates and clark, and when we had brandon we did MUCH better against some of the same guys. . .


in any case, irregardless of whether you consider our current guys a liability in coverage, i would say that TX's ultimate point that "we need younger players at safety" certainly holds true. . . no matter how brilliant lynch's career has been, he can't play forever, and ferguson isn't getting any younger either. . .cox is a solid reserve who has a lot of value as a versatile depth player and special teamer-- but he hasn't impressed at all when he's had the chance to start, and it's probably asking too much of him. . . hamza is an unknown-- he has potential, but pinning all our hopes for the position on him probably isn't a good idea. . .

my belief is that we really don't need flashy, big name talents at safety to get by-- bates never had any big name all-pro types in miami, but his defenses were always good. . . we can get by with solid guys who know their assignments and tackle well, but some more range would really be a benefit. . . at the very least, it's time to start developing some young depth for the future. . .


I just posted an article from PFW that says about 50% of the passing playing being called against the Broncos defense are intended for the tight end. Sunday night is great example. ALL of Roethlisberger's touchdown passes were to the tight ends if I'm not mistaken.

eessydo
10-25-2007, 02:32 PM
irregardless

I personally don't think this is a word. Why not just say regardless?

Here is what they say on dictionary.com about this pet peeve of mine.....


irregardless
an erroneous word that, etymologically, means the exact opposite of what it is used to express, attested in non-standard writing from 1912, probably a blend of irrespective and regardless. Perhaps inspired by the double negative used as an emphatic.

Usage Note: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of irrespective and regardless and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative ir- prefix and -less suffix in a single term. Although one might reasonably argue that it is no different from words with redundant affixes like debone and unravel, it has been considered a blunder for decades and will probably continue to be so.

dogfish
10-25-2007, 02:36 PM
Thanks for some good points, both you and TX.

The type of safety you describe in your final paragraph: Abdullah, maybe?

-----

possibly. . . i certainly like hamza's potential-- WA has been on his bandwagon for a while, and kaylore and socal had plenty of good things to say about him in their camp reports this year. . . but i definitely think we need to bring in some young competition at the very least-- i won't be comfortable if we put all of our eggs in that basket. . .

eugene wilson of new england and gibril wilson of the giants are two options who'll be available in free agency, and i see miami's yeremiah bell listed, but i thought they'd signed him to an extension. . . if we don't bring in a free agent, i really think we need to address the position in the draft-- most likely in the 4th or 5th, as i feel our two first day picks should be spent on the defensive front seven most likely (unless we decide to grab an OT). . . i'm sure dream can give you some likely candidates. . .

Watchthemiddle
10-25-2007, 02:37 PM
I just posted an article from PFW that says about 50% of the passing playing being called against the Broncos defense are intended for the tight end. Sunday night is great example. ALL of Roethlisberger's touchdown passes were to the tight ends if I'm not mistaken.

And that is where our LB's and Safety's need to step up and cover.

We have an athletic LB core, but they can't cover to save their lives. Our safeties are getting up there and have lost a step or two and trying to cover these young TE's like Miller is hard to do.

I think in a case like Pitt, if Champ was healthy Fox would have benn a good candidate to put over the TE. Remember the first year we had Champ against KC?? He blanketed Tony G. all night and he didn't do squat. Not saying Fox can do that as well, but its got to be better then we have going now.

topscribe
10-25-2007, 02:39 PM
I personally don't think this is a word. Why not just say regardless?

Here is what they say on dictionary.com about this pet peeve of mine.....

And this is extremely off-topic and unnecessary. As a former English teacher
on the high school level, I could have pointed that out. However, I would like
to see any but a handful of posters here to write at Dogfish's level.

I take a dim view of grammatical rebuke on a football message board. Dogfish
is secure with himself and has broad shoulders, but we take the chance of
discouraging a less adept writer from even posting here if we start correcting
grammar and spelling. So it just is not a good idea.

Now, :focus:

-----

Requiem / The Dagda
10-25-2007, 02:56 PM
It'd be wise not to bank on the hopes, potential and feel good stories given by veteran players like John Lynch and Champ Bailey regarding players like Abdullah and Cox. They're role players for a reason, they are not long-term options at starter.

Lonestar
10-25-2007, 03:56 PM
Overall I see no truly weak spots on this team weak other than DT and then depth at most spots.

I think our DB's are some of the best in the game as a whole.
Our LB's are not the strength they used to be and I think that will change when they get rid of gold.
DL is up and coming except at DT past Thomas and Adams we suck.

OLINE could be a strong point next year again if they learn to play together.
QB on of the up and comers with the jury still being out on consistency. the physical skills are great now just ave to get the mental skills in gear.

WR with Javon, Marshall and Stokely is strong as well as TE.
past these starters we drop off big time, waiting to see how much gas Rod has left in him...
RB when Thenry gets his head out of his ass is just what the doctor ordered. If hew does not we are average at best as we speak..

Lots of potential, I see a strong team NEXT year unless someone goes down by injury. They are way to young this year to be winners consistently..

TXBRONC
10-25-2007, 08:59 PM
I have one correction to make to a previous post. Ben did not throw all of his touchdown passes to his tight ends. One of them was to his wide receiver Antonio Holmes.