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View Full Version : Do you think Shanahan is a HOFer?



sneakers
05-15-2009, 01:40 AM
If Shanahan never coached again (or even if he did) do you think he gets into the NFL Hall of Fame?


And just so that this thread doesn't start reeking like a gong farmer (look it up), you are not allowed to use these three words: McDANIELS, PLUMMER, UNICORN MARRIAGE.

Magnificent Seven
05-15-2009, 01:45 AM
Of course! He was an amazing coach! Awesome Offensive Coordinator for the 49ers! Awesome Head Coach for Denver Broncos in 90's.

Italianmobstr7
05-15-2009, 01:50 AM
Yes. He has a great winning percentage all time. He has 3 Super Bowl rings (1 from San Fran as the OC). He helped put together one of the best teams of all time in 1998. He was consistently a good head coach. Only 2 losing seasons in his 13 years in Denver. Without a doubt he is a hall of famer.

Boardin Bronco
05-15-2009, 01:51 AM
Shanahan has a strong case for the Hall of Fame and should be in, but George Seifert and Tom Flores are proof that he's certainly no lock to get there.

Lonestar
05-15-2009, 03:02 AM
Well color me stupid but mike did nothing without HALL OF FAME players.. Did not ever win a Lombardi without one of them..

In fact in 11 of those 13 years in IIRC won but ONE playoff game and got crushed in all the others they appeared in..

Sorry just having a winning record doth not make a HOF coach..

Without TD and John in DEN he won squat.. I do not know of any OC that have been HOF inductees..

unless he turns some other team into a consistent SB winner he does not have a chance..

sneakers
05-15-2009, 03:05 AM
Well color me stupid but mike did nothing without HALL OF FAME players.. Did not ever win a Lombardi without one of them..

In fact in 11 of those 13 years in IIRC won but ONE playoff game and got crushed in all the others they appeared in..

Sorry just having a winning record doth not make a HOF coach..

Without TD and John in DEN he won squat.. I do not know of any OC that have been HOF inductees..

unless he turns some other team into a consistent SB winner he does not have a chance..

How many other NFL coaches have won 200 games?

LordTrychon
05-15-2009, 03:20 AM
How many great coaches had their best years without any Hall of Fame players?

Lonestar
05-15-2009, 03:21 AM
How many other NFL coaches have won 200 games?


who cares? winning super bowls is what counts ,, winning playoff games counts..

If you can't win a playoff game winning in the regular season is worthless.

How many seasons did mikes teams start off like gang busters to fade in the stretch..

winning regular season games is not the only criteria for HOF consideration..

Plus the magic bullet on all of this is he coached 13 years in "never never land" DENVER.. where there are NO HOF voters..

this is not even academic.. not voters no HOF.. had he won 200 games in NYC or WAS OR CHI he would be a lock.. but al of his wins were either with HOF players or in DENVER..

Sorry Charlie, this is a non starter..

Dirk
05-15-2009, 04:13 AM
Shanny has one thing on his side outside of all the wins and SBs and such.

The media and others actually "like" him. He has a nickname.."Mastermind".

I know it sounds stupid but unfortunately that has a lot to do with it. Being liked by those that vote the players/coaches/etc in has a lot to do with it.

So I think he will get in.

Nomad
05-15-2009, 06:52 AM
They asked a similiar question on a program I was listening to the other day. They listed Cowher, Dungy, a few others and Shanahan....the majority of opinions (granted 4 analysts) all picked Dungy 1st and Shanahan last. It seems every voter has their own opinion and there's not a list of rules on how to be in the HOF. I believe what Shanahan has done as a HC before and after Elway hurts him as far as bringing teams to the playoffs, but will eventually get in many years later because of 97 and 98.

Do I care about the HOF, no, because it's a good ol boy club and biased!!

In-com-plete
05-15-2009, 08:02 AM
He's a Bronco. So the odds are against him.

CrazyHorse
05-15-2009, 09:32 AM
I say yes.
Unicorn marriage?

Northman
05-15-2009, 09:34 AM
Yes, he is a HOF.

broncofaninfla
05-15-2009, 09:36 AM
Without a doubt Shanahan is a HOF coach. One of the best game planners in the history of the game. I'd like to see a survey of defensive coordinators and thier opinion of the hardest coaches to game plan for. When he had the players in place he was a master of keeping offenses off balance.

Thnikkaman
05-15-2009, 09:42 AM
Unless
Nobody
Indicates
Coaching
Of
Really
Nice

Men
And
Running
Runners
I
Agree
Goofy
Eyeballs

NightTrainLayne
05-15-2009, 09:44 AM
He certainly should be in, but he'll have two things working against him.

One, he is in Denver, and he left with the perception that he couldn't get it done without Elway (ironic for Broncos fans who always heard about how Elway couldn't get it done).

Two, if he coaches again somewhere else and doesn't win another SB he will essentially be helping to reinforce point #1. And let's face it. How many coaches have won Super Bowls with two different teams? hmmmm, short list. Although if he were able to get there again, or go deep in the playoffs a couple more times he might overcome that label.

NameUsedBefore
05-15-2009, 10:12 AM
Yes.

Besides 2005, Denver hasn't been the greatest of teams post-SB but he's kept them competitive. If all the pieces are in play, a Shanahan offense simply dominates. I think a solid knock against him is that he has a fairly uncanny ability to lose to really crappy teams; there is a corollary though, that no team really seems as prepared as Denver vs. one of the league's best. I mean, he almost beat the Patriots in their prime with Danny freakin' Kanell.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 10:18 AM
Sorry.... but for those saying that Shanahan did NOTHING without HoF players... neither did Walsh. Neither did Landry, Noll, or Shula. If thats your catagory, its a failure. None of these coaches won without a HoF QB.

Also.. someone mentioned that a radio station said that DUNGY is a HoF coach. Only for ONE reason, and thats being the first black coach to win a Super Bowl. Other than that, he was a FAILURE in the playoffs, even WITH the best players and HoF QB at his fingertips. He never coached a season in Indy without Manning, Harrison, and Wayne...and coached most his years with Edgerin James (Tony didn't draft him). Dungy was 2-4 in playoffs in TB... and 7-6 playoffs with the best team in football at his disposal.

If you don't think Shanahan is a HoF coach, thats fine. But I would guess that you could say the same thing about Parcells then.

Bill Parcells:
Career record 172-130-1 (Regular Season) 56.76%
11-8 (Postseason),---------------------------------57.89%
183-138-1 (Overall) 56.83%

Mike Shanahan:
Career record 138-90-0 (Regular Season) 60.52%
8-5 (Postseason) <-----------------------------61.53%
146-95-0 (Overall) 60.58%

Tony Dungy:
Career record 133-59 69.2%
9-10 (Postseason) <----------------------47.36%
142-69 (overall) 67.29%

NameUsedBefore
05-15-2009, 10:20 AM
I'm not sure if I'm recalling right, but was Dungy a part of the years when Manning was simply crap in the playoffs?

Dungy did have issues with the Bucs though.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 10:24 AM
He certainly should be in, but he'll have two things working against him.

One, he is in Denver, and he left with the perception that he couldn't get it done without Elway (ironic for Broncos fans who always heard about how Elway couldn't get it done).

Two, if he coaches again somewhere else and doesn't win another SB he will essentially be helping to reinforce point #1. And let's face it. How many coaches have won Super Bowls with two different teams? hmmmm, short list. Although if he were able to get there again, or go deep in the playoffs a couple more times he might overcome that label.

I've always wondered why Shanahan was held to such different standards than the other coaches. Noll NEVER won a Super Bowl without Bradshaw. Walsh never won one without Montana. Shula never won a Super Bowl without a HoF QB at the helm and Landry never won one without Staubach.

Noll coached Bradshaw for 13 years.. got 4 Super bowls. Walsh coached Montana for 8 years. Landry had Staubach for 7 years. Shanahan had Elway as his QB for a measly four seasons, and won 2 Super Bowls when no other coach could.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 10:25 AM
I'm not sure if I'm recalling right, but was Dungy a part of the years when Manning was simply crap in the playoffs?

Dungy did have issues with the Bucs though.

Well.. of the 7 years straight they went to the playoffs when Dungy was the HC... 4 of those were one-n-done in the playoffs. Of the 7 playoff playoff wins, four of those came in the one Super Bowl season.

Nomad
05-15-2009, 10:28 AM
I'm not sure if I'm recalling right, but was Dungy a part of the years when Manning was simply crap in the playoffs?

Dungy did have issues with the Bucs though.


True! But the analysts view was, Dungy took crappy, bottom feeding franchises and turned them into elites and the same was said about a few other coaches they were comparing. Now what they said about Shanny was basically he couldn't turn Oakland around, inherited John Elway plugged a few pieces in and got lucky with TD, and he couldn't turn the BRONCOS around after Elway left except for one season....don't shoot the messenger (I was listening to FSR a couple weeks ago)!:fear:

silkamilkamonico
05-15-2009, 10:57 AM
Possibly.

Excellent coaching career at the start with Denver in his first 4 seasons. Average to above average at best his final 10 seasons in Denver.

WARHORSE
05-15-2009, 11:24 AM
Shanahan will be in the HOF one day.

Easily.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 11:28 AM
I'm going to have to break out my shanahan stats that compare his 'Post Elway' career to other greats that went "post" without a HoF QB and /or franchise pre-hof QB.

Also, Shanahan didn't just bring in a 'few' pieces.

Dungy inherited Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Edge... just to name the top few on offense. Not to mention a great OL along with it. Yet still managed to be one-n-done in 4 of seven seasons despite having the best team in the NFL. Sorry. I think Dungy is Wayyyyy over-rated.

Requiem / The Dagda
05-15-2009, 12:09 PM
Ravage served JR. WOOT!

Poet
05-15-2009, 12:19 PM
He won two superbowls, so yes. But honestly, I don't think he is a great coach.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 12:20 PM
He won two superbowls, so yes. But honestly, I don't think he is a great coach.

Jimmy Johnson won two super bowls, and won't be going to the HoF.

In-com-plete
05-15-2009, 12:27 PM
Jimmy Johnson won two super bowls, and won't be going to the HoF.

His coaching record is 89-68. And that's including playoffs.

Poet
05-15-2009, 12:38 PM
Jimmy Johnson won two super bowls, and won't be going to the HoF.

True. Very, very true. I suppose the fact that Johnson was so easily replaced hurts him. That being said, he did orchestrate the Hershel Walker trade.

To be honest coaches can really only be judged by winning. In today's age, if you win multiple superbowls as a coach, it would be hard to keep you out. That being said, when I think of great coaching, Johnson and Shanahan just do not come to mind.

Shanahan was credited as being an offensive genius, but that offensive genius did jack shit after Elway left. Jimmy Johnson did jack shit after Dallas. To me I want to see a great career of coaching.

I think Shanahan is a HOFer because of his two rings, but when I look at what he did after Elway, it is far from impressive, or even good.

Nomad
05-15-2009, 12:38 PM
His coaching record is 89-68. And that's including playoffs.


And it wouldn't surprise me if Johnson gets into the HOF because he was a Cowboys HC....hell it wouldn't surprise me if he gets there before Shanahan unless Shanahan becomes a Cowboys HC. Remember last time he relieved Wade Phillips;)!!


I don't understand why people are getting bent here because most BRONCO fans know he'll eventually get into the HOF. It's the pundits on radio and tv you need to be debating with who say slim to no chance. I believe he'll make it after about 10 attempts because of the HOF bias unless he becomes a coach of a big market team and wins.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 12:44 PM
His coaching record is 89-68. And that's including playoffs.

56.68.... right below Parcells.

The problem is Jimmy didn't coach very long. He coached a great team in Dallas after getting the greatest trade in NFL history, then failed when moving on to Miami.

RunYouOver
05-15-2009, 12:51 PM
Absolutely...he was one of the best coaches this game has seen, very high up on games won and winning %.

Any time a team wins back to back superbowls, their coach has to be considered...and Shanny's a very accomplished coach aside from that, so in my opinion it goes without question.

But...we'll see.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 01:06 PM
True. Very, very true. I suppose the fact that Johnson was so easily replaced hurts him. That being said, he did orchestrate the Hershel Walker trade.

To be honest coaches can really only be judged by winning. In today's age, if you win multiple superbowls as a coach, it would be hard to keep you out. That being said, when I think of great coaching, Johnson and Shanahan just do not come to mind.

Shanahan was credited as being an offensive genius, but that offensive genius did jack shit after Elway left. Jimmy Johnson did jack shit after Dallas. To me I want to see a great career of coaching.

I think Shanahan is a HOFer because of his two rings, but when I look at what he did after Elway, it is far from impressive, or even good.

Actually.. Shanahan had more wins AFTER Elway than Nolls had after Bradshaw and Landry had after Staubach. Shanahan had a bigger winning percentage than the Colts did BEFORE Manning, the Patriots BEFORE Brady (meaning the period before they had THEIR HoF QBs).

Shanahan's record AFTER Elway, is BY FAR greater than the Cowboys post Aikman, the 49ers post Young, and the Bills post Kelly. Not ONLY did SHanahan post better regular season records, but took us BACK to the Conference championship post HoF QB.

So Shanahan didn't do "jack shit" post ELway. He helped Denver accomplish MORE post-HoF QB than any other Coach/franchise has. That says a LOT.

Its not easy to replace a STUD QB..especially a HoF great. Thats why teams like the Cowboys haven't won a playoff game in 13 years (even though Aikman was on the team 13 yrs ago).. why the Bills, 49ers, and Dolphins have all struggled POST their HOF QB. People/fans want to complain about the results over our last 10 years, but the reality is....its BETTER than any OTHER Team has EVER done after losing THAT kind of team presence.

Not only did Shanahan lose Elway...which is enough. He lost Sharpe, Davis, McCaffrey, Atwater, Romo, Zimmerman, Stink, and Griffin. These are all GREAT players. Some were taken unexpectly before their time by injury. ITs not like you can replace all these players so quickly. But SHanahan kept us winning despite these losses and were NEVER considered to be as bad as the Dolphins were, the 49ers have been, or the Bills.

Great CAREERS in coaching.. are made by great players. Other than Joe Gibbs, you will not have a coach with a 'great career' that didn't have a great QB. Belicheck certainly did NOT have a great HC career going when coaching with the Browns. Nor did he have one before luckily finding Brady. Thats part of it.

Lonestar
05-15-2009, 01:19 PM
Sorry.... but for those saying that Shanahan did NOTHING without HoF players... neither did Walsh. Neither did Landry, Noll, or Shula. If thats your catagory, its a failure. None of these coaches won without a HoF QB.

Also.. someone mentioned that a radio station said that DUNGY is a HoF coach. Only for ONE reason, and thats being the first black coach to win a Super Bowl. Other than that, he was a FAILURE in the playoffs, even WITH the best players and HoF QB at his fingertips. He never coached a season in Indy without Manning, Harrison, and Wayne...and coached most his years with Edgerin James (Tony didn't draft him). Dungy was 2-4 in playoffs in TB... and 7-6 playoffs with the best team in football at his disposal.

If you don't think Shanahan is a HoF coach, thats fine. But I would guess that you could say the same thing about Parcells then.

Bill Parcells:
Career record 172-130-1 (Regular Season) 56.76%
11-8 (Postseason),---------------------------------57.89%
183-138-1 (Overall) 56.83%

Mike Shanahan:
Career record 138-90-0 (Regular Season) 60.52%
8-5 (Postseason) <-----------------------------61.53%
146-95-0 (Overall) 60.58%

Tony Dungy:
Career record 133-59 69.2%
9-10 (Postseason) <----------------------47.36%
142-69 (overall) 67.29%


Nice stats and they are hard to argue against..

BUT all of these folks also played east to the Mississippi where the most voters are..

mike was not all that respected by those players that went else where, after being in DEN to those he kept in DEN he was at least admired..

Unless he wins another super bowl some where else I doubt he will be elected to the HOF..

Right now I'm not all that sure he will get another chance to be a HEAD coach..

I seem to remember alot of folks saying he would have another job 15 minutes after leaving DEN.. Unless there area lot of rookie coach failures in the next couple of year I suspect he will not get another chance as HC.. Might catch on as someones OC, but I can't think of any owner that is not totally nuts that will give him total control like he had in DEN..

Everyone saw what he did to the broncos over the past 10 years.. and while they won some games they really never sniffed at the SB.. He ran this team into the ground player talent wise.. outside of 5 OLINE men, an imported TE, CB, and a couple WR's there, there is not much else there and absolutely no depth should someone go down.. NO ONE with playing experience..

Sorry but it has been a shell game for the past 10 years and he finally got exposed..

Very few HC that got fired TWICE, IIRC have been HOF inductees..
But I'll leave that up to Y'all to disprove..

Poet
05-15-2009, 01:24 PM
Actually.. Shanahan had more wins AFTER Elway than Nolls had after Bradshaw and Landry had after Staubach. Shanahan had a bigger winning percentage than the Colts did BEFORE Manning, the Patriots BEFORE Brady (meaning the period before they had THEIR HoF QBs).

Didn't Shanahan coach longer though? Noll also won two more superbowls than Shanahan.


Shanahan's record AFTER Elway, is BY FAR greater than the Cowboys post Aikman, the 49ers post Young, and the Bills post Kelly. Not ONLY did SHanahan post better regular season records, but took us BACK to the Conference championship post HoF QB.
The Cowboys were old and spent after Aikman, after Young the the 9ers were still pretty good. My point is simple; I think Shanahan is a HOF coach because of his two rings. He was a great coach, but his time in Denver after 2005 was so damn awful that it really does tarnish him. A lot of that has to do with him (like most other coaches) being awful at being a GM, but the end result is the same. Put him in the HOF, he has two rings. I think Cowher is probably a HOF coach, I think Dungy is a HOF coach, and Shanahan has twice as many rings as those guys do. That being said, Shanahan's recent coaching has been so crappy that it does bring down his legacy.



So Shanahan didn't do "jack shit" post ELway. He helped Denver accomplish MORE post-HoF QB than any other Coach/franchise has. That says a LOT.

How many Superbowls did you win after Elway? In the end that's all I care about when it comes to coaching. Unlike players, the only thing you can judge them on is winning.


Its not easy to replace a STUD QB..especially a HoF great. Thats why teams like the Cowboys haven't won a playoff game in 13 years (even though Aikman was on the team 13 yrs ago).. why the Bills, 49ers, and Dolphins have all struggled POST their HOF QB. People/fans want to complain about the results over our last 10 years, but the reality is....its BETTER than any OTHER Team has EVER done after losing THAT kind of team presence.

Not only did Shanahan lose Elway...which is enough. He lost Sharpe, Davis, McCaffrey, Atwater, Romo, Zimmerman, Stink, and Griffin. These are all GREAT players. Some were taken unexpectly before their time by injury. ITs not like you can replace all these players so quickly. But SHanahan kept us winning despite these losses and were NEVER considered to be as bad as the Dolphins were, the 49ers have been, or the Bills.

Great CAREERS in coaching.. are made by great players. Other than Joe Gibbs, you will not have a coach with a 'great career' that didn't have a great QB. Belicheck certainly did NOT have a great HC career going when coaching with the Browns. Nor did he have one before luckily finding Brady. Thats part of it.


The rest is fair and fine, but the Patriots were not full of great players. They were a team that won by it's scheme. They were not a team full of many future HOFers. It even took Brady time to develop into the player he is now, in fact really the only future HOFer you will find on their SB winning teams roster is probably Ty Law, and he was only on the first SB team.

Put Shanahan in the HOF. I even said that.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 01:26 PM
Being fired by Oakland, doesn't count. Especially in the terms that it happened. NO ONE is going to count that 'firing' as if it is something negative against Mike Shanahan.

As far as you saying he got 'exposed' the last ten years... I can prove that to be incorrect as well. His stats beat anyone else (coach or franchise) that has lost a HoF QB.... and it doesn't happen again and again and again and again... and call it a coincidence.

ALso... of course Shanahan could have had a job as a HC this coming year, if he wanted one. Thats been said by owners and GMs alike. But Mike doesn't have to hurry. He doesn't have to 'snag' the first offer to come to the table. He can pick and choose as he sees fit. He'll be the next Dallas coach, and the ONLY reason he wasn't this coming year, is because Jerry Jones stuck his foot in his mouth early and said that he was 100% behind Phillips, and Phillips WOULD be his coach. Jerry is too proud to then turn around and hire a coach he would rather have. Don't be shocked if there is a change mid-way through the '09 season.

Also.. going to the AFC CHampionship game... is about as close to 'sniffing' at the Super Bowl as you can get without making it.

Lonestar
05-15-2009, 01:27 PM
I've always wondered why Shanahan was held to such different standards than the other coaches. Noll NEVER won a Super Bowl without Bradshaw. Walsh never won one without Montana. Shula never won a Super Bowl without a HoF QB at the helm and Landry never won one without Staubach.

Noll coached Bradshaw for 13 years.. got 4 Super bowls. Walsh coached Montana for 8 years. Landry had Staubach for 7 years. Shanahan had Elway as his QB for a measly four seasons, and won 2 Super Bowls when no other coach could.

well Noll made Terry Bradshaw into a decent QB and built a hell of a team around him steel curtain IIRC..

Walsh was a genius and took a no body QB in Montana and created an offense for him and then IIRC was smart enough to bring in a loser in Young to take over for him.. rebuilt and perfected Paul Browns O to a new level with some great players..

Landry was the epitome of class coaches..

mike was one of those coaches that had difficulty having his teams prepared for some BIG games JAX and PIT home PLAYOFF games..and quite a few little games..to numerous to mention..

NameUsedBefore
05-15-2009, 01:33 PM
Denver has been a crappy team since mid-way through '06 when the defense imploded. He also had a fairly horrid QB scenario going on for quite a long time barring two solid years out of Griese and Plummer respectively. Nevermind manage to maintain a high-octane run game with the likes of Olandis Gary, Ruben Droughns, Mike Anderson, etc.

To me, it seemed like Shanahan was undoubtedly going to get Denver another SB within five years now that he finally had a franchise QB again. The time ran out and we'll never know now.

Did he win another SB between the '98 season to last? No. He did come close once, though, and got into the playoffs other times. But the simple fact is that Denver never had a SB-caliber team after that. What was maintained, regardless of a Griese, Danny, Burlein, Plummer et al, and the numerous running-backs, he managed to keep Denver's offense at a surprisingly high level of play which, as Rav has pointed out, is not something most HoF coaches did once their primes were over.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 02:22 PM
Didn't Shanahan coach longer though? Noll also won two more superbowls than Shanahan.

Noll won two more Super Bowls WITH Bradshaw.. and once Bradshaw left (he coached 23 years, 13 with bradshaw and 9 after)... he couldn't win squat. His record after Bradshaw left was 70-73 (48.9%) Noll had Bradshaw for 13 years, won 4 Super Bowls. Shanahan had Elway for 4 years, and won 2.



The Cowboys were old and spent after Aikman
and after losing Elway, the Broncos were young and fresh? Why do the cowboys get that "they were old" when shanahan lost not only Elway, but Sharpe, Davis, griffin, zimmerman, Schlereth, Atwater, McCaffrey, James, Neil Smith, Keith Traylor, and Mobley


after Young the the 9ers were still pretty good.

the 49ers had 2 seasons that had 10+ wins.. the 3rd & 4th season after Young. After that, NO winning seasons since, and its been ten years. Their record is 64-96 since Young.


My point is simple; I think Shanahan is a HOF coach because of his two rings. He was a great coach, but his time in Denver after 2005 was so damn awful that it really does tarnish him. A lot of that has to do with him (like most other coaches) being awful at being a GM, but the end result is the same. Put him in the HOF, he has two rings. I think Cowher is probably a HOF coach, I think Dungy is a HOF coach, and Shanahan has twice as many rings as those guys do. That being said, Shanahan's recent coaching has been so crappy that it does bring down his legacy.

But you were saying that you wanted a coach that had a great career. You can't take the last 2 seasons of a great career and say that ONLY his Super Bowl winning seasons is what puts him in. I mean, Landry had a great coaching career. Do you know what his record was his last three seasons was? 17-30. Do those last 3 bad seasons ruin/tarnish his career?

I'm simply pointing out to some, that Shanahan's record PAST Elway can NOT be the only thing considered.. and his PAST Elway record is greater than ANYONE or ANY franchise post-HoF- QB. Isn't that how we define greatness, by how they compare to others at their job?


How many Superbowls did you win after Elway? In the end that's all I care about when it comes to coaching. Unlike players, the only thing you can judge them on is winning.
Ok.. how many did Noll win after Bradshaw? How many did Landry win after Staubach? How many did Shula win after Griese? How many did Walsh win without Montana? How many did the Cowboys win post Aikman, or the 49ers win after Young? Noll shouldn't be in the Fame, nor Landry... nor Shula. After all, they couldn't win after they lost their HoF QB either.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 02:24 PM
well Noll made Terry Bradshaw into a decent QB and built a hell of a team around him steel curtain IIRC..

Walsh was a genius and took a no body QB in Montana and created an offense for him and then IIRC was smart enough to bring in a loser in Young to take over for him.. rebuilt and perfected Paul Browns O to a new level with some great players..

Landry was the epitome of class coaches..

mike was one of those coaches that had difficulty having his teams prepared for some BIG games JAX and PIT home PLAYOFF games..and quite a few little games..to numerous to mention..

This is nothing but opinion and bias. Despite all the fact that have been shown as far as coaches and their success because of their QBs, you want to make the determining factor the coach. How come Noll couldn't win after Bradshaw? Walsh looked like a genius BECAUSE of Montana and Rice. Landry didn't get in the the HoF because of his "class" (Sam Wyche was pure class). Besides, Mike Shanahan has been just as classy as any of them.

These coaches ALL won because of the players on their team, MAINLY the QB. Thats a fact. Great players MAKE great coaches. How many coaches have won multible Super Bowls without having a great QB? I can name one, Joe Gibbs.

jr... its hard to take your criticisms of our recently traded QBs when in this ONE post you called Bradshaw 'decent'.. Montana a 'nobody'.. and Steve Young a 'loser'.... I would think that Cutler would WELCOME any kind of criticisms that you may toss his direction if this is a set pattern :D

Superchop 7
05-15-2009, 03:02 PM
Hall of Fame

I don't trust those nutjobs as far as I can throw them.

Sharpe....should have been first ballot.

If they aren't smart enough to put in Gradishar.....

Come on......

Shanny could have won 10 superbowls and it still won't matter.

It's media bias.

Always has been.

Always will be.

Slick
05-15-2009, 03:31 PM
You can't discredit a coach for winning with great players IMO. He might not get in because of where he won, like many of you have already stated, but you can't punish him for winning with Elway and TD.

The thing i liked most about Shanahan was his successful running game. Watching a coach as dedicated to a running game as Reeves was, was painful. He never put together a line, devised a scheme, or got a talented enough back to do the job correctly. I'll always be grateful to Shanahan for that.

I think he gets in eventually.

silkamilkamonico
05-15-2009, 03:50 PM
LMAO at trying to somehow justify Mike Shanahan with a loss of a HoF QB.

Keep it simple, and throw him into the same argument along with the other "excellent" head coaches that couldn't win jack chit without a HoF QB, and then give him a cookie for doing "a little better".

silkamilkamonico
05-15-2009, 03:53 PM
To me, it seemed like Shanahan was undoubtedly going to get Denver another SB within five years now that he finally had a franchise QB again. The time ran out and we'll never know now.

Shanahan would have easily won a number of more SuperBowls with Cutler IMHO if he could ever figure out exactly what it was he was trying to do on defense. Considering he did such a poor job with that, tells me he had his window. How many chances did the guy want?

Shanahan couldn't even make the playoffs with a franchise QB, and he had 2+ years to do it.

OrangeHoof
05-15-2009, 03:59 PM
If Marv Levy is a Hall-of-Famer, then so is Mike Shanahan.

Lonestar
05-15-2009, 05:22 PM
If Marv Levy is a Hall-of-Famer, then so is Mike Shanahan.


Marv at least built a team to win with.. had an offense and a defense.. Plus, IIRC no one has went to 4 consecutive Super Bowls before or after..


where as mike thought in the later years he was immune from anything but Offense..

LoyalSoldier
05-15-2009, 05:36 PM
Well color me stupid but mike did nothing without HALL OF FAME players.. Did not ever win a Lombardi without one of them..

So how many Superbowls did Walsh win without Montana or Chuck Noll without his steel Curtain? Hell there aren't many coaches who won superbowls without HOF players. I think only Gibbs could claim something like that and yet when he came back to coach again he didn't do much in the modern NFL.

Lonestar
05-15-2009, 05:48 PM
So how many Superbowls did Walsh win without Montana or Chuck Noll without his steel Curtain? Hell there aren't many coaches who won superbowls without HOF players. I think only Gibbs could claim something like that and yet when he came back to coach again he didn't do much in the modern NFL.


but these coaches actually built those teams pretty much from the ground up..

Noll took them to SB with Terry Bradshaw for Gods sake.. and won it 3-4 times.. that in itself is scary..

lots of players Because HOFer because of there coaches not necessarily the other way around..

Who did mike develop into a HOF player that he did not inherit.. maybe TD?

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 05:52 PM
LMAO at trying to somehow justify Mike Shanahan with a loss of a HoF QB.

Keep it simple, and throw him into the same argument along with the other "excellent" head coaches that couldn't win jack chit without a HoF QB, and then give him a cookie for doing "a little better".

This would hold water if he didn't already show that he could take Elway to 5 Super Bowls as the OC/HC and Steve Young to his only SB win. Its not like Shanahan didn't already prove to be a winner. Seifert won 100 games faster than any other coach in history, but couldn't get to or win the SUper Bowl until Shanahan was running the offense.

Dungy had the best QB in the NFL, actually the best pure passer in NFL history, for 7 straight years. Had the best record in almost every season, yet had one Super Bowl trip. People want to toss him up in the air and claim him as great.

Shanahan BUILT a great team, then had the same disadvantages that the Cowboys, 49ers, Dolphins, Bills, and Steelers had.. and did BETTER than every one of them. Yet thats just not good enough.

I find that funny. I find it interesting that greatness is defined by comparing one person to another person when doing the same thing. Shanahan surpassed EVERYONE, yet thats somehow discounted because JUST being better than EVERYONE else wasn't quite good enough.

I know he didn't win any Super Bowls after the last ten seasons, but how many did we win DURING the 15 yr career of HAVING Elway before SHanahan took over? None. Yet somehow its just expected to win when every other franchise has been failing trying to accomplish EXACTLY the same thing with the same type of loss at QB? Doesn't make sense to ignore just how GOOD Mike Shanahan is/was.

We've been spoiled for a lot of years at QB and then at coach.

Slick
05-15-2009, 05:57 PM
but these coaches actually built those teams pretty much from the ground up..

Noll took them to SB with Terry Bradshaw for Gods sake.. and won it 3-4 times.. that in itself is scary..

lots of players Because HOFer because of there coaches not necessarily the other way around..

Who did mike develop into a HOF player that he did not inherit.. maybe TD?

Who cares? He coached the games.

For ***'s sake Jr. Give the man some credit. He got OUR team two trophies.

Lonestar
05-15-2009, 05:59 PM
Who cares? He coached the games.

For ***'s sake Jr. Give the man some credit. He got OUR team two trophies.

if you say so.. I think it was more Bobby Turner, Glen Robinson and Gary K than mike..

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 06:35 PM
but these coaches actually built those teams pretty much from the ground up..

Noll took them to SB with Terry Bradshaw for Gods sake.. and won it 3-4 times.. that in itself is scary..

lots of players Because HOFer because of there coaches not necessarily the other way around..

Who did mike develop into a HOF player that he did not inherit.. maybe TD?

Look how many players Mike brought into our Super Bowl teams. He didn't inherate a great football, he built a team around a couple of great players.

Players on the 1997 SB team that were brought in by Shanahan. Tell me if any of these didn't start, or didn't make a significant contribution to those SB winning teams.

Byron Chamberlain, Glen Cadrez, Terrell Davis, Howard Griffith, Darrien Gordan, Tony Jones, Derek Loville, Ed McCaffrey, John Mobley, Trevor Pryce, Dan Neil, Micheal Dean Perry, Bill Romanowski, Mark Schlereth, Detron Smith, Neil Smith, Harry Swayne, Keith Traylor, Alfred Williams

Rod Smith was on the PRACTICE Squad when Shanahan came on board. Tell me we should thank Wade Phillips for his success.

If it was purely the coaching in Pitt, then how come he (Noll) couldn't do ANYTHING after Bradshaw left? WHy isn't Noll, in your assessment, held to the EXACT same standards as Shanahan?? Noll's winning percentage after Bradshaw plummeted.

Also... players in the 60's and 70s made the HoF easier than they do today. Look how many friggin Chiefs are in the HoF simply because they won that ONE Super Bowl back in '69. They didn't even go back to the playoffs after that until the late 80's.

You make it sound like Noll was GREAT for taking "Terry Bradshaw" to 4 Super Bowls.... yet for some reason he just couldn't do ANYTHING after Bradshaw left. Perhaps Bradshaw was better than you give credit?? I mean, you DID say Montana was a nobody, and Young was a loser.

Shanahan did build those Super Bowl teams. Seems that the other coaches sure as hell couldn't win despite having Elway.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 06:36 PM
if you say so.. I think it was more Bobby Turner, Glen Robinson and Gary K than mike..

YEah.. it was PURELY a coincidence that the Broncos NEVER went to a Super Bowl (post aquiring Elway) without Shanahan as either the OC or the HC. Had NOTHING to do with him. I'm sure it was a coincidence that the 49ers couldn't win a SB with that "loser" Steve Young (despite never losing more than 6 games a year in his entire career) before Shanahan took over the offense. I"m sure Shanahan had nothing to do with that either. :coffee:

silkamilkamonico
05-15-2009, 06:47 PM
1)This would hold water if he didn't already show that he could take Elway to 5 Super Bowls as the OC/HC and Steve Young to his only SB win. Its not like Shanahan didn't already prove to be a winner. Seifert won 100 games faster than any other coach in history, but couldn't get to or win the SUper Bowl until Shanahan was running the offense.

2)Dungy had the best QB in the NFL, actually the best pure passer in NFL history, for 7 straight years. Had the best record in almost every season, yet had one Super Bowl trip. People want to toss him up in the air and claim him as great.

3)Shanahan BUILT a great team, then had the same disadvantages that the Cowboys, 49ers, Dolphins, Bills, and Steelers had.. and did BETTER than every one of them. Yet thats just not good enough.

4)I find that funny. I find it interesting that greatness is defined by comparing one person to another person when doing the same thing. Shanahan surpassed EVERYONE, yet thats somehow discounted because JUST being better than EVERYONE else wasn't quite good enough.

5)I know he didn't win any Super Bowls after the last ten seasons, but how many did we win DURING the 15 yr career of HAVING Elway before SHanahan took over? None. Yet somehow its just expected to win when every other franchise has been failing trying to accomplish EXACTLY the same thing with the same type of loss at QB? Doesn't make sense to ignore just how GOOD Mike Shanahan is/was.

We've been spoiled for a lot of years at QB and then at coach.

1)It already does hold water. He won 2 SuperBowls with arguably the greatest QB of all time. He won more SuperBowls with John Elway than he did won playoff games without him, and he had twice as long without Elway. Nobody's saying he isn't a bad coach. And I'm stating the obvious. He goes in a list of other good coaches that couldn't win without a HoF QB.

SuperBowls? Chit, Shanahan couldn't even win playoff games without a HoF QB.

2)How many division championships, and playoff games did Dungy win without a HoF QB in TB? More than SHanahan.

3)Good enough for what? I'm concerned with what's happening in Denver. Who gives a --- about Miami. Shanahan couldn't win anything of importance without a HoF QB. Maybe Bowlen should have taken your stats of coaches failing after a HoF QB leaves into consideration, and just fire Shanahan when Elway retired.

Maybe it would have saved us 10 years.

4)Yet all you do is compare Shanahan to other coaches who have had a HoF QB. Ironic. I just look at the logical facts.

Shanahan won 1 playoff game in 10 years. 10 years ago, Nebraska was still a college football powerhouse throughout the length of their entirety. Now they're a laughing stock. Shanahan isn't a laughing stock. He's just another coach that couldn't win without arguably the greatest QB of all time.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 06:56 PM
1)It already does hold water. He won 2 SuperBowls with arguably the greatest QB of all time. He won more SuperBowls with John Elway than he did won playoff games without him, and he had twice as long without Elway. Nobody's saying he isn't a bad coach. And I'm stating the obvious. He goes in a list of other good coaches that couldn't win without a HoF QB.

SuperBowls? Chit, Shanahan couldn't even win playoff games without a HoF QB.

2)How many division championships, and playoff games did Dungy win without a HoF QB in TB? More than SHanahan.

3)Good enough for what? I'm concerned with what's happening in Denver. Who gives a --- about Miami. Shanahan couldn't win anything of importance without a HoF QB. Maybe Bowlen should have taken your stats of coaches failing after a HoF QB leaves into consideration, and just fire Shanahan when Elway retired.

Maybe it would have saved us 10 years.

4)Yet all you do is compare Shanahan to other coaches who have had a HoF QB. Ironic. I just look at the logical facts.

Shanahan won 1 playoff game in 10 years. 10 years ago, Nebraska was still a college football powerhouse throughout the length of their entirety. Now they're a laughing stock. Shanahan isn't a laughing stock. He's just another coach that couldn't win without arguably the greatest QB of all time.

But you don't want to compare him to the OTHER HoF coaches that couldn't/didnt win with THEIR loss of a HoF QB either. Its simple.. compare apples to apples. Landry and Noll both stayed around as long as Shanahan did after losing their QB, who has the most wins and playoff appearances? If you want to compare, make the CORRECT comparison. Don't just randomly choose who to compare to.

You can't look at teams that have HoF QBs NOW, and compare them to teams that have lost theirs. When those teams were great, the teams that are great now were losers. Simple. All I do is compare SHanahan to coaches/franchises that have had the SAME loss and disadvantages, and showed that he SURPASSED all of them, but you don't want to see that. You want to say "but we aren't INdy/NE".... you are right. When we were great, they were at the bottom of the league.

Dungy was 2-4 in the playoffs in TB, and was only 9-10 after having one of the greatest offensive teams assembled (and Dungy didn't assemble it).

Chit...Shanahan took us to the AFC CHampionship with Plummer. That says it all right there.

Its not a coincidence if it keeps happening over and over and over again throughout the NFL. A LOT of great football minds have failed to win, yet Mike Shanahan OUT DID them all... period. Yet you say "I don't care about miami"... that just doesn't make sense. WHen you are comparing how a person, a player or coach, DOES.. you COMPARE Them to the competition.

silkamilkamonico
05-15-2009, 06:57 PM
But you don't want to compare him to the OTHER HoF coaches that couldn't/didnt win with THEIR loss of a HoF QB either. It's simple.

No. This is simple. 1 playoff win in 10 years. Simple.

And you can quit bringing up Dungy already, since you find it funny that people compare him to other coaches.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 07:00 PM
No. This is simple. 1 playoff win in 10 years. Simple.

And you can quit bringing up Dungy already, since you find it funny that people compare him to other coaches.

you are the one that keeps bringing hm up. I just respond. I'm just responding to the comments.

Also.. I don't find it funny that we are comparing him to other coaches.. I'm the one COMPARING Him to other coaches!!

Lonestar
05-15-2009, 07:01 PM
Look how many players Mike brought into our Super Bowl teams. He didn't inherate a great football, he built a team around a couple of great players.

Players on the 1997 SB team that were brought in by Shanahan. Tell me if any of these didn't start, or didn't make a significant contribution to those SB winning teams.

Byron Chamberlain, Glen Cadrez, Terrell Davis, Howard Griffith, Darrien Gordan, Tony Jones, Derek Loville, Ed McCaffrey, John Mobley, Trevor Pryce, Dan Neil, Micheal Dean Perry, Bill Romanowski, Mark Schlereth, Detron Smith, Neil Smith, Harry Swayne, Keith Traylor, Alfred Williams

Rod Smith was on the PRACTICE Squad when Shanahan came on board. Tell me we should thank Wade Phillips for his success.

If it was purely the coaching in Pitt, then how come he (Noll) couldn't do ANYTHING after Bradshaw left? WHy isn't Noll, in your assessment, held to the EXACT same standards as Shanahan?? Noll's winning percentage after Bradshaw plummeted.

Also... players in the 60's and 70s made the HoF easier than they do today. Look how many friggin Chiefs are in the HoF simply because they won that ONE Super Bowl back in '69. They didn't even go back to the playoffs after that until the late 80's.

You make it sound like Noll was GREAT for taking "Terry Bradshaw" to 4 Super Bowls.... yet for some reason he just couldn't do ANYTHING after Bradshaw left. Perhaps Bradshaw was better than you give credit?? I mean, you DID say Montana was a nobody, and Young was a loser.

Shanahan did build those Super Bowl teams. Seems that the other coaches sure as hell couldn't win despite having Elway.


ravage or rabid not sure which? wow you need to cut down on the caffeine :D

I know you think that mike walked on water, but Sharpe, ZIM and John were already here when mike came back to town.. as for the other players listed sure most of them played those years.. but about the only #1 draft choice that was worth a crap price was drafted in 97 and played in 8 games that year.. with 2 sacks no tackles.. the following year he came on pretty strong.. Sharpe another HOF player already had a couple 1000 yard season by the time mike got to town..

Yep he brought in TD that completed the offense but please do not tell me that was not just flat dumb luck.. and some great coaching by Bobby Turner..

About the other Coaches you revered so much.. Noll was a great coach and built some fine teams from the ground up. Why he did not take more teams Off the top of my head with out wasting a lot of research time his teams got old and hurt..

As for Montana are you really trying telling me he would have been HOF QB had he been in SEA or San .. as for his replacement in Young, Walsh was a genius getting failed QB from TPA to understudy for Joe..

I could care less about the other HC and what they did.. I just know that mike has not won a thing with out John and LOTS of writers have been saying that for almost a decade now.. those things will stick in their craniums for alot longer that the two SB parties we had with him..

On top of that there are FEW HOF voters that like mike they all have their own agendas when mikes name comes up in 4 more years.. he went out as a loser.. and right now in my Crystal Ball he has little chance at seeing the sidelines in the same capacity he had in DEN..

OrangeHoof
05-15-2009, 07:10 PM
Marv at least built a team to win with.. had an offense and a defense.. Plus, IIRC no one has went to 4 consecutive Super Bowls before or after..

Scoreboard: Shanahan had two Lombardi trophies. Levy, zero. Lost all four by a combined score of 139-73.

And Levy couldn't reach the Super Bowl without a Hall-of-Fame QB either.

silkamilkamonico
05-15-2009, 07:12 PM
you are the one that keeps bringing hm up. I just respond. I'm just responding to the comments.

O'rly........?

You brought him up in posts #18, #21, #25, #50, #56. I brought him up twice, both in responses to your post.

You make great points of his record before and after Elway in responses to other coaches with HoF QB's, it's just too bad we couldn't get that information to Bowlen when Elway retired so he could have fired him and saved us a mediocre at best decade of Denver Bronco football.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 07:13 PM
ravage or rabid not sure which? wow you need to cut down on the caffeine :D

I know you think that mike walked on water, but Sharpe, ZIM and John were already here when mike came back to town.. as for the other players listed sure most of them played those years.. but about the only #1 draft choice that was worth a crap price was drafted in 97 and played in 8 games that year.. with 2 sacks no tackles.. the following year he came on pretty strong.. Sharpe another HOF player already had a couple 1000 yard season by the time mike got to town..

Yep he brought in TD that completed the offense but please do not tell me that was not just flat dumb luck.. and some great coaching by Bobby Turner..

About the other Coaches you revered so much.. Noll was a great coach and built some fine teams from the ground up. Why he did not take more teams Off the top of my head with out wasting a lot of research time his teams got old and hurt..

As for Montana are you really trying telling me he would have been HOF QB had he been in SEA or San .. as for his replacement in Young, Walsh was a genius getting failed QB from TPA to understudy for Joe..

I could care less about the other HC and what they did.. I just know that mike has not won a thing with out John and LOTS of writers have been saying that for almost a decade now.. those things will stick in their craniums for alot longer that the two SB parties we had with him..

On top of that there are FEW HOF voters that like mike they all have their own agendas when mikes name comes up in 4 more years.. he went out as a loser.. and right now in my Crystal Ball he has little chance at seeing the sidelines in the same capacity he had in DEN..

Its not thinking Shanahan walked on water...its actually not taking the negative crappy biased that you and some other have. I can see that despite us not getting to the Super Bowl, Shanahan was a GREAT coach.

As far as the writers... I'll be glad to point out EVERY hypocrisy they write with the SAME facts. Their points are no different than yours, and I can show where they are wrong as well.

yes... Elway, Sharpe, and ZIm. As far as the draft choices, I never argued that. But you wanted to say that Noll "built" his SB teams when I showed that SHanahan 'built' our teams just as much. No one else could win with Elway.

TD may have been Dumb luck, but so was Brady. Belicheck sure as hell gets a lot of love for THAT one. So was Montana. So was Sharpe, Mechlenburgh and a thousand other players. That doesn't mean that Noll didn't get lucky with MANY of his players. NOLL did not do ANYTHING that SHanahan didn't do, other than have MANY more years with his HoF QB than Mike Shanahan did.

The question was if Mike Shanahan was a HoF coach. Many believe that Parcells is for sure.... yet Mike Shanahan has as many SB rings, bigger reg season %, better playoff winning %, and better combined winning %.

I then can show that Mike has a better win percentage than both Noll and Landry, who stayed 9 years after the loss of their HoF QBs.. and Mike has more wins than both. I can show where Mike has more wins than ANY other franchise that has lost a HoF QB, yet you don't want to give him credit for that. You intentionally wish to ignore the facts.

I don't know if Montana would have been a HoF QB elsewhere. We can make that same argument for EVERY QB that played the game. Its always a combination of players, coaches, teammates, city, and alignment of the stars.

Also... PLEASE don't tell me the success of Terrell Davis was on the back of Bobby Turner. Thats an insult to Davis and an insult to the entire Bronco team. Terrell Davis was not some 'systems back' that only succeeded due to some blocking scheme.

I bet he nearly gets the same capacity as the coach in Dallas.... count on it.

Ravage!!!
05-15-2009, 07:14 PM
O'rly........?

You brought him up in posts #18, #21, #25, #50, #56. I brought him up twice, both in responses to your post.

You make great points of his record before and after Elway in responses to other coaches with HoF QB's, it's just too bad we couldn't get that information to Bowlen when Elway retired so he could have fired him and saved us a mediocre at best decade of Denver Bronco football.

yeah.. read that the first time you said it.... was silly then and just as silly this time, so I didn't respond.

silkamilkamonico
05-15-2009, 07:16 PM
yeah.. read that the first time you said it.... was silly then and just as silly this time, so I didn't respond.


I agree. I mean, you've been talking about him this entire thread obvisouly, and then you try and say "I was the one bringing him up and you were just responding to comments". Just silliness.

Lonestar
05-15-2009, 07:22 PM
Its not thinking Shanahan walked on water...its actually not taking the negative crappy biased that you and some other have. I can see that despite us not getting to the Super Bowl, Shanahan was a GREAT coach.

As far as the writers... I'll be glad to point out EVERY hypocrisy they write with the SAME facts. Their points are no different than yours, and I can show where they are wrong as well.

yes... Elway, Sharpe, and ZIm. As far as the draft choices, I never argued that. But you wanted to say that Noll "built" his SB teams when I showed that SHanahan 'built' our teams just as much. No one else could win with Elway.

TD may have been Dumb luck, but so was Brady. Belicheck sure as hell gets a lot of love for THAT one. So was Montana. So was Sharpe, Mechlenburgh and a thousand other players. That doesn't mean that Noll didn't get lucky with MANY of his players. NOLL did not do ANYTHING that SHanahan didn't do, other than have MANY more years with his HoF QB than Mike Shanahan did.

The question was if Mike Shanahan was a HoF coach. Many believe that Parcells is for sure.... yet Mike Shanahan has as many SB rings, bigger reg season %, better playoff winning %, and better combined winning %.

I then can show that Mike has a better win percentage than both Noll and Landry, who stayed 9 years after the loss of their HoF QBs.. and Mike has more wins than both. I can show where Mike has more wins than ANY other franchise that has lost a HoF QB, yet you don't want to give him credit for that. You intentionally wish to ignore the facts.

I don't know if Montana would have been a HoF QB elsewhere. We can make that same argument for EVERY QB that played the game. Its always a combination of players, coaches, teammates, city, and alignment of the stars.

Also... PLEASE don't tell me the success of Terrell Davis was on the back of Bobby Turner. Thats an insult to Davis and an insult to the entire Bronco team. Terrell Davis was not some 'systems back' that only succeeded due to some blocking scheme.

I bet he nearly gets the same capacity as the coach in Dallas.... count on it.


Jerry Jones will not give up the GM portion of his job not gonna happen..

As for TD it was a combination of John, Gary, Gibbs' ZBS and Bobby.. could he have played elsewhere? Perhaps but would he have ever got the chance unlikely.. he was to slow and injured alot..

In fact may not have even made it in DEN, had it not been for the one special teams tackle.. Until that tackle that got him noticed, he was brought in as TC fodder.. and got real lucky..

Slick
05-15-2009, 07:36 PM
Jr was sitting in the stands at Mile High while I was still a tickle in my Dad's sack, but sometimes I wonder if he even enjoys the game anymore.

*no offense meant here my friend*

LoyalSoldier
05-15-2009, 09:44 PM
but these coaches actually built those teams pretty much from the ground up..

Noll took them to SB with Terry Bradshaw for Gods sake.. and won it 3-4 times.. that in itself is scary..

Which somehow Bradshaw made it into the HOF......



lots of players Because HOFer because of there coaches not necessarily the other way around..

Who did mike develop into a HOF player that he did not inherit.. maybe TD?

So how many HOF players has Parcells made since the Giants? How many rings?

How many winning seasons did Noll have after his HOF defense started to retire? He had a record similar to Shanahan, a winning but average record.

Walsh had the benefit of retiring on top so we have no idea how he would have done without his HOF players. Though the guy he said "would be the next Joe Montana" turned out to be a great big draft bust who couldn't throw to his left. So I guess even Walsh wasn't perfect.

Honestly what you are saying applies to just about every coach to ever coach in the NFL. Name me a single one that won multilple superbowls without a single HOFer on the team? Every coach lucks out on draft picks or FA signings.

Hawgdriver
05-15-2009, 10:30 PM
So let me get this straight. If you are a great player and you win lots of games and championships you go to the HoF, and if you are a great coach and you win lots of games and championships you go to the HoF, but if you're a great coach with great players and you win a lot of games and championships you don't go to the HoF? So who goes to the HoF?

Bozo Jr.
05-16-2009, 02:47 AM
Back to Back SB wins = HOF'er no doubt about it. :salute:

Den21vsBal19
05-16-2009, 05:39 AM
6 SuperBowls as coach or head coach, 3 wins

Over 100 wins as head coach.

If Shanny had had his career anywhere else, he'd be guaranteed HOF first time..............since most of his success came in Denver :whoknows:

So what if he'd grown stale here, it happens eventually to all the great coaches, over his career he's earnt that bust in Canton.

LoyalSoldier
05-16-2009, 01:55 PM
Jerry Jones will not give up the GM portion of his job not gonna happen..

As for TD it was a combination of John, Gary, Gibbs' ZBS and Bobby.. could he have played elsewhere? Perhaps but would he have ever got the chance unlikely.. he was to slow and injured alot..

I think now you are just dragging down any player to make your point. Honestly there have been many backs in great systems, but how many got over 2000 yards? There is no way you can tell me that TD had nothing to do with it.


In fact may not have even made it in DEN, had it not been for the one special teams tackle.. Until that tackle that got him noticed, he was brought in as TC fodder.. and got real lucky..

Then the whole game of football takes no skill and is purely luck.

Lonestar
05-16-2009, 02:32 PM
I think now you are just dragging down any player to make your point. Honestly there have been many backs in great systems, but how many got over 2000 yards? There is no way you can tell me that TD had nothing to do with it.



Then the whole game of football takes no skill and is purely luck.


You miss my point TD was extraordinary as a BRONCO, what is doubtful was the odds of him making some other squad like every other 5-6 th rounder are on the moon.. Without that special teams tackle he was on the chopping block and would have not been kept by DEN..

When that tackle was made several of the vets that years were saying "who the hell made that tackle, guess he will make the team as a ST player".. because he had not made ANY impression up to that point..


The same thing would have applied to many late round draft choices like Brady would he have been kept by anyone else and had Drew not gone down for an injury would he have ever been anything other than a backup any where else..

These are things we just do not know for sure..

One tackle started TD career, without it who knows for sure..

Slick
05-16-2009, 03:00 PM
You miss my point TD was extraordinary as a BRONCO, what is doubtful was the odds of him making some other squad like every other 5-6 th rounder are on the moon.. Without that special teams tackle he was on the chopping block and would have not been kept by DEN..

When that tackle was made several of the vets that years were saying "who the hell made that tackle, guess he will make the team as a ST player".. because he had not made ANY impression up to that point..


The same thing would have applied to many late round draft choices like Brady would he have been kept by anyone else and had Drew not gone down for an injury would he have ever been anything other than a backup any where else..

These are things we just do not know for sure..

One tackle started TD career, without it who knows for sure..
I think even Shanahan said something about that in the History of the Broncos DVD...TD was on the bubble big time, and that tackle, the hustle, the spirit he showed on that one play, opened Coache's eye.

Lonestar
05-16-2009, 03:33 PM
I think even Shanahan said something about that in the History of the Broncos DVD...TD was on the bubble big time, and that tackle, the hustle, the spirit he showed on that one play, opened Coache's eye.

That was how I got it.. an oft injured RB that did not see the field much in GA, that transfered from LB state.. drafted late as TC fodder and perhaps ST that was not fast.

What are the odds of him sticking anywhere else. as it turned out he was in the right place at the right time..

Glad he was as he enabled John to get his rings.. without him who knows for sure..

Getting back to mike and the HOF, while I think many folks see he and a mastermind and his Offenses where visionary.

I think IF he does not get any chance and wins more SB he will be remembered as what he did to this franchise, how far it slid before Pat finally cut him loose.. not for the brilliant offensive mind he was at one time..

his Achilles heel was the total disarray our player procurement and lousy defense has been for almost ever..

jrelway
05-16-2009, 04:58 PM
yes. shanny is a HOF'er. no questions asked.

Northman
05-16-2009, 06:43 PM
Who cares? He coached the games.

For ***'s sake Jr. Give the man some credit. He got OUR team two trophies.

It will never happen my man. He hates the guy that much. :lol:

Lonestar
05-16-2009, 08:01 PM
It will never happen my man. He hates the guy that much. :lol:


I do not hate him just glad him and his Bovine Excrement that everyone was buying because he won a couple of Lombardi's with very solid group of HOF players but has done squat since..


I bought into that same LINE of BE as everyone else until I listened to a couple of his EOY pressers and heard the same BE for 3 consecutive years.. We are a couple of players away from the super bowl.. blah blah blah...

Then I started to look at why we were always a couple of players away..

When I saw that for 5-6 years almost none of our day one draft choices made it past their third TC. upon further study almost none of his DAFT choices ever got a second contract past their rookie one.. and the ones he did re do were stupid like MA when he left we was scheduled to make 1 cool mil and Price 6-9 MIL per year.. neither of them were worth that kinda of money.. and to have to ask your Vets to take a yearly rewrite so we could get under the salary cap.. just bad personnel decisions all over the place..

Now as a OC there are few in his league, but as a HC with total control no way..

When almost the entire defense is tossed to the curb because none of them are worth keeping should tell Y'all something..


We have almost no depth at any position outside TE.. sorry but this has been a house of straws just waiting to be blown up..

Now it has been done and we will see either the Phoenix or a scare crow arise from the ashes....

OrangeHoof
05-16-2009, 08:14 PM
When almost the entire defense is tossed to the curb because none of them are worth keeping should tell Y'all something..

Well, yeah, it tells me we are switching defensive schemes even though we had nobody on the roster with the proper skill set to excel in the new defensive scheme. Then McDiapers fills the defensive roster with stopgaps and has-beens and expects it to be vastly improved. If you ask me, Scott Pioli totally schooled McDiapers on how to build a New England roster from scratch. The Chiefs' talent acquisitions this offseason were much smarter than the Broncos - and that's not to say the Chiefs are close to being good. But you could see the Chiefs understood how to build a 3-4 defense and the Broncos don't. The main problem the Chiefs have defensively is that Hali either has to learn to play OLB or they'll need to ship him somewhere before his value plummets.

Benetto
05-16-2009, 08:21 PM
Here's the list of HC who made it so far....With back 2 back SB's recorded, One as a dark horse, who trampled the Juggernaut Packers in Favre's prime.....And one so sweet it stamped Elway as a Legend.

I believe Shanny deserves it. He put the pieces together for #7. And always fielded a competitive team.



Heres the list:
George Allen (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=14) 1966-1977
Paul Brown (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=34) 1946-1962
Guy Chamberlin (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=44) # 1922-1927
Jimmy Conzelman (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=48) # 1921-30, 1940-42, 1946-48
Weeb Ewbank (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=65) 1954-1973
Ray Flaherty (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=68) # 1936-1949
Joe Gibbs (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=74) 1981-1992
Sid Gillman (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=76) 1955-1969, 1971-1974
Bud Grant (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=79) 1967-1983, 1985
George Halas (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=85) # 1920-29, 1933-42, 1946-67
Earl (Curly) Lambeau (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=117) # 1919-1953
Tom Landry (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=119) 1960-1988
Marv Levy (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=128) 1978-1982, 1986-1997
Vince Lombardi (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=132) 1959-1967, 1969
John Madden (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=255) 1969-1978
Earle (Greasy) Neale (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=162) 1941-1950
Chuck Noll (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=166) 1969-1991
Steve Owen (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=170) # 1930-1953
Don Shula (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=194) 1963-1995
Hank Stram (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=205) 1960-1974, 1976-1977
Bill Walsh (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=224) 1979-1988

MOtorboat
05-16-2009, 08:22 PM
Well, yeah, it tells me we are switching defensive schemes even though we had nobody on the roster with the proper skill set to excel in the new defensive scheme. Then McDiapers fills the defensive roster with stopgaps and has-beens and expects it to be vastly improved. If you ask me, Scott Pioli totally schooled McDiapers on how to build a New England roster from scratch. The Chiefs' talent acquisitions this offseason were much smarter than the Broncos - and that's not to say the Chiefs are close to being good. But you could see the Chiefs understood how to build a 3-4 defense and the Broncos don't. The main problem the Chiefs have defensively is that Hali either has to learn to play OLB or they'll need to ship him somewhere before his value plummets.

Um...huh?

MOtorboat
05-16-2009, 08:23 PM
I do not hate him just glad him and his Bovine Excrement that everyone was buying because he won a couple of Lombardi's with very solid group of HOF players but has done squat since..


I bought into that same LINE of BE as everyone else until I listened to a couple of his EOY pressers and heard the same BE for 3 consecutive years.. We are a couple of players away from the super bowl.. blah blah blah...

Then I started to look at why we were always a couple of players away..

When I saw that for 5-6 years almost none of our day one draft choices made it past their third TC. upon further study almost none of his DAFT choices ever got a second contract past their rookie one.. and the ones he did re do were stupid like MA when he left we was scheduled to make 1 cool mil and Price 6-9 MIL per year.. neither of them were worth that kinda of money.. and to have to ask your Vets to take a yearly rewrite so we could get under the salary cap.. just bad personnel decisions all over the place..

Now as a OC there are few in his league, but as a HC with total control no way..

When almost the entire defense is tossed to the curb because none of them are worth keeping should tell Y'all something..


We have almost no depth at any position outside TE.. sorry but this has been a house of straws just waiting to be blown up..

Now it has been done and we will see either the Phoenix or a scare crow arise from the ashes....

This opinion has no perspective. None at all.

Lonestar
05-16-2009, 08:24 PM
Well, yeah, it tells me we are switching defensive schemes even though we had nobody on the roster with the proper skill set to excel in the new defensive scheme. Then McDiapers fills the defensive roster with stopgaps and has-beens and expects it to be vastly improved. If you ask me, Scott Pioli totally schooled McDiapers on how to build a New England roster from scratch. The Chiefs' talent acquisitions this offseason were much smarter than the Broncos - and that's not to say the Chiefs are close to being good. But you could see the Chiefs understood how to build a 3-4 defense and the Broncos don't. The main problem the Chiefs have defensively is that Hali either has to learn to play OLB or they'll need to ship him somewhere before his value plummets.


Do you not realize that none of those mope were worth keeping to start with?

Probably a huge reason for the switch not all of it but most of those clowns could not play in a 4-3 one of the major reasons most are still unemployed..

Think the only one that got picked up was niko. ahahahahahahaha

as for bringing in "stopgaps and has-beens" this team had ZERO leadership last year.. and NO identity you jsut do not get a bunch of rookies to fill the roster and expect someone to lead..

He brought in proven players and LEADERS to tutor the rookies until they are ready to step up and take their spots..

not sure what pilaoi has done in KC, but since he was a GM before I'd guess he should be better at it than a rookie HC and GM.. not sure that is a fair comparison..

It is OK to hate josh because he is not mike but if you really are a Bronco fan and not a jay or mike fan it is time to get over it.. If you can't I hear mike is opening a restaurant in DEN and jay is now in Chicago.. time to move on..

Lonestar
05-16-2009, 08:27 PM
Here's the list of HC who made it so far....With back 2 back SB's recorded, One as a dark horse, who trampled the Juggernaut Packers in Favre's prime.....And one so sweet it stamped Elway as a Legend.

I believe Shanny deserves it. He put the pieces together for #7. And always fielded a competitive team.



Heres the list:
George Allen (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=14) 1966-1977
Paul Brown (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=34) 1946-1962
Guy Chamberlin (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=44) # 1922-1927
Jimmy Conzelman (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=48) # 1921-30, 1940-42, 1946-48
Weeb Ewbank (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=65) 1954-1973
Ray Flaherty (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=68) # 1936-1949
Joe Gibbs (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=74) 1981-1992
Sid Gillman (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=76) 1955-1969, 1971-1974
Bud Grant (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=79) 1967-1983, 1985
George Halas (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=85) # 1920-29, 1933-42, 1946-67
Earl (Curly) Lambeau (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=117) # 1919-1953
Tom Landry (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=119) 1960-1988
Marv Levy (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=128) 1978-1982, 1986-1997
Vince Lombardi (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=132) 1959-1967, 1969
John Madden (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=255) 1969-1978
Earle (Greasy) Neale (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=162) 1941-1950
Chuck Noll (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=166) 1969-1991
Steve Owen (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=170) # 1930-1953
Don Shula (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=194) 1963-1995
Hank Stram (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=205) 1960-1974, 1976-1977
Bill Walsh (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=224) 1979-1988

nice list of coaches but IIRC the super bowls started in about 1965 or so..

so the ones before that were NFL champions

Lonestar
05-16-2009, 08:27 PM
This opinion has no perspective. None at all.


thanks for your thoughts..:salute:

MOtorboat
05-16-2009, 08:30 PM
thanks for your thoughts..

Compared to who? Compared to what?

This is just blind hatred, and little understanding of how good the Broncos have been under his tutelage. There is no comparison, there is no perspective, there's only "he didn't make the Super Bowl, he sucks and doesn't deserve the Hall of Fame."

Your diatribes have no perspective, and I've seen enough of them to not make the comment I made irrelevant.

So spare me the "thanks for your opinion" bullshit.

Lonestar
05-16-2009, 08:33 PM
Compared to who? Compared to what?

This is just blind hatred, and little understanding of how good the Broncos have been under his tutelage. There is no comparison, there is no perspective, there's only "he didn't make the Super Bowl, he sucks and doesn't deserve the Hall of Fame."

Your diatribes have no perspective, and I've seen enough of them to not make the comment I made irrelevant.

So spare me the "thanks for your opinion" bullshit.


I have over the years explained my thoughts on mike.. and not going to waste the time debating a goner coach now..

If you care to look them up click on search put in mikey and look them up your self..

once again thanks for your deep insight..:salute:

MOtorboat
05-16-2009, 08:37 PM
I have over the years explained my thoughts on mike.. and not going to waste the time debating a goner coach now..

If you care to look them up click on search put in mikey and look them up your self..

once again thanks for your deep insight..:salute:

And yet...I come into this thread reading lenthy diatribes of hate...

Mike Shanahan won 2 Suoer Bowls, and has had three losing seasons in 17 seasons.

How many coaches have done that Jrwiz? How many? Can you do some comparisons, because your draft research has proved that you can't.

Go look that number up, and get back to me.

My "deep insight" is asking you to do a little research to back up these irrational opinions.

Lonestar
05-16-2009, 09:03 PM
And yet...I come into this thread reading lenthy diatribes of hate...

Mike Shanahan won 2 Suoer Bowls, and has had three losing seasons in 17 seasons.

How many coaches have done that Jrwiz? How many? Can you do some comparisons, because your draft research has proved that you can't.

Go look that number up, and get back to me.

My "deep insight" is asking you to do a little research to back up these irrational opinions.


I could care less about how many coaches have done what... they do not concern me a bit nor does the drafting of other teams.. I am concered only about my Broncos.. and IF Y'all can't see just how bad we did all those years shame on you..

I have stated why he should not be a HOF coach I do not think he deserves it unless he wins one some where else..

Had he retired/moved on to a college team a couple of years ago maybe but the state of the franchise the past few years will weigh heavily on his shoulders by those voters that do not like DEN to start with..

I just do not see it..

If you do fine and should he be voted in please remind me, how I felt about it..

MOtorboat
05-16-2009, 09:20 PM
I could care less about how many coaches have done what... they do not concern me a bit nor does the drafting of other teams.. I am concered only about my Broncos..

You have no perspective, thus my comment, and I think my comment was very relevant.

If you do not concern yourself with other teams then there is no way you can understand who should and shouldn't be in the hall of fame, therefore I stopped reading after this paragraph. We are after all comparing Shanahan against others, and then making our points about whether he should be in the hall of fame or not. If you wish to join in on the conversation, do some freakin' research, or let it go.


and IF Y'all can't see just how bad we did all those years shame on you..

Again. No perspective. None at all.

Northman
05-16-2009, 09:56 PM
I do not hate him just glad him and his Bovine Excrement that everyone was buying because he won a couple of Lombardi's with very solid group of HOF players but has done squat since..


I bought into that same LINE of BE as everyone else until I listened to a couple of his EOY pressers and heard the same BE for 3 consecutive years.. We are a couple of players away from the super bowl.. blah blah blah...

Then I started to look at why we were always a couple of players away..

When I saw that for 5-6 years almost none of our day one draft choices made it past their third TC. upon further study almost none of his DAFT choices ever got a second contract past their rookie one.. and the ones he did re do were stupid like MA when he left we was scheduled to make 1 cool mil and Price 6-9 MIL per year.. neither of them were worth that kinda of money.. and to have to ask your Vets to take a yearly rewrite so we could get under the salary cap.. just bad personnel decisions all over the place..

Now as a OC there are few in his league, but as a HC with total control no way..

When almost the entire defense is tossed to the curb because none of them are worth keeping should tell Y'all something..


We have almost no depth at any position outside TE.. sorry but this has been a house of straws just waiting to be blown up..

Now it has been done and we will see either the Phoenix or a scare crow arise from the ashes....


I disagree with you on some things and agree on others. I dont think he won just because of Elway. What i do agree with is that his duties as GM were taking its toll on both his coaching and his ability to motivate players. It was quite evident to me that the fire i saw from that guy in the SB years was far different from the guy i had seen the last 5-6 years. He himself looked unmotivated and maybe everything took its toll on him. So, although i do think it was time for him to go im not going to say he doesnt deserve the HOF for winning two championships.

MOtorboat
05-16-2009, 09:58 PM
im not going to say he doesnt deserve the HOF for winning two championships.

I was under the pretense that this is what this thread was about. The other shit doesn't really matter...

His resume speaks for itself, and it screams hall of fame.

Maybe I need to remind some people that a year after Tom Landry was fired, the Cowboys were 1-15. Does that make him a horrible coach? No. Absolutely not.

Just asking for a little perspective.

BroncoAV06
05-16-2009, 10:10 PM
I could care less about how many coaches have done what... they do not concern me a bit nor does the drafting of other teams.. I am concered only about my Broncos.. and IF Y'all can't see just how bad we did all those years shame on you..

I have stated why he should not be a HOF coach I do not think he deserves it unless he wins one some where else..

Had he retired/moved on to a college team a couple of years ago maybe but the state of the franchise the past few years will weigh heavily on his shoulders by those voters that do not like DEN to start with..

I just do not see it..

If you do fine and should he be voted in please remind me, how I felt about it..

I would like your thoughts on some other coaches then, like say Phil Jackson, must be a bad coach because he had a team with Jordan on it then Kobe/Shaq in LA. Could go on and on about coaches and players like many have already in the thread.

I just don't see how you are throwing out a whole career after a few bad years at the end. I understand the defense was in shambles and the team was in need of a change. But the impression I get is that you don't think Shany was trying to fix things.

Much like you get on people for hating McD and having that blind their posts the same thing comes across in your posts about Shany, IMO of course.

You can say all you want about HOF players but a coach still has to work with an ego of a high profile player, put that player in a system to do well, and mold a team to do well.

Poet
05-16-2009, 10:21 PM
Going through the thread I have found some arguments for Shanahan that make him seem like a better coach to me.

I won't lie, when I started to get into football there was the huge debate over "Is Mike Shanahan still an offensive genius, or was he only good because of Elway"?

I always thought that if you won more than one Superbowl you should be in the HOF. So, I think he is a HOFer. My thing is that I have never heard anyone outside of Denver rave about his coaching skills as far as gameplans and actually coaching.

Cowher and Dungy will get into the HOF. They should get into the HOF. Shanahan has twice the hardware that really matters that they have. He is a HOF coach. I do think that his "production" died at the end. I think it may have had more to do with him doing more than coaching than anything else. That being said, his overall record and two Superbowl rings dictate the only real record that matters for coaching.

It would be retarded if he did not make it in.

MOtorboat
05-16-2009, 10:27 PM
Mike Shanahan has won 60 percent of his games coached and won two Super Bowls.

He is one of eight coaches to accomplish this.

For those of you who don't think he's deserving...do some ******* RESEARCH!

MOtorboat
05-16-2009, 10:32 PM
12 coaches have won multiple Super Bowls.

Sometimes...research behind an opinion is helpful.

BroncoAV06
05-16-2009, 10:55 PM
Going through the thread I have found some arguments for Shanahan that make him seem like a better coach to me.

I won't lie, when I started to get into football there was the huge debate over "Is Mike Shanahan still an offensive genius, or was he only good because of Elway"?

I always thought that if you won more than one Superbowl you should be in the HOF. So, I think he is a HOFer. My thing is that I have never heard anyone outside of Denver rave about his coaching skills as far as gameplans and actually coaching.

Cowher and Dungy will get into the HOF. They should get into the HOF. Shanahan has twice the hardware that really matters that they have. He is a HOF coach. I do think that his "production" died at the end. I think it may have had more to do with him doing more than coaching than anything else. That being said, his overall record and two Superbowl rings dictate the only real record that matters for coaching.

It would be retarded if he did not make it in.

That sir is a great point. His GM decisions seem to be clouding the views of many and taking the presidence over his actualy coaching.

Northman
05-17-2009, 12:20 AM
I was under the pretense that this is what this thread was about. The other shit doesn't really matter...

His resume speaks for itself, and it screams hall of fame.

Maybe I need to remind some people that a year after Tom Landry was fired, the Cowboys were 1-15. Does that make him a horrible coach? No. Absolutely not.

Just asking for a little perspective.

You wont get an arguement from me. I think its a no brainer that he gets in and ive never heard any talking head even debate it.

Lonestar
05-17-2009, 01:29 AM
I disagree with you on some things and agree on others. I dont think he won just because of Elway. What i do agree with is that his duties as GM were taking its toll on both his coaching and his ability to motivate players. It was quite evident to me that the fire i saw from that guy in the SB years was far different from the guy i had seen the last 5-6 years. He himself looked unmotivated and maybe everything took its toll on him. So, although i do think it was time for him to go im not going to say he doesnt deserve the HOF for winning two championships.

Nor did I say that John was the only reason he won those superbowls..

On top of John he also had the following HOF players or near HOF.


TD
Zim
Sharpe


near HOF

Rod Smith
Atwater
Neil Smith
Nalen


superb but not HOF

Eddie Mac
Griffth
stink
the other tackle Tony
Romo
.

that is a pretty impressive list of players.. and yes he brought alot of them in but as you said the toll of doing everything sapped him..


Once he lost those players the magic was gonzo..

Lonestar
05-17-2009, 01:41 AM
I would like your thoughts on some other coaches then, like say Phil Jackson, must be a bad coach because he had a team with Jordan on it then Kobe/Shaq in LA. Could go on and on about coaches and players like many have already in the thread.

I just don't see how you are throwing out a whole career after a few bad years at the end. I understand the defense was in shambles and the team was in need of a change. But the impression I get is that you don't think Shany was trying to fix things.

Much like you get on people for hating McD and having that blind their posts the same thing comes across in your posts about Shany, IMO of course.

You can say all you want about HOF players but a coach still has to work with an ego of a high profile player, put that player in a system to do well, and mold a team to do well.

Shirley you jest fixing things by jacking up the players on offense at the expense of defense?

2008 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 12 Ryan Clady T Boise State
2 42 Eddie Royal WR Virginia Tech
4 108 Kory Lichtensteiger C Bowling Green State
4 119 Jack Williams CB Kent State
5 139 Ryan Torain RB Arizona State
5 148 Carlton Powell DT Virginia Tech
6 183 Spencer Larsen FB Arizona
7 220 Josh Barrett DB Arizona State
7 227 Peyton Hillis RB Arkansas

the earliest he could DAFT a defensive player was 119 and than it was for a backup DB.. Shirley you jest..

refusing to fire slowitt come on their was no trying to fix it.. other than trying to out OFFENSE yards..

of his 19 choices on the last three drafts.. 8 were on defense

numbers:

119
148
183
220
17
56
121
126


that averages 124 which means 4th rounders folks.. even with moss and crowder.. That is not fixing things where we had issues..

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 07:29 AM
Shirley you jest fixing things by jacking up the players on offense at the expense of defense?

2008 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 12 Ryan Clady T Boise State
2 42 Eddie Royal WR Virginia Tech
4 108 Kory Lichtensteiger C Bowling Green State
4 119 Jack Williams CB Kent State
5 139 Ryan Torain RB Arizona State
5 148 Carlton Powell DT Virginia Tech
6 183 Spencer Larsen FB Arizona
7 220 Josh Barrett DB Arizona State
7 227 Peyton Hillis RB Arkansas

the earliest he could DAFT a defensive player was 119 and than it was for a backup DB.. Shirley you jest..

refusing to fire slowitt come on their was no trying to fix it.. other than trying to out OFFENSE yards..

of his 19 choices on the last three drafts.. 8 were on defense

numbers:

119
148
183
220
17
56
121
126


that averages 124 which means 4th rounders folks.. even with moss and crowder.. That is not fixing things where we had issues..

Now you're just rambling. And this has NOTHING to do with his hall of fame bid, it really doesn't. Because he had a few bad drafts? Really?

See, you're arguing about why he got fired, not why he shouldn't make the hall of fame.

DenBronx
05-17-2009, 10:53 AM
Mike Shanahan the GM is not being evaluated here.
Mike Shanahan the Head Coach is who we are talking about.

Based on his Head Coaching career without a doubt he will get in.

Lonestar
05-17-2009, 12:57 PM
Now you're just rambling. And this has NOTHING to do with his hall of fame bid, it really doesn't. Because he had a few bad drafts? Really?

See, you're arguing about why he got fired, not why he shouldn't make the hall of fame.


Unless your missed the post I was rebutting the post and mikes rebuilding the team.. but then you can turn words anyway you wish to try and make an agreement..

He will be remembered for his total screw up in personnel as he will be for his two rings..

Once again the voters do not really like DEN or are there enough not are not on the coasts to remember all that fondly..

So MO it is not just what the fans of DEN think it is what the voters think.. and frankly I do not think they like the guy enough without becoming a hellish winner somewhere else..

But then I could be wrong about this in the same manner I was right about Sharpe or TD not being voted in so far..

Lonestar
05-17-2009, 01:00 PM
Mike Shanahan the GM is not being evaluated here.
Mike Shanahan the Head Coach is who we are talking about.

Based on his Head Coaching career without a doubt he will get in.

but you do not get it mike was both and they are tied together.. the voters will not make that distinction..

If it were just about him being HC like Noll or levy were perhaps..

But he wore all the hats in DEN and will be remembered for the GM as much as his brilliant coaching side..


as I have consistently said most of the voters are not DEN friendly they have their own agendas..

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 02:10 PM
but you do not get it mike was both and they are tied together.. the voters will not make that distinction..

If it were just about him being HC like Noll or levy were perhaps..

But he wore all the hats in DEN and will be remembered for the GM as much as his brilliant coaching side..


as I have consistently said most of the voters are not DEN friendly they have their own agendas..

I'm pretty sure the voters will vote on his coaching record, and none save Woody Paige (who is a voter, or was) will dissect his vote as you do your opinion, because as you've said before, you only care about the Broncos, while these voters are looking at every team.

The voters don't dissect situations like that, and will vote on his coaching record, not his GM record.

To YOU and you're irrational posts of hate towards Shanahan it seems logical that he is not a HOF coach. For most people, who have some perspective on the situation, its quite obvious that he is a HOF coach.

Bronx is right, this is about coaching not his front office record, which, isn't as bad as you think it is, either...

Lonestar
05-17-2009, 02:12 PM
I'm pretty sure the voters will vote on his coaching record, and none save Woody Paige (who is a voter, or was) will dissect his vote as you do your opinion, because as you've said before, you only care about the Broncos, while these voters are looking at every team.

The voters don't dissect situations like that, and will vote on his coaching record, not his GM record.

To YOU and you're irrational posts of hate towards Shanahan it seems logical that he is not a HOF coach. For most people, who have some perspective on the situation, its quite obvious that he is a HOF coach.

Bronx is right, this is about coaching not his front office record, which, isn't as bad as you think it is, either...

guess we will have to wait 5 years to see who is right on this one..

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 02:13 PM
guess we will have to wait 5 years to see who is right on this one..

We might have to wait longer. He's not retired.

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 02:16 PM
If he doesn't get in, it's because of either A.) not ever coaching again, and therefore not doing it for a long period of time, hall of fame voters are notorious about making it about longevity, or B.) He goes somewhere else and flops.

It won't be because of some perceived lack of drafting ability. Voters just simply don't dissect a situation like that, especially to that detail. They also make comparisons rather than blind judgments.

Lonestar
05-17-2009, 02:17 PM
We might have to wait longer. He's not retired.

perhaps, perhaps not..

time will tell on that one also..

so far it is not looking good for future employment, unless jerry is stupid enough to give him the keys to the franchise..

And frankly I do not see that as a marriage made in heaven as jerry is way to Al Davis like for mike..

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 02:20 PM
so far it is not looking good for future employment

Where did you hear that?

Lonestar
05-17-2009, 02:24 PM
Where did you hear that?

I've made my case on mike in other threads, time for me to let this die from my end..

My comments are not going to influence any one that thinks he walks a on water anyway..


Time will tell on who is right and who is wrong on this issue..

for now I will have to disagree with those that think he will be a HOF candidate..

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 02:25 PM
I've made my case on mike in other threads, time for me to let this die from my end..

My comments are not going to influence any one that thinks he walks a on water anyway..


Time will tell on who is right and who is wrong on this issue..

for now I will have to disagree with those that think he will be a HOF candidate..

I'm just curious what you read that made you think he won't get a job again.

Ravage!!!
05-17-2009, 04:23 PM
You miss my point TD was extraordinary as a BRONCO, what is doubtful was the odds of him making some other squad like every other 5-6 th rounder are on the moon.. Without that special teams tackle he was on the chopping block and would have not been kept by DEN..

When that tackle was made several of the vets that years were saying "who the hell made that tackle, guess he will make the team as a ST player".. because he had not made ANY impression up to that point..


The same thing would have applied to many late round draft choices like Brady would he have been kept by anyone else and had Drew not gone down for an injury would he have ever been anything other than a backup any where else..

These are things we just do not know for sure..

One tackle started TD career, without it who knows for sure..


But isn't that how it is for ALL 6th round draft choices? None are drafted with expectations of being starters, not to mention HoF quality. Just look at the other players on the Broncos alone.

Rod Smith wasn't even drafted. Didn't play his first year with the team, but PROBABLY did something, along with his hard work and practice ethic, that caught the eye of the coaches.. right? I mean, isn't that what players do? Isn't that HOW they catch the eye of the coaches to begin with, because they are good enough to make those plays in either games or practices??

Shannon Sharpe was drafted in the 6th round as a WR and transferred to TE. Do you think he was expected to make the team, especially when changing positions?? No. But he DID SOMETHING to catch the coach's eye that kept him on the team, and eventually a starter.

Tom Brady was NOT drafted to be a replacement in the 6th round for Bledsoe. But he DID something in practices that caught the coaches eye, thus putting him at the back-up position.

Terrell Davis was NOT simply 'lucky' anymore than every player I just mentioned was 'lucky' for his success. Terrell Davis was DOMINATING at RB. He wasn't just considered 'good'.. he was considered to be the best RB in the entire LEAGUE. YOu don't get that simply because he was good 'in denver.'

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 04:32 PM
But isn't that how it is for ALL 6th round draft choices? None are drafted with expectations of being starters, not to mention HoF quality. Just look at the other players on the Broncos alone.

Rod Smith wasn't even drafted. Didn't play his first year with the team, but PROBABLY did something, along with his hard work and practice ethic, that caught the eye of the coaches.. right? I mean, isn't that what players do? Isn't that HOW they catch the eye of the coaches to begin with, because they are good enough to make those plays in either games or practices??

Shannon Sharpe was drafted in the 6th round as a WR and transferred to TE. Do you think he was expected to make the team, especially when changing positions?? No. But he DID SOMETHING to catch the coach's eye that kept him on the team, and eventually a starter.

Tom Brady was NOT drafted to be a replacement in the 6th round for Bledsoe. But he DID something in practices that caught the coaches eye, thus putting him at the back-up position.

Terrell Davis was NOT simply 'lucky' anymore than every player I just mentioned was 'lucky' for his success. Terrell Davis was DOMINATING at RB. He wasn't just considered 'good'.. he was considered to be the best RB in the entire LEAGUE. YOu don't get that simply because he was good 'in denver.'

On top of all that...if he gets the blame for our "bad drafts" recently, then he gets the credit for drafting Davis in the 6th.

The same goes for Belichick...if Brady doesn't become the superstar that he is, that draft was just as bad as any draft Denver has had in recent memory...in fact it was terrible. But Brady broke the bank, and Belichick is a genius and HOFer...just like Shanahan.

The irony of the original post that began this is that Shanahan gets no credit. It was Kubiak, Dennison and Gibbs, not Shanahan...

Blind hatred for blind hatred's sake is just stupid.

Ravage!!!
05-17-2009, 04:57 PM
I know this post is long, and I apologize for that. I've posted this last year, before the season because the same topics were discussed then. I haven't added the '08 records to the mix, for a couple reasons. 1) we finished 8-8, that won't change the % for the Broncos. 2) I was comparing to other coaches that have coached that long after losing a HoF quality QB, and Landry and Noll both didn't have more than Shanahan, thus those comparisons are ended. 3) The other comparisons are to franchises that NOW have HoF QBs, but used the record before they got there. Their records in '08 simply doesn't change the win/loss % enough to make much of a difference either way.

If someone REALLy thinks that the '08 season records will make a ton of difference, then I might find time to add them. As of right now I don't.

But I'm comparing Shanahan's record to other HoF coaches, and teams that have had HoF QBs in the past.. and just SHOWING just how GOOD Shanahan did AFTER that loss in comparison. I think its very telling. People want to gripe that we 'haven't won a Super Bowl since'.. but the reality is, it hasn't been that long. Playoffs... same thing. Anyway, use this purely as a point of reference


Shanahan in the 9 Seasons since winning our last SB, and losing our franchise QB is 83-61. Thats a 57.6 winning percentage. We've been to the playoffs in four different seasons '00, '03, '04, '05.. have been to the AFC Championship with a 1-4 playoff record. The Broncos have had 2 season with 7 or fewer wins in the 9 seasons post Elway.

Chuck Noll in the 9 seasons after losing Bradshaw was 70-73. Thats a 48.9 winning percentage, and they went to the playoffs in 3 different seasons.. '83, '84, '89.. and had a 2-3 playoff record, and one AFC Championship game... and only 1 coach. The Noll Steelers had 4 seasons with 7 or fewer wins in the 9 years post Bradshaw.

Tom Landry in the 9 seasons since losing Roger Staubach went 78-58. Thats a 57.3 winning percent percentage. Tom's Cowboys went to the playoffs 4 seasons after...'80, '81, '83, '85 and had a 3-4 playoff record and one NFC championship Game appearance ('80). Had just ONE coach.

**would like to note that Landry went from Staubach to Danny White and still had Tony Dorsett, but thats neither here nor there

**The Landry Cowboys had 4 seasons with 7 or fewer wins in the 9 years post Staubach.

I used Noll and Landry first, since they were the only two coaches to stay with a team for 9+ years after losing a franchise QB (they weren't franchise QBs back then, but you know what I mean).....and interestingly enough, the teams that stuck with the ONE coach, all had the biggest winning percentages and the most playoff appearances.

**Shula wasn't shown because I am comparing coaches records that have LOST a franchise/HoF QB... Shula went a whopping 3 years between Griese and Marino**

The rest here, are those franchises that have lost THEIR Franchise/HoF QB within the last 10years to show/see how they have recouped since. These are the Niners, the Dolphins, the Bills, and the Cowboys.

The Dolphins since losing Marino (9 years)... are 61-67, 46.8%, and have 2 playoff seasons.. '00, '01.. with a 1-2 playoff record. In those 8 seasons, they have had 4 different coaches (Johnson, Wannstedt, Saban, Cameron). Now they are on their FIFTH new HC. The Dolphins have had 3 seasons below 7 wins in the 8 seasons post Marino.

The Niners since losing Young (9 years).. are 57-87...39.5%.. and have 2 playoff seasons...'01, '02.. with a 1-2
playoff record. In the 8 years since Young's retirement the Niners have had 3 different coaches (Mariucci, Erickson, Nolan). The Niners have had SEVEN seasons with 7 or fewer wins in the 9 seasons post Young.

The Buffalo Bills since losing Kelly (9 years)..are 65-79...45.1%.. and have 2 playoff seasons... '98, '99.. and are 0-2 with no AFCCG. Since Kelly's retirement, the Bills have had 4 different coaches (Phillips, Williams, Mularky, Juron)...**their ninth season ('06) the were 7-9** The Bills have had 5 seasons with 7 or fewer wins in the 9 seasons post Kelly.

The Dallas Cowboys since losing Aikman (7 years)...are 57-55... 50.8%... and have had 3 playoff seasons.. '03, '06, and '07.. and are 0-3 with no NFCCG appearance. In the 7 years, they have had 3 different coaches (Campo, Parcells, Phillips). **also note, that now that the Cowboys are under their second season with their newest Franchise quality QB, the cowboys are again looking good**

The Cowboys had 3 seasons with 7 or fewer wins in the seven seasons post Aikman.

The Indy Colts BEFORE Manning (9 years)..were 58-86....40.2%...had 2 playoff seasons...'95, '96... were 2-2 and had one AFCCG ('95). They had 4 coaches in those 8 years ( Meyer, Venturi, Marchibroda, Infante)...**although Venturi was just a replacement coach for Meyer for part season** (Colts have had 2 coaches since having Manning, Mora and Dungy). The Colts had 3 seasons with 7 or fewer wins in the 8 seasons prior to Manning.

The NE Patriots BEFORE Brady (9 years). The NE Patriots were closer to the situation of Shula with Griese and Marino. The Patriots of course just prior to Brady had Bledsoe at QB, and Parcells at coach. So even WITh having a HoF coach, and a Franchise QB... the 9 years prior to Brady the NE Patriots were 66-78...45.8%..with 4 playoff seasons ...'94, '96, '97, '98...and one SB appearance... a 3-3 playoff record. The Patriots had 3 coaches in the 8 seasons before Brady (Parcells, Carroll, Belicheck) The Patriots had 4 seasons with 7 or fewer wins in the 8 seasons prior to Brady. **interestingly enough, the Patriots were 10-6, 9-7, 8-8 under Carroll and before Belicheck... and Belicheck raised them to a 5-11 season his first year.. the only year without Brady.**

LOOKING at all the numbers and stats here... Shanahan has the BIGGEST winning percentage of any head coach that has lost a Franchise QB. Shanahan has more playoff seasons than ANY other coach that has lost a franchise QB... other than Landry. But the BIGGEST thing I find interesting... is that the THREE teams that kept the ONE coach
(Pittsburgh, Cowboys, Denver).. are the biggest winners.

DenBronx
05-17-2009, 04:57 PM
but you do not get it mike was both and they are tied together.. the voters will not make that distinction..

If it were just about him being HC like Noll or levy were perhaps..

But he wore all the hats in DEN and will be remembered for the GM as much as his brilliant coaching side..


as I have consistently said most of the voters are not DEN friendly they have their own agendas..



i blame bowlen for that. if bowlen would have taken some or all of the gm responsibilities from shanahan years ago maybe things would have been differant. the problem is shanny always had a yes man gm that no matter what he said the gms would just agree out of fear of losing their own jobs.

based on coaching performance i think is where shanahan needs to be evaluated. i seen someone say it seemed as if we were always one or two key players away from a super bowl. i think if shanahan would have hit the nail on the head in more drafts and free agency we would have easily went to the big show again. heck....if he did it with the browncos then what else needs to be said? he took a bunch of scrubs and got us to the afccg and we play a far better team....how was anyone going to stop pitt in the playoffs? i think if we would have had a nasty dc and stuck with the same scheme/right personel we would have been in the playoffs the last 3 years.

OrangeHoof
05-17-2009, 05:01 PM
He will be remembered for his total screw up in personnel as he will be for his two rings..



Only by you and other haters.

Ravage!!!
05-17-2009, 05:01 PM
I hear people complaining that SHanahan always said that we were "one or two players away".. absolutely we were. ANY team can make a HUGE difference with 1 or 2 GREAT seasons from a player or two.

But.. what did you expect Shanahan to say when asked??? "No, we suck. We have absolutely NO way of winning this season." No. I don't. What he says to the media is a DIRECT line to the players. They must practice, prepare, and go into the games KNOWING that the xpectations are going TO the Super Bowl.. and not just "coasting" until we find those players.

You'll see McDaniels have the same type of responses. He already has.

horsepig
05-17-2009, 05:15 PM
First off, let me say that for the most part I loved Shanny. I just could not take it any more though. The continual decline or the defense and STs was unbearable.

Another thing no-one has mentioned about Mike's rahter negative legacy with the football media around the country is his reputation for fielding smallish, finesse teams that just got their asses handed to'em in some real key games.

That criticism is fair although, it must be acknowledged that Reeves did the same thing. What was remarkable over the last 30 some years was how these two coaches routinely kept the Broncos in the league's elite with no high picks. Unfortunately that is Denver's rep. around the league and Mike will be saddled with that a large part of his post career legacy.

Ravage!!!
05-17-2009, 05:19 PM
First off, let me say that for the most part I loved Shanny. I just could not take it any more though. The continual decline or the defense and STs was unbearable.

Another thing no-one has mentioned about Mike's rahter negative legacy with the football media around the country is his reputation for fielding smallish, finesse teams that just got their asses handed to'em in some real key games.

That criticism is fair although, it must be acknowledged that Reeves did the same thing. What was remarkable over the last 30 some years was how these two coaches routinely kept the Broncos in the league's elite with no high picks. Unfortunately that is Denver's rep. around the league and Mike will be saddled with that a large part of his post career legacy.

Uhmmm.. didn't they say that the Green Bay MASSIVE defensive line would 'crush' and 'stuff' Denver's smallish OL??? The Broncos were high double digit underdogs (at first, then betters odds dropped them) to lose against the DL of Gilbert and company.

Not to mention, the legacy of having RBs gain 1000 yrds year in and year out, no matter who was in the back-field, would completely negate any of the criticisms on OL you are referring to.

horsepig
05-17-2009, 05:37 PM
Good pont Rav, but it doesn't change the national media's perception.

horsepig
05-17-2009, 05:39 PM
Mike gets more props from fellow coaches for that remarkable running back string than from the media.

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 05:42 PM
Good pont Rav, but it doesn't change the national media's perception.

They don't perceive a lot of these extremely minor things that are being brought up.

If there's an anti-Denver bias, there's anti-Denver bias...they won't dissect it to find those things, they'll find other excuses...he didn't do it long enough or he didn't do it without Elway. They won't get into that much detail when they vote.

Shanahan will not be judged on the fans perceived decline in the organization. He will be judged on Elway, the wins and the Cutler situation. The things that were in the media...not this stuff, this stuff doesn't get national mention...this is so minimal...

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 05:46 PM
BTW...there's no real "East Coast Bias" when it comes to the HOF voting. For those who don't know, here's the voters.

Arizona - David Casstevens, Arizona Republic
Atlanta - Furman Bisher, The Atlanta Journal
Baltimore - John Steadman, The Baltimore Sun
Buffalo - Larry Felser, Buffalo News
Carolina - Charles Chandler, Charlotte Observer
Chicago - Don Pierson, Chicago Tribune
Cincinnati - Geoff Hobson, Cincinnati Enquirer
Dallas - Frank Luksa, Dallas Morning News
Denver - Woodrow Paige, Denver Post
Detroit - Jerry Green, The Detroit News
Green Bay - Mike Bauman, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
Indianapolis - John Bansch, Indianapolis Star
Jacksonville - Sam Kouvaris, WJXT-TV, Jacksonville
Kansas City - Bob Gretz, KCFX Overland Park, KS
Miami - Edwin Pope, Miami Herald
Minnesota - Sid Hartman, The Minneapolis Star Tribune
New England - Will McDonough, Boston Globe, NBC Sports
New Orleans - Pete Finney, Times-Picayune
New York (Giants) - Vinny DiTrani, Bergen Record
New York (Jets) - Paul Zimmerman, Sports Illustrated
Oakland - Frank Cooney, Fox Sports
Philadelphia - Mike Rathet, Philadelphia Daily News
Pittsburgh - Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
St. Louis - Bob Oates, Los Angeles Times
San Diego - Jerry Magee, San Diego Union Tribune
San Francisco - Ira Miller, San Francisco Chronicle
Seattle - John Clayton, ESPN/ESPN Magazine
Tampa Bay - Tom McEwen, Tampa Tribune
Tennessee - John McClain, Houston Chronicle
Washington - Len Shapiro, Washington Post
PFWA - Steve Schoenfeld, Arizona Republic/Phoenix Gazette
At Large - Jarrett Bell, USA Today
At Large - Dave Goldberg, Associated Press
At Large - Tony Grossi, Cleveland Plain Dealer
At Large - Peter King, Sports Illustrated
At Large - Mike Wilbon, Washington Post

Lonestar
05-17-2009, 05:58 PM
BTW...there's no real "East Coast Bias" when it comes to the HOF voting. For those who don't know, here's the voters.

Primarily east coast at least east to the Mississippi

Atlanta - Furman Bisher, The Atlanta Journal
Baltimore - John Steadman, The Baltimore Sun
Buffalo - Larry Felser, Buffalo News
Carolina - Charles Chandler, Charlotte Observer
Chicago - Don Pierson, Chicago Tribune
Cincinnati - Geoff Hobson, Cincinnati Enquirer
Detroit - Jerry Green, The Detroit News
Green Bay - Mike Bauman, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
Indianapolis - John Bansch, Indianapolis Star
Jacksonville - Sam Kouvaris, WJXT-TV, Jacksonville
Miami - Edwin Pope, Miami Herald
Minnesota - Sid Hartman, The Minneapolis Star Tribune
New England - Will McDonough, Boston Globe, NBC Sports
New Orleans - Pete Finney, Times-Picayune
New York (Giants) - Vinny DiTrani, Bergen Record
New York (Jets) - Paul Zimmerman, Sports Illustrated
Philadelphia - Mike Rathet, Philadelphia Daily News
Pittsburgh - Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
St. Louis - Bob Oates, Los Angeles Times
Tampa Bay - Tom McEwen, Tampa Tribune
Tennessee - John McClain, Houston Chronicle
Washington - Len Shapiro, Washington Post
At Large - Tony Grossi, Cleveland Plain Dealer
At Large - Mike Wilbon, Washington Post




west of the Mississippi

Arizona - David Casstevens, Arizona Republic
Dallas - Frank Luksa, Dallas Morning News
Denver - Woodrow Paige, Denver Post
Kansas City - Bob Gretz, KCFX Overland Park, KS
Oakland - Frank Cooney, Fox Sports
San Diego - Jerry Magee, San Diego Union Tribune
San Francisco - Ira Miller, San Francisco Chronicle
Seattle - John Clayton, ESPN/ESPN Magazine

PFWA - Steve Schoenfeld, Arizona Republic/Phoenix Gazette



At Large - Jarrett Bell, USA Today
At Large - Dave Goldberg, Associated Press
At Large - Peter King, Sports Illustrated


teams that primnarily play east coast/NFC teams therefore getting very few looks at DEN..

Sorry but the vast majority of voters are watching everone but DEN..

Believe what you want but the total lack of Broncos compared to other teams in the HOF rings true..

good chance if ZIM had not played most of his years in MIN he would not have been voted in..


Not sure how many votes it takes to be voted in but I doubt that the list above will get it..

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 06:00 PM
teams that primnarily play east coast/NFC teams therefore getting very few looks at DEN..

Sorry but the vast majority of voters are watching everone but DEN..

Believe what you want but the total lack of Broncos compared to other teams in the HOF rings true..

good chance if ZIM had not played most of his years in MIN he would not have been voted in..


Not sure how many votes it takes to be voted in but I doubt that the list above will get it..

It is true that more teams are east of the Mississippi than west, that doesn't prove the ridiculous notion of an east coast bias. It is perceived by Broncos fans, and really Broncos fans alone that there is a bias against the Broncos...that screams to me that its just fans being fans...

Lonestar
05-17-2009, 06:13 PM
It is true that more teams are east of the Mississippi than west, that doesn't prove the ridiculous notion of an east coast bias. It is perceived by Broncos fans, and really Broncos fans alone that there is a bias against the Broncos...that screams to me that its just fans being fans...

If your a writer and watching YOUR team going to all of their games home and away how many times are you going to see DEN play unless your in the same conference/ division..

Since the vast majority of those teams are on the east/south coast and not in the Mtn time zone they are more likely to see their team and all of those teams near them and will have interests with them and not SAN or OAK unless they are a contender and get TV time..


When I lived in NY I never got a DEN game and rarely anything past Chicago..

When I lived in LA we were fed DAL, OAK, SFO SAN, and at the time rams games.. and who they played.. unless they were playing DEN I did not get to see them..

That is so obvious to me I do not see how you can't see it.. Of course I have been all over the US and I travel alot so I see what the local stations are carrying..

West coast bias perhaps not BUT if they do not see the player or in this case coach they re less likely to vote for them as they are one of the teams they see week after week.. Division rivals be damned if they vote for someone in the division it props up everyone in the division..

Not everyone is objective as you are..

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 06:17 PM
Not everyone is objective as you are..

I'm not suggesting I am objective...I'm just showing you that these people aren't drones who just see a Bronco and don't vote for them.

You've already had your cake and ate it too on this argument. You first dissect Shanahan's tenure as GM as saying why he won't get in, and then you claim that most of the HOF voters don't pay attention to Denver...

Which is it?

Poet
05-17-2009, 06:42 PM
Shanahan will get in. His name is big enough that people remember.

That's the key.

He actually is a lot better of a coach than I thought he was.

horsepig
05-17-2009, 07:17 PM
I disagree MB. The national media AND the fanbase percieve the Broncos that way. Those nightmare SB losses by a gazillion points stick in the collective memory. That syndrome was why we were such huge dogs to the Packers. Everybody but Denver fans were saying, "Oh, no! Not another extra shitty SB where the crappy little AFC Donkey's are going to their asses handed to'em by the big tough Pack!."

It did not matter what a stellar season the team had. Did not matter at all to the rest fo the country.

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 07:19 PM
I disagree MB. The national media AND the fanbase percieve the Broncos that way. Those nightmare SB losses by a gazillion points stick in the collective memory. That syndrome was why we were such huge dogs to the Packers. Everybody but Denver fans were saying, "Oh, no! Not another extra shitty SB where the crappy little AFC Donkey's are going to their asses handed to'em by the big tough Pack!."

It did not matter what a stellar season the team had. Did not matter at all to the rest fo the country.

How are they perceived? And what, specifically makes you think that ALL media perceives that?

omahacolt
05-17-2009, 07:21 PM
good question


i think shanny is borderline for the hall


cant argue much with the wins and 2 super bowl titles

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 07:22 PM
good question


i think shanny is borderline for the hall


cant argue much with the wins and 2 super bowl titles

OK, guessing from the new member's name, you live in Omaha and root for the Colts...

How do you perceive the Broncos?

horsepig
05-17-2009, 07:30 PM
They are percieved as generally undersized and outclassed talentwise by most everybody in the league. They have been observed as remarkable over acheivers for years and years. That is the teams identity outside Denver.

This perception is two sided. It did make Mike look very smart to be able to achieve such success with so little, but it also begged the question-why doesn't he collect better talent?

omahacolt
05-17-2009, 07:35 PM
OK, guessing from the new member's name, you live in Omaha and root for the Colts...

How do you perceive the Broncos?

big question mark right now. i thought cutler was going to be a good qb for them. dont really know how that trade will work out. i dont blame them for dealing him after he wouldnt take bowlens calls.

i expected the broncos to do different things in the draft. i like moreno so i dont fault them for that. i like ayers as well. but the rest of the draft was odd to me. i expected the front 7 to be addressed early and often.

the division isnt that great. i see the broncos going somewhere around 8-8 and finishing second. not sold on mcdaniels and really thought shanny was a great coach. change is needed sometimes but i dont know if it was the time this year

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 07:36 PM
They are percieved as generally undersized and outclassed talentwise by most everybody in the league. They have been observed as remarkable over acheivers for years and years. That is the teams identity outside Denver.

This perception is two sided. It did make Mike look very smart to be able to achieve such success with so little, but it also begged the question-why doesn't he collect better talent?

Seriously...its the freakin' NFL...

LMAO!

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 07:37 PM
Apparently, we play in the Mountain West.

:pound:

horsepig
05-17-2009, 07:38 PM
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing against Mike for Hall. I just tried to elaborate on the perception of an anti-Denver bias, which I believe does exist. I think this bias will make it harder for him to make the hall than if he'd achieved the same things elsewhere.

horsepig
05-17-2009, 07:39 PM
Why didn't Sharp make it frist ballot? Just because he's a tightend?

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 07:40 PM
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing against Mike for Hall. I just tried to elaborate on the perception of an anti-Denver bias, which I believe does exist. I think this bias will make it harder for him to make the hall than if he'd achieved the same things elsewhere.

The Broncos are undersized overachievers...

LMAO...seriously? You honestly believe that's the perception?

Because the perception here in Kansas City is that Denver is a bunch of bullies. But, hey, I guess that's just Kansas City.

Denver is a major market team, that has had two losing seasons since 1982. If you really believe that's the perception, you're wrong.

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 07:41 PM
Why didn't Sharp make it frist ballot? Just because he's a tightend?

Because he was undersized, according to your argument...lol...

That doesn't explain a damn thing.

Devilspawn
05-17-2009, 07:41 PM
If he doesn't get in, it's because of either A.) not ever coaching again, and therefore not doing it for a long period of time, hall of fame voters are notorious about making it about longevity, or B.) He goes somewhere else and flops.
Two examples are George Seifert and Tom Flores. Seifert had a win percentage better than Madden and Lombardi in his 8 years in San Francisco. He barely made a dent in Carolina, which brought his record way down. Same with Flores, who was 30 games over .500 with the Raiders, 20 games under in his three years in Seattle.

Both have winning records overall
Both have two Superbowls to their credit
Both flopped on their second teams
Both most likely will not make the Hall of Fame

For Shanahan, I was initially going to say yes, and then bathe thoroughly. But I took a look at the coaches, and it's a more elite class than I thought. There are 16 coaches (not including those who became owners) with 14 of them being modern day coaches. Each of the 14 modern day coaches did something that's record breaking.

What will hurt Shanahan is his record after Elway. 1 division title and 1 playoff win, both in the same year, within a ten year span.

I think Shanahan needs to coach somewhere else, probably for 5-7 years, win a title or at least get to a superbowl, to get in. The coaching class is too elite.

horsepig
05-17-2009, 07:54 PM
So you have never heard the prognosicators and analysts go on and on about Denver's outmatched lines? 15-30 lbs/man across the lines, the Broncos don't stand a chance in this one- is what I think I've heard mentioned before.

MOtorboat
05-17-2009, 07:56 PM
So you have never heard the prognosicators and analysts go on and on about Denver's outmatched lines? 15-30 lbs/man across the lines, the Broncos don't stand a chance in this one- is what I think I've heard mentioned before.

No...haven't heard that at all.

Most of the time they rave about the Denver running game. In fact, I've NEVER heard that...

Who have you been listening to? Were they a hall of fame voter?

Slick
05-17-2009, 08:00 PM
So you have never heard the prognosicators and analysts go on and on about Denver's outmatched lines? 15-30 lbs/man across the lines, the Broncos don't stand a chance in this one- is what I think I've heard mentioned before.

I heard that in the 80's and early 90's under Reeves. Once Shanahan came in and with Alex Gibbs help, their lack of size was much less of an issue. The athleticism of those lines wore the big fatties out time and time again.

horsepig
05-17-2009, 08:03 PM
On a lighter note, I remember Stink saying, during a presser, "Come on people, we're a bunch of big fat guys too." Before the GB SB, talking, of course about his O-line versus Gilbert and Reggie White.

McD has stated he wants the team to become an average of 20-30 pounds heavier along the front 7. He would seem to percieve that group as a little smallish.

Slick
05-17-2009, 08:04 PM
Two examples are George Seifert and Tom Flores. Seifert had a win percentage better than Madden and Lombardi in his 8 years in San Francisco. He barely made a dent in Carolina, which brought his record way down. Same with Flores, who was 30 games over .500 with the Raiders, 20 games under in his three years in Seattle.

Both have winning records overall
Both have two Superbowls to their credit
Both flopped on their second teams
Both most likely will not make the Hall of Fame

For Shanahan, I was initially going to say yes, and then bathe thoroughly. But I took a look at the coaches, and it's a more elite class than I thought. There are 16 coaches (not including those who became owners) with 14 of them being modern day coaches. Each of the 14 modern day coaches did something that's record breaking.

What will hurt Shanahan is his record after Elway. 1 division title and 1 playoff win, both in the same year, within a ten year span.

I think Shanahan needs to coach somewhere else, probably for 5-7 years, win a title or at least get to a superbowl, to get in. The coaching class is too elite.

You're probably right. The fan in me wants to believe that if he never coached another game, he still gets in. If it were purely his peers voting, I think there's no question.

Some of the guys on the list that Mo posted...I'm thinking... I'm as qualified, I've seen as much football as they have.

horsepig
05-17-2009, 08:11 PM
You guys are nuts if you haven't heard all the on-going criticism of Denver's undersized, athletic OL and the zone blocking scheme. Yeah it produces some nice holes between the twenties but, they cut block all the time. There are a myriad of criticisms of that line, and there are some accolades too, just way more criticism.

Slick
05-17-2009, 08:22 PM
You guys are nuts if you haven't heard all the on-going criticism of Denver's undersized, athletic OL and the zone blocking scheme. Yeah it produces some nice holes between the twenties but, they cut block all the time. There are a myriad of criticisms of that line, and there are some accolades too, just way more criticism.

I guess being one of the best running teams in football for the last 13-14 years made me ignore any criticism I heard.

But we're digressing. The topic is Shanahan and the Hall, and Jr thinks...no way Jose (even though most of the guys on the list of the superbowl teams are actually guys Shanahan brought in IIRC.) ;)

horsepig
05-17-2009, 08:28 PM
That is what I'm talking about Slick. It has degenerated to name calling, but my point is simply that that anti-Denver bias does exist and will hurt Mike's chances.

BroncoAV06
05-17-2009, 08:30 PM
You guys are nuts if you haven't heard all the on-going criticism of Denver's undersized, athletic OL and the zone blocking scheme. Yeah it produces some nice holes between the twenties but, they cut block all the time. There are a myriad of criticisms of that line, and there are some accolades too, just way more criticism.

Are you using this as a way to support the Denver gets no respect point? Because I am really having a hard tme trying to figure out what you are getting at with all those undersized points.

So Denver did well with a small o-line=Shany is or is not a HOF coach?

So confused.:noidea:

horsepig
05-17-2009, 08:38 PM
Yes, I am just trying to explain why so many deserving Broncos are not already in the Hasll. It is also just my opinion that the same reason Atwater won't get in will hurt Mike's chances. That is all I'm saying.

Apparently I took the wrong tack on trying to explain the anti-Denver thing. The East coast media does still regard Denver as a fly over cow town. One Bronco transcended that perception-Elway. Zim became famous as a Vike.

Lonestar
05-17-2009, 08:47 PM
I'm not suggesting I am objective...I'm just showing you that these people aren't drones who just see a Bronco and don't vote for them.

You've already had your cake and ate it too on this argument. You first dissect Shanahan's tenure as GM as saying why he won't get in, and then you claim that most of the HOF voters don't pay attention to Denver...

Which is it?

I have always maintained that is is both..

For that matter that likelihood of any only bronco getting into the HOF has a slim chance of it happening..

In his case it is a double whammy.. Bronco HC and lousy last few years while leaving the defense devastated..

horsepig
05-17-2009, 08:47 PM
By the way, i am a fan of the quick, athletic O-line and the ZBS. The thing is, you must some exceptional talent at the skill positions to get 6 in the red zone. It becomes tough to just blow your way up the gut for a score. TD could do it, but he was, well, TD.

A player like Griffith that could catch the Dee unaware along with other highpowered receiving options make that scheme work on the goal line. A real problem the last several years was red zone production.

Lonestar
05-17-2009, 08:52 PM
I disagree MB. The national media AND the fan base perceive the Broncos that way. Those nightmare SB losses by a gazillion points stick in the collective memory. That syndrome was why we were such huge dogs to the Packers. Everybody but Denver fans were saying, "Oh, no! Not another extra shitty SB where the crappy little AFC Donkey's are going to their asses handed to'em by the big tough Pack!."

It did not matter what a stellar season the team had. Did not matter at all to the rest of the country.

They saw them choke in the playoffs at home to an expansion team the year before.. which did not help the odds..

they were going up against farve looking for his back to back.. the NFC had not lost to an AFC in God only knows how many years..

horsepig
05-17-2009, 08:56 PM
Good point, as usual, Jr., but the media perception at that time was that the NFC had the beef in the trenches compared to the AFC teams. Denver was the standard bearer for that perception.

horsepig
05-17-2009, 08:58 PM
By the way, thank God Mike signed Alfred Williams and Neil Smith. They didn't even get there without those two.

horsepig
05-17-2009, 09:02 PM
My bottom line opinion is Mike will receive careful consideration, but won't make it without addind something more to his resume.

Nomad
05-18-2009, 07:29 AM
My bottom line opinion is Mike will receive careful consideration, but won't make it without addind something more to his resume.

Like a Cowboy HC job!!;)

Ravage!!!
05-18-2009, 10:02 AM
Only the Denver fans remember the loss in '96 as being such a HUGE deal.

The fact that Denver beat the GB Packers after the AFC lost 13 straight, only strengthens Shanahan's accomplishments.

Considering the NFC dominated the AFC for 13 years, I don't think our small/athletic OL is remembered by anyone.... and CERTAINLY does not 'represent' the AFC (which was suggested above). These are things that are not something that is remembered over time.

These are things that the Denver fan-base will whine about, but no one outside Denver knows or remembers. What they DO know, is that Denver continued to put up 1000 yrd rushers year after year. Fans around the country couldn't tell you a single OL's name, but they do know the stats of the RBs that continue to run in the orange-n-blue.

Fans don't vote on the HoF. I don't know if Shanahan will make it. Its VERY VERY easy to bet against him considering getting INTO the HoF is hard enough as it is. PLayers and coaches of the past got in a LOT easier than they do today. I Do know.. that Shanahan's numbers are EASILY comparible and beat coaches IN the HoF. Some of you want to point out his last few years in Denver as the example of why he shouldn't.... as if every HoF coach never had a bad season.

Noll finished his career in Pittsburgh with a 7-9 record. Landry finished his career with a 7-9, 7-8, 3-13 record. They didn't tarnish his LONG career.

Shanahan isn't through, thats for sure. If Parcells is a HoF coach, there is no way you can tell me Shanahan isn't.

Ravage!!!
05-18-2009, 10:12 AM
and Yes... Shannon Sharpe wasn't voted in on the first ballot because he was a TE. As I posted earlier, we've seen where voters for the baseball HoF vote AGAINST a player simply because they know that no player has ever gotten a unanimous vote...thus they think NO one should get a unanimous vote.

There has never been a TE that has been voted in the first try. If you don't think that has something to do with it, just look at the history of positions and how they seem to repeat as to when they are voted in. How many corners have been voted into the HoF??? Very very few, and they are all from the distant past.

Why is it, there has only been ONE kicker voted in? He was great, but there has been a LOT of great kickers over time that have put up just as good of numbers. Because voters see that the kicker only touches the ball ____% of the time. They now will have a hard time voting the kickers of TODAY in (Elam will not make the HoF) because there have been so many great kickers in the past that haven't been inducted.

Shannon Sharpe wasn't voted in on the first try the same reason people could say the same t hing about Irvin, Monk, and Carter.

Ravage!!!
05-18-2009, 10:27 AM
I also find it interesting, that people keep pointing out that SHanahan won't get another job because no owner is going to give him the same control as he had here in Denver.

YEt.... Cowher has continued to not accept job offers until he gets that control, and everyone knows he is just picking his team as well. Cowher has never had that control, yet its just expected that it will be given to him when he's ready to apply for a job.

1) I don't think Shanahan MUST have the same situation in order to coach. I think a lot of fans around here would like to believe that, but he didn't have it in Oakland when he took that HC job.

2) If Cowher can wait and pick and get what he's looking for, so will Shanahan be able to.

Dean
05-19-2009, 10:50 PM
I also find it interesting, that people keep pointing out that SHanahan won't get another job because no owner is going to give him the same control as he had here in Denver.


1) I don't think Shanahan MUST have the same situation in order to coach. I think a lot of fans around here would like to believe that, but he didn't have it in Oakland when he took that HC job.



It is true that Shanahan did not have control with the Raiders. Mike fired Art Shell and other coaches after Mike's first season as head coach but the Crypt Keeper hired them back. IMO Shanahan will not let himself enter a position like that again.

horsepig
05-21-2009, 09:44 PM
and Yes... Shannon Sharpe wasn't voted in on the first ballot because he was a TE. As I posted earlier, we've seen where voters for the baseball HoF vote AGAINST a player simply because they know that no player has ever gotten a unanimous vote...thus they think NO one should get a unanimous vote.

There has never been a TE that has been voted in the first try. If you don't think that has something to do with it, just look at the history of positions and how they seem to repeat as to when they are voted in. How many corners have been voted into the HoF??? Very very few, and they are all from the distant past.

Why is it, there has only been ONE kicker voted in? He was great, but there has been a LOT of great kickers over time that have put up just as good of numbers. Because voters see that the kicker only touches the ball ____% of the time. They now will have a hard time voting the kickers of TODAY in (Elam will not make the HoF) because there have been so many great kickers in the past that haven't been inducted.

Shannon Sharpe wasn't voted in on the first try the same reason people could say the same t hing about Irvin, Monk, and Carter.

OH FOR CRYING OUT loud! Sharp redefined the position. No. 1 in every category. Who has ebver done more, statistically? 3 SB rings. Easy in IMHO.

Buff
03-28-2023, 04:51 PM
https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/1640752328398745600

Hawgdriver
03-28-2023, 07:12 PM
Should be slam dunk imo.

aberdien
03-28-2023, 07:53 PM
The devils advocate position would argue he rode (goat players) Elway/TD's coattails to 2 SB victories, never was able to replicate that success, and then failed spectacularly with the Redskins - some would say negligently in regards to RGIII.

But when you HC back to back SB wins, it should be a slam dunk.

Hawgdriver
03-28-2023, 08:58 PM
The devils advocate position would argue he rode (goat players) Elway/TD's coattails to 2 SB victories, never was able to replicate that success, and then failed spectacularly with the Redskins - some would say negligently in regards to RGIII.

But when you HC back to back SB wins, it should be a slam dunk.

Between his son's excellence and his singular offensive acumen, he left his imprint on the game of football. Given the championships, it's next to impossible to refute his place in the HOF.

King87
03-28-2023, 09:06 PM
I’ve never seen a HOF coach lack great players. I don’t value that argument very much, Abe. The man also put his great players in position to thrive via scheme, play calling, and all that coach shit.

Shanahan is a top five all time modern football coach. JMO.

aberdien
03-28-2023, 10:18 PM
I didn't say I agreed with the devils advocate opinion, but it is one I have read on the dark web once or twice.

I, like Jaded, am a Shanastan.

BroncoWave
03-28-2023, 10:48 PM
I’ve never seen a HOF coach lack great players. I don’t value that argument very much, Abe. The man also put his great players in position to thrive via scheme, play calling, and all that coach shit.

Shanahan is a top five all time modern football coach. JMO.

Yep, I'd love to see the coach who won multiple super bowls with a bunch of scrubs.

King87
03-28-2023, 11:07 PM
I didn't say I agreed with the devils advocate opinion, but it is one I have read on the dark web once or twice.

I, like Jaded, am a Shanastan.

Just come forward and own your hate.

Denver Native (Carol)
03-29-2023, 06:24 PM
PHOENIX —As the NFL's most important decision makers gathered for the NFL Annual Meeting, so too did some of the most prominent media members who cover the league.

And the consensus among ESPN's Adam Schefter, NBC Sports' Peter King and The MMQB's Albert Breer was that former Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan is worthy of election to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

The winningest coach in Broncos history, Shanahan's legacy spans a number of categories.

"It's unquestioned," King said of Shanahan's impact on the game. "The great thing about Mike is he left his footprints in the sands of the NFL. … I think his legacy is above reproach, and he's one of the great offensive minds in the game."

rest - https://www.denverbroncos.com/news/his-legacy-is-above-reproach-why-prominent-nfl-media-members-believe-mike-shanah

Jsteve01
03-30-2023, 01:12 PM
Without a doubt he's deserving especially when you think about some of the other people that are in. One of the great offensive minds in the history of the league. His big downfall was too much loyalty to bad coordinators and bad personnel decisions. Beyond that you can't question what he was as a head coach and an innovator.

King87
03-30-2023, 08:54 PM
Without a doubt he's deserving especially when you think about some of the other people that are in. One of the great offensive minds in the history of the league. His big downfall was too much loyalty to bad coordinators and bad personnel decisions. Beyond that you can't question what he was as a head coach and an innovator.

Slowik, that'll get you every time.

Jsteve01
03-30-2023, 09:17 PM
Slowik, that'll get you every time.

Bob freaking Slowik. Here's another guy that's a great example of the levels that there are in the league. He was a great defensive backs coach but not a coordinator and there are coordinators that are great coordinators but not head coaches.

King87
03-30-2023, 09:45 PM
Bob freaking Slowik. Here's another guy that's a great example of the levels that there are in the league. He was a great defensive backs coach but not a coordinator and there are coordinators that are great coordinators but not head coaches.

His son might be good, though.

Jsteve01
03-30-2023, 10:16 PM
His son might be good, though.

Touche,. What about his brother?............bro of slow.......sorry...... son of bum would be disappointed in that

Hawgdriver
03-30-2023, 10:25 PM
Touche,. What about his brother?............bro of slow.......sorry...... son of bum would be disappointed in that

:lol:

Gyldenlove
03-31-2023, 01:53 AM
Of course Mike Shanahan deserves to be in the HOF some day.

dogfish
03-31-2023, 12:26 PM
Of course he is.

King87
03-31-2023, 12:59 PM
Who wins in a fight between Shanahan and Abe?

Magnificent Seven
03-31-2023, 01:34 PM
Yes! He should be a HOFer! He was an amazing offensive coordinator for 49ers. He made Elway shock the NFL World by winning the SB in 1997.

aberdien
03-31-2023, 03:29 PM
Who wins in a fight between Shanahan and Abe?

The man is a silver fox, I'm toast.

https://bullcdn.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/mrz8uqoybzmcmo9s9avt.jpg

King87
03-31-2023, 07:40 PM
To be fair, that is one of your absolutely high amount of weaknesses. Just wait till Jimmy G is 60; you're so screwed.

Bronco Yoda
04-01-2023, 06:37 PM
Yes!

capt. Jack
06-07-2023, 03:50 PM
I think so, we had some Great offenses when Shanny was the HC.
He won two Super bowls as head coach, after the Broncos couldn't win a Super Bowl in many attempts.

Chillez
07-04-2023, 03:29 PM
Yes without a doubt Mike deserves it.

dogfish
07-04-2023, 06:57 PM
The man is a silver fox, I'm toast.



More like spray tan bronze.

JPPT1974
07-22-2023, 02:12 PM
If you won two SB's that could help you out but it has been passed the five year limit for Mike S!

Nomad
07-22-2023, 08:57 PM
Mike Shanahan will get into the HOF next summer! He deserves it. Geaux, Coach Mike.

tubby
07-25-2023, 07:21 PM
The reason RB's don't get paid.......... Mike Shanahan