Cutler/Orton take from a Bears fan friend of mine...

[atwater27]

So I ran into a HUUUUGE and very football savvy Bears fan the other day that I haven't talked to since before the whole Cutler fiasco.
I asked him what he thought about Cutler being a Bear. He couldn't have been more happy! We both came to the conclusion that he has no recivers to throw to, but that Olsen would have like 80 catches for 1000 yards next season, and that we would both pick the TE up in our fantasy leagues. But he was stoked about Cutty, and agreed with me that McDaniels was an idiot to have traded him. He also thought McDaniels draft was horrid. I agreed, but then reminded him the Bears draft wasn't so hot either. He agreed.
He also said that the trade instantly made Chicago a Super Bowl contender. I said I'll believe it if he picked up a decent receiver or 2, and not to expect 4000 yards and 40 TD passes quite yet.

On the other hand, I asked him if Denver had a good QB in Orton. He told me the guy would fit in perfectly in Denver and that he was a very good QB. He said he was smarter than his dumb looking face and neck beard suggested, and that he would have made the pro bowl last season if not for his injury. He reiterated that the trade benefited both teams perfectly, and that Orton would do well in Denver.

[Shazam!]

and agreed with me that McDaniels was an idiot to have traded him...

McDaniels' hands were tied here. When you insult the owner, you deserve to go. I'm tired of talking about it.

Nice take on Orton and I don't think he'll resemble the Bears QB we once knew. Denver won with Jake Plummer a few years ago, who was one mistake-prone QB. All he has to do is be efficient and not make mistakes... like endzone INTs. I hope Brandstater learns from him.

[atwater27]

McDaniels' hands were tied here. When you insult the owner, you deserve to go. I'm tired of talking about it.
.

I'm not. I will talk about it forever.

[Dirk]

I agree!

If Orton can keep the mistakes down and manage the game effeciently, I think he will do well.

[Dirk]

I'm not. I will talk about it forever.

And unfortunately the broadcasters will too, every time a Bears or Broncos game is on.

It is going to get as old as Madden talking about Favre. :tsk:

[Shazam!]

If the Broncos win, everyone will be calling McDaniels a genius and forget about Cutler superfast. It's a big IF but can happen. And IF the Broncos tank I will be the first to call for his head.

[Dirk]

Hell for all we know...Simms could beat out Orton for the starting role.....:eek:

Anyone think of that? :confused:

[Tned]

McDaniels' hands were tied here. When you insult the owner, you deserve to go. I'm tired of talking about it.



It seems pretty clear that McDaniels tied his own hands. Meaning, he pushed it to the brink, then said, "I have no choice."

Cutler acted sophomorish, no question about that, but McDaniels created the fiasco.

The said part is what looked like awesome value for Cutler is now questionable, since we got Orton, Ayers, Smith and half of a blocking tight end. That means that two of these guys (orton, ayers or smith) are going to have to be perennial pro-bowlers, and/or HOF'rs for this to not look like a major debacle.

[Dirk]

It seems pretty clear that McDaniels tied his own hands. Meaning, he pushed it to the brink, then said, "I have no choice."

Cutler acted sophomorish, no question about that, but McDaniels created the fiasco.

The said part is what looked like awesome value for Cutler is now questionable, since we got Orton, Ayers, Smith and half of a blocking tight end. That means that two of these guys (orton, ayers or smith) are going to have to be perennial pro-bowlers, and/or HOF'rs for this to not look like a major debacle.

Or Cutler fails in Chicago. :D

[SoCalImport]

"and agreed with me that McDaniels was an idiot to have traded him."

"He reiterated that the trade benefited both teams perfectly, and that Orton would do well in Denver."

Umm... I'm confused:confused: Which one was it?

[topscribe]

McDaniels' hands were tied here. When you insult the owner, you deserve to go. I'm tired of talking about it.

Nice take on Orton and I don't think he'll resemble the Bears QB we once knew. Denver won with Jake Plummer a few years ago, who was one mistake-prone QB. All he has to do is be efficient and not make mistakes... like endzone INTs. I hope Brandstater learns from him.

We just need to keep in mind that the Bears QB we once knew actually played
on the field for only two years. So, in essence, Orton is only a third-year QB,
going into this year. Viewed from that perspective, Orton didn't do half bad,
IMO.

Regarding Cutler, I don't care anymore . . .

-----

[TXBRONC]

Or Cutler fails in Chicago. :D

So McDaniels could justify having a losing record if Cutler fails in Chicago?

[topscribe]

So McDaniels could justify having a losing record if Cutler fails in Chicago?

The Bears didn't have a losing record with Orton . . .

-----

[Dirk]

So McDaniels could justify having a losing record if Cutler fails in Chicago?


No. We are talking trade value here. Not win vs loss. If the players we got in the draft do well and Orton does well and Cutler fails....nuff said.

[honz]

And unfortunately the broadcasters will too, every time a Bears or Broncos game is on.

It is going to get as old as Madden talking about Favre. :tsk:

Hopefully the Broncos have the better record next year and get the last laugh.

[honz]

It seems pretty clear that McDaniels tied his own hands. Meaning, he pushed it to the brink, then said, "I have no choice."

Cutler acted sophomorish, no question about that, but McDaniels created the fiasco.

The said part is what looked like awesome value for Cutler is now questionable, since we got Orton, Ayers, Smith and half of a blocking tight end. That means that two of these guys (orton, ayers or smith) are going to have to be perennial pro-bowlers, and/or HOF'rs for this to not look like a major debacle.
You can stick Moreno and next year's 1st rounder on that list too. Without those extra first round picks do we take a RB at 12? Do we make that trade for Smith? Doubt it.

[Ravage!!!]

You can stick Moreno and next year's 1st rounder on that list too. Without those extra first round picks do we take a RB at 12? Do we make that trade for Smith? Doubt it.

Doesn't matter though, because those are the players that will be associated with the picks... Ayers (since it was Chicago's pick).. Smith (since its one we gave away BECAUSE of our Chicago pick).. and the TE.. because we gave up our gained third to reach for him.

So speculation on what we would have picked is moot.

[CoachChaz]

I have a cousin that is a huge Bears fan and he's not very excited about the trade. His take is that the upgrade was needed with the receivers and line more than the QB. He believes Cutler has more talent and could do more if they had anything around him, but he's not quite as thrilled to have a "whiner" and his agent in town drinking up all his booze.

Anyway, it just shows that like us...different fans have different takes on things.

[honz]

Doesn't matter though, because those are the players that will be associated with the picks... Ayers (since it was Chicago's pick).. Smith (since its one we gave away BECAUSE of our Chicago pick).. and the TE.. because we gave up our gained third to reach for him.

So speculation on what we would have picked is moot.

I just gave you reasons why it shouldn't be that way... :confused:

[Dirk]

..... drinking up all his booze.

You mean Orton left some in Chicago?? :laugh:

[Tned]

You can stick Moreno and next year's 1st rounder on that list too. Without those extra first round picks do we take a RB at 12? Do we make that trade for Smith? Doubt it.

You certainly can't throw next year's first on to "what we got from Cutler". Also, based on the way McDaniels drafted, I think it's fair to say there is a very good chance he would have drafted Moreno even if we had only one first rounder.

[honz]

You certainly can't throw next year's first on to "what we got from Cutler". Also, based on the way McDaniels drafted, I think it's fair to say there is a very good chance he would have drafted Moreno even if we had only one first rounder.

You can't? It's the Bears' pick that we got in the Cutler trade, is it not?

[Nomad]

You mean Orton left some in Chicago?? :laugh:

Big difference when Cutler drinks MGD 64 and Orton drinks Jack Daniels;):D

[broncfn90]

"you wont know what we had till its gone".... bronco fans that is glad he is gone

[Dirk]

"you wont know what we had till its gone".... bronco fans that is glad he is gone

I would venture to say that most people would have loved for him to stay. But once he made up his mind that he wanted to go....then we say go. :coffee:

[broncfn90]

I would venture to say that most people would have loved for him to stay. But once he made up his mind that he wanted to go....then we say go. :coffee:

... I want to agure with you but I am all agured out for the last two months

[CoachChaz]

Big difference when Cutler drinks MGD 64 and Orton drinks Jack Daniels;):D

Well, that tells me who has the bigger balls to lead a team.

[Tned]

You can't? It's the Bears' pick that we got in the Cutler trade, is it not?

Come on Honz, you and I both know that Smith is the one 'tied' to Cutler. McDaniels has stated that the reason he had no problem making the 'highly questioned' trade of a first rounder for Smith, was because he had the pick from Chicago. So, while technically they used the Broncos 'natural' pick they only reason that Smith was taken with a first round pick, was because of the Cutler trade.

[Ravage!!!]

I just gave you reasons why it shouldn't be that way... :confused:

But you can say it 'can't'.. all you want. That doesn't make the reality. Also.. if I can throw those in, couldn't I very well "speculate" on what we WOULD have picked with the draft choice that we gave away and take that AWAY from our trade? Works both ways.

[honz]

Come on Honz, you and I both know that Smith is the one 'tied' to Cutler. McDaniels has stated that the reason he had no problem making the 'highly questioned' trade of a first rounder for Smith, was because he had the pick from Chicago. So, while technically they used the Broncos 'natural' pick they only reason that Smith was taken with a first round pick, was because of the Cutler trade.
Yes, but the whole reason that we have that flexibility is because we had 2 1st round picks. It allows us to make those moves and still have picks in every round of the draft next year. Maybe the media or nearsighted fans will look at 3 specific players when looking at what we got for Cutler, but it seems the entire 1st 2 rounds this year and our first round pick next year should be taken into consideration.

[roomemp]

Here is my QB projection for the Broncos next year.

Orton wins the job over Simms.

Orton has about 3,700 yards passing.......23TD's vs 12 picks........

[T.K.O.]

So McDaniels could justify having a losing record if Cutler fails in Chicago?

sure there is no way to tell if cutler would have improved our record,not to mention our schedule is brutal compared to last years and we were only 8-8 with cutler then !

[silkamilkamonico]

If Cutler fails in Chicago, it means he was a system guy, who benefited in Shanahan's system, the same system that turned Brian Griesballs and Jake Plunger into Pro Bowler's, and considering McDaniels is no longer running Shanahan's system, I'd say it was a damn good trade.

I don't think Cutler's going to fail in Chicago necessarily, but yea, if he does, I think there's n question that's how you have to look at it.

[T.K.O.]

Here is my QB projection for the Broncos next year.

Orton wins the job over Simms.

Orton has about 3,700 yards passing.......23TD's vs 12 picks........

sounds about right to me...
then add 1570 yds rushing for moreno....".championship !"
(it could happen)

[getlynched47]

Here is my QB projection for the Broncos next year.

Orton wins the job over Simms.

Orton has about 3,700 yards passing.......23TD's vs 12 picks........

Quite honestly....i really don't give a **** about what kind of stats Orton puts up.

Orton needs to put that record of his on a showcase.....and prove that he can win without a defense...

I want wins from Orton......that's the reason we got the guy right? Because he's a winner?

[OrangeHoof]

And IF the Broncos tank I will be the first to call for his head.

You won't be the first. The line has already formed.

[Tned]

Here is my QB projection for the Broncos next year.

Orton wins the job over Simms.

Orton has about 3,700 yards passing.......23TD's vs 12 picks........

TD's and picks are hard to predict, but I would guess your yards aren't off by much, and I think you 'ratio' to TD/INTs are probably close.

I'm going to watch more of the NFL rewind of Chicago's first seven games (will watch one or two this weekend), before Orton got hurt, to get a better feel for how he plays.

[getlynched47]

TD's and picks are hard to predict, but I would guess your yards aren't off by much, and I think you 'ratio' to TD/INTs are probably close.

I'm going to watch more of the NFL rewind of Chicago's first seven games (will watch one or two this weekend), before Orton got hurt, to get a better feel for how he plays.

Check down, check down, hand off to Forte, check down, short throw turned into huge gain by Hester breaking some tackles, check down, hand off, hand off, check down, hand off, ocassional run.....and then get into the endzone and a failed TD spike: http://www.mouthpiecesports.com/blog/2008/12/12/kyle-ortons-failed-touchdown-celebration-spike/

[broncofaninfla]

All of the Bears fans I know are stoked about the trade. They say they won't miss Orton and are happy to have Cutler. The lack of love from these guys is what scares me the most about Orton. I think he has potential and he is on a better team offensively so I give him a sluggers chance of contributing for us. I'm not counting out Simms just yet though, he could very well beat Orton out.

[shank]

All of the Bears fans I know are stoked about the trade. They say they won't miss Orton and are happy to have Cutler. The lack of love from these guys is what scares me the most about Orton. I think he has potential and he is on a better team offensively so I give him a sluggers chance of contributing for us. I'm not counting out Simms just yet though, he could very well beat Orton out.

bears fans hate all their QBs. the important thing to look at is how orton's teammates felt about him... they all loved him and were sad to see him leave chicago.

[shank]

Check down, check down, hand off to Forte, check down, short throw turned into huge gain by Hester breaking some tackles, check down, hand off, hand off, check down, hand off, ocassional run.....and then get into the endzone and a failed TD spike: http://www.mouthpiecesports.com/blog/2008/12/12/kyle-ortons-failed-touchdown-celebration-spike/

i don't know what your point is... is this supposed to be a bad thing? the drive ended in a TD and ate up clock. put our receiving weapons in that scenario, and there will be less checkdowns becasue more people are open downfield or making plays after the catch.

hopefully he works on his spiking this offseason.

[Lonestar]

It seems pretty clear that McDaniels tied his own hands. Meaning, he pushed it to the brink, then said, "I have no choice."

Cutler acted sophomorish, no question about that, but McDaniels created the fiasco.

The said part is what looked like awesome value for Cutler is now questionable, since we got Orton, Ayers, Smith and half of a blocking tight end. That means that two of these guys (orton, ayers or smith) are going to have to be perennial pro-bowlers, and/or HOF'rs for this to not look like a major debacle.

Up until cutler and Clady I hardly think that MOST of mikes 1st rounders could be pro bowlers or for th matter HOF types.

For most of them they were starters in their 2-4th years and even then they were a joke..

I'm not understanding why Josh is being held to a higher standard..

[Ravage!!!]

bears fans hate all their QBs. the important thing to look at is how orton's teammates felt about him... they all loved him and were sad to see him leave chicago.

True.. which means he's a good guy. But... the ND Irish loved Rudy too.... doesn't mean I want Rudy starting

[Ravage!!!]

Up until cutler and Clady I hardly think that MOST of mikes 1st rounders could be pro bowlers or for th matter HOF types.

For most of them they were starters in their 2-4th years and even then they were a joke..

I'm not understanding why Josh is being held to a higher standard..

Because Mike ws so criticized for his GM duties and drafting. If he was considered to be bad, and was fired for his GM'ing rather than his coaching..we BETTER be putting Josh to higher standards.

[DenBronx]

McDaniels' hands were tied here. When you insult the owner, you deserve to go. I'm tired of talking about it.

Nice take on Orton and I don't think he'll resemble the Bears QB we once knew. Denver won with Jake Plummer a few years ago, who was one mistake-prone QB. All he has to do is be efficient and not make mistakes... like endzone INTs. I hope Brandstater learns from him.


jake plummer is totally irrelevant. shanny was the coach back then and our whole playbook was differant. plummer was the master of the bootleg and mike quickly put his skills to use.

orton is not in the same situation as plummer.

[Lonestar]

Because Mike ws so criticized for his GM duties and drafting. If he was considered to be bad, and was fired for his GM'ing rather than his coaching..we BETTER be putting Josh to higher standards.


I was just saying it was OK for most fans then and now it is not..

and to hold some one to Probowl/HOF standards when most of mikes were not even day one starters the expectations are a tad off.

[OrangeHoof]

Up until cutler and Clady I hardly think that MOST of mikes 1st rounders could be pro bowlers or for th matter HOF types.

For most of them they were starters in their 2-4th years and even then they were a joke..

I'm not understanding why Josh is being held to a higher standard..

Broncos 1st round picks under Shanahan:

1996: John Mobley... yeah, he was joke. :tsk:
1997: Trevor Pryce... yeah, complete bust. What was Shanny thinking? :tsk:
1998: Marcus Nash (that was a true bust)
1999: Al Wilson... total waste of a pick here. :rolleyes:
2000: Deltha O'Neal... yeah, totally worthless. Good thing the Bengals took him off our hands.
2001: Willie Middlebrooks (no question, a bad pick)
2002: Ashley Lelie.... yeah, this shows what happens when you let the owner do the drafting.
2003: George Foster... this was a WTF pick from the get-go.
2004: D.J. Williams... total trash, a complete bust. :tsk:
2006: Jay Cutler... whining crybaby loser drunk Shanny traded up to get. :rolleyes:
2007: Jarvis Moss... can't stay out of the trainer's room.
2008: Ryan Clady... complete bust. :tsk:

Yeah, JR. I see what you mean. Everything Shanny drafted went totally in the toilet. Why, compared to this McDiapers is just pure genius. :beer:

[getlynched47]

i don't know what your point is... is this supposed to be a bad thing? the drive ended in a TD and ate up clock. put our receiving weapons in that scenario, and there will be less checkdowns becasue more people are open downfield or making plays after the catch.

hopefully he works on his spiking this offseason.

Joke.

I found it hilarious when he failed at spiking the ball....I thought others would find it funny too! :lol:

[weazel]

So I ran into a HUUUUGE and very football savvy Bears fan the other day that I haven't talked to since before the whole Cutler fiasco.
I asked him what he thought about Cutler being a Bear. He couldn't have been more happy! We both came to the conclusion that he has no recivers to throw to, but that Olsen would have like 80 catches for 1000 yards next season, and that we would both pick the TE up in our fantasy leagues. But he was stoked about Cutty, and agreed with me that McDaniels was an idiot to have traded him. He also thought McDaniels draft was horrid. I agreed, but then reminded him the Bears draft wasn't so hot either. He agreed.
He also said that the trade instantly made Chicago a Super Bowl contender. I said I'll believe it if he picked up a decent receiver or 2, and not to expect 4000 yards and 40 TD passes quite yet.

On the other hand, I asked him if Denver had a good QB in Orton. He told me the guy would fit in perfectly in Denver and that he was a very good QB. He said he was smarter than his dumb looking face and neck beard suggested, and that he would have made the pro bowl last season if not for his injury. He reiterated that the trade benefited both teams perfectly, and that Orton would do well in Denver.

I had a friend who also commented on the trade, check it out atwater27!
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=620645&postcount=1
:elefant:

[Tempus Fugit]

It seems pretty clear that McDaniels tied his own hands. Meaning, he pushed it to the brink, then said, "I have no choice."

Cutler acted sophomorish, no question about that, but McDaniels created the fiasco.

The said part is what looked like awesome value for Cutler is now questionable, since we got Orton, Ayers, Smith and half of a blocking tight end. That means that two of these guys (orton, ayers or smith) are going to have to be perennial pro-bowlers, and/or HOF'rs for this to not look like a major debacle.

It seems nothing of the kind to me, based upon the actual things we know happened (based upon corroboration). Then again, I like facts over speculation, and I don't trust any reporter's account when they can't get verification.

[Tned]

Exactly, what facts are those?

[Never Trust a Snake]

Broncos 1st round picks under Shanahan:

1996: John Mobley... yeah, he was joke. :tsk:
1997: Trevor Pryce... yeah, complete bust. What was Shanny thinking? :tsk:
1998: Marcus Nash (that was a true bust)
1999: Al Wilson... total waste of a pick here. :rolleyes:
2000: Deltha O'Neal... yeah, totally worthless. Good thing the Bengals took him off our hands.
2001: Willie Middlebrooks (no question, a bad pick)
2002: Ashley Lelie.... yeah, this shows what happens when you let the owner do the drafting.
2003: George Foster... this was a WTF pick from the get-go.
2004: D.J. Williams... total trash, a complete bust. :tsk:
2006: Jay Cutler... whining crybaby loser drunk Shanny traded up to get. :rolleyes:
2007: Jarvis Moss... can't stay out of the trainer's room.
2008: Ryan Clady... complete bust. :tsk:

Yeah, JR. I see what you mean. Everything Shanny drafted went totally in the toilet. Why, compared to this McDiapers is just pure genius. :beer:


Nash was an overblown bust. Denver was picking at #30 that season.

O'Neal was a solid pick for us. He made big plays for the Broncos in both the secondary and special teams.

Lelie did have a good year for Denver in 2004. Prior to 2005, he looked like he could have been a Pro Bowler, but he regressed from that point forward.

[topscribe]

Nash was an overblown bust. Denver was picking at #30 that season.

O'Neal was a solid pick for us. He made big plays for the Broncos in both the secondary and special teams.

Lelie did have a good year for Denver in 2004. Prior to 2005, he looked like he could have been a Pro Bowler, but he regressed from that point forward.

All Lelie could do is outrun somebody once in a while. He was not good on
short routes and was worthless over the middle. For where he was selected,
he was the quintessential bust.

O'Neal was a solid pick for Cincinnati. He was a bust for us.

-----

[Watchthemiddle]

bears fans hate all their QBs. the important thing to look at is how orton's teammates felt about him... they all loved him and were sad to see him leave chicago.

You beat me to it.

I heard Bears players after the trade talking highly of Orton. Urlacher being one ...and I think he is pretty credible. Great locker room guy, great leader, well loved by his team.

Where were all of the Cutler teammates after the trade?

[Tned]

You beat me to it.

I heard Bears players after the trade talking highly of Orton. Urlacher being one ...and I think he is pretty credible. Great locker room guy, great leader, well loved by his team.

Where were all of the Cutler teammates after the trade?

Maybe they were worried if they voiced any support for Jay, that McDaniels would run them out of town, too. Who the heck knows.

This is more about Jake than Jay, but they are both gone.

[Watchthemiddle]

Maybe they were worried if they voiced any support for Jay, that McDaniels would run them out of town, too. Who the heck knows.

This is more about Jake than Jay, but they are both gone.

:confused:

[Never Trust a Snake]

All Lelie could do is outrun somebody once in a while. He was not good on
short routes and was worthless over the middle. For where he was selected,
he was the quintessential bust.

I felt he could have had a Chad Johnson type run as a WR. You're right that short routes and going over the middle wasn't his strength I thought he started to come around and improve on his over-the-middle routes in 2005, the year he got frustrated with the Broncos' usage of him.

What ultimately set him back though was his lack of drive. He suffered from Rashaan Salaam disease.


O'Neal was a solid pick for Cincinnati. He was a bust for us.
-----

Denver had very few playmakers on the 8-8 team in 2001. Rod Smith was hobbling on bad ankles, while lining up alongside the likes of Chris Cole, Scottie Montgomery and Kevin Kasper. O'Neal's home run plays were huge that season for Denver. He intercepted 9 passes (including both Manning and Brady) and returned a punt for a TD.

In four years with Denver, O'Neal had 1 kickoff returned for a TD and 2 punts for TDs. I realize everybody remembers 2003 when O'Neal went into Shanahan's doghouse after he surrendered a late 4th quarter TD to New England on MNF, but he was a productive big-play guy for Denver for the most part.

I view Lelie and O'Neal in the same fashion as Bobby Humphrey. All three produced for Denver, but for an abbreviated time frame.

All of them are disapointments because of they didn't fulfill their upside, but I wouldn't call them busts.

[Tned]

:confused:

Your constant Jay bashing comments are actually about Jake.

[Watchthemiddle]

Your constant Jay bashing comments are actually about Jake.

Anyway...I was commenting on the two QB's mentioned in the thread title

Thanks though for speculating on WHO I am talking about.

[Tempus Fugit]

Exactly, what facts are those?

1.) Cutler expressed enough concern about the coaching after Shanahan was fired that he and Bowlen had a talk.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/03/19/bowlen-cutler-did-talk-after-shanahan-was-fired/

2.) The Broncos did have trade talks with teams, and those talks included the possibility of Cutler being traded and Cassel being part of the deal as part of 3-way trade scenarios. The question of who initiated such talks remains a point of contention, however.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80f457d4&template=without-video-with-comments&confirm=true

3.) Cutler formally requested a trade.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80f457d4&template=without-video-with-comments&confirm=true

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3983805

3.a) Once the trade was made, Cutler claimed he DIDN'T want to be traded.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9403016/Cutler-speaks:-%27I-didn%27t-want-to-get-traded%27

4.) Cutler claimed that he hadn't head from the team in 10 days.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9403016/Cutler-speaks:-%27I-didn%27t-want-to-get-traded%27

4a.) Cutler did receive a call from his agent on behalf of the Broncos who were trying to talk with him and failed to return it (unless his agent lied/his cell phone lied/he's not smart enough to use his own cell phone/the call was lost in the ether). (Verified by the agent)

5.) Cutler put property on the market

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3981792

6.) Cutler did not attend the OTA

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80f457d4&template=without-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Those are items that are either proven facts or assertions corroborated by the other parties involved.

[Watchthemiddle]

Owned

[Tned]

Nice timeline, but I don't see how that tells us with 'facts' exactly what happened.

[topscribe]

Quite honestly....i really don't give a **** about what kind of stats Orton puts up.

Orton needs to put that record of his on a showcase.....and prove that he can win without a defense...

I want wins from Orton......that's the reason we got the guy right? Because he's a winner?

Since we're talking about the Broncos, I'd rather Orton show he can win with a defense . . . :coffee:

[Tned]

So, let me see if I get this. Shanahan is fired. Bowlen calls Cutler (something he later 'forgets' he did) and tells everyone Jay is the man in Denver and that Jay is ok with what happened, that he didn't sense anything negative.

Then, McDaniels tries to trade Cutler, for whatever reason, but 'claims' he didn't.

Everything after that is speculation as to who said what, so again, which 'facts' are you hanging you hat on?

[Tempus Fugit]

Nice timeline, but I don't see how that tells us with 'facts' exactly what happened.

I never claimed it did. I simply responded to your assertion:

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=649206&postcount=50

[Tned]

I never claimed it did. I simply responded to your assertion:


Really?


It seems pretty clear that McDaniels tied his own hands. Meaning, he pushed it to the brink, then said, "I have no choice."

Cutler acted sophomorish, no question about that, but McDaniels created the fiasco.

The said part is what looked like awesome value for Cutler is now questionable, since we got Orton, Ayers, Smith and half of a blocking tight end. That means that two of these guys (orton, ayers or smith) are going to have to be perennial pro-bowlers, and/or HOF'rs for this to not look like a major debacle.


It seems nothing of the kind to me, based upon the actual things we know happened (based upon corroboration). Then again, I like facts over speculation, and I don't trust any reporter's account when they can't get verification.

[Tempus Fugit]

So, let me see if I get this. Shanahan is fired. Bowlen calls Cutler (something he later 'forgets' he did) and tells everyone Jay is the man in Denver and that Jay is ok with what happened, that he didn't sense anything negative.

Then, McDaniels tries to trade Cutler, for whatever reason, but 'claims' he didn't.

Everything after that is speculation as to who said what, so again, which 'facts' are you hanging you hat on?

You are using speculation as facts again. It's really not a fair approach to take. McDaniels 'claims' (using your verbage) that others tried to make the trades, not him. He 'admits' to taking the calls. Belichick has stated that he never got a call with any trade offer from Denver.

Just as an example of the reporting, here's a mailbag answer by Paige:


McDaniels loves Cassel and saw a chance to get him. The word I heard from somebody I'd trust with my ATM password was that New England shopped Cassel around, and Denver was on the list. McDaniels said no, then rethought the possibility. Detroit and Tampa Bay came into the mix, and Tampa Bay really wanted Cutler. Cassel's salary-cap number is way higher than Jay's. The Bucs would offer two high draft picks to New England, they would get Cutler, and Denver would get Cassel.

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_11892066

Notice who initiated the situation, according to Paige.

Here's some stuff about Belichick's take on the situation:


If the Denver Broncos were sure they wanted Matt Cassel to replace Jay Cutler as their starting quarterback, they didn't show it, according to the Boston Globe.

The Globe, qouting New England Patriots head coach Bill Belichick, reported the Broncos were not as aggressive in their pursuit of Cassel as some media reports suggested.

"They never made that offer to me," Belichick said when asked during an interview on Boston radio station WEEI whether the Broncos had offered first- and third-round picks for Cassel.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/rumors/post/Belichick-Broncos-weren-t-aggressive-in-pursuit?urn=nfl,149392


Patriots coach Bill Belichick said he never received an offer of a first-round pick for Matt Cassel and consummated a trade that sent the quarterback to the Chiefs "because there really wasn't any interest" among other teams....."The bottom line is it was never really there, presented," Belichick said. "It was like, 'yeah, maybe this could happen,' but it was never presented like here's a firm offer."

http://content.usatoday.com/topics/post/People/Sports+Coaches,+Team+Owners,+Execs,+Officials/NFL/Bill+Belichick/64393017.blog/1

The biggest problem in all of this, from a Broncofandom perspective, is that far too many people who should be Broncos fans have behaved as if they were Cutler fans, and have believe his uncorroborated side of the story despite the reality that the side of the story with actual corroboration has pretty much always been the Broncos front office and McDaniels.

[Tned]

You are using speculation as facts again. It's really not a fair approach to take. McDaniels 'claims' (using your verbage) that others tried to make the trades, not him. He 'admits' to taking the calls. Belichick has stated that he never got a call with any trade offer from Denver.

Just as an example of the reporting, here's a mailbag answer by Paige:



http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_11892066

Notice who initiated the situation, according to Paige.

Here's some stuff about Belichick's take on the situation:



http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/rumors/post/Belichick-Broncos-weren-t-aggressive-in-pursuit?urn=nfl,149392



http://content.usatoday.com/topics/post/People/Sports+Coaches,+Team+Owners,+Execs,+Officials/NFL/Bill+Belichick/64393017.blog/1

The biggest problem in all of this, from a Broncofandom perspective, is that far too many people who should be Broncos fans have behaved as if they were Cutler fans, and have believe his uncorroborated side of the story despite the reality that the side of the story with actual corroboration has pretty much always been the Broncos front office and McDaniels.

Earlier, you said you don't rely on reporters, not now you are using them to make your case? :confused: It doesn't seem like it can go both ways.

McDaniels, nor any reporter, has claimed that there were direct discussions between Denver and New England. The reports were of a three way deal, so in that scenario, it wouldn't be McDaniels calling New England, but instead Detroit, Tampa, Minn, etc.

Unlike some, I place blame on Jay and Josh. Josh obviously screwed up, because coming in and driving off a young QB is pretty much unprecedented in the NFL, so regardless of who called who, he failed. He showed that he was a young, rookie head coach.

To place the blame only on Jay, is pure speculation, which you said shouldn't be done. However, the problem is that we don't have all the facts, and never will, so it is ALL speculation.

[Tempus Fugit]

Really?

Read what I wrote and compare it to what you were claiming:

You:

"It seems pretty clear that McDaniels tied his own hands. Meaning, he pushed it to the brink, then said, "I have no choice.""

Me:

"It seems nothing of the kind to me, based upon the actual things we know happened (based upon corroboration). "

You:

"I don't see how that tells us with 'facts' exactly what happened. "

You took my disagreeing with your assertion that it was "pretty clear" based upon what actually was known and corroborated, and equated that disagreement with my claiming I had all the facts of "exactly what happened" I didn't claim to have every fact. Hell, in one of my numbered facts, I pointed out


The question of who initiated such talks remains a point of contention

[Tned]

Read what I wrote and compare it to what you were claiming:

You:

"It seems pretty clear that McDaniels tied his own hands. Meaning, he pushed it to the brink, then said, "I have no choice.""

Me:

"It seems nothing of the kind to me, based upon the actual things we know happened (based upon corroboration). "

You:

"I don't see how that tells us with 'facts' exactly what happened. "

You took my disagreeing with your assertion that it was "pretty clear" based upon what actually was known and corroborated, and equated that disagreement with my claiming I had all the facts of "exactly what happened" I didn't claim to have every fact. Hell, in one of my numbered facts, I pointed out

It has nothing to do with who initiated the talks. As the head coach, he needs to 'manage' the situation to not let it reach this point.

McDaniels ego wouldn't even allow him to say, "Jay isn't going to be traded" for a week or two after it all blew up, and even then, he only repeated the one liner that the Broncos released the day before.

When interviewed, he 'carefully' worded his statements and wouldn't just say, "Jay isn't being traded."

Contrast that with what I heard from the Panther's GM on Tuesday on Sirius Radio. We are not trading Peppers. Peppers likes us, we like him, we expect him to be on our team next year and are counting on him. We will get a deal worked out. We have great respect for Julius, and think he feels the same about the Panther's organization.

Now, they might trade him next week, but the GM said what he is supposed to say, to make sure the situation doesn't get inflamed.

Again, it goes back to McDaniels being a rookie coach with a big ego (nobody that has seen interviews or press conferences can really argue the ego aspect). He needed to put his ego aside and do whatever it took to calm the situation, even if he had to say, "Jay, I ****** up, I got caught up in the thoughts of getting my guy" and in the media, saying, "hey, I took some calls, because I worked with Matt. In hindsight, I think I got caught up in the moment, but the main reason I came to Denver was the chance to work with a young QB like Jay, and that hasn't changed. Jay will not be traded, period."

The truth is irrelevant, it is managing the situation, and McDaniels' ego or inexperience clearly was a problem here.

As I have said, it doesn't excuse Jay's immature attitude or not taking the calls, etc., as I have stated, but to not put blame on McDaniels as well, is pretty foolish.

[Tempus Fugit]

Earlier, you said you don't rely on reporters, not now you are using them to make your case? :confused: It doesn't seem like it can go both ways.

McDaniels, nor any reporter, has claimed that there were direct discussions between Denver and New England. The reports were of a three way deal, so in that scenario, it wouldn't be McDaniels calling New England, but instead Detroit, Tampa, Minn, etc.

Unlike some, I place blame on Jay and Josh. Josh obviously screwed up, because coming in and driving off a young QB is pretty much unprecedented in the NFL, so regardless of who called who, he failed. He showed that he was a young, rookie head coach.

To place the blame only on Jay, is pure speculation, which you said shouldn't be done. However, the problem is that we don't have all the facts, and never will, so it is ALL speculation.

Ok, if you're not going to be fair about your responses, this is just going to have to end, because I'm not going to violate that warning thing that I got a couple days back.

1.) "I don't trust any reporter's account when they can't get verification." is NOT the same as "I don't rely on reporters."

2.) I didn't place blame. The closest I came was to note who had been caught lying to date, and I gave evidence of such lies.

3.) This line: "Josh obviously screwed up, because coming in and driving off a young QB is pretty much unprecedented in the NFL, so regardless of who called who, he failed." ignores so many possible realities that it's just not anything approaching a worthwhile argument.

4.) It's not ALL speculation. I gave several facts, with verifications.

5.) In a 3-way deal, it's certainly possible that Denver could have been the team initiating the call. It would not have to be "Detroit, Tampa, Minn, etc. "

[Tned]

Ok, if you're not going to be fair about your responses, this is just going to have to end, because I'm not going to violate that warning thing that I got a couple days back.

1.) "I don't trust any reporter's account when they can't get verification." is NOT the same as "I don't rely on reporters."

2.) I didn't place blame. The closest I came was to note who had been caught lying to date, and I gave evidence of such lies.

3.) This line: "Josh obviously screwed up, because coming in and driving off a young QB is pretty much unprecedented in the NFL, so regardless of who called who, he failed." ignores so many possible realities that it's just not anything approaching a worthwhile argument.

4.) It's not ALL speculation. I gave several facts, with verifications.

5.) In a 3-way deal, it's certainly possible that Denver could have been the team initiating the call. It would not have to be "Detroit, Tampa, Minn, etc. "

Again, none of that is proof, it is all taking bits and pieces and 'speculating', which is the same thing that 'everyone' is doing.

However, I am perfectly fine with agreeing to disagree on the fact that I believe Jay and Josh both screwed up on this one.

[Tempus Fugit]

It has nothing to do with who initiated the talks. As the head coach, he needs to 'manage' the situation to not let it reach this point.

McDaniels ego wouldn't even allow him to say, "Jay isn't going to be traded" for a week or two after it all blew up, and even then, he only repeated the one liner that the Broncos released the day before.

When interviewed, he 'carefully' worded his statements and wouldn't just say, "Jay isn't being traded."

Contrast that with what I heard from the Panther's GM on Tuesday on Sirius Radio. We are not trading Peppers. Peppers likes us, we like him, we expect him to be on our team next year and are counting on him. We will get a deal worked out. We have great respect for Julius, and think he feels the same about the Panther's organization.

Now, they might trade him next week, but the GM said what he is supposed to say, to make sure the situation doesn't get inflamed.

Again, it goes back to McDaniels being a rookie coach with a big ego (nobody that has seen interviews or press conferences can really argue the ego aspect). He needed to put his ego aside and do whatever it took to calm the situation, even if he had to say, "Jay, I ****** up, I got caught up in the thoughts of getting my guy" and in the media, saying, "hey, I took some calls, because I worked with Matt. In hindsight, I think I got caught up in the moment, but the main reason I came to Denver was the chance to work with a young QB like Jay, and that hasn't changed. Jay will not be traded, period."

The truth is irrelevant, it is managing the situation, and McDaniels' ego or inexperience clearly was a problem here.

As I have said, it doesn't excuse Jay's immature attitude or not taking the calls, etc., as I have stated, but to not put blame on McDaniels as well, is pretty foolish.

Ok, you don't seem to have any intention of taking a rational approach to this, so I'm done with this. I'm not going to get dragged into a pissing match after that message.

[Tned]

Ok, you don't seem to have any intention of taking a rational approach to this, so I'm done with this. I'm not going to get dragged into a pissing match after that message.

Because I don't agree with you, I'm not taking a rationale approach? Ok. :confused:

As I said, I am fine with agreeing to disagree on this subject.

[Tempus Fugit]

Because I don't agree with you, I'm not taking a rationale approach? Ok. :confused:

As I said, I am fine with agreeing to disagree on this subject.

Agreement has nothing to do with it. Your arguments on this issue aren't rational:

"Again, none of that is proof, it is all taking bits and pieces and 'speculating', which is the same thing that 'everyone' is doing."

I never claimed any final proof, I conceded there were points of contention, and none of what I put in was uncorroborated "speculation" by any involved party.

[Tned]

Agreement has nothing to do with it. Your arguments on this issue aren't rational.

Ok, first you say you are done and I agree to disagree, then you claim I am irrational. How, prey tell, is my opinion irrational?

[Tempus Fugit]

Ok, first you say you are done and I agree to disagree, then you claim I am irrational. How, prey tell, is my opinion irrational?

I claimed your arguments on this issue weren't rational. It's not the same thing. You do seem to have shown a tendency, on this thread, to take what I'm saying and claim it actually said something else, but that's not the same thing.

[Ravage!!!]

pfff.. they aren't rational because they don't see a certain direction.


Personally.. I put all the blame on the young rookie coach for the situation, and honestly don't care when someone tries to tell me I'm wrong because there is no 'proof'.... I know enough to certainly say " beyond reasonable doubt"... and thats good enough to hang someone. :beer:

[Watchthemiddle]

pfff.. they aren't rational because they don't see a certain direction.


Personally.. I put all the blame on the young immature QB for the situation, and honestly don't care when someone tries to tell me I'm wrong because there is plenty of 'proof'.... I know enough to certainly say " beyond reasonable doubt"... and thats good enough to hang someone. :beer:

[Tempus Fugit]

pfff.. they aren't rational because they don't see a certain direction.


Personally.. I put all the blame on the young rookie coach for the situation, and honestly don't care when someone tries to tell me I'm wrong because there is no 'proof'.... I know enough to certainly say " beyond reasonable doubt"... and thats good enough to hang someone. :beer:

They aren't rational when they make claims that are counter to reality.

As for how you allay blame, that's on you.

[Tned]

Agreement has nothing to do with it. Your arguments on this issue aren't rational:

"Again, none of that is proof, it is all taking bits and pieces and 'speculating', which is the same thing that 'everyone' is doing."

I never claimed any final proof, I conceded there were points of contention, and none of what I put in was uncorroborated "speculation" by any involved party.

Ok, I'll agree to disagree with you on a second point, whether or not I am irrational. Rather than to get into a back and forth personal discussion, we might as well just drop it, like you indicated you were going to do several posts ago.

[Tempus Fugit]

Ok, I'll agree to disagree with you on a second point, whether or not I am irrational. Rather than to get into a back and forth personal discussion, we might as well just drop it, like you indicated you were going to do several posts ago.

But you keep adding things that I've never said. I have not claimed that you were irrational. I said you were using irrational arguments. There's a difference. I don't know you personally. I do, however, give you the benefit of the doubt as to your rationality. That doesn't mean that everything you say or do will be rational. Repeatedly claiming I'm saying "a" when I'm clearly saying "b" is not rational if you don't know me well enough to know whether or not I'm lying.

I'd love to drop it, but you keep claiming that I'm calling you irrational, and I'm having to point out that I'm not.

[honz]

I wish Cutler was more like Jason Campbell. :(

[horsepig]

Come on Honz, you and I both know that Smith is the one 'tied' to Cutler. McDaniels has stated that the reason he had no problem making the 'highly questioned' trade of a first rounder for Smith, was because he had the pick from Chicago. So, while technically they used the Broncos 'natural' pick they only reason that Smith was taken with a first round pick, was because of the Cutler trade.

What do you think about Bobby Beathard T? He said the Broncos pick of Smith was like the proverbial bird in the hand deal, i. e., take the money and run and worry about next year aboput a year from now.

[Tned]

But you keep adding things that I've never said. I have not claimed that you were irrational. I said you were using irrational arguments. There's a difference. I don't know you personally. I do, however, give you the benefit of the doubt as to your rationality. That doesn't mean that everything you say or do will be rational. Repeatedly claiming I'm saying "a" when I'm clearly saying "b" is not rational if you don't know me well enough to know whether or not I'm lying.

I'd love to drop it, but you keep claiming that I'm calling you irrational, and I'm having to point out that I'm not.

Come on, that's semantics. If you want to state an opposing viewpoint to my opinion, great, but your approach is to simply say I'm not being rational (i.e. irrational) in the presentation of my opinions. Seems pretty judgemental to me, in your attempt to discredit someone that is being judgemental of Josh and Jay. So, it is ok for 'you' to be judgemental of me, but not me of Jay and Josh? :confused:

[Tned]

What do you think about Bobby Beathard T? He said the Broncos pick of Smith was like the proverbial bird in the hand deal, i. e., take the money and run and worry about next year aboput a year from now.

I'm not an NCAA guy, so I know the name, but don't really know much about Beathard. As a Broncos' fan, I hope he is right. I would love for a year or two for now all of us to say, "damn, Josh was a genius trading that first round pick away."

As I have said a bunch of times, only time will tell.

[MOtorboat]

Come on, that's semantics. If you want to state an opposing viewpoint to my opinion, great, but your approach is to simply say I'm not being rational (i.e. irrational) in the presentation of my opinions. Seems pretty judgemental to me, in your attempt to discredit someone that is being judgemental of Josh and Jay. So, it is ok for 'you' to be judgemental of me, but not me of Jay and Josh? :confused:

The presentation of your opinions is not what he's criticizing. It's your opinion that he's criticizing.

Semantics, no?

[MOtorboat]

If we allow judgment of one human being we should allow the judgment of another...unless, of course, he's a member of this message board, then they aren't free game.

[Lonestar]

Originally Posted by Tned
It seems pretty clear that McDaniels tied his own hands. Meaning, he pushed it to the brink, then said, "I have no choice."

Cutler acted sophomorish, no question about that, but McDaniels created the fiasco.

The said part is what looked like awesome value for Cutler is now questionable, since we got Orton, Ayers, Smith and half of a blocking tight end. That means that two of these guys (orton, ayers or smith) are going to have to be perennial pro-bowlers, and/or HOF'rs for this to not look like a major debacle.


:
Originally Posted by Jrwiz
Up until cutler and Clady I hardly think that MOST of mikes 1st rounders could be pro bowlers or for that matter HOF types.

For most of them they were starters in their 2-4th years and even then they were a joke..

I'm not understanding why Josh is being held to a higher standard..



You see my response was the whole context of the comment was about Tned saying "two of these guys (Orton, ayers or smith) are going to have to be perennial pro-bowlers, and/or HOFers "


Broncos 1st round picks under Shanahan:

1996: John Mobley... yeah, he was joke. :tsk:
1997: Trevor Pryce... yeah, complete bust. What was Shanny thinking? :tsk:
1998: Marcus Nash (that was a true bust)
1999: Al Wilson... total waste of a pick here. :rolleyes:
2000: Deltha O'Neal... yeah, totally worthless. Good thing the Bengals took him off our hands.
2001: Willie Middlebrooks (no question, a bad pick)
2002: Ashley Lelie.... yeah, this shows what happens when you let the owner do the drafting.
2003: George Foster... this was a WTF pick from the get-go.
2004: D.J. Williams... total trash, a complete bust. :tsk:
2006: Jay Cutler... whining crybaby loser drunk Shanny traded up to get. :rolleyes:
2007: Jarvis Moss... can't stay out of the trainer's room.
2008: Ryan Clady... complete bust. :tsk:

Yeah, JR. I see what you mean. Everything Shanny drafted went totally in the toilet. Why, compared to this McDiapers is just pure genius. :beer:



Yes I see we had 3 LB's, price, Clady and Jay that were decent choices and were consistent pro bowl caliber.. but the rest were and are busts..

for that manner most were not renewed with a second contract.. Mobley because of injury but price and Wilson were the only ones IIRC that were here long enough to get a second contract.. Correct me if I'm wrong..

If this is your standard fine it is not mine.. Nor is the acceptable way to build your team via the draft.. to win consistently..

[Ravage!!!]

I wish Cutler was more like Jason Campbell. :(

COnsidering the Redskins keep trying to find a way to trade Campbell off and find another QB ( including Cutler) ... I think the Redskins wish Campbell was more like Cutler

[Watchthemiddle]

COnsidering the Redskins keep trying to find a way to trade Campbell off and find another QB ( including Cutler) ... I think the Redskins wish Campbell was more like Cutler

I have noticed Campbell didn't fly off the deep end and whine about it....

Actually, not only that but didn't follow up with a demand to be traded.

[topscribe]

You see my response was the whole context of the comment was about Tned saying "two of these guys (Orton, ayers or smith) are going to have to be perennial pro-bowlers, and/or HOFers "





Yes I see we had 3 LB's, price, Clady and Jay that were decent choices and were consistent pro bowl caliber.. but the rest were and are busts..

for that manner most were not renewed with a second contract.. Mobley because of injury but price and Wilson were the only ones IIRC that were here long enough to get a second contract.. Correct me if I'm wrong..

If this is your standard fine it is not mine.. Nor is the acceptable way to build your team via the draft.. to win consistently..

To be fair, JR, while you did indirectly refer to them, Pryce was with the
Broncos for nine years, and D.J. is still with them . . .

-----

[FanInAZ]

Hell for all we know...Simms could beat out Orton for the starting role.....:eek:

Anyone think of that? :confused:

http://www.nfl.com/players/chrissimms/profile?id=SIM339462

You don't want Simms as our starter.

[Lonestar]

To be fair, JR, while you did indirectly refer to them, Pryce was with the
Broncos for nine years, and D.J. is still with them . . .

-----

but the context was everyone referring to Josh's first draft everyone had to be a pro bowl potential HOF player and scomparing them to mikes #1's.

And yes I mention that only a couple have gotten a second contract..

[Ravage!!!]

I have noticed Campbell didn't fly off the deep end and whine about it....

Actually, not only that but didn't follow up with a demand to be traded.

THat has nothing to do with what I said.

Considering that the Redskins have tried to trade for someone else twice (Cutler being the first of those), and tried to move up to get Sanchez... I would say, again, that the Redskins wish that Campbell was more like Cutler.

[Ravage!!!]

but the context was everyone referring to Josh's first draft everyone had to be a pro bowl potential HOF player and scomparing them to mikes #1's.

And yes I mention that only a couple have gotten a second contract..

you are exaggerating. I do believe you once stated that you thought ANY WR drafted SHOULD do better than some un-drafted free agent, didn't you? I know you did.

That being said, I would think that people who have high expectations of first round picks (as we all know you do) would have the same HIGh expectations of McDaniels draft choices and not compare the expectations to that of a coach that is no longer here.

After all, we've moved forward. We've moved on. We fired the past coach because of his GM'ing.... right? Thus, people's high expectations of high round picks are SUPPOSED to be high. I know I've heard you say that you EXPECT first round picks to be starters, and Pro-bowlers.... at least when Shanahan was drafting (or dafting) they were.

So why should others have lower expectations of McDaniel's picks?

[Watchthemiddle]

THat has nothing to do with what I said.

Considering that the Redskins have tried to trade for someone else twice (Cutler being the first of those), and tried to move up to get Sanchez... I would say, again, that the Redskins wish that Campbell was more like Cutler.

I would disagree. If Campbell was more like Cutler, than he would have whined about the trade talks and then demanded a trade. I doubt they wish he was like Cutler.

And.....if the Redskins really wanted Cutler, don't you think they ( Dan Snyder ) would have done everything in their power to get him?

[Tned]

but the context was everyone referring to Josh's first draft everyone had to be a pro bowl potential HOF player and scomparing them to mikes #1's.

And yes I mention that only a couple have gotten a second contract..

In my post that Top quoted, I said we need two of them to be perennial pro-bowlers, because they were directly tied to Cutler (a pro-bowler), who he traded.

[honz]

THat has nothing to do with what I said.

Considering that the Redskins have tried to trade for someone else twice (Cutler being the first of those), and tried to move up to get Sanchez... I would say, again, that the Redskins wish that Campbell was more like Cutler.

I was talking about the whining and crying in the first place. Obviously Cutler is a better player at this point in their careers.

[Ravage!!!]

I would disagree. If Campbell was more like Cutler, than he would have whined about the trade talks and then demanded a trade. I doubt they wish he was like Cutler.

And.....if the Redskins really wanted Cutler, don't you think they ( Dan Snyder ) would have done everything in their power to get him?

It was VERY VERY well reported and documented than Snyder and the Redskins were trying to trade for Jay. That is not a secret, that is not rumor, that is not something being made up. The difference is, they only had Campbell to offer as a QB, and McDaniels preferred Orton.

So you can doubt all you want..... wouldn't seem to make sense since they tried to get him in place of Campbell.

[Watchthemiddle]

It was VERY VERY well reported and documented than Snyder and the Redskins were trying to trade for Jay. That is not a secret, that is not rumor, that is not something being made up. The difference is, they only had Campbell to offer as a QB, and McDaniels preferred Orton.

So you can doubt all you want..... wouldn't seem to make sense since they tried to get him in place of Campbell.

Oh I am not doubting at all. I know they tried, but not hard enough. Cutler is a Bear now.

[Ravage!!!]

I have noticed Campbell didn't fly off the deep end and whine about it....

Actually, not only that but didn't follow up with a demand to be traded.

Kinda interesting..... he did have the benefit of seeing the Cutler 'drama' unfold, but here is an article right after the draft... which states he would have asked to be traded.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20090428_Source__Redskins__interest_in_Sanchez_mif fs_Campbell.html

Source: Redskins' interest in Sanchez miffs Campbell

Daily News Wire Services

Washington starting quarterback Jason Campbell was not happy that the Redskins were thinking about drafting Southern California QB Mark Sanchez in the first round.

"It definitely was a shock," Campbell said yesterday, "when I started hearing Sanchez talk."

Had the Redskins drafted Sanchez, Campbell would have asked for a trade, said a person familiar with the situation who requested anonymity.

Asked whether that was so, Campbell said, "No comment."

Sanchez ended up being drafted by the New York Jets.

For now, Campbell is still with the Redskins, having survived the team's second attempt to acquire someone else.

Just 3 weeks earlier, the Redskins tried to trade for Denver Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler. When the deal fell through, there was a clear-the-air meeting between Campbell, owner Dan Snyder, front office chief Vinny Cerrato and coach Jim Zorn. Afterward, Cerrato announced: "We are all on the same page and we are moving forward."

But Sanchez wasn't on that particular page, at least not in Campbell's mind.

"It's an awkward situation," Campbell answered, "just because after the Cutler deal, we did sit down and talk - and then the Sanchez talk came up."

Last year, in his first year running a West Coast offense under Zorn, Campbell had 13 touchdown passes and six interceptions, while guiding the Redskins to an 8-8 season.

Campbell is entering the final year of his rookie contract, but his agent, Joel Segal, said there had been no recent movement in talks about an extension.

In other news, the Redskins agreed to terms with Missouri quarterback Chase Daniel, a former Heisman Trophy finalist who wasn't drafted. Daniel is expected to join the Redskins for minicamp this weekend. He will likely enter training camp in July battling Colt Brennan for the third-string job behind Campbell and backup Todd Collins.

[Ravage!!!]

Oh I am not doubting at all. I know they tried, but not hard enough. Cutler is a Bear now.

yeah.. well... when all you have to offer up is Campbell, what can you do?

[Watchthemiddle]

yeah.. well... when all you have to offer up is Campbell, what can you do?

Draft picks.

I am glad we didn't though....Campbell is not a very good QB. Not much for Josh to work with IMO.

[honz]

If they drafted a first round QB, that obviously means he has no future with the team...I wouldn't blame him for wanting to be traded. Cutler was still our starting QB and did not have a replacement on the back burner. Now that Campbell hasn't been replaced, he is going about his business and is going to be playing football for the Redskins. Campbell handled the situation much much better than Cutler did.

[Watchthemiddle]

If they drafted a first round QB, that obviously means he has no future with the team...I wouldn't blame him for wanting to be traded. Cutler was still our starting QB and did not have a replacement on the back burner. Now that Campbell hasn't been replaced, he is going about his business and is going to be playing football for the Redskins. Campbell handled the situation much much better than Cutler did.

Thats the point I was trying to make...you just said it better. :beer:

[Ravage!!!]

Draft picks.

I am glad we didn't though....Campbell is not a very good QB. Not much for Josh to work with IMO.

Not much for anyone to work with.... I think thats why the Redskins have been doing their best to trade him away, or draft someone new for sure.

[Ravage!!!]

If they drafted a first round QB, that obviously means he has no future with the team...I wouldn't blame him for wanting to be traded.


Hmmmm.. thats interesting. I guess trying to trade you away to a team tells you you are wanted and have a future for the team.

Difference in their situations??? When the reports came out that Campbell was on the trading block for Cutler... the coach called him and talked with him, RIGHT THEN. Then they sat with the owner (as Campbell pointed out). If he wasn't bothered, why would he have asked to be traded over a simple draft pick?

Either way. I'm very confident that both Josh and Jay could have handled things better.

[Watchthemiddle]

Hmmmm.. thats interesting. I guess trying to trade you away to a team tells you you are wanted and have a future for the team.

Difference in their situations??? When the reports came out that Campbell was on the trading block for Cutler... the coach called him and talked with him, RIGHT THEN. Then they sat with the owner (as Campbell pointed out). If he wasn't bothered, why would he have asked to be traded over a simple draft pick?

Either way. I'm very confident that both Josh and Jay could have handled things better.[/QUOTE]

WOW....so Campbell answered his phone? :laugh:

[omac]

Hmmmm.. thats interesting. I guess trying to trade you away to a team tells you you are wanted and have a future for the team.

Difference in their situations??? When the reports came out that Campbell was on the trading block for Cutler... the coach called him and talked with him, RIGHT THEN. Then they sat with the owner (as Campbell pointed out). If he wasn't bothered, why would he have asked to be traded over a simple draft pick?

Either way. I'm very confident that both Josh and Jay could have handled things better.

Yup, 2 QBs in very different situations. While one knows that his team doesn't value him enough to even give him a contract extension in his last contract season, and no other teams are very interested in trading for him, the other is a highly sought after QB who other teams would pay dearly to have on their roster. But, as the article shows, even the former has his limits.

It's like one guy doesn't mind if his girlfriend keeps looking for a better boyfriend, while the other would have none of it and would rather take a girl who wouldn't do that stuff to him. Still, the former guy eventually has his limits, grows a spine and says enough is enough. :D

On handling it both better, both got what they wanted. Neither wanted to work with the other, and because of this, both wanted Jay traded. It was ugly to watch, but McDaniels gets the team he wants, and Jay gets traded to a team that wants him. Fair deal.

[OrangeHoof]

If this is your standard fine it is not mine.. Nor is the acceptable way to build your team via the draft.. to win consistently..

Did Shanahan piss in your cereal bowl one day when you were a child? I really don't understand your hatred for the man. You got to play the role of contrarian and cheerleaded for Shanahan's dismissal. Well, you got what you wanted, Jack. So now you better be ready to live with what you asked for.

All you are doing is showing everyone how unreasonable you are with anything Shanahan has ever done. Given the Broncos were rarely picking in the top half of the first round, it is understandable that not every player Denver drafted in the first round was destined for the Hall of Fame. It's YOU who have the unreasonable standard.

You may not realize this but Mike Shanahan had a .616 winning percentage during 14 seasons as head coach in Denver (with a .615 winning percentage in 13 postseason games), where he had only two losing seasons. His team has finished no worse than second in the AFC West every year since 2001.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/ShanMi0.htm

You want consistent? I'd say that's a HELL of a consistent record and you won't find many coaches in the history of the NFL who have done better.

But, of course, facts are pointless to you because all you have to argue with is blind hatred. It's obvious because anytime facts like these are presented, you just piss on them because they don't agree with your all-consuming hatred of Mike Shanahan.

So let it go, dude. It's history now.

And enjoy your 4-12 record this year without your favorite scapegoat. If anyone deserves it, you certainly do.

[Nature Boy]

McDaniels' hands were tied here. When you insult the owner, you deserve to go. I'm tired of talking about it.

Nice take on Orton and I don't think he'll resemble the Bears QB we once knew. Denver won with Jake Plummer a few years ago, who was one mistake-prone QB. All he has to do is be efficient and not make mistakes... like endzone INTs. I hope Brandstater learns from him.


You forget, we don't have Mike Shanahan no more so everything is different.

.

[Scarface]

So I ran into a HUUUUGE and very football savvy Bears fan the other day that I haven't talked to since before the whole Cutler fiasco.
I asked him what he thought about Cutler being a Bear. He couldn't have been more happy! We both came to the conclusion that he has no recivers to throw to, but that Olsen would have like 80 catches for 1000 yards next season, and that we would both pick the TE up in our fantasy leagues. But he was stoked about Cutty, and agreed with me that McDaniels was an idiot to have traded him. He also thought McDaniels draft was horrid. I agreed, but then reminded him the Bears draft wasn't so hot either. He agreed.
He also said that the trade instantly made Chicago a Super Bowl contender. I said I'll believe it if he picked up a decent receiver or 2, and not to expect 4000 yards and 40 TD passes quite yet.

On the other hand, I asked him if Denver had a good QB in Orton. He told me the guy would fit in perfectly in Denver and that he was a very good QB. He said he was smarter than his dumb looking face and neck beard suggested, and that he would have made the pro bowl last season if not for his injury. He reiterated that the trade benefited both teams perfectly, and that Orton would do well in Denver.

I definitely don't believe it worked out perfectly for us. We lost a young franchise QB. As for the Bears receivers we'll all of a sudden notice that they've improved once Cutler is under center. Earl Bennet will start producing. Olson will put up his best stats yet. Running lanes won't be as congested for Forte....plus he's a good receiver out of the backfield. And at the end of the day their offense won't be forced to score TD's on every single drive because their defense will be decent at worst.

[atwater27]

I definitely don't believe it worked out perfectly for us. We lost a young franchise QB. As for the Bears receivers we'll all of a sudden notice that they've improved once Cutler is under center. Earl Bennet will start producing. Olson will put up his best stats yet. Running lanes won't be as congested for Forte....plus he's a good receiver out of the backfield. And at the end of the day their offense won't be forced to score TD's on every single drive because their defense will be decent at worst.

I told him I am bitter about the whole thing and that the Bears definitely won out on the deal, especially after what McD did with the picks. I just think he was trying to be nice and show some sympathy for a guy who's team had gone to shit.

[ktrain]

So I ran into a HUUUUGE and very football savvy Bears fan the other day that I haven't talked to since before the whole Cutler fiasco.
I asked him what he thought about Cutler being a Bear........

Well I work in ChiTown, and have been telling all the Cutler coolaid drinkers what a POS Jay George is.....needless to say they all disagree with me

[Lonestar]

Well I work in ChiTown, and have been telling all the Cutler coolaid drinkers what a POS Jay George is.....needless to say they all disagree with me


now that is a new one.. glad to hear some one else feels the same way as some do..

He may be the best thing since sliced bread there and he just might be good and for bear fans that will be great as they have been QB starved for 20+ years..

So mediocre over 3 years for us maybe super star for them..

[hotcarl]

now that is a new one.. glad to hear some one else feels the same way as some do..

He may be the best thing since sliced bread there and he just might be good and for bear fans that will be great as they have been QB starved for 20+ years..

So mediocre over 3 years for us maybe super star for them..

he seems good actually

but whatever i guess you think he sucks

he was never in a position to win, much like you

[Ravage!!!]

mediocre :laugh:

[Lonestar]

he seems good actually

but whatever i guess you think he sucks

he was never in a position to win, much like you

He was average to coin a term over the past three years.. If one can average something like a QB out.. he had one lousy partial year and decent/good one in 2007 and then a great one if all you do is consider yards.. as far as turnovers and bad throws I'd say below that mythical "Average" term used by a few here..

add them all together and it would be about average if you can quantify it.. I personally can't, but some seem to think they can..

I thought jay had potential so far he has not reached it..

He had a great arm and a ego mind that could not allow him to throw to the open man if he thought he could complete the long ball.. basically the same malady that Jeff George had.. his balls are to big to fit into his jock strap. his head will not fit correctly inside the helmet..

Actually he was in the position to win several times last year and the team suck up a a big one. I will not go down that road with you.. the QB gets the wins and he also gets the losses regardless of which team they are on..

hope that helps define my idea on jay.. I wish him well in CHICAGO after next year..

[Broncolingus]

McDaniels' hands were tied here. When you insult the owner, you deserve to go. I'm tired of talking about it.

Nice take on Orton and I don't think he'll resemble the Bears QB we once knew. Denver won with Jake Plummer a few years ago, who was one mistake-prone QB. All he has to do is be efficient and not make mistakes... like endzone INTs. I hope Brandstater learns from him.

GP bud...:salute:

Let's not forget the role ******* - ahem, I mean 'Bus' Cook played in all of this...

[T.K.O.]

it would be awesome if jay throws for 4800+ yds and 32 td's and takes the bears to the playoffs!.......then throws 3 picks and fumbles away the game winning 4th down attemp at the 2 yd line!
yeah ...that would be awesome.....:D

[Tned]

it would be awesome if jay throws for 4800+ yds and 32 td's and takes the bears to the playoffs!.......then throws 3 picks and fumbles away the game winning 4th down attemp at the 2 yd line!
yeah ...that would be awesome.....:D

Not really, because then our draft pick would be number 31 next year.

[topscribe]

I definitely don't believe it worked out perfectly for us. We lost a young franchise QB. As for the Bears receivers we'll all of a sudden notice that they've improved once Cutler is under center. Earl Bennet will start producing. Olson will put up his best stats yet. Running lanes won't be as congested for Forte....plus he's a good receiver out of the backfield. And at the end of the day their offense won't be forced to score TD's on every single drive because their defense will be decent at worst.

If their red zone offense performs as the Broncos' did last year, you can rest
assured they won't be scoring TDs on every single drive . . .

-----

[T.K.O.]

JAY CUTLER HOME REPLICA JERSEY
Item SKU # 5665

Status - In Stock
Expected Ship Date - 24-48 hours


Price - $80.00

Be one of the first around to wear this Chicago Bears Jay Cutler replica team color jersey by Reebok®. It's made with breathable, quick-drying mesh and dazzle fabric for long-lasting comfort and durability(probably lasts longer than jay will in chicago). The jersey is designed with screen-printed player and team graphics on the chest, back, sleeves, and shoulders(and comes with a "handy tissue pocket" so you can cry along with jay on gameday).


Choose a Color:
choose carefully as cutler jerseys are known to run when put through the ringer)
white ( great for any fan or player that surrenders at the 1st sign of adversity)

yellow ( for the turn-coat fans who' followed jay from denver )

green (with envy when orton takes the broncos to the playoffs)

Choose a Size:
ADULT SMALL ADULT MEDIUM ADULT LARGE ADULT XLARGE ADULT XXLARGE ADULT 3XL ADULT 4XL ADULT 5XL (ego)



Quantity:



Ship To:
Myself Other (please specify below)

Enter full name. We'll ask for delivery information at checkout.

[Lonestar]

JAY CUTLER HOME REPLICA JERSEY
Item SKU # 5665

Status - In Stock
Expected Ship Date - 24-48 hours


Price - $80.00

Be one of the first around to wear this Chicago Bears Jay Cutler replica team color jersey by Reebok®. It's made with breathable, quick-drying mesh and dazzle fabric for long-lasting comfort and durability(probably lasts longer than jay will in chicago). The jersey is designed with screen-printed player and team graphics on the chest, back, sleeves, and shoulders(and comes with a "handy tissue pocket" so you can cry along with jay on gameday).

Choose a Color:
choose carefully as cutler jerseys are known to run when put through the ringer)
white ( great for any fan or player that surrenders at the 1st sign of adversity)

yellow ( for the turn-coat fans who' followed jay from denver )

green (with envy when orton takes the broncos to the playoffs)
Choose a Size:
ADULT SMALL ADULT MEDIUM ADULT LARGE ADULT XLARGE ADULT XXLARGE ADULT 3XL ADULT 4XL ADULT 5XL (ego)



Quantity:



Ship To:
Myself Other (please specify below)

Enter full name. We'll ask for delivery information at checkout.


ahahahahahahahaha


great laugh I needed that..

[atwater27]

JAY CUTLER HOME REPLICA JERSEY
Item SKU # 5665

Status - In Stock
Expected Ship Date - 24-48 hours


Price - $80.00

Be one of the first around to wear this Chicago Bears Jay Cutler replica team color jersey by Reebok®. It's made with breathable, quick-drying mesh and dazzle fabric for long-lasting comfort and durability(probably lasts longer than jay will in chicago). The jersey is designed with screen-printed player and team graphics on the chest, back, sleeves, and shoulders(and comes with a "handy tissue pocket" so you can cry along with jay on gameday).


Choose a Color:
choose carefully as cutler jerseys are known to run when put through the ringer)
white ( great for any fan or player that surrenders at the 1st sign of adversity)

yellow ( for the turn-coat fans who' followed jay from denver )

green (with envy when orton takes the broncos to the playoffs)

Choose a Size:
ADULT SMALL ADULT MEDIUM ADULT LARGE ADULT XLARGE ADULT XXLARGE ADULT 3XL ADULT 4XL ADULT 5XL (ego)



Quantity:



Ship To:
Myself Other (please specify below)

Enter full name. We'll ask for delivery information at checkout.

pure gheyness. Coming from a bandwagon Kyle Orton worshipper, even more ghey.

[Cugel]

McDaniels' hands were tied here. When you insult the owner, you deserve to go. I'm tired of talking about it.

Nice take on Orton and I don't think he'll resemble the Bears QB we once knew. Denver won with Jake Plummer a few years ago, who was one mistake-prone QB. All he has to do is be efficient and not make mistakes... like endzone INTs. I hope Brandstater learns from him.

None of that explains WHY McDaniels thought that Jay Cutler for Matt Cassel was a good idea in the first place. In fact that has NO explanation. :coffee:

[MOtorboat]

None of that explains WHY McDaniels thought that Jay Cutler for Matt Cassel was a good idea in the first place. In fact that has NO explanation. :coffee:

Other than the fact that McDaniels said no to it...

:noidea:

When are people going to learn that McDaniels said NO to these trade deals? When are they going to be smart enough to realize that once McDaniels said NO, Cutler is the one who reacted poorly and forced his way out of Denver?

[Ravage!!!]

Other than the fact that McDaniels said no to it...

:noidea:

When are people going to learn that McDaniels said NO to these trade deals? When are they going to be smart enough to realize that once McDaniels said NO, Cutler is the one who reacted poorly and forced his way out of Denver?

He didn't say no!! :laugh:

When are you going to admit and accept that McDaniels WENT for the trade, and didn't purely answer the phones and 'say no'... come on. :lol:

[MOtorboat]

He didn't say no!! :laugh:

When are you going to admit and accept that McDaniels WENT for the trade, and didn't purely answer the phones and 'say no'... come on. :lol:

I'm sorry, I missed where we traded Jay Cutler for Matt Cassell.

Can you show me where McDaniels did that?

[T.K.O.]

pure gheyness. Coming from a bandwagon Kyle Orton worshipper, even more ghey.

there is nothing "bandwagon" about me,or ghey for that matter.
i just support the broncos regardless of who is qb or coach.
its not like we as fans really have any say in the matter so i just go with the flow and hope for the best (rather than pizz and moan about things beyond my control)
i dont "worship orton,i just know he's a good qb that has'nt gotten a fair shake from alot of fans who have already passed judgement on him even though he has started fewer games than the chosen one,and somehow won alot more of them!:D

[roomemp]

None of that explains WHY McDaniels thought that Jay Cutler for Matt Cassel was a good idea in the first place. In fact that has NO explanation. :coffee:

Maybe it was because Jay does not fit McDaniels system. Jay just turns the ball over WAYYYYY to much.....I think everybody can agree on that.

[T.K.O.]

Not really, because then our draft pick would be number 31 next year.

i said playoffs,not superbowl.....i,m talkin one and done in the wildcard round

[Ravage!!!]

Maybe it was because Jay does not fit McDaniels system. Jay just turns the ball over WAYYYYY to much.....I think everybody can agree on that.

Actually.. considering how much he threw the ball.. thats really not accurate. So no, I don't agree to that. You didn't see a 'inordinate' amount of INTs his sophmore year. When you throw the ball 600+ times, you get more INTs. He lost 2 fumbles. There were 26 other QBs that lost MORE fumbles than he did last season.

So.. no.... not everybody

Also... I just can't buy the "doesn't fit his system" excuse to be valid WHATSOEVER. I think everybody can agree that Jay has much more talent as a QB than Orton. Since when is a system BETTER with less talented players?

[Lonestar]

Actually.. considering how much he threw the ball.. thats really not accurate. So no, I don't agree to that. You didn't see a 'inordinate' amount of INTs his sophmore year. When you throw the ball 600+ times, you get more INTs. He lost 2 fumbles. There were 26 other QBs that lost MORE fumbles than he did last season.

So.. no.... not everybody

Also... I just can't buy the "doesn't fit his system" excuse to be valid WHATSOEVER. I think everybody can agree that Jay has much more talent as a QB than Orton. Since when is a system BETTER with less talented players?


ask all the coaches that had Jeff George as a QB?

[Ravage!!!]

ask all the coaches that had Jeff George as a QB?

Uh huh.. :coffee:

[Lonestar]

Uh huh.. :coffee:

never quite figured out the coffee thingy, must meant those who use it a lot have nothing better to say.. or can't articulate it..

[roomemp]

Actually.. considering how much he threw the ball.. thats really not accurate. So no, I don't agree to that. You didn't see a 'inordinate' amount of INTs his sophmore year. When you throw the ball 600+ times, you get more INTs. He lost 2 fumbles. There were 26 other QBs that lost MORE fumbles than he did last season.

So.. no.... not everybody

Also... I just can't buy the "doesn't fit his system" excuse to be valid WHATSOEVER. I think everybody can agree that Jay has much more talent as a QB than Orton. Since when is a system BETTER with less talented players?

Jay is Jay........He is going to play QB the way he feels best. He is going to take chances. Jay follows to the beat of his own drum. Even Shanny said it. Jay had plenty of opportunities to hit his check down guy last year when he was introuble. How many times did we all see Jay try to squeeze a ball into a receiver that had triple coverage instead of just checking it down to get a first down?

Don't even tell me that you weren't pissed with some of his decision making last year.

[T.K.O.]

Actually.. considering how much he threw the ball.. thats really not accurate. So no, I don't agree to that. You didn't see a 'inordinate' amount of INTs his sophmore year. When you throw the ball 600+ times, you get more INTs. He lost 2 fumbles. There were 26 other QBs that lost MORE fumbles than he did last season.

So.. no.... not everybody

Also... I just can't buy the "doesn't fit his system" excuse to be valid WHATSOEVER. I think everybody can agree that Jay has much more talent as a QB than Orton. Since when is a system BETTER with less talented players?

well the point could be made that the same "system"got us to the afccg in 05' and had a winning record,with plummer and became a .500 team with the more talented? qb
i'm not saying i agree with the likelyhood that orton will outplay cutler theory
i'm just .....saying there are flaws in both arguments

[broncohead]

well the point could be made that the same "system"got us to the afccg in 05' and had a winning record,with plummer and became a .500 team with the more talented? qb
i'm not saying i agree with the likelyhood that orton will outplay cutler theory
i'm just .....saying there are flaws in both arguments

You mean when we had a defense?

[T.K.O.]

You mean when we had a defense?

so its gonna be ok with you if kyle orton loses more than 1/2 his games over the next 3 years.because shanny left our defense in such a mess,right?

i didnt think so....i bet you would'nt defend him like you would jay...why is that?

and why does mcD have only 2 years to get us to the superbowl when we just went through 10 years ( A DECADE ) without ?

people by nature are resistant to change,and im sure there have been many times in bronco history that the "fan base" was up in arms over decisions made....but they got over it .and supported the team because they love the broncos ! not the owner.....not the coach....not the quarterback!

[Denver27og]

well the point could be made that the same "system"got us to the afccg in 05' and had a winning record,with plummer and became a .500 team with the more talented? qb
i'm not saying i agree with the likelyhood that orton will outplay cutler theory
i'm just .....saying there are flaws in both arguments


plummer played with heart.. you cant say a sytem qb with ess talent is better than a more talented qb... think your comparison doesnt really make sense...

cutler/oron is like elway/krieg

[broncohead]

so its gonna be ok with you if kyle orton loses more than 1/2 his games over the next 3 years.because shanny left our defense in such a mess,right?

i didnt think so....i bet you would'nt defend him like you would jay...why is that?

and why does mcD have only 2 years to get us to the superbowl when we just went through 10 years ( A DECADE ) without ?

people by nature are resistant to change,and im sure there have been many times in bronco history that the "fan base" was up in arms over decisions made....but they got over it .and supported the team because they love the broncos ! not the owner.....not the coach....not the quarterback!

The defense is McD problem now not Shanny's. Funny how it would be the Ds fault now that Jay is gone... Also I never said anything about 2 years to get us to a superbowl. I have a problem with a few offseason moves with FA and draft but I'll have to wait and see how they turn out.

[T.K.O.]

The defense is McD problem now not Shanny's. Funny how it would be the Ds fault now that Jay is gone... Also I never said anything about 2 years to get us to a superbowl. I have a problem with a few offseason moves with FA and draft but I'll have to wait and see how they turn out.

i think it was the d's fault when cutler was here too.and could be the d's fault now that orton is here....my point is we cant hold orton and mcd to a higher standard just because were pissed !
i dont want to blame anyone for our losses....i want to win !
and i'm sure the f.o and the team want the same.
look to the future...not the past...its more FUN !:D

[Simple Jaded]

One of my oldest friends is a huge Bears fan, he thinks Kyle Orton is Brian Griese.......a complete stiff but with a slightly better arm.......he's right.......

[T.K.O.]

One of my oldest friends is a huge Bears fan, he thinks Kyle Orton is Brian Griese.......a complete stiff but with a slightly better arm.......he's right.......

cool...that means we should have a better record than last year and the year before.....thanx for the info

[Ravage!!!]

One of my oldest friends is a huge Bears fan, he thinks Kyle Orton is Brian Griese.......a complete stiff but with a slightly better arm.......he's right.......

But didn't Orton get beat out by Griese?

[powderaddict]

One of my oldest friends is a huge Bears fan, he thinks Kyle Orton is Brian Griese.......a complete stiff but with a slightly better arm.......he's right.......

Well if one of your oldest friends thinks that, then we're screwed :rolleyes::laugh:

I'm not going to crucify Orton or McDaniels until they give me a reason to. For now they are the coach and QB of my favorite team and I'm going to support them until they are no longer part of the orginization. The amount of negativity and hate, and downright juvenile name calling when they haven't even played one game is just shocking.

[Simple Jaded]

Well if one of your oldest friends thinks that, then we're screwed :rolleyes::laugh:

I'm not going to crucify Orton or McDaniels until they give me a reason to. For now they are the coach and QB of my favorite team and I'm going to support them until they are no longer part of the orginization. The amount of negativity and hate, and downright juvenile name calling when they haven't even played one game is just shocking.

Just like me, if my friend is going to offer up his negative and downright juvenile opinion, then he's opening himself up for the usual Broncos fan abuse, but my friend is also intelligent enough to know that there is a huge difference between supporting a team and supporting the moves they make just because you're a fan.

Btw, Kyle Orton has played a game, 33 to be exact.......

[Simple Jaded]

But didn't Orton get beat out by Griese?

How dare you?.......

[topscribe]

One of my oldest friends is a huge Bears fan, he thinks Kyle Orton is Brian Griese.......a complete stiff but with a slightly better arm.......he's right.......

It's amazing how many times on more than one board I have seen, "My friend
is a Bears fan, and . . . "

Is that supposed to lend some credence to that individual's opinion? Has it
occurred to anyone how many Denver fans love Plummer, and how many hate
him? How many Denver fans are/were big fans of Cutler and how many think
he is overrated? How many still even like Griese here?

I don't care what a Bears fan thinks of Orton, or even what that fan thinks of
Griese, Grossman, or McMahon, or even Walter Payton. I go by what I see,
what I observe, the evidence I dig up. Then I form my own opinion, and still
I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

Or is Chicago the one place where we would not be able to find an idiot?

-----

[Simple Jaded]

It's amazing how many times on more than one board I have seen, "My friend is a Bears fan, and . . . "

Is that supposed to lend some credence to that individual's opinion? Has it
occurred to anyone how many Denver fans love Plummer, and how many hat
him? How many Denver fans are/were big fans of Cutler and how many think
he is overrated? How many still even like Griese here?

I don't care what a Bears fan thinks of Orton, or even what that fan thinks of
Griese, Grossman, or McMahon, or even Walter Payton. I go by what I see,
what I observe, the evidence I dig up. Then I form my own opinion, and still
I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

Or is Chicago the one place where we would not be able to find an idiot?

-----

I was just going with theme of the thread.

I, too, go by what I see, what I observe and the evidence I dig up.......I have no problem forming my own opinion and I don't give a fat rats ass who agrees with me.......I've said my peace, now I return ya'll to your regularly scheduled heaping helping of Broncos Hype.

Btw, I've never been to Chicago, but I'm willing to bet that there are idiots everywhere. Why should Denver have all the luck?.......

[Lonestar]

I was just going with theme of the thread.

I, too, go by what I see, what I observe and the evidence I dig up.......I have no problem forming my own opinion and I don't give a fat rats ass who agrees with me.......I've said my peace, now I return ya'll to your regularly scheduled heaping helping of Broncos Hype.

Btw, I've never been to Chicago, but I'm willing to bet that there are idiots everywhere. Why should Denver have all the luck?.......

actually the bears have not had a legit QB since Mc Ma hon and I do not he was all that great it was almost all defense during those years.. before that Luckman.. and that was before my time ..

just like those diehard fans in Philly the bears fans are ruthless.. jay may be very disappointed that he wound up there..

I wish him well in 2010..

[Ravage!!!]

Seems Jay was very good at handling the fans and the criticisms in Denver.... I don't think that was ever a concern or a problem. Most of the criticisms were that Jay was 'too nonchalant' with the media.

[Bozo Jr.]

My good friend Terry is a diehard Bears fan, and as a matter of fact wasn't that thrilled with the trade. He felt his team was giving up too much. So to each his own. :laugh:

[topscribe]

I have a real good friend who has lived in the suburbs of Chicago for years.

Ummm . . . well, she doesn't follow football . . . :look:

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[Ravage!!!]

My good friend Terry is a diehard Bears fan, and as a matter of fact wasn't that thrilled with the trade. He felt his team was giving up too much. So to each his own. :laugh:

exactly right..... going to be both sides on this story in every NFL city

[Simple Jaded]

actually the bears have not had a legit QB since Mc Ma hon and I do not he was all that great it was almost all defense during those years.. before that Luckman.. and that was before my time ..

just like those diehard fans in Philly the bears fans are ruthless.. jay may be very disappointed that he wound up there..

I wish him well in 2010..

Except for the batteries and obscenities, Broncos fans are no different from Eagles fans, they are ridiculously critical of the starting QB. I think Cutler has to be excited about playing for his favorite team, of course that may change, but at the moment I'd have to disagree. Bears fans are nothing like Eagles/Broncos fans.

I do agree that the Bears haven't had a legit QB in decades.......

[Bozo Jr.]

I have this great friend who isn't a Broncos fan, and no his name is not Jay! :tsk:

Orton FTW :beer:

[Ravage!!!]

Jay is Jay........He is going to play QB the way he feels best. He is going to take chances. Jay follows to the beat of his own drum. Even Shanny said it. Jay had plenty of opportunities to hit his check down guy last year when he was introuble. How many times did we all see Jay try to squeeze a ball into a receiver that had triple coverage instead of just checking it down to get a first down?

Don't even tell me that you weren't pissed with some of his decision making last year.

well.. If we are going to be honest...... how many times do you REALLY think there was "triple" coverage on anyone?

But of course I yelled at some choices...ab-so-lutely. But couldn't I say that about EVERY SINGLE QB in the NFL?? Of course.

I'm just saying that those that try to tell me he had some kind of HUGE amount of turnovers are just... well.. incorrect. 18 INTs with over 600 throws and losing 2 fumbles (where 26 other QBs lost more) really isn't that many. Asking a guy to throw the ball 30+ times a game is just asking for throws into more coverages that are PREPARED for passes. Thats all.

[Ravage!!!]

I have this great friend who isn't a Broncos fan, and no his name is not Jay! :tsk:

Orton FTW :beer:

I have a dog that isn't named jay.... isn't from chicago.... and doesn't know what an 'orton' is??? Spooooky

[Dean]

actually the bears have not had a legit QB since Mc Ma hon and I do not he was all that great it was almost all defense during those years.. before that Luckman.. and that was before my time ..

just like those diehard fans in Philly the bears fans are ruthless.. jay may be very disappointed that he wound up there..

I wish him well in 2010..


That Bang cartoon fits in here very well.

http://www.bangcartoon.com/2008/delivery.htm

I would imagine most of you have already seen it but here is the URL just incase.

[TXBRONC]

That Bang cartoon fits in here very well.

http://www.bangcartoon.com/2008/delivery.htm

I would imagine most of you have already seen it but here is the URL just incase.

That was funny. :lol:

[T.K.O.]

this is from fabino's column



Why do you have Jay Cutler ranked 50th in your fantasy rankings? Are you a disgruntled Broncos fan too? I know you're going to say it's because he had better receivers to throw to, hence making him a better quarterback. But were the receivers that good or did Cutler make them better? I don't think Brandon Marshall will be as good without him! Maybe you should rank Devin Hester and Greg Olsen a little higher. C'mon man! -- K. Anderson, Las Vegas, Nev.

M.F.: No, I'm not a disgruntled Broncos fan. But I am a realist in a fantasy world. Did Cutler make Marshall and Eddie Royal better wide receivers? Sure. Will he turn Hester or Earl Bennett into the next Marshall or Royal? No chance. In fact, I think the recent news that Hester will continue his duties as a return man rather than focus on being a wideout will hurt him. The receiver I like the most in Chicago is Greg Olsen, who I've moved up to sixth at the tight end position. As for Cutler, well, I have a better chance to steal Jessica Simpson from Tony Romo then he has to duplicate last season's totals. Remember, the Broncos offense had no running game and was basically built around Cutler in 2008.

Thus, he finished with a ridiculous 616 pass attempts -- some of those attempts came when the team was behind because of it's porous defense. He probably won't even throw the football 500 times in 2009, especially with a talented runner like Matt Forte in the backfield. Cutler, who went in the ninth round in two recent expert league drafts, is still a No. 1 fantasy quarterback, but he's no longer an elite option.

[MOtorboat]

One of my oldest friends is a huge Bears fan, he thinks Kyle Orton is Brian Griese.......a complete stiff but with a slightly better arm.......he's right.......

Brian Griese went to the playoffs and made a pro bowl in his three years in Denver.

Which one of those did Jay Cutler accomplish?

[MOtorboat]

Except for the batteries and obscenities, Broncos fans are no different from Eagles fans, they are ridiculously critical of the starting QB. I think Cutler has to be excited about playing for his favorite team, of course that may change, but at the moment I'd have to disagree. Bears fans are nothing like Eagles/Broncos fans.

I do agree that the Bears haven't had a legit QB in decades.......

lol, yeah scrutiny in Denver is WAY more than Chicago. :rolleyes:

[Ravage!!!]

lol, yeah scrutiny in Denver is WAY more than Chicago. :rolleyes:

I think he's saying that Chicago isn't any less, and certainly not WAY less. Do you think the Denver is WAY less in scrutinizing the players, especially the QB??

[MOtorboat]

I think he's saying that Chicago isn't any less, and certainly not WAY less. Do you think the Denver is WAY less in scrutinizing the players, especially the QB??

Yes. The scrutiny in Chicago, L.A., New York, Philadelphia and Dallas far outweighs the scrutiny in Denver, Kansas City, Green Bay, Seattle...

Yes, the scrutiny that the player sees and hears is less.

[Ravage!!!]

Yes. The scrutiny in Chicago, L.A., New York, Philadelphia and Dallas far outweighs the scrutiny in Denver, Kansas City, Green Bay, Seattle...

Yes, the scrutiny that the player sees and hears is less.

how so? How do you figure? I haven't seen more scrutiny coming from Chicago on their players than I've seen in Denver.

You saying this because Chicago has a blue-collar reputation, or because of the size of the city?

[MOtorboat]

how so? How do you figure? I haven't seen more scrutiny coming from Chicago on their players than I've seen in Denver.

You saying this because Chicago has a blue-collar reputation, or because of the size of the city?

The size of the media.

Like it or not, players don't really pay attention to scrutiny from the fans, because they can just pretty much reject that and not think about it. In Chicago, he's going to be confronted after every game by, at least, two newspapers, five radio stations and five television stations...and that's JUST the Chicago media, not including suburbs who have credentials, Milwaukee who has a Bears reporter, Gary, Ind., who probably does...it's just a different animal.

In Denver, it was KOA, 104.3 the fan, CBS, ABC, the Colorado Springs Gazette, Boulder Camera, every now and then the Fort Collins paper...

It's just a different animal.

[T.K.O.]

Yes. The scrutiny in Chicago, L.A., New York, Philadelphia and Dallas far outweighs the scrutiny in Denver, Kansas City, Green Bay, Seattle...

Yes, the scrutiny that the player sees and hears is less.

absolutely false,respectfully disagree 1000%.chicago is so used to having average qb's,seattle pretty much the same ,la doesnt have a team new york...probably close to as much as denver.
denver fans and media have been requiring their qb to play almost at elways peak levels for 10 years thats why nobody has been good enough
jay was givin a temporary pass as he was expected to be the "next elway"
orton will be bashed if he is only average.
people forget what average means ...like its a terrible thing
in the nfl if your average that means your pretty damn good at what you do considering 99% of all the guys who ever played football cant even make an nfl roster let alone be a mid-level player

[MOtorboat]

absolutely false,respectfully disagree 1000%.chicago is so used to having average qb's,seattle pretty much the same ,la doesnt have a team new york...probably close to as much as denver.
denver fans and media have been requiring their qb to play almost at elways peak levels for 10 years thats why nobody has been good enough
jay was givin a temporary pass as he was expected to be the "next elway"
orton will be bashed if he is only average.
people forget what average means ...like its a terrible thing
in the nfl if your average that means your pretty damn good at what you do considering 99% of all the guys who ever played football cant even make an nfl roster let alone be a mid-level player

The media scrutiny, what the players see, Chicago will absolutely far outweigh Denver. Absolutely.

[T.K.O.]

The media scrutiny, what the players see, Chicago will absolutely far outweigh Denver. Absolutely.

it may now that they have cutler and are expecting a savior,but i think as a whole the fanbase and media have expected more out of the qb position in denver.also because of the style of offense.
chicago like pittsburg and philly hold the defense more accountable as thats been their bread and butter so to speak.
i,m not speaking of volume of media,more of expectations

[MOtorboat]

it may now that they have cutler and are expecting a savior,but i think as a whole the fanbase and media have expected more out of the qb position in denver.also because of the style of offense.
chicago like pittsburg and philly hold the defense more accountable as thats been their bread and butter so to speak.
i,m not speaking of volume of media,more of expectations

Trust me volume = expectations.

[topscribe]

I think what the receivers here are going to like is he throws a very catchable ball. I think sometimes when receivers say quarterbacks throw catchable balls, people are like, ‘Aren’t all the balls catchable?’ It’s just Kyle has the right amount of touch — he can throw a fastball, he can throw a touch ball, he throws an awesome deep ball — so the receivers here are really going to enjoy playing with him.

http://blog.denverbroncos.com/denverbroncos/lloyd-excited-to-play-in-denver/

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