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UnderArmour
05-01-2012, 07:27 AM
Seeing as how it's just plain stupid to try to grade the current draft class, I figured it makes sense to go back a couple of drafts.

1 12 (12) Ryan Clady T Boise State
2 11 (42) Eddie Royal WR Virginia Tech
4 9 (108) Kory Lichtensteiger C Bowling Green
4 20 (119) Jack Williams CB Kent State
5 4 (139) Ryan Torain RB Arizona State
5 13 (148) Carlton Powell DT Virginia Tech
6 17 (183) Spencer Larsen OLB Arizona
7 13 (220) Josh Barrett S Arizona State
7 20 (227) Peyton Hillis FB Arkansas

The 2008 Broncos draft class is a solid B+.
The Elite:
Ryan Clady stepped onto the field and was immediately an All-Pro caliber player at his position.
The Steals:
Peyton Hillis had a Pro Bowl caliber season and if he'd remained at Fullback, could've been a solid receiving threat for years. As a 7th round pick, absolute steal.
The Solid Picks:
Eddie Royal had a fantastic rookie season and there was debate over who was better between him and DJax. Obviously, he tailed off after his rookie year but he remained a return threat and played lots of snaps at receiver for several seasons when he wasn't injured. Solid 2nd round pick and expected value.
Lichtensteiger has developed into a starter in a zone blocking system. For a 4th round pick, value here
Spencer Larsen provided value on special teams and started games at linebacker that season. Overachieved for a 6th rounder.
Josh Barrett for a 7th round pick has stuck around in the league as a special teams gunner. A 7th round pick sticking on the roster is the mark of solid drafting.
Ryan Torain has stuck around in this league and started several games. Maybe not for us, but certainly a solid draft pick for a fifth round pick.

The Busts:
Carlton Powell
Jack Williams

Certainly the Broncos could have done a lot worse with this draft and they acquired several quality players.

The 2009 Draft class
•Round One (12)- Knowshon Moreno RB
•Round One (18)- Robert Ayers DE
•Round Two (37)- Alphonso Smith CB
•Round Two (48)- Darcel McBath DB
•Round Two (64)- Richard Quinn TE
•Round Four (114)- David Bruton SS
•Round Four (132)- Seth Olsen OG
•Round Five (141)- Kenny McKinley WR
•Round Six (174)- Tom Brandstater QB
•Round Seven (225) Blake Schlueter C

Obviously, the grade here is an F. The only players here worth anything are Ayers and Bruton. I'm going to give Ayers the benefit of the doubt and say he has a good year next year but we passed on an All Pro in Orakpo to take him.

I don't even want to go pick by pick here because this draft class just makes me want to cry. It wouldn't have been so bad but we TRADED to draft Alphonso Smith and Richard Quinn. There was no excuse for Richard Quinn in the 2nd round because Josh's offense doesn't even use a blocking TE. You're going to trade up to draft another blocking TE in the 2nd round? Really? You trade our franchise quarterback then immediately come out and give us this horrific draft class? This draft class is the reason McDaniels got fired.

Bottom line: On-field production is the only way of grading draft classes.

SoCalImport
05-01-2012, 07:59 AM
yeah.. thanks for reminder.

hindsight being 20/20 (ish). Shannahans last few drafts were pretty damn solid and allthough I liked the aggressiveness of Mcmc's drafting style (pretty entertaining) it, like most every other thing he touched in Denver, blew up in our faces.

CoachChaz
05-01-2012, 08:08 AM
The Solid Picks:
Eddie Royal had a fantastic rookie season and there was debate over who was better between him and DJax. Obviously, he tailed off after his rookie year but he remained a return threat and played lots of snaps at receiver for several seasons when he wasn't injured. Solid 2nd round pick and expected value.

A decent return guy and #4 recevier is expected value from a 2nd round pick?

Jsteve01
05-01-2012, 08:36 AM
The Solid Picks:
Eddie Royal had a fantastic rookie season and there was debate over who was better between him and DJax. Obviously, he tailed off after his rookie year but he remained a return threat and played lots of snaps at receiver for several seasons when he wasn't injured. Solid 2nd round pick and expected value.

A decent return guy and #4 recevier is expected value from a 2nd round pick?

Let's not forget he went from being one of Cutler's favorite targets to being a 2nd or 3rd read for one guy whose progressions were essentially "Z is covered better throw it in the dirt", and another whose progression read "z is covered better run for my life"

CoachChaz
05-01-2012, 08:39 AM
Let's not forget he went from being one of Cutler's favorite targets to being a 2nd or 3rd read for one guy whose progressions were essentially "Z is covered better throw it in the dirt", and another whose progression read "z is covered better run for my life"

If he becomes a star in SD then I'll change my tune. I just never liked the pick from day one. Like the kid...not the pick.

As far as the year with Cutler...I think any receiver can catch 90 balls when 150 are thrown at him.

Chef Zambini
05-01-2012, 08:44 AM
where is the value in this exercise?
will the results change/
can we get a refund or sympathy?
how about a do-over?
all the drafts are OVER! those 'salmon" are all upstream.

UnderArmour
05-01-2012, 09:38 AM
The Solid Picks:
Eddie Royal had a fantastic rookie season and there was debate over who was better between him and DJax. Obviously, he tailed off after his rookie year but he remained a return threat and played lots of snaps at receiver for several seasons when he wasn't injured. Solid 2nd round pick and expected value.

A decent return guy and #4 recevier is expected value from a 2nd round pick?

For a 2nd round pick, yes.

Here's how I see it as far as expectations go with draft picks:

First Round expectation: Pro-Bowler through Above-Average starter. Immediate Contribution(Year 1).
Second round expectation: Above-average starter through Average starter. Immediate Contribution(year to develop is okay).
Third Round Expectation: Average Starter through Above-Average role-player. Immediate Contribution(but year to develop is okay)
----------Starter line; Below this, no expectation of becoming NFL starter---------
Fourth Round: Player provides depth and contributes to the team. Developmental.
Fifth Round: Player who makes the roster and provides depth. Developmental.
Sixth Round: Special Teams player/depth. Developmental or Practice Squad.
Seventh Round: Makes the roster. Developmental or Practice Squad.

Anything exceeding that is gravy and a good pick. I know someone broke down what the actual expectations are by NFL GMs but I couldn't find it. Eddie Royal wasn't a grade A pick, but realistically he's a middle of the road second round pick.

In the context of the 2008 2nd round, I will bold the players I feel fit the criteria of a solid or good 2nd round pick.


2 33 St. Louis Rams Donnie Avery WR Houston C-USA
2 34 Washington Redskins Devin Thomas WR Michigan State Big Ten from Oakland via Atlanta
2 35 Kansas City Chiefs Brandon Flowers CB Virginia Tech ACC
2 36 Green Bay Packers Jordy Nelson WR Kansas State Big 12 from New York Jets
2 37 Atlanta Falcons Curtis Lofton LB Oklahoma Big 12
2 38 Seattle Seahawks John Carlson TE Notre Dame Ind. from Baltimore
2 39 San Francisco 49ers Chilo Rachal G USC Pac-10
2 40 New Orleans Saints Tracy Porter CB Indiana Big Ten
2 41 Buffalo Bills James Hardy WR Indiana Big Ten
2 42 Denver Broncos Eddie Royal WR Virginia Tech ACC
2 43 Minnesota Vikings Tyrell Johnson S Arkansas State Sun Belt from Carolina via Philadelphia
2 44 Chicago Bears Matt Forté† RB Tulane C-USA
2 45 Detroit Lions Jordon Dizon LB Colorado Big 12
2 46 Cincinnati Bengals Jerome Simpson WR Coastal Carolina Big South
2 47 Philadelphia Eagles Trevor Laws DT Notre Dame Ind. from Minnesota
2 48 Washington Redskins Fred Davis TE USC Pac-10 from Houston via Atlanta
2 49 Philadelphia Eagles DeSean Jackson† WR California Pac-10
2 50 Arizona Cardinals Calais Campbell DE Miami (FL) ACC
2 51 Washington Redskins Malcolm Kelly WR Oklahoma Big 12
2 52 Jacksonville Jaguars Quentin Groves DE Auburn SEC from Tampa Bay
2 53 Pittsburgh Steelers Limas Sweed WR Texas Big 12
2 54 Tennessee Titans Jason Jones DT Eastern Michigan MAC
2 55 Baltimore Ravens Ray Rice† RB Rutgers Big East from Seattle
2 56 Green Bay Packers Brian Brohm QB Louisville Big East from Cleveland
2 57 Miami Dolphins Chad Henne QB Michigan Big Ten from San Diego
2 58 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Dexter Jackson WR Appalachian State SoCon from Jacksonville
2 59 Indianapolis Colts Mike Pollak C Arizona State Pac-10
2 60 Green Bay Packers Patrick Lee CB Auburn SEC
2 61 Dallas Cowboys Martellus Bennett TE Texas A&M Big 12
2 62 New England Patriots Terrence Wheatley CB Colorado Big 12
2 63 New York Giants Terrell Thomas CB USC Pac-10
As you can see, the second round of this draft isn't chalk full of pro-bowlers and elite starters. Realistically, you can only expect so much. While Royal wasn't necessarily a home run pick, he made enough plays to justify his draft position. He fell off the face of the planet for stretches with injuries and poor production but still remained part of our game plans. As such, I would classify him as a solid second rounder.

And where is the value of this exercise? It's the offseason and the season doesn't start until September. It's either this or months of lashing out at anyone who dares to speak of Tim Tebow's name.

Chef Zambini
05-01-2012, 09:43 AM
schlereth once said that 80 % of NFL rosters are filled with 3rd, 4th, and 5th round guys who come in with a great work ethic and a chip on their shoulders.
the GLAMOR guys end up being the biggest busts, and mostof them have very short careers.

CoachChaz
05-01-2012, 09:49 AM
I think I would be more inclined to put Royal among the list that is not bolded. And you can take it further than the small sample you listed. I think almost any team has the expectation that 2nd round player should be impact starters. That is basically saying that you are one of the best 64 players in that draft class. That's saying a lot.

Royal has done nothing noteworthy and nothing to validate his worthiness of a 2nd round pick. If all NFL teams could "redo" that draft, do you really think Royal gets drafted in the first 3 rounds?

It's almost sickening to see some of the players that were selected after him and what they could be for our team right now

claymore
05-01-2012, 10:08 AM
yeah.. thanks for reminder.

hindsight being 20/20 (ish). Shannahans last few drafts were pretty damn solid and allthough I liked the aggressiveness of Mcmc's drafting style (pretty entertaining) it, like most every other thing he touched in Denver, blew up in our faces.

This draft was boring as shit, Im hoping that it has the exact opposite effect as McD's entertaining but worthless drafts.

Northman
05-01-2012, 10:24 AM
1 12 (12) Ryan Clady T Boise State A
2 11 (42) Eddie Royal WR Virginia Tech C-
4 9 (108) Kory Lichtensteiger C Bowling Green N/A
4 20 (119) Jack Williams CB Kent State F
5 4 (139) Ryan Torain RB Arizona State D
5 13 (148) Carlton Powell DT Virginia Tech F
6 17 (183) Spencer Larsen OLB Arizona D
7 13 (220) Josh Barrett S Arizona State F
7 20 (227) Peyton Hillis FB Arkansas B


•Round One (12)- Knowshon Moreno RB C-
•Round One (18)- Robert Ayers DE C+
•Round Two (37)- Alphonso Smith CB D
•Round Two (48)- Darcel McBath DB F
•Round Two (64)- Richard Quinn TE F
•Round Four (114)- David Bruton SS F
•Round Four (132)- Seth Olsen OG N/A
•Round Five (141)- Kenny McKinley WR N/A
•Round Six (174)- Tom Brandstater QB F
•Round Seven (225) Blake Schlueter C N/A

Ravage!!!
05-01-2012, 10:26 AM
Lets also not forget that playrs are drafted for particular systems. Shanahan picked his players to fit what HE wanted to do. In Royal's case, he picked a player that fit his system and a player that fit a role within that system, and it was working fantasticallly. SHanahan knew how to use Royal. Most player's success in the NFL is majorly decided by where they go, and when they go. Just as the schedule. Its not just "who" you play, but when you play them. So to say that Royal wasn't worth a 2nd round pick because he didn't succeed with Orton and especially Tebow throwing, is pretty harsh.

TXBRONC
05-01-2012, 10:27 AM
When New England built their championship team did they do it with a lot of high profile picks? From what I remember they didn't. What I do remember is that did homework and brought in players that fit what they wanted to do. My hope is that Denver is doing something similar.

BroncoWave
05-01-2012, 10:28 AM
It's almost sickening to see some of the players that were selected after him and what they could be for our team right now

31 other teams also passed on those guys in the second round who went after Royal. It happens. Not sure what's so "sickening" about that. It's not like it was blatantly obvious at the time that Forte, D-Jax, and Rice were going to be great players or they would have been first rounders.

BroncoStud
05-01-2012, 10:37 AM
Eddie Royal is better than a C-... Not his fault that Orton sucked. Hillis, for being a 7th round draft pick, has had a solid career.

BroncoStud
05-01-2012, 10:39 AM
New England was a losing team until a late round QB stepped in for a #1 overall.

Without Tom Brady the Patriots have no rings. I late round pick made all the difference.

Ravage!!!
05-01-2012, 10:42 AM
New England was a losing team until a late round QB stepped in for a #1 overall.

Without Tom Brady the Patriots have no rings. I late round pick made all the difference.

The QB makes all the difference. Which is why I'm huge on moving forward with Manning!

Northman
05-01-2012, 10:47 AM
Eddie Royal is better than a C-... Not his fault that Orton sucked.

Nah, not his fault that Orton or Tebow werent any better at passing. Royal had some great chemistry with Jay so i understand that the circumstances surrounding it have a play into it. And Royal had some very good moments as a returner but no, he is not better than a C- at his point in time. DeSean Jackson has played with various QB's, some of whom arent all that great either but he still manages to put up his numbers. So for now, Royal isnt any better than the grade i gave him and trust me, this is coming from one of his own fans. Now, what he does in SD will be interesting as now he has a better QB there but if he cant flourish with Rivers at the helm than his grade might even go lower. But for now i think my grade is fair considering he has only had one great year in his short career.

CoachChaz
05-01-2012, 11:41 AM
31 other teams also passed on those guys in the second round who went after Royal. It happens. Not sure what's so "sickening" about that. It's not like it was blatantly obvious at the time that Forte, D-Jax, and Rice were going to be great players or they would have been first rounders.

I can remember at the time preferring a handful of those guys. Rice and Forte for sure.

SpringsBroncoFan
05-01-2012, 11:44 AM
What's depressing about the Royal pick is:

Instead of Royal take Forte (who is almost as fast at over 20# more) or Rice...

Instead of Torain take Josh Morgan, Pierre Garcon, or Steve Johnson.

Yikes!

UnderArmour
05-01-2012, 11:47 AM
I can remember at the time preferring a handful of those guys. Rice and Forte for sure.

I can agree with you on Ray Rice and D Jackson but not so much Forte. Ray Rice was a stud at Rutgers and had the measurables that his fellow Big East counterpart Steve Slaton did not. DeSean vastly outproduced Royal in college and was ticketed as a first round prospect but I suspect he fell off our board due to his antics and character issues.

CoachChaz
05-01-2012, 11:50 AM
I can agree with you on Ray Rice and D Jackson but not so much Forte. Ray Rice was a stud at Rutgers and had the measurables that his fellow Big East counterpart Steve Slaton did not. DeSean vastly outproduced Royal in college and was ticketed as a first round prospect but I suspect he fell off our board due to his antics and character issues.

Yeah...those pesky high character guys. Kinda getting tired of that philosophy

claymore
05-01-2012, 11:50 AM
Royal was a great fit for the offense he was drafted into. He had one of the most productive rookie WR's seasons ever. I think his drop in production correlates directly to the new scheme, players and coaching staff that followed.

dogfish
05-01-2012, 11:54 AM
where is the value in this exercise?
will the results change/
can we get a refund or sympathy?
how about a do-over?
all the drafts are OVER! those 'salmon" are all upstream.

i love this stuff. . . :lol:

if you grade the current draft class, people will scream and cry that you can't grade a class for three years (unless you give it an "A"-- that's apparently okay). . . and if you do grade it after three years, people find other reasons to cry about it. . .


basically, somebody is gonna bitch about it no matter what you post. . .


:welcome:

DenBronx
05-01-2012, 12:08 PM
The 2008 draft was actually solid and would have been better if the Cutler core had stayed together. So with the way things are today I think it's a B-. We still have a solid LT and Royal/Hillis were good picks at the time.

The 2009 draft was a failure. I say failure because we SHOULD have drafted Orakpo, Cushing or Matthews in the first. We needed help at LB at the time and passed on several very solid LBs. I didnt like that. Knowshon, looked like the best back in the draft and I was happy at the time but looking back it wasnt a good pick. I didnt understand the Ayers pick because I wanted Matthews but I doubt we would have been in position to take Von Miller if we had taken Matthews anyway. But after round 1, when Josh McDaniels traded away a 2010 1st to get Alphonso Smith I completely lost it....I was throwing remote controls and hitting things that day. I HATED the rest of the draft except for Bruton from Notre Dame. Bruton is a solid special teams guy and fills in at S when someone gets injured. Draft grade - D

CoachChaz
05-01-2012, 12:13 PM
Just out of curiosity...if Royal is so good for a Shanahan offense...then why wasnt he sought after by the Skins when they decided they were going to sign FA WR's and he was an FA himself? Josh Morgan was considered a better option?

Northman
05-01-2012, 12:22 PM
Just out of curiosity...if Royal is so good for a Shanahan offense...then why wasnt he sought after by the Skins when they decided they were going to sign FA WR's and he was an FA himself? Josh Morgan was considered a better option?

Actually, i think the Skins did inquire about him but Royal declined to go there.

DenBronx
05-01-2012, 12:33 PM
Just out of curiosity...if Royal is so good for a Shanahan offense...then why wasnt he sought after by the Skins when they decided they were going to sign FA WR's and he was an FA himself? Josh Morgan was considered a better option?

I think it had more to do with Cutler than Shanny or both together. But, I too am suprised that the Bears or Skins didnt reach out to him. Keep in mind that Royal was asking for too much....like 6 mill a year. Thats also why he isnt a Bronco playing with Peyton Manning. Money was a factor and the Chargers were dumb enough to bite.

Ravage!!!
05-01-2012, 01:33 PM
Just out of curiosity...if Royal is so good for a Shanahan offense...then why wasnt he sought after by the Skins when they decided they were going to sign FA WR's and he was an FA himself? Josh Morgan was considered a better option?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/don_banks/03/13/washington.redskins.pierre.garcon/index.html


With a franchise quarterback secured, the Redskins on Tuesday went about the very logical business of upgrading their receiving corps, giving RG3 more than just Santana Moss and Jabar Gaffney to grow with. In typical lightning-quick Redskins fashion, they went out and signed two young pass-catching weapons in ex-Colt Pierre Garcon and ex-49er Josh Morgan, and also targeting ex-Bronco Eddie Royal, whom The Washington Post erroneously reported the Redskins having agreed to terms with. Garcon and Morgan aren't 26 yet, they're entering just their second NFL contracts having been drafted in 2008, and both have been very productive at some point during the course of their first four seasons in the league.

Simple Jaded
05-02-2012, 09:57 PM
The 2009 Broncos draft might be the worst draft class of all time, it reminds me of Shanantan's 1999 draft when the Broncos had something like 6 picks in the Top100 picks and 13-14 picks overall and walked away with Al Wilson. Just Al Wilson! Anybody remember Travis McGriff? Hopefully Ayers develops into an Al Wilson kind of player but I wouldn't bet on it.

The '09 class gets a big fat F'n F, there isn't a fan of this team that could possibly do any worse. 2010 wasn't much better. All those premium draft assets wasted on The Patriot Way, they should've just traded all those draft picks for Tom Brady.......

UnderArmour
05-03-2012, 07:07 AM
The 2009 Broncos draft might be the worst draft class of all time, it reminds me of Shanantan's 1999 draft when the Broncos had something like 6 picks in the Top100 picks and 13-14 picks overall and walked away with Al Wilson. Just Al Wilson! Anybody remember Travis McGriff? Hopefully Ayers develops into an Al Wilson kind of player but I wouldn't bet on it.

The '09 class gets a big fat F'n F, there isn't a fan of this team that could possibly do any worse. 2010 wasn't much better. All those premium draft assets wasted on The Patriot Way, they should've just traded all those draft picks for Tom Brady.......

I don't see how anyone can grade the 2010 draft class as anything less than a B+. We got -FIVE- starters from that draft and Cox/Squid are both very talented corners. Granted, Cox's lawyer's miracle performance does not vindicate Josh McDaniels for taking a chance on a red flag player.

I just don't understand why people think the 2010 draft class was bad. Someone is going to have to explain this to me. I really just don't get it. I keep seeing it come up again and again but no matter how much I try, I just don't see what people can possibly have against a draft class where we added five starters. I'm not talking Raheem Moore starters either where they are constantly out of place and blowing coverage, I'm talking at least serviceable starters where they belong on a football field.


2010 draft:

WR Demaryius Thomas (1st Round, 22nd overall)
Result: starter

QB Tim Tebow (1st Round, 25th overall)
Result: starter

OL Zane Beadles – (2nd Round, 45th overall)
Result: starter

C J.D. Walton – (3rd Round, 80th overall)
Result: starter

WR Eric Decker – (3rd Round, 87th overall) (from Philadelphia)
Result: starter

CB Perrish Cox – (5th Round, 137th overall) (from Philadelphia via Cleveland)
Result: idiot

C Eric Olsen – (6th Round, 183rd overall)
Result: nothin

CB Syd’quan Thompson - (7th, 225th overall)
Result: backup and kick returner

DE/OLB Jammie Kirlew – (7th, 232rd overall)
Result: nothin

Now maybe the reason we got FIVE starters AND a useful backup out of this draft was that our talent was precipitously low. I know I don't think Beadles should be starting, and Tebow is a very-specific-circumstance starter at this point. But still, it was a very productive draft.

If we get five starters out of this draft I'll go ape-shit with orgasmic delight. So John's "level-headed approach" may feel nice, and I prefer it to that ridiculousness of Josh's first draft, but we're getting good mileage out of McDaniels's second. I'm hoping John's 2012 draft can keep pace with the "good backups / several starters" drafts of the last couple of years.

And I hope some of last year's guys show better this year. It was ugly for a few of em in 2011.

~G

Can you find a Broncos draft class in the last 10 years other than our 2006 draft class that exceeds this draft class? I can't.

Simple Jaded
05-03-2012, 11:37 PM
First of all, all the draft picks wasted on 5th round prospect in Tebow means the grade starts at an F. Sure Beadles and Walton are starters but you say that like it's a good thing. Both Decker and Thomas were drafted with severe foot injuries, I think Decker was good value where he was drafted but Thomas was not. He may have 1st round athletic ability but the dude still hasn't run a 40 for pro scouts, he should have been taken early 2nd and if he's not there you don't need him.

Forget about the fact that Denver started with a premium pick and ended up with Tebow and the fact that Seattle was using their 14th overall to draft the S the Broncos could really ******* use right now. Those two facts alone are enough reason to give an F on their own, but Decker and Thomas are hardly reason enough to raise it higher than a D.......

shank
05-04-2012, 12:27 AM
jaded, you seem to be really... um... shucks, i just can't seem to think of a word that would correctly describe your outlook on the broncos, jaded.