View Full Version : How to set up a civic experiment in failure
Uncle Buck
10-23-2007, 11:10 PM
1. Establish a civic organization. [Name your poison: Government at the national level, state level, city level, neighborhood level, Internet level.]
2. Set forth a set of rules or precepts, under which all of the constituents agree to live by. Many will gleefully agree/pledge-to-adhere-to at first…before individual egos set in.
3. Once item 2 is struggling against failure, the erstwhile participants in the “community” argue over such things as what is wrong and who is doing what to remedy the situation.
4. “Charter members” of this newly founded “board,” egos bruised, talk down to any and all upstarts who would dare to challenge anything from self-absorbed wisdom, to time in grade in the newly founded “government” itself.
Sure, this is just another Internet based “board.” Yet, doesn’t it smack of the reality of how people operate in the non-virtual level?
Yeah, so the balloon is deflated.
This is reality, baby. The “virtual” world of the Internet is just as real as the so-called “real world.”
Same petty bickering, different venue.
I just think it’s time to have some fun in here, for a change. I’ve been guilty of arguing in certain (and appropriate) forums, for sure. But, I’ve also found there to be no winners in these forums (such as P&R).
In light of the above, I’m gonna attempt to restrict my posts to just such on-topic subjects as football, baseball and the “What’s on your Mind?”
Life is too short to neglect the simpler things such as just having some fun, without pissin’ off yer neighbor! <grin>
I just think it’s time to have some fun in here, for a change. I’ve been guilty of arguing in certain (and appropriate) forums, for sure. But, I’ve also found there to be no winners in these forums (such as P&R).
In light of the above, I’m gonna attempt to restrict my posts to just such on-topic subjects as football, baseball and the “What’s on your Mind?”
Life is too short to neglect the simpler things such as just having some fun, without pissin’ off yer neighbor! <grin>
Good post, Buck. I was an occasional contributor of P&R on BM, but even when I strongly disagreed with someone's opinion, I never got personally upset with them, or pissed off. I might work harder to present my side of the debate, to 'win' the debate, but not get ticked off and resort to attacking (at lease I don't think I did that much ;)).
However, I know in some non-P&R debates, such as the CP system/negs or whether or not thread starters should be able to delete threads they started, regardless of the number of replies to it, where I actually enjoyed the 'game' that is the debate, I found out that some people got very upset with me because I was coming off as unmovable, arrogant, obstinate, etc. I was actually pretty surprised after the fact to some of the reactions I got from those discussions. Surprised by some of the heated PM discussions that spawned from the open debate.
To me, even when the topic is serious (not that CP was serious), I think people lose sight of the fact that they are not going to change other people's core values and belief systems. I find it very hard to understand why people lose sight of that simple, yet incontrovertible fact. Hence, why can't people choose to be involved or not, in this 'game' of debate, but not take it personally when people don't agree or become converts to your personal viewpoints.
As to your comments about how these online communities mirror real life, there is no doubt about it.
Many years ago (10, 12, 15 -- can't really remember when it was), I was curious about IRC chat rooms, because they seemed so popular. I popped in and out of a few rooms, and found one chat room that had a bunch of regulars that seemed like a great group of people, so started logging in and joining the chats and became a 'regular'. However, I eventually stopped going to the chat rooms, because I didn't want to deal with the drama. These chat rooms had all the drama of real life (they referred to 'chat' life as IRC -Internet relay chat - and 'real' life as IRL -- in real life), but in many ways worse. Little mini cliques formed. People had their feelings hurt and got mad at other chat room members. Arguments as to who should be in charge, make the rules. The similarities went on and on, but in many ways greatly magnified compared to real life. It quickly became a turn off and I never checked it out again.
Let's face it, for most of us, what we deal with in IRL (in real life) can be challenging enough, without adding to it with the 'cyber' crisises. Very, very, very rarely are you going to persuade people to join 'your' side of the debate, whether it is about Jake Plummer or George Bush, whether it be about rebuilding or media bias. I think each of us need to enter the discussions, whether P&R or Broncos Talk (or any other) with that reality in mind. Have fun, make your case, but don't take it personally when people disagree with you. It doesn't mean you are wrong, it doesn't mean they are wrong, it means you disagree. Disagreement is a natural and healthy part of life, and therefore there is no reason it can't and shouldn't be a natural and healthy part of an online community.
Uncle Buck
10-25-2007, 12:28 AM
Good post, Buck. I was an occasional contributor of P&R on BM, but even when I strongly disagreed with someone's opinion, I never got personally upset with them, or pissed off. I might work harder to present my side of the debate, to 'win' the debate, but not get ticked off and resort to attacking (at lease I don't think I did that much ;)).
However, I know in some non-P&R debates, such as the CP system/negs or whether or not thread starters should be able to delete threads they started, regardless of the number of replies to it, where I actually enjoyed the 'game' that is the debate, I found out that some people got very upset with me because I was coming off as unmovable, arrogant, obstinate, etc. I was actually pretty surprised after the fact to some of the reactions I got from those discussions. Surprised by some of the heated PM discussions that spawned from the open debate.
To me, even when the topic is serious (not that CP was serious), I think people lose sight of the fact that they are not going to change other people's core values and belief systems. I find it very hard to understand why people lose sight of that simple, yet incontrovertible fact. Hence, why can't people choose to be involved or not, in this 'game' of debate, but not take it personally when people don't agree or become converts to your personal viewpoints.
As to your comments about how these online communities mirror real life, there is no doubt about it.
Many years ago (10, 12, 15 -- can't really remember when it was), I was curious about IRC chat rooms, because they seemed so popular. I popped in and out of a few rooms, and found one chat room that had a bunch of regulars that seemed like a great group of people, so started logging in and joining the chats and became a 'regular'. However, I eventually stopped going to the chat rooms, because I didn't want to deal with the drama. These chat rooms had all the drama of real life (they referred to 'chat' life as IRC -Internet relay chat - and 'real' life as IRL -- in real life), but in many ways worse. Little mini cliques formed. People had their feelings hurt and got mad at other chat room members. Arguments as to who should be in charge, make the rules. The similarities went on and on, but in many ways greatly magnified compared to real life. It quickly became a turn off and I never checked it out again.
Let's face it, for most of us, what we deal with in IRL (in real life) can be challenging enough, without adding to it with the 'cyber' crisises. Very, very, very rarely are you going to persuade people to join 'your' side of the debate, whether it is about Jake Plummer or George Bush, whether it be about rebuilding or media bias. I think each of us need to enter the discussions, whether P&R or Broncos Talk (or any other) with that reality in mind. Have fun, make your case, but don't take it personally when people disagree with you. It doesn't mean you are wrong, it doesn't mean they are wrong, it means you disagree. Disagreement is a natural and healthy part of life, and therefore there is no reason it can't and shouldn't be a natural and healthy part of an online community.
Excellent reply/response, tned!
I would have preferred to reply to this at length, but (unfortunately) I blew my productive evening in witnessing a slaughter of the Rox at the pitching hand of the Sox. <utter grimace>
But let me just sum up my input of the evening as this: as to your comparison of "IRC," vs. "IRL, it was spot on. Back in '88, when I first joined an online community, the track was fast--and the members were brash. Egos were huge and "flaming" was the name of the game.
And why? I think it could be due to the newness of the technology at the time. The term, "cyber," was in vogue in the pre-Internet community...and it is my take that the online "cyber" entities thought of themselves as more electronic than IRL.
They could be anything that their personal imaginations could allow them to be. As a by-product of this, online (cyber) relationships were rampant. Soon enough, online "love" metamorphosed into face-to-face meetings. Virtual denizens shattered the drab "real world," with the assistance of jet travel.
But, in the ensuing years--when the "virtual" met with the "real," did it last? Was the virtual so magical that it overcame the doldrums of day-to-day IRL reality?
I don't think so. It all boils down to some basic similarities: Behind every virtual entity, "handle," whatever, is a real person who owns a computer, and knows how to join a chat room or any other Internet community.
In today's more sophisticated membership of online communities (lasting communities, in particular), you cannot escape "IRL," in dreams of being a hit in the virtual world.
The worlds have merged. Virtually everyone owns a computer now.
My point? Well, actually, I don't have a point anymore… other than…
There is little difference between "real" life and "cyberspace" anymore.
And the only ones that don't get it are the "trolls." :laugh:
Excellent reply/response, tned!
I would have preferred to reply to this at length, but (unfortunately) I blew my productive evening in witnessing a slaughter of the Rox at the pitching hand of the Sox. <utter grimace>
But let me just sum up my input of the evening as this: as to your comparison of "IRC," vs. "IRL, it was spot on. Back in '88, when I first joined an online community, the track was fast--and the members were brash. Egos were huge and "flaming" was the name of the game.
And why? I think it could be due to the newness of the technology at the time. The term, "cyber," was in vogue in the pre-Internet community...and it is my take that the online "cyber" entities thought of themselves as more electronic than IRL.
They could be anything that their personal imaginations could allow them to be. As a by-product of this, online (cyber) relationships were rampant. Soon enough, online "love" metamorphosed into face-to-face meetings. Virtual denizens shattered the drab "real world," with the assistance of jet travel.
But, in the ensuing years--when the "virtual" met with the "real," did it last? Was the virtual so magical that it overcame the doldrums of day-to-day IRL reality?
I don't think so. It all boils down to some basic similarities: Behind every virtual entity, "handle," whatever, is a real person who owns a computer, and knows how to join a chat room or any other Internet community.
In today's more sophisticated membership of online communities (lasting communities, in particular), you cannot escape "IRL," in dreams of being a hit in the virtual world.
The worlds have merged. Virtually everyone owns a computer now.
My point? Well, actually, I don't have a point anymore… other than…
There is little difference between "real" life and "cyberspace" anymore.
And the only ones that don't get it are the "trolls." :laugh:
While I agree that cyber and IRL have merged to a large degree. So many people have Myspace or Facebook pages, for instance. MSN or AOL/AIM has become a way of life for many. However, there are still many that feel that the line between cyber and IRL is real and the way you behave in one (real life) does not apply to cyber (online communities/forums).
I can't tell you how many times on BM I read people defending their rude behavior or attacks as saying that it is the internet and therefore people can say or do anything they like and don't have to treat people in the same way they would if face to face.
I agree to a degree. I enjoy reading different points of view (to a degree). But it never seems to change anything. While some posters can and do post on topic, almost every thread deteriorates resulting in the same ending. I still read a lot of the threads (skipping through quite a bit of the posts though), because it is interesting to read others thoughts. But for the most part have decided to limit my responses.
I disagree that there is little difference between the real world and cyber world though. People definitely use the anonymous nature of the internet to be jerks. I have been out sharing my faith countless times and have had countless conversations with non-believers, but have never encountered the hatred that I see on these boards.
People use the anonymous attribute of the internet to be rude and go out of their way to offend. I don't believe that this is how most people would behave if they had the conversation face to face with someone.
I disagree that there is little difference between the real world and cyber world though. People definitely use the anonymous nature of the internet to be jerks. I have been out sharing my faith countless times and have had countless conversations with non-believers, but have never encountered the hatred that I see on these boards.
People use the anonymous attribute of the internet to be rude and go out of their way to offend. I don't believe that this is how most people would behave if they had the conversation face to face with someone.
I agree. That is exactly what I was attempting to say in my previous post. Many people view anonymity as the right to treat other people with a complete lack of respect and common courtesy.
Denver Native (Carol)
10-25-2007, 01:22 PM
My take on this is very simple - I do not say, within a post, anything that I would not want someone to say to me. I also try to keep that logic in pms.
Has worked real well for me so far.
My take on this is very simple - I do not say, within a post, anything that I would not want someone to say to me. I also try to keep that logic in pms.
Has worked real well for me so far.
I agree Carol, you are one of the sweetest people I have ever met on a message board, and very welcoming to all.
I agree to a degree. I enjoy reading different points of view (to a degree). But it never seems to change anything. While some posters can and do post on topic, almost every thread deteriorates resulting in the same ending. I still read a lot of the threads (skipping through quite a bit of the posts though), because it is interesting to read others thoughts. But for the most part have decided to limit my responses.
I disagree that there is little difference between the real world and cyber world though. People definitely use the anonymous nature of the internet to be jerks. I have been out sharing my faith countless times and have had countless conversations with non-believers, but have never encountered the hatred that I see on these boards.
People use the anonymous attribute of the internet to be rude and go out of their way to offend. I don't believe that this is how most people would behave if they had the conversation face to face with someone.
Similar for me. I absolutely love hearing how other people think and feel about various topics----all types throughout the board. Fewer responses than in the past and fewer threads. Yet, let's not forget that as adults, we can decipher between the rude and the civil very easily, and I, as you do, LDB, just skip right over most of the obnoxious replies that offer no value or contribution to the thread, post, or board. Sometimes, being a smartass seems to be more of the goal than stating why one agrees or disagrees with a topic. Once that occurs, threads get way off track. I agree with you as well, the internet is a tremendous difference from real life, as most people wouldn't have the confidence to talk so sharply to others in the 'real' world, and here....they just think they will never be discovered! Yet, that's not so true any longer either, right? :D
Same petty bickering, different venue.
I just think it’s time to have some fun in here, for a change. I’ve been guilty of arguing in certain (and appropriate) forums, for sure. But, I’ve also found there to be no winners in these forums (such as P&R).
In light of the above, I’m gonna attempt to restrict my posts to just such on-topic subjects as football, baseball and the “What’s on your Mind?”
Life is too short to neglect the simpler things such as just having some fun, without pissin’ off yer neighbor! <grin>
Colorful language for you, my friend, especially at the end. :D Then SOME PEOPLE promise to post an interesting story and never do, but I'm not naming names. ;)
It's not only battle of the wits though, it's battle of the ages, but perhaps more indirectly so? How does a 60 year old explain and help a 20 year old 'walk in their shoes'? It's impossible, unless you have an unusually mature 20 year old who desires to 'pay attention' from those who have experienced much more and just 'passing it on'. However, there sure has been a lot of negativity as of late. However, that seems to be a cycle of boards for various reasons, and I don't believe there's a cure for it when you have a general board that welcomes all people of all ages, races, creeds, religions, sports-loves, etc. Just bound to be disagreements----and THAT is what this message board has in common with 'real' life.
And internet love....how disgusting and interesting all at the same time. And in real life there are plenty of opportunities to meet others that are less desirable as well - so perhaps there are a few more things here like 'real' life than I posted in my reply to LDB. I just don't want to start reading posts about people ripping off there clothes, no play-by-plays for me, thank you. :eek:
And on a more personal note, I think how WE feel about the message board goes in cycles with how we feel or think about our own lives as well, and that goes with that 'step away from the board' we nearly discussed. :laugh:
In the end, somehow via a strange media, we have made friendships. We can't quite put our finger on how strong they are, or valuable, or long-lasting, but we just know....they are our friends....keepers....buds....and yes, for some, lovers. There's a trick to 'tuning out' negative people, I'm getting much better at it in my 40's than ever before---in real life, as well as on the board. I find the older I get, the more I want to laugh in between all of the heavy topics of my day, so I guess we agree once again dear buck.
Uncle Buck
10-26-2007, 12:03 AM
I can't tell you how many times on BM I read people defending their rude behavior or attacks as saying that it is the internet and therefore people can say or do anything they like and don't have to treat people in the same way they would if face to face.
Well, if that is the case, those people are really showing their true colors--either that, or they are pretty naive as to just how sophisticated the state-of-the art of "online communities are today.
Myself, I actually DO "say" (counterpart to typing) or behave in the same manner in person as I do in cyberspace. In "real life," however, I don't have to run the same level of risk in terms of the same level of misunderstanding as one does in virtual life, as I don't have to rely on canned "smileys" <emoticoms> in order to properly punctuate true intents and assorted nuances of meanings.
In light of what you stated above, tned, I think (hope) that many wouldbe "trolls" would take heed, and learn to differentiate between an honest discussion and a video game.
Yes, this is just just the "Internet," but....
Just as "you are what you eat," you are likewise "are what you type."
I haven't been doing that great of job in projecting myself, lately. Sometimes I think I've really "typed" myself into a black hole here. But, at any rate, whatever I type into this mess is real. And, as a conservative, I'm willing to accept the consequences.
Uncle Buck
10-26-2007, 02:53 PM
Colorful language for you, my friend, especially at the end. Then SOME PEOPLE promise to post an interesting story and never do, but I'm not naming names. ;)
It's not only battle of the wits though, it's battle of the ages, but perhaps more indirectly so? How does a 60 year old explain and help a 20 year old 'walk in their shoes'? It's impossible, unless you have an unusually mature 20 year old who desires to 'pay attention' from those who have experienced much more and just 'passing it on'. However, there sure has been a lot of negativity as of late. However, that seems to be a cycle of boards for various reasons, and I don't believe there's a cure for it when you have a general board that welcomes all people of all ages, races, creeds, religions, sports-loves, etc. Just bound to be disagreements----and THAT is what this message board has in common with 'real' life.
And internet love....how disgusting and interesting all at the same time. And in real life there are plenty of opportunities to meet others that are less desirable as well - so perhaps there are a few more things here like 'real' life than I posted in my reply to LDB. I just don't want to start reading posts about people ripping off there clothes, no play-by-plays for me, thank you.
And on a more personal note, I think how WE feel about the message board goes in cycles with how we feel or think about our own lives as well, and that goes with that 'step away from the board' we nearly discussed.
In the end, somehow via a strange media, we have made friendships. We can't quite put our finger on how strong they are, or valuable, or long-lasting, but we just know....they are our friends....keepers....buds....and yes, for some, lovers. There's a trick to 'tuning out' negative people, I'm getting much better at it in my 40's than ever before---in real life, as well as on the board. I find the older I get, the more I want to laugh in between all of the heavy topics of my day, so I guess we agree once again dear buck.
Well, thanks, as usual for your input, my *dear* Internet friend. Actually, whenever you have such an eclectic mix of, as you put it, “people of all ages, races, creeds, religions, sports-loves, etc.,” it’s mildly amazing that we all Rodney King as well as we do! And as for my “colorful language,” yes, slips like that, albeit just “PG” rated, are uncharacteristic of the likes of moi. Actually, I rarely swear in “real life”…. Well, with the occasional exceptions of…. Well, you know—like whenever the Broncos go to Kansas City or sumpin.’:yell:
And re your “personal note,” perhaps you have nailed it, m’dear. I’ve actually seen a bitten dog in a dog fight, go away sulking and then go ahead and bite the first dog on the block he meets! [And, no, I am not speaking of the type of dog fights that Michael Vick had participated in—I’m just speaking of a day-in-the-life, growing up in the sticks of Oregon—well before the era of spay and neutering! :D ]
So, yeah, I’ll most likely break down and return to the fray that is always guaranteed within the bounds of P&R—but will try to restrain myself in refrain from even an occasional outburst of fury, in maintenance of my “usual” mild-mannered approach--as you allege me to possess. [Stay tuned for coming attractions: Uncle Buck turns into Gentle Ben!]
As for “ripping off their clothes,” not much danger of THAT happening in such a venue of general civility and venerable repute, is there? Unless Tned is entertaining the notion of opening up a “Dallas Cheerleaders” section?! [Dallas fans: This was ONLY a joke!]
As for this unnamed individual that you know who promises “interesting”(?) stories that he(?) fails to deliver, far be it from MOI to fit such a profile in disappointment! In your honor, I shall post the next episode of “Rebecca” sometime this evening.
With Internet love, ;)
Buck
Myself, I actually DO "say" (counterpart to typing) or behave in the same manner in person as I do in cyberspace. In "real life," however, I don't have to run the same level of risk in terms of the same level of misunderstanding as one does in virtual life, as I don't have to rely on canned "smileys" <emoticoms> in order to properly punctuate true intents and assorted nuances of meanings.
I also try and treat other posters the same way that I treat people in real life. However, as I am an EXTREMELY sarcastic/dry humored person, I think online I can sometimes come across as arrogant (or other descriptions I might not want to hear), as it can be hard to fully communicate and build rapport without visual and auditory cues.
I also try and treat other posters the same way that I treat people in real life. However, as I am an EXTREMELY sarcastic/dry humored person, I think online I can sometimes come across as arrogant (or other descriptions I might not want to hear), as it can be hard to fully communicate and build rapport without visual and auditory cues.
That's why there are smilies. :D At least to help those who are unfamiliar with you, see that warm side of you, as we all do.
*May I have my limit extended please?*:D
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