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Dirk
05-04-2009, 12:20 PM
I didn't see this posted. It might have been in another thread but didn't see it. If it was...my bad.




ENGLEWOOD, Colo. – It could have been perceived as a negative moment, but Josh McDaniels saw more promise than virus. The Denver Broncos coach watched wideout Eddie Royal blister a path between a safety and cornerback 50 yards downfield, stretching his arms out in the end zone. But the arching spiral from quarterback Kyle Orton was inches too far, dropping to the earth with the thud of a manhole cover.

Royal cursed and punched the football as it bounced back into the air, while teammates let out a chorus of groans. But standing back at the line of scrimmage, McDaniels saw something more.

“Kyle’s arm,” the coach would later pointedly say, “was strong enough to overthrow Eddie Royal today.”

The statement was a small peek into a marriage – two men joined at the hip, where the natural inclination is to believe that the failure of one could end up dooming the other. Forget the war chest of draft picks the Broncos gained for Jay Cutler. And ignore that Orton is in the final year of his contract. Those are merely smaller points in the inescapable reality of comparison in the NFL – a reality this franchise can no more escape than the surrounding mountaintops can duck beneath the clouds. Seeking Orton in a deal for Cutler will tie the two players together forever, and more importantly, tie McDaniels to a pair of starting quarterbacks who will be painstakingly measured against each other next season.

This scenario is why position-for-position trades are so rare. The two players become inevitably tied together, and success and failure of a deal becomes much more measurable. It’s begging for long-term comparison, which is why fans in New York and San Diego will forever debate Eli Manning and Philip Rivers.

And yet, additional draft picks or not, McDaniels has unequivocally tied himself to Orton in 2009 and perhaps beyond. He did so first by taking him over packages that would have produced either the Washington Redskins’ Jason Campbell or the Tampa Bay Buccaneers’ Luke McCown, and then again on draft day, when he eschewed moving boldly in pursuit of USC’s Mark Sanchez, or modestly for Kansas State’s Josh Freeman. Once Cutler was put on the trading block, the month of April became a period of singular choice rather than consequence. Kyle Orton? For better or worse, he’s McDaniels’ gamble.

So when told of critics inside the Bears franchise who lacked faith in Orton’s arm strength, McDaniels simply protested and offered Sunday’s snapshot, when his fastest wideout couldn’t catch up to Orton’s deep ball.

“The distance you throw the ball down the field, to me at times it can be very overrated,” he said. “I’m worried about accuracy. I’m concerned with them reading the plays the right way, getting it to the people that need to have it on time. For the amount of times you throw the ball 60 yards in a season, I think that’s significantly overrated, unless you’re a team that’s going to throw 10 of those passes a game, which we’re not.”

McDaniels doesn’t say this in a cocky or naďve fashion – two labels that were tattooed on his forehead by some media during the Cutler fallout. Instead, he says it with a few core beliefs when it comes to Orton.

First, in four years in the league, Orton has been given the chance for realistic progress only twice: first as a rookie in 2005, and then again last season as Chicago’s primary starter. And both times, areas of his game became appreciably better. Second, Orton is still young (26), and McDaniels sees room for every area of his game to grow – be it mechanics, decision-making, defensive recognition and so on.

“We think we can make him better,” McDaniels says. “We think we can make him a really competitive, solid quarterback in our system. I’m never going to think otherwise. Everything can get better. He can improve in every area. If [a quarterback] ever stops believing he can get better at something, then he’s lost an edge.”

He says this with supreme confidence. He never lacks for that. It’s a byproduct of being the son of legendary Ohio high school coach Thom McDaniels, and then shimmying up the coaching ladder during his 20s under the tutelage of Nick Saban and Bill Belichick.

He has stolen volumes of knowledge from all of them. Preparation and detail from his father, like knowing that when a player watches film, he should be just as concerned with everything going on in the picture as he is with the activity surrounding himself. Relentless work ethic from Saban, who expected almost scientific precision in practice and games. And the ability to mold and tie together all aspects of coaching, motivation and leadership from Belichick.

McDaniels will likely need it all this season, considering the autopsy the Broncos are about to undergo. Beyond Orton, the team will have a new starting running back in rookie Knowshon Moreno and wholesale changes on defense, which is being revamped both in the talent base and with a new 3-4 scheme. Indeed, the new regime has wasted little time remaking the roster. With 10 draft picks and 14 new veterans signed in free agency, it’s likely that no team in the NFL will have more new faces on the opening day 53-man roster.

All of which fuels a specific expectation: that McDaniels can succeed where other Patriots assistants, such as Romeo Crennel and Eric Mangini, have failed, and transplant the New England model into another NFL team.

“I don’t think that’s unrealistic that Josh can bring it here,” says Broncos running back LaMont Jordan, who spent 2008 with the Patriots. “… No team is more feared or respected than the Patriots. That comes from winning, but I think first and foremost it comes from players buying into the system and then us going out there and doing our jobs. The bottom line, this system is proven. It’s up to the players to go and make it happen. You look at New England the last couple years, they had a tremendous amount of injuries and never lost a step. That’s the mentality of that organization, and I think that’s what Josh is bringing here.”



McDaniels spent eight years with Belichick, left, and the Pats.
(Stephen Savoia/AP Photo)


Certainly, there are elements that are clear to see. He’s extremely detail oriented, to the point where he involves himself in specific teaching. He spent Sunday showing wideouts how and where he expected them to come out of their breaks, working with running backs on their positioning coming out of the backfield, and kept a constant dialogue with his quarterbacks. Meanwhile, he delegated authority, often leaving defensive coordinator Mike Nolan – and his wealth of coaching experience – to drill and manage without someone looking over his shoulder.

“He kind of reminds me of coach [Tony] Dungy that way,” said Broncos defensive end Darrell Reid, who played with the Indianapolis Colts last season. “He checks in, but he lets his coaches do their job.”

And while that transition to the 3-4 and Nolan’s ability to expedite it will be pivotal, there are few illusions about where the microscope will be pointed. It will be hard for the defense to be any worse than it was last season, a point punctuated by the fact that six defensive starters from 2008 – Dre Bly, Dewayne Robertson, Nate Webster, Marquand Manuel, Jamie Winborn and John Engelberger – are still dangling in free agency. But the offense? It returns at full strength and has added a first-round running back. The only thing that appears to be drastically different is the quarterback.

In essence, that will be where ’09 begins and ends. The outside world will be waiting and watching to see whether McDaniels can spin more gold at a position where he helped bring along Tom Brady and Matt Cassel – and whether Orton can assuage the dealing of a 26-year old Pro Bowler who passed for more than 4,500 yards last season. But it’s worth noting that Orton is taking control of something he never had in Chicago – a loaded unit with a two playmaking wideouts, a franchise running back, a marquee tight end and a young and talented offensive line. Whether he can fill Cutler’s shoes, it won’t be for a lack of Cutler’s former arsenal.

“I personally don’t think I’m tied to Jay,” Orton says. “I’m my own player. I feel like I’ve done a lot of great things in the first four years of my career. And now this is a new beginning for me. I look at the situation, and I think I’m going to do even better things for the next five or six years.”

Whether Orton subscribes to it, that measuring stick has been set in place. And the success or failure of both he and McDaniels will undoubtedly be tested against it.

Dirk
05-04-2009, 12:20 PM
Oops...forgot the link...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-mcdanielsorton050409&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

SR
05-04-2009, 01:12 PM
This is kind of irrelevant to the article, but it's what I was thinking about while I was reading it; the whole "filling Elway's shoes" mantra for Denver QBs has kind of gone away since Cutler left. I like that.

broncohead
05-04-2009, 01:17 PM
This is kind of irrelevant to the article, but it's what I was thinking about while I was reading it; the whole "filling Elway's shoes" mantra for Denver QBs has kind of gone away since Cutler left. I like that.

Nobody expects Orton to be that good

Lonestar
05-04-2009, 01:30 PM
Nobody expects Orton to be that good

and lots of nobdies may be surprised to find out we do not need a rocket armed QB to win lots of games..

Ravage!!!
05-04-2009, 01:31 PM
and lots of nobdies may be surprised to find out we do not need a rocket armed QB to win lots of games..

Interestingly put.... I guess those 'nobodies' just don't think that comparing anyone to Elway has to do PURELY on the arm.....

silkamilkamonico
05-04-2009, 01:44 PM
Interestingly put.... I guess those 'nobodies' just don't think that comparing anyone to Elway has to do PURELY on the arm.....

Which is why anyone comparing Cutler to Elway should have been laughed at.

rationalfan
05-04-2009, 02:10 PM
This quote by Lamont Jordan explains why the likes of Jordan and Lonnie Paxton were brought in - to help convince the other players this scheme will make them winners:

“I don’t think that’s unrealistic that Josh can bring it here,” says Broncos running back LaMont Jordan, who spent 2008 with the Patriots. “… No team is more feared or respected than the Patriots. That comes from winning, but I think first and foremost it comes from players buying into the system and then us going out there and doing our jobs. The bottom line, this system is proven. It’s up to the players to go and make it happen. You look at New England the last couple years, they had a tremendous amount of injuries and never lost a step. That’s the mentality of that organization, and I think that’s what Josh is bringing here.”

SR
05-04-2009, 02:57 PM
Nobody expects Orton to be that good

Fine with me. I hope he surprises people. He had a winning record in Chicago with a defense first team and not that great of a supporting cast around him. I'm just glad to hear the comparisons between Quarterback X and John Elway subside. It got old after 10 years.

xzn
05-04-2009, 03:17 PM
As much downgrade may exist at the QB position I think there will be a commensurate, or even greater, upgrade at the RB position. The rest of the offense is intact.

Overall I expect the offense to be very productive and hopefully more effective in scoring.

I wish I had the same confidence about the defense, but am willing to believe that the likes of Dawkins, Davis, Goodman, Hill, Fields, Smith, Ayers and Reid are upgrades over the six scrubs the article listed who have not even been re-signed by the other 31 teams.

I also have to think the defense will be appreciably better just because of Mike Nolan instead of Slowick.

And then there's the hope for the growth and maturation of guys like Dumervil, Woodyard, Larsen, Barrett, Powell, Thomas and even some hope for Crowder and Moss in a new system with better coaching.

I think we'll be better than a lot of people think next year, despite the brutal schedule. As long as Orton can be at least average I think we'll be in the playoff hunt and not a total joke.

broncohead
05-04-2009, 03:34 PM
and lots of nobdies may be surprised to find out we do not need a rocket armed QB to win lots of games..

Well now that we have a RB that can keep the chains moving and a defensive coach who actually knows defense I expect Denver to win. The defense and running game will get us wins in the future not orton.

BroncoTech
05-04-2009, 05:26 PM
Oh, great, he can over throw the receiver. Super.
Barry Sanders was one hell of a running back, not too many wins though. If you only run the ball then the defense only plays run and you don't win many games. You need the threat down field to open up the running game and vice-a-versa. One dimension is no good and nothing sparks fear in a defense like a strong arm quarterback.

Name the last noodle arm quarterback to win the big one?

Think Griese = noodle arm

honz
05-04-2009, 06:12 PM
Well now that we have a RB that can keep the chains moving and a defensive coach who actually knows defense I expect Denver to win. The defense and running game will get us wins in the future not orton.
So 5 YPC wasn't good enough for poor little Jay Cutler, but now our running game is going to carry us to victories?

broncohead
05-04-2009, 06:14 PM
So 5 YPC wasn't good enough for poor little Jay Cutler, but now our running game is going to carry us to victories?

It was very inconsistant. How many RBs did we go through. And if our running game was so good why didn't we run more?

honz
05-04-2009, 06:16 PM
Oh, great, he can over throw the receiver. Super.
Barry Sanders was one hell of a running back, not too many wins though. If you only run the ball then the defense only plays run and you don't win many games. You need the threat down field to open up the running game and vice-a-versa. One dimension is no good and nothing sparks fear in a defense like a strong arm quarterback.

Name the last noodle arm quarterback to win the big one?

Think Griese = noodle arm

For the last time, Orton is not a "noodle armed" QB. He has a very good arm, but does struggle a bit throwing the deep ball accurately...but then again, so did Jay. Orton doesn't have Jay's arm and physical tools, but if you watch him play you can clearly see that he is no slouch as far as arm strength goes.

honz
05-04-2009, 06:18 PM
It was very inconsistant. How many RBs did we go through. And if our running game was so good why didn't we run more?

How inconsistent can it be when you are picking up 5 yards every time you hand it off? It was our play calling that was inconsistent...you should run the ball more when you are picking up yards like that on the ground.

topscribe
05-04-2009, 06:29 PM
and lots of nobdies may be surprised to find out we do not need a rocket armed QB to win lots of games..

New England doesn't appear to need one . . .

-----

topscribe
05-04-2009, 06:33 PM
Oh, great, he can over throw the receiver. Super.
Barry Sanders was one hell of a running back, not too many wins though. If you only run the ball then the defense only plays run and you don't win many games. You need the threat down field to open up the running game and vice-a-versa. One dimension is no good and nothing sparks fear in a defense like a strong arm quarterback.

Name the last noodle arm quarterback to win the big one?

Think Griese = noodle arm

What's this about noodle arms? I'm having trouble correlating here . . .

-----

Lonestar
05-04-2009, 06:42 PM
This quote by Lamont Jordan explains why the likes of Jordan and Lonnie Paxton were brought in - to help convince the other players this scheme will make them winners:

“I don’t think that’s unrealistic that Josh can bring it here,” says Broncos running back LaMont Jordan, who spent 2008 with the Patriots. “… No team is more feared or respected than the Patriots. That comes from winning, but I think first and foremost it comes from players buying into the system and then us going out there and doing our jobs. The bottom line, this system is proven. It’s up to the players to go and make it happen. You look at New England the last couple years, they had a tremendous amount of injuries and never lost a step. That’s the mentality of that organization, and I think that’s what Josh is bringing here.”

Might have been a huge reason he would have loved to have Cassell here also..

They know what he is trying to do the other players are not seeing it yet..

If we can get on the NE winning track/side, then they will be a great place to cheer for our team..

I know that many hate the pats but if they opened their eyes they would see they are a well oiled machine..

Lonestar
05-04-2009, 06:45 PM
New England doesn't appear to need one . . .

-----


so many folks are so in love with jay they can't see the forest for the trees..

Not all HOF QB's are born as a top 15 pick.. not all rocket armed QB make it in the NFL.. that some QB are made by good coaching and not allergic to kryptonite..

broncohead
05-04-2009, 06:55 PM
How inconsistent can it be when you are picking up 5 yards every time you hand it off? It was our play calling that was inconsistent...you should run the ball more when you are picking up yards like that on the ground.

Then why didn't we run the ball more? How much we threw the ball was rediculous

Ravage!!!
05-04-2009, 07:11 PM
IIRC, the last person to make that comparison was Cutler himself.

Actually..... he never made the comparison..... the media did when asking the question.

Ravage!!!
05-04-2009, 07:12 PM
so many folks are so in love with jay they can't see the forest for the trees..

Not all HOF QB's are born as a top 15 pick.. not all rocket armed QB make it in the NFL.. that some QB are made by good coaching and not allergic to kryptonite..

True enough. However.... how many TOP QBs in the NFL right now, were not top 3 QBs in their drafting class?

topscribe
05-04-2009, 07:38 PM
True enough. However.... how many TOP QBs in the NFL right now, were not top 3 QBs in their drafting class?

Of course, there's Brady (6th round), whom many consider the best QB in football today.
I believe Kurt Warner, a UDFA in 1994, qualifies.
Jake Delhomme a UDFA in 1997, is pretty well thought of.
Drew Brees was the first selection in round 2 . . . but who could forget the #1 over all that year: Michael Vick?
Same with Brett Favre, a certain HOFer, chosen in the 2nd round in 1991, after such household names as Dan McGwire and Todd Marinovich?
Of course, Cutler himself was #3, after Vince Young (who?) and Matt Leinart (who?).

Fact is, where a QB was selected is absolutely no guarantee as to their degree of success in the NFL.

Just ask Bart Starr (17th round), Johnny Unitas (9th round), and . . . yes, Matt Cassell (7th round).

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Nomad
05-04-2009, 07:57 PM
Which is why anyone comparing Cutler to Elway should have been laughed at.

True! I'm taking a trip back to memory lane and watching the '94 game between the Chiefs and :defense:BRONCOS. I was 21 and the game seemed a bit more fun back then. I didn't have or see the same excitement with Cutler because he doesn't play with the passion like John did. It's great to see Mile High again and the throwbacks and a young Marty S:lol:.

honz
05-04-2009, 08:07 PM
Then why didn't we run the ball more? How much we threw the ball was rediculous

I agree. I'd love to hear Jeremy Bates' or Shanny's explanation. Our running game wasn't as bad as many people make it sound, though. We may have had scrubs running the ball for us, but that's really no different than any other year since TD left...minus Portis.

WARHORSE
05-04-2009, 09:24 PM
and lots of nobdies may be surprised to find out we do not need a rocket armed QB to win lots of games..


And lots of people will say, better to have one..........than not have one.


But correct, winning is of the entire organization, not just the QB.


But either way, he will be tied to the results no matter which scale is tipped.........the wins or the losses.

Hawgdriver
05-04-2009, 09:56 PM
QBs w/ > 20 TD passes, career, drafted after 1980 (doesn't include last year's stats):

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/hawgdriver/rounddrafted.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/hawgdriver/picknum.jpg

Pro-bowl QBs drafted 1980 or later (no UDFA):

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p204/hawgdriver/Picture6.png

Hawgdriver
05-04-2009, 10:03 PM
That doesn't include players taken in the supplemental draft:

Steve Young, #1 pick
Bernie Kosar, #1 pick
Steve Walsh, #1 pick

Ravage!!!
05-04-2009, 11:30 PM
Of course, there's Brady (6th round), whom many consider the best QB in football today.
I believe Kurt Warner, a UDFA in 1994, qualifies.
Jake Delhomme a UDFA in 1997, is pretty well thought of.
Drew Brees was the first selection in round 2 . . . but who could forget the #1 over all that year: Michael Vick?
Same with Brett Favre, a certain HOFer, chosen in the 2nd round in 1991, after such household names as Dan McGwire and Todd Marinovich?
Of course, Cutler himself was #3, after Vince Young (who?) and Matt Leinart (who?).

Fact is, where a QB was selected is absolutely no guarantee as to their degree of success in the NFL.

Just ask Bart Starr (17th round), Johnny Unitas (9th round), and . . . yes, Matt Cassell (7th round).

-----
(for starters, its absolutely embarrassing that you put Matt Cassel in the same sentence with Unitas and Starr when talking about GREAT late round picks. Truly embarrassing)

You just made my point though... I asked HOW MANY of the top QBs that are playing RIGHT NOW were not the top 3 of their class. Brady, Warner and Delhomme were your answers. Throw Romo in there as well. Ok.. so a 6th, and three undrafted. So if we don't take one of the top three, then we take a chance with a low 6th round or undrafted?

There are never guarantees to anything... but you ALWAYS should try to INCREASE your odds with better choices. You don't 'count' on undrafted or 6th round choices simply because 'it happened before.' If that were the case, I could show where we shouldn't have ANY draft choices above the 6th round because there has been someone good to GREAT taken there or later.

Peyton, Eli, Rivers, Rothlesburther, Brees, Palmer, Cutler, Ryan, Collins, Flacco, Pennington, McNabb, Rodgers

I'll take the odds.

honz
05-04-2009, 11:42 PM
The thing is though, Orton isn't a rookie that we just drafted. He is a known commodity that has shown that he can play at the NFL level.

topscribe
05-04-2009, 11:46 PM
(for starters, its absolutely embarrassing that you put Matt Cassel in the same sentence with Unitas and Starr when talking about GREAT late round picks. Truly embarrassing)

You just made my point though... I asked HOW MANY of the top QBs that are playing RIGHT NOW were not the top 3 of their class. Brady, Warner and Delhomme were your answers. Throw Romo in there as well. Ok.. so a 6th, and three undrafted. So if we don't take one of the top three, then we take a chance with a low 6th round or undrafted?

There are never guarantees to anything... but you ALWAYS should try to INCREASE your odds with better choices. You don't 'count' on undrafted or 6th round choices simply because 'it happened before.' If that were the case, I could show where we shouldn't have ANY draft choices above the 6th round because there has been someone good to GREAT taken there or later.

Peyton, Eli, Rivers, Rothlesburther, Brees, Palmer, Cutler, Ryan, Collins, Flacco, Pennington, McNabb, Rodgers

I'll take the odds.

Well, of course the odds are better with the high picks. But you wanted to
know how many, so I tried to placate you. But you still should not rule out
how successful a quarterback is going to be by where he was drafted.

BTW, did I use the word "great" in reference to Cassell, or even imply he was
the equal of Starr and Unitas? You said "successful," and so far Cassell has
been successful. But this "don't mention ______ in the same breath as _____"
is so silly, as if they are gods. If I mention that so-and-so quarterback and I
are around 6'5", am I equating myself with him as quarterbacks, even though
I've never played it? It's silly. I only mentioned what rounds in which each
respective quarterback was drafted. Having watched each of them personally,
I know as well as anybody how "great" they were.

-----

Hawgdriver
05-04-2009, 11:52 PM
# of QBs w/ more than 100 TD passes selected before #100 in draft since 1980: 35 (70%)
selected after #100 (4th round+): 15 (30%)

So it's far more likely that your 'keeper' QBs come in rounds 1-3, a decent percentage make it from 4-UDFA.

honz
05-05-2009, 12:07 AM
# of QBs w/ more than 100 TD passes selected before #100 in draft since 1980: 35 (70%)
selected after #100 (4th round+): 15 (30%)

So it's far more likely that your 'keeper' QBs come in rounds 1-3, a decent percentage make it from 4-UDFA.

I appreciate your research, but isn't that probably true for every position. For every Jason Peters there is a Clady, Long, and Ogden. For every TD there is an Adrian Peterson, Frank Gore, and Moreno;). For every Brandon Marshall there is a Larry Fitz, Calvin Johnson, and Andre Johnson.

QB's probably stick out more because they play such a high profile position and there are so few quality prospects that come out every year compared to other positions, but there are successful high picks and "gems" at every position.

Broncos Mtnman
05-05-2009, 02:27 AM
Mickey Mouse should become a politician, considering his ability to spin bad news into something positive.

"Hey Bronco fans, your new QB can throw the ball really far. He can't hit the receiver, but he can throw the ball really far. That will show all you people who think I made a mistake trading Cutler."

What I see here is another Jake Plummer. A QB who is inaccurate when throwing the long ball.

That's just great!!

:coffee:

Lonestar
05-05-2009, 03:08 AM
Mickey Mouse should become a politician, considering his ability to spin bad news into something positive.

"Hey Bronco fans, your new QB can throw the ball really far. He can't hit the receiver, but he can throw the ball really far. That will show all you people who think I made a mistake trading Cutler."

What I see here is another Jake Plummer. A QB who is inaccurate when throwing the long ball.

That's just great!!

:coffee:

I was wondering when someone would play the Jake comparison.

Considering this pass he was talking about was probably the only long bomb they attempted in their first OTA and neither of them have any timing with each other this is just more hate mongering.

If next we have as many long passes missed as we have over the past year perhaps we have something to worry about.

Now we have one bomb that he overthrew. Not sure how many jay had on his first day.

Time to move on or move to dabears.com and follow wonderboy.

Dirk
05-05-2009, 05:36 AM
Then why didn't we run the ball more? How much we threw the ball was rediculous

The easy answer to your question here was the terrible defense.

It was a standing issue that we had to out score or try to catch up all the time.

The defense couldn't stop the other teams. Period.

When you are playing to out score the other team or catch up, you throw more than you run the ball. You can't manage the clock when you don't have a defense that can get the ball back into your offenses hands. :coffee:

gobroncsnv
05-05-2009, 07:13 AM
Maybe it's just because I was skimming this, but I was kind of looking for the listing of QB's taken in top rounds, didn't see the name Brady come up...

Another observation, I can only remember Jay hitting Javon Walker on a DEEP ball IN STRIDE one time, that being his rookie year. Other than that, I remember Royal, Marshall, and most others having to wait for a Jay bomb to come down to them. I always thought Jay's best work was working the "windows" in a defense because he could hit the 20 yarders with authority, but we didn't see alot of success on much more than that. OK, stat jockeys, refresh my memory...

Hawgdriver
05-05-2009, 09:24 AM
I appreciate your research, but isn't that probably true for every position. For every Jason Peters there is a Clady, Long, and Ogden. For every TD there is an Adrian Peterson, Frank Gore, and Moreno;). For every Brandon Marshall there is a Larry Fitz, Calvin Johnson, and Andre Johnson.

QB's probably stick out more because they play such a high profile position and there are so few quality prospects that come out every year compared to other positions, but there are successful high picks and "gems" at every position.

Gore was taken at #65, so not the best example, but your point stands. For RBs, only 3 of the 30+ RBs to amass 5000+ yards since 1980 were taken in rounds 4+. 16 of 30 came out of the first round. The success of early round RBs is more pronounced than QBs. There are probably slight variations of this theme with all positions, with the exception of DT.

The bottom line is that of course your top picks are more successful, but there is a significant proportion of successful players taken in later rounds at the QB position. If 30% of your successful QBs come from rounds 4 and up, you can make the statement that it's reasonable to find good quarterbacks in later rounds. The very best of them dominate the top 50 picks. That's where you typically find your all-timers. But you don't need a roster full of all-timers to win championships, and you don't need an all-timer QB to win championships.

AFC/NFC champion QBs, 2000-2009

First round:
Peyton Manning, #1
Eli Manning, #1
Donovan McNabb, #2
Kerry Collins, #5
Trent Dilfer, #6
Big Ben, #11
Rex Grossman, #22

Others:
Rich Gannon, #98
Marc Bulger, #168
Matt Hasselbeck, #187
Tom Brady, #199
Brad Johnson, #227
Kurt Warner, UDFA
Jake Delhomme, UDFA

You can win some games with late round QBs. Will Kyle Orton be the guy to do this for the Broncos? Who knows. I'm glad McDaniels is here to help, he's shown an aptitude for getting maximum results from a QB that can work in his system--if he thinks he can do it with Orton, then we'll see. He's out of better options.

broncohead
05-05-2009, 09:26 AM
The easy answer to your question here was the terrible defense.

It was a standing issue that we had to out score or try to catch up all the time.

The defense couldn't stop the other teams. Period.

When you are playing to out score the other team or catch up, you throw more than you run the ball. You can't manage the clock when you don't have a defense that can get the ball back into your offenses hands. :coffee:

Exactly. I don't hold much stock into the "Jay threw over 4,000 yards" and "he had the 2nd most INTs in the league" because of his inflated passing attempts compared to everyone else. He did good not great but when you see the potential coming out you want to hold onto it expecially with a young QB.

silkamilkamonico
05-05-2009, 11:11 AM
Exactly. I don't hold much stock into the "Jay threw over 4,000 yards" and "he had the 2nd most INTs in the league" because of his inflated passing attempts compared to everyone else. He did good not great but when you see the potential coming out you want to hold onto it expecially with a young QB.

I agree. I don't think twice about the number of interceptions Cutler threw because of his passing attempts, but then at the same time I have to take a step back and say his TD's on the season isn't really that impressive either, considering.

Lonestar
05-05-2009, 11:23 AM
Maybe it's just because I was skimming this, but I was kind of looking for the listing of QB's taken in top rounds, didn't see the name Brady come up...

Another observation, I can only remember Jay hitting Javon Walker on a DEEP ball IN STRIDE one time, that being his rookie year. Other than that, I remember Royal, Marshall, and most others having to wait for a Jay bomb to come down to them. I always thought Jay's best work was working the "windows" in a defense because he could hit the 20 yarders with authority, but we didn't see alot of success on much more than that. OK, stat jockeys, refresh my memory...

Outstanding post most diehard jay fans forget those long ball moments , or remeber them only as completetions.

They forget that only the battle of the WR figthing for the ball prevented even more turn overs.

Perhaps it was the WR make the QB and not the other way.

Time will tell.

broncohead
05-05-2009, 11:47 AM
Outstanding post most diehard jay fans forget those long ball moments , or remeber them only as completetions.

They forget that only the battle of the WR figthing for the ball prevented even more turn overs.

Perhaps it was the WR make the QB and not the other way.

Time will tell.

Ya cause Walker is such a dominating WR now...

LRtagger
05-05-2009, 12:47 PM
Ya cause Walker is such a dominating WR now...

He was most dominant with Plummer behind center

powderaddict
05-05-2009, 12:56 PM
Ya cause Walker is such a dominating WR now...

Who cares what he is now, he played very well for the Broncos his first year here.

Lonestar
05-05-2009, 02:49 PM
He was most dominant with Plummer behind center

Hmmmmmmmm I wonder if?

broncohead
05-05-2009, 03:30 PM
He was most dominant with Plummer behind center

He had 1 good season with GB, a starter with Den, and well you know where he ended after that. He only had real good playing time in Den that had a dominant running game.

LRtagger
05-05-2009, 04:09 PM
He had 1 good season with GB, a starter with Den, and well you know where he ended after that. He only had real good playing time in Den that had a dominant running game.

That is besides the point...the point was he made Plummer a much better QB.

We should have a dominant running game for many years to come...meaning Marshall, Royal, and Knowshon should all make Orton a better player.

I would not be surprised if the team resembled more the 2005 squad this year rather than the 2008 squad. Not saying we will go 13-3, but I expect a much more balanced team that can score points and doesn't turn the ball over a lot. Something the 2006, 2007, and 2008 teams couldnt do.

broncohead
05-05-2009, 05:25 PM
That is besides the point...the point was he made Plummer a much better QB.

We should have a dominant running game for many years to come...meaning Marshall, Royal, and Knowshon should all make Orton a better player.

I would not be surprised if the team resembled more the 2005 squad this year rather than the 2008 squad. Not saying we will go 13-3, but I expect a much more balanced team that can score points and doesn't turn the ball over a lot. Something the 2006, 2007, and 2008 teams couldnt do.

Walker started playing for us in 06 which was an ok season
http://www.nfl.com/players/javonwalker/careerstats?id=WAL209632

Same year plummer was replaced and had a bad season due to system change
http://www.nfl.com/players/jakeplummer/profile?id=PLU243945

How did Walker make Plummer better? You may be thinking of Rod Smith

hamrob
05-05-2009, 06:19 PM
and lots of nobdies may be surprised to find out we do not need a rocket armed QB to win lots of games..Is that right? Well let me ask you this question:

How many Superbowls have we won without a rocket armed QB?


In fact...we've been to 6 Superbowls and 5 of them were because of a certain rocket armed QB. The 6th was because we had one of the best defenses of all time.

I kind of like our chances with a rocket armed QB myself...instead of a noodle arm QB and a poor defense!

gobroncsnv
05-05-2009, 07:02 PM
For my money, I'd rather have a SMASHING defense and a DECENT QB, it is a more time-tested formula...

I hope my post didn't indicate that I thought Jay doesn't have a decent arm. The way he could zip the ball on the skinny posts and deep outs was a sight to behold, and not just anybody could do that. I loved watching him, hoping that in a couple of years, he'd smooth out the mistakes, we would have a defense that COULD KEEP UP with our offense, and we'd be on our way again.

But, we should move on... It's the Kyle and Chris show now. Then again, moving on would eliminate about 65% of the posts on this board.

Broncos Mtnman
05-05-2009, 07:27 PM
I was wondering when someone would play the Jake comparison.

If the shoe fits....


Considering this pass he was talking about was probably the only long bomb they attempted in their first OTA and neither of them have any timing with each other this is just more hate mongering.

Oh, I get it. If there's only one long pass during practice, you're not expected to complete it.

I'm sure you'd be giving Jay the same break.

It's also convenient to use the "hater" label. Oppose the decisions of Mickey Mouse when it comes to Cutler, and you're a hater.

Weak, but convenient...


If next we have as many long passes missed as we have over the past year perhaps we have something to worry about.

Duh, but totally besides the point. My point was Mickey gives Orton a pass in order to make his boneheaded screwup with Cutler look legit. I see you don't have an answer to that one. Oh wait, yes you did, I'm a hater....


Now we have one bomb that he overthrew. Not sure how many jay had on his first day.

Doesn't matter. It wasn't my point.


Time to move on or move to dabears.com and follow wonderboy.

Another convenient retort. "Go root for someone else."

I seem to recall many telling you to do the same thing when you always went off on Shanny. And to your credit, you told them to take a hike. A fan can disagree, even vehemently, to the decisions being made by their team. It doesn't make them less a fan.

Back to the point of my post, Mickey was simply trying to make Orton into something he's not. His downfield inaccuracy was legend in Chicago, and for Mickey to try to make him into Cutler because he overthrew an open receiver was weak.

horsepig
05-05-2009, 07:49 PM
C'mon MTN, give the new guy(s) a chance. When it comes to strong armed QBs Elway was just something else; a leader, a risk taker that frequently made it work, a winner, and Elway had that indefinable thing where he could play like Schlumpy the mule for 55 minutes and then blow your mind with some kind of outlandish magic. I doubt I'll ever see another like that.

Cutler is nowhere in sniffing distance of that. He is a strong armed QB. Like Farve. Lots of bad choices, on and off the field. Give me a rock solid defense and a capable QB over the Stat Stud anyday.

horsepig
05-05-2009, 07:56 PM
I'm hoping for Orton to lead a dynamic, consistent O that holds the basll and generates a lot of 1'st downs. With much improved STs we will be MUCH improved in the field position battle. I also think we'll be significantly better in the Red Zone.

If this defense can improve even a little (how can it not?) we will have a more competitive team, a better team to watch.

honz
05-05-2009, 08:05 PM
Is that right? Well let me ask you this question:

How many Superbowls have we won without a rocket armed QB?


In fact...we've been to 6 Superbowls and 5 of them were because of a certain rocket armed QB. The 6th was because we had one of the best defenses of all time.

I kind of like our chances with a rocket armed QB myself...instead of a noodle arm QB and a poor defense!

There was a lot more that went in to making Elway great than his rocket arm. Neither Brady or Manning have what I would call a rocket arm, but they have been pretty much as successful as Elway.

Lonestar
05-05-2009, 08:18 PM
Is that right? Well let me ask you this question:

How many Superbowls have we won without a rocket armed QB?


In fact...we've been to 6 Superbowls and 5 of them were because of a certain rocket armed QB. The 6th was because we had one of the best defenses of all time.

I kind of like our chances with a rocket armed QB myself...instead of a noodle arm QB and a poor defense!

Well if that is the case unless Orton develops a rocket arm time for you to move to Chicago, or buy direct TV..

I doubt seriously that Orton has a noodle arm. I fact may have a stronger arm than most think if the comment about him overthrowing fast Eddie in a deep pass this past weekend..

Since the defense should be much better this coming year that seems to be most of your concerns..

Next?

BTW I sincerely doubted that jay had the stuff between the ears to lead this team to a super bowl.. Which I will not go into once again at this time..

JPPT1974
05-05-2009, 08:32 PM
At least Orton gets along with McDaniels, then say, Cutler has at all!:laugh:

nevcraw
05-05-2009, 08:34 PM
Outstanding post most diehard jay fans forget those long ball moments , or remeber them only as completetions.

They forget that only the battle of the WR figthing for the ball prevented even more turn overs.

Perhaps it was the WR make the QB and not the other way.

Time will tell.


Yep>> they made him lose by being close to the worst the league in dropped balls.

Lonestar
05-05-2009, 08:35 PM
If the shoe fits....

Oh, I get it. If there's only one long pass during practice, you're not expected to complete it.

I'm sure you'd be giving Jay the same break.

Unlike some yes I would have.. My only issuse with jay was/is imaturity the same issues I had with greasy (plus his bad arm but that was expalinable with the seperation)..

It's also convenient to use the "hater" label. Oppose the decisions of Mickey Mouse when it comes to Cutler, and you're a hater.

I do not hate jay just did not see all teh water walking that some folks did.. BIG arm means nothing to me unless they connect..

Weak, but convenient...

Duh, but totally besides the point. My point was Mickey gives Orton a pass in order to make his boneheaded screwup with Cutler look legit. I see you don't have an answer to that one. Oh wait, yes you did, I'm a hater....

I suspect you could get a good bulk price on tin foil, if you really beleive that comment..


Doesn't matter. It wasn't my point.

Another convenient retort. "Go root for someone else."

If you dislike the breoncos so much now taht jay is gone it is real simple Direct TV.. ot everything is Joshes fault in this matter, and since neither of us really knows for sure it is proabbly best YOU and I agree to disagree on this matter.. You can beleive waht you want and I jsut enjoy the upoming season..

I seem to recall many telling you to do the same thing when you always went off on Shanny. And to your credit, you told them to take a hike. A fan can disagree, even vehemently, to the decisions being made by their team. It doesn't make them less a fan.

Back to the point of my post, Mickey was simply trying to make Orton into something he's not. His downfield inaccuracy was legend in Chicago, and for Mickey to try to make him into Cutler because he overthrew an open receiver was weak.

Most of my replies are in orange above.

We have had some epic battles over Jake and Jay IMHO neither one changed their minds on it and IMHO not worth trying to do so now..

Believe what you wish..

I for one will not lose any sleep over it..

Especially now that we have a reworked FO new HC and at last a real set of Defensive coaches from the top down.. It is a new dawn in DEN I'm excited about it..Hopefully no more "we are 1 or 2 players away from a Superbowl" speech's each EOY..

nevcraw
05-05-2009, 08:36 PM
There was a lot more that went in to making Elway great than his rocket arm. Neither Brady or Manning have what I would call a rocket arm, but they have been pretty much as successful as Elway.


Manning has a laser rocket arm..

Lonestar
05-05-2009, 08:39 PM
Yep>> they made him lose by being close to the worst the league in dropped balls.


Did not know they had an dropped balls by QB stat in the NFL.. Got a link?

Lonestar
05-05-2009, 08:42 PM
Manning has a laser rocket arm..

laser perhaps but I have not seen the long ball very often from him..

Most of his long completions came from short to mid passes and great YAC by his WR's..

nevcraw
05-05-2009, 08:42 PM
Did not know they had an dropped balls by QB stat in the NFL.. Got a link?

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232


By team:

Rank Team Passes Dropped
1 Jacksonville Jaguars 40
2 Cleveland Browns 36
3 Denver Broncos 34
4 New York Giants 33
5 Philadelphia Eagles 33
6 Green Bay Packers 32
7 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 32
8 Cincinnati Bengals 31
9 Seattle Seahawks 31
10 Indianapolis Colts 30

nevcraw
05-05-2009, 08:45 PM
laser perhaps but I have not seen the long ball very often from him..

Most of his long completions came from short to mid passes and great YAC by his WR's..

I can remember a few against our beloved... wish i didn't..

My post was bit of a joke - Peyton in a commercial made reference to his own "laser rocket arm" or something like that..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G0loI0Jn5M

Lonestar
05-05-2009, 08:48 PM
http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232


By team:

Rank Team Passes Dropped
1 Jacksonville Jaguars 40
2 Cleveland Browns 36
3 Denver Broncos 34
4 New York Giants 33
5 Philadelphia Eagles 33
6 Green Bay Packers 32
7 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 32
8 Cincinnati Bengals 31
9 Seattle Seahawks 31
10 Indianapolis Colts 30


Thanks I note that Manning had just 4 less than jay did Mc Nab 1 less, rogers in GB 2 less..

Wow he was really bad dropping all of those passes..

Maybe we should get rid of him send him to Chicago.. ahahahahahahahaha

honz
05-05-2009, 08:56 PM
Manning has a laser rocket arm..

Not compared to Cutler or Elway...

nevcraw
05-05-2009, 09:00 PM
Thanks I note that Manning had just 4 less than jay did Mc Nab 1 less, rogers in GB 2 less..

Wow he was really bad dropping all of those passes..

Maybe we should get rid of him send him to Chicago.. ahahahahahahahaha
Manning's recievers had 6 less drops.

also note only 3 of the top 10 in drops made the playoff's.
2 had good QB's, solid running games and stout defenses.
1 had the Peyton Manning with his laser rocket arm.

nevcraw
05-05-2009, 09:06 PM
Not compared to Cutler or Elway...

see -
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=651800&postcount=65

:salute:

Lonestar
05-05-2009, 10:25 PM
Manning's recievers had 6 less drops.

also note only 3 of the top 10 in drops made the playoff's.
2 had good QB's, solid running games and stout defenses.
1 had the Peyton Manning with his laser rocket arm.

I stand corrected and will edit my post.. Must be the "NEW" math.. I was trying to teach my son 20 years ago..


IMHO stout defenses or running games really have nothing to do with dropped passes that IMHO is JUST the WR, who has a clean catch and drops it.. For that matter it should not reflect on the QB at all..

sneakers
05-05-2009, 11:33 PM
I remember seeing him throw the ball all over the place when he was with Purdue....it seemed he threw 4 or 5 touchdown passes every game against the Badgers...I was always surprised that the Bears didn't let him throw while he was there

Lonestar
05-05-2009, 11:56 PM
I remember seeing him throw the ball all over the place when he was with Purdue....it seemed he threw 4 or 5 touchdown passes every game against the Badgers...I was always surprised that the Bears didn't let him throw while he was there

just might have another Drew Breeze on our hands.. if so we could do worse ,, And to think he was not a first round pick either.. and probably an franchise QB and on his way to the HOF..

Dirk
05-06-2009, 05:54 AM
just might have another Drew Breeze on our hands.. if so we could do worse ,, And to think he was not a first round pick either.. and probably an franchise QB and on his way to the HOF..


I'm behind Orton all the way now that he is a Broncos QB, but I don't know if I can go this far. :laugh:

YET! :D

Dirk
05-06-2009, 05:58 AM
Is that right? Well let me ask you this question:

How many Superbowls have we won without a rocket armed QB?


In fact...we've been to 6 Superbowls and 5 of them were because of a certain rocket armed QB. The 6th was because we had one of the best defenses of all time.

I kind of like our chances with a rocket armed QB myself...instead of a noodle arm QB and a poor defense!

I see your point here. But playing devil's advocate....how many of those Superbowls did we lose with a "rocket armed QB"?

It all comes down to the entire team being decent. Do you need a good QB? Yes, if the team around him isn't that good. Can you win the SB with an average or under average QB? Yes, see Trent Dilfer.

It all comes down to the team being able to come together and execute. It doesn't matter how great your QB is...if the team isn't there you don't win SBs....see Dan Marino.

gobroncsnv
05-06-2009, 06:58 AM
anyone think Montana had a rocket arm?

BroncosRockdaRockies
05-06-2009, 07:19 AM
Great Read!

Goooooooooooooo Broncoooooooooos!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nomad
05-06-2009, 07:59 AM
I see your point here. But playing devil's advocate....how many of those Superbowls did we lose with a "rocket armed QB"?

the entire team being decent. Do you need a good QB? Yes, if the team around him isn't that good. Can you win the SB with an average or under average QB? Yes, see Trent Dilfer.

It all comes down to the team being able to come together and execute. It doesn't matter how great your QB is...if the team isn't there you don't win SBs....see Dan Marino.

Great point! Those teams from 97-98 were one of the greatest and not just because of Elway. His will-to-win (leadership) fueled the motivation, but if one piece from those teams were missing especially the GB game, the BRONCOS would have lost their 4th SB. I would love to say if it weren't for TD then but if you remember the season many players had key moments to seal games and it was a complete team effort. The 1997 season and Atlanta game was pure domination:D by a complete team. What Cutler lacked was the ability to rally his teammates no matter how medicore one aspect of the game was. NO.....you don't need a laser rocket armed QB to win games...you need a complete team and one who is willing to lead!!

powderaddict
05-06-2009, 09:33 AM
http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232


By team:

Rank Team Passes Dropped
1 Jacksonville Jaguars 40
2 Cleveland Browns 36
3 Denver Broncos 34
4 New York Giants 33
5 Philadelphia Eagles 33
6 Green Bay Packers 32
7 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 32
8 Cincinnati Bengals 31
9 Seattle Seahawks 31
10 Indianapolis Colts 30

That's all nice and good, but only gives a small piece of the picture. How many drops per pass attempt? That's what I want to know. The total is pretty high, but if you average it per pass attempt I'd imagine the rank would change, probably considerably.

nevcraw
05-06-2009, 09:56 AM
That's all nice and good, but only gives a small piece of the picture. How many drops per pass attempt? That's what I want to know. The total is pretty high, but if you average it per pass attempt I'd imagine the rank would change, probably considerably.

By all means, go for it.. I had a hard enough time finding this info.. But you are right it is small piece of the failures of last season.

1. Atrocious defense (scheme and talent and execution)
2. Inconsistant to non existant Running game (injury and finding the hot hand)
3. Team won and lost squarely based on wether or not Cutler played his best football each Sunday. (when he did they won, when he did not they lost)
4. Inconsistant play from Brandon Marshall (injury, dropped balls)
5. ST (Coverage, and kicking down the stretch.

TXBRONC
05-06-2009, 10:13 AM
That's all nice and good, but only gives a small piece of the picture. How many drops per pass attempt? That's what I want to know. The total is pretty high, but if you average it per pass attempt I'd imagine the rank would change, probably considerably.

I doubt it would.

Ravage!!!
05-06-2009, 10:38 AM
That's all nice and good, but only gives a small piece of the picture. How many drops per pass attempt? That's what I want to know. The total is pretty high, but if you average it per pass attempt I'd imagine the rank would change, probably considerably.

Same with the receivers. People want to give Marshal crap for his drops, but when you compare his drops to the number times he was targeted, his drops are no more than the best in the NFL.

So to look at the list with the number of pass attempts (per team) divided by INTs


Rank Team Passes Dropped
1) Jax 537att /40 = 13.42
2) Clv 488att /36 = 12.44
3) Den 620att /36 = 18.23
4) NYG 491att /33 = 14.87
5) Phy 606att /33 = 18.36
6) GB 541att /32 = 16.90
7) TB 562att /32 = 17.56
8) Cin 513att /31 = 16.54
9) Sea 474att /31 = 15.29
10) Indy 585 /30 = 19.5

So the ranking if you go from drops/per fewest number of passes (just using these same 10 teams):

1) Cleveland - 1 drop every 12.4 passes
2) Jacksonville - 1 drop every 13.42 passes
3) New York Giants- 1 drop every 14.87 passes
4) Seattle- 1 drop every 15.29 passes(moved up 5 spots on the top ten list)
5) Cincinatti 1 drop every 16.54 passes
6) Green Bay- 1 drop eery 16.9 passes
7) Tampa Bay - 1 drop every 17.56 passes
8) Denver - 1 drop every 18.23 passes
9) Philly - 1 drop every 18.36 passes
10) Indianapolis - 1 drop every 19.5 passes

powderaddict
05-06-2009, 12:00 PM
Same with the receivers. People want to give Marshal crap for his drops, but when you compare his drops to the number times he was targeted, his drops are no more than the best in the NFL.

So to look at the list with the number of pass attempts (per team) divided by INTs



So the ranking if you go from drops/per fewest number of passes (just using these same 10 teams):

1) Cleveland - 1 drop every 12.4 passes
2) Jacksonville - 1 drop every 13.42 passes
3) New York Giants- 1 drop every 14.87 passes
4) Seattle- 1 drop every 15.29 passes(moved up 5 spots on the top ten list)
5) Cincinatti 1 drop every 16.54 passes
6) Green Bay- 1 drop eery 16.9 passes
7) Tampa Bay - 1 drop every 17.56 passes
8) Denver - 1 drop every 18.23 passes
9) Philly - 1 drop every 18.36 passes
10) Indianapolis - 1 drop every 19.5 passes

So there you go, instead of being right there with Cleveland, and the Giants, they were significantly better in the dropped pass rate.

#8 on that list - which is only the original 10 teams listed (and probably much lower compared to all 32), instead of #3 in the league. Thanks Ravage.

I think Orton will have plenty to work with. Hopefully Marshall will have improved from injuries (reducing the number of drops), plus the addition of Moreno (RB is one of the easiet positions for Rookies to have an immediate impact), the offense should still be a huge threat. Hopefully Orton is up to the task, the offense still has the potential to be very, very good.

Ravage!!!
05-06-2009, 09:28 PM
So there you go, instead of being right there with Cleveland, and the Giants, they were significantly better in the dropped pass rate.

#8 on that list - which is only the original 10 teams listed (and probably much lower compared to all 32), instead of #3 in the league. Thanks Ravage.

I think Orton will have plenty to work with. Hopefully Marshall will have improved from injuries (reducing the number of drops), plus the addition of Moreno (RB is one of the easiet positions for Rookies to have an immediate impact), the offense should still be a huge threat. Hopefully Orton is up to the task, the offense still has the potential to be very, very good.

I think you'll find that the injury to Marshall wasn't really a factor in his drops. Sounds good, but I just don't see how you catch 104 passes in the traffic he did, and say that his hands weren't good enough to catch the passes.

I believe someone posted the stats on number of drops to pass targets, and Marshall's % of drops was not worse than the average WR in the NFL.