Why We Traded the Picks

[WARHORSE]

Been thinkin about this. Pissed of course at first. But I like everything about Josh so far sans the Cutler saga, but thats done.


With Alphonso Smith, you have the top rated CB on the Broncos draft board (and others as well) at a second round price for minimum four years.

If he pans out, thats a VERY good move wouldnt you say? A first round player at a second round price. Not only on the field, but for financial purpposes as well. Not to mention Champ will be looking to get paid soon.

Even if we end up with a top ten pick.........which we wont........if Smith starts for years to come, it was worth it, PLUS, we have him THIS year, not next.

On top of that, I think McDaniels knows who we have to defeat if we're gonna win this year............and its going to take good corners. What happens if Champ goes down again? If he does, McDaniels looks smart all the way around.

While no one else in the league seemed to value Quinn as much as we did, I believe I can see why McDaniels took him.

We had Scheffler on the block. As good as a receiver Scheff is, can he block like Graham (no), and will he be on the field or off due to injury?

Remove Scheffler from the mix and who plays TE in the two TE sets? Putzier? He sucks, plain and simple. He cant block and hes not much as a reciever.

McDaniels had the fifth rated rushing game in the league, and he liked to run/pass out of two TE sets.

So, if we line up with our offensive line, which is killer already, and then add the the best run blocking TE in the game in Graham, and also the best run blocking TE coming out of college.........Id like to think we have a very formidable set staring into the opposing defenses eyes.

If we choose to run out of that set, man....that is a mauling line.

Thats SEVEN road grading studs to contend with. Are you going to bring down a safety? Well, that leave us a hat on a hat with Knowshon in the backfield. Seven Oline and Knowshon vs their front seven and a SS in the box.

That leaves two corners on Marshall and Eddie with one safety behind.

Pick a side.

Not only that, but if we run effectively, then wont they have to put both safeties downstairs? That leaves us one on one outside. Even Orton can take advantage of that. That doesnt even take into consideration that Knowshon can go out on a route.

Not too many teams have the defenses to deal with that.

All of a sudden, Quinn, the best run blocking TE in the draft looks mighty good..................er..............not to mention the receiving skills of both he and Graham.

Graham we know can catch. And Quinn only had 12 receptions, but did anyone watch him at the combine catching the ball? Very, very soft hands. Effortless.

What will the front seven do? Get run over or cover?

A dominating run blocker TE that can catch is very valuable to McDaniels offense.


I like what he did, cause I think I understand it more. As much as I like Scheff......he CANNOT dominate as a blocker, and he has problems staying healthy.

That said, Im sure he will be used as well.


Peace Broncos fans.

[Shazam!]

Cooler heads have prevailed! Nice analysis.

What's with the blue?

[topscribe]

Pretty good post, except for one detail:

Putzier is a very good receiver. His blocking is what is lacking . . .

-----

[WARHORSE]

Cooler heads have prevailed! Nice analysis.

What's with the blue?


What blue?:coffee:

[Shazam!]

The blue text... oh, never mind.

[DenBronx]

if our first 3 picks all become starters and play at a high level then who will even argue with this draft? i think round 1 was very good for us but the biggest measuring stick in this draft is going to be alphonso smith.

hopefully smith will be better than bly, paymah, d-will and foxy. champ only has a few years left to play at a high level and it would be nice to see db #2 actually make plays. i'm just concerned about smith in coverage.

[WARHORSE]

Pretty good post, except for one detail:

Putzier is a very good receiver. His blocking is what is lacking . . .

-----

Matter of opinion and he sucks in mine. Thats why he got canned.

But still, in the run game, you can see why McD wants killer roadgraders for TEs.

[WARHORSE]

Richard Quinn, TE (http://www.nfl.com/combine/players?filterType=positionGroup&filterCond=TE)

Height:
6'4"
Weight:
264 College:
North Carolina (http://www.nfl.com/combine/players?filterType=college&filterCond=North Carolina) Conference:
ACC (http://www.nfl.com/combine/players?filterType=conference&filterCond=ACC)

Click the link and play the video on the right.........very soft hands. Textbook display of receiving with hands.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2009/profiles/richard-quinn?id=71443






Overview
With only 12 career receptions for 124 yards and two touchdowns, Quinn's value lies in his blocking. Nicknamed "Big Rich," he plays up to his moniker, giving the Tar Heels essentially another offensive tackle at the line of scrimmage. With many of today's NFL offenses preferring receiving specialists at tight end, Quinn could still be waiting to hear his name called late in the draft. However, there are always teams on the lookout for physical run blockers capable of sneaking off the line of scrimmage for short-yardage passes. In this capacity, Quinn could find a niche in the pros. Had an arm span of 33 1/2 inches and a hand span of 9 1/2 inches at the combine.


Analysis
Positives: Naturally large man with a powerful upper and lower body. Good initial quickness off the snap to gain an advantage as a run blocker. Good hand placement and upper body strength to pop the defender. Plays with leverage. Can get under the pads of the defender and drive him off the line of scrimmage. Has the phone booth quickness to get to the second level and shows at least adequate lateral quickness to block in space. Uses his big frame to shield defenders from the ball as a receiver. At least marginal hands for the reception. Gets low and can run through arm-tackles to gain positive yardage after the reception.

[Timmy!]

Been thinkin about this. Pissed of course at first. But I like everything about Josh so far sans the Cutler saga, but thats done.


With Alphonso Smith, you have the top rated CB on the Broncos draft board (and others as well) at a second round price for minimum four years.

If he pans out, thats a VERY good move wouldnt you say? A first round player at a second round price. Not only on the field, but for financial purpposes as well. Not to mention Champ will be looking to get paid soon.

Even if we end up with a top ten pick.........which we wont........if Smith starts for years to come, it was worth it, PLUS, we have him THIS year, not next.

On top of that, I think McDaniels knows who we have to defeat if we're gonna win this year............and its going to take good corners. What happens if Champ goes down again? If he does, McDaniels looks smart all the way around.

While no one else in the league seemed to value Quinn as much as we did, I believe I can see why McDaniels took him.

We had Scheffler on the block. As good as a receiver Scheff is, can he block like Graham (no), and will he be on the field or off due to injury?

Remove Scheffler from the mix and who plays TE in the two TE sets? Putzier? He sucks, plain and simple. He cant block and hes not much as a reciever.

McDaniels had the fifth rated rushing game in the league, and he liked to run/pass out of two TE sets.

So, if we line up with our offensive line, which is killer already, and then add the the best run blocking TE in the game in Graham, and also the best run blocking TE coming out of college.........Id like to think we have a very formidable set staring into the opposing defenses eyes.

If we choose to run out of that set, man....that is a mauling line.

Thats SEVEN road grading studs to contend with. Are you going to bring down a safety? Well, that leave us a hat on a hat with Knowshon in the backfield. Seven Oline and Knowshon vs their front seven and a SS in the box.

That leaves two corners on Marshall and Eddie with one safety behind.

Pick a side.

Not only that, but if we run effectively, then wont they have to put both safeties downstairs? That leaves us one on one outside. Even Orton can take advantage of that. That doesnt even take into consideration that Knowshon can go out on a route.

Not too many teams have the defenses to deal with that.

All of a sudden, Quinn, the best run blocking TE in the draft looks mighty good..................er..............not to mention the receiving skills of both he and Graham.

Graham we know can catch. And Quinn only had 12 receptions, but did anyone watch him at the combine catching the ball? Very, very soft hands. Effortless.

What will the front seven do? Get run over or cover?

A dominating run blocker TE that can catch is very valuable to McDaniels offense.


I like what he did, cause I think I understand it more. As much as I like Scheff......he CANNOT dominate as a blocker, and he has problems staying healthy.

That said, Im sure he will be used as well.


Peace Broncos fans.

I will disagree on one thing. Putz is very good as a receiver, any Bronco fan who remembers some of his stats (with the Snake as the QB, remember?) knows this. He does, however, suck as a blocker. I think the Quinn pick is Grahams eventual replacement, and serious beef in 2 TE running formations/goal line. He's Mustards replacement for the short term.

[LTC Pain]

Richard Quinn, TE (http://www.nfl.com/combine/players?filterType=positionGroup&filterCond=TE)

Height:
6'4"
Weight:
264 College:
North Carolina (http://www.nfl.com/combine/players?filterType=college&filterCond=North Carolina) Conference:
ACC (http://www.nfl.com/combine/players?filterType=conference&filterCond=ACC)

Click the link and play the video on the right.........very soft hands. Textbook display of receiving with hands.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2009/profiles/richard-quinn?id=71443






Overview
With only 12 career receptions for 124 yards and two touchdowns, Quinn's value lies in his blocking. Nicknamed "Big Rich," he plays up to his moniker, giving the Tar Heels essentially another offensive tackle at the line of scrimmage. With many of today's NFL offenses preferring receiving specialists at tight end, Quinn could still be waiting to hear his name called late in the draft. However, there are always teams on the lookout for physical run blockers capable of sneaking off the line of scrimmage for short-yardage passes. In this capacity, Quinn could find a niche in the pros. Had an arm span of 33 1/2 inches and a hand span of 9 1/2 inches at the combine.


Analysis
Positives: Naturally large man with a powerful upper and lower body. Good initial quickness off the snap to gain an advantage as a run blocker. Good hand placement and upper body strength to pop the defender. Plays with leverage. Can get under the pads of the defender and drive him off the line of scrimmage. Has the phone booth quickness to get to the second level and shows at least adequate lateral quickness to block in space. Uses his big frame to shield defenders from the ball as a receiver. At least marginal hands for the reception. Gets low and can run through arm-tackles to gain positive yardage after the reception.

Phone booth quickness? Never heard that before!

[T.K.O.]

absolutely agree with the op,its good to see a clear understanding of who and why we drafted the way we did.
mcd may not get us back to the playoffs in his rookie season(with the brutal schedule ),but i know he has a plan and we will be a stronger,more unified team. and if we can win those 1st 3 games who knows? the team might just get "an attitude" and make a great run !:salute:

[Fan in Exile]

The big problem with the explanation is that it misses the point that Quinn isn't just a run blocker. Sure he only had 12 catches in college but everyone who saw him at the combine said that he was a great pass catcher, the reports from McDaniels also said the same thing.

[WARHORSE]

The big problem with the explanation is that it misses the point that Quinn isn't just a run blocker. Sure he only had 12 catches in college but everyone who saw him at the combine said that he was a great pass catcher, the reports from McDaniels also said the same thing.


Read the sixth line from the bottom of the original post, and post #8.

Hands are on display.

[CoachChaz]

Nice post. To be quite honest, I'd personally be more afraid of Ayers being a bust than I would Smith...but that's just my amateur opinion.

[SOCALORADO.]

Nice post. To be quite honest, I'd personally be more afraid of Ayers being a bust than I would Smith...but that's just my amateur opinion.

Are you in Recon?

[underrated29]

Nice post. To be quite honest, I'd personally be more afraid of Ayers being a bust than I would Smith...but that's just my amateur opinion.

That would be my biggest concern as well. However, at sr camp or combine. Ayers was owning all of the top prospects at LT. now thats just in a phone booth so who knows, but the fact that he did dominate ALL of the top players is a good sign.

[NightTrainLayne]

Are you in Recon?

No, he's in Dallas. :D :laugh:

[Fan in Exile]

Read the sixth line from the bottom of the original post, and post #8.

Hands are on display.

Perhaps what we have here is a failure to communicate. IMO a run blocker who can catch as you describe him is somebody who produces like Quinn did in college. It's also what you describe in your scenerio being the second TE in a jumbo package. It's not worth a second round pick.

What McDaniels talked about after the draft is a balanced TE, who isn't just there to block and offer a quick dump-off. He should be running routes etc. That's a TE worth a second round pick.

[Grover]

As far as Coach Chaz's comments about Ayers vs. Smith being a bust.......


There's a dozen or more ways to analyze that situation. Smith potentially being a bust is more concerning in my opinion, first because of the price we paid to get him (opportunity cost) but also because he's out there on an island and mistakes will be amplified. Seems to me he's gotta develop into near Champ Bailey status for him not to be considered a "bust". Okay, that's probably an exaggeration, but he's gotta be better than Dre' Bly certainly or it will always be "who we could have gotten instead of that munchkin bum".

As far as Ayer's bustitude is concerned, it depends on who you compare him to. Do you compare him to the long line of other Broncos first round draft busts? If that's the measure, then I think Ayers has a chance to be a good player for us. Do you compare his career here to what Brian Orakpo and Larry English will do with their teams? Those are the front seven players selected after our #12 pick that we had an opportunity to take instead of Moreno. That will be interesting to see in the future and saying "what if we went defense with pick #12". But I'm happy with Moreno at 12 and Ayers at 18, and I'm not looking back.

Personally, we've had so many marginal players in the front three or four, that I'm just hoping that Ayers can be substantially better than Moss, Crowder, Sam Adams, Robertson, etc. Based on that, I'm giving Ayer's a pretty good chance not to be considered a "bust".

[dogfish]

why we traded the picks: alternate theory


because we have a first-time head coach and a first-time GM, and they're really not sure what they're doing. . . .



hehe-- don't mind me, i'm just stirring shit up. . . . i can actually see both points of view, and right now i'm calling it about fifty-fifty as to which one actually plays out. . . either doogie really is smarter than everyone else, his master plan is going to work out fine and we're going to be a better team than we have been. . . ooor, he and xanders are dumbass novices that were just blundering around out there, and we're going to win five games this year and six next year, and then they're going to get canned. . . . we can all form our opinions and venture guesses, but in the end it has to play out on the field for us to know for sure. . . we'll see. . . .

i personally hated the reckless abandon with which we were burning picks, but what do i know? i think it's kinda funny that there has always been such a prevailing sentiment against trading up around these boards (and mania as well), but when we go out and do it not once but four times in one draft, suddenly everyone is fine with it and we were just "being aggressive to get the guys we wanted". . .

*shrugs*

i've really never been against moving up myself, although trading back and stockpiling picks (new england friggin' dominated) is generally preferable, but the amount of value that we burned did make me wince. . . we gave up an awful lot to draft the guys mcxanders wanted-- they better prove to be worth it, or we're out a lot of picks that could have potentially helped this franchise. . . .

[Superchop 7]

It would have been a nice draft for alot of teams.

Problem is, it was a dumb draft for Denver.

[Lonestar]

why we traded the picks: alternate theory


because we have a first-time head coach and a first-time GM, and they're really not sure what they're doing. . . .



hehe-- don't mind me, i'm just stirring shit up. . . . i can actually see both points of view, and right now i'm calling it about fifty-fifty as to which one actually plays out. . . either doogie really is smarter than everyone else, his master plan is going to work out fine and we're going to be a better team than we have been. . . ooor, he and xanders are dumbass novices that were just blundering around out there, and we're going to win five games this year and six next year, and then they're going to get canned. . . . we can all form our opinions and venture guesses, but in the end it has to play out on the field for us to know for sure. . . we'll see. . . .

i personally hated the reckless abandon with which we were burning picks, but what do i know? i think it's kinda funny that there has always been such a prevailing sentiment against trading up around these boards (and mania as well), but when we go out and do it not once but four times in one draft, suddenly everyone is fine with it and we were just "being aggressive to get the guys we wanted". . .

*shrugs*

i've really never been against moving up myself, although trading back and stockpiling picks (new england friggin' dominated) is generally preferable, but the amount of value that we burned did make me wince. . . we gave up an awful lot to draft the guys mcxanders wanted-- they better prove to be worth it, or we're out a lot of picks that could have potentially helped this franchise. . . .


You could be right about them screwing the pooch..

BUT I think I see the light at the end of the tunnel.. While I do not see this being a wining team this coming year I do not think it would have been with mike either..

I do not think that jay would have been any better than Cassell or perhaps Orton would be inside the controlled passing game that is coming to DEN..

Idea
Side note here.. I Had this thought the other day.. Could jay have wanted out of DEN because last year was a perfect storm for him.. almost no running game or at least bates was calling passing as the preferred method of moving the ball..

Brady hurt and out of action.. rivers coming on strong as was flaco, the kid from MIA,, manning.. Now all of those players are gonna be stronger next year.. giving jay that much less a chance of earning that extra mil for being a pro bowler.. but going to an NFC (which we all knew had to happen) what other pro bowlers are there. Breeze, maybe Rodgers or E Manning if the defense has another great? he knew he would be hard pressed to make that cool mil if he was still in DEN and almost a sure thing in the NFC..

/Idea

Would I have like another 3-4 first day picks sure, but IF these kids are who he thinks they are, better to get them on the field this year and making us stronger for next year and beyond..

Afterall he, the coaches and his scouts knew what they had from last year and what/where they wanted to go this year.. Lets let them do what the want to do as the more I hear from him the more it makes sense..

[WARHORSE]

Perhaps what we have here is a failure to communicate. IMO a run blocker who can catch as you describe him is somebody who produces like Quinn did in college. It's also what you describe in your scenerio being the second TE in a jumbo package. It's not worth a second round pick.

What McDaniels talked about after the draft is a balanced TE, who isn't just there to block and offer a quick dump-off. He should be running routes etc. That's a TE worth a second round pick.


Agreed for the most part.

But I think that there are TEs like Scheffler, who are more receiving threats vs run blockers, are not second round talent according to Josh McD, while being so for other teams.

Josh wants what fits his scheme in which he wants to be able to dominate in the run. While a T. Gonzales is the type of guy you wish for, Quinn is the guy who is second round talent for Josh, but wouldnt be for other teams.

No different than us not taking Orakpo. It isnt because hes not a talent, hes just not the talent for us.

I think Pioli pulled the same thing off at 3 with Jackson. He was the most talented person on the board for what they are trying to do in KC now.

[WARHORSE]

why we traded the picks: alternate theory


because we have a first-time head coach and a first-time GM, and they're really not sure what they're doing. . . .



hehe-- don't mind me, i'm just stirring shit up. . . . i can actually see both points of view, and right now i'm calling it about fifty-fifty as to which one actually plays out. . . either doogie really is smarter than everyone else, his master plan is going to work out fine and we're going to be a better team than we have been. . . ooor, he and xanders are dumbass novices that were just blundering around out there, and we're going to win five games this year and six next year, and then they're going to get canned. . . . we can all form our opinions and venture guesses, but in the end it has to play out on the field for us to know for sure. . . we'll see. . . .

i personally hated the reckless abandon with which we were burning picks, but what do i know? i think it's kinda funny that there has always been such a prevailing sentiment against trading up around these boards (and mania as well), but when we go out and do it not once but four times in one draft, suddenly everyone is fine with it and we were just "being aggressive to get the guys we wanted". . .

*shrugs*

i've really never been against moving up myself, although trading back and stockpiling picks (new england friggin' dominated) is generally preferable, but the amount of value that we burned did make me wince. . . we gave up an awful lot to draft the guys mcxanders wanted-- they better prove to be worth it, or we're out a lot of picks that could have potentially helped this franchise. . . .


One thing we cannot say, and that is that McDaniels has been indecisive.


He was very meticulous and calculating in what they did in both free agency and the draft.


Personally, Im impressed.


But we'll see in a couple of months.:salute:

[Grover]

from Warhorse

One thing we cannot say, and that is that McDaniels has been indecisive.

He was very meticulous and calculating in what they did in both free agency and the draft.

Personally, Im impressed.

But we'll see in a couple of months.


and that's why I believe that McDaniels and Xanders executed a plan during the draft, and were not just reacting and not knowing what they were doing.

I will also note that McDaniels was meticulous and calculating in the way he added 17 free agents in just a couple days after the draft. They added talented players as positions of need. Maybe some with character and injury issues, but the risks are inexpensive and have a potentially high reward.

I think the team of McDaniels and Xanders know what they want to do and are working on accomplishing it. Are they better than the Patriots and Steelers at choosing talent? Probably not, but they've got about two years to see what they can do I believe.

[WARHORSE]

That would be my biggest concern as well. However, at sr camp or combine. Ayers was owning all of the top prospects at LT. now thats just in a phone booth so who knows, but the fact that he did dominate ALL of the top players is a good sign.



I like Ayers and believe hes going to be a stud. How long it takes him to come into his own remains to be seen, but I believe he has the mentality and the ability to do some real damage.


His heads going to be swimming for awhile thats for sure, but I like the coaching staff and believe we can coach him up sooner rather than later.

[broncohead]

The big problem with the explanation is that it misses the point that Quinn isn't just a run blocker. Sure he only had 12 catches in college but everyone who saw him at the combine said that he was a great pass catcher, the reports from McDaniels also said the same thing.

Ya because combine workouts are everything on the field... It's easy to train specific drills it's another to do it on game day. We will see though

[T.K.O.]

i already posted this in the war room thread ,but it does shine some light on mcD's logic on draft day......


At almost every opportunity to throw the Broncos defense of 2008 under any passing Greyhound, first-year Broncos coach Josh McDaniels has instead offered something on the order of:

"We want to make the whole team better."

Good thing. Because with a draft board full of hopefuls staring them in the face, a closer look at the Broncos' special teams numbers from the past year reveals almost as big a job as repairing a defense that has surrendered 400 points in back-to-back seasons.



GO BRONCOS !:salute:

[atwater27]

Been thinkin about this. Pissed of course at first. But I like everything about Josh so far sans the Cutler saga, but thats done.


With Alphonso Smith, you have the top rated CB on the Broncos draft board (and others as well) at a second round price for minimum four years.

If he pans out, thats a VERY good move wouldnt you say? A first round player at a second round price. Not only on the field, but for financial purpposes as well. Not to mention Champ will be looking to get paid soon.

Even if we end up with a top ten pick.........which we wont........if Smith starts for years to come, it was worth it, PLUS, we have him THIS year, not next.

On top of that, I think McDaniels knows who we have to defeat if we're gonna win this year............and its going to take good corners. What happens if Champ goes down again? If he does, McDaniels looks smart all the way around.

While no one else in the league seemed to value Quinn as much as we did, I believe I can see why McDaniels took him.

We had Scheffler on the block. As good as a receiver Scheff is, can he block like Graham (no), and will he be on the field or off due to injury?

Remove Scheffler from the mix and who plays TE in the two TE sets? Putzier? He sucks, plain and simple. He cant block and hes not much as a reciever.

McDaniels had the fifth rated rushing game in the league, and he liked to run/pass out of two TE sets.

So, if we line up with our offensive line, which is killer already, and then add the the best run blocking TE in the game in Graham, and also the best run blocking TE coming out of college.........Id like to think we have a very formidable set staring into the opposing defenses eyes.

If we choose to run out of that set, man....that is a mauling line.

Thats SEVEN road grading studs to contend with. Are you going to bring down a safety? Well, that leave us a hat on a hat with Knowshon in the backfield. Seven Oline and Knowshon vs their front seven and a SS in the box.

That leaves two corners on Marshall and Eddie with one safety behind.

Pick a side.

Not only that, but if we run effectively, then wont they have to put both safeties downstairs? That leaves us one on one outside. Even Orton can take advantage of that. That doesnt even take into consideration that Knowshon can go out on a route.

Not too many teams have the defenses to deal with that.

All of a sudden, Quinn, the best run blocking TE in the draft looks mighty good..................er..............not to mention the receiving skills of both he and Graham.

Graham we know can catch. And Quinn only had 12 receptions, but did anyone watch him at the combine catching the ball? Very, very soft hands. Effortless.

What will the front seven do? Get run over or cover?

A dominating run blocker TE that can catch is very valuable to McDaniels offense.


I like what he did, cause I think I understand it more. As much as I like Scheff......he CANNOT dominate as a blocker, and he has problems staying healthy.

That said, Im sure he will be used as well.


Peace Broncos fans.

Great thread! Way to start chipping away at my anti-McDaniels armor.

[T.K.O.]

from Warhorse



and that's why I believe that McDaniels and Xanders executed a plan during the draft, and were not just reacting and not knowing what they were doing.

I .

well , with one HUGE exception i agree.
i think neither mcD nor x believed that moreno would still be there at 12,and probably planned on using 12 & 18 for DL guys.
but when knowshon was there it was too much for an offensive minded coach to resist !

[horsepig]

It will all come out in the wash. I still think McD over spent on some picks. If Smith is as good as they think then it made perfect sense to lose an expensive no. 1 and sign him now, if not, what a busto.

Again Belichek is leading the pack, i. e., lose your 1'sts and sign 3 or 4 2'nds for the same or less money. The league has to do something about paying 1'sts so frickin much money before you know if they can even sing their fight song.

[Simple Jaded]

We'll see how much the sentiment changes if Seattle is drafting an actual Impact player with that pick.......And if money has anything do with that trade, then Bowlen is in the wrong business and he needs to move on.

It's controversial for a reason, because most objective people think it's incredibly stupid to trade a 1st round pick for a 2nd round talent.......

[BroncoAV06]

You could be right about them screwing the pooch..

BUT I think I see the light at the end of the tunnel.. While I do not see this being a wining team this coming year I do not think it would have been with mike either..

I do not think that jay would have been any better than Cassell or perhaps Orton would be inside the controlled passing game that is coming to DEN..

Idea
Side note here.. I Had this thought the other day.. Could jay have wanted out of DEN because last year was a perfect storm for him.. almost no running game or at least bates was calling passing as the preferred method of moving the ball..

Brady hurt and out of action.. rivers coming on strong as was flaco, the kid from MIA,, manning.. Now all of those players are gonna be stronger next year.. giving jay that much less a chance of earning that extra mil for being a pro bowler.. but going to an NFC (which we all knew had to happen) what other pro bowlers are there. Breeze, maybe Rodgers or E Manning if the defense has another great? he knew he would be hard pressed to make that cool mil if he was still in DEN and almost a sure thing in the NFC..

/Idea

Would I have like another 3-4 first day picks sure, but IF these kids are who he thinks they are, better to get them on the field this year and making us stronger for next year and beyond..

Afterall he, the coaches and his scouts knew what they had from last year and what/where they wanted to go this year.. Lets let them do what the want to do as the more I hear from him the more it makes sense..

I find it hard that 1 million is going to make Jay all of a sudden want a trade to the NFC because he feels he has a better chance at the pro bowl, thats right up their with the we have never been to the moon people.

Player/Coach rift got out of control, end of story.

[bcbronc]

a bit OT but something that has been chaffing my hide since draft day...


we traded next years #1 for a second, and the negative nellies say Smith should be evaluated as a 1st round pick. fair enough.

but then we trade two 3rds for a 2nd and a 4th, and the same negative nellies say we shouldn't have used a 2nd rounder to take a blocking TE. its a bit inconsistant imo; either we consider the player at the spot taken, or with the pick we traded to acquire the player at the spot taken. but it can't be one way for one player, and another way for the next player. not a big deal, really, but still annoying.


back on topic, I agree with WAR. you can see the rational behind the players taken where they were. now we just have to see how well the new regime does at evaluating talent and setting their draft board. they got the players they wanted, now its just a matter of whether they wanted the right players.

[Lonestar]

I find it hard that 1 million is going to make Jay all of a sudden want a trade to the NFC because he feels he has a better chance at the pro bowl, thats right up their with the we have never been to the moon people.

Player/Coach rift got out of control, end of story.


so why did it get out of control..

You do not think that getting a new contract or getting out of Den after mike and bates let have anything to do with it.

You do not think that after seeing the playbook he might have seen the writing on the wall when there were few if any long and deep passes in it after seeing he would be a system QB.. in a controlled Passing game..

Knowing that he would not get his way and any chance of going back the pro bowl..

frankly I think the pissing match got out of hand because his agent whispered in his ear after the shared thoughts about getting a new contract after seeing what manning and group made setting around the pool in HNL..


talk about man on the moon stuff all you want but I think buss told him he could get him a lot more money if they played hard ball.. considering all teh cahnges going on around him..

[Fan in Exile]

Agreed for the most part.

But I think that there are TEs like Scheffler, who are more receiving threats vs run blockers, are not second round talent according to Josh McD, while being so for other teams.

Josh wants what fits his scheme in which he wants to be able to dominate in the run. While a T. Gonzales is the type of guy you wish for, Quinn is the guy who is second round talent for Josh, but wouldnt be for other teams.

No different than us not taking Orakpo. It isnt because hes not a talent, hes just not the talent for us.

I think Pioli pulled the same thing off at 3 with Jackson. He was the most talented person on the board for what they are trying to do in KC now.

I don't think that his scheme is to dominate the running game. At least so far his scheme has been to adjust to the team that they are playing. Which is why I believe that he saw Quinn as a second round value. When he's needed to block he will when he has to run routes he'll do that too.

[Dirk]

they got the players they wanted, now its just a matter of whether they wanted the right players.

Exactly! :salute:

I will give them the benefit of the doubt at least until mid season. :D

[WARHORSE]

I don't think that his scheme is to dominate the running game. At least so far his scheme has been to adjust to the team that they are playing. Which is why I believe that he saw Quinn as a second round value. When he's needed to block he will when he has to run routes he'll do that too.


Im pretty sure the idea is to dominate when we run, and dominate when we pass......which includes the adjustments.

Quinn, even though he may turn out to be a good receiver, he hasnt shown himself to be so yet, and he doesnt have the speed to stretch the field, so he will never be a Gonzales type. My opinion of course.

Quinn was the best blocking TE in the draft, and Im pretty sure thats what is more important to Josh vs receiving. Granted we drafted him hoping he will do both adequately, but his blocking is definitely his strength at this point.

[WARHORSE]

Great thread! Way to start chipping away at my anti-McDaniels armor.

Im still working on my own in the process.............youre welcome to the collateral encouragement though.............:beer:

[WARHORSE]

We'll see how much the sentiment changes if Seattle is drafting an actual Impact player with that pick.......And if money has anything do with that trade, then Bowlen is in the wrong business and he needs to move on.

It's controversial for a reason, because most objective people think it's incredibly stupid to trade a 1st round pick for a 2nd round talent.......

Well, if Bill Belichick had given up a first rounder to get Tom Brady in the sixth round, everyone would have called him a dummy including myself.

So until Smith busts, we dont know at this point whether the trade was a bad decision or not.

If Smith picks off ten passes this year, then all of ESPN and NFL Network will be calling McMuffin a stud genius for his leadership and decisiveness.


And so will all of us.


Besides, our pick next year in the first can be a top five and still bust.

That includes the position of QB.

[Fan in Exile]

Im pretty sure the idea is to dominate when we run, and dominate when we pass......which includes the adjustments.

Quinn, even though he may turn out to be a good receiver, he hasnt shown himself to be so yet, and he doesnt have the speed to stretch the field, so he will never be a Gonzales type. My opinion of course.

Quinn was the best blocking TE in the draft, and Im pretty sure thats what is more important to Josh vs receiving. Granted we drafted him hoping he will do both adequately, but his blocking is definitely his strength at this point.

Well if you're pretty sure then I guess we can just throw out everything he did as an OC.

[LoyalSoldier]

The only way I am going to see "Why we traded these picks" is when I see these kids play. Only then can I get a good idea if they were worth the risk.

[BroncoAV06]

so why did it get out of control..

You do not think that getting a new contract or getting out of Den after mike and bates let have anything to do with it.

You do not think that after seeing the playbook he might have seen the writing on the wall when there were few if any long and deep passes in it after seeing he would be a system QB.. in a controlled Passing game..

Knowing that he would not get his way and any chance of going back the pro bowl..

frankly I think the pissing match got out of hand because his agent whispered in his ear after the shared thoughts about getting a new contract after seeing what manning and group made setting around the pool in HNL..


talk about man on the moon stuff all you want but I think buss told him he could get him a lot more money if they played hard ball.. considering all teh cahnges going on around him..

I will talk about man on the moon stuff when one theory is an extra 1 million is a reason he wanted out. Of course there was alot more to the siuation then we will most likely ever know. And we can all through out are thoughts. All I was responding to was the idea that being a pro bowler played a role in it.

I guess I just missed when the whole money issue came up. I thought it was more about being upset Mike was gone and not getting along with McD because McD failed at getting who he wanted to run the offense.

Back on topic-quality post horse. 1st round picks will always get people up in arms but like every argument when it comes to sports all you can do is wait to see what happens on the field. The moves did make me scratch my head but no reason to get upset now, they are Broncos and I will be rooting hard for them come Sunday.

[Bad Intentions]

Been thinkin about this. Pissed of course at first. But I like everything about Josh so far sans the Cutler saga, but thats done.


With Alphonso Smith, you have the top rated CB on the Broncos draft board (and others as well) at a second round price for minimum four years.

If he pans out, thats a VERY good move wouldnt you say? A first round player at a second round price. Not only on the field, but for financial purpposes as well. Not to mention Champ will be looking to get paid soon.

Even if we end up with a top ten pick.........which we wont........if Smith starts for years to come, it was worth it, PLUS, we have him THIS year, not next.

On top of that, I think McDaniels knows who we have to defeat if we're gonna win this year............and its going to take good corners. What happens if Champ goes down again? If he does, McDaniels looks smart all the way around.

While no one else in the league seemed to value Quinn as much as we did, I believe I can see why McDaniels took him.

We had Scheffler on the block. As good as a receiver Scheff is, can he block like Graham (no), and will he be on the field or off due to injury?

Remove Scheffler from the mix and who plays TE in the two TE sets? Putzier? He sucks, plain and simple. He cant block and hes not much as a reciever.

McDaniels had the fifth rated rushing game in the league, and he liked to run/pass out of two TE sets.

So, if we line up with our offensive line, which is killer already, and then add the the best run blocking TE in the game in Graham, and also the best run blocking TE coming out of college.........Id like to think we have a very formidable set staring into the opposing defenses eyes.

If we choose to run out of that set, man....that is a mauling line.

Thats SEVEN road grading studs to contend with. Are you going to bring down a safety? Well, that leave us a hat on a hat with Knowshon in the backfield. Seven Oline and Knowshon vs their front seven and a SS in the box.

That leaves two corners on Marshall and Eddie with one safety behind.

Pick a side.

Not only that, but if we run effectively, then wont they have to put both safeties downstairs? That leaves us one on one outside. Even Orton can take advantage of that. That doesnt even take into consideration that Knowshon can go out on a route.

Not too many teams have the defenses to deal with that.

All of a sudden, Quinn, the best run blocking TE in the draft looks mighty good..................er..............not to mention the receiving skills of both he and Graham.

Graham we know can catch. And Quinn only had 12 receptions, but did anyone watch him at the combine catching the ball? Very, very soft hands. Effortless.

What will the front seven do? Get run over or cover?

A dominating run blocker TE that can catch is very valuable to McDaniels offense.


I like what he did, cause I think I understand it more. As much as I like Scheff......he CANNOT dominate as a blocker, and he has problems staying healthy.

That said, Im sure he will be used as well.


Peace Broncos fans.

I've been pimping the same ideas for a while and they are also supported by a lot of "ifs". IF we are right, we will be a .500 team and likely win the West.

[WARHORSE]

Tight end Quinn was surprised he was drafted at all

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May 17, 2009 - 6:38 PM

FRANK SCHWAB (frank.schwab@gazette.com)

Before last season, National Football Scouting formed its opinion on North Carolina tight end Richard Quinn. He was graded between a sixth-round pick and an undrafted free agent.
After Quinn caught only eight passes for 97 yards, he had his own opinion. The sixth round seemed like a reach.
"I thought maybe I'd be a free agent and be blessed to have the opportunity to come to a team and maybe try out," he said.

Draft prognosticators weren't high on Quinn. Mel Kiper Jr. had Quinn ranked as a mid-round pick. Pro Football Weekly had Quinn ranked eighth among tight ends.
So how, a few minutes after text messaging his agent on draft day to say that he was going to sleep, did Quinn wind up as a second-round pick of the Denver Broncos (http://www.gazette.com/sections/broncos/)?

His agent, Peter Schaffer, said it wasn't one team making a gigantic reach. He said he fielded calls from a few teams that wanted Quinn in the middle of the second round, but they traded their picks or passed on Quinn to fill other needs. Schaffer said Quinn would have gone in the first few picks of the third round.
Before the draft, Schaffer said he talked to Texans general manager Rick Smith, who wanted Quinn in the middle of the third round.
"I said ‘Great, he's not going to be there,'" Schaffer said. "I'm a Dr Pepper richer because that was the bet."

After last season, Quinn moved quickly to hire Schaffer, a high-powered agent who has 39 active players not counting this year's draft class. Schaffer works with trainer Derek Touchette of Velocity Sports Performance in Naples, Fla., and he sent Quinn there less than a week after North Carolina's bowl game to train for the combine.

Touchette saw a player with a good set of athletic gifts and great strength, but needed to hone his technique before the combine. He spent three days a week working on Quinn's 40-yard dash.
"His mechanics were all messed up," Touchette said.

Quinn worked on lowering his 40 time - mainly by lengthening his strides and becoming looser in his lower body - and preparing for interviews, which the gregarious tight end aced at the combine. He didn't even have the benefit of playing in a postseason all-star game. He was invited to the Senior Bowl but later was left out because while he had spent four years in college and graduated, he was technically a redshirt junior when he left.

Schaffer didn't send highlight DVDs to teams or have a sales pitch for Quinn. He said he draws upon 20 years of relationships with scouts, executives and coaches to get a read on the draft stock of all of his players. A few scouts told Schaffer early on that Quinn had a complete package of skills, he just wasn't used as a receiver often at North Carolina. Schaffer made sure others were seeing the same thing.

"What happened was, as more and more teams peeled the layers of the onion back on the game film on him, they saw that," Schaffer said.
Quinn continued to work. He trained hard and had a good combine workout, running a solid 4.88-second 40 and catching almost every pass during individual drills. Quinn also performed well in his dozen or so private workouts for teams and at North Carolina's pro day. Internet scuttle was he was rising up draft boards, but he didn't pay attention.

"I came out of college, I didn't have any stats," said Quinn, who had 12 career catches. "That was a major issue, at least that's what I thought. When people told me I was climbing up the boards a bit, I said ‘I have to see it.'"
Although Quinn grew to believe he'd be drafted, he figured he'd be selected on the second day after the first two rounds were done. But the Broncos traded a pair of third-round picks for the last pick of the second round - 64th overall - and took Quinn.

"I was thinking if we got him in the fourth round, we did good," Touchette said. "We he went 64th I almost fell out of my chair. I was so happy for him."

[NightTrainLayne]

Tight end Quinn was surprised he was drafted at all

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May 17, 2009 - 6:38 PM

FRANK SCHWAB (frank.schwab@gazette.com)

Before last season, National Football Scouting formed its opinion on North Carolina tight end Richard Quinn. He was graded between a sixth-round pick and an undrafted free agent.
After Quinn caught only eight passes for 97 yards, he had his own opinion. The sixth round seemed like a reach.
"I thought maybe I'd be a free agent and be blessed to have the opportunity to come to a team and maybe try out," he said.

Draft prognosticators weren't high on Quinn. Mel Kiper Jr. had Quinn ranked as a mid-round pick. Pro Football Weekly had Quinn ranked eighth among tight ends.
So how, a few minutes after text messaging his agent on draft day to say that he was going to sleep, did Quinn wind up as a second-round pick of the Denver Broncos (http://www.gazette.com/sections/broncos/)?

His agent, Peter Schaffer, said it wasn't one team making a gigantic reach. He said he fielded calls from a few teams that wanted Quinn in the middle of the second round, but they traded their picks or passed on Quinn to fill other needs. Schaffer said Quinn would have gone in the first few picks of the third round.
Before the draft, Schaffer said he talked to Texans general manager Rick Smith, who wanted Quinn in the middle of the third round.
"I said ‘Great, he's not going to be there,'" Schaffer said. "I'm a Dr Pepper richer because that was the bet."

After last season, Quinn moved quickly to hire Schaffer, a high-powered agent who has 39 active players not counting this year's draft class. Schaffer works with trainer Derek Touchette of Velocity Sports Performance in Naples, Fla., and he sent Quinn there less than a week after North Carolina's bowl game to train for the combine.

Touchette saw a player with a good set of athletic gifts and great strength, but needed to hone his technique before the combine. He spent three days a week working on Quinn's 40-yard dash.
"His mechanics were all messed up," Touchette said.

Quinn worked on lowering his 40 time - mainly by lengthening his strides and becoming looser in his lower body - and preparing for interviews, which the gregarious tight end aced at the combine. He didn't even have the benefit of playing in a postseason all-star game. He was invited to the Senior Bowl but later was left out because while he had spent four years in college and graduated, he was technically a redshirt junior when he left.

Schaffer didn't send highlight DVDs to teams or have a sales pitch for Quinn. He said he draws upon 20 years of relationships with scouts, executives and coaches to get a read on the draft stock of all of his players. A few scouts told Schaffer early on that Quinn had a complete package of skills, he just wasn't used as a receiver often at North Carolina. Schaffer made sure others were seeing the same thing.

"What happened was, as more and more teams peeled the layers of the onion back on the game film on him, they saw that," Schaffer said.
Quinn continued to work. He trained hard and had a good combine workout, running a solid 4.88-second 40 and catching almost every pass during individual drills. Quinn also performed well in his dozen or so private workouts for teams and at North Carolina's pro day. Internet scuttle was he was rising up draft boards, but he didn't pay attention.

"I came out of college, I didn't have any stats," said Quinn, who had 12 career catches. "That was a major issue, at least that's what I thought. When people told me I was climbing up the boards a bit, I said ‘I have to see it.'"
Although Quinn grew to believe he'd be drafted, he figured he'd be selected on the second day after the first two rounds were done. But the Broncos traded a pair of third-round picks for the last pick of the second round - 64th overall - and took Quinn.

"I was thinking if we got him in the fourth round, we did good," Touchette said. "We he went 64th I almost fell out of my chair. I was so happy for him."

Hmmm. Still can't figure out if he was REALLY going to someone else in the 3rd, or if we overpaid to get him. .. This article seems to support both views.

Thanks War. . .now we'll have something to debate and flame over for another month, it's gotten slow around here. :D

[Ravage!!!]

I never take what an agent says as truth. They always, especially if they are thought to be reaches, are trying to BOOST the value/perception of their player. Its better for contract negotiations if he keeps with his " Hey, this kid was wanted by many teams" story.

[powderaddict]

Crap, I didn't see that article posted here before I started a brand new thread.

Sorry!!

[Requiem / The Dagda]

This agent has no reason to lie about talking with Rick Smith and the Texans interest in him in the third round. His value was ranked in the third round by PFW; and obviously with Denver trading ahead of several other teams -- thought so as well.

[MOtorboat]

This agent has no reason to lie about talking with Rick Smith and the Texans interest in him in the third round. His value was ranked in the third round by PFW; and obviously with Denver trading ahead of several other teams -- thought so as well.

Leverage for contract, maybe...any word on anyone signing yet? Did I just miss it?

[Ravage!!!]

This agent has no reason to lie about talking with Rick Smith and the Texans interest in him in the third round. His value was ranked in the third round by PFW; and obviously with Denver trading ahead of several other teams -- thought so as well.


Every agent worth his salt will do everything to make his player appear to be MORE valuable. Every year, when a player is traded or released, the agent says "we have had many/several/bunches of calls from teams around the league."

None are confirmed, but it gives the media the perception that the player is sought after,thus more valuable. Same situation here.

[Ravage!!!]

Leverage for contract, maybe...any word on anyone signing yet? Did I just miss it?

I haven't heard anything on anyone.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

No, it isn't the same situation. Not at all.

[Lonestar]

Every agent worth his salt will do everything to make his player appear to be MORE valuable. Every year, when a player is traded or released, the agent says "we have had many/several/bunches of calls from teams around the league."

None are confirmed, but it gives the media the perception that the player is sought after,thus more valuable. Same situation here.

BUT who cares IF they have not been drafted.. IN fact to say that he was going to be taken in the 3rd it lessens his value as a 2nd..

to say other were going to go for him in the second before us BUT they found someone they like better has little value in negotiations eitehr....

As unless your a top ten pick it is pretty much governed by what the 64th pick got last year and making COL adjustment to it..

Not brain surgery.. yes his Agent is supposed to talk him up but to think it will make a huge difference as you implied is a little less than genuine.. Not everything is JUST money..

[Requiem / The Dagda]

It isn't the same situation because an agent has no reason to lie about when a team said they would consider taking their player. His agent wouldn't have to make that up. I don't think Rick Smith would lie about it either. PFW does their rankings on players based on their own views and what they've seen of other teams boards. They had Quinn as a 3A player; which means early third round. They released this a week before the draft. Now this comes out. It seems like it all fits together.

[Ravage!!!]

Mmm hmm.... kay

[rcsodak]

We'll see how much the sentiment changes if Seattle is drafting an actual Impact player with that pick.......And if money has anything do with that trade, then Bowlen is in the wrong business and he needs to move on.

It's controversial for a reason, because most objective people think it's incredibly stupid to trade a 1st round pick for a 2nd round talent.......

Please define your use of "most objective people", because I've seen plenty say otherwise. Especially when Smith wasn't considered "2nd round talent". :tsk:

[rcsodak]

Every agent worth his salt will do everything to make his player appear to be MORE valuable. Every year, when a player is traded or released, the agent says "we have had many/several/bunches of calls from teams around the league."

None are confirmed, but it gives the media the perception that the player is sought after,thus more valuable. Same situation here, IMHO

There ya go, buddy. :elefant:

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Mmm hmm.... kay

As I've stated in this thread and others, Quinn was rated as a 3A option by PFW which takes their own assessments coupled with the team boards they had access to. Thus, that is stating PFW and a variety of teams considered him a high third round selection. It makes sense, when taking that information -- to see the Broncos trade up with their belief that he was a hot commodity by many teams. (You can couple that in with the fact that over half of the teams get access to the same professional scouting agency that gives them their evaluations of players as well; reinforcing the prior comments regarding PFW and team boards.)

Furthermore, with information coming out regarding other teams interests, formally the Texans -- it is understandable that this would be the case as well. An agent talking about interest in a player post-draft has no bearing on contract leverage at all. As JR stated; there are salary amounts slotted for each pick and round; that wouldn't change.

Whether you choose to believe it or not, there were quite a few teams who believed Quinn was a 3A talent and the Broncos did what they thought was necessary to get the guy they wanted.

[BroncoAV06]

I think the Texans interest was legit, they selected two TE's in the 3rd Rice and a blocking TE Anthony Hill.

I scratched my head with the pick but to me its hard to argue a players value ie. round they should have been drafted in. Plenty of people evaluate talent differently, scouts spend 2/3 of the year on the roads in their areas filling out reports so obviously the Broncos saw something they liked. The only thing I hope is that his combine was not the only seller for the Broncos.

[Dirk]

The draft is a hit and miss all the time. 1st round busts, 6th round stars....undrafted stars even.

All I can say is that the Broncos had people on thier list that they wanted. They got those players. Period. Good, bad or indifferent. They did what they wanted and were happy.

Could they have missed on players that they wanted? Sure, every team does. But they spent draft picks to get the players they felt would make the team better and that's all there is to it.

Draft picks are like anything else that is a gamble. Some times they pan out, some times they don't.

Like I said, I don't scout players for a living and I am sure that these guys know a little more than I do when it comes to evaluating people and not listening to sports "gurus" on a talk show to get thier assessments.

We gotta hope they got who they got for the right reasons and that they pan out.