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Tned
04-28-2009, 12:25 AM
I am making the prediction early, before the camps.

The Broncos will win the AFC West with an 8-8 or 9-7 record.

Now, why do I come to this conclusion following the ups and downs of the draft weekend? Several reasons.

First, the fact that the Broncos did not go into the draft with an aggressive plan to beef up the front 7 tells me that they are either incompetent, building for future years, or already believe the front 7 can win this year. I am leaning towards the third option.

Second, the moves made during the draft did not appear to be panicked moves, or moves to fill a position at any cost. Again, this brings us to incompetent, building for the future or feeling they are ready to win.

So, with that out of the way, and after going through the "this guy must thinks he's a genius, but out of touch with reality", phase, I took another look at things.

Offense:

We had a very good offense, sans a go to RB. The off season moves were to bring in three free agent, solid backs, to go with Hillis and Torrain. That did a solid job of solidifying the running game, but probably didn't make it dynamic.

Then, we trade Jay for Orton, which would appear to be a fair drop off in talent, but real question isn't about physical talent differences, but what the drop in production will become under Orton vs. Cutler.

Now, since McDaniels runs a spread/ball control offense, relying heavily on one and two tight end sets for QB protection and run blocking and three or four wide receivers, which relies on an intelligent QB that can make pre-snap reads and excel in the short medium pass game, it is a 'system' that Orton 'could' succeed in. Talking heads like Peter King of SI, have said that McDaniels really wanted Orton and feels so good about him that they did not even consider trying to get Sanchez.

So, we have one of the best lines in the league, one of the best blocking tight ends in the league, a new young blocking tight end, and three very solid WR's (Marshall, Royal and Stokely) and possibly Scheffler out of the tight end and slot positions.

All the pieces in place, but having to rely on an RBBC. First pick is Moreno, a player that could come in and make an immediate impact. Capable of playing on all three downs, including having very good receiving skill for third down catches. He can run between the tackles, and MOST important he is a good pass blocker which is critical in a one back set with a QB that might just need a little extra time.

What I see is an offense that should be able to both move the ball, but more importantly do it in a methodical, time eating manner --- ball control offense.

Then we turn to the defense. Man, weren't we supposed to fix the front seven? Guess not.

Let's take dogs approach and start at the back. Champ is champ. We picked up a solid starting CB to start opposite of him. In addition, we picked up a mean, hard hitting safety in Hawkins. Finally, we picked up someone that I didn't know in much more than name, Renaldo Hill. I initially read some questionable stuff about him, especially related to his range and age. However. last week listening to Sirius NFL, they were recounting a discussion with the Miami DC or HC. They talked about how Hill was beat out in training camp by a younger guy, and the D struggled for a few games, and they put Hill back in, and the defense picked up dramatically and the coach credits hills play for turning the D around. This was being retold talking to a Miami caller, when the hosts were telling the fan that Miami had some big shoes to fill in Hill.

So, the more I read about our various players, I see we should have a solid secondary. Using the build from the back philosophy that Dog described that Nolan uses.

Then, the draft comes, and we pay dearly for a nickel DB, that if he can win a spot, could have an immediate impact when we are playing teams like Indy and NE. Then we bring in a safety with mixed reviews, but is supposed to be ball hawk. He might only be depth, or he might play in three safety, big nickel type packages.

Now we move forward. The front seven. The 800 pound gorilla in the room. Why did McDaniels ignore the biggest need on draft day. Did he?

McD had made a case that he felt they addressed the front in FA. So, what do we have.

The number one question is do we have a nose tackle. The leading contender would have to be free agent Fields, however he hasn't started since '07. It could also be Thomas, although he is a bit light for the position. A very long shot could be UFDA Baker winning that position battle.

We will go the most conservative route. Fields becomes the nose tackle. An adequate nosetackle doesn't have to get penetration, just tie up 650 lbs of a center and guard. We will assume he can do this.

So, with Fields at nose tackle, we have Thomas and ayers at the two end positions, with Peterson/Powell replacing ayers, or in a four men rotation at end.

They are big enough and good enough athletes to play ends in the 3-4.

Now, linebacker. The inside is solid with DJ and Davis, with Larsen and possibly woodyard for depth. That leaves the only real question is how effectively will our four light ends be at transferring to OLB.

Dumerville will obviously have the highest expectation to make the move and should have the skills to do so. Opposite him, the best option is the special teams specialist, Reid Rotating with them, or competing for the job is Crowder and Moss, and of course Boss Bailey will be in the mix as either another option inside, or as an undersized OLB.

So, when you piece it all together, our offense should be less explosive than last year, but has the potential to be more of a ball control offense, and likely a better red zone offense. By being more ball control, and not going for the deep ball as often, the turnovers should be reduced.

Moreno and Quinn make the offense at least as productive as last year' (points and TOP, not necessarily total yards) offense. That ball contrrol offense and longer TOP, means the defense has more time to rest between series.

Our secondary has seen a clear upgrade, and if Smith can start day one as the nickel back, then our secondary should be a significant upgrade over last year.

That brings us back to the front seven.

Can a front seven of Ayers/Powell, Fields, Thomas up front, and Reid/Moss, Davis, DJ, Dumervil succeed in their new 3-4 roles?

The more I have read, looked at the roster, listened to the pressers, read articles about various players, etc., I think that Nolan can put together a solid 3-4 front seven with the combination of players previously on the roster, plus FA's and those drafted.

We have about 9 guys with the physical skills and talent, and while they will need to make some adjustments, like dumervill dropping into coverage, I think they have the coaching staff to teach them.

So, I am officially making the early prediction that we will win the AFC West with a .500 or just over .500 record.

EMB6903
04-28-2009, 12:30 AM
Broncos winning the AFC West?

I highly doubt it, Im not expecting much from Ayers or Smith this year.... esspecially if Ayers is being asked to gain 20 pounds, and I dont expect a lot from Smith knowing that we are one of the worst teams at rushing the passer.

I see a 7-9 year from Denver.... But I do think they will show promise and maturity which is the only thing that matters at this point because we all know this team isnt a real contender to compete for a Superbowl....

shank
04-28-2009, 12:32 AM
motion 2nded. (being somewhere around an 8-8 record... not sure if that will win it this year).

sneakers
04-28-2009, 12:34 AM
16-0...I have been predicting that record for 15+ years every year...why stop now?

EMB6903
04-28-2009, 12:37 AM
San Diego will win the AFC West with a 10-6 record... you go to remember they are getting one of the best pass rushers in the league back along with a healthy LT.

I cannot wait to see Clady vs Merriman match ups.

MasterShake
04-28-2009, 12:38 AM
16-0...I have been predicting that record for 15+ years every year...why stop now?

You buy a lot of model glue, but no models, don't you? :lol:

I like your attitude, I feel the same way until the first soul crushing loss of each season.:salute:

shank
04-28-2009, 12:38 AM
You buy a lot of model glue, but no models, don't you? :lol:

I like your attitude, I feel the same way until the first soul crushing loss of each season.:salute:

yeah me too. after that first loss i usually change my prediction to 15-1.

Tned
04-28-2009, 12:39 AM
motion 2nded. (being somewhere around an 8-8 record... not sure if that will win it this year).

We have a tough schedule, SD has a tough schedule.

We both play:
Pitt
Bal
CLE
CIN
NYG
PHI
WAS
DAL

Pretty brutal,
and then our second place schedule adds:
Indy
NE

SD's 1st place schdule adds
Miami
Tenn

Depending on how Miami and Tenn play this year, our schedules can be similar, or our could be quite a bit harder.

Either way, Den and SD are playing vicious schedules and could find that something around .500 wins the division, or even 7-9.

EMB6903
04-28-2009, 12:41 AM
You people are living in a dream world if you think we are going to the playoffs next year... (no offense)

Tned
04-28-2009, 12:41 AM
San Diego will win the AFC West with a 10-6 record... you go to remember they are getting one of the best pass rushers in the league back along with a healthy LT.

I cannot wait to see Clady vs Merriman match ups.

How healthy on both their parts? LT was injured the last two years, and pulled the muscle off his groin in the final game. Merriman is coming off knee surgery, and there is still some doubt if he is the same player (skill and durability) without the steriodsl

Tned
04-28-2009, 12:42 AM
You people are living in a dream world if you think we are going to the playoffs next year... (no offense)

No offense, we had something like the second highest offense in football last year.

shank
04-28-2009, 12:42 AM
We have a tough schedule, SD has a tough schedule.

We both play:
Pitt
Bal
CLE
CIN
NYG
PHI
WAS
DAL

Pretty brutal,
and then our second place schedule adds:
Indy
NE

SD's 1st place schdule adds
Miami
Tenn

Depending on how Miami and Tenn play this year, our schedules can be similar, or our could be quite a bit harder.

Either way, Den and SD are playing vicious schedules and could find that something around .500 wins the division, or even 7-9.
very true, but they bring much more continuity into the season. i think we'll be fairly inconsistent this season (what has changed?) because of how much change we have undergone. i think we have the potential to make it close again this year, but just feel like they will fare better than us in 09... '10 and beyond is back to utter domination though.

sneakers
04-28-2009, 12:43 AM
You buy a lot of model glue, but no models, don't you? :lol:

I like your attitude, I feel the same way until the first soul crushing loss of each season.:salute:

What?!?

I was pretty close to my prediction in '98.

shank
04-28-2009, 12:43 AM
No offense, we had something like the second highest offense in football last year.

joke, or misunderstanding?

MasterShake
04-28-2009, 12:44 AM
What?!?

I was pretty close to my prediction in '98.

I was pretty close the first 3 games last year... We need Hoculi to ref more often for us.

OrangeHoof
04-28-2009, 12:47 AM
We'll win the division because...

The Raiders suck and are totally clueless.

The Chiefs suck and are totally clueless.

The Chargers have Norv and...well, North Korea has nukes.

I guess if all three happen, that just leaves us...and we'll win the division in McDiapers' first year after winning with a lot of Arena League-like scores.

1badcj8
04-28-2009, 12:48 AM
I wish you were right but I don't think so either. I'm just hoping we can and will be more competitive than we were last year. That late season run was dismal and more typical of where we were as a team and I don't think this draft helped that much. But I truly hope I'm wrong and will be pulling, voting, cheering, screaming at my TV like any other year and PO'ed big time any time any one else says something bad about the Broncos.

I see us finishing 2nd place behind SD again, only it wont come down to the wire again, SD will take it going away by 2 games. We will again struggle on :defense:.

bcbronc
04-28-2009, 12:51 AM
I don't think the Chargers will suck as bad next year. no way they're in single digit wins again imo.


but good breakdown.

I disagree that Ayers was drafted to be a DE. he'll be making plays behind the line of scrimmage from SOLB, only putting his hand in the dirt in nickle or dime. imo.

something you missed in your breakdown, special teams will be much improved. new coach, and we're drafting/signing guys that have excelled at STs in college. last in the league for field position last year. that doesn't help the offense OR the defense.

Tned
04-28-2009, 12:55 AM
I don't think the Chargers will suck as bad next year. no way they're in single digit wins again imo.


but good breakdown.

I disagree that Ayers was drafted to be a DE. he'll be making plays behind the line of scrimmage from SOLB, only putting his hand in the dirt in nickle or dime. imo.

something you missed in your breakdown, special teams will be much improved. new coach, and we're drafting/signing guys that have excelled at STs in college. last in the league for field position last year. that doesn't help the offense OR the defense.

Yea, I'm on my little asus EEE PC in bed and falling asleep, so I didn't touch STs. We picked up a number of players that can help us there.

None of us really know on Ayers, and if he goes OLB, then we have Peterson, Powell, Thomas and a couple other bodies to compete for the end spots. However, based on the film I saw and McDaniels comment about him playing with 20 more pounds, my 'guess' is that he will be an end.

EMB6903
04-28-2009, 12:55 AM
How healthy on both their parts? LT was injured the last two years, and pulled the muscle off his groin in the final game. Merriman is coming off knee surgery, and there is still some doubt if he is the same player (skill and durability) without the steriodsl

Denver has a new Quarterback, Defensive scheme, Offensive scheme, coaching staff and 1/3rd of our roster from last year has changed.. There is going to be an adjustment period.. whether you all want to accept it or not.

With the Shawne Merriman situation these days a knee surgery isnt much to worry about...esspecially if you have 20+ months to recover... Im pretty sure they will get atleast 10+ sacks out of him... and LT had knee and toe problems going into the season last year... I dont see that happening this year.

Also.. They have a quarterback named Phillip Rivers, a top 10 Quarterback in this league. They are just the better team right now, I hate to say it but its the truth.. Its not like they are Superbowl contenders, they're far from it...They are just better then 3 very weak teams who are in a rebuilding stage... I'm not worried about it though.. give it a couple years and I see this Denver dominating the AFC West once again.

WARHORSE
04-28-2009, 01:02 AM
Well, since everyone has an opium, I figure I'll give mine.

I was shaking my head and throwing things at the TV most of the time.

But after I listened to each of the top five picks interviews on DenverBroncos.com, I changed my mind.

Why?

Because if this coach actually fills this roster with men who all have the same attributes as the ones I listened to, then I cant help but be excited.
Heres what I noticed about these players:

They are tough. Not just tough talking either. They have that 'air' about them when you listen to them.

They tackle. In the open field, they tackle. In the box, they tackle. Behind the line, they tackle.

They are special teams thumpers. They all seem to excel at special teams in some way, whether as gunners, which many are, or as punt blockers, which a few are, or punt and kick returners. All of them, coupled with the special teams demons we signed in free agency, are going to be a dominant crew at pinning teams deep in their own territory.

They are smart. They each can articulate their thoughts well, some of them even very well. They each have been reviewed in football study habits and knowledge, and each passed with flying colors.

Theyre eager to compete and get better. They look at the competition as a personal challenge. They arent afraid to mix it up with the veterans, yet they recognize the veterans as a source of intel, and respect them as well.

They all wanted to be here. Quite a few of them stated that Denver was the place they were hoping to come, and recognized it as a class organization.

They stop the run. Whether secondary or otherwise, they can play in the box.

Theyre versatile. Special teams alone makes them more valuable, but some of them have other skills they are more than eager to share.

They are willing to play anywhere. Its about getting on the field for these guys. Its about FOOTBALL. Not shying away from trying to be a star, but being a star for the team.

They get the football back. These guys are all able to make the INT in the secondary. They are big play makers on third downs. That means these guys can think on their feet.

The first thing that really made me angry was the trade of our number one next year. But I figure, if Alphonso plays well and makes a big contribution, and we draft after 20 next year, its a good deal. In actuality, its a really good deal.
If he ends up starting, its a steal.
If we draft in the top ten, then we lost out. As long as hes a starter for years to come............it was a good pick to bring a player in now.
That means both starting corners, and our nickle backs, not to mention our safeties, all will be able to come up with the football in the air on an errant pass.

Im gettin my buzz back.


I think we will play a different style of offense, and if Moreno can be a stud threat all around player, then the deceptiveness of our offense steps up. We wont have to change backs dependent on game situations. With a big run threat, the passing has do do less, but with effectiveness can be more.

Its learning the system that will calibrate how quickly we play well.
There will be some hard fought games, and I look forward to getting our feet wet.


I still cant believe Kyle Orton is our quarterback.:shocked:

honz
04-28-2009, 01:06 AM
War and Tned drinking the Kool-Aid? Uh oh...

Shazam!
04-28-2009, 01:10 AM
I won't claim a Denver a division winner, but when people talk about the murderer's row schedule, teams take a step back year to year no matter who you are. Injuries, an improved division, and even luck can determine if a team falls one year to the next. Sure they finished 11-5 but after going undefeated, if you told someone the Patriots won't even make the Playoffs the very next year, you'd be laughed in your face. Besides that, SD has clinched the AFC West three years in a row WITH NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT! That should be an embarassment for all involved in the AFCW, fans and franchises alike. They're due for a step back, whether it's injuries, Denver, or another AFCW team stepping up.

I hope the Offense remains productive, and we have the feature Back in Moreno that Shanahan was sorely lacking the last few years, whether due to injury or talent. I want Orton to be productive, he won't put up Cutler numbers in yardage but all we can do is hope he has enough leadership in the huddle to get the confidence of the WRs and he won't make mistakes that we've become accustommed to seeing. He'll have time to survey, check down and pick his targets. Offensively this team will be the best he's ever played with, so hopefully we'll see Denver QBs not embarass themselves. I hope Bradstater watches with four eyes glued on the field, because he's the only QB we have for the future right now.

As far as the horrendous defense goes, I've said this before that a change in scheme alone can improve a squad. I dont think they'll be very good, but even if they're a middle of the pack Defense, that will be an immense improvement. How sad is that? The tools are in place to play the 3-4 and they already have a NT in Fields. He's barely a second tier player but he's better than whatever they had before. They're not stars but if they can get any kid of cohesiveness, motivation, hunger and leadership they can be better. The CBs can't play with the huge gaps between the WRs anymore, let's hope Nolan changes that CRAP. Tackling, reaction, over-pursuit and reading are all issues the last few years especially with the LBs and all that can be coached. There will be a lot of ??'s here and there, let's hope Nolan does the job.

Denver's position coaches are very good, that's one thing that McDaniels has done very well. A bonafide DC Denver needed for a LONG time, let's hope he does better than Ray Rhodes did. If the Coaches can get these guys motivated, which is something Shanahan couldn't do anymore, Denver will be much improved on this alone, even with the same roster as last season. They MUST stay healthy and Champ needs to be back there for almost the whole Season this time.

If this team contends for a Playoff spot, not clinches one but contends, fights every step of the way, avoids the type of blowouts we've seen (especially in 2007) and shows the kind of hunger and desire that we've missed the past few years, as opposed to witnessing the kind of colossal and embarassing collapse we saw last year, I'd accept that. 9-7 is not out of reach in a weak AFC West.

shank
04-28-2009, 01:11 AM
orton is a better quarterback than many people are giving him credit for. he won 9 games last year with a bad o-line, bad receivers, and a running game that was tied with ours in TDs, and was much worse in yards and average yards/carry. yes their defense was much better than ours, but it was STILL ONLY AVERAGE. (16th in scoring, 21st in yards)

(they were 2nd in creating turnovers however).

honz
04-28-2009, 01:13 AM
orton is a better quarterback than many people are giving him credit for. he won 9 games last year with a bad o-line, bad receivers, and a running game that was tied with ours in TDs, and was much worse in yards and average yards/carry. yes their defense was much better than ours, but it was STILL ONLY AVERAGE. (16th in scoring, 21st in yards)
Plus, he could drink Jay Cutler under the table. I'll take Orton any day. :drinking:

Shazam!
04-28-2009, 01:14 AM
I bet he could kick Jay's ass in a fight.

CrazyHorse
04-28-2009, 01:18 AM
I bet he could kick Jay's ass in a fight.

That's not fair. Jay needs his insulin shots.

EMB6903
04-28-2009, 01:21 AM
Nevermind, also my bad

We are going 19-0.... mark it!

EMB6903
04-28-2009, 01:23 AM
I bet he could kick Jay's ass in a fight.

Jay would toy with him...

Cutler's by far the toughest Quarterback in the league...

CrazyHorse
04-28-2009, 01:24 AM
Jay would toy with him...

Cutler's by far the toughest Quarterback in the league...

He rarely gets sacked...

shank
04-28-2009, 01:24 AM
orton also had a better TD/INT ratio in 2008 than jay. he threw for 18 TDs without nearly as good of weapons or protection as jay, who threw just 7 more TDs, despite throwing the ball 151 more times than kyle.

kyle scored a TD about every 26 attempts, jay scored a TD about every 25 attempts. not a huge difference considering the perceived talent gap between the players... but think of how much better jay's surrounding cast was.

EMB6903
04-28-2009, 01:26 AM
He rarely get's sacked...

He ran over 2 defensive backs this year.... 2 very tough ones also (Ronde Barber, Brandon Flowers)

and didnt he punk a KC linebacker?

Hate him all you want but Jay's a bad ass..... the guy puts his shoulder down more then he slides..although hes a douchebag and drunk off the field I will always be a fan of his, he plays the game the way it should be played.... very competitive.

EMB6903
04-28-2009, 01:33 AM
orton also had a better TD/INT ratio in 2008 than jay. he threw for 18 TDs without nearly as good of weapons or protection as jay, who threw just 7 more TDs, despite throwing the ball 151 more times than kyle.

kyle scored a TD about every 26 attempts, jay scored a TD about every 25 attempts. not a huge difference considering the perceived talent gap between the players... but think of how much better jay's surrounding cast was.


Orton had a big time advantage when it comes to field posession as well as having a run game that can deliver inside the 20's... along with a defense that can actually get off the field on 3rd downs...But I cant deny that Orton played with horrible WR's as well as no offensive line this year ... I really hope he can progress in Denver, I'm just not expecting much from him.

NameUsedBefore
04-28-2009, 01:47 AM
5-11


+/- 1.



Underestimating the impact of the horror show defense; overestimating QB play.

Cutler fared pretty well throwing into nickel and dime packages all day. I can't say either Orton or Simms can do that which is why we'll have to bank on our run game. Except, just like last year, it's hard to bank on the run game when you're getting blown out. Then you turn to Orton/Simms to save us by throwing into a thicket of DBs. It's not a pretty picture.

Seriously, I think the offense can stand very well on its own. It doesn't have many holes and Orton/Simms could easily manage it without pressure. But if our defense is the same as last year, which is totally possible since we didn't exactly address its issues this offseason, then it really doesn't matter. Orton/Simms don't impress me as the sort to play well when the pressure is entirely on them and they're throwing against nickel/dimes instead of the 4-4's they're used to.

honz
04-28-2009, 01:54 AM
5-11


+/- 1.



Underestimating the impact of the horror show defense; overestimating QB play.

Cutler fared pretty well throwing into nickel and dime packages all day. I can't say either Orton or Simms can do that which is why we'll have to bank on our run game. Except, just like last year, it's hard to bank on the run game when you're getting blown out. Then you turn to Orton/Simms to save us by throwing into a thicket of DBs. It's not a pretty picture.

Seriously, I think the offense can stand very well on its own. It doesn't have many holes and Orton/Simms could easily manage it without pressure. But if our defense is the same as last year, which is totally possible since we didn't exactly address its issues this offseason, then it really doesn't matter. Orton/Simms don't impress me as the sort to play well when the pressure is entirely on them and they're throwing against nickel/dimes instead of the 4-4's they're used to.
You must not have seen Orton convert several late game drives to put them into a position to win games then. Is he as good as Cutler? No he's not, but I was saying last year (I swear) that he was underrated and not getting enough credit for what he was doing for Chicago. His numbers pre-injury last year were pretty much on par with any QB in the league last year.

NameUsedBefore
04-28-2009, 02:05 AM
Well, just to point out a difference in teams. When Orton played the Lions, the Lions scored 7 points.

Last time we played the Lions I believe they scored 41.

omac
04-28-2009, 02:32 AM
Jmo, but a lot of the defensive moves seemed eerily familiar to what Shanahan did, whether with Coyer, Bates, or Slowik.

He built from the back, acquiring Champ, and also getting an effective but aging safety in Lynch. He also used the draft to heavily acquire cornerbacks, like Darrent, Paymah, Jack Williams. When we were trying to move to a Bates style defense, we started to load up on not highly sought after free agents to bulk up the line; we also got Bly to solidify the back. We also got Moss in the 1st round, because he was supposed to be the DE that fit Bates' scheme. We did invest in a DE and DT too. When moving towards the Slowik defense, we also took some veteran safeties from FA.

It turned out, none of those moves could overcome a weak DL. Teams ran at us at will, and neither having the best cb in the league and solidifying the other cb spot with a proven veteran seemed to help our passing defense, as the DL could not apply much pressure to opposing QBs.

I expected us to attack the DL aggressively through the draft, or even through FA, but that didn't happen.

We'll have to see how taking a similar approach during this draft will provide different results in our defense. Not saying it won't work, but it sure has a feeling of deja vu.

NameUsedBefore
04-28-2009, 02:56 AM
Jmo, but a lot of the defensive moves seemed eerily familiar to what Shanahan did, whether with Coyer, Bates, or Slowik.

He built from the back, acquiring Champ, and also getting an effective but aging safety in Lynch. He also used the draft to heavily acquire cornerbacks, like Darrent, Paymah, Jack Williams. When we were trying to move to a Bates style defense, we started to load up on not highly sought after free agents to bulk up the line; we also got Bly to solidify the back. We also got Moss in the 1st round, because he was supposed to be the DE that fit Bates' scheme. We did invest in a DE and DT too. When moving towards the Slowik defense, we also took some veteran safeties from FA.

It turned out, none of those moves could overcome a weak DL. Teams ran at us at will, and neither having the best cb in the league and solidifying the other cb spot with a proven veteran seemed to help our passing defense, as the DL could not apply much pressure to opposing QBs.

I expected us to attack the DL aggressively through the draft, or even through FA, but that didn't happen.

We'll have to see how taking a similar approach during this draft will provide different results in our defense. Not saying it won't work, but it sure has a feeling of deja vu.

Exactly.

If this is the same dog from last year the offensive capabilities will quickly become irrelevant and I think Simms/Orton will be overwhelmed if we're having to abandon the run-game again.

omac
04-28-2009, 03:12 AM
Exactly.

If this is the same dog from last year the offensive capabilities will quickly become irrelevant and I think Simms/Orton will be overwhelmed if we're having to abandon the run-game again.

Yeah it does look pretty similar.

A possitive aspect, though, is that we can hopefully keep our defense on the bench with a slow moving run game, the way Shanahan used to all the way up to 2005 (added) with the addition of Moreno.

bcbronc
04-28-2009, 03:23 AM
Exactly.

If this is the same dog from last year the offensive capabilities will quickly become irrelevant and I think Simms/Orton will be overwhelmed if we're having to abandon the run-game again.

come on, you really don't think our defense is any better on paper now than it was last season?

new coaches, new system, champ and dj healthy, dawkins, a corner that can tackle, safeties that can tackle, doom healthy, a top 20 pick added to our front seven, a clear focus on finding players that fit our scheme, 3 rookies with noses for the ball....

we're not Baltimore, but we should be much improved over last season. I don't think improving somewhere into the teens is unrealistic, especially considering special teams will be better, and our running game will be better (TOP and field position).

omac
04-28-2009, 03:35 AM
come on, you really don't think our defense is any better on paper now than it was last season?

new coaches, new system, champ and dj healthy, dawkins, a corner that can tackle, safeties that can tackle, doom healthy, a top 20 pick added to our front seven, a clear focus on finding players that fit our scheme, 3 rookies with noses for the ball....

we're not Baltimore, but we should be much improved over last season. I don't think improving somewhere into the teens is unrealistic, especially considering special teams will be better, and our running game will be better (TOP and field position).

Jim Bates, Bates' system, Champ & DJ healthy, Lynch, Foxworth or Paymah (corner that can tackle), Lynch, doom healthy, Moss (top 20 pick added to our front 7), clear focus on finding players to fit our scheme (that's why we got Moss, to fit Bates' scheme, and that's why we got the big linemen in FA ... remember Pat's quote about getting Beef for Bates :D), we didn't have a lot of rookies from that class, though ... we had a rookie DE who's supposedly great at getting to the QB, a rookie DE who was supposed to be good against the run, and a rookie DT who had the skills and athleticism to attack the pocket.

Maybe not a mirror image, but the situation looks the same. I remember how we all were looking forward to the nasty defense Jim Bates was going to build in Denver, only to have it be worse than his predecessor's. As a defensive mind, Bates was thought of very highly during that time. Don't know if he was thought of at the level of Nolan, though.

I am looking forward to a better defense, though; I only wish we invested heavier in the draft or FA on a badass NT.

NameUsedBefore
04-28-2009, 03:52 AM
Basically what Omac said.

Tned
04-28-2009, 06:56 AM
Underestimating the impact of the horror show defense; overestimating QB play.

Cutler fared pretty well throwing into nickel and dime packages all day. I can't say either Orton or Simms can do that which is why we'll have to bank on our run game. Except, just like last year, it's hard to bank on the run game when you're getting blown out. Then you turn to Orton/Simms to save us by throwing into a thicket of DBs. It's not a pretty picture.

Seriously, I think the offense can stand very well on its own. It doesn't have many holes and Orton/Simms could easily manage it without pressure. But if our defense is the same as last year, which is totally possible since we didn't exactly address its issues this offseason, then it really doesn't matter. Orton/Simms don't impress me as the sort to play well when the pressure is entirely on them and they're throwing against nickel/dimes instead of the 4-4's they're used to.

First, I think Orton is no where near the talent that Cutler is, but the fact is that before he injured his ankle last year in game 7 or 8, his numbers were very similar to Cutler's during that time, and that was with Cutler putting near record numbers the first three games when we talked about scoring records, etc.

Orton has done a quality job at QB. He had far fewer weapons in CHI than he will have at Denver, a much weaker O-line in Chicago. I have no doubt that Cutler would put up bigger numbers this year in Denver than Orton, but that doesn't mean Orton will bomb.

The Broncos have the pieces in place to be a ball control offense that can gain yards and score.

One major advantage to a ball control offense, is staying on the field with long, sustained drives. Keep the other defense on the field, and ours on the sideline. Last year, with our high flying offense, we could score quick, but also have a lot of 3 and outs. The defense spent a lot of time on the field. The Broncos were 25th in ToP last year.

Something to think about. Prior to and during training camp, Cutler talked to the press about how he worked all offseason on not making mistakes, not going for the homerun ball. He said the coaches drilled into his head that he need to make the short passes, take what the defense gave him, hit the underneath and dump off receivers. He said that while the long ball was fun, he finally understood he needed to move the chains. In the first couple games, he was doing this very well, but then with some success, talk of the greatest offense of all time and such, he and/or the coaches, started to ignore the underneath stuff and just keep going long and the offense fell off a cliff.

Orton is nowhere near the long ball threat, but by all accounts he is a smart, accurate passer in the short and medium passes, which the Pats offense also make their living on. There is no reason to believe that with our line, receivers, RB's and TE's, that Orton won't be able to efficiently run the offense and keep the chains moving. He might never throw a ball 65 yards on a rope like Cutler did in that first year against AZ, but then again, Cutler didn't do it 'successfully' many times after that first bootleg left.

As to the defense, besides getting some help from the offense putting together sustained drives, I believe the scheme change and better game planning will make a huge difference. There were many games the last two years where in the first quarter or even first half the defense played well, but then either in the second quarter or after half time, the other team made adjustments but our D never did. In many cases, it was clear our team was out-coached, or under-coached, depending on how you look at it.

I think it is early to assume that this defense cannot be productive, because at this point it's hard to know how much of the problem was talent vs. coaching/scheme.

I know I saw many games where the Broncos were in place, but failed to make sound tackles --- lack of skill or lack of training/technique? Could be either one? I saw plenty of games where our defense was simply in the wrong place or 'guessing' wrong -- crapply players or poor play called? Again, could be either one.

So, I am not suggesting we are a juggernaut that is going to go out and win on defense, but at the same time I think some are underestimating the impact that Dawkins, Hill and Goodman will bring, not to mention our young front D-line guys (including those moving to OLB) being a year older, under a new scheme with new coaches.

Krugan
04-28-2009, 08:27 AM
Im not sure why people assume we didnt have ball control last year.

I dont have the numbers but we where in the top 3 or 4 for 10+ play drives. Ball control isnt an issue, its been finishing drives, and stopping the other team from scoring.

This team isnt any better, or worse than last year, I just dont see how we can improve over our record last year.

Northman
04-28-2009, 08:37 AM
oh boy.

Krugan
04-28-2009, 08:42 AM
oh boy.

What?!! what did I say!?

shank
04-28-2009, 08:53 AM
Well, just to point out a difference in teams. When Orton played the Lions, the Lions scored 7 points.

Last time we played the Lions I believe they scored 41.

Kyle orton, last year, threw a TD every 26 passes. He threw an INT every 39 passes.

Jay cutler, last year, threw a TD every 25 passes. He threw an INT every 34 passes.


that stat does a pretty good job of eliminating the defense's influence. that is how efficient the two were in throwing the football, and it's very close. the difference comes when you realize that cutler had much more to work with to get those numbers than orton did.

Krugan
04-28-2009, 09:01 AM
Kyle orton, last year, threw a TD every 26 passes. He threw an INT every 39 passes.

Jay cutler, last year, threw a TD every 25 passes. He threw an INT every 34 passes.


that stat does a pretty good job of eliminating the defense's influence. that is how efficient the two were in throwing the football, and it's very close. the difference comes when you realize that cutler had much more to work with to get those numbers than orton did.

NM, I had a few minutes and looked up the stats. Thanks ayway!

Dirk
04-28-2009, 09:10 AM
As far as the Broncos winning the AFCW who knows. That would be great!

I just want the Broncos to get to .500. If they reach .500 with all the personel changes, scheme changes, coaching changes then it was a very successful year with their schedule. :salute:

powderaddict
04-28-2009, 10:02 AM
I believe in the Mile High magic!!

It can be done. It will be an amazing feat, but it can be done.

Go Broncos!!

Nomad
04-28-2009, 10:05 AM
I believe in the Mile High magic!!

It can be done. It will be an amazing feat, but it can be done.

Go Broncos!!

Where has it been the last few years? It hasn't been around!!

T.K.O.
04-28-2009, 10:19 AM
Orton had a big time advantage when it comes to field posession as well as having a run game that can deliver inside the 20's... along with a defense that can actually get off the field on 3rd downs...But I cant deny that Orton played with horrible WR's as well as no offensive line this year ... I really hope he can progress in Denver, I'm just not expecting much from him.

thats why mcd worked so hard to improve our run game,and special teams in the draft!

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 10:31 AM
I think Powel is going to be a 'keystone' on the DL. I think if he's as good as I was hoping he would be last year, he can anchor a DT spot. I think he has the heft NOT to be pushed around in that middle, just as he did in college. In college he was just like an immovable stone wall.

I also don't think Boss Bailey makes the team. Not only do I think he doesn't fit the 34 in anyway, but I don't think he's worth a roster spot due to his injury problem... ESPECIALLY the latest one in which he needed micro fracture surgery. I don't think he's back on the field this season because of that. Even if he does make a great try coming back, we all know he won't last long before he's injured again anyway.

Then there is Baker. I think this was a GREAT UDFA acquisition. I think this was somoene I was hoping we would be looking at in the 4-5 rounds. Getting him was a great op for us. I think we've seen that rookie DTs (especially in the 34 NT spot)... have a HARD time in teh NFL. Thats why I'm looking more for Powel to fill that role.

Tned
04-28-2009, 10:36 AM
I think Boss only makes the roster if our small DE's struggle to move to OLB. Boss could be used situationally for better coverage vs. rush sklls while the guys like Doom are transitioning. I think it all depends on how quickly these guys pick up the LB role.

shank
04-28-2009, 10:38 AM
i think boss's versatility will earn him a spot. i hope he doesn't end up starting... because he really doesn't FIT in a 3-4, but he does have the size and speed to play any of the linebacker positions if we needed him to. that kind of versatility is valuable when designating roster spots.

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 10:39 AM
You must not have seen Orton convert several late game drives to put them into a position to win games then. Is he as good as Cutler? No he's not, but I was saying last year (I swear) that he was underrated and not getting enough credit for what he was doing for Chicago. His numbers pre-injury last year were pretty much on par with any QB in the league last year.

So was Cambells... and the Redskins have been biting at EVERY QB they could this offseason to get rid of him. The Bears didn't offer up 2 1st rounders because Orton was considered as good as the rest.


I don't 'dislike' Orton.. I have no reason to. But at the place where I watched all the games last year, we had a LOT (and I mean a lot for my area especially) of Minnesota and Chicago bear fans. EVERY week I would watch their games, and Orton wasn't a player the Bears fans were fond of, or confident in. The coaching staff for Chicago wasn't either. So I don't know, but I personallly don't think Orton was underrated. I think he was looked at as just what he is.... very average at best.

NameUsedBefore
04-28-2009, 10:40 AM
Kyle orton, last year, threw a TD every 26 passes. He threw an INT every 39 passes.

Jay cutler, last year, threw a TD every 25 passes. He threw an INT every 34 passes.


that stat does a pretty good job of eliminating the defense's influence. that is how efficient the two were in throwing the football, and it's very close. the difference comes when you realize that cutler had much more to work with to get those numbers than orton did.

How so.

Also, I don't think Orton throwing against the 4-4 all day is too comparable to say, Cutler throwing into dime and nickel packages for an entire game.

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 10:40 AM
I think Boss only makes the roster if our small DE's struggle to move to OLB. Boss could be used situationally for better coverage vs. rush sklls while the guys like Doom are transitioning. I think it all depends on how quickly these guys pick up the LB role.

Micro fractury surgery is one of those that keeps players out for a year.. have seen it in every sport, and obviously most sports aren't nearly as physical on the body as football. Thus I just don't think Boss, a player that couldn't stay on the field anyway due to his 100 injuries, will be back this season. I just hate the idea of relying on a guy that is constantly out because he's injured.

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 10:44 AM
As far as the Broncos winning the AFCW who knows. That would be great!

I just want the Broncos to get to .500. If they reach .500 with all the personel changes, scheme changes, coaching changes then it was a very successful year with their schedule. :salute:

I agree with this. I personally don't expect to get to 8-8... but would be thrilled if we do.

I also believe its the second season that determines a team with any new coach. Thats not a McD bash. I'm saying teams like Miami and Atlanta surprised everyone with their win totals last season.... but lets see how they do THIS year. Many HC's come in their first season with a new team and win, but then completely lose and fail after that. Saw it with the Atlanta and Miami's coaches in recent past.

So although THIS next season is an important one for us, its the 2010 season I think is the telling point. Thats the one that will start showing our path.

shank
04-28-2009, 10:45 AM
So was Cambells... and the Redskins have been biting at EVERY QB they could this offseason to get rid of him. The Bears didn't offer up 2 1st rounders because Orton was considered as good as the rest.


I don't 'dislike' Orton.. I have no reason to. But at the place where I watched all the games last year, we had a LOT (and I mean a lot for my area especially) of Minnesota and Chicago bear fans. EVERY week I would watch their games, and Orton wasn't a player the Bears fans were fond of, or confident in. The coaching staff for Chicago wasn't either. So I don't know, but I personallly don't think Orton was underrated. I think he was looked at as just what he is.... very average at best.

i live with a bears fan, and he expects orton to have a ton of success in denver. the only thing my roommate didn't like about orton was his accuracy on the deep ball... but that can be worked around most of the time.

while it's true that orton isn't a "franchise" quarterback, he looked average with the bears because he had bad receiving options, and a bad offensive line... you have to take into account the players he had around him!

i'm not saying we won't see a difference, because jay can make throws that almost no other quarterbacks can... but think of how many times his arm got us into the trouble that his arm later had to get us out of, and how many times it failed to do so. orton should be the cause of fewer 'setbacks.' that keeps our defense off the field.

NightTrainLayne
04-28-2009, 10:46 AM
So was Cambells... and the Redskins have been biting at EVERY QB they could this offseason to get rid of him. The Bears didn't offer up 2 1st rounders because Orton was considered as good as the rest.


I don't 'dislike' Orton.. I have no reason to. But at the place where I watched all the games last year, we had a LOT (and I mean a lot for my area especially) of Minnesota and Chicago bear fans. EVERY week I would watch their games, and Orton wasn't a player the Bears fans were fond of, or confident in. The coaching staff for Chicago wasn't either. So I don't know, but I personallly don't think Orton was underrated. I think he was looked at as just what he is.... very average at best.

Fans judging QB play. .. We have a bunch of fans here that complain non-stop about a QB that took us to the AFC Championship game.

I have a feeling that Chicago fan's dislike for Orton is really misplaced anger at their offensive scheme and play-calling, but it's just my opinion.

Tned
04-28-2009, 10:50 AM
i live with a bears fan, and he expects orton to have a ton of success in denver. the only thing my roommate didn't like about orton was his accuracy on the deep ball... but that can be worked around most of the time.

while it's true that orton isn't a "franchise" quarterback, he looked average with the bears because he had bad receiving options, and a bad offensive line... you have to take into account the players he had around him!

i'm not saying we won't see a difference, because jay can make throws that almost no other quarterbacks can... but think of how many times his arm got us into the trouble that his arm later had to get us out of, and how many times it failed to do so. orton should be the cause of fewer 'setbacks.' that keeps our defense off the field.

I have a friend that lives in Chicago and been a Bears fan for decades. He said virtually the same thing about Orton. While he is THRILLED to have Cutler, he expects Orton to play very well in Denver with the line protection and receivers.

TXBRONC
04-28-2009, 10:52 AM
I think Boss only makes the roster if our small DE's struggle to move to OLB. Boss could be used situationally for better coverage vs. rush sklls while the guys like Doom are transitioning. I think it all depends on how quickly these guys pick up the LB role.

I wonder how well Boss will do in coverage considering the fact he had knee surgery.

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 10:57 AM
Fans judging QB play. .. We have a bunch of fans here that complain non-stop about a QB that took us to the AFC Championship game.

I have a feeling that Chicago fan's dislike for Orton is really misplaced anger at their offensive scheme and play-calling, but it's just my opinion.

I personally watch and judge the QB based on his play on the field... watching the games. I was never a fan of the QB that took us to the AFC Championship, because his play scared me to death every time he dropped back to pass.

I feel pretty much the same way about Orton. I just don't get excited about the player.

Northman
04-28-2009, 11:06 AM
What?!! what did I say!?

Not you, just my reaction to Tned's announcement. :lol:

shank
04-28-2009, 11:12 AM
I personally watch and judge the QB based on his play on the field... watching the games. I was never a fan of the QB that took us to the AFC Championship, because his play scared me to death every time he dropped back to pass.

I feel pretty much the same way about Orton. I just don't get excited about the player.

excitement is overrated. how many drives ended because jay tried to squeeze one in 14 yards downfield on 3rd and 3 instead of checking down to an open RB or TE?

i swear i would be happy if we never had a big play again, but we picked up 1st downs and TDs with consistency and had 7+ minute drives. those are WAY more demoralizing to the other team than a big play.


(and that WON'T happen, we have too many talented receivers, runners... big plays won't be kyle orton's obligation).

Tned-Mobile
04-28-2009, 11:19 AM
excitement is overrated. how many drives ended because jay tried to squeeze one in 14 yards downfield on 3rd and 3 instead of checking down to an open RB or TE?

i swear i would be happy if we never had a big play again, but we picked up 1st downs and TDs with consistency and had 7+ minute drives. those are WAY more demoralizing to the other team than a big play.


(and that WON'T happen, we have too many talented receivers, runners... big plays won't be kyle orton's obligation).

I'm on record for not being happy losing Cutler. I think we will be hearing about, and regretting it, for years. However, having a game manager type QB, with the other weapons on the team won't be such a bad thing.

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 11:23 AM
excitement is overrated. how many drives ended because jay tried to squeeze one in 14 yards downfield on 3rd and 3 instead of checking down to an open RB or TE?

i swear i would be happy if we never had a big play again, but we picked up 1st downs and TDs with consistency and had 7+ minute drives. those are WAY more demoralizing to the other team than a big play.


(and that WON'T happen, we have too many talented receivers, runners... big plays won't be kyle orton's obligation).

Please don't try to feed me this Junk about how "jay" was just so bad about reading defense.... I personally think thats just crap. Its not accurate. We had one of the best 3rd down teams in the NFL. Jay's completion percentage was over 62% when throwing over 600 times.

Do you realize just how many passes that is? Neither Manning nor Kurt Warner have EVER thrown the ball 600 times in a season. Kurt Warner and the leader of the "Greatest SHow on Turf" didn't throw the ball 600 times a season. The closest Manning had, was his FIFTH season in the NFL and threw for 27/19... He also had Wayne, Harrison, AND Edgerin James. I guess you will tell me that Manning didn't have the weapons Cutler had, and couldn't read a defense... right?

Seriously. The Cutler blame around here is absurdly ridiculous.

Excitment isn't over rated. The reason TOP players are top players, is because they are good enough to be exciting. They do exciting things. They make exciting plays. Micheal Jordan didn't become the name he had because he was boring. Brett Favre didn't win three MVPs because he was a 'system QB'... and Barry Sanders wasn't considered the most dynamic player to watch because of all the championships he 'methodically' won.

shank
04-28-2009, 11:30 AM
I'm on record for not being happy losing Cutler. I think we will be hearing about, and regretting it, for years. However, having a game manager type QB, with the other weapons on the team won't be such a bad thing.

oh, i'm not happy, but i'm not going to shit on orton just because i miss jay. he did more in chicago than people give him credit for, and i honestly do expect him to succeed here in denver. he's only been in the league for 3 years also, and has growing left to do, just like jay.

found another stat that i like.

broncos (jay) interceptions per drive = .110 (29th in the league)
bears (kyle) interceptions per drive = .071 (11th in league)

shank
04-28-2009, 11:33 AM
Please don't try to feed me this Junk about how "jay" was just so bad about reading defense.... I personally think thats just crap. Its not accurate. We had one of the best 3rd down teams in the NFL. Jay's completion percentage was over 62% when throwing over 600 times.

Do you realize just how many passes that is? Neither Manning nor Kurt Warner have EVER thrown the ball 600 times in a season. Kurt Warner and the leader of the "Greatest SHow on Turf" didn't throw the ball 600 times a season. The closest Manning had, was his FIFTH season in the NFL and threw for 27/19... He also had Wayne, Harrison, AND Edgerin James. I guess you will tell me that Manning didn't have the weapons Cutler had, and couldn't read a defense... right?

Seriously. The Cutler blame around here is absurdly ridiculous.

Excitment isn't over rated. The reason TOP players are top players, is because they are good enough to be exciting. They do exciting things. They make exciting plays. Micheal Jordan didn't become the name he had because he was boring. Brett Favre didn't win three MVPs because he was a 'system QB'... and Barry Sanders wasn't considered the most dynamic player to watch because of all the championships he 'methodically' won.
dude, you are reading a whole lot more than i am writing.

i am a jay cutler fan, i wish he was still here... but he did force balls that resulted in bad consequences for the team. i didn't say anything about him not being able to read defenses, i don't even know where you're pulling that from. i'm not blaming cutler, i'm just talking about how the two players compare when it comes to protecting the football.

if you ask me which QB i want on 3rd and 14, it's a no brainer. i'm not knocking down jay cutler, i'm just trying to show that kyle orton did some good things without anywhere close the the same level of surrounding talent as cutler had.

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 11:38 AM
I think its interesting that the Chargers have continued to lower their wins, per season, every year their newest coach has taken the reigns....(or their newest QB has been there as well).

But I don't think they have as bad a season as they did last year. ALthough I would find that to be VERY funny. I think Norv has put his stamp on that team, and it is VERY obvious that the Chargers have not drafted NEARLY as well since Marty Schottenheimer has left. (If there is ONE guy that is out there that the Broncos should HIRE as personnel director..... its Marty Schottenheimer. He has BUILT every team he's gone to from the bottom to playoff teams. The guy KNOWS players). This year was another draft they didn't exactly 'wow' people with their choices.

But I think because of all our changes, that it puts us yet another step behind them. I think we take a step back, before we take a step forward. Changing defensive schemes (and not just scheme, but changing from a 43 to a 34 is one of the hardest changes).. changing OC, sytems, HCs.. QBs.. and having a tough schedule just keeps us one year from really taking the west.

I think we saw it just a couple years back when we brought in a bunch of FAs.... things take time to gel.... and this year is DEFINITETLY an offseason where we are bringing in a LOT of things that need time to gel.

Northman
04-28-2009, 11:40 AM
Turner is very average. Always has been.

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 11:47 AM
dude, you are reading a whole lot more than i am writing.

i am a jay cutler fan, i wish he was still here... but he did force balls that resulted in bad consequences for the team. i didn't say anything about him not being able to read defenses, i don't even know where you're pulling that from. i'm not blaming cutler, i'm just talking about how the two players compare when it comes to protecting the football.

if you ask me which QB i want on 3rd and 14, it's a no brainer. i'm not knocking down jay cutler, i'm just trying to show that kyle orton did some good things without anywhere close the the same level of surrounding talent as cutler had.

Well. I admit I took your post and basically 'conformed' it to represent the same knocks I've been reading over and over again on the boards, and wasn't just responding to YOUR post.

But the offense philosophies were just so different from the two teams. The Bears had the benefit of saying "if its not there, throw it away and our give our defense a chance to hold them." Denver didn't have that benefit. ITs MUCH easier to be safe with the ball when you know your defense stand HALF a chance of holding someone.

Our defense gave up 30+ points in 9 games last season, and 15 of the last 32. Hard for a QB to feel as though EVERY series isn't one to PUSH for when every other game the team gives up 30+ points. I think that DOES play into the mentality of the players (not just the QB, but the entire offense that was filled with YOUNG players).

I just think I hear this "he forced balls" far too often. We would see people complain that he 'threw into triple coverage' a lot around the boards... but when in reality he didn't, people react to the 'converging' defensive players instead of really seeing the coverage. Sure he forced balls. Absolutely he did. QBs do that. I just think its an over-used statement.

Kyle is what he is. I get that. I get being positive and hoping for the best. I DO know taht we won't be putting the game on Kyle's shoulders like we did Jay's... and Kyle will be more of a Plummer type QB. Thats fine, if we can get the defense to be somewhat....anywhere near... a resemblence of an NFL defense. Then we can let Kyle be Kyle without having to ask him to do more than what we really wantof him to do. Because if our defense gives up as many points as we did the last two years, I don't think you see Kyle being as 'protective' of the ball as he appeared to be in Chicago.

shank
04-28-2009, 11:54 AM
i agree with you. both jay and kyle will see their games have to change for their new situations. i think kyle benefits from these changes much more than jay does.

i'm not saying kyle will play to the level of jay, or that he will be THE reason we win football games. i am saying that it is my opinion that kyle orton will not hold the broncos back because of his play, and with time, comfort, and growth as a player, he may soon be an above average passer, especially with McD's QB magic.

the defense is still an issue, but like i've said before, i think we've upgraded the most important position on defense by getting mike nolan. even if he's average as a DC, he's 100 times better for the broncos than bob slowik was. take that upgrade, with the upgrade to our running game, as well as the upgrades that we DID get in FA and the draft on defense, and i expect lots of improvement. great? probably not... better? absolutely.

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 11:59 AM
i agree with you. both jay and kyle will see their games have to change for their new situations. i think kyle benefits from these changes much more than jay does.

i'm not saying kyle will play to the level of jay, or that he will be THE reason we win football games. i am saying that it is my opinion that kyle orton will not hold the broncos back because of his play, and with time, comfort, and growth as a player, he may soon be an above average passer, especially with McD's QB magic.

the defense is still an issue, but like i've said before, i think we've upgraded the most important position on defense by getting mike nolan. even if he's average as a DC, he's 100 times better for the broncos than bob slowik was. take that upgrade, with the upgrade to our running game, as well as the upgrades that we DID get in FA and the draft on defense, and i expect lots of improvement. great? probably not... better? absolutely.

I'm not as confident in the 'mcdaniel QB magic' as you are. I also am betting our OL doesn't appear to play as well this season as it did last. One being the QB behind center. So although most like to claim we have the 'best OL in the NFL'.... I would have to see a repeat perfomence of last years great stats to really make that claim. One year can simply be an aberration and not a pattern.

CoachChaz
04-28-2009, 12:00 PM
I really dont think we have to hold Orton to being a game manager. I think he has the tools to take the offense and run all over defenses. He's not going to throw anything 90 miles an hour, but he's smart enough to not have to.

I think he's going to do great

Northman
04-28-2009, 12:01 PM
I think Orton will be ok as well. He's going to go through shock when he realizes he has more than 2 seconds to throw the ball.

CoachChaz
04-28-2009, 12:03 PM
I think Orton will be ok as well. He's going to go through shock when he realizes he has more than 2 seconds to throw the ball.

...and someone taller than 5'9" to throw it to.

roomemp
04-28-2009, 12:07 PM
Well. I admit I took your post and basically 'conformed' it to represent the same knocks I've been reading over and over again on the boards, and wasn't just responding to YOUR post.

But the offense philosophies were just so different from the two teams. The Bears had the benefit of saying "if its not there, throw it away and our give our defense a chance to hold them." Denver didn't have that benefit. ITs MUCH easier to be safe with the ball when you know your defense stand HALF a chance of holding someone.

Our defense gave up 30+ points in 9 games last season, and 15 of the last 32. Hard for a QB to feel as though EVERY series isn't one to PUSH for when every other game the team gives up 30+ points. I think that DOES play into the mentality of the players (not just the QB, but the entire offense that was filled with YOUNG players).

I just think I hear this "he forced balls" far too often. We would see people complain that he 'threw into triple coverage' a lot around the boards... but when in reality he didn't, people react to the 'converging' defensive players instead of really seeing the coverage. Sure he forced balls. Absolutely he did. QBs do that. I just think its an over-used statement.

Kyle is what he is. I get that. I get being positive and hoping for the best. I DO know taht we won't be putting the game on Kyle's shoulders like we did Jay's... and Kyle will be more of a Plummer type QB. Thats fine, if we can get the defense to be somewhat....anywhere near... a resemblence of an NFL defense. Then we can let Kyle be Kyle without having to ask him to do more than what we really wantof him to do. Because if our defense gives up as many points as we did the last two years, I don't think you see Kyle being as 'protective' of the ball as he appeared to be in Chicago.

Cutler most certainly tried to force the ball into tight windows. A lot of the time it wasn't even necessary . Cutler forcing the ball had nothing to do with the defense. He is and always will be a big risk taker. Saying that, so did Favre and look what kind of legacy he has.

Tned-Mobile
04-28-2009, 12:10 PM
Well. I admit I took your post and basically 'conformed' it to represent the same knocks I've been reading over and over again on the boards, and wasn't just responding to YOUR post.

But the offense philosophies were just so different from the two teams. The Bears had the benefit of saying "if its not there, throw it away and our give our defense a chance to hold them." Denver didn't have that benefit. ITs MUCH easier to be safe with the ball when you know your defense stand HALF a chance of holding someone.

Our defense gave up 30+ points in 9 games last season, and 15 of the last 32. Hard for a QB to feel as though EVERY series isn't one to PUSH for when every other game the team gives up 30+ points. I think that DOES play into the mentality of the players (not just the QB, but the entire offense that was filled with YOUNG players).

I just think I hear this "he forced balls" far too often. We would see people complain that he 'threw into triple coverage' a lot around the boards... but when in reality he didn't, people react to the 'converging' defensive players instead of really seeing the coverage. Sure he forced balls. Absolutely he did. QBs do that. I just think its an over-used statement.

Kyle is what he is. I get that. I get being positive and hoping for the best. I DO know taht we won't be putting the game on Kyle's shoulders like we did Jay's... and Kyle will be more of a Plummer type QB. Thats fine, if we can get the defense to be somewhat....anywhere near... a resemblence of an NFL defense. Then we can let Kyle be Kyle without having to ask him to do more than what we really wantof him to do. Because if our defense gives up as many points as we did the last two years, I don't think you see Kyle being as 'protective' of the ball as he appeared to be in Chicago.

some of you guys need to stop assuming. Many of us think losing Jay was a huge mistake, but that doesn't keep us from looking at the positives that Orton brings, or McD has done. At the same time we can see and point out the mistakes Jay made, or McD has made since taking over.

Might be time for some of you guys to stop stereotyping other posters and responding based on where you think the poster is coming from, vs. what they say.

This shit ain't black and white, there are a crap load of grey.

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 12:12 PM
some of you guys need to stop assuming. Many of us think losing Jay was a huge mistake, but that doesn't keep us from looking at the positives that Orton brings, or McD has done. At the same time we can see and point out the mistakes Jay made, or McD has made since taking over.

Might be time for some of you guys to stop stereotyping other posters and responding based on where you think the poster is coming from, vs. what they say.

This shit ain't black and white, there are a crap load of grey.

Responding to one poster and 'referring' to the common isn't a bad thing. Otherwise you would have to quote everyone all the time to say a response that still fits the discussion.

I mean.. why would you quote me, and then say "you guys".. or "some of you guys"..... coudln't you have just posted it without a quote and said the same thing?

you were using my post as an example...right? Same thing.

NightTrainLayne
04-28-2009, 12:13 PM
some of you guys need to stop assuming. Many of us think losing Jay was a huge mistake, but that doesn't keep us from looking at the positives that Orton brings, or McD has done. At the same time we can see and point out the mistakes Jay made, or McD has made since taking over.

Might be time for some of you guys to stop stereotyping other posters and responding based on where you think the poster is coming from, vs. what they say.

This shit ain't black and white, there are a crap load of grey.

It's virtually all gray.

sanluis
04-28-2009, 12:14 PM
I am going to start up front.

Denver has a great O-line IMO. They protect the QB and run block very well. Now with the addition of a ultra talented running back the O-line becomes a clock eating weapon. Beating down opposing teams D. Last year even with all the running backs used the average per carry for Denver was very good. Having an advantage in the TOP is huge and that is what I think this o-line and new coaching staff is going to try to bring to Denver.

The O-line is going to make the D-line better by keeping the D off the field. I am also concerned that Denver switching to the 3-4 will help their run D. The 3-4 makes it harder for the O-line to identify their assignments and is very disruptive to teams blocking schemes.

I see Denver struggling early a bit as all the new changes get worked out and then Denver coming on by mid-season. I would not be surprised at all with Denver winning the west. I think Tned makes a very good argument for Denver. Especially when you look at Denver's O-line. If that front stays healthy again Denver will do well and be in most every game IMO.

honz
04-28-2009, 12:42 PM
I personally watch and judge the QB based on his play on the field... watching the games. I was never a fan of the QB that took us to the AFC Championship, because his play scared me to death every time he dropped back to pass.

I feel pretty much the same way about Orton. I just don't get excited about the player.

I loved Jay, but he scared me to death as well.

honz
04-28-2009, 12:46 PM
...and someone taller than 5'9" to throw it to.
...that isn't a converted CB.

NameUsedBefore
04-28-2009, 01:03 PM
What teams will Denver be beating?

MileHighWrath
04-28-2009, 01:04 PM
I'll make the same prediction I make every year prior to the beginning of the regular season:

The Denver Broncos will go 16-0 and win the Superbowl.

Tned-Mobile
04-28-2009, 01:07 PM
I really dont think we have to hold Orton to being a game manager. I think he has the tools to take the offense and run all over defenses. He's not going to throw anything 90 miles an hour, but he's smart enough to not have to.

I think he's going to do great

I don't mean manager in the derogatory way people slammed Jake in his best Denver season.

I man rather than the Elway/Favre gunslinger mode, he'll be more an Aikman, Brady, Montana type QB in how he runs an offemse. Also not saying he will have their success or skills, but their style of play rather than the strong arm gunslinger.

TXBRONC
04-28-2009, 01:11 PM
I don't mean manager in the derogatory way people slammed Jake in his best Denver season.

I man rather than the Elway/Favre gunslinger mode, he'll be more an Aikman, Brady, Montana type QB in how he runs an offemse. Also not saying he will have their success or skills, but their style of play rather than the strong arm gunslinger.

I admit I'm skeptical of Orton but if he can produce positive results that's all that will really matter.

broncofaninfla
04-28-2009, 01:15 PM
I'm all for optimism and root for us to go undefeated every season but we have a totally overhauled team with a new coach and new schemes on both sides of the ball. We still don't have all of the peices we need on defense now and we have a lot of questions at QB. Add that to what appears to be a brutal schedule and we are going to have out work cut out for us. San Diego is still the team to beat and I'm not sure we have the people in place to pull that off just yet.

silkamilkamonico
04-28-2009, 01:17 PM
I like Cutler the football player and think he's an incredible talent, but some of you guys are on f'n crack if you think he alone is the difference between a top ranked offense statistically, and some average to below average offense that's not dynamic.

underrated29
04-28-2009, 01:24 PM
All orton has to do is hit the open man. It will really be that simple. With our scheme and the talent that we boast on offense he just needs to identify which person/persons will be open and get them the ball.

There is no way a defense will be able to cover brandon,royal,stokes,gaff,shceff,graham and moreno all at once. Someone or several people will be open on almost all plays. On the occasion that someone isnt open he can throw it away and try again or try to run for a few yards.

But our talent is ridiculous right now, and with our impenatrable big uglies upfront he will have plenty of time to figure out who will be open.

So yes i would use the word manager for orton in this case too. Because he just needs to sit back, read his reads and make a throw, or dump off. Now times will come when he will need to put the game in his hands and make the comeback drives. I have enough confidence in him to do that.

This will be an exciting year for sure. If we can score agaisnt 10 of the top defenses from last year- i think that we will truely be a few players away (on defense) from a championship team.

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 01:26 PM
All orton has to do is hit the open man. It will really be that simple. With our scheme and the talent that we boast on offense he just needs to identify which person/persons will be open and get them the ball.

There is no way a defense will be able to cover brandon,royal,stokes,gaff,shceff,graham and moreno all at once. Someone or several people will be open on almost all plays. On the occasion that someone isnt open he can throw it away and try again or try to run for a few yards.

But our talent is ridiculous right now, and with our impenatrable big uglies upfront he will have plenty of time to figure out who will be open.

So yes i would use the word manager for orton in this case too. Because he just needs to sit back, read his reads and make a throw, or dump off. Now times will come when he will need to put the game in his hands and make the comeback drives. I have enough confidence in him to do that.

This will be an exciting year for sure. If we can score agaisnt 10 of the top defenses from last year- i think that we will truely be a few players away (on defense) from a championship team.

wow.. thats it. Thats all. Its just as simple as that. Weird how there aren't more successful at the hardest position in professional sports when its just this easy.

Tned-Mobile
04-28-2009, 01:32 PM
wow.. thats it. Thats all. Its just as simple as that. Weird how there aren't more successful at the hardest position in professional sports when its just this easy.

As an 'example', maybe you can practice by making the same point without the sarcasm and attempt to slice up your fellow Bronco fan.

I' getting more and more complaints about a small number of posters that choose to tear down posters with opposing views, rather simply presenting counter points.

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 01:35 PM
As an 'example', maybe you can practice by making the same point without the sarcasm and attempt to slice up your fellow Bronco fan.

I' getting more and more complaints about a small number of posters that choose to tear down posters with opposing views, rather simply presenting counter points.

Thanks for giving the example of how to keep things dignified. The last moderator at least came to me in private and asked things to be toned down. I guess some moderators, as well as poster.... approach things differently. :beer:

T.K.O.
04-28-2009, 01:36 PM
orton is a very accurate and smart qb with a quick release,he should do very well in mcd's scheme.and again i must say he only has 2 years playing exp. so no judgement can realistically be made as to how he will compare to greise,plummer or even cutler for all we know he will be the winningest qb in franchise history. doubtful...but possible.
i think if moreno can stay healthy and we get back to a dominant run game it will definately help improve our defense if for no other reason than they'll be on the field less.
and i do think we have a chance to win the division,we almost did last year with the worst d in team history and being 16th in the league in scoring on offense.
it wont take alot to improve on either side of the ball this year!
sure on paper we have a tougher schedule but we all know how quickly that turns around and i dont care who we play from week to week,its 60 minutes of who wants it more and i think this team will be out to prove alot of "experts" and "fans " wrong.
i like our chances !

weazel
04-28-2009, 01:39 PM
MIKE MAYOCK say's we're going 5-11... I couldn't imagine anyone arguing that!

Tned-Mobile
04-28-2009, 01:45 PM
Thanks for giving the example of how to keep things dignified. The last moderator at least came to me in private and asked things to be toned down. I guess some moderators, as well as poster.... approach things differently. :beer:

Your welcome. The important thing is that we start getting our points across without trying to tear other posters down.

We are all broncos fans, sometimes we seem to forget that.

underrated29
04-28-2009, 01:48 PM
wow.. thats it. Thats all. Its just as simple as that. Weird how there aren't more successful at the hardest position in professional sports when its just this easy.


As an 'example', maybe you can practice by making the same point without the sarcasm and attempt to slice up your fellow Bronco fan.

I' getting more and more complaints about a small number of posters that choose to tear down posters with opposing views, rather simply presenting counter points.



Tned i can handle rav. besides even though he is how he is i like his takes- when he isnt an ahole;):beer:


yea- Rav- thats all that he has to do here pretty much. Per the reasons i discussed. Someone is always bound to be open. We have to much firepower not too. Of course reading the defenses, knowing the routes and the check offs, where pressure is comming; but what QB doesnt have to do that on a regular basis? Kyle seemed to do that fine with the bears- why wouldnt it be even easier here with more time and better WR- and RB!?

honz
04-28-2009, 01:55 PM
What teams will Denver be beating?

About 8 or 9 of them. Hopefully no home losses to the Faiders...

T.K.O.
04-28-2009, 01:55 PM
MIKE MAYOCK say's we're going 5-11... I couldn't imagine anyone arguing that!

i'll argue that...when was the last time we were 5-11,and what did we do to get so much worse this offseason?
its safe to say we will have a smarter ,fresher offensive gameplan,an improved stable of backs,better recieving corps.(marshall and royal have another years exp. and we added gaffney ) we should be improved in the secondary,our o-line has had a year together to "gel", and our D has to be better as a whole because they just cant stink it up like last season.
so i dont believe we will only win 5 games,especially if we ( as we are expected to ) come out of the gates hot and win our 1st 3...if we do i think we will be a young team with a taste for winning and could do as well as 10-6 realistically !:salute:

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 01:57 PM
Tned i can handle rav. besides even though he is how he is i like his takes- when he isnt an ahole;):beer:


yea- Rav- thats all that he has to do here pretty much. Per the reasons i discussed. Someone is always bound to be open. We have to much firepower not too. Of course reading the defenses, knowing the routes and the check offs, where pressure is comming; but what QB doesnt have to do that on a regular basis? Kyle seemed to do that fine with the bears- why wouldnt it be even easier here with more time and better WR- and RB!?

Well. as I was eluding to... I think you make it sound pretty simple. I mean, I wish it was just as simple as 'just hit the open guy.' If it were just that easy, the QB wouldn't be considered the hardest position to play in professional sports.

I honestly ddon't have anything against Kyle. I have watched him play quite a bit last season, but can't say that Iwatched him a LOT... not as much as the guys in KC, St Louis, and Denver.... but thats due to the region of whats played. From what I've seen and know, he obviously isn't the guy we want to put the game on his shoulders. So I'm not saying he can't succeed, I'm saying that if our defense gives up as many points as it did the last 2 years, he isn't a guy that can take the team on his pads.

But I hope things can be as simple as "simply hit the open receiver".. that would be... great

powderaddict
04-28-2009, 02:08 PM
There is no way a defense will be able to cover brandon,royal,stokes,gaff,shceff,graham and moreno all at once.

Let's see, those guys plus the QB is 8 players. If there's only 3 people blocking, defenses won't have to worry about covering any of them at all :P

But yeah, I get your point and agree. The offense has the potential to be very explosive. The NFL's history is littered with QB's that were average/below average that played much better in a different offense, and with better players.

WARHORSE
04-28-2009, 03:23 PM
Mike Shanahan was a great coach at getting QBs to play to their optimum. Jake Plummer is the most obvious illustration of that for us Broncos fans, but everywhere Mike went, the QBs played better.


Im really hoping that McDaniels can do the same, and I think he can. Cassell is the only representative of that to date, simply because some will say Brady played better cause of Moss and Welker.

But I think Kyle Orton is in a much better situation, and I also think he can play better cause I dont think the coaches in Chicago on the offensive side of the ball match up to what we have here, whether with the QBs, the Oline or the RBs.

And we have better WRs than Chicago.

Lets not forget about Chris Simms either, Im not convinced that Orton will beat him out although I think its probable. But both guys will be getting equal reps, and gametime will be the difference. Orton has been playing and facing NFL defenses a lot more lately than Simms, so he has the leg up. But still..............its not like Simms doesnt have talent.


On Cutlers side, Im really hoping that the lack of good WRs will cause their offense to stumble, and hopefully he blows up at his teamates........and gets all their jocks jumbled up in their butt cracks. I hope he gets hit more, and I hope he gets sacked more...............I hope.

Id like a good pick in next years draft.

Broncolingus
04-28-2009, 04:01 PM
Love the optimism, T...

Killer schedule, NOTHING done about the defensive line or front seven for that matter, Chargers look to be as strong or better this year, unproven QB situation, and on-and-on, and oh by the way, a rookie head coach who is to say the least unproven if not unorthodox...

I'm hoping for 11-12 wins this year...

...guessing, it'll be more like 5-6.

TWT

BigDaddyBronco
04-28-2009, 04:26 PM
My biggest hope for winning the division rests in the offenses ability to play ball control, eat up clock, not turn the ball over, and score points.

If these things are done it will keep the defense off the field and out of bad positions and we should win a fair number of games.

If not, or if the ST is horrid again, our defense will struggle and the offense will have to throw it around to try and come back and we will lose more than win.

So to me it comes down to things like time of possession, turnover margin, and the ratio of touchdowns to total yardage (or how efficient the offense is).

T.K.O.
04-28-2009, 04:44 PM
Love the optimism, T...

Killer schedule, NOTHING done about the defensive line or front seven for that matter, Chargers look to be as strong or better this year, unproven QB situation, and on-and-on, and oh by the way, a rookie head coach who is to say the least unproven if not unorthodox...

I'm hoping for 11-12 wins this year...

...guessing, it'll be more like 5-6.

TWT

chargers were supposed to make a sb run last year and only made the playoffs because we had a monumental collapse at the end of the year,i dont see where they have improved anymore than we have so i say the division is an absolute toss up,and i'm not sure you can count kc out either they are probably the most improved team in the west on paper this offseason.and the raiders....well they're still the raiders;)

weazel
04-28-2009, 04:56 PM
i'll argue that...when was the last time we were 5-11,and what did we do to get so much worse this offseason?
its safe to say we will have a smarter ,fresher offensive gameplan,an improved stable of backs,better recieving corps.(marshall and royal have another years exp. and we added gaffney ) we should be improved in the secondary,our o-line has had a year together to "gel", and our D has to be better as a whole because they just cant stink it up like last season.
so i dont believe we will only win 5 games,especially if we ( as we are expected to ) come out of the gates hot and win our 1st 3...if we do i think we will be a young team with a taste for winning and could do as well as 10-6 realistically !:salute:

you can't argue what Mayock say's! He's "THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS".... or so I'm told. :coffee:

LoyalSoldier
04-28-2009, 05:00 PM
you can't argue what Mayock say's! He's "THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS".... or so I'm told. :coffee:

Weazel honestly, that joke was old a long time ago and I am sick of seeing it. Get over it.

weazel
04-28-2009, 05:03 PM
Weazel honestly, that joke was old a long time ago and I am sick of seeing it. Get over it.

I'm sick of seeing your girlfriend with a hat or sweater on, but I wasn't going to say anything :salute:

I gotcha though, no more Mayock...

honz
04-28-2009, 05:05 PM
you can't argue what Mayock say's! He's "THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS".... or so I'm told. :coffee:

I LOL'ed...........................4 days ago. :coffee:

weazel
04-28-2009, 05:07 PM
I LOL'ed...........................4 days ago. :coffee:

so now you guys are seeing how I feel. I dont give a crap what Mayock say's , but all we seen on here for a week is peoples opinions on players that they copy and pasted off of Mayock's mock drafts.

...and that was whole point on doing it. Glad you see it now.

honz
04-28-2009, 05:09 PM
so now you guys are seeing how I feel. I dont give a crap what Mayock say's , but all we seen on here for a week is peoples opinions on players that they copy and pasted off of Mayock's mock drafts.
Except for the opinions of other draft gurus and personal opinions of our posters that have been posted...

Mayock tends to be right about a lot of things, which is probably why his opinion tends to be valued.

spikerman
04-28-2009, 05:10 PM
I REALLY hope I'm wrong about this, but I think the Broncos may be slugging it out with the Raiders for last place in the AFCW. :frown:

bcbronc
04-28-2009, 05:10 PM
so now you guys are seeing how I feel. I dont give a crap what Mayock say's , but all we seen on here for a week is peoples opinions on players that they copy and pasted off of Mayock's mock drafts.

...and that was whole point on doing it. Glad you see it now.

it's a reference point for conversation. common ground if you will.

T.K.O.
04-28-2009, 05:11 PM
I REALLY hope I'm wrong about this, but I think the Broncos may be slugging it out with the Raiders for last place in the AFCW. :frown:

in my best cleveland voice " thats just NASTY !"

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 05:14 PM
in my best cleveland voice " thats just NASTY !"

Grover Cleveland?

Watchthemiddle
04-28-2009, 05:23 PM
Hey at this point..our D can't do anything but get better...and our Offense might actually be better than 17th in the league in scoring.

There is no reason to not be optimistic.

New phylosiphy, new schemes, new mindset...new everything.

As Bronco fans, we have thought a certain way for the past 14 years...

The new coach comes in and says he is going to change things and change things he has done.

Maybe as Bronco fans and our spoiled way of thinking for the past 14 years, its time to change ourselves. I am hyped over this upcoming season. I think Tned is correct. I actually think we will be better than 8-8 or 9-7.

The message in the locker room is new...its not stale. There is a plan...you just gotta see the Big Picture...;)

T.K.O.
04-28-2009, 05:27 PM
Grover Cleveland?

no cleveland from family guy....:laugh:

Krugan
04-28-2009, 06:08 PM
Hey at this point..our D can't do anything but get better...and our Offense might actually be better than 17th in the league in scoring.

There is no reason to not be optimistic.

New phylosiphy, new schemes, new mindset...new everything.

As Bronco fans, we have thought a certain way for the past 14 years...

The new coach comes in and says he is going to change things and change things he has done.

Maybe as Bronco fans and our spoiled way of thinking for the past 14 years, its time to change ourselves. I am hyped over this upcoming season. I think Tned is correct. I actually think we will be better than 8-8 or 9-7.

The message in the locker room is new...its not stale. There is a plan...you just gotta see the Big Picture...;)

Ohh, the D has plenty of room to get worse, we werent last in every catagory.

LoyalSoldier
04-28-2009, 06:14 PM
I'm sick of seeing your girlfriend with a hat or sweater on, but I wasn't going to say anything :salute:

*Yawn*:coffee:


I gotcha though, no more Mayock...

I haven't said a single word about Mayock and I still am getting sick of seeing it.

LoyalSoldier
04-28-2009, 06:15 PM
Hey at this point..our D can't do anything but get better...and our Offense might actually be better than 17th in the league in scoring.

After saying that all of the last offseason, I am very reluctant to say it any more.

Ravage!!!
04-28-2009, 06:18 PM
After saying that all of the last offseason, I am very reluctant to say it any more.

I was thinking the same thing. Seems we all believed that last year... 'How could the defense get any worse, it HAS to get better....'....

The only thing that makes me concerned about getting worse is that we will be relying on a lot of young players, and changing systems. Changing from a 43 to a 34 is a very hard change to make.

WARHORSE
04-28-2009, 07:40 PM
The Broncos schedule is going to be tough, no matter how you look at it.

But thats part of football. You gotta play your way around it.

The Broncos are an NFL football team, and they simply have to have their "A" games on each sunday.


It can be done, and I believe we can do it.

Tned
04-28-2009, 07:42 PM
Love the optimism, T...

Killer schedule, NOTHING done about the defensive line or front seven for that matter, Chargers look to be as strong or better this year, unproven QB situation, and on-and-on, and oh by the way, a rookie head coach who is to say the least unproven if not unorthodox...

I'm hoping for 11-12 wins this year...

...guessing, it'll be more like 5-6.

TWT

Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to mortgage my house and then go bet that money at Vegas on an AFC West title, but I do think that we have a good chance. Our schedule is brutal, but the Charger's is only slightly easier (except that you could argue they play us, which is easier than us playing them).

Our defense almost certainly will improve, it's just a matter of how much. Our O-line, with the young tackles and RG, are going to be a year older and better. Moreno is expected by many to produce as a rookie. McDaniels is a very creative offensive mind, and he has a lot of weapons to play with -- assuming that Orton can run the offense effectively.

There is actually reason for optimism. With our schedule, I think 8-9 wins would be a very good outcome, which due to that schedule, could win the West.


so now you guys are seeing how I feel. I dont give a crap what Mayock say's , but all we seen on here for a week is peoples opinions on players that they copy and pasted off of Mayock's mock drafts.

...and that was whole point on doing it. Glad you see it now.

Just because you don't like some people posting and discussing what NFL and Draft 'experts' say about the Broncos and draft prospects, DOES NOT give you the right to spam the forum with your non-humorous cracks.


Hey at this point..our D can't do anything but get better...and our Offense might actually be better than 17th in the league in scoring.

There is no reason to not be optimistic.

New phylosiphy, new schemes, new mindset...new everything.

As Bronco fans, we have thought a certain way for the past 14 years...

The new coach comes in and says he is going to change things and change things he has done.

Maybe as Bronco fans and our spoiled way of thinking for the past 14 years, its time to change ourselves. I am hyped over this upcoming season. I think Tned is correct. I actually think we will be better than 8-8 or 9-7.

The message in the locker room is new...its not stale. There is a plan...you just gotta see the Big Picture...;)

If we weren't playing the NFC East, AFC North (I think it's North with Pitt, Balt, etc), Indy and NE, I might feel we could even do better than 8 or 9 wins, but the fact is that on paper the AFC Wests schedule is brutal.

Having said that, if Nolan can put a middle of the pack defense on the field, and Orton plays like he did in the first seven games last year, we could surprise some people.


I was thinking the same thing. Seems we all believed that last year... 'How could the defense get any worse, it HAS to get better....'....

The only thing that makes me concerned about getting worse is that we will be relying on a lot of young players, and changing systems. Changing from a 43 to a 34 is a very hard change to make.

True, it 'could' always get worse, but by some measures, we had one of the worst defenses in league history. We didn't finish dead last, but those that take into account the offensive production, time on field, etc. make a strong case that our defense was by far the worst in the league.

Broncospsycho77
04-28-2009, 08:41 PM
Chargers will win at the very least 10 games this year. Each year something's just been off until it clicks mid-to-late season for them; this year they should be able to get over that, pending injuries again.

I do think, however, we will see some flashes of what's to come. Just glimpses... it might feel like the first 10 games that Cutler played for us, but we'll for sure see some progress. I also refuse to use the word "gel" at any time to describe the defense's progress.

T.K.O.
04-28-2009, 08:44 PM
except they know lt's declining thats why they wanted moreno....we just snagged him while they were'nt expecting it....now the division is ours i say OURS!

Shazam!
04-28-2009, 08:49 PM
SD is due to flop either by injuries, aging roster, or whatever.

If Denver does make the Playoffs or finish better than 8-8, I want a "Josh McDaniels Apology Thread" ASAP.

TXBRONC
04-28-2009, 09:00 PM
Our defense almost certainly will improve, it's just a matter of how much. Our O-line, with the young tackles and RG, are going to be a year older and better. Moreno is expected by many to produce as a rookie. McDaniels is a very creative offensive mind, and he has a lot of weapons to play with -- assuming that Orton can run the offense effectively.

That's seems solid to me. I would add that being on the plus side of the turnover battle couldn't hurt either.

Tned
04-28-2009, 09:10 PM
SD is due to flop either by injuries, aging roster, or whatever.

If Denver does make the Playoffs or finish better than 8-8, I want a "Josh McDaniels Apology Thread" ASAP.

That's his job. He's supposed to win. ;)

TXBRONC
04-28-2009, 09:13 PM
That's his job. He's supposed to win. ;)

:nod:

Watchthemiddle
04-28-2009, 11:36 PM
I was thinking the same thing. Seems we all believed that last year... 'How could the defense get any worse, it HAS to get better....'....

The only thing that makes me concerned about getting worse is that we will be relying on a lot of young players, and changing systems. Changing from a 43 to a 34 is a very hard change to make.

Well we might have had the talent all along they just needed to be coached. Now I'm not saying Nolan has all the answers but its a fresh concept. New scheme. These guys might just need to be coached up.

shank
04-28-2009, 11:40 PM
Well we might have had the talent all along they just needed to be coached. Now I'm not saying Nolan has all the answers but its a fresh concept. New scheme. These guys might just need to be coached up.

exactly... moss was a consensus 1st rounder. crowder was consensus 2nd rounder. thomas had 1st round talent.

we have failed to develop players on the d line with such consistency, that it became clear that there was a reason. having a new, proven d line coach, and a successful DC will help a lot, or at the very least will finally reveal if the players we have are just not talented enough to form a good NFL defense.

Shazam!
04-29-2009, 12:08 AM
having a new, proven d line coach, and a successful DC will help a lot, or at the very least will finally reveal if the players we have are just not talented enough to form a good NFL defense.

Now over 10 years ago, John Teerlinick bought out the best of what 'experts and analysts' said was a bunch of ragtag D-linemen on the last legs of their careers (Smith, Traylor, Williams, etc).

horsepig
04-29-2009, 12:37 AM
Does anybody remember Al Wilson, DJ, and somebody else arguing about missed assignments while (I think it was Stokely) the Colts receiver got up and ran it to the house.

I don't expect that kind of shi@ fr0m thenew bunch. No more undersized position players.

LoyalSoldier
04-29-2009, 12:40 AM
Does anybody remember Al Wilson, DJ, and somebody else arguing about missed assignments while (I think it was Stokely) the Colts receiver got up and ran it to the house.

I don't expect that kind of shi@ fr0m thenew bunch. No more undersized position players.

It was Deltha O' Neil, the safety, and Wilson. That was the year before DJ was drafted. Second it was a case of everyone thought everyone else touched him down. Third some of those players were gone after that game.

omac
04-29-2009, 01:25 AM
SD is due to flop either by injuries, aging roster, or whatever.

The thing with SD is that they're loaded with talented veterans, because they've drafted in the top 10 or even the top 5 a lot before. These past 2 seasons, specially last season, Norv's been kind of an idiot. Under Marty, they were a much more physical team, but under Norv, they keep starting the season with finesse instead of working with their strengths. They later fall back on what their team was assembled to do, and start winning the later games.

I doubt Norv does the same mistake 3 seasons in a row. It is a good thing, though, that they weren't able to get Moreno. With Merriman back, and maybe because of the addition of English, they'll have a pretty deadly pass rush again.

Gamechanger
04-29-2009, 01:31 AM
Does anybody remember Al Wilson, DJ, and somebody else arguing about missed assignments while (I think it was Stokely) the Colts receiver got up and ran it to the house.

I don't expect that kind of shi@ fr0m thenew bunch. No more undersized position players.

Marvin Harrison you are thinking

and boy that was one hell of a play :pound:

and how can you say you "don't expect" that? heck, one of the guys may miss the assignment COMPLETELY and the guy will take it to the house, then what? you expect that?

I expect our new D. Tackles shoot gaps and not stand up but if it happens it happens

slim
04-29-2009, 02:16 AM
Denver has a new Quarterback, Defensive scheme, Offensive scheme, coaching staff and 1/3rd of our roster from last year has changed.. There is going to be an adjustment period.. whether you all want to accept it or not.

With the Shawne Merriman situation these days a knee surgery isnt much to worry about...esspecially if you have 20+ months to recover... Im pretty sure they will get atleast 10+ sacks out of him... and LT had knee and toe problems going into the season last year... I dont see that happening this year.

Also.. They have a quarterback named Phillip Rivers, a top 10 Quarterback in this league. They are just the better team right now, I hate to say it but its the truth.. Its not like they are Superbowl contenders, they're far from it...They are just better then 3 very weak teams who are in a rebuilding stage... I'm not worried about it though.. give it a couple years and I see this Denver dominating the AFC West once again.

You do realize that Norv coaches the team, right?

Den21vsBal19
04-29-2009, 04:12 AM
I'll have some of what T's drinking/smoking :D

Seriously, this year, I'm almost not worried about our final record. Yes, I want to win, but more than anything I want to see an improvement in attitude this year.

More Heart, More Passion, TACKLING!!!!!, Orginisation & an end to the blowouts that have plagued us over the last couple of seasons :mad:

If we finished the season say 5-11, but the losses were within a score or so, and we'd played hard, I can live with that....................just no more 55-21 or 41-6 blowouts :pray:

Tned
04-29-2009, 07:08 AM
Does anybody remember Al Wilson, DJ, and somebody else arguing about missed assignments while (I think it was Stokely) the Colts receiver got up and ran it to the house.

I don't expect that kind of shi@ fr0m thenew bunch. No more undersized position players.

I'll never forget that. I think it might have been before DJ's time, but maybe not. I'm pretty sure it was the first Colt's playoff blow out. It was said. He was down at the 20 or so, and nobody touched him down, because they were too busy yelling about each other.

Tned
04-29-2009, 07:09 AM
I'll have some of what T's drinking/smoking :D

Seriously, this year, I'm almost not worried about our final record. Yes, I want to win, but more than anything I want to see an improvement in attitude this year.

More Heart, More Passion, TACKLING!!!!!, Orginisation & an end to the blowouts that have plagued us over the last couple of seasons :mad:

If we finished the season say 5-11, but the losses were within a score or so, and we'd played hard, I can live with that....................just no more 55-21 or 41-6 blowouts :pray:

The thing with this years schedule, at least on paper and based on last year and teams like Cincy that should be better than last year, we could play well and only win 5 games.

Dirk
04-29-2009, 07:10 AM
The thing with this years schedule, at least on paper and based on last year and teams like Cincy that should be better than last year, we could play well and only win 5 games.

So True! Like I said before if we get to .500 I will be extremely pleased!

Den21vsBal19
04-29-2009, 07:14 AM
The thing with this years schedule, at least on paper and based on last year and teams like Cincy that should be better than last year, we could play well and only win 5 games.
I'm cool with that, as long as they play well. This team needs a severe attitude adjustment before it's going to get anywhere.

I'd be happier loosing 11 games by a total or around 20-30 points total than that abortion of a final three games we put together last season :mad:

Tned
04-29-2009, 07:33 AM
The thing with SD is that they're loaded with talented veterans, because they've drafted in the top 10 or even the top 5 a lot before. These past 2 seasons, specially last season, Norv's been kind of an idiot. Under Marty, they were a much more physical team, but under Norv, they keep starting the season with finesse instead of working with their strengths. They later fall back on what their team was assembled to do, and start winning the later games.

I doubt Norv does the same mistake 3 seasons in a row. It is a good thing, though, that they weren't able to get Moreno. With Merriman back, and maybe because of the addition of English, they'll have a pretty deadly pass rush again.

I can't remember if I mentioned this in my first post, because I focused it on the Broncos, but I know I was thinking it. This year will show us if SD's defensive drop off was due to Merriman being out, OR I would contend, it is the loss of Wade Phillips.

While I don't consider Phillips a good head coach, I do think he is a good DC.

Phillips took over as interim head coach in 2002, and then was DC from 2004-2006.

Defensive rank:
30th 2002
27th 2003
18th 2004
13th 2005
10th 2006
14th 2007
25th 2008

The defense got much better when he became DC, and has now slid for two years in a row. Again, last year, the Merrimen loss was big, so they could bounce back, but it is also possible that the loss of Phillips was a big blow.

TXBRONC
04-29-2009, 08:01 AM
I can't remember if I mentioned this in my first post, because I focused it on the Broncos, but I know I was thinking it. This year will show us if SD's defensive drop off was due to Merriman being out, OR I would contend, it is the loss of Wade Phillips.

While I don't consider Phillips a good head coach, I do think he is a good DC.

Phillips took over as interim head coach in 2002, and then was DC from 2004-2006.

Defensive rank:
30th 2002
27th 2003
18th 2004
13th 2005
10th 2006
14th 2007
25th 2008

The defense got much better when he became DC, and has now slid for two years in a row. Again, last year, the Merrimen loss was big, so they could bounce back, but it is also possible that the loss of Phillips was a big blow.

I have no doubt Merrimen was a big part of their problem, but they did improve on defense once Ron Rivera was made the defensive coordinator.

BroncosRockdaRockies
04-29-2009, 09:34 AM
I am making the prediction early, before the camps.

The Broncos will win the AFC West with an 8-8 or 9-7 record.

Now, why do I come to this conclusion following the ups and downs of the draft weekend? Several reasons.

First, the fact that the Broncos did not go into the draft with an aggressive plan to beef up the front 7 tells me that they are either incompetent, building for future years, or already believe the front 7 can win this year. I am leaning towards the third option.

Second, the moves made during the draft did not appear to be panicked moves, or moves to fill a position at any cost. Again, this brings us to incompetent, building for the future or feeling they are ready to win.

So, with that out of the way, and after going through the "this guy must thinks he's a genius, but out of touch with reality", phase, I took another look at things.

Offense:

We had a very good offense, sans a go to RB. The off season moves were to bring in three free agent, solid backs, to go with Hillis and Torrain. That did a solid job of solidifying the running game, but probably didn't make it dynamic.

Then, we trade Jay for Orton, which would appear to be a fair drop off in talent, but real question isn't about physical talent differences, but what the drop in production will become under Orton vs. Cutler.

Now, since McDaniels runs a spread/ball control offense, relying heavily on one and two tight end sets for QB protection and run blocking and three or four wide receivers, which relies on an intelligent QB that can make pre-snap reads and excel in the short medium pass game, it is a 'system' that Orton 'could' succeed in. Talking heads like Peter King of SI, have said that McDaniels really wanted Orton and feels so good about him that they did not even consider trying to get Sanchez.

So, we have one of the best lines in the league, one of the best blocking tight ends in the league, a new young blocking tight end, and three very solid WR's (Marshall, Royal and Stokely) and possibly Scheffler out of the tight end and slot positions.

All the pieces in place, but having to rely on an RBBC. First pick is Moreno, a player that could come in and make an immediate impact. Capable of playing on all three downs, including having very good receiving skill for third down catches. He can run between the tackles, and MOST important he is a good pass blocker which is critical in a one back set with a QB that might just need a little extra time.

What I see is an offense that should be able to both move the ball, but more importantly do it in a methodical, time eating manner --- ball control offense.

Then we turn to the defense. Man, weren't we supposed to fix the front seven? Guess not.

Let's take dogs approach and start at the back. Champ is champ. We picked up a solid starting CB to start opposite of him. In addition, we picked up a mean, hard hitting safety in Hawkins. Finally, we picked up someone that I didn't know in much more than name, Renaldo Hill. I initially read some questionable stuff about him, especially related to his range and age. However. last week listening to Sirius NFL, they were recounting a discussion with the Miami DC or HC. They talked about how Hill was beat out in training camp by a younger guy, and the D struggled for a few games, and they put Hill back in, and the defense picked up dramatically and the coach credits hills play for turning the D around. This was being retold talking to a Miami caller, when the hosts were telling the fan that Miami had some big shoes to fill in Hill.

So, the more I read about our various players, I see we should have a solid secondary. Using the build from the back philosophy that Dog described that Nolan uses.

Then, the draft comes, and we pay dearly for a nickel DB, that if he can win a spot, could have an immediate impact when we are playing teams like Indy and NE. Then we bring in a safety with mixed reviews, but is supposed to be ball hawk. He might only be depth, or he might play in three safety, big nickel type packages.

Now we move forward. The front seven. The 800 pound gorilla in the room. Why did McDaniels ignore the biggest need on draft day. Did he?

McD had made a case that he felt they addressed the front in FA. So, what do we have.

The number one question is do we have a nose tackle. The leading contender would have to be free agent Fields, however he hasn't started since '07. It could also be Thomas, although he is a bit light for the position. A very long shot could be UFDA Baker winning that position battle.

We will go the most conservative route. Fields becomes the nose tackle. An adequate nosetackle doesn't have to get penetration, just tie up 650 lbs of a center and guard. We will assume he can do this.

So, with Fields at nose tackle, we have Thomas and ayers at the two end positions, with Peterson/Powell replacing ayers, or in a four men rotation at end.

They are big enough and good enough athletes to play ends in the 3-4.

Now, linebacker. The inside is solid with DJ and Davis, with Larsen and possibly woodyard for depth. That leaves the only real question is how effectively will our four light ends be at transferring to OLB.

Dumerville will obviously have the highest expectation to make the move and should have the skills to do so. Opposite him, the best option is the special teams specialist, Reid Rotating with them, or competing for the job is Crowder and Moss, and of course Boss Bailey will be in the mix as either another option inside, or as an undersized OLB.

So, when you piece it all together, our offense should be less explosive than last year, but has the potential to be more of a ball control offense, and likely a better red zone offense. By being more ball control, and not going for the deep ball as often, the turnovers should be reduced.

Moreno and Quinn make the offense at least as productive as last year' (points and TOP, not necessarily total yards) offense. That ball contrrol offense and longer TOP, means the defense has more time to rest between series.

Our secondary has seen a clear upgrade, and if Smith can start day one as the nickel back, then our secondary should be a significant upgrade over last year.

That brings us back to the front seven.

Can a front seven of Ayers/Powell, Fields, Thomas up front, and Reid/Moss, Davis, DJ, Dumervil succeed in their new 3-4 roles?

The more I have read, looked at the roster, listened to the pressers, read articles about various players, etc., I think that Nolan can put together a solid 3-4 front seven with the combination of players previously on the roster, plus FA's and those drafted.

We have about 9 guys with the physical skills and talent, and while they will need to make some adjustments, like dumervill dropping into coverage, I think they have the coaching staff to teach them.

So, I am officially making the early prediction that we will win the AFC West with a .500 or just over .500 record.


I agree with the pick for the AFCW!

But something I read made me disagree with you about the explosiveness of the Offense being less.

The way I see it is, the Offensive line is going to be more beefed up and more knowledgeable in gametime experiences and what to expect, this year I think they will be able to grasp more of the rush blocking aspects to add to their reportoire.

With Hillis in the Back field and the additions of Buckhalter,Lamont Jordon, Knowshon Moreno and possibly Selvin and Torrain, Teams are going to have to be more disciplined before they decide to blitz this Offense! Which possibly can cause the mismatches for Marshall and Royal in the deep pass play. And if they do blitz then there is going to be mismatches for the quick dump off pass to Hillis or Moreno.

So in short I agree with you except for the fact that I think the Offense will be more explosive in point production and also I believe the 3rd down conversions will be better. My New saying at the games this year will be kinda my version of what Ty says on HomeMakeovers rather than yelling "Move that Bus!" I will be yelling "Move them Chains!"

Great thread TNED!!!!

Ravage!!!
04-29-2009, 09:57 AM
The thing with SD is that they're loaded with talented veterans, because they've drafted in the top 10 or even the top 5 a lot before. These past 2 seasons, specially last season, Norv's been kind of an idiot. Under Marty, they were a much more physical team, but under Norv, they keep starting the season with finesse instead of working with their strengths. They later fall back on what their team was assembled to do, and start winning the later games.

I doubt Norv does the same mistake 3 seasons in a row. It is a good thing, though, that they weren't able to get Moreno. With Merriman back, and maybe because of the addition of English, they'll have a pretty deadly pass rush again.

and have you noticed that they haven't had a very good draft since Schottenheimer left? People kept giving the GM the credit, yet Marty is the one that made the GM in Cleveland look good, and Marty is the one that made Carl Peterson able to keep his job for 20 years in KC as well. I honestly would LOVE a move to hire Marty Schottenheimer as our GM.

Den21vsBal19
04-29-2009, 11:10 AM
and have you noticed that they haven't had a very good draft since Schottenheimer left? People kept giving the GM the credit, yet Marty is the one that made the GM in Cleveland look good, and Marty is the one that made Carl Peterson able to keep his job for 20 years in KC as well. I honestly would LOVE a move to hire Marty Schottenheimer as our GM.
He might have a chance of winning something then, without Denver getting in his way to stop him ;)

Tned
04-29-2009, 11:37 AM
I agree with the pick for the AFCW!

But something I read made me disagree with you about the explosiveness of the Offense being less.

The way I see it is, the Offensive line is going to be more beefed up and more knowledgeable in gametime experiences and what to expect, this year I think they will be able to grasp more of the rush blocking aspects to add to their reportoire.

With Hillis in the Back field and the additions of Buckhalter,Lamont Jordon, Knowshon Moreno and possibly Selvin and Torrain, Teams are going to have to be more disciplined before they decide to blitz this Offense! Which possibly can cause the mismatches for Marshall and Royal in the deep pass play. And if they do blitz then there is going to be mismatches for the quick dump off pass to Hillis or Moreno.

So in short I agree with you except for the fact that I think the Offense will be more explosive in point production and also I believe the 3rd down conversions will be better. My New saying at the games this year will be kinda my version of what Ty says on HomeMakeovers rather than yelling "Move that Bus!" I will be yelling "Move them Chains!"

Great thread TNED!!!!

You make some good points, and one of the things I didn't factor in is that Royal and Marshall are both good YAC guys.

Orton hasn't been impressive with his deep throws, but that could also be do to Chicago's weak pass protection. So, it is possible Orton will do better in Denver.

I do agree on the moving the chains. Before last season, Jay talked about how they worked all off season on decision making, taking the short pass when it was there, just keep the chains moving. While he did a little of that in the first few games, once the offense started putting up big yard and point totals, he seemed to ignore the underneath/dump off routes, and ironically the offensive production and more importantly points, dropped off.

topscribe
04-29-2009, 11:57 AM
You make some good points, and one of the things I didn't factor in is that Royal and Marshall are both good YAC guys.

Orton hasn't been impressive with his deep throws, but that could also be do to Chicago's weak pass protection. So, it is possible Orton will do better in Denver.

I do agree on the moving the chains. Before last season, Jay talked about how they worked all off season on decision making, taking the short pass when it was there, just keep the chains moving. While he did a little of that in the first few games, once the offense started putting up big yard and point totals, he seemed to ignore the underneath/dump off routes, and ironically the offensive production and more importantly points, dropped off.

Orton wasn't impressive with his deep throws because he was bad going deep.
That was a knock on him coming out of college. However, several Chicago
fans have noted that he has improved significantly in that area, and the
several hours I put in studying him (I know, get a life) seemed to verify that.

One thing I have noticed is that Orton can throw deep with touch . . . i.e., he
can put a little more air into it and drop it over the outstretched arms of the
defender. That was something I rarely seemed to observe even in Cutler. As
Orton develops more accuracy in that, it should serve as quite a weapon.

-----

Tned
04-29-2009, 12:02 PM
Orton wasn't impressive with his deep throws because he was bad going deep.
That was a knock on him coming out of college. However, several Chicago
fans have noted that he has improved significantly in that area, and the
several hours I put in studying him (I know, get a life) seemed to verify that.

One thing I have noticed is that Orton can throw deep with touch . . . i.e., he
can put a little more air into it and drop it over the outstretched arms of the
defender. That was something I rarely seemed to observe even in Cutler. As
Orton develops more accuracy in that, it should serve as quite a weapon.

-----

He should have the time to throw, so if he has the accuracy (most NFL QB's have 'enough' arm strength) for the deep ball, especially placing it in the right spot, where only the WR can catch it, then he has the receivers that can make big plays.

I just subscribed to NFL Rewind, so I can watch some NE games to see exactly what 'his system' is all about, and also check out the first half of Chicago's season when Orton reportedly played very well.

Haven't had a chance to watch any of the games yet, but plan to watch them here and there over the next couple months.

Tned
08-06-2009, 07:41 AM
Ok, I know I'm a bit of a homer at times, and can fall into orange colored glasses mode, but the more I hear from the camp, the more excited I am getting.

I'm still concerned about Orton and now Marshal's health, but even without Moreno signed, it sounds like our running game should be in good shape.

Also, in my post draft moment of optimism, I expected Ayers to play more on the line than OLB, where it seems like he will be a linebacker. I didn't think Crowder would make a real run at a starting backer position, but instead provide depth.

So, some of my predictions were off, but even with our tough schedule, I am beginning to think we have a chance to be competitive right away. I'm looking forward to seeing some pre-season football, to start to get an idea of how the team does when going up against other teams.

NorthernLights
08-06-2009, 10:03 AM
In order for the Broncos to win the AFC West, I believe they will need to beat the Chargers twice. In order to do this, they will need to exploit the Bolts weakest positions which is safety on defense, and right guard on offense.

When the Broncos are on offense, they should concentrate on quick mid-range passes to the TE and slot receivers. The Bolts will be bringing the pass rush with Phillips, Merriman and English, so a quick passing game will limit that attack. I actually think the zone blocking would be better against the Bolts as they are trying to push more and play on the other side of the line of scrimmage. A zone blocking attack would punish over aggressive rush defense, but we'll see with Josh comes up with. The Broncos have a great O-line, so I expect a top 10 rushing attack.

When the Broncos are on defense, they need to attack the Bolts right side. The starter has not been named and will need time to adjust. Until LT proves he is back to 07 form, it would be wise to only put 7 in the box and focus on taking away Jackson, Gates and Chambers. When Sproles is in the game, the ball will go his way, so key on him on a swing pass out of the backfield. Rivers can be rattled and forced to throw the ball away with a good rush. Gates can't block to save his life so they should overload that side.

I think the Raiders will actually be better, but not good. Maybe 6 wins. The Chiefs will probably win 5. In looking at the Bolts schedule, they will probably post double digit wins, so the Broncos will need to keep pace. Beating the Bolts twice will go a long way to winning the west and going to the playoffs. If will be fun to watch and I can't wait.

Good luck Bronco fans and enjoy.

T.K.O.
08-06-2009, 10:45 AM
In order for the Broncos to win the AFC West, I believe they will need to beat the Chargers twice. . Beating the Bolts twice will go a long way to winning the west and going to the playoffs. If will be fun to watch and I can't wait.

Good luck Bronco fans and enjoy.

it would be nice to beat the bolts twice,however it sounds like you may be assuming we beat either the raiders or chiefs (or both ) twice .
we can not afford to think like that.
granted we should beat the raiders twice and the chiefs at least once .
but if we split those games and the bolts sweep those two.....well you get the picture.
realistically we need to sweep 2 and split with the other afc rivals to have a good shot at the afcw crown.
provided sd has their slow start we might be able to take an early lead like last year.
we just have to survive that brutal stretch in the middle with about 4-4
i think 10-6 will win it.........LETS GO BRONCOS !:defense:

Tned
08-06-2009, 11:29 AM
Arguably, we have a harder schedule than the Chargers, even though we have the 2nd place schedule. Indy and NE, who finished 2nd in their divisions, are probably tougher foes than the teams that won the division and SD will play.

Tned
08-23-2009, 08:58 PM
Ok, with the "prediction" thread out there, I figured I would bump my "Why the Broncos will win the AFC West".

Ravage!!!
08-23-2009, 10:29 PM
Ok, with the "prediction" thread out there, I figured I would bump my "Why the Broncos will win the AFC West".

still sticking with this?:eek:

Tned
08-23-2009, 10:52 PM
still sticking with this?:eek:

Hey, I'm an eternal optimist. The Raiders and Chiefs have a long way to go to be powerhouse teams, and like us have to play the NFCE and AFCN (is it north with Pitt, Bal, etc.?).

San Diego is the only team that would seem to have the edge, and even more so because we play two teams that had down years with our second place schedule. So, we get NE and SD gets Miami. We get Indy, and SD gets Tenn. Based on my gut, I say our second place schedule is tougher than their first place schedule.

But, with the tough schedule the AFCW has, I still think it could be won again with 8-8 or possibly 9-7, and we have a 'chance' of hitting that mark.

Dean
08-23-2009, 11:03 PM
Good luck with that 9-7 T.:rolleyes:

It could happen. . . A long, long shot IMO but it could happen.

Tned
08-23-2009, 11:25 PM
Good luck with that 9-7 T.:rolleyes:

It could happen. . . A long, long shot IMO but it could happen.

Yea, I agree it's a long shot, and came up with 7-9 in the prediction thread, and don't even feel real comfortable with that. However, when I wrote this, I had on my post draft, orange colored glasses and still think it's a possibility to eek out 8 wins and win the west. I just wouldn't mortgage my house to lay down a bet on them winning the west. ;)

Jaws
08-24-2009, 03:59 AM
I too predict the Broncos will win the AFC West, I'm just not saying which year ;)

Dirk
08-24-2009, 05:20 AM
I'm with you Tned!

If McD can iron out the stupid mistakes (aka left handed ints) and the defense can gel, I think that there is a chance the Broncos can with the AFCW.

And even this year! (:wink: sharkie)

Tned
09-28-2009, 07:50 AM
Well, while I am still on the "Broncos can win the west" bandwagon, I missed a frew things here.

I posted the quotes below after the draft on 4-28 (you can read the full post/write up in the first post of this thread), so I thought it would be interesting to see where I speculated right and where wrong.

First, I think I nailed this:


First, the fact that the Broncos did not go into the draft with an aggressive plan to beef up the front 7 tells me that they are either incompetent, building for future years, or already believe the front 7 can win this year. I am leaning towards the third option.

And here, as I have posted quite a bit over the offseason (even when I have not agreed with all of McDaniels' moves), is that the one constant is that McDaniels had an air of someone getting ready to win THIS season, not two or three years from now.


Second, the moves made during the draft did not appear to be panicked moves, or moves to fill a position at any cost. Again, this brings us to incompetent, building for the future or feeling they are ready to win.

On the offense:


What I see is an offense that should be able to both move the ball, but more importantly do it in a methodical, time eating manner --- ball control offense.

Through three games, we are 9th in time of possession (31:51) and 9th in total offense. Not too bad for a team with a new QB and RB, and a completely new offensive scheme. Not to mention a QB that has been sporting the ever fashionable glove and stitches for his bone-induced finger laceration.

So far, the secondary has lived up to my expectations:


Let's take dogs approach and start at the back. Champ is champ. We picked up a solid starting CB to start opposite of him. In addition, we picked up a mean, hard hitting safety in Hawkins. Finally, we picked up someone that I didn't know in much more than name, Renaldo Hill. I initially read some questionable stuff about him, especially related to his range and age. However. last week listening to Sirius NFL, they were recounting a discussion with the Miami DC or HC. They talked about how Hill was beat out in training camp by a younger guy, and the D struggled for a few games, and they put Hill back in, and the defense picked up dramatically and the coach credits hills play for turning the D around. This was being retold talking to a Miami caller, when the hosts were telling the fan that Miami had some big shoes to fill in Hill.

So, the more I read about our various players, I see we should have a solid secondary. Using the build from the back philosophy that Dog described that Nolan uses.

Then, the draft comes, and we pay dearly for a nickel DB, that if he can win a spot, could have an immediate impact when we are playing teams like Indy and NE. Then we bring in a safety with mixed reviews, but is supposed to be ball hawk. He might only be depth, or he might play in three safety, big nickel type packages.

I missed badly on the personnell that would make up the D line:


Now we move forward. The front seven. The 800 pound gorilla in the room. Why did McDaniels ignore the biggest need on draft day. Did he?

McD had made a case that he felt they addressed the front in FA. So, what do we have.

The number one question is do we have a nose tackle. The leading contender would have to be free agent Fields, however he hasn't started since '07. It could also be Thomas, although he is a bit light for the position. A very long shot could be UFDA Baker winning that position battle.

We will go the most conservative route. Fields becomes the nose tackle. An adequate nosetackle doesn't have to get penetration, just tie up 650 lbs of a center and guard. We will assume he can do this.

So, with Fields at nose tackle, we have Thomas and ayers at the two end positions, with Peterson/Powell replacing ayers, or in a four men rotation at end.

They are big enough and good enough athletes to play ends in the 3-4.

Unlike many, I did not think Davis was a bad pickup, but instead would help DJ solidify the middle in the 3-4. I expected fields to win the other OLB spot (vs. being in the rotation as he is now), as Hagan really wasn't on my radar.


Now, linebacker. The inside is solid with DJ and Davis, with Larsen and possibly woodyard for depth. That leaves the only real question is how effectively will our four light ends be at transferring to OLB.

Dumerville will obviously have the highest expectation to make the move and should have the skills to do so. Opposite him, the best option is the special teams specialist, Reid Rotating with them, or competing for the job is Crowder and Moss, and of course Boss Bailey will be in the mix as either another option inside, or as an undersized OLB.

While Quinn isn't a factor, I think I nailed the offense and secondary:


So, when you piece it all together, our offense should be less explosive than last year, but has the potential to be more of a ball control offense, and likely a better red zone offense. By being more ball control, and not going for the deep ball as often, the turnovers should be reduced.

Moreno and Quinn make the offense at least as productive as last year' (points and TOP, not necessarily total yards) offense. That ball contrrol offense and longer TOP, means the defense has more time to rest between series.

Our secondary has seen a clear upgrade, and if Smith can start day one as the nickel back, then our secondary should be a significant upgrade over last year.

Again, while I missed on who would play ends on the line, and the linebacker spot opposite Doom (again, this was posted on 4-28-09), I think my conclusions about what McDaniels and Nolan were going to put on the field was correct.


That brings us back to the front seven.

Can a front seven of Ayers/Powell, Fields, Thomas up front, and Reid/Moss, Davis, DJ, Dumervil succeed in their new 3-4 roles?

The more I have read, looked at the roster, listened to the pressers, read articles about various players, etc., I think that Nolan can put together a solid 3-4 front seven with the combination of players previously on the roster, plus FA's and those drafted.

We have about 9 guys with the physical skills and talent, and while they will need to make some adjustments, like dumervill dropping into coverage, I think they have the coaching staff to teach them.



And, I stand by my prediction made right after the draft:


So, I am officially making the early prediction that we will win the AFC West with a .500 or just over .500 record.

Bronco Warrior
09-28-2009, 03:08 PM
I have been telling pepole since the day after the scheduale came out that we go minimum of 10-6 and counted Pitt, giants, as a lose at home and Baltimore, Indy Philly, and the SD game there as my losses. Now that I have seen SD this year we win that one easy 13 points... and Philly is suspect with all the injuries and the QB sitch, and we beat the team that just beat Pitt! That makes us 13-3 but we might lose one or two we shouldn't so 10-6 is a no brainer and 12-4 is within reach..write it down! for the record SD will go 6-10 at best.