What is your biggest peve about the draft?

[omac]

(poll above)

Some people like the way the draft turned out, some don't, and some like some parts and disliked others. If you had to choose only one, which reason describes your dislike the most?

[TXBRONC]

(poll above)

Some people like the way the draft turned out, some don't, and some like some parts and disliked others. If you had to choose only one, which reason describes your dislike the most?

I'm going to guess that you're still putting the poll together?

[CrazyHorse]

The DB's and RB's we got in free agency.

[omac]

I'm going to guess that you're still putting the poll together?

Just finished, although I'm sure I left stuff out, hehehe. :D

[TXBRONC]

As I've said in other places I nothing against the players that were picked but I do think McDaniels should have spent a few more picks on the front seven.

[omac]

I haven't actually decided yet. I'm caught between choosing not addressing the DL more, and the rare opportunity to be able to choose in the top 10 a premiere NT that could really shore up our rushing offense, and on which the 3-4 is predicated.

[Ravage!!!]

burning the pick. That player will always be judged as a top ten first round pick.. and I don't think he's that caliber ofa player.

Although..I was hoping we could select two choices.. because not getting the NT was the other... although I'm not sure there really was a NT available for the 34 other than (I feel) Raji....

[bcbronc]

I'm not too unhappy with how the draft went, but I would have like even a warm body to add to the NT mix. don't feel we needed 2 safeties and 2 interior linemen with no NT.

[TXBRONC]

I haven't actually decided yet. I'm caught between choosing not addressing the DL more, and the rare opportunity to be able to choose in the top 10 a premiere NT that could really shore up our rushing offense, and on which the 3-4 is predicated.

I love the pick of Moreno but he's not a nose tackle and the fact is we could have Ron Brace instead of the corner back that we took.

[omac]

I chose not picking a premiere NT in the top 10 when we had the ammo to do so. How rare is it for Denver to be able to pick a talent from the top 10? Sure, we've had some gems after that, but drafting from the top 10 or even top 5 is what built some of the talent heavy teams like SD. Denver is rarely in a position to not only be close enough to the top 10, but have the ammo to move up without crippling ourselves in the draft.

[UnderArmour]

I'll have to wait to see how our offense is run this year, but I dislike how we traded two third round picks for a Tight End when we could have moved up with our 2nd rounder by trading those to get high enough for Alphonso Smith as opposed to trading next year's first. I could be completely wrong though and we could end up playing more power football, which would be sweet. McDaniels may be full of surprises, time will tell.

As far as moving up in the first... Even though we may have had the ammo to trade up, nobody in the top 8 would have fielded our calls. It looked like the Jags were dead set on Monroe and couldn't have traded to our spot because the Bills needed an OT. I'm sure their phones were ringing like mad when a player like Crabtree was slipping on by with better offers than ours.

[Italianmobstr7]

Just finished, although I'm sure I left stuff out, hehehe. :D

Yeah. I'm not going to vote. If I had to I think I would put that nothing bothers me. But really, it just depends on how it works out on the field. If it doesn't work out, I'm sure I'll be wishing we addressed the d-line more. If it does, then it was a good draft.

[omac]

I'll have to wait to see how our offense is run this year, but I dislike how we traded two third round picks for a Tight End when we could have moved up with our 2nd rounder by trading those to get high enough for Alphonso Smith as opposed to trading next year's first. I could be completely wrong though and we could end up playing more power football, which would be sweet. McDaniels may be full of surprises, time will tell.

As far as moving up in the first... Even though we may have had the ammo to trade up, nobody in the top 8 would have fielded our calls. It looked like the Jags were dead set on Monroe and couldn't have traded to our spot because the Bills needed an OT. I'm sure their phones were ringing like mad when a player like Crabtree was slipping on by with better offers than ours.

That's a pretty good point! :salute: Who knows if we would've been able to get a trade partner. Maybe Oakland ... I'm sure Al knows Hayward-Bey would be available later on, in the 12th pick easily, but then again, Al does like to show off. :D

[honz]

I'm with Mike Mayock. I like most of the players we got, but am a little confused as to why we had to give up what we did to get those players.

[dogfish]

badly overpaying to move up multiple times, especially burning a pick that's quite likely to yield an elite, franchise cornerstone player like sam bradford, terrance cody or eric berry to get a guy whose upside is a solid number two corner. . . .

[omac]

badly overpaying to move up multiple times, especially burning a pick that's quite likely to yield an elite, franchise cornerstone player like sam bradford, terrance cody or eric berry to get a guy whose upside is a solid number two corner. . . .

For me, to justify burning a #1 pick that, like you said, could get us a franchise cornerstone player, he'd better be much better than a solid number 2 corner. He'd at the very least have to be our number 1 corner (and not by default), or be a Bob Sanders type. He can't just have the impact of a solid #2 cb, because no one in their right mind would use their 1st round pick with the intention of getting a #2 cb.

[Ravage!!!]

For me, to justify burning a #1 pick that, like you said, could get us a franchise cornerstone player, he'd better be much better than a solid number 2 corner. He'd at the very least have to be our number 1 corner (and not by default), or be a Bob Sanders type. He can't just have the impact of a solid #2 cb, because no one in their right mind would use their 1st round pick with the intention of getting a #2 cb.

hence why no one used their first round pick on the CB we did.....

[aberdien]

The continued neglect of the defensive line and linebackers. Again.

[bcbronc]

can we redo this vote now that the UDFA signings are trickling in? we've already added 3 front seven prospects, including a NT that was on a lot of peoples radar. my only problem now is how do we keep all these players we've added this weekend and through the UFA season.

[omac]

can we redo this vote now that the UDFA signings are trickling in? we've already added 3 front seven prospects, including a NT that was on a lot of peoples radar. my only problem now is how do we keep all these players we've added this weekend and through the UFA season.

UDFA's are players who weren't perceived worthy enough to garner even a 7th round pick. Sure, some turn out to be gems, but the truth is, teams passed them over in the draft because they believed the players they got were much better.

Taking linemen from the UDFAs is not the same as burning a valuable draft pick on a player. These are cheap, no-risk signings, of players not thought of highly enough to be drafted.

Long ago, the Colts needed a QB, and to address it, they picked up Peyton Manning in the draft. They would not have purposely neglected that need in the draft, with a plan of finding such a player as an UDFA. UDFAs are no risk prospects, with high rewards if they turn out great, but teams don't look for the answer to their greatest needs with the UDFA. On the contrary, most coaches move up in the draft to get the player they want, just like McDaniels did.

[Watchthemiddle]

UDFA's are players who weren't perceived worthy enough to garner even a 7th round pick. Sure, some turn out to be gems, but the truth is, teams passed them over in the draft because they believed the players they got were much better.

Taking linemen from the UDFAs is not the same as burning a valuable draft pick on a player. These are cheap, no-risk signings, of players not thought of highly enough to be drafted.

Long ago, the Colts needed a QB, and to address it, they picked up Peyton Manning in the draft. They would not have purposely neglected that need in the draft, with a plan of finding such a player as an UDFA. UDFAs are no risk prospects, with high rewards if they turn out great, but teams don't look for the answer to their greatest needs with the UDFA. On the contrary, most coaches move up in the draft to get the player they want, just like McDaniels did.

You also failed to mention that there are some FA's that have been passed over in rounds 1-7 because of character issues....*see Baker

But...and its usually a BIG but, if you can pick them up in FA...( the once highly touted, early round prospect ) then you could have a gem. Especially if they have matured and grew up from their off the field problems.

[Simple Jaded]

Did not address the defensive line more.
Overpaid in draft currency for some of the talent.
Reached with some players in the 1st or 2nd rounds.
Wasted an opportunity to pick up a top tier NT when we had the possition and ammo to do so.
Burning next year's extra 1st round pick.
Missed on an available special player on the board.

All of the above.......

[Simple Jaded]

badly overpaying to move up multiple times, especially burning a pick that's quite likely to yield an elite, franchise cornerstone player like sam bradford, terrance cody or eric berry to get a guy whose upside is a solid number two corner. . . .

This is just sickening, I mean that literally.......

[Simple Jaded]

I chose not picking a premiere NT in the top 10 when we had the ammo to do so. How rare is it for Denver to be able to pick a talent from the top 10? Sure, we've had some gems after that, but drafting from the top 10 or even top 5 is what built some of the talent heavy teams like SD. Denver is rarely in a position to not only be close enough to the top 10, but have the ammo to move up without crippling ourselves in the draft.
They won't next year either, they made certain of that.......

[omac]

You also failed to mention that there are some FA's that have been passed over in rounds 1-7 because of character issues....*see Baker

But...and its usually a BIG but, if you can pick them up in FA...( the once highly touted, early round prospect ) then you could have a gem. Especially if they have matured and grew up from their off the field problems.

My point is still the same. If a player is a UDFA, that means teams did not put enough value in them to justify using a draft pick on them. Whether it's because of character risks, unpolished skills, undisciplined work ethic, or just a failure to impress scouts enough, they were thought of as not worthy of even a 7th round pick.

The reason they become more appealing as a UDFA is because they now entail no risk at all. The club invests very little in them, and they could easily release them if they don't work out. If they do work out, it's a steal.

But again, they were not willing to risk valued draft resources, even a 7th round pick, to get them.

For the most part, the majority of the athletes are properly scouted. Usually, the best are from the draft, and that's why teams risk their draft currency on them.

[omac]

[/COLOR]
They won't next year either, they made certain of that.......

LOL :D

It is consistent with his character, though. He has an unswerving belief in himself and his system, and he probably believes without a doubt that the Broncos will do great this season. You can't agree to a deal like that if you have any doubts that the Broncos won't pick early in the draft.

[NameUsedBefore]

Total waste of next year's 1st round pick. I'm completely flabbergasted and I don't think it is defensible no matter how you spin it. And no, I don't mean Smith is a bad player, but that is not how you move to get your player.

[DenBronx]

the whole 2nd round was a nightmare. absolute worst thing that could have happened ...happened. josh buckled under the pressure and cost us. complete inexperience in his part. i thought we were done with the draft blunders, evidentelly not!

trading away next years first???? are you effin kidding me?

however...i love david bruton and tom brandstater. ayers is supposedly going to be the best player on d but might not make an impact day one. moreno is a pro bowler...day 1 he's going to produce. this draft is a solid B-

[bcbronc]

My point is still the same. If a player is a UDFA, that means teams did not put enough value in them to justify using a draft pick on them. Whether it's because of character risks, unpolished skills, undisciplined work ethic, or just a failure to impress scouts enough, they were thought of as not worthy of even a 7th round pick.

The reason they become more appealing as a UDFA is because they now entail no risk at all. The club invests very little in them, and they could easily release them if they don't work out. If they do work out, it's a steal.

But again, they were not willing to risk valued draft resources, even a 7th round pick, to get them.

For the most part, the majority of the athletes are properly scouted. Usually, the best are from the draft, and that's why teams risk their draft currency on them.

sorry, I don't follow your point?

It should make a difference to me that we added a player as a UDFA instead of a 7th round pick? why exactly?

[omac]

sorry, I don't follow your point?

It should make a difference to me that we added a player as a UDFA instead of a 7th round pick? why exactly?

You get my point.

Players not taken in the draft are perceived to be of lower value than those that were taken.

Teams would take Curry, Matthews, or Cushing over Lee Robinson; Crabtree, or Maclin over Lucas Taylor, etc.

[bcbronc]

You get my point.

Players not taken in the draft are perceived to be of lower value than those that were taken.

Teams would take Curry, Matthews, or Cushing over Lee Robinson; Crabtree, or Maclin over Lucas Taylor, etc.

I don't get your point.

did you watch the Superbowl this year? just asking.

[omac]

I don't get your point.

did you watch the Superbowl this year? just asking.

I've explained my point very clearly, and I've also addressed UDFA gems in them. If you don't understand, there's not much I can do about that.

[Elevation inc]

listening to all the people act like the sky is falling before the product is on the field.....i have my dislikes, but seriously you would think world war 3 hits every time we dont always draft a player who person...insert name.... really wanted....

[Hawgdriver]

badly overpaying to move up multiple times, especially burning a pick that's quite likely to yield an elite, franchise cornerstone player like sam bradford, terrance cody or eric berry to get a guy whose upside is a solid number two corner. . . .

it's hard to put a price on knowing you have your guy instead vs. hoping you get your guy. i do think they should have kept their powder dry, but his play on the field will ultimately determine how i ought to feel about it. there are huge expectations for Smith and if he lets me down i'll be really pissed about it. until then it's wait and see for this bubba.

[bcbronc]

I've explained my point very clearly, and I've also addressed UDFA gems in them. If you don't understand, there's not much I can do about that.

no I guess not.

the way I see it, the UDFAs you sign are part of your "draft". it's no different than getting Mecklenberg in the 12th round, or whatever it was.

if we had used a 4th on Baker, knowing what people knew at that time, most people would have considered this a pretty good draft. adding him to the team as a UDFA is the same result as adding him as a 4th round pick. every year good players don't get drafted. imo you have to consider the UDFA signings when evaluating a draft. they definitely changed my opinion of the weekend as a whole.

[bcbronc]

it's hard to put a price on knowing you have your guy instead vs. hoping you get your guy. i do think they should have kept their powder dry, but his play on the field will ultimately determine how i ought to feel about it. there are huge expectations for Smith and if he lets me down i'll be really pissed about it. until then it's wait and see for this bubba.

that's another thing too.

the same people that will say "McX can't afford to miss in this draft" will then say he should sit back and hope the players he actually wants falls to him. its a contradiction.

[dogfish]

For me, to justify burning a #1 pick that, like you said, could get us a franchise cornerstone player, he'd better be much better than a solid number 2 corner. He'd at the very least have to be our number 1 corner (and not by default), or be a Bob Sanders type. He can't just have the impact of a solid #2 cb, because no one in their right mind would use their 1st round pick with the intention of getting a #2 cb.

well, i agree with you that that's what he SHOULD be for what we paid for him, but i'm absolutely not buying that that's what he IS going to be-- and if that's what doogie and co. expect of him, i think it's a serious error in judgement. . . i'm not going to say that he "can't" be an elite corner, but IMO there are very long odds against it. . . i know people get bent out of shape and love to throw out exceptions whenever you mention size, but in reality it very much is an important factor. . .

take away antoine winfield and there isn't another front-line corner in the league that's under 5'10", and most of the really good ones are 5'11" + . . . . champ is 6'0", asomugha's 6'2", and DRC (the best young corner in the league IMO) is also 6'2". . .

i like smith, don't get me wrong, i think he's a good football player that has a chance to be a solid starter with serious big play potential. . . let me be clear that i'm not at all unhappy to have him on the team. . . but an elite, shutdown type of cover guy when he's 5'9" and runs in the high 4.4 - low 4.5 range and has a 34" vertical leap? nope, i don't see it. . . . i just can't picture him turning into a player that can consistently match up with this league's elite big receivers, the likes of andre johnson, larry fitzgerald, calvin johnson, etc etc. . . . like it or not, his height's always going to be a big time liability against most of the premier wideouts, no matter how tough he is, how competitive, or how technically sound. . . and if he doesn't match up well with top wideouts, he's not going to be a true, stud #1 corner. . .

i know some people will piss down their legs about how i'm "judging him before he's even played in this league," but to me it's not rocket science that it's going to be awfully tough for him to play on a level like asomugha-- and that's the kind of corner you want to get if you end up giving up a top ten pick for him. . . if i'm wrong, and this guy becomes an all-pro corner i'll be glad to apologize. . . . :lol:

i think it's fair to say that antoine winfield is a pretty fair measure of smith's ultimate upside, and as good as he is i don't know that i'd have given up our first next year to get a young version of him when i think that first could get a guy like bradford or cody, or at least provide the majority of the ammo to get one of those guys. . . . and if we go 12-4 and it's a #28 pick, then it was a fair trade-- but still not a good idea to take the risk. . . it's one thing if we were coming off a 10-12 win season with a high quality veteran roster and coaching staff, but coming off a season where we set franchise records for defensive ineptitude and will be relying on a lot of the same guys next year, just traded the QB that carried the team (yea, i said it, and guys like shannon sharpe have said the same thing) have a very rookie HC that's also going to be the playcaller and a seemingly-brutal schedule. . . . yea, really bad move to trade that pick, IMO. . . i'd feel differently if we'd packaged it to move up for a mario williams type of super-elite prospect, but not for an undersized corner projected as a borderline first-early second round prospect. . . .

[sneakers]

Drafting up to get that Tight End was kinda weird.

[Hawgdriver]

Total waste of next year's 1st round pick. I'm completely flabbergasted and I don't think it is defensible no matter how you spin it. And no, I don't mean Smith is a bad player, but that is not how you move to get your player.

let's group together all CBs in this year and next, and we are at pick number 37. we have Alphonso Smith still on the board. next year we expect to have 3 first round caliber cornerbacks. let's say two of them fit 'our system' (because we ask them to excel at things specific to our defensive scheme). so we have one on the board at 37 and two on the board we can use with our next year's pick.

if we don't pick Smith, we can possibly pick up one of the two next year. perhaps one of the two next year is better than Smith.

but what if someone else picks him up before we can next year? what if next year there is a DT we covet? which do we take? also, isn't it better to have smaller player contracts on the books? isn't it better to have the guy in a Broncos uni this year instead of next year? we can't win games with a player still in college.

or, we could pick up our player and eliminate the uncertainty and get to work. draft pick value is more arbitrary than we credit. perhaps the greatest value of future picks is in their ability to give us flexibility on draft day.

there are reasons to justify the selection if you side with the eye of the beholder. still, it would be nice to have more dry powder.

[omac]

no I guess not.

the way I see it, the UDFAs you sign are part of your "draft". it's no different than getting Mecklenberg in the 12th round, or whatever it was.

if we had used a 4th on Baker, knowing what people knew at that time, most people would have considered this a pretty good draft. adding him to the team as a UDFA is the same result as adding him as a 4th round pick. every year good players don't get drafted. imo you have to consider the UDFA signings when evaluating a draft. they definitely changed my opinion of the weekend as a whole.

I don't discount at all the value of UDFAs; when coupled with drafts and FAs, they help build a team. And some UDFAs can turn out great.

But when you're looking for a high impact player to build a team around, you don't try to get him through UDFAs. You try to get him either through the draft, or through free agency or trades.

I'm glad that the line is being addressed more in UDFA signings, but I would've much rather preferred it be addressed in the draft with higher rated players, since it is such a need. There are never any guarantees, but when several professional scouts have much higher opionions of certain athletes over other athletes, their assessments hold some weight. There's a bigger chance of getting a more solid player in the draft, and specially higher in the draft, than there is in scouring the UDFAs. There is, though, much less risk with UDFAs.

I do get your point, though. :cheers:

[dogfish]

Total waste of next year's 1st round pick. I'm completely flabbergasted and I don't think it is defensible no matter how you spin it. And no, I don't mean Smith is a bad player, but that is not how you move to get your player.

agreed. . . it wouldn't be a big deal if we'd given up our lower 3rd to move from 48 to 37-- i mighta been a bit irritated, but if he's your guy i can see making that move. . . that's fine. . . but cripes, don't give up a potentially high first for him! to me, that's just blatant mismanagement. . . the possible payoff doesn't come close to equalling the potential cost-- bad economics. . .



it's hard to put a price on knowing you have your guy instead vs. hoping you get your guy. i do think they should have kept their powder dry, but his play on the field will ultimately determine how i ought to feel about it. there are huge expectations for Smith and if he lets me down i'll be really pissed about it. until then it's wait and see for this bubba.

i see what you're saying, but for me it's a bitter pill to watch new england keep moving down and still getting their guys because they've got nerves of steel-- AND, most likely because they have other guys scouted that they wouldn't mind picking, and they refuse to overpay-- while we shit the bed and can't wait ten more spots for a small corner or blocking TE, and instead have to pay through the nose to make sure we get guys that aren't elite prospects and/or don't play premier positions, and don't fill our most immediate needs. . . .

shit, if we were going to burn next year's first i'd have rather packaged it to move up for raji or curry and possibly some additional compensation in return. . . i'd rather play it more conservative, sit back and get my guys the way the top pro's do (NE, pitt, indy), but i understand that we don't have their kind of roster and have to take some more risks if we want to be competitive any time soon. . . but if we're going to take BIG risks, then do it for something that offers a BIG reward. . . .

[bcbronc]

well, i agree with you that that's what he SHOULD be for what we paid for him, but i'm absolutely not buying that that's what he IS going to be-- and if that's what doogie and co. expect of him, i think it's a serious error in judgement. . . i'm not going to say that he "can't" be an elite corner, but IMO there are very long odds against it. . . i know people get bent out of shape and love to throw out exceptions whenever you mention size, but in reality it very much is an important factor. . .

take away antoine winfield and there isn't another front-line corner in the league that's under 5'10", and most of the really good ones are 5'11" + . . . . champ is 6'0", asomugha's 6'2", and DRC (the best young corner in the league IMO) is also 6'2". . .

i like smith, don't get me wrong, i think he's a good football player that has a chance to be a solid starter with serious big play potential. . . let me be clear that i'm not at all unhappy to have him on the team. . . but an elite, shutdown type of cover guy when he's 5'9" and runs in the high 4.4 - low 4.5 range and has a 34" vertical leap? nope, i don't see it. . . . i just can't picture him turning into a player that can consistently match up with this league's elite big receivers, the likes of andre johnson, larry fitzgerald, calvin johnson, etc etc. . . . like it or not, his height's always going to be a big time liability against most of the premier wideouts, no matter how tough he is, how competitive, or how technically sound. . . and if he doesn't match up well with top wideouts, he's not going to be a true, stud #1 corner. . .

i know some people will piss down their legs about how i'm "judging him before he's even played in this league," but to me it's not rocket science that it's going to be awfully tough for him to play on a level like asomugha-- and that's the kind of corner you want to get if you end up giving up a top ten pick for him. . . if i'm wrong, and this guy becomes an all-pro corner i'll be glad to apologize. . . . :lol:

i think it's fair to say that antoine winfield is a pretty fair measure of smith's ultimate upside, and as good as he is i don't know that i'd have given up our first next year to get a young version of him when i think that first could get a guy like bradford or cody, or at least provide the majority of the ammo to get one of those guys. . . . and if we go 12-4 and it's a #28 pick, then it was a fair trade-- but still not a good idea to take the risk. . . it's one thing if we were coming off a 10-12 win season with a high quality veteran roster and coaching staff, but coming off a season where we set franchise records for defensive ineptitude and will be relying on a lot of the same guys next year, just traded the QB that carried the team (yea, i said it, and guys like shannon sharpe have said the same thing) have a very rookie HC that's also going to be the playcaller and a seemingly-brutal schedule. . . . yea, really bad move to trade that pick, IMO. . . i'd feel differently if we'd packaged it to move up for a mario williams type of super-elite prospect, but not for an undersized corner projected as a borderline first-early second round prospect. . . .

it is definitely a risk that depends on where our pick lies next year. McDaniels is playing his money on our pick being 20+. If it is, when you consider the depreciation of next years pick vs this years, its a good trade imo. as long as we're talking a move-back of no more than 15-20 picks. if we skunk and we move a top 10 pick for him, no doubt it's almost certainly going to be a bad deal.

but for a late 1st, I think Smith brings value. out of the gate, he looks to be a good bet to be a nickle back with some ball hawking ability, who will put his nose in against a back and gives us another option for kick-off return. with some good coaching and the right scheme, he maybe becomes a legit #2 that can get you 5-7 picks per year, maybe one or two pic6, and 50-70 tackles. I'm happy with that for, say, a #23 overall pick.

yes, he'll have some trouble with the WRs you mentioned. but so will Champ. they're the creme de la creme. but I'm sure you'll agree it's easier to make up 3 inches in height than 3 yards of seperation.

I viewed CB as a need. I wanted to get legit prospect in and start developing him behind Champ and Goodman. I applaud McDaniels for being aggressive and getting the guy on his board, rather than settling for second rate. now we just have to see how good McDaniels is at putting his board together.

[omac]

well, i agree with you that that's what he SHOULD be for what we paid for him, but i'm absolutely not buying that that's what he IS going to be-- and if that's what doogie and co. expect of him, i think it's a serious error in judgement. . . i'm not going to say that he "can't" be an elite corner, but IMO there are very long odds against it. . . i know people get bent out of shape and love to throw out exceptions whenever you mention size, but in reality it very much is an important factor. . .

take away antoine winfield and there isn't another front-line corner in the league that's under 5'10", and most of the really good ones are 5'11" + . . . . champ is 6'0", asomugha's 6'2", and DRC (the best young corner in the league IMO) is also 6'2". . .

i like smith, don't get me wrong, i think he's a good football player that has a chance to be a solid starter with serious big play potential. . . let me be clear that i'm not at all unhappy to have him on the team. . . but an elite, shutdown type of cover guy when he's 5'9" and runs in the high 4.4 - low 4.5 range and has a 34" vertical leap? nope, i don't see it. . . . i just can't picture him turning into a player that can consistently match up with this league's elite big receivers, the likes of andre johnson, larry fitzgerald, calvin johnson, etc etc. . . . like it or not, his height's always going to be a big time liability against most of the premier wideouts, no matter how tough he is, how competitive, or how technically sound. . . and if he doesn't match up well with top wideouts, he's not going to be a true, stud #1 corner. . .

i know some people will piss down their legs about how i'm "judging him before he's even played in this league," but to me it's not rocket science that it's going to be awfully tough for him to play on a level like asomugha-- and that's the kind of corner you want to get if you end up giving up a top ten pick for him. . . if i'm wrong, and this guy becomes an all-pro corner i'll be glad to apologize. . . . :lol:

i think it's fair to say that antoine winfield is a pretty fair measure of smith's ultimate upside, and as good as he is i don't know that i'd have given up our first next year to get a young version of him when i think that first could get a guy like bradford or cody, or at least provide the majority of the ammo to get one of those guys. . . . and if we go 12-4 and it's a #28 pick, then it was a fair trade-- but still not a good idea to take the risk. . . it's one thing if we were coming off a 10-12 win season with a high quality veteran roster and coaching staff, but coming off a season where we set franchise records for defensive ineptitude and will be relying on a lot of the same guys next year, just traded the QB that carried the team (yea, i said it, and guys like shannon sharpe have said the same thing) have a very rookie HC that's also going to be the playcaller and a seemingly-brutal schedule. . . . yea, really bad move to trade that pick, IMO. . . i'd feel differently if we'd packaged it to move up for a mario williams type of super-elite prospect, but not for an undersized corner projected as a borderline first-early second round prospect. . . .

I agree with everything ... except your point on DRC; Aso is the best, hehehe! :woot:

On your point about height, look no further than Elvis. Though he's an excellent player and sacker(?), his lack of size prevents him from being very effective on stopping the run.

On a 5'9 corner who isn't very fast and doesn't jump very high .... forget Calvin Johnson ... Phillip Rivers and Vincent Jackson might have a field day just throwing up jumpballs. :yikes:

[topscribe]

How about a "jury's still out" option?

-----

[Hawgdriver]

RE: DF sez smith is a scrub midget #2 CB

everyone told me I was too white to rap, but I showed them!!

love,
enimen

they all said I wasn't cut out for star material

sincerely,
chasey lain

they told me midgets can't play corner in the NFL

yours,
alphonso smith

[bcbronc]

agreed. . . it wouldn't be a big deal if we'd given up our lower 3rd to move from 48 to 37-- i mighta been a bit irritated, but if he's your guy i can see making that move. . . that's fine. . . but cripes, don't give up a potentially high first for him! to me, that's just blatant mismanagement. . . the possible payoff doesn't come close to equalling the potential cost-- bad economics. . .




i see what you're saying, but for me it's a bitter pill to watch new england keep moving down and still getting their guys because they've got nerves of steel-- AND, most likely because they have other guys scouted that they wouldn't mind picking, and they refuse to overpay-- while we shit the bed and can't wait ten more spots for a small corner or blocking TE, and instead have to pay through the nose to make sure we get guys that aren't elite prospects and/or don't play premier positions, and don't fill our most immediate needs. . . .

shit, if we were going to burn next year's first i'd have rather packaged it to move up for raji or curry and possibly some additional compensation in return. . . i'd rather play it more conservative, sit back and get my guys the way the top pro's do (NE, pitt, indy), but i understand that we don't have their kind of roster and have to take some more risks if we want to be competitive any time soon. . . but if we're going to take BIG risks, then do it for something that offers a BIG reward. . . .

dog, I don't think there's any chance Smith would have been there at 48. As I posted in another thread, two more CBs came off the board between 37 and 48. if you consider the CB rankings on most draft sites, the top FIVE CBs were off the board by 48 (Smith being #4 on the boards I looked at).

if McDaniels wanted to get Smith, he had to move up to around where he did.

[omac]

agreed. . . it wouldn't be a big deal if we'd given up our lower 3rd to move from 48 to 37-- i mighta been a bit irritated, but if he's your guy i can see making that move. . . that's fine. . . but cripes, don't give up a potentially high first for him! to me, that's just blatant mismanagement. . . the possible payoff doesn't come close to equalling the potential cost-- bad economics. . .




i see what you're saying, but for me it's a bitter pill to watch new england keep moving down and still getting their guys because they've got nerves of steel-- AND, most likely because they have other guys scouted that they wouldn't mind picking, and they refuse to overpay-- while we shit the bed and can't wait ten more spots for a small corner or blocking TE, and instead have to pay through the nose to make sure we get guys that aren't elite prospects and/or don't play premier positions, and don't fill our most immediate needs. . . .

shit, if we were going to burn next year's first i'd have rather packaged it to move up for raji or curry and possibly some additional compensation in return. . . i'd rather play it more conservative, sit back and get my guys the way the top pro's do (NE, pitt, indy), but i understand that we don't have their kind of roster and have to take some more risks if we want to be competitive any time soon. . . but if we're going to take BIG risks, then do it for something that offers a BIG reward. . . .

Exactly how I feel.

NE kept trading down and trading down, then they got Brace! :shocked:

We probably even needed Brace more than they did, and we're trying to install a NE type defense too. Bellichick does know defense, so I now won't be surprised if Brace turns out to be a really solid player. :ack:

And yes, if we burned next season's #1 pick to move up to get Raji to address probably the most important position in a 3-4, I'd be pretty happy, even with a few reaches later in the draft. The need is just that important.

[Hawgdriver]

agreed. . . it wouldn't be a big deal if we'd given up our lower 3rd to move from 48 to 37-- i mighta been a bit irritated, but if he's your guy i can see making that move. . . that's fine. . . but cripes, don't give up a potentially high first for him! to me, that's just blatant mismanagement. . . the possible payoff doesn't come close to equalling the potential cost-- bad economics. . .




i see what you're saying, but for me it's a bitter pill to watch new england keep moving down and still getting their guys because they've got nerves of steel-- AND, most likely because they have other guys scouted that they wouldn't mind picking, and they refuse to overpay-- while we shit the bed and can't wait ten more spots for a small corner or blocking TE, and instead have to pay through the nose to make sure we get guys that aren't elite prospects and/or don't play premier positions, and don't fill our most immediate needs. . . .

shit, if we were going to burn next year's first i'd have rather packaged it to move up for raji or curry and possibly some additional compensation in return. . . i'd rather play it more conservative, sit back and get my guys the way the top pro's do (NE, pitt, indy), but i understand that we don't have their kind of roster and have to take some more risks if we want to be competitive any time soon. . . but if we're going to take BIG risks, then do it for something that offers a BIG reward. . . .

dood, you are seriously harshing my mellow.

you had to point out how NE totally owned this draft. got a fat draftchub watching them work it.

i still think we don't fully know how to put a value on the use of draft picks as options, but you put up a hell of a counterpoint.

[dogfish]

it is definitely a risk that depends on where our pick lies next year. McDaniels is playing his money on our pick being 20+. If it is, when you consider the depreciation of next years pick vs this years, its a good trade imo. as long as we're talking a move-back of no more than 15-20 picks. if we skunk and we move a top 10 pick for him, no doubt it's almost certainly going to be a bad deal.

but for a late 1st, I think Smith brings value. out of the gate, he looks to be a good bet to be a nickle back with some ball hawking ability, who will put his nose in against a back and gives us another option for kick-off return. with some good coaching and the right scheme, he maybe becomes a legit #2 that can get you 5-7 picks per year, maybe one or two pic6, and 50-70 tackles. I'm happy with that for, say, a #23 overall pick.

yes, he'll have some trouble with the WRs you mentioned. but so will Champ. they're the creme de la creme. but I'm sure you'll agree it's easier to make up 3 inches in height than 3 yards of seperation.

I viewed CB as a need. I wanted to get legit prospect in and start developing him behind Champ and Goodman. I applaud McDaniels for being aggressive and getting the guy on his board, rather than settling for second rate. now we just have to see how good McDaniels is at putting his board together.

we're pretty much on the same wavelength here. . . and let me again make this clear to hawg, although i'm sure he's joking-- i have no problem with smith as a player! i think your analysis of him in this post was accurate-- he's a good kid, should contribute right away as a nickle and on special teams, should challenge goodman for the #2 spot by next year, and has the chance to develop into a capable long term starter who can make some big momentum-changing plays with his ball skills. . . in the grade our draft thread i gave the pick a B+ because i think he was a solid value pick at #37 in this year's class. . . . woulda rather had brace or everette brown there, no question, but smith wasn't a bad pick at 37. . . . different story if the pick is #6, though. . . . :doh:

of course, rational, balanced analysis be damned. . . . i think we both know that if he has 2-3 picks as the nickel, takes the starting job away from goodman down the stretch, and provides tight coverage and a couple of big turnovers, people will be screaming about "where's all the haterz1101 now??11!!?? you all said smith wasn't gonna be shit, AHAHAHAH111!!!111!!! dumbasses acted like it was the worst trade of all time, and we gave up 12 first rounders for a no-name from middle iowa tech!! mcdaniels and smith PWN all h8ers forever!!! he's better than champ and deion put together, best trade EVAR! championshiiiip!!11"

and if he plays like a rookie nickel gives up some big plays when matched against veteran receivers and gives up a couple of big runs to his side when he can't tackle LT or larry johnson, some of the people who were against the pick will be all "biggest bust of all time! ZOMG, fire mcdumbshit NOW, he ruined our frnachise111!!!111!!! this clown couldn't cover me grandmother in her wheelchair! my 9-yeer old son could get like a thousand yards on him FML11!!!!"

:lol:


but really, ya know what my biggest gripe with the move is?

for me, the saving grace of the absolute friggin' FIASCO of trading off a franchise QB just entering his prime was that we at least got enough ammo in return to make a move for another one next year if orton falls on his face (or get some legit D help if he proves to be competent). . . now our rookie FO pissed that ammo down their leg because they couldn't hold their water another ten spots, and we may well be married to orton for better or for worse-- or back in the boat we were in before cutler, shuffling through scrub QBs and getting humiliated in the wild card round if we were lucky. . .

i mean, couldn't they at LEAST have insisted on sending the chicago pick, which most people think is likely to be the lower of the two??? or put in a cluase that sent them whichever was the lower of the two picks? done SOMETHING to protect us against potentially spending a top five, top ten pick on a borderline first round prospect? it would be one thing if we'd only had one pick to give. . . . and did they even try to move up at a lower cost, like packaging something with #48 to get to 37? we may never know, but i have this sickening feeling that we simply panicked and gave them whatever they wanted. . .

given that we also overpaid to move up for quinn, my impression is that our FO's "bargaining skills" are comparable to a guy that walks onto a car lot, runs up to the first saleman he sees and tells him, "buddy i HAVE TO have that car there, that's the only one that will do and i need it immediately, regardless of the cost," and then shoves his wallet into the guy's hand and tells him to do whatever he has to to make it happen. . . . :tsk:

we look like dan freakin' snyder was negotiating our trades, and i'm NOT very happy about that. . . .

guess all i can do is hope that they learned from it, and those were rookie mistakes and not an indication of the new regime's core philosophy. . . .

[dogfish]

I agree with everything ... except your point on DRC; Aso is the best, hehehe! :woot:

On your point about height, look no further than Elvis. Though he's an excellent player and sacker(?), his lack of size prevents him from being very effective on stopping the run.

On a 5'9 corner who isn't very fast and doesn't jump very high .... forget Calvin Johnson ... Phillip Rivers and Vincent Jackson might have a field day just throwing up jumpballs. :yikes:


all true. . . . and just to clarify, when i said that i think DRC is "the best young corner in the game," i'm not including asomugha in that-- i just meant guys in their first couple of years, up-and-comers-- he's a proven vet now. . . .

[dogfish]

dog, I don't think there's any chance Smith would have been there at 48. As I posted in another thread, two more CBs came off the board between 37 and 48. if you consider the CB rankings on most draft sites, the top FIVE CBs were off the board by 48 (Smith being #4 on the boards I looked at).

if McDaniels wanted to get Smith, he had to move up to around where he did.

fair enough. . . but as my last post indicated, i'm not convinced that a veteran negotiator couldn't have moved up for significantly less. . . and if we couldn't, is smith really so much better than the options that would have been available at 48 that it was worth paying what we did? with darius butler, everette brown, ron brace, clint sintim, connor barwin and max unger all on the board when we made the deal, was smith really such a superior prospect that we just had to abandon all reserve and give them whatever they wanted to get him? if that's the case, then i guess the FO really knows something that we don't. . . and that the rest of the league doesn't either, because he should've been gone in the top fifteen if that was the case. . .

enh, i'm done with it for now. . . some solid points on all sides, and these things can rarely ever be answered with 100% certainty. . . it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but i hope we do really well this year and it ends up being a low pick, and smith turns out to be pocket champ. . . .

[dogfish]

okay, which two people voted "Nothing. The draft was as close to as good as it gets.?"


kclady and sanluis?


:lol:

[Simple Jaded]

Excellent posts in this thread, dogfish.......

[dogfish]

Excellent posts in this thread, dogfish.......

thanks homes. . . .

[Midnight Blue]

I'd need multiple options in this poll. If you're gonna take a RB in the 1st round of the draft then why do you sign 3 scrubs in FA? Makes no sense at all. Using next year's first rounder to reach for an undersized CB who probably would have been available in later rounds also was mind-blowingly stupid. And the near-total overlooking of the front 7 (our primary area of need for like forever) in order to "rebuild" the offense (complete with a significant downgrade at QB) is incomprehensible ineptitude.

[sneakers]

I'd need multiple options in this poll. If you're gonna take a RB in the 1st round of the draft then why do you sign 3 scrubs in FA? Makes no sense at all. Using next year's first rounder to reach for an undersized CB who probably would have been available in later rounds also was mind-blowingly stupid. And the near-total overlooking of the front 7 (our primary area of need for like forever) in order to "rebuild" the offense (complete with a significant downgrade at QB) is incomprehensible ineptitude.

Me thinks that it was a spur of the moment decision, that the temptation was too great when he finally did fall that far.

[Northman]

and if we couldn't, is smith really so much better than the options that would have been available at 48 that it was worth paying what we did? with darius butler, everette brown, ron brace, clint sintim, connor barwin and max unger all on the board when we made the deal, was smith really such a superior prospect that we just had to abandon all reserve and give them whatever they wanted to get him?

No. And thats the part that really bothers me about it. Like you, its not that Smith is a bad player, its just that he isnt worlds above and beyond the other top corners that were there with him. Throw in the fact that we are once again going into the season with the same glaring problem that has plagued our defense the last 5 years.

[claymore]

I'd need multiple options in this poll. If you're gonna take a RB in the 1st round of the draft then why do you sign 3 scrubs in FA? Makes no sense at all. Using next year's first rounder to reach for an undersized CB who probably would have been available in later rounds also was mind-blowingly stupid. And the near-total overlooking of the front 7 (our primary area of need for like forever) in order to "rebuild" the offense (complete with a significant downgrade at QB) is incomprehensible ineptitude.


Me thinks that it was a spur of the moment decision, that the temptation was too great when he finally did fall that far.
I think they were shocked he was still there.

[Nomad]

I love the pick of Moreno but he's not a nose tackle and the fact is we could have Ron Brace instead of the corner back that we took.

I'll agree with you about a NG or a top DT coming out of the draft, then again I don't know what the coaches see but it's torture for a fan to go year in and year out with no dline to have any pressure or run stopping abilities.

About Moreno, I know history rarely repeats itself, but I was watching the top 10 trades of NFLN and when SD was gasping for air as a team in early 2000's they drafted LTomlison (which many analysts/fans said he was going to be a bust). He created a spark and the team built their defense after that and look where their at. I know they've never won a SB but they've been one of the elite's for quite some time. Anyway I hope Moreno adds the same here with the BRONCOS.

[omac]

I'd need multiple options in this poll. If you're gonna take a RB in the 1st round of the draft then why do you sign 3 scrubs in FA? Makes no sense at all. Using next year's first rounder to reach for an undersized CB who probably would have been available in later rounds also was mind-blowingly stupid. And the near-total overlooking of the front 7 (our primary area of need for like forever) in order to "rebuild" the offense (complete with a significant downgrade at QB) is incomprehensible ineptitude.

I also think that one reason the Broncos drafted Moreno was so that the Chargers couldn't. LT's been on the decline, but even a small back like Sproles worked havoc against our defense. Imagine how bad it could get if they reloaded this season with Moreno? Almost like a "we'll get him, so you can't use him against us" scenario.

[Tned]

i see what you're saying, but for me it's a bitter pill to watch new england keep moving down and still getting their guys because they've got nerves of steel-- AND, most likely because they have other guys scouted that they wouldn't mind picking, and they refuse to overpay-- while we shit the bed and can't wait ten more spots for a small corner or blocking TE, and instead have to pay through the nose to make sure we get guys that aren't elite prospects and/or don't play premier positions, and don't fill our most immediate needs. . . .

Maybe it's the effect of McDaniels publicly stating several times they had a very small board with few names on it, and wanting to get those guys. He said they had around 100 names on their board (not over 100, but 'around', so who knows what that means. 95? 85?).


shit, if we were going to burn next year's first i'd have rather packaged it to move up for raji or curry and possibly some additional compensation in return. . . i'd rather play it more conservative, sit back and get my guys the way the top pro's do (NE, pitt, indy), but i understand that we don't have their kind of roster and have to take some more risks if we want to be competitive any time soon. . . but if we're going to take BIG risks, then do it for something that offers a BIG reward. . . .

Exactly, if we were willing to use next year's first, then why not try and hop into the top 10 to grab Raji or Curry? Grab an impact player, rather than a 'might' hit small, DB.

[broncofaninfla]

We didn't address our biggest needs on the DL and we wasted $$$ on our free agent RB's.
Postives: I like every defensive player we drafted.

[broncfn90]

(poll above)

Some people like the way the draft turned out, some don't, and some like some parts and disliked others. If you had to choose only one, which reason describes your dislike the most?

dang this poll should of been a multiple answer

[Tned]

for me, the saving grace of the absolute friggin' FIASCO of trading off a franchise QB just entering his prime was that we at least got enough ammo in return to make a move for another one next year if orton falls on his face (or get some legit D help if he proves to be competent). . . now our rookie FO pissed that ammo down their leg because they couldn't hold their water another ten spots, and we may well be married to orton for better or for worse-- or back in the boat we were in before cutler, shuffling through scrub QBs and getting humiliated in the wild card round if we were lucky. . .


Bingo!!

Having the two firsts this year, should have given us flexibility to get impact on the defense, where we really needed help. The whole reason I was dead set against sanchez, is that we got Orton in the trade and need to see how he plays. If he is a total dud and the 'system' doesn't make him a productive, winning QB, then we would more than likely have a top 5 pick to draft one of the QB's coming out next year. Plus, we would have the second first round pick to either move UP in the draft for the best QB, or address another pressing need.

That option is now out the window, and for a small, slowish nickel DB, that 'might' become a solid starter in the league.

So, my issue is that we used our "next potential franchise QB pick" on a small DB. To me, that was short sited.

Now, winning cures all ills. If the team is closer to winning than most of us think, and we can get into the playoffs by winning the division or the wildcard, and Orton plays well in the system, then the whole picture changes.

[Tned]

I think they were shocked he was still there.

Combined with no impact DE/DT prospects. My guess is that they looked at Orakpo and said, we have Dumerville that has to convert to OLB, Orakpo is 'pojected' to be a very good OLB, but it is an unkown, Moreno will make an impact immediately, and take pressure off Orton. Can't pass on him.

Considering our defense, the 'conservative' thing to do would probably have been to pick Orakpo at 12 and Ayers at 18. Convert Orakpo to OLB, add 20lbs to Ayers and put him at DE.

[claymore]

The trade to me hinderes on what McD can do with Orton. If he is a QB whisperer than Orton should be great for us. If McD was a one hit wonder we are screwed anywho.

I for one hoped we wouldnt pick up a QB before the 5th this year and maybe not even at all next.

Moreno is who I wanted all along. I liked the Draft, I liked that he stuck to his guys vs reaches.

[Nomad]

Combined with no impact DE/DT prospects. My guess is that they looked at Orakpo and said, we have Dumerville that has to convert to OLB, Orakpo is 'pojected' to be a very good OLB, but it is an unkown, Moreno will make an impact immediately, and take pressure off Orton. Can't pass on him.

Considering our defense, the 'conservative' thing to do would probably have been to pick Orakpo at 12 and Ayers at 18. Convert Orakpo to OLB, add 20lbs to Ayers and put him at DE.

Redskins drafted Orakpo.......red flags;)! just trying to make light of the situation

[Nomad]

The trade to me hinderes on what McD can do with Orton. If he is a QB whisperer than Orton should be great for us. If McD was a one hit wonder we are screwed anywho.

I for one hoped we wouldnt pick up a QB before the 5th this year and maybe not even at all next.

Moreno is who I wanted all along. I liked the Draft, I liked that he stuck to his guys vs reaches.

You're right! I'm glad to see you're giving the coach a chance to prove himself, too bad Cutler could have been the bigger man instead of getting his panties in a wad!! We'll see come Sept!!

[Tned]

You're right! I'm glad to see you're giving the coach a chance to prove himself, too bad Cutler could have been the bigger man instead of getting his panties in a wad!! We'll see come Sept!!

See, every time someone blames the whole thing on Cutler, rather than talking about how the VERY young, rookie head coach screwed the pooch, as every talking head and former player is saying, then the whole Josh/Jay thing will just resurface.

Jay was under contract, said he would not miss any mandatory team activities. Josh wanted him out, he got his wish. Be careful what you wish for.

[TXBRONC]

[/COLOR]
They won't next year either, they made certain of that.......

We can now have horrible season and still not pick very high in the first round. It all depends on how Chicago does this year if they do as well as some analysts think they will we could be selecting a mid to late first round pick.

[Nomad]

See, every time someone blames the whole thing on Cutler, rather than talking about how the VERY young, rookie head coach screwed the pooch, as every talking head and former player is saying, then the whole Josh/Jay thing will just resurface.

Jay was under contract, said he would not miss any mandatory team activities. Josh wanted him out, he got his wish. Be careful what you wish for.

I guess the same could be said about you guys who just throw McDaniels under the bus! I never wished for Jay to go....to grow up yes but he had to carry on like a child. I believe Bowlen made the final decision....prove me wrong on that!!!

But it's ok for you and the others to go around the board degrading McDaniels and treating Cutler like he's innocent. There's nothing wrong with snide comments about players in the COC correct. All parties are guilty of mishandling the situation but I will not let Cutler off the hook and I'll stop my snide comments when others let it go as well. McDaniels is a rookie coach, but I haven't witnessed him with maturity issues like Cutler has on the field, so i give McDaniels the benefit of the doubt on this one.

[claymore]

I dont see the maturity issues that you all have with Cutler. I think everyone screwed up especially the organization. Cutler is a young man that has never dealt with this kind of thing. Not many Franchise QB's have.

Bowlen has 30 years of dealing with the NFL and players. McD has 10?. Xanders has plenty of experience as well.

If you really want to look at who caused this mel;t down, it was the organization.

Pats pride was stung (rightfully so) when Cutler didnt return calls so he dropped the hammer.

No one was a baby, just allot of pride got in the way of the overall goal.

[Tned]

I guess the same could be said about you guys who just throw McDaniels under the bus! I never wished for Jay to go....to grow up yes but he had to carry on like a child. I believe Bowlen made the final decision....prove me wrong on that!!!

But it's ok for you and the others to go around the board degrading McDaniels and treating Cutler like he's innocent. There's nothing wrong with snide comments about players in the COC correct. All parties are guilty of mishandling the situation but I will not let Cutler off the hook and I'll stop my snide comments when others let it go as well. McDaniels is a rookie coach, but I haven't witnessed him with maturity issues like Cutler has on the field, so i give McDaniels the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Yo, Blitz, maybe you should go take a look at my posts and don't put words in my mouth. I have never called Cutler innocent. I have said he acted immaturely, and I think he and his agent used the situation that was created by McDaniels to blow it up, ultimately probably with the intention of getting an extension, but then it went too far.

However, I believe people that place all blame on Cutler are naive. McDaniels clearly handled this like a rookie headcoach, which is why what he did, driving out and trading a 25/26 year old QB of Cutler's talent level, is so unprecedented and he is getting so much heat from the media and former players.

This is one of the problems many people on this message board can't grasp the concept that some of us can place blame on both parties. That it doesn't have to be a "jay is innocent and josh is an idiot" OR "Jay is a crybaby, and Josh was right for getting rid of the baby."

[TXBRONC]

I guess the same could be said about you guys who just throw McDaniels under the bus! I never wished for Jay to go....to grow up yes but he had to carry on like a child. I believe Bowlen made the final decision....prove me wrong on that!!!

But it's ok for you and the others to go around the board degrading McDaniels and treating Cutler like he's innocent. There's nothing wrong with snide comments about players in the COC correct. All parties are guilty of mishandling the situation but I will not let Cutler off the hook and I'll stop my snide comments when others let it go as well. McDaniels is a rookie coach, but I haven't witnessed him with maturity issues like Cutler has on the field, so i give McDaniels the benefit of the doubt on this one.

The two statements I've highlighted are basically a pissing contest. So someone can't prove your belief wrong about who made the final decision can you prove them wrong? Answer: No you can't prove them wrong.

Apparently you haven't read much of Tned posts he's very measured in his responses. I also happen to agree with him that McDaniels screwed pooch. You've also done a bang up job lumping all critical feedback into category, that of degrading the coach.

[Nomad]

Yo, Blitz, maybe you should go take a look at my posts and don't put words in my mouth. I have never called Cutler innocent. I have said he acted immaturely, and I think he and his agent used the situation that was created by McDaniels to blow it up, ultimately probably with the intention of getting an extension, but then it went too far.

However, I believe people that place all blame on Cutler are naive. McDaniels clearly handled this like a rookie headcoach, which is why what he did, driving out and trading a 25/26 year old QB of Cutler's talent level, is so unprecedented and he is getting so much heat from the media and former players.

This is one of the problems many people on this message board can't grasp the concept that some of us can place blame on both parties. That it doesn't have to be a "jay is innocent and josh is an idiot" OR "Jay is a crybaby, and Josh was right for getting rid of the baby."

And I put the blame on ALL parties involved. Again, I believe McDaniels was willing to play the soap opera game till mandatory camp, but Bowlen wasn't after being snubbed. Cutler did a disservice to his teammates for not being at voluntary camps and this is work gets me worked up. He didn't show willingness to be there for his teammates. Have I like all my coaches/ bosses in the past, no! Do I trust my boss, no, he runs a business and will let me go in a heartbeat for the good of the business. I was always under the impression the HC runs the show and not the players. McDaniels is a rookie HC and 10 yrs from now he may be in an interview and admit his first mistake was agreeing with Bowlen to let Cutler go and Cutler won't do the same because he's where he's dreamt of being and that''s why I believe Bowlen did him the favor of going to Chicago. Anyway, I know this is beating a dead horse but if you feel all parties are to balme then present that instead of always repeating it's a rookie HC mistake and fault. And yes i have read your opinions on the issue. Anyway, have a good day Tned and hopefully McDaniel's can resolve the issue with wins, I know we both agree on that one!:D

BTW, what's the age of maturity? No one seems to want to answer this for me but throw 25 and 32 yrs old around like it's equivalent to a teenager. Maybe we should change the voting age, if that's the case!!;)

[Nomad]

The two statements I've highlighted are basically a pissing contest. So someone can't prove your belief wrong about who made the final decision can you prove them wrong? Answer: No you can't prove them wrong.

Apparently you haven't read much of Tned posts he's very measured in his responses. I also happen to agree with him that McDaniels screwed pooch. You've also done a bang up job lumping all critical feedback into category, that of degrading the coach.

No one knows what the hell happened! I told Tned what I believed and to prove me wrong because no one can prove whether Mcdaniels, Cutler, or Bowlen did the right or wrong. It's all assumptions and speculations. Many here seem to blame the HC more than the other two! I know how to read feed back and I'm open minded enough to decipher through it and my conclusion their a handfull that solely blame the coach, other that soley blame Cutler and most blame all. I fall into the ALL catergory.

Well, Lord Almighty TXBRONC agrees McDaniels screwed the pooch. There we have it folks the answer to what happened at Dove Valley!;):lol:

[TXBRONC]

No one knows what the hell happened! I told Tned what I believed and to prove me wrong because no one can prove whether Mcdaniels, Cutler, or Bowlen did the right or wrong. It's all assumptions and speculations. Many here seem to blame the HC more than the other two! I know how to read feed back and I'm open minded enough to decipher through it and my conclusion their a handfull that solely blame the coach, other that soley blame Cutler and most blame all. I fall into the ALL catergory.

Well, Lord Almighty TXBRONC agrees McDaniels screwed the pooch. There we have it folks the answer to what happened at Dove Valley!;):lol:

Right you're open minded. :lol:

[LRtagger]

I'm not mad that we didn't move up to draft Raji because it is still a question mark how he will transition to NT. He is an explosive player and the best NT in the class, but if he does not fit the mold that you want to see in a NT, then moving up to get him is not smart. I think we would have picked him at 12, but my guess is the guys were not in love with him enough to trade up to 8 for him.

I love the talent we aquired and it seems the staff knew exactly who they wanted coming in and did whatever they had to do to get their guys. I appreciate that, especially on the defensive side because we all know Mike had no clue what he was looking for in defensive talent. At least now we have a solid scheme and we are doing whatever it takes to aquire guys that fit the mold.

The only thing I didnt like was giving up the pick for Smith. I don't know if it was money or what, but I was REALLY excited about having a shot at Eric Berry next year. I think he will be a perrenial All-Pro safety and we really had a shot to get him. The talent pool coming out next year is going to be stellar in the first round and I hate that we gave up an opportunity to get a real impact player. Maybe Smith will pan out as that type of player, but I would feel much MUCH safer with a guy like Berry or Mays than I would a guy like Smith or McBath.

I like the talent we are bringing in, though. I think the organization is now moving in the right direction. I also think Brandstater has the tools to be a successful NFL QB after a couple years learning the system. I firmly believe it.

[Tned]

BTW, what's the age of maturity? No one seems to want to answer this for me but throw 25 and 32 yrs old around like it's equivalent to a teenager. Maybe we should change the voting age, if that's the case!!;)

Personally, I have seen 16 year olds that were EXTREMELY mature, and I have seen 40 year olds (especially if they were heavy drinkers or had other dependencies) that had the maturity of a teen ager. I don't think there is one age of maturity, IMO.

[Rick]

I am ok with the draft. I had a few different directions I would have gone but for the most part I can't really say much bad about the guys we got.

My only peve I could say about it is the second rounder on a pure blocking TE.

I would think we could get a TE that does nothing but block anytime anywhere. Hell Mustard could stay for that purpose.

Thats my only issue, but Graham is considered one of the best blocking TES in the league and maybe this kid is the second coming of him, I don't know.

Graham can atleast catch though.

[Dortoh]

The second round was pure shit.

[Thnikkaman]

Where is the option for "Having to read the posts of 400 whiney broncos fans about how we screwed up the draft again".

[Northman]

The second round was pure shit.


Look at the bright side. At least we are consistent although i think if this had been Shanny there would be even a bigger outrage than there has been. Im already seeing comparisons with Smith to Williams and yet neither are going to fix the Dline issue that has been the crux of our problem for the last 5 years. The more things change the more they stay the same i guess.

[dogfish]

I love the talent we aquired and it seems the staff knew exactly who they wanted coming in and did whatever they had to do to get their guys. I appreciate that, especially on the defensive side because we all know Mike had no clue what he was looking for in defensive talent. At least now we have a solid scheme and we are doing whatever it takes to aquire guys that fit the mold.



tagger, i just want to play devil's advocate for a minute, because i've seen this same sentiment posted a lot. . .

would you (or anyone else that has posted that, feel free to jump in) have felt that way if it was shanahan running the draft, overpaying to move up, and making several picks that a lot of people considered reaches? when we got moss, it was pretty much the same situation-- they knew exactly who they wanted, and did what they had to do to get him-- and i've seen an awful lot of criticism of that move. . . . moss was as good a fit for bates' scheme as thsee guys are for nolan's. . . . are these moves different from that one?

[Northman]

tagger, i just want to play devil's advocate for a minute, because i've seen this same sentiment posted a lot. . .

would you (or anyone else that has posted that, feel free to jump in) have felt that way if it was shanahan running the draft, overpaying to move up, and making several picks that a lot of people considered reaches? when we got moss, it was pretty much the same situation-- they knew exactly who they wanted, and did what they had to do to get him-- and i've seen an awful lot of criticism of that move. . . . moss was as good a fit for bates' scheme as thsee guys are for nolan's. . . . are these moves different from that one?


Great minds think a like.

[TXBRONC]

tagger, i just want to play devil's advocate for a minute, because i've seen this same sentiment posted a lot. . .

would you (or anyone else that has posted that, feel free to jump in) have felt that way if it was shanahan running the draft, overpaying to move up, and making several picks that a lot of people considered reaches? when we got moss, it was pretty much the same situation-- they knew exactly who they wanted, and did what they had to do to get him-- and i've seen an awful lot of criticism of that move. . . . moss was as good a fit for bates' scheme as thsee guys are for nolan's. . . . are these moves different from that one?

If Shanahan had been the one drafting these players he would have been ridiculed and he would have been criticized as having no plan.

[Thnikkaman]

If Shanahan had been the one drafting these players he would have been ridiculed and he would have been criticized as having no plan.

Really? Do you know for that for sure? I am willing to bet that if Shanny made this draft he would be getting the same type of criticism as McD is getting. But like you, I don't have a magical device that lets me see into parallel universes.

[Elevation inc]

tagger, i just want to play devil's advocate for a minute, because i've seen this same sentiment posted a lot. . .

would you (or anyone else that has posted that, feel free to jump in) have felt that way if it was shanahan running the draft, overpaying to move up, and making several picks that a lot of people considered reaches? when we got moss, it was pretty much the same situation-- they knew exactly who they wanted, and did what they had to do to get him-- and i've seen an awful lot of criticism of that move. . . . moss was as good a fit for bates' scheme as thsee guys are for nolan's. . . . are these moves different from that one?


if shanny drafted BPA and really made a effort to get the guys he wanted instead of smokescreening everyone, picking random guys and reaching for needs, we would have much more talent on this team.


MCD took his BPA for what he wanted to do, We also had workouts and converstaions at somepoint with every pick we drafted, we knew what we were getting and who. we also knew how they would fit.


If shanny had bee that meticolous with BPA instead of big reaches for need, and only focusing on that, then perhaps he would have much more overall talent on this team. instead he had blinders on.....


Its funny many act like the sky is falling...you know why it isnt???

its because in the end the scouts and FO have a far better ability to analyze from where there standing and what they have seen than those of us poor souls or media heads who do mock drafts and frequent this site and the news, hoping we can brag about what pick we got right and who should have gone where.

Mayock specifically stated he feels the draft chart was worthless before the draft started as teams are focusing more on getting there players regardless of where the media or the draft board has a player. So to us many of these players might be reaches, but the denver broncos they werent and they got all the guys they wanted to begin with.


I mean seriously why is it a reach, whats the proof other than some random person for the draft board throwing a value on someone......what makes them right...because they said so?????

[G_Money]

tagger, i just want to play devil's advocate for a minute, because i've seen this same sentiment posted a lot. . .

would you (or anyone else that has posted that, feel free to jump in) have felt that way if it was shanahan running the draft, overpaying to move up, and making several picks that a lot of people considered reaches? when we got moss, it was pretty much the same situation-- they knew exactly who they wanted, and did what they had to do to get him-- and i've seen an awful lot of criticism of that move. . . . moss was as good a fit for bates' scheme as thsee guys are for nolan's. . . . are these moves different from that one?

I'm having a lot of trouble with the Smith pick.

It has nothing to do with him as a player - I think getting a #2 corner in the 2nd is fine - when we drafted D-Will, that was fine.

But the cost next year of either drafting a NT like Cody or a S like Berry outright - adding a true game changer - or packaging our #1s to move up and get one of those sorts of guys...

That's a tough pill to swallow. When you saw the Bears add a very similar corner in DJ Moore in the FOURTH it certainly hurt more. That doesn't mean Smith is a bad player. I think he can potentially Ray Crockett a very successful career in the pros. He's got good ball skills and he's a fighter. We'll see how he does against the tall wideouts in our division, and the rules are far different than when Crockett played, but he should hang around the league a while as a nickel even if he can't hang as a #2.

But we bailed on trying to lock in a Polamalu or Haynesworth next year in favor of a #2 corner. With the rules favoring offense so much these days spending a top-15, top-10 pick on a corner is a tough sell unless his name is Champ. Champ went what, #6? We COULD be picking #6 next year. Like I said, it hurts.

But we didn't add a ton of bad players. Moreno, Smith, even Quinn should play in the league for many years. We just spent 5 first day picks and got one impact player in Moreno. I don't think Ayers will make it work in a 3-4, I don't think McBath will be more than a Sam Brandon, I don't think Quinn will be more than a Carswell. Adding a Brandon and a Carswell in a draft is not BAD - they hang around a while and can definitely contribute.

But none of them will change a game, except for Moreno. At least IMO. And if I'm gonna go balls-out in a draft to get My Guys, I'd rather My Guys be impact players, not backup blocking TEs for a team with a pair of the best young tackles in football.

But we're gonna see. It looks to me like Josh learned from Belichick to take 2nd rounders and not first rounders, so he flushed next year's 1st on purpose. I would rather he traded down than gave away value, but it's a valid viewpoint.

As long as you know how to get Your Players in the second and can make those players into quality scheme monsters. Ayers is a shot at that. Smith and McBath are both shots at that. Quinn is one too.

I guess I'm just not seeing the scheme in my head that would allow them to bring significant value to the team. Can we get to the pre-season yet? Camp is gonna be a ball of craziness this year...

~G

[Elevation inc]

If Shanahan had been the one drafting these players he would have been ridiculed and he would have been criticized as having no plan.

i actually would have been happy to see shanny draft like this.....a versatile true well rounded DE that can play run and pass, and even rush standing up. not some one dimensioanl tweener like moss, A elite RB who doesnt run his mouth about getting 2000 yds yet he was a slow undrafted FA that cant score, a great instinctual corner who can groom behind champ and be ready for a full time gig next year. 2 very good young safties to groom behind 2 good vets at a position that has been a achiles heal since the playoffs of 2005. a great blocking TE to help the redzone, true interior OL depth.....great UDFA's.


the secondary alone improved ten fold, that alone brings us to a middle tier defense we were 27th last year against the pass, we now should be around 15 worse case. our safties and secondary also will prevent that 10 yd gain from becoming 50 all the time and improve our defense. i do not see any reason we should be a crappy defense otehr than we may struggle on the front a bit, but we have enough playmakers now at the second level to stop the damage from becoming insane.


we will be a improved team next year, and we did improve the talent on this team quite a bit.

[Northman]

if shanny drafted BPA and really made a effort to get the guys he wanted instead of smokescreening everyone, picking random guys and reaching for needs, we would have much more talent on this team.


MCD took his BPA for what he wanted to do, We also had workouts and converstaions at somepoint with every pick we drafted, we knew what we were getting and who. we also knew how they would fit.


If shanny had bee that meticolous with BPA instead of big reaches for need, and only focusing on that, then perhaps he would have much more overall talent on this team. instead he had blinders on.....


Its funny many act like the sky is falling...you know why it isnt???

its because in the end the scouts and FO have a far better ability to analyze from where there standing and what they have seen than those of us poor souls or media heads who do mock drafts and frequent this site and the news, hoping we can brag about what pick we got right and who should have gone where.

Mayock specifically stated he feels the draft chart was worthless before the draft started as teams are focusing more on getting there players regardless of where the media or the draft board has a player. So to us many of these players might be reaches, but the denver broncos they werent and they got all the guys they wanted to begin with.


I mean seriously why is it a reach, whats the proof other than some random person for the draft board throwing a value on someone......what makes them right...because they said so?????

What makes you right? Im going by past history when it comes to the Broncos. What are you going by?

[Northman]

the secondary alone improved ten fold, .

Based on what? Your expert analysis?

[Elevation inc]

I'm having a lot of trouble with the Smith pick.

It has nothing to do with him as a player - I think getting a #2 corner in the 2nd is fine - when we drafted D-Will, that was fine.

But the cost next year of either drafting a NT like Cody or a S like Berry outright - adding a true game changer - or packaging our #1s to move up and get one of those sorts of guys...

That's a tough pill to swallow. When you saw the Bears add a very similar corner in DJ Moore in the FOURTH it certainly hurt more. That doesn't mean Smith is a bad player. I think he can potentially Ray Crockett a very successful career in the pros. He's got good ball skills and he's a fighter. We'll see how he does against the tall wideouts in our division, and the rules are far different than when Crockett played, but he should hang around the league a while as a nickel even if he can't hang as a #2.

But we bailed on trying to lock in a Polamalu or Haynesworth next year in favor of a #2 corner. With the rules favoring offense so much these days spending a top-15, top-10 pick on a corner is a tough sell unless his name is Champ. Champ went what, #6? We COULD be picking #6 next year. Like I said, it hurts.

But we didn't add a ton of bad players. Moreno, Smith, even Quinn should play in the league for many years. We just spent 5 first day picks and got one impact player in Moreno. I don't think Ayers will make it work in a 3-4, I don't think McBath will be more than a Sam Brandon, I don't think Quinn will be more than a Carswell. Adding a Brandon and a Carswell in a draft is not BAD - they hang around a while and can definitely contribute.

But none of them will change a game, except for Moreno. At least IMO. And if I'm gonna go balls-out in a draft to get My Guys, I'd rather My Guys be impact players, not backup blocking TEs for a team with a pair of the best young tackles in football.

But we're gonna see. It looks to me like Josh learned from Belichick to take 2nd rounders and not first rounders, so he flushed next year's 1st on purpose. I would rather he traded down than gave away value, but it's a valid viewpoint.

As long as you know how to get Your Players in the second and can make those players into quality scheme monsters. Ayers is a shot at that. Smith and McBath are both shots at that. Quinn is one too.

I guess I'm just not seeing the scheme in my head that would allow them to bring significant value to the team. Can we get to the pre-season yet? Camp is gonna be a ball of craziness this year...

~G



this thinking is a what if line and its weak, what if cody tears his ACL next year and berry has a bad year and doesnt declare, then what...what if the draft class becomes even weaker than this year and we are stuck paying top 3 money to a player that doesnt deserve it like KC did with jackson.

IM not ready for that. what if chicago tanks becasue cutler tears his acl and now we end up with the 3rd and 7 picks, talk about a butload of money when you still have to extend guys like dumervil, marshall, and kuper.....

they did this for finacial reasons as much as belicheck let a guy like cassel go for a second rd pick so he didnt have to pay 14 million. its called financial smarts and teams are doing it much more because of rookie contracts.


last year when dorsey and ellis came out everyone tagged them as the top 2 with a weak class behind them and the following year would be much better, what happend outsdie of raji, and jerry it is just as bad.


if you keep waiting for next year like shanny did eventually all your drafts end up like his first ones....grab your players while you can each and every year, regardless of what the media and fans think. the executioner will come if you fail to put results on the field. that time hasnt come yet.

[TXBRONC]

Really? Do you know for that for sure? I am willing to bet that if Shanny made this draft he would be getting the same type of criticism as McD is getting. But like you, I don't have a magical device that lets me see into parallel universes.

Apparently you didn't one bit of attention to the fact that I was responding to Dogfish's hypothetical then that's your problem. I have yet see a lot of harsh criticims for his picks. While I dont know with absolute certainty the same people that are either remaining silent or praising the selections I am confident they would have skeward Shanahan if these were his picks.

[Dortoh]

i actually would have been happy to see shanny draft like this.....a versatile true well rounded DE that can play run and pass, and even rush standing up. not some one dimensioanl tweener like moss, A elite RB who doesnt run his mouth about getting 2000 yds yet he was a slow undrafted FA that cant score, a great instinctual corner who can groom behind champ and be ready for a full time gig next year. 2 very good young safties to groom behind 2 good vets at a position that has been a achiles heal since the playoffs of 2005. a great blocking TE to help the redzone, true interior OL depth.....great UDFA's.


the secondary alone improved ten fold, that alone brings us to a middle tier defense we were 27th last year against the pass, we now should be around 15 worse case. our safties and secondary also will prevent that 10 yd gain from becoming 50 all the time and improve our defense. i do not see any reason we should be a crappy defense otehr than we may struggle on the front a bit, but we have enough playmakers now at the second level to stop the damage from becoming insane.

we will be a improved team next year, and we did improve the talent on this team quite a bit.

I'm all for the glass is half full but you might be reaching just a wee bit here. Speculation at best.

[Elevation inc]

Based on what? Your expert analysis?

no your right dawkins and hill is way worse than mcree and mauel and vernon fox...oh wait seventh rd pick josh barret that misses tackles is much better than ballhawks from colleg that can tackle in mcbath and bruton. hmmm cant remebr the last time we had a safety since 2005 that actually had the speed to run down a RB or WR either. oh and champ is healthy so thats a plus, jack williams and josh bell both have a year under there belt, and alphonso smith is a great leader and ballhawk something we didnt have in the nickel unless you felt paymah was good


sorry if i feel those moves are better than having mcree and manuel along with vernon fox and hernza jones


your right my opinion sucks........or wait maybe i just might be onto something. only blind people focus on the fact that are defense was jsut the result of bad run defense(alot of that came from poor tackling by LB's and safeties not the front 4) we were a horrednous pass defense that could INT the ball, deflect or keep up with any reciver not to mention slowik had our safties lined up as punt retuners every game and we still let huge runs go off.

dont get it twisted our secondary on tape was a huge reason we failed on d last year, it directly contributed to not stopping things at first or second level and allowing big plays constantly. gashing us for yds over and over again.


better yet lets trade alphonso smith, mcbath, and bruton back to the Free agent pool so we can bring back mcree and manuel....sounds great

[Elevation inc]

I'm all for the glass is half full but you might be reaching just a wee bit here. Speculation at best.

perhaps, or perhaps the tape doesnt lie and the secondary was in fact a catalyst for our majority of defensive problems last year

[Northman]

Apparently you didn't one bit of attention to the fact that I was responding to Dogfish's hypothetical then that's your problem. I have yet see a lot of harsh criticims for his picks. While I dont know with absolute certainty the same people that are either remaining silent or praising the selections I am confident they would have skeward Shanahan if these were his picks. If you think I have a majical device that lets me see in parallel unniverses then I guess it sucks to be you?

The following year after the Champ trade we took Williams and Foxworth and believe me, there was a thunder of angry fans about that. Fast forward to now, Shanahan is fired and the one consistent thing that hadnt changed was addressing the Dline. Now, the new office comes in continues to not address and yet, go after more DB's and secondary personnel. Are the players good at their positions? Probably. Will they make a difference without any pass rush? Probably not.

[Dortoh]

no your right dawkins and hill is way worse than mcree and mauel and vernon fox...oh wait seventh rd pick josh barret that misses tackles is much better than ballhawks from colleg that can tackle in mcbath and bruton. hmmm cant remebr the last time we had a safety since 2005 that actually had the speed to run down a RB or WR either. oh and champ is healthy so thats a plus, jack williams and josh bell both have a year under there belt, and alphonso smith is a great leader and ballhawk something we didnt have in the nickel unless you felt paymah was good


sorry if i feel those moves are better than having mcree and manuel along with vernon fox and hernza jones


your right my opinion sucks........or wait maybe i just might be onto something. only blind people focus on the fact that are defense was jsut the result of bad run defense(alot of that came from poor tackling by LB's and safeties not the front 4) we were a horrednous pass defense that could INT the ball, deflect or keep up with any reciver not to mention slowik had our safties lined up as punt retuners every game and we still let huge runs go off.

dont get it twisted our secondary on tape was a huge reason we failed on d last year, it directly contributed to not stopping things at first or second level and allowing big plays constantly. gashing us for yds over and over again.


better yet lets trade alphonso smith, mcbath, and bruton back to the Free agent pool so we can bring back mcree and manuel....sounds great

Hey if these new guys can cover wr's for 10-15 seconds per pass play then you are really onto something here. :coffee:

[Elevation inc]

What makes you right? Im going by past history when it comes to the Broncos. What are you going by?

who said anything about being right i said in the end the FO is more qualified to decide if the picks were good or not, not you or I


i can play devils advocate just like the rest of you can though, or then again whats makes you right

[Dortoh]

perhaps, or perhaps the tape doesnt lie and the secondary was in fact a catalyst for our majority of defensive problems last year

your right the tape does not lie. It clearly shows qbs standing in the pocket with their thumbs stuck squarely up their ass's while wr's ran free all over the field.

[Elevation inc]

Hey if these new guys can cover wr's for 10-15 seconds per pass play then you are really onto something here. :coffee:

actually i cant tell ya how many times we just missed a sack because of a 5- 7 yd slant turned into 30 yds.....becasue our secondary was slow, couldnt keep up with TE's and forgot how to tackle. or they were playing 15 yds off. i guess the DE's need to be able to ge ta sack in 2 seconds or they suck huh???? guess all DE's can do that

Ever heard of coverage sacks, many teams avg about 10-15 a year for those when the secondary is competent. we dont need a elite DL we need a balanced defense to right thi ship. Dumervil wasnt healthy, moss doesnt belong in the 3-4 they didnt let crowder play, they played thomas in the wrong role, they didnt rotate peterson enough and we had dewayne bad knees robertosn, thats a number of reasons right there for piss poor pass rush, some of which have been fixed or will be fixed.....

[Elevation inc]

your right the tape does not lie. It clearly shows qbs standing in the pocket with their thumbs stuck squarely up their ass's while wr's ran free all over the field.

perhaps your not paying close enough attention if you think that was the case the whole year.

[Northman]

no your right dawkins and hill is way worse than mcree and mauel and vernon fox...oh wait seventh rd pick josh barret that misses tackles is much better than ballhawks from colleg that can tackle in mcbath and bruton. hmmm cant remebr the last time we had a safety since 2005 that actually had the speed to run down a RB or WR either. oh and champ is healthy so thats a plus, jack williams and josh bell both have a year under there belt, and alphonso smith is a great leader and ballhawk something we didnt have in the nickel unless you felt paymah was good

Nope. We are in agreement here. Josh is getting his own guys in so we can win. Awesome.



sorry if i feel those moves are better than having mcree and manuel along with vernon fox and hernza jones

Ok, so we've established that you dont know anymore than other average joe on here. Great. Thats what i just wanted to clear up here.



your right my opinion sucks........

Dont know if it sucks but if you say so.


or wait maybe i just might be onto something. only blind people focus on the fact that are defense was jsut the result of bad run defense(alot of that came from poor tackling by LB's and safeties not the front 4) we were a horrednous pass defense that could INT the ball, deflect or keep up with any reciver not to mention slowik had our safties lined up as punt retuners every game and we still let huge runs go off.

dont get it twisted our secondary on tape was a huge reason we failed on d last year, it directly contributed to not stopping things at first or second level and allowing big plays constantly. gashing us for yds over and over again.

Your opinion. But hey, can i put you on record than as saying we will at least win 10 games? According to you the players are better already and some havent even taken the field yet. But since you've declared it i guess we are good to go now.



better yet lets trade alphonso smith, mcbath, and bruton back to the Free agent pool so we can bring back mcree and manuel....sounds great

Who said anything about trading them?

[Dortoh]

actually i cant tell ya how many times we just missed a sack because of a 5- 7 yd slant turned into 30 yds.....becasue our secondary was slow, couldnt keep up with TE's and forgot how to tackle. or they were playing 15 yds off. i guess the DE's need to be able to ge ta sack in 2 seconds or they suck huh???? guess all DE's can do that

Ever heard of coverage sacks, many teams avg about 10-15 a year for those when the secondary is competent. we dont need a elite DL we need a balanced defense to right thi ship. Dumervil wasnt healthy, moss doesnt belong in the 3-4 they didnt let crowder play, they played thomas in the wrong role, they didnt rotate peterson enough and we had dewayne bad knees robertosn, thats a number of reasons right there for piss poor pass rush, some of which have been fixed or will be fixed.....

wait we just missed sacks because of 5-7 yard slants that resulted in missed tackles LMAO um ok

[Elevation inc]

in the 2 games after oakland we were getting thrown all over and shit was going down hill in the secondary, we started experimenting with crap, and out came the 3-4 BS in which we got abused becasue we didnt know how to run it and we had piss poor tacklers in teh second level. our run defense nose dived, we went back to the 4-3 and again teams passed all over our ass. our D was average for sacks we could have done alot more no doubt but i would wager anything that had to do with coaching and personnel use more than the players themselves. outside of robertson, moss and engleberger of course, not to mention winborn, webster, mcrre and manuel....

[Northman]

wait we just missed sacks because of 5-7 yard slants that resulted in missed tackles LMAO um ok

I dont recall Big Ben throwing a lot of slants in the AFCCG. I actually remember a very good DB not catching the INT. And i could of swore i saw Ben cooking flapjacks in the pocket. That boy was smiling all day. Must of thought he was playing Madden or something.

[Elevation inc]

Nope. We are in agreement here. Josh is getting his own guys in so we can win. Awesome.




Ok, so we've established that you dont know anymore than other average joe on here. Great. Thats what i just wanted to clear up here.




Dont know if it sucks but if you say so.



Your opinion. But hey, can i put you on record than as saying we will at least win 10 games? According to you the players are better already and some havent even taken the field yet. But since you've declared it i guess we are good to go now.




Who said anything about trading them?


hmm guess sarcasm is hard to understand for ya.;) and when did i say ten games we woul win, stop trying to put words from a fictious thing in my mouth. i never said we would win ten games, but i am quite confident we will be improved on all sides of the ball, for me that shows me we are headed in a right direction for a change.

and seriously can you honestly tell me mcrre, manuel, jones, and verno fox are better than hill, dawkins,mcbath, and bruton, seriously the safties last year couldnt even catch a thief that was old and decripd and running on one leg.....:D

[Northman]

Oh yea, and what about Favre? Wasnt that Bly getting burned on a post pattern? Seriously? I think on that exact play Favre was doing the jig with his walker after the play.

[Elevation inc]

I dont recall Big Ben throwing a lot of slants in the AFCCG. I actually remember a very good DB not catching the INT. And i could of swore i saw Ben cooking flapjacks in the pocket. That boy was smiling all day. Must of thought he was playing Madden or something.

actually we lost that game becasue of jake plummer, d-will, lynch the rest of the secondary that couldnt cover TE's and a run game that dissapeared

[Elevation inc]

Oh yea, and what about Favre? Wasnt that Bly getting burned on a post pattern? Seriously? I think on that exact play Favre was doing the jig with his walker after the play.

um that wasnt last year.....

[Northman]

hmm guess sarcasm is hard to understand for ya.;) and when did i say ten games we woul win, stop trying to put words from a fictious thing in my mouth. i never said we would win ten games, but i am quite confident we will be improved on all sides of the ball, for me that shows me we are headed in a right direction for a change.

Maybe, maybe not. But like i said the last 5 years have shown we have a serious problem up front. So im lead to believe that McCree, Manuel, and such suck but Moss, Thomas, etc are great now that McD is here? If McD wins this year (and im expecting at least 9 wins considering we went 8-8 with the guys you say suck so badly) than i can eat my crow all day long because at the team is winning. But with no pass rush i dont see it.


and seriously can you honestly tell me mcrre, manuel, jones, and verno fox are better than hill, dawkins,mcbath, and bruton, seriously the safties last year couldnt even catch a thief that was old and decripd and running on one leg.....:D

On a individual scale? No. But you might be feeling a little silly when we again cant force a pass rush and opposing QB's have ten days to pick us apart. Having a fast secondary is great, but when they have to spend a lot of time chasing the WR and the QB's time is greater than 10 minutes somewhere along the line they will get open.

[Elevation inc]

look obviosuly we see different sides thats fine. i have no problem with the otehr side, and quite frankly if you didnt oppose my view what would we talk about.....i feel we will be improved on defense and the secondary was a huge issue last year, i also know we sucked stopping the run and getting to the QB, but i feel injuries, coaching and the secondary were catlysts for that.

i do belive we will be a better team next year. i do belive we will win some game we shouldnt and get rolled in some as well.....but at the end of the year i wont be hearing that denver just fielded the worst defense in the last 30 years and a sixteenth ranked scoring offense. it will be improved....is it my opinion yes!!! does it mean squat from a 200 plus post poster...NO!!!

[Northman]

um that wasnt last year.....


Year doesnt matter, the problem still existed and thats why i gave you examples. Or did you go in denial and forget?

[Elevation inc]

Maybe, maybe not. But like i said the last 5 years have shown we have a serious problem up front. So im lead to believe that McCree, Manuel, and such suck but Moss, Thomas, etc are great now that McD is here? If McD wins this year (and im expecting at least 9 wins considering we went 8-8 with the guys you say suck so badly) than i can eat my crow all day long because at the team is winning. But with no pass rush i dont see it.



On a individual scale? No. But you might be feeling a little silly when we again cant force a pass rush and opposing QB's have ten days to pick us apart. Having a fast secondary is great, but when they have to spend a lot of time chasing the WR and the QB's time is greater than 10 minutes somewhere along the line they will get open.

i think our pass rush will be much improved with dumervil, ayers, crowder, and reid,but thats just me. its also probally goinjg to be proven next year just how many inept coaches there were last year.

I belive MCD did right in cleaning house of everyone but burns, dennison, and turner

[Northman]

i think our pass rush will be much improved with dumervil, ayers, crowder, and reid,but thats just me. its also probally goinjg to be proven next year just how many inept coaches there were last year.

I belive MCD did right in cleaning house of everyone but burns, dennison, and turner

We shall see.

[Thnikkaman]

Apparently you didn't one bit of attention to the fact that I was responding to Dogfish's hypothetical then that's your problem. I have yet see a lot of harsh criticims for his picks. While I dont know with absolute certainty the same people that are either remaining silent or praising the selections I am confident they would have skeward Shanahan if these were his picks.

My problem is when people try to make their hypotheticals sound like expert analysis. I don't know enough about the players that were drafted since I'm not a college football guy. What I do know as should everyone else on this board taking this draft like it is the end of the world, and this is based on the outcome of every other draft that has taken place, is that we won't know how well we did in this draft for 3 or 4 years. For all we know, Knowshawn will get his ass handed to him day after day in the pros, or he could be the next TD.

I know its the offseason, but people need to learn some patience. We will find out if we are the next Patriots or the next Lions come December.

[CoachChaz]

I'm having a lot of trouble with the Smith pick.

It has nothing to do with him as a player - I think getting a #2 corner in the 2nd is fine - when we drafted D-Will, that was fine.

But the cost next year of either drafting a NT like Cody or a S like Berry outright - adding a true game changer - or packaging our #1s to move up and get one of those sorts of guys...

That's a tough pill to swallow. When you saw the Bears add a very similar corner in DJ Moore in the FOURTH it certainly hurt more. That doesn't mean Smith is a bad player. I think he can potentially Ray Crockett a very successful career in the pros. He's got good ball skills and he's a fighter. We'll see how he does against the tall wideouts in our division, and the rules are far different than when Crockett played, but he should hang around the league a while as a nickel even if he can't hang as a #2.

But we bailed on trying to lock in a Polamalu or Haynesworth next year in favor of a #2 corner. With the rules favoring offense so much these days spending a top-15, top-10 pick on a corner is a tough sell unless his name is Champ. Champ went what, #6? We COULD be picking #6 next year. Like I said, it hurts.

But we didn't add a ton of bad players. Moreno, Smith, even Quinn should play in the league for many years. We just spent 5 first day picks and got one impact player in Moreno. I don't think Ayers will make it work in a 3-4, I don't think McBath will be more than a Sam Brandon, I don't think Quinn will be more than a Carswell. Adding a Brandon and a Carswell in a draft is not BAD - they hang around a while and can definitely contribute.

But none of them will change a game, except for Moreno. At least IMO. And if I'm gonna go balls-out in a draft to get My Guys, I'd rather My Guys be impact players, not backup blocking TEs for a team with a pair of the best young tackles in football.

But we're gonna see. It looks to me like Josh learned from Belichick to take 2nd rounders and not first rounders, so he flushed next year's 1st on purpose. I would rather he traded down than gave away value, but it's a valid viewpoint.

As long as you know how to get Your Players in the second and can make those players into quality scheme monsters. Ayers is a shot at that. Smith and McBath are both shots at that. Quinn is one too.

I guess I'm just not seeing the scheme in my head that would allow them to bring significant value to the team. Can we get to the pre-season yet? Camp is gonna be a ball of craziness this year...

~G

There is a reason why guys like this stick around. They are smart, versatile team players that dont make stupid mistakes. Those are the types of guys we drafted and over the course of 60 minutes, the smart players usually out-perform those working on talent alone.

I guess I'm just not convinced that the tallest, fastest and strongest players are always the best.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

My take on the draft is - WAIT AND SEE - that is what is important to me - wait and see if these players have a definite impact when it comes to wins - in making the team a better team, etc., etc.

That is only something we will know when the season is over - no way to tell before.

[honz]

Robert Ayers is going to have 13 sacks this year. Doom with 17. Moss with 9. Reid with 6. Thomas with 32.

[Dortoh]

There is a reason why guys like this stick around. They are smart, versatile team players that dont make stupid mistakes. Those are the types of guys we drafted and over the course of 60 minutes, the smart players usually out-perform those working on talent alone.

I guess I'm just not convinced that the tallest, fastest and strongest players are always the best.

I do agree with this. My issue is the price tag. A 1st and 2nd for a cb is pretty steep no?

[Elevation inc]

Year doesnt matter, the problem still existed and thats why i gave you examples. Or did you go in denial and forget?


no i get ya we havent had a good pass rush for years, but is MCD really suppose to come in a fix that with tweeners who are just as unproven as the ones we have. should he have drafted seven front seven guys just to pray a couple stick, shanny did that and it screwed him. becasue he never really knew what he was getting. The broncos FO spent hours with the picks before they drafted them in workouts, for once we really know what kind of players we are getting instead of the double answers and smoke screens shanny gave


MCd focused on the players he felt could play, and contribute right away. why is that a bad thing if he felt the front seven quality was crappy and he bypassed that for other quality players in his mind.....

[Elevation inc]

I do agree with this. My issue is the price tag. A 1st and 2nd for a cb is pretty steep no?

we gave up a first only and what if it eneded up being the number 1 overall should we really fork out 50 million guarenteed to a QB or terrence cody who has motor concerns. what if we actually end up screwing seattle and they are forced to pay the money and we end up with pick 20, i dont find that a waste at all, i call that finacially smart so guys like marshall, kuper,and dumervil can be extended as well as sign neccessary FA's

[honz]

I do agree with this. My issue is the price tag. A 1st and 2nd for a cb is pretty steep no?

I hope Smith turns into a stud and that we don't regret giving that pick away, but I must admit, it was a very risky move...color me worried.

[T.K.O.]

my biggest peve is probably that we passed on maualuga @ 37,that being said nolan must see things in the guys we have that we are all missing
i am stoked about moreno ,i cant remember the last time we drafted a rb that high (if ever)
so hopefully he makes the transition to the nfl quickly and plays up to expectations.
i do know even with a HOF qb it took getting a great back for elway and the broncos to reach the promised land.
so i think that was a good move.and i know we stopped san diego from getting him so if he does pan out we killed 2 birds with 1 stone not having to face another great back twice a year!

[Northman]

MCd focused on the players he felt could play, and contribute right away. why is that a bad thing if he felt the front seven quality was crappy and he bypassed that for other quality players in his mind.....


And thats fine, he is the Coach. However, im sure Shanahan felt the players he chose were all great too. Again for the record, the first 4 guys we chose are solid players at their respective positions. But, i have a very hard time buying into the idea that somehow NE thought Brace and Butler were enough (while covering two needs) and yet McD felt that only a CB and S (positions that in my opinion were very deep this year) were worthy of drafting so high. Then, we move up to take a TE who although will fit our system just wasnt rated high enough and could of been had with either the second 3rd rounder or a early 4th. And even then thats just being generous. So, my arguement isnt about the DB and S as players, but where they were taken. It really seems to me that McD got overly ansy.

[Dortoh]

My take on the draft is - WAIT AND SEE - that is what is important to me - wait and see if these players have a definite impact when it comes to wins - in making the team a better team, etc., etc.

That is only something we will know when the season is over - no way to tell before.

I agree 100% but yaking/debating back and forth is half the fun of post draft discussion :beer:

[Elevation inc]

I hope Smith turns into a stud and that we don't regret giving that pick away, but I must admit, it was a very risky move...color me worried.

it was risky, but it was smart and bold, and when shanny reached it was for injury prone pet project players or character risks, thats not the case here and thats a big plus.....

[Dortoh]

And thats fine, he is the Coach. However, im sure Shanahan felt the players he chose were all great too. Again for the record, the first 4 guys we chose are solid players at their respective positions. But, i have a very hard time buying into the idea that somehow NE thought Brace and Butler were enough (while covering two needs) and yet McD felt that only a CB and S (positions that in my opinion were very deep this year) were worthy of drafting so high. Then, we move up to take a TE who although will fit our system just wasnt rated high enough and could of been had with either the second 3rd rounder or a early 4th. And even then thats just being generous. So, my arguement isnt about the DB and S as players, but where they were taken. It really seems to me that McD got overly ansy.

My feelings exactly. Not so much who we took but where and at what cost.

I have a hard time looking at our roster and feeling like there were no dlineman anywhere in this draft that could not have helped upgrade the weakest portion of our team.

Ayers IMO will stand up in the 3-4 FWIW

[Dortoh]

it was risky, but it was smart and bold, and when shanny reached it was for injury prone pet project players or character risks, thats not the case here and thats a big plus.....


Finally we agree on something. I do love the character/lunch box type of players we did draft.

[Elevation inc]

And thats fine, he is the Coach. However, im sure Shanahan felt the players he chose were all great too. Again for the record, the first 4 guys we chose are solid players at their respective positions. But, i have a very hard time buying into the idea that somehow NE thought Brace and Butler were enough (while covering two needs) and yet McD felt that only a CB and S (positions that in my opinion were very deep this year) were worthy of drafting so high. Then, we move up to take a TE who although will fit our system just wasnt rated high enough and could of been had with either the second 3rd rounder or a early 4th. And even then thats just being generous. So, my arguement isnt about the DB and S as players, but where they were taken. It really seems to me that McD got overly ansy.

and thats a valid point, but we realized after 14 years just how inept shanny was, 1 draft and the guys havent even hit minicamp yet, i think they and MCD deserve a fair shake, it doesnt play out well and i will be right there screaming for rick dennison interim head coach in week 8......but thats a long ways off and alot can happen.


i see good leaders, who are smart, sound football players with great instincts and work etchic across the baord, i really belive we are headed for a team unity thing instead of this lets just have the best yds offense with poor defensive leaders and players.....and no redzone scoring


but dont get me wrong i scratched my head just as mcuh as the next person when we traded up for smith, the TE and brandstater, but i draftnik from a couch so really what do I know on the grand scale....;)


i also wouldnt be suprised if MCd did get taken a little by some vet GM's but there is a leraning curve for new coachs and GM's so for me i think it comes withy the territory

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Possibly way too emphasis as to where players are drafted - etc. - Rod Smith, UDFA, Karl Mecklenberg - 12th rd - 310th pick overall; TJ - 4th round, TD - 6th round, Shannon Sharpe - 7th Round.

Yesterday, after we drafted the QB, Ed Werner stated he was drafted 25 spots higher than Brady had been, and I can't remember how many spots higher than Cassell.

This is why I take the "wait and see approach".

Also, possibly McD feels some of the current players will fit just fine in the new schemes we will have. Maybe it was not the players, but the scheme, the coaching, etc.

[Nomad]

Possibly way too emphasis as to where players are drafted - etc. - Rod Smith, UDFA, Karl Mecklenberg - 12th rd - 310th pick overall; TJ - 4th round, TD - 6th round, Shannon Sharpe - 7th Round.

Yesterday, after we drafted the QB, Ed Werner stated he was drafted 25 spots higher than Brady had been, and I can't remember how many spots higher than Cassell.

This is why I take the "wait and see approach".

As do I DN!!:salute: There's many examples of great players coming out in the last rounds and UDFA. Reading up on Baker, I hope this comes out true as well.

[Midnight Blue]

Me thinks that it was a spur of the moment decision, that the temptation was too great when he finally did fall that far.

Nonetheless, investing a first round pick on a RB means that those 3 FA's were nothing but a waste of time and money.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Nonetheless, investing a first round pick on a RB means that those 3 FA's were nothing but a waste of time and money.

Or trade bait?

[honz]

Nonetheless, investing a first round pick on a RB means that those 3 FA's were nothing but a waste of time and money.

Signing those RB's gave us flexibility. I doubt McXanders knew they were going to take a RB in the first round when FA started. Besides, as we learned last year, it's quite nice to have backup RBs that can perform when others get injured. So maybe one of them gets cut, but Bronco fans have been clamoring for a top tier RB for years and now we've got one.

[TXBRONC]

My problem is when people try to make their hypotheticals sound like expert analysis. I don't know enough about the players that were drafted since I'm not a college football guy. What I do know as should everyone else on this board taking this draft like it is the end of the world, and this is based on the outcome of every other draft that has taken place, is that we won't know how well we did in this draft for 3 or 4 years. For all we know, Knowshawn will get his ass handed to him day after day in the pros, or he could be the next TD.

I know its the offseason, but people need to learn some patience. We will find out if we are the next Patriots or the next Lions come December.

Well, I know I'm trying to say my opinions are expert analysis and while Dog doesn't need me to defend him I don't think he is either. I think what Dog is trying to say is that if you take this set of picks and put Shanahan name behind it some of the people who are praising it or remaining relatively silent would have been all over Shanahan complaining that he blew it.

I can think of few people that have ripped players just because it Shanahan who had selected them.

[Nomad]

Signing those RB's gave us flexibility. I doubt McXanders knew they were going to take a RB in the first round when FA started. Besides, as we learned last year, it's quite nice to have backup RBs that can perform when others get injured. So maybe one of them gets cut, but Bronco fans have been clamoring for a top tier RB for years and now we've got one.


Wasn't McDaniels plan to use multiple RBs in his schemes? I know it could change with Moreno in the lineup!!

[EMB6903]

biggest pet peve about the draft every year?

the people who complain the second Denver picks up somebody they didnt want. Not waiting to see how these players will perform in the NFL.

[Dortoh]

biggest pet peve about the draft every year?

the people who complain the second Denver picks up somebody they didnt want. Not waiting to see how these players will perform in the NFL.

What about those like myself that like the 1st round hate the 2nd round and find day 2 to have pretty good value and added depth?

I didnt get a single player I wanted but see the draft with some good some bad moves.

Since I like some of the draft can I complain alittle :D

[Nomad]

biggest pet peve about the draft every year?

the people who complain the second Denver picks up somebody they didnt want. Not waiting to see how these players will perform in the NFL.

It's not so bad here when Detroit fans are complaining about having Stafford (reading the opinions on mlive). I have a neighbor across the field from me and he's a big Lions fan and he's pissed about the Lions not getting a olineman. i know it's not BRONCOS but I find it funny!

[Midnight Blue]

Or trade bait?

Would any team give much up in a trade for Jordan, Buckhalter, or Arrington? I don't know....especially since they know we have way more RBs on our roster than we can keep and all they have to do is wait for one to get cut.


Signing those RB's gave us flexibility. I doubt McXanders knew they were going to take a RB in the first round when FA started. Besides, as we learned last year, it's quite nice to have backup RBs that can perform when others get injured. So maybe one of them gets cut, but Bronco fans have been clamoring for a top tier RB for years and now we've got one.

We have way too many signed right now though... some of 'em won't make it through roster cuts.

[bcbronc]

Maybe it's the effect of McDaniels publicly stating several times they had a very small board with few names on it, and wanting to get those guys. He said they had around 100 names on their board (not over 100, but 'around', so who knows what that means. 95? 85?).



Exactly, if we were willing to use next year's first, then why not try and hop into the top 10 to grab Raji or Curry? Grab an impact player, rather than a 'might' hit small, DB.

unfortunately, it's a lot easier to type out the idea than actually get a deal done. who would have made the deal?

3-KC? not likely. division rival.
4-Seattle? with Curry on the board? maybe, I guess. would have upped the contract significantly though.
5-Cle? We'd have had to have beaten the NYJ offer, and considering the coach dynamic, doubt we could have.
6-Cincy? They needed a OT. doubt they had any interest in moving back.
7-Oak? would have made a lot of sense, but doubtful we do a deal with the faid.
8-Jax? doubt they'd move behind Buff with a OT on their board. I mean, they took OT with their first two picks, it was obviously viewed as a priority.
9-GB? well, they obviously liked Raji themselves.

sure, it's easy to say we could have used that #1 to go after Raji. First, we don't know that our coaching staff saw him as a good 34 NT. he could be Gerard Warren V2.0--a big body that's best used as a one-gap penetrator. and secondly, other than dealing with the Raiders, there doesn't look like there was a good trading partner in the top 10.









I guess I'm just not convinced that the tallest, fastest and strongest players are always the best.

shhhhhh......Al Davis almost heard you.


Well, I know I'm trying to say my opinions are expert analysis and while Dog doesn't need me to defend him I don't think he is either. I think what Dog is trying to say is that if you take this set of picks and put Shanahan name behind it some of the people who are praising it or remaining relatively silent would have been all over Shanahan complaining that he blew it.

I can think of few people that have ripped players just because it Shanahan who had selected them.

the Shanny comparison is invalid though. Shanny has a proven track record here that we can examine. Shanny would have had the same second-rate defensive coaches that were already here. and Shanny wouldn't have taken the top RB in the draft while he was neglecting our DL.

at this point McDaniels and Xavier get the benefit of the doubt. if these guys bust, then McX will get more criticism next time he makes moves like these. but if they all hit, then he'll get more leeway in the future.

but yeah, there would definitely be cries of DAFTing all around.

[TXBRONC]

biggest pet peve about the draft every year?

the people who complain the second Denver picks up somebody they didnt want. Not waiting to see how these players will perform in the NFL.

I don't have any complaints about the players themselves, but I do find it courious that he didn't draft but one defensive lineman.

[CoachChaz]

I don't have any complaints about the players themselves, but I do find it courious that he didn't draft but one defensive lineman.

Who should he have drafted? Just curious.

[bcbronc]

I don't have any complaints about the players themselves, but I do find it courious that he didn't draft but one defensive lineman.

we did sign 3 as UDFAs though, as well as another LB.

[TXBRONC]

Who should he have drafted? Just curious.

I said it several time, Ron Brace was available at 37. Dorrell Scott and Terrance Taylor were also available on day two.

[omac]

Well, I know I'm trying to say my opinions are expert analysis and while Dog doesn't need me to defend him I don't think he is either. I think what Dog is trying to say is that if you take this set of picks and put Shanahan name behind it some of the people who are praising it or remaining relatively silent would have been all over Shanahan complaining that he blew it.

I can think of few people that have ripped players just because it Shanahan who had selected them.

And on explaining about the "expert analysis" comment ....

This is a forum where people give their opinions. If posters keep saying that your opinion doesn't mean much, because you're no expert, then why even bother going to a forum? Just write emails Mayock, Kiper, and McShay.

Then posters complain about the existence of forum topics, even though these are about the Broncos and about football. I can understand if personal attacks were the focus on creating the thread, but clearly, it isn't in most cases.

People like to post their opinions on Bronco topics, and at this point, the biggest one is the draft. Other people like to read those opinions too. Most discuss it in a very reasonable manner. That's what this forum is for. I can understand Tned's frustration with posters now saying what should and shouldn't be discussed, even if it's with regards to Broncos football.

So far in this thread, I don't see people parading themselves as experts; I see people giving their opinions, and other people actually responding to those opinions, whether in favor or against.

It would be a pretty boring forum if all that happens is .... "What do you think of taking Moreno with the 12th pick?" ... "I don't know; I'm no expert. I'll just wait for the start of the season to find out, because they know what they're doing."

"What do you think about the Broncos switching to a 3-4 defense?" ... "I don't know; I'm no expert. I'll just wait for the start of the season to find out, because they know what they're doing."

You can probably do that for almost every thread in the forums. :D

[Nomad]

Who should he have drafted? Just curious.

Well I read where GB was in love with Raji (I guess that's why they drafted him) and their 2nd choice for a NG would have been Chris Baker. FWIW!

[bcbronc]

I said it several time, Ron Brace was available at 37. Dorrell Scott and Terrance Taylor were also available on day two.

what do you prefer about those guys compared to Baker? other than it would have cost us a draft pick to acquire those guys?

[TXBRONC]

we did sign 3 as UDFAs though, as well as another LB.

Those guys went undrafted for a reason.

[omac]

I said it several time, Ron Brace was available at 37. Dorrell Scott and Terrance Taylor were also available on day two.

Bellichick drafted Brace, he runs a 3-4 .. the defense we're moving to, and he's a pretty good evaluator of talent, and pretty good with defenses. And he's a player that could help with our DL, specially if Bellichick sees value in him.

[CoachChaz]

I said it several time, Ron Brace was available at 37. Dorrell Scott and Terrance Taylor were also available on day two.

IMO, Brace benefitted from being next to Raji. Seriously...how could he not have? Plus, they will both be better served at DT's...not NG's.

Taylor isnt very big and slipped alot for a reason and Scott is a DE. We have plenty of guys vying for DE spots that are more talented than him.

Picking up Baker as a UDFA was a score. I think that's actually a better pick-up than using a spot on Brace, Taylor or Scott

[bcbronc]

Those guys went undrafted for a reason.

so did James Harrison. Rod Smith. etc.


when picks stop busting and UDFAs stop making an impact, let me know.

[CoachChaz]

Bellichick drafted Brace, he runs a 3-4 .. the defense we're moving to, and he's a pretty good evaluator of talent, and pretty good with defenses. And he's a player that could help with our DL, specially if Bellichick sees value in him.

No guarantee in this theory at all. He also drafted Kareem Brown in 2007 and LeKevin Smith in 2006. Where are those DT's?

[Dortoh]

so did James Harrison. Rod Smith. etc.


when picks stop busting and UDFAs stop making an impact, let me know.

Great does anyone have a % of UDFA that become probowlers???

[TXBRONC]

what do you prefer about those guys compared to Baker? other than it would have cost us a draft pick to acquire those guys?

Brace was rated as one of the better nose tackles in the draft he also has the ideal size to be nose tackle. If Baker is that good then why did he get passed on by every team in the draft including us.

[Thnikkaman]

And on explaining about the "expert analysis" comment ....

This is a forum where people give their opinions. If posters keep saying that your opinion doesn't mean much, because you're no expert, then why even bother going to a forum? Just write emails Mayock, Kiper, and McShay.

Then posters complain about the existence of forum topics, even though these are about the Broncos and about football. I can understand if personal attacks were the focus on creating the thread, but clearly, it isn't in most cases.

People like to post their opinions on Bronco topics, and at this point, the biggest one is the draft. Other people like to read those opinions too. Most discuss it in a very reasonable manner. That's what this forum is for. I can understand Tned's frustration with posters now saying what should and shouldn't be discussed, even if it's with regards to Broncos football.

So far in this thread, I don't see people parading themselves as experts; I see people giving their opinions, and other people actually responding to those opinions, whether in favor or against.

It would be a pretty boring forum if all that happens is .... "What do you think of taking Moreno with the 12th pick?" ... "I don't know; I'm no expert. I'll just wait for the start of the season to find out, because they know what they're doing."

"What do you think about the Broncos switching to a 3-4 defense?" ... "I don't know; I'm no expert. I'll just wait for the start of the season to find out, because they know what they're doing."

You can probably do that for almost every thread in the forums. :D

I'm not asking for that I guess. I think the best action for me is to sit back and be in the audience on this one. :salute:

[broncohead]

Great does anyone have a % of UDFA that become probowlers???

Does anyone have a % a drafted player becomes a probowler? Maybe even by round

[Nomad]

Does anyone have a % a drafted player becomes a probowler? Maybe even by round

I commend anyone willing to do all that research of the drafted vs udfa becoming pro bowlers....how about all-pro as well!

[TXBRONC]

so did James Harrison. Rod Smith. etc.


when picks stop busting and UDFAs stop making an impact, let me know.

You do realize James Harrison was cut by the Steelers before he became the DPYO.

Let me know how many UDFAs actually make it? You're making it sound like UDFAs have an easier making it in the NFL than draft picks. Since you seem to be a great talent evaluator what's the percentage UDFA that make it?

[Dortoh]

Does anyone have a % a drafted player becomes a probowler? Maybe even by round

I'm not doing all that work LMAO but I'm betting the # of players that are in the NFL 2 years after being drafted is just a wee bit higher then those that were brought to camp as camp fodder.

[bcbronc]

Great does anyone have a % of UDFA that become probowlers???


it's pretty low. ;)

but the % of UDFAs that go on to have solid careers is a bit better. still pretty low though.

does anyone have the % of drafted DTs that bust?


Brace was rated as one of the better nose tackles in the draft he also has the ideal size to be nose tackle. If Baker is that good then why did he get passed on by every team in the draft including us.

off field issues. not many question is on-field ability.

read this article, posted by MUG on 'mania.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:PswS1iaegD0J:gnb.scout.com/2/853598.html


an snip:


With one year of eligibility remaining, Baker decided to head for the NFL. After a strong Scouting Combine and pro day — an on-campus workout directed by Packers director of college scouting John Dorsey — Baker is considered a second- or third-round prospect. One insider told Packer Report that the 6-foot-2, 326-pound Baker, not Boston College’s Ron Brace, is the second-best 3-4 nose tackle prospect in this draft. Baker would fill a major need in Green Bay, which needs another nose tackle to rotate with Ryan Pickett.

“I’m hearing a lot of good things,” said Donovan Rose, an 18-year veteran of Hampton’s coaching staff who replaced Holmes as head coach in January. “The time he was here, he was a model guy. He’s a great guy, character guy. He came in and had a great sense of humor and got along with the guys immediately. We had no problem with him. He had a strong GPA and was a model student. A ‘yes sir, no sir’ guy. Worked hard. He was definitely a great, great kid.”

Hampton has sent several players to the NFL, including Rose, who played for the Kansas City Chiefs and Miami Dolphins as well as in the CFL in the 1980s. So, when he said Baker is “without a doubt” an NFL-caliber player, he knows what he’s talking about.

“He’s a strong guy, has great technique,” Rose said. “He ran well at the Combine, and to be that big, he is surprisingly quick. A lot of folks have called on his behalf.”

lots of people on this board would have been thrilled if we took him in the 4th or 5th. who cares how we got him, he's an attempt to address the DL.

[Dortoh]

it's pretty low. ;)

but the % of UDFAs that go on to have solid careers is a bit better. still pretty low though.

does anyone have the % of drafted DTs that bust?



off field issues. not many question is on-field ability.

read this article, posted by MUG on 'mania.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:PswS1iaegD0J:gnb.scout.com/2/853598.html


an snip:



lots of people on this board would have been thrilled if we took him in the 4th or 5th. who cares how we got him, he's an attempt to address the DL.

Now that is a solid arguement in this case. One I wont touch with a 10 foot pole :lol:

[bcbronc]

You do realize James Harrison was cut by the Steelers before he became the DPYO.

Let me know how many UDFAs actually make it? You're making it sound like UDFAs have an easier making it in the NFL than draft picks. Since you seem to be a great talent evaluator what's the percentage UDFA that make it?

no, you're making it sound like UDFAs have no chance of being better than drafted players. clearly that's not the case.

[Nomad]

Also bcbronc the fact he transfer to a small scool like Hampton. Then again I would have like to see Brace without Raji and Raji without Brace, plus they only played in the ACC so where's the competition. It's not like they played in the SEC!! (I kid! I kid!):D

[TXBRONC]

no, you're making it sound like UDFAs have no chance of being better than drafted players. clearly that's not the case.

No I'm not making it sound like UDFA have no chance, that's what you're reading into it which wrong. You're making it sound like they have as good of chance of making it as drafted player. I know its tough enough for drafted players to make it in this League so you'll hard time convincing me that UDFAs have as good shot of making it.

[omac]

No I'm not making it sound like UDFA have no chance, that's what you're reading into it which wrong. You're making it sound like they have as good of chance of making it as drafted player. I know its tough enough for drafted players to make it in this League so you'll hard time convincing me that UDFAs have as good shot of making it.

If UDFAs were better prospects than draftees, then teams would skip the draft and just pick players afterwards who weren't drafted. Of course, that is not the case. Teams value draft picks, and savvy ones like NE find ways to accumulate picks every year. The chance is greater that a drafted player turns out better than a non-drafted player. Though some UDFAs do turn out better than drafted players, they are the exception, not the major consensus.

[omac]

No guarantee in this theory at all. He also drafted Kareem Brown in 2007 and LeKevin Smith in 2006. Where are those DT's?

No guarantees, but ....

1. he did see value in Brace
2. he knows how to build a 3-4 defense
3. our need at DL is greater than our need at CB

Brace could fail, but so could Smith; I'd rather we took a shot with a DL player instead of a CB.

[omac]

I'm not asking for that I guess. I think the best action for me is to sit back and be in the audience on this one. :salute:

Nah, man, I welcome your opinion on the topic too. It's okay to be on opposite sides of a discussion. :cheers:

[Northman]

Or trade bait?

I would actually go with experience. Plus, wasnt Arrington used on ST's at some point. Now whether or not all the backs make it through camp is a whole other arguement. But aside from Moreno and Hillis, i think every other back is there to compete for a spot.

[Northman]

What about those like myself that like the 1st round hate the 2nd round and find day 2 to have pretty good value and added depth?

I didnt get a single player I wanted but see the draft with some good some bad moves.

Since I like some of the draft can I complain alittle :D

Your not allowed to complain or question anything dude dont you know that yet? :lol:

[Northman]

IMO, Brace benefitted from being next to Raji. Seriously...how could he not have? Plus, they will both be better served at DT's...not NG's.

Taylor isnt very big and slipped alot for a reason and Scott is a DE. We have plenty of guys vying for DE spots that are more talented than him.

Picking up Baker as a UDFA was a score. I think that's actually a better pick-up than using a spot on Brace, Taylor or Scott


And i disagree.

[Dortoh]

http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/images/uploads/lateaugust2008/KoolAidMan_Fullpic_2.gif

:)

[Northman]

No guarantee in this theory at all. He also drafted Kareem Brown in 2007 and LeKevin Smith in 2006. Where are those DT's?

And theres no guarantee that Baker would succeed either. But i would of liked to take my chance with Brace more than Baker.

[Northman]

Great does anyone have a % of UDFA that become probowlers???


The way it sounds it must be at least 95%. :lol:

[powderaddict]

My biggest peeve is all the complaining that followed the draft.

I've had clients, co workers, and friends who are all fans of other teasm tell me that they thought the Broncos did very well, and that Knowshon alone transforms the entire offense.

The more I think about it, the better I think the FO did on this draft.

[G_Money]

No I'm not making it sound like UDFA have no chance, that's what you're reading into it which wrong. You're making it sound like they have as good of chance of making it as drafted player. I know its tough enough for drafted players to make it in this League so you'll hard time convincing me that UDFAs have as good shot of making it.

There are more 6,7th and undrafted in the league than there are rounds 3-5, IIRC.

It's just the way the ball bounces. Adam Schefter:

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story?id=09000d5d805e2fdc&template=with-video&confirm=true


As New York Jets general manager Mike Tannenbaum watched the NFL playoffs last weekend, he realized they were an infomercial for undrafted free agents. But even he didn’t comprehend exactly how much.


The All-Undrafted team (note: for playoffs the season before last)

Offense Defense

» QB: Tony Romo DE: Greg White
» DE: Ryan Grant DT: Cullen Jenkins
» RB: Willie Parker DT: Ed Johnson
» WR: Wes Welker DE: Paul Spicer
» WR: Ruvell Martin LB: Antonio Pierce
» TE: Antonio Gates LB: Gary Brackett
» C: Jeff Saturday * LB: James Harrison **
» G: Stephen Neal CB: Nick Harper
» G: Kris Dielman CB: Terry Cousin
» T: Ryan Lilja S: Atari Bigby
» T: Donald Penn S: Brian Russell
» K: Rob Bironas * P: Jeff Feagles

* = AP All-Pro selection
** = Second-team All-Pro

When the playoffs kicked off, the 12 playoff teams had 167 undrafted free agents on their roster.

In this weekend’s divisional playoffs, the eight teams have 106 undrafted free agents on their roster.

Part of this is the salary cap. It has forced teams to dig deeper for depth, and allowed undrafted, unproven players to stick around longer than they ordinarly would.

Evidence: The Redskins, who spend freely on free agents, had 21 undrafted free agents on their roster –- 21 of 53 players -- when the playoffs started, including linebacker London Fletcher.

But more of it might be the fact that undrafted free agents have a built-in desire that other players lack. It shows in their play, as will be on display this weekend.

Undrafteds are easy to sign, easy to cut, and have no built in expectations. You get a UDFA who can gun on special teams? Excellent. When he starts sucking you replace him with another dirt-cheap one.

And you should fill our your roster with them. Kickers, punters, ST players...they all get addressed that way. I'm glad we're bringing in a bunch. Competition is healthy.

For us, anyway - it's worse for the players.

But tons and tons of competition is how Parcells always did it. It makes the no-name guys try harder when they think they can unseat an entitled vet, and it makes the vets try harder to keep their jobs.

Considering some of the complacency we've had around here recently, that can't be a bad thing. I will never forgive Shanahan for that moronic statement in '06 that he flushed draftpicks partially because "we just have too much talent on this team to fit more than 3 or 4 kids on it." Not remarkably, all our vets played fat and lazy and we tanked. Imagine that.

Undrafteds can make teams better. Most definitely.

Hopefully some of ours can make a difference for us.

~G

[broncohead]

My biggest peeve is all the complaining that followed the draft.

I've had clients, co workers, and friends who are all fans of other teasm tell me that they thought the Broncos did very well, and that Knowshon alone transforms the entire offense.

The more I think about it, the better I think the FO did on this draft.

Only time will tell. Everyone has their opinion but imo only having 100 prospects on your board means your unprepared.

[Northman]

Also bcbronc the fact he transfer to a small scool like Hampton. Then again I would have like to see Brace without Raji and Raji without Brace, plus they only played in the ACC so where's the competition. It's not like they played in the SEC!! (I kid! I kid!):D


Hampton is not in the SEC either. :coffee:

[Northman]

My biggest peeve is all the complaining that followed the draft.

I've had clients, co workers, and friends who are all fans of other teasm tell me that they thought the Broncos did very well, and that Knowshon alone transforms the entire offense.

The more I think about it, the better I think the FO did on this draft.


You'll get over it.

[Rick]

Forgive me if Iam wrong, maybe I misunderstood but did not the trade to get Smith be the higher pick of us and the Bears?

Meaning if we or they have a bad season we get to keep that good pick and if one of us have a good season they get that pick?

So unless the unlikely senario happens where we both suck there is no way we are sending them a top 15 pick?

[Dortoh]

Forgive me if Iam wrong, maybe I misunderstood but did not the trade to get Smith be the higher pick of us and the Bears?

Meaning if we or they have a bad season we get to keep that good pick and if one of us have a good season they get that pick?

So unless the unlikely senario happens where we both suck there is no way we are sending them a top 15 pick?

I believe it is our natural pick and we are holding the bears pick.

[Northman]

Forgive me if Iam wrong, maybe I misunderstood but did not the trade to get Smith be the higher pick of us and the Bears?

Meaning if we or they have a bad season we get to keep that good pick and if one of us have a good season they get that pick?

So unless the unlikely senario happens where we both suck there is no way we are sending them a top 15 pick?


Not the way i understood it. I kept hearing that the trade involved the wrong pick for the Broncos and was risky.

[G_Money]

What Dortoh said. It's our pick for next year. Not the higher or the lower, ours - which is LIKELY to be the higher, but still.

~G

[bcbronc]

No I'm not making it sound like UDFA have no chance, that's what you're reading into it which wrong. You're making it sound like they have as good of chance of making it as drafted player. I know its tough enough for drafted players to make it in this League so you'll hard time convincing me that UDFAs have as good shot of making it.

every year UDFAs are found that go on to have successful careers. it's not like its some rare phenomenon that happens once or twice an era. not all of our UDFAs we signed this year are going to see even one NFL game. But probably at least one will have a solid career. maybe he won't be a pro-bowler, but at least a solid starter.

we all agreed we needed a NT prospect. teams do a lot of research and put together "scenerios" for how the draft will fall. how do we know that McDaniels wasn't playing the info he had and took a chance on being able to get Baker after the draft? he did have concers, but he was also rated as high as the SECOND 34 NT on some "experts" board.

you can talk all you want about the long odds of UDFAs, but Baker as the INDIVIDUAL prospect was highly regarded by draftniks. sure, we could have used 37 to take Branch--a good looking prospect in his own rights--but I like the potential of Smith/Baker better than Branch/Dominique Johnson.

[Watchthemiddle]

every year UDFAs are found that go on to have successful careers. it's not like its some rare phenomenon that happens once or twice an era. not all of our UDFAs we signed this year are going to see even one NFL game. But probably at least one will have a solid career. maybe he won't be a pro-bowler, but at least a solid starter.

we all agreed we needed a NT prospect. teams do a lot of research and put together "scenerios" for how the draft will fall. how do we know that McDaniels wasn't playing the info he had and took a chance on being able to get Baker after the draft? he did have concers, but he was also rated as high as the SECOND 34 NT on some "experts" board.

you can talk all you want about the long odds of UDFAs, but Baker as the INDIVIDUAL prospect was highly regarded by draftniks. sure, we could have used 37 to take Branch--a good looking prospect in his own rights--but I like the potential of Smith/Baker better than Branch/Dominique Johnson.

Baker also played a TRUE 3-4 NT in college. One of the few if only in the draft to play that position.

[TXBRONC]

every year UDFAs are found that go on to have successful careers. it's not like its some rare phenomenon that happens once or twice an era. not all of our UDFAs we signed this year are going to see even one NFL game. But probably at least one will have a solid career. maybe he won't be a pro-bowler, but at least a solid starter.

we all agreed we needed a NT prospect. teams do a lot of research and put together "scenerios" for how the draft will fall. how do we know that McDaniels wasn't playing the info he had and took a chance on being able to get Baker after the draft? he did have concers, but he was also rated as high as the SECOND 34 NT on some "experts" board.

you can talk all you want about the long odds of UDFAs, but Baker as the INDIVIDUAL prospect was highly regarded by draftniks. sure, we could have used 37 to take Branch--a good looking prospect in his own rights--but I like the potential of Smith/Baker better than Branch/Dominique Johnson.

You have got to be kidding. You're trying to tell me that McDaniels passed on Baker for 7 rounds just so that he could pick him up as UDFA? Ah no, if McDaniels and for that matter ANY of the other 31 teams were that gung ho on about him they would have drafted him at some point. In other words 32 teams thought so much of him as an INDIVIDUAL prospect that they let him go undrafted.

Brace was first day pick and oh by the way do you know who drafted Brace? The Patriots with 48 pick in the draft. In other words Brace is seen as better INDIVIDUAL prospect than Baker.

He's on our team and I wish him best but right now I wont proclaim him a great prospect just yet.

[Watchthemiddle]

You have got to be kidding. You're trying to tell me that McDaniels passed on Baker for 7 rounds just so that he could pick him up as UDFA? Ah no, if McDaniels and for that matter ANY of the other 31 teams were that gung ho on about him they would have drafted him at some point. In other words 32 teams thought so much of him as an INDIVIDUAL prospect that they let him go undrafted.

Brace was first day pick and oh by the way do you know who drafted Brace? The Patriots with 48 pick in the draft. In other words Brace is seen as better INDIVIDUAL prospect than Baker.

He's on our team and I wish him best but right now I wont proclaim him a great prospect just yet.

This could be why he was passed up...


Baker struggled with off-field incidents at Penn State. He was suspended from the team at the end of the 2007 season and finally dismissed from the Nittany Lions in July 2008 after pleading guilty to two counts of misdemeanor assault and criminal trespass following two fights in 2007. He received two years of probation. Baker showed versatility playing at defensive end in a 3-4 after starting the year at nose tackle for Hampton. He earned first-team All-MEAC honors with 62 tackles, 16.5 tackles for loss and 8.5 sacks. Baker and his family decided it was time to leave the Pirates after his redshirt junior season, but character concerns follow him into the NFL.

With all of the Character issues, it makes me wonder why The Broncos picked him up...:confused:

[MOtorboat]

You have got to be kidding. You're trying to tell me that McDaniels passed on Baker for 7 rounds just so that he could pick him up as UDFA? Ah no, if McDaniels and for that matter ANY of the other 31 teams were that gung ho on about him they would have drafted him at some point. In other words 32 teams thought so much of him as an INDIVIDUAL prospect that they let him go undrafted.

Brace was first day pick and oh by the way do you know who drafted Brace? The Patriots with 48 pick in the draft. In other words Brace is seen as better INDIVIDUAL prospect than Baker.

He's on our team and I wish him best but right now I wont proclaim him a great prospect just yet.

He certainly isn't the Brace-level of prospect (although I think he's going to be a bust), but there is a point to BC's argument. He played the odds that Baker might not get drafted, and he won the gamble. Then he made the signing. It's been said around here today, and it's true, he's the only player in the draft to actually be the nose in a 3-4 scheme.

[MOtorboat]

With all of the Character issues, it makes me wonder why The Broncos picked him up...:confused:

Signed him. There is no risk, except monetarily on this. It's a flier.

I see no problem with it at all. And, as the post before this one states, he's the only nose tackle prospect to have actually played the position in the 3-4 scheme.

[EMB6903]

I don't have any complaints about the players themselves, but I do find it courious that he didn't draft but one defensive lineman.

but why draft a position just because of the need? obviously Mcdaniels didnt think any defensive tackles available were worthy in the draft...


most people in here wanted to draft defensive lineman just because of the need.... not realizing that the FO didnt think there was any worthy players to take at that position... we didnt panic, just chose the best players available on our boards... which I love..And that makes me even more of a Mcdaniels fan (and I hated the guy after the Cutler situation)

He seems to know what hes doing.

[Nomad]

Signed him. There is no risk, except monetarily on this. It's a flier.

I see no problem with it at all. And, as the post before this one states, he's the only nose tackle prospect to have actually played the position in the 3-4 scheme.

I haven't found anything but does Baker have any history of injuries???

[MOtorboat]

I haven't found anything but does Baker have any history of injuries???

Injuries, no, I don't think so. But he has character issues. Two fights he got into. Felony charges filed and he was dismissed from Penn State, which is why he ended up at Hampton.

[Nomad]

Injuries, no, I don't think so. But he has character issues. Two fights he got into. Felony charges filed and he was dismissed from Penn State, which is why he ended up at Hampton.

I know about the character thing! Seeing Brace's name thrown around I know scouts have concerns about his durability because of his back problems. Anyway, it's nice to know Baker has no injury history and hopefully he comes in hungry to prove he is one of the best NG.

[TXBRONC]

but why draft a position just because of the need? obviously Mcdaniels didnt think any defensive tackles available were worthy in the draft...


most people in here wanted to draft defensive lineman just because of the need.... not realizing that the FO didnt think there was any worthy players to take at that position... we didnt panic, just chose the best players available on our boards... which I love..And that makes me even more of a Mcdaniels fan (and I hated the guy after the Cutler situation)

He seems to know what hes doing.

Interesting the very nose tackle that we passed up on McDaniels former boss took 11 picks later. Maybe you're not aware of this if you don't have legitimate nose tackle you're going have hard time running a 3-4 defense.

[MOtorboat]

Interesting the very nose tackle that we passed up on McDaniels former boss took 11 picks later. Maybe you're not aware of this if you don't legitimate nose tackle you're going have hard time running a 3-4 defense.

A.) He was 4-3 defensive tackle in college, so it's not like he was "legitimate." The only real ounce of "evidence" that he can be effective in the 3-4 is because of his size.

B.) He was the second player in a unit drafted. There is a history of those players being huge busts. I'm glad Denver stayed away from him.

[dogfish]

A.) He was 4-3 defensive tackle in college, so it's not like he was "legitimate." The only real ounce of "evidence" that he can be effective in the 3-4 is because of his size.

B.) He was the second player in a unit drafted. There is a history of those players being huge busts. I'm glad Denver stayed away from him.


well, in all fairness the vast majority of guys drafted to play the 3-4 front seven played in a 4-3 in college. . .


scouts' reports that brace performed well in one-on-one drills at the senior bowl relieved some of the concerns about him benefitting from playing next to raji, although that obviously doesn't eliminate them. . . still, the highly competent new england staff apparently wasn't worried enough about it to pass on him. . . being the "second guy" has indeed been prblematic in the past, but it's not necessarily the kis of death-- branden albert was the second guy to both d'brickashaw ferguson and eugene monroe, and he showed signs of being a very good pro before he got hurt last year. . . . we'll see how brace turns out. . .

[Elevation inc]

I don't have any complaints about the players themselves, but I do find it courious that he didn't draft but one defensive lineman.

i actually really belive that speaks for the lack of quality of players he felt could fit what he wanted to do. I belive we just didnt feel this DL class to be worth a damn.

many were mad we didnt draft a DT till late last year but dorsey and ellis were mediocre, and the only late pick worth a damn was marcus harrison out of arkansa, yet evryone was all over okam, laws, dre moore, kentwan balmer. I will leave it to a great DL coach in nunnely he probally was right there working out the DL prospects this year and my guess is ayers is the one who proved the bst fit for what we want to do.....one thing i have seen is we are very hands on with who we draft.

shanny was never like that.

what i did like most about MCD is that he takes his character risks and pet projects in UDFA instead of first day picks like shanny did.

[Midnight Blue]

i actually really belive that speaks for the lack of quality of players he felt could fit what he wanted to do. I belive we just didnt feel this DL class to be worth a damn.

many were mad we didnt draft a DT till late last year but dorsey and ellis were mediocre, and the only late pick worth a damn was marcus harrison out of arkansa, yet evryone was all over okam, laws, dre moore, kentwan balmer. I will leave it to a great DL coach in nunnely he probally was right there working out the DL prospects this year and my guess is ayers is the one who proved the bst fit for what we want to do.....one thing i have seen is we are very hands on with who we draft.

shanny was never like that.

what i did like most about MCD is that he takes his character risks and pet projects in UDFA instead of first day picks like shanny did.

Doesn't Ayers have an aggravated assault charge (bargained down to a lesser charge, but it still resulted in a suspension while he was in college) in his past?

[dogfish]

Doesn't Ayers have an aggravated assault charge (bargained down to a lesser charge, but it still resulted in a suspension while he was in college) in his past?

yes-- although it was for an on-campus fight with some frat guys, so probably not a huge deal. . . . vols coach phil fulmer says that ayers was arrogant and resistant to coaching when he first got to tennessee. . . however, he reportedly matured quite a bit over the past year or so, and last year he was a well-respected team captain, described as a hard worker and vocal leader on the field. . . so, hopefully that stuff is behind him. . . .

[Hawgdriver]

at one point I found a chart that showed pro-bowl frequency by round selected, I'm looking for it now. other things I've found on the way:

Cinci Bengals 1st round selections: 51 pro-bowlers: 7


So for those three draft years (I don’t go any more recent, as those drafts aren’t yet fully baked), players drafted in round four or later comprised 35% of Pro Bowlers (22 of 63). In fact, round four was more prolific than round 3 (10 players versus 6 players).

2004 Pro Bowl Players:
Round 1: 14
Round 2: 2
Round 3: 4
TOTAL: 18

Round 4: 2
Round 5: 1 (our own Michael Turner)
Round 6: 1
Round 7: 1
Undrafted: 3
TOTAL: 8

2005 Pro Bowl Players:
Round 1: 7
Round 2: 4
Round 3: 2
TOTAL: 13

Round 4: 2
Round 5: 1
Round 6: 1
Round 7: 1
Undrafted: 3
TOTAL: 8

2006 Pro Bowl Players:
Round 1: 7
Round 2: 3
Round 3: 0
TOTAL: 10

Round 4: 4
Round 5: 0
Round 6: 1
Round 7: 1
Undrafted: 0
TOTAL: 6

For most positions the frequency of starters/pro-bowlers by round selected is very high in the first round (linemen) or first and second round (skill players) and then stays flat from rounds three thru UDFA. Obviously UDFA consists of another 6-10 rounds if you called them "rounds" because a team will scoop up about that many players. Here is were I got this from:

http://www.nflsportchannel.com/news/how-draft-round-affects-an-offensive-and-defensive-linemans-career-performance/ (http://www.nflsportchannel.com/news/how-draft-round-affects-an-offensive-and-defensive-linemans-career-performance/)

great quote:


2. After the third round, every running back is the same. Seriously! Either draft a back in the first three rounds, or wait until rounds six and seven to draft your running back.


Bottom line:

There is virtually no difference in how likely a player will become a starter (or pro-bowler) from round 4 thru 7. The vast majority of starters/pro-bowlers are found in the first three rounds, especially the first two.

Edit: however, as you can see from the 2004-2007 numbers, 10% of the pro-bowlers were not selected in the draft.

[Midnight Blue]

yes-- although it was for an on-campus fight with some frat guys, so probably not a huge deal. . . . vols coach phil fulmer says that ayers was arrogant and resistant to coaching when he first got to tennessee. . . however, he reportedly matured quite a bit over the past year or so, and last year he was a well-respected team captain, described as a hard worker and vocal leader on the field. . . so, hopefully that stuff is behind him. . . .

Hopefully it is...but a criminal record does = a possible character risk...emphasis on the word " possible" to ensure that my statement's intent is not misconstrued to have the same meaning as if the word were omitted in the post. One unfortunate incident does not equal a certainty of problems but it does show that "perhaps" he "might" have an anger management issue.

[Elevation inc]

Doesn't Ayers have an aggravated assault charge (bargained down to a lesser charge, but it still resulted in a suspension while he was in college) in his past?

yeah but unlike most of shannys picks he actually became a team captain and leader after learning from his mistakes. doesnt excuse him, but he is human. Shanny would draft charcter concern guys who were seniors...this isnt the case here. this guy was young and stupid then played his last 2 years with heart and maturity and was promoted to team capatin as a senior that shows a learning process. and that kind of reslove and maturity is a big plus in the NFL.


if you can learn from your mistakes in life, you can learn from mistakes on a field, sometimes shanny couldnt put the 2 together and get it right.

[elsid13]

IMO, Brace benefitted from being next to Raji. Seriously...how could he not have? Plus, they will both be better served at DT's...not NG's.

Taylor isnt very big and slipped alot for a reason and Scott is a DE. We have plenty of guys vying for DE spots that are more talented than him.

Picking up Baker as a UDFA was a score. I think that's actually a better pick-up than using a spot on Brace, Taylor or Scott

Brace actually played better at DT when Raji was suspend. He is solid tackle that will hold the point of attack, he won't be a pass rushing threat, but for NT we don't want that. Scott is vastly underrated and has the size to play NT, he wouldn't be moved to DE position.

And Baker past and his off the field actions makes Baker a likely problem more a likely solution.

[TXBRONC]

A.) He was 4-3 defensive tackle in college, so it's not like he was "legitimate." The only real ounce of "evidence" that he can be effective in the 3-4 is because of his size.

B.) He was the second player in a unit drafted. There is a history of those players being huge busts. I'm glad Denver stayed away from him.

Most defensive tackles coming out of college haven't played in a 3-4. Also Brace had a solid showing at Senior Bowl I guess that's why the Patriots took him the second round.

[Nomad]

Hopefully it is...but a criminal record does = a possible character risk...emphasis on the word " possible" to ensure that my statement's intent is not misconstrued to have the same meaning as if the word were omitted in the post. One unfortunate incident does not equal a certainty of problems but it does show that "perhaps" he "might" have an anger management issue.


Not when it comes to frat boys.....I give Ayers a free pass on that on!;)

[CoachChaz]

Brace actually played better at DT when Raji was suspend. He is solid tackle that will hold the point of attack, he won't be a pass rushing threat, but for NT we don't want that. Scott is vastly underrated and has the size to play NT, he wouldn't be moved to DE position.

And Baker past and his off the field actions makes Baker a likely problem more a likely solution.

Excellent argument for those that simply want to hate on the draft regardless of reason.

[Dirk]

Not when it comes to frat boys.....I give Ayers a free pass on that on!;)


I agree. I know all too well the "friction" between Jocks vs Preps vs Nerds vs ETC.

It was one of those things that a lot of kids go through in high school and college. Afterwhich, no more incidents so it's a wash IMO.

[sacmar]

...that they don't replay the reactions to the raider picks more. By the time i stop laughing it's our turn to pick again. Makes the draft go by faster.